Is Zack Snyder Right for "The Watchmen"?

[ojdidit92]

what are your thoughts on v for vendetta, since v is kind of the opposite of rorschach.

[nathannin123]

I personally think that the The Watchmen couldn't be in better hands. I love what he did both Dawn of the Dead as well as 300. I honestly believe 10 years from now he'll be one of the most renowned directors in Hollywood. That's right. I said it!

[TheLogicJunkie]

I'm already starting to hear that the film is great. And my main assertion is that most of the quality of a film lies, yes, in the script but, just as importantly, in casting the people with the right psychologies in the roles.

[diknigger]

i think the movie will be great and people who dislike zack snyder should give him a chance with this film.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Agreed.

[MusicVideoKing23]

Zack Snyder will destroy this movie. He is focusing too much on trying to make the movie cool. That is the absolute wrong way to go about making watchmen.

[TheLogicJunkie]

I've seen the preview of it, and I'm not sure what to make of it. I'll have to wait and see how the casting worked because, for me, it's all about the casting... Either someone is the role, or they're not. And if they're not, it kills the whole dynamic for me, and I no longer care.

[toadenk]

did you see the tralor yet?

i just finished the book and wow just wow

[TheLogicJunkie]

Yeah, I saw it. Superficially, it looks good, but I'm not sure how the acting will be. It will only come off properly if the casting was perfect, and the actors chosen for the specific roles have sides of themselves that match the characters as perfectly as possible.

The graphic novel was amazing... it changed my entire worldview: I think it made me and everyone who truly read it that much more precocious -- yet paranoid -- about life.

[TheLogicJunkie]

I do wish, however, that they hadn't mucked around with certain things, like Adrian Veidt's mask... Also, I'm not sure I'm wild about the actor cast as Veidt. He seems too young at heart, and not cold-bloodedly new-age enough.

What's more -- and this may likely come as a shock -- I think that Dr. Manhattan should've been cast with Christian Bale, rather than Batman. I just have never considered him "Batman" enough in temperament.

[TheLogicJunkie]

That last sentence didn't make sense. What I meant to say is that I think Christian Bale would've made a much better Dr. Manhattan than a Batman.

Bale's native personality is, to me, much more self-denying, repressed, and masochistic than Batman/Bruce Wayne requires, although Bale does meet the requirements of being cerebral enough.

But, on Dr. Manhattan, those qualities are precisely what fit.

[loveupskirts]

itll be goddamn shit, it will be a shallow hollow michael bay stylee film. he is a clone in a long line of joel silver wannabees. which is: screaming rock music, flashy camera work, big bangs and gunfire and precious little intelligence or soul. zack snyder you are a douchebag- good luck with wiping your ass on one of the greatest comic books ever written you unbelievable asswipe.

[nathannin123]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. This film with the exception of a couple of other high profile directors couldn't be in better hands.

[TheLogicJunkie]

But I think Snyder will do it right.

[AcidJini]

I think you should check out Zack Snyder's Comic Con interview from a few days ago. He describes Watchmen by saying: "It's like 300 for your brain." 300 was really not as deep as Watchmen.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Thanks; I will.

I honestly will have to wait to see what Snyder produces as a final product, before I can really know if he's capable of pulling it off.

Until then, it's like betting on a horse race... it's exciting. You try to look at as many variables as you can, and try to figure out which ones are important and telling as to what the final outcome will be.

I might be completely mis-reading Snyder's abilities here and, if I am, I'll openly acknowledge my wrongness after seeing the film.

[talkbackworld]

Everyone has a right to their opinion, but I disagree with literally everything you said in this video. No space to go into detail why. Suffice to say I am APPALLED that you would compare a shallow work like 300 to Watchmen. To then attack Moore and support Snydes who was hired TO MAKE THE STUDIO MORE MONEY, is unreal. You got ALL that depth you laid out from 300 then thought Watchmen was more shallow? Honestly, some of the stuff said in this video are disgraceful. Sorry.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Normally I respond to opposing opinions by saying "fair enough", but I won't do that in your case, because I don't think you've been fair at all.

You have plenty of space to go into detail why. There is no law that says you can't leave a connected string of separate reply comments; I do it all the time.

For example, 1) What's wrong with making money, so long as the customer gets what he/she paid for?

2) Just because Watchmen was much longer and more complicated than 300, that doesn't...

[TheLogicJunkie]

Just because Watchmen weaved an elegant and philosophically thorough plot with characters of equal caliber, that doesn't mean that, ultimately, its message was valid or even courageous.

Watchmen contained two of my all-time favorite characters in three of my all-time favorite scenes in all of fiction,

1) Dr. Manhattan's origin chapter,

2) Rorschach's origin chapter,

3) Jon's rehuman awakening on Mars, as Laurie realizes the true identity of her father.

With all that said, the outcome...

[TheLogicJunkie]

...the outcome of the series was depressing beyond imagining, what with the "final solution" implemented by you-know-who.

Now, perhaps this is a failing within me, to appreciate a mindset which says that "acceptable losses", such as the people of New York, is nothing to be depressed about.

But all that changed with 9/11. When I saw and heard all those people crying and begging and burning alive in those towers and in those planes, I swore I would never again permit myself to sanction...

[TheLogicJunkie]

...permit myself to sanction "Watchmen-style" solutions, ever again. And I have every indication that I am just one amongst millions who now believe that 9/11 was very possibly a "Watchmen-style" solution.

When I first read the end of issue #12, I felt that Rorschach was a shallow, moralizing jerk for his unwillingness to see the "beauty" in the "final solution". But now?

[TheLogicJunkie]

Now, after experiencing the horrifying, soul-snuffing reality of such grand, Draconian "solutions" as 9/11 for myself, I can never again indulge in such cold-blooded and seemingly glorious, new age notions put into practice.

When I go back now and see Rorschach's final, furious moments in the snow, as he refuses to have any part of this "better" world, I find myself standing right there beside him, in my heart.

This is why I call Watchmen shallow, and 300 courageous. Because it's true.

[talkbackworld]

You want a real debate on this? Join the talkback website. You'll have ALL the debate you can handle on this issue. BELIEVE me.

[TheLogicJunkie]

I see. If it doesn't happen on your website, it's not a "real" debate.

Thank you, but I respectfully decline that invitation.

[talkbackworld]

I'll do this once and not get into a big huge thing on a very unwieldy system simply because you MUST have the debate on a comment board. Reasons why Snydes is WRONG for Watchmen,

1. The dawn of the dead movie was an above average actioner gore and slasher fest. For the genre it was good enough, but it only showed a director that was tuned into today's pop culture and could deliver something 'cool.' 300 came out of that success.

[TheLogicJunkie]

I never saw "Dawn of the Dead", so I'll just have to take your word on that, but point taken.

[talkbackworld]

By the way the fact you have to approve every comment on this video says a hell of a lot about your willingness for open dialogue. What on EARTH are you afraid of? Let people comment freely on the video for goodness sake, if you believe you have a real point. Wow. Anyway 2. 300 was a shallow comic about a real historic event, but watered it down for entertainment. Even Miller ADMITTED that is what he did. He left a lot out to make it fun, but hinted at things. THE WRITER HIMSELF SAID THIS.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Actually, I don't have my settings quite that strict... Whenever I post a new video, I always set it where my designated friends can add automatically, but people who I don't already know and trust, I have to pre-approve their comments.

This allows me to at least keep things fair, because a lot of people like to pop in and shoot you in the throat from the grassy knoll.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Okay, but since Snyder actually followed Miller's comic with incredible fidelity to almost the exact same wording and imagery, does that make SNYDER shallow? I mean, it's not like he altered Miller's story in any way... All he did was add to it.

If the shallowness and historical inaccuracy comes from anywhere, it comes from Miller, not Snyder, who did an amazingly faithful job of re-creation.

[talkbackworld]

Listen, the fact he delivered a page for page of 300 (which he didn't by the way, he changed a lot for the worse, but that is another story) does not qualify him for dense material. The problem is that you don't even see Watchmen as dense even though the Times ALL TIME BEST list says IT IS one of the greatest American Novels of our time. Hmmm, but YOU say 300 is equal to it. I mean what are you talking about? That there makes anything I say mute, because you don't even acknowledge the merit.

[TheLogicJunkie]

What did he change? I didn't see any changes, just additions, which doesn't mean he actually removed anything... unless I missed something, because I read the graphic novel back in 1999, if I recall.

Now, as far as Time Magazine goes, I do think it was the best comic ever written, but I do think that the ultimate end message was contemptible... that's all, but I think it's a lot.

And I HAVE acknowledged Watchmen's merits, at length. But I'm also pointing out its contemptibility.

[talkbackworld]

3. Snydes adapting 300 was not a taxing endeavor as it was so thin, Snydes himself said they had to make up some elements not in the comic in order to flesh it out for a film. Why would he do that if the comic was so deep? and why is so much of the history involved with the spartans MISSING from the film. History that actually affects the story? You do realise the Persians were not mindless amoral people. How the hell do you think their society got so developed? Think about it, read the history

[TheLogicJunkie]

You do realize his name is "Snyder", and not "Snydes", right?

Anyhow, it seems as though your indictments of Snyder's "300" being shallow have more to do with Miller's historical inaccuracy than with Snyder's ineptitude... All Snyder was doing, was relaying the look and feel of Miller's comic with astounding fidelity, just as it was.

If anything, he directed with astounding accuracy and faithfulness to every aspect of Miller's story. How does that possibly make him a lousy director?

[talkbackworld]

We call him Snydes at talkback. 300 was already shaky as a comic. Snydes made it overtly racist. Persians as mindless freaks with beasts and demons in tow? Hordes of them defeated by a band of white 'democratic' warriors. Persians as the dark mystics who come in waves like a plague to vanquish? The comic never even made it that way. The queen character was 80% made up and irrelevant. The focus on the muscles and stuff turned it into a no1 female pinup film. 300 a fave among women? Snydes, wow.

[TheLogicJunkie]

There is a website at sincity. kryspin. net that has a gallery that shows the scene-by-scene translation of the "300" comic to the film. And from this, it looks to me like Snyder kept everything racially identical to the comic, except for the Persian messenger who Leonidas kicked into the pit.

In the comic, the messenger was a long-haired North African or dark Saudi Arab, whereas in the film, he was a darker black East African, it seems.

Aside from that, I'm not seeing racial alteration...

[TheLogicJunkie]

But, yeah, a "queen" character was added. You're right about that... I guess it deflects the usual neurotic Hollywood homophobia about what were actually NAKED muscle dudes in the comic. And they created a homeland dramatic sub-plot that, honestly, I don't think took away from the story... if anything, I think it furthered Miller's idea.

But, again, it looks to me like who you really have a problem with is Miller, and not Snyder so much...

[TheLogicJunkie]

The only real culpability I see with Snyder here, might be in his decision to have anything to do with a script that some might find racist.

However, is it not true that sometimes empires of different race invade other cultures? I mean, Genghis Khan was Mongolian, and he rode all across Asia, massacring everyone... including the Islamic empire of the region, and most of them were Arab, to my knowledge.

So, racially-different wars do happen... Is it racism to convey that?

[TheLogicJunkie]

Granted, there may not be as much visual difference in appearance between Spartan Greeks and Persians but, then again, Snyder's casting for characters like Leonidas, in particular, bore an uncanny resemblance to how Leonidas looked in the comics.

I'd say that about the only thing Snyder could've done would've been to have refused to do the adaptation at all... but, having done it in the end, I think he did it perfectly, for what it was.

[wolfgar45]

wait, you're the one who gives too much emphasis about the races, the color of they're skin or how they look so then...

you're the racist.

all i saw was an small army of protagonist and a very huge army of antagonists.

[TheLogicJunkie]

*sigh* I can't argue with that kind of reasoning, such as it is.

All I'm saying is that Zach Snyder made Frank Miller's "300" look so much like Miller's comic book, it was astonishing, even down to the racial composition of the armies.

Miller's the one who made the racial assignments in the original story. Snyder just reproduced it, and I've pointed it out. If you want to blame the messenger, I can't stop you, but you'd be at least halfway fair to chant "racism" at Miller, not me.

[wolfgar45]

oh, i was replying talkbackworld.

this should have appeared...

those words were not for you.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Oh, okay. Should I delete the comment, and you can retype it as a reply directly to him, and he gets a notification of it?

If that's the case, I won't delete your comment until I see that you've reposted it as a reply to him, under his comment.

[wolfgar45]

wait, you're the one who gives too much emphasis about the races, the color of they're skin or how they look so then...

you're the racist.

all i saw was an small army of protagonist and a very huge army of antagonists.

[TheLogicJunkie]

No, no... You have to hit "reply" on THEIR comment, to the right of it, where the "thumbs up" symbols are.

You don't post your comment to a specific person by posting it in the box on the bottom... because that just makes it a general comment directed at the video owner, not the specific commenter.

[wolfgar45]

i did!

after i click'd "post comment"

it mentioned "pending comment approval".

can you try it?

[TheLogicJunkie]

Oh; you're trying to comment to "talkbackworld". Are you sure you hit "reply" on THEIR comment, and not mine? If you did and it didn't work, I have no answers and don't know how to fix that. Sorry.

[Indubitably14]

...Yeah 300, an action dominated film, is the equivalent of Watchmen, a dialogue dominated graphic novel.

Zack Snyder is SO unqualified to adapt this graphic novel, that anyone who doesnt realize this, doesnt matter to me, because they are just looking for a dumb movie to be made anyway.

[TheLogicJunkie]

You'd have to actually watch my commentary to understand my rationale.

[enjoypolydor]

I think the costumes are fine. I believe the reason they look like they're from 2025 is because they didn't want viewers of this age to lose respect for the characters.

As for my opinion, I like Niteowl and Ozzy's flim costumes. They close enough.

[cha5]

Nite-Owl and Ozzys costumes are for me the worst, All we need on Nite-Owl's costume are rubber nipples and I believe he's supposed to have a paunch, Ozymandias has a massive rubber codpiece, IMHO Rorschach's costume works best the others? Too much rubber.

[fei2003]

What do u think of the costumes?

[TheLogicJunkie]

Well, with the exception of Rorschach, they only slightly resemble the comic-book versions.

However, I will have to see how Snyder's costumes translate on screen. I will have to see how it fits in with the story.

[fei2003]

I hear ya. But my main beef with some of the costumes is that Snydes is staying in 1985. Nite owls and the comedians costume look like something from 2025.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Oh, you mean the way the costumes are supposed to be from 1985, but they look like they're from 2025? Good point...

[fei2003]

300 was deep? ..... NOoooooo

The queen killed a man... and repeated what he said to her. and she said that she killed him because he said x y z. They dont know whether he said it or not......

[TheLogicJunkie]

Then let me clarify what I meant since, apparently, my use of this word "deep" has been causing some problems...

... The movie, while by no means vague, deliberately confusing, or culturally effete, as is so often connoted with "deep", is stark and profound in its simplicity and urgency of meaning.

In this age where we are all urged to be boot-licking toadies to whatever self-righteous bullies come along, "300" was, for lack of a better word "deep", because it was deep with importance.

[fei2003]

hmmm I disagree with your meaning of deep. with respect though.

Snyder is good at directing action. Just like in 300 u r going to see a scene that looks exactly frame for frame how it is in the comic book watchmen. Thats what he's good at.I'll give him that. But anytime a scene involving acting is involved it just falls apart. I believe snyder is not approaching watchmen the way it needs to be approached.

But hey... what do I know.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Fair enough... Perhaps "tonic" or "potent" would be a more accurate word for what I mean than "deep".

As far as Watchmen goes, do you think the fault is in how he is orchestrating the acting? Is he having it be too pantomime or something?

What sorts of things have you heard about the acting?

[fei2003]

Well. I mean for me I just take a look at his cast. I mean harold and kumar girl as the second silk spectre? Its all on the acting. This is why I say Snydes is missing the point of watchmen. When watching the journals it seems as if he is too focused on the look of watchmen. Hence Dave gibbons visiting the set. The art in watchmen is so standard nothing spectacular when u open the book. Its the story that needs to be intact.

[TheLogicJunkie]

Well, I don't think that Alan Moore's not appearing on the set of Watchmen is for lack of Snyder's trying... In case you hadn't noticed, Moore has rabidly denounced every rendition of his works ever put on screen. So, at some point, it seems rational that a director would no longer even try, or, if he's tried, unbeknownst to us, that he would fail utterly getting Moore's cooperation.

[fei2003]

hahaha. True Very true. Moore is like nope staying away from all of these hollywood films.

[hulkcrawler]

before the end, and the ending would not have swayed that. The sophistication and depth of The Watchmen lies in its unparalleled psychological development of the characters throughout the story and its overwhelming achievement of taking every small detail and connecting them. There is nothing insignificant and nothing that can be overlooked without compromising its entirety. Watchmen definitely encompasses more than just one single theme, and I feel the outcome is less relevant than some. fin

[TheLogicJunkie]

Wow. Now THAT is some kind of reply.

And you're right... the journey of the Watchmen series was unparalleled. My two favorite parts were the final scene on Mars with Laurie, where he ends with "dry your eyes, and let's go home". It was pure cosmic poetry.

In stark contrast to that was the prison psychologist scene where Rorschach retells his "critical transformation" story.

Anyhow, I'd like to focus on the quality of your writing, which is phenomenal. You really ought to...

[TheLogicJunkie]

...be doing print reviews. Everybody spouts off about liking this or that, but I almost never see anyone so meticulously craft an analysis such as what you've just posted here.

Finally, I want to say that I wasn't aware that Snyder was going to be significantly changing the story. I understood that he couldn't film in Antarctica or Mars (heh), but I didn't think he'd have to seriously alter the script.

Alan Moore won't like it, of course. But I still want to see if it's good.

[hulkcrawler]

the script will largely deviate from the original story. And, in my opinion, the task of perfectly bringing the undeniable complexity of Watchmen unscathed to the big screen is... nigh impossible. The difference in mediums is enough to inhibit that.

Delving into Watchmen as a story and comparing it's "deepness" to 300... I felt that you focused too solely on the ending of Watchmen, rather than the journey (at least in your vid.) In all honesty, my passion and awe was birthed far (continued)

[ericstephen123]

wasnt it? lol idk

[hulkcrawler]

Unlike some, I was quite excited upon hearing that the director of 300 was taking on Watchmen. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the meticulous loyalty to the series that the movie held. However, I feel that the issue of maintaining the loyalty to the Watchmen series lies in majority with the script. Snyder will mold and shape his resources and material to the pinnacle of its potential, I'm sure, but if you've read up on the production of Watchmen, they've already announced that (continued)

[ericstephen123]

300 was based off a comic book lol.

[toadenk]

i never read the watchmen so i guess i don't have much of an opion on this, neither have i read teh 300 comic book wich the movie was based off of so bascally the only thing i can say is I wonder if Uatu going to make an apernce,book speaking of comics hey free comic book day sat

[TheLogicJunkie]

Yeah... if you ever get a chance, take a look at the 300 graphic novel. It will freak you out, just how loyal Snyder was to the story... he didn't do like a lot of Hollywood egomaniacs, and 1) not know the source material, but pretend to, and/or 2) just start getting excessively creative with stories and characters when he has no right to...

[TheLogicJunkie]

hahahahaha... I just remembered who "Uatu" is.

No, that would be the "Watch-er"... not the "Watch-men".

Good one.

[C2V3N]

I think zack can pull it!

[TheLogicJunkie]

Yep; I think so, too.