Speculation on the Two Witnesses of Revelation: A Discussion with Bingolly1

[orionifo]

they could be two lowly men whom God decides to make them like "Moses, Elijah and Enoch," they dont have to be the literal Moses or Elijah. like with John the Baptist who came in the spirit of Elijah.

[TheIAMINU]

the age of Gemini. (its a matter of time)

[theflarpus]

Something to think about =)

[themanningsjdsjjj]

Read Isaiah 43. It clearly tells you who they are.

[theflarpus]

@themanningsjdsjjj I read Isaiah 43 and it is still unclear to me. It seemed to suggest Israel was the wittness. Would like to hear your thinking on this.

[themanningsjdsjjj]

@theflarpus

Isaiah 43 says: O' Jacob and O' Israel.

O' Jacob refers to Jacob's line or Joseph's 2 sons that were given Jacob's Blessing: Ephraim and Manasseh in Genesis 48 (also see Hebrews 11:21). Their descendants (the 10 Northern Tribes) have that blessing today. They are the UK (Ephraim) and USA (Manasseh) and a few other Sons of Isaac (Saxons;Romans 9:7) countries. So the 2 olive trees are the 2 houses of Israel; not 2 men

O' Israel refers to the 2 Southern Tribes in the land of Israel.

[themanningsjdsjjj]

@theflarpus

Now that you know who the two witnesses are, would you like to know what the rest of that passage in Revelation is saying about what happens to them? And just to set the record straight, the only prophet we are promised for these end times is EliJAH. I know, everyone will tell you that was John the Baptist. But read Malachi very clearly about when EliJAH is sent and what he must do. And ask did John B. do that? Remember, it says Elias. John could easily been Elisha and not Elijah.

[themanningsjdsjjj]

@theflarpus

Follow me on this: It is well hidden.

So Elisha took up the mantle from Elijah at the Jordan after Elijah went to heaven.

The mantle was then returned from Elisha back to Christ at the river Jordan: Mat.3:14 But John (Elias - Elisha - 17:12-13) forbad him, saying, I have need to to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.

2 Kings 2:11-13;Matthew 3:13-16;

[themanningsjdsjjj]

@theflarpus

And now the FINAL reason to watch for EliJAH:

So the mantle was given from Elijah to Elisha and then back to

Christ/Elijah from Elisha/John the Baptist.

Since we know that only Elijah and Christ were taken up into heaven, the only way for the following words of Christ to be true is if Christ and Elijah ARE THE SAME SPIRIT:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down

from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.

[themanningsjdsjjj]

@theflarpus

Which should help resolve Christ's Second Coming and the following verse: Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the "I AM".

Ponder that for a while. I can provide much more evidence if you need it.

[CynthiaEliav]

Ok, everyone says, Moses, Elijah..but, I do believe it is any man or woman with the spirit of God as the spirit of God was upon both of these prophets and also Elijah, all of us, John the Baptist..so, do not start looking for these two.

[mtzion211]

@CynthiaEliav Thank you for posting. I do not believe that the two witnesses are two literal people either. I believe they represent the law and the prophets so on that point we may differ. That is ok too.....:) GB

[cbasallie]

Moses delivered the written WORD/LAW on a tabernacle. Now it is written on the table of our hearts and lives in the church/body of Christ

Didn't Elijah drop his cloak on Elisha and give him his 2 fold blessing. His Spirit? The prophets were moved by the Spirit.

The WORD/SPIRIT is almost the same as LAW/PROPHETS

Also 1John chap 5 tells us about the HEAVENLY WITNESS and the EARTHLY WITNESS.

Word is mentioned as part of the triune in heaven

Spirit is mentiones as part of the triune in earth

[cbasallie]

@cbasallie

Actually Psalm 119 make the WORD of God interchangeable with statutes, judgments, testimonies, precepts, commandments (aka LAWS). And the

Peter 1: 21...holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So the PROPHETS' words and the SPIRIT are connected.

Hmmm????

All very interesting

[curtainedgloom]

I believe you are absolutely right...Moses a priest and Elijah a prophet...you say they are "figuratively" Moses and Elijah....the storis in the Bible and the characters in the Bible are prototypes or archetypes so to speak...they are examples "ensamples".....please look into this Arnold Murray (shepherdschapel) and Bob Dylan...its just common sense....nobody appeared to me in a dream...God didnt tell me in a dark corner....they just fit All the descriptions...please research it

[curtainedgloom]

THE TWO WITNESSES ARE BOB DYLAN AND ARNOLD MURRAY...power is a greek word meaning 'fame' 'in front of and audience' 'INFLUENCE' and even 'poet'....they are dressed in sackcloth which simply means MOHAIR in greek which is a material they make suits out of MUCH like the suit jackets worn by ARNOLD MURRAY (MOSES) AND BOB DYLAN (ELIJAH)....great wonders is simply great ABILITY fire out of the mouth is SPEAKING WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT....which they do....they were MEN just like you and me...

[rkg62976]

I was remiss for not providing any documentation for my assertion that the 1260 days should be interpreted as years, when I commented a yr. ago. So, here is some evidence:

John Gill (1748), on Rev.11:3 "a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days; that is, SO MANY YEARS, which, as before observed, is the date of the beast's reign [Rev.13:1-10], of the holy city being trodden under foot of the Gentiles, and of the church's retirement into the wilderness [Rev.12:6-17].."

[Dawitness11]

I AM THE WITNESS!

[Queeritual]

@Dawitness11

And I'm not! LMAO

[blinko656]

God is not trying to trick us, I think 2 witness's Elijah and ?.

Certainly not Enoch. And no one know for sure it is all speculation.

It is a good topic for it brings us closer to his grace.

I always end my thoughts on these areas knowing one thing, He died on the cross for us.

[michael1956able]

@blinko656 the holy spirt is telling me that one is Elijah and it makes sense because he had power to stop the rain for three and a half years 1kings,just like the witness in revealation does,and the other has to be Enoch because he never died either.Who else could it be? it cant be someone who has died already,.Spirit also telling me that the temple will be built,no rain,fire out of there mouth will stop the muslims.antichrist kills them,sits in temple says he is God an rules three half years

[michael1956able]

@blinko656 the holy spirt is telling me that one is Elijah and it makes sense because he had power to stop the rain for three and a half years 1kings,just like the witness in revealation does,and the other has to be Enoch because he never died either.Who else could it be? it cant be someone who has died already,.Spirit also telling me that the temple will be built,no rain,fire out of there mouth will stop the muslims.antichrist kills them,sits in temple ,says he is God an rules three half years.

[Queeritual]

@michael1956able

If John wrote Revelation then look to John's other books for clues, not Mathew. You will find something about Jesus wanting John to "remain alive until he returns".

"The rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die, but Jesus did not say he would not die, he said 'If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?' Follow me."

Of course, the church thinks they're so important in Revelation yet John hates their hypocrisy. Btw, John = Lamb.

[1Mazzaroth]

The fire is the Holy Ghost and the Sword is the word of God...

1 Thessalonians 1:5  For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

It goes with Jeremiah 5:14 and acts 1:8

[violetonyx]

It's so obvious that the two witnesses are Elijah & Enoch. Logically speaking, if God took them away to preserve them than they must experience physical death for the Biblical law requires all mankind to endure death as part of Adam & Eve's disobedience to the breaking of God's law, which was the partaking & consumption of the forbidden fruit.

[cleanmrbroadway]

I dont think that anything you disscussed you believe. Now that you have studied the many different points of view now study the literal meanings and see if you can dispute them.  Although you do say what you believe try just taking the literal points and not co-relating with former scripture becuase you cant except what you read.

[rkg62976]

One expositor uses very forceful language to explain the 'two witnesses'. He says that the Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testaments, their message trodden down, and lying ignominiously wounded in the schools and universities of the "Antichristian Church of Rome". "It also goes without discussion that the 1260 days, according to prophetic style, mean 1260 years, each day corresponding to a year." [Pierre De Launay, Paraphrase..of the Apocalypse From the Scriptures and History,p.299]

[rkg62976]

Both the Preterist and Futurist interpretation fail to recognize the day=year principle in the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation. If this hermeneutic is ignored, then one will see the 1260 as a literal 3.5 yrs. However, some of the great Reformers who commented specifically on this time prophecy, realized that the 1260 prophetic days represents literal years! This is important in establishing what the 'two witnesses' represent.

[mtzion211]

Thank you for posting. This is not out of the question in my mind. I believe the scriptures teach the two witnesses to be the law and the prophets of the OT. I have considered 1260 years as well as 1260 days of Christ's ministry in some fashion. Thank you and God bless!

[rkg62976]

A couple quotes from some great men of the Reformation may help, too. Speaking of the 42 mo. (1260 days), "...everie one of them, 1260 Iuliane yeares...The two witnesses mentioned (Rev.11) are the two Testaments...In that language of Latine, wherein they have bene used most..they are called 'Testamenta' from the word 'Testis', which is to say a 'Witnesse'." [John Napier, A Plaine Discovery of the Whole Revelation of St. John, p.24,25,32] *Notice the quaint language of Napier (1550-1617)

[tygew]

If you read all of these in order & you should see the connection: Rev 11:2-3, 13:5, 12:6, 12:14, Dan 7:25, 12:7, John 19:30, Rev 10:7, 15:1, 16:17, John 19:30, Rev 11:15

Just copy and paste this to bibligateway to see the light. The 3 1/2 years is 1260 days, 42 months, a time times and a half a time. This is the time from Jesus baptism till the end of the old covenant at His death when he said it is finished on the cross. Hence beginning the time period called the last days/day of the Lord

[mastertung7]

@rkg62976 well said

[Queeritual]

@rkg62976

Maybe John and Daniel ARE the two witnesses since they're the main prophets of the old and new testaments (2 candlesticks) and they are friends (Olive branches). But wait... naaaaaah.

[rkg62976]

@Queeritual I think the most important thing to remember when attempting to interpret the meaning of "two witnesses" (Rev.11), the "woman in the wilderness" (Rev.12), the "sea beast" (Rev.13:1-10), and the "little horn" (Dan.7)...is the day=year principle. If the day=year principle is abandoned, one will easily fall into a futuristic, or preteristic view of eschatological interpretation.

The 1,260 days represent literal years. Therefore, the two witnesses cannot be literal human beings.

[Queeritual]

@rkg62976

LOL

[mooglecharmed]

On another note, being that Rev 18 is about the eternal fall of Jerusalem (Babylon the Great from 17) by the armies of the beast (the iron sea beast in the order of the 3 world empires before it from Daniel 2 and 7) then how do you explain that Rev was fulfilled by Pentecost? Because to be honest Rev itself seems like an eviction notice for Jerusalem, all throughout the book, for what was done to Christ and his people (martyrdom). But there were no martyrs till AFTER Pentecost in Acts 7.

[mtzion211]

We will have to figure out a way to chat on these topics. I certainly agree that Rev 17, 18 are about the destruction of Jerusalem. I also believe that the New Jerusalem is the kingdom of God, the Church, that now exists. I see Revelation 20 as Pentecost when they surround the city and fire comes out of heaven and devours them. I believe the bride, the New Jerusalem, occurs right after pentecost when putting Revelation 17-22 together. What is your thoughts on this? GB

[mooglecharmed]

Now that's a different perspective of 20 I've never even considered and its very intriguing. I think my only problem with that is that 17-18 are about Jerusalem being destroyed for killing ALL saints (Luke 11:50), both prophet and apostle. So if no apostles were killed before Pentecost then how do you reconcile 18:20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and APOSTLES and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated YOU.' " and then verse 24?

[mtzion211]

At looking at Luke 11:50, the King James version reads all prophets. Luke 11:51 states that the blood from Able to Zacharias of the Old Testament would be required of that generation. Regarding Revelaiton 18 the word saints is found in the Old Testament in many passages. I believed that the whore of Babylon represents OT apostate Jerusalem that killed the prophets and saints of the OT. We can also compare to the parable of the landowner that lent out the land and they killed the Son. GB

[mooglecharmed]

One more point of interest to make and I'll call it a day here: Jesus calls his apostles his witnesses once their ministry begins after Pentecost. Matt 10:18 "On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles." (Mark 13:9, Luke 21:12-14) Acts 1:8 "But YOU WILL RECEIVE POWER when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and YOU WILL BE MY WITNESSES in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (cont...)

[mooglecharmed]

(...cont) So we see then from Luke 24:45-49 and its follow-up in Acts 1:8 that the parallels here are 1) Apostles, 2) Holy Spirit, 3) Power, 4) Jerusalem, 5) Witnesses. What were they witnesses of? The ministry and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:32, 3:15, 7:58, 10:39-41, 13:31) Antipas in Rev 2:13 was already described as a "faithful witness" which is also translated as faithful martyr. So these witnesses are also martyrs by definition; empowered by the Spirit and faithful till death.

[mooglecharmed]

Why are they in sackcloth? Because of the incoming judgment on Israel for forsaking the Law and the Christ. More precisely, as Jesus put it "WOE" to Korazin, Bethsaida, the teachers of the law and the Pharisees (Luke 10:13) that were ALL held responsible for ALL of the blood of God's people (11:47-52 19:41-44) and would mourn over the land being desolated (Rev 1:7YLT, 17:1, Luke 21:20-22, Rev 18:20-24).

[mooglecharmed]

Why 3.5 years? It was the period of time that Christians were heavily persecuted by Rome and non-Christian Jews. This was during Nero's reign from about 64-67 and then the next 3.5 years would run smoothly into the First Jewish-Roman War in which Jerusalem was desolated by Titus from 66-70. There is the 7 years tribulation. The war is FAMOUSLY known for lasting exactly 3.5 years as the time kept of it was on their coinage. The Temple fell on the anniversary of when Nebuchadnezzar razed it.

[mooglecharmed]

I think Acts 4:23-31as is 5:29-39. Especially here: 5:29 "Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32WE ARE WITNESSES of these things, AND SO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom God has given to those who obey him." There are your two witnesses. =]

[mooglecharmed]

Therefore Zech 4, Rev 11 and Acts 5 tell different aspects of the same event. Zech foretells it in ancient Jewish figurative form, Rev tells it in a blend of past meeting the present into a fruition of the mystery of God being revealed "soon" to the churches and Acts tells the story in its most historic form with Luke as the surgical historian. On another note 2 or more witnesses made a testimony true and Jesus sent out his disciples in 2's. This meant their word was truth.

[mtzion211]

I agree. Revelation, Isaiah, Zechariah are speaking of the same time frame. That is the time of Jesus' first coming. God bless!

[mooglecharmed]

mtzion, the fire that proceeds from the mouths of the witnesses is the Holy Spirit working through them. In Acts 2:1-4, the Holy Spirit rests on them as tongues of fire. This is precisely what Jesus promised that the Spirit would remind them of all he had taught them. The answer is is clear in Zech. because the CONTEXT is the HOLY SPIRIT empowers men. And who did the Holy Spirit empower?- those present in Acts 2 that baptized 3,000. The two witnesses is the 1church empowered by the 2Spirit.

[mtzion211]

Thanks for the posts. I believe that we are in agreement as far as the fire that proceeds out of the mouth of the winesses. I still lean to them being the law and the prophets empowered by the Holy Spirit. I believe Revelation is all about the SPIRITUAL accomplishments and achievements of Jesus at His FIRST coming! God Bless!

[mooglecharmed]

I think I see how you can think that the Law represents "one" of the witnesses in question if you mean that Moses held the Law as a witness AGAINST the Jews that would forsake it (Deu 31:26, 4:26). But in light of Acts 5:31-32, Acts 1:8, Luke 24:12-14, Matt 10:13, Mark 13:9... Acts 2:32, 3:15, 7:58, 10:39-41, 13:31 I can't totally see eye-to-eye with you on that one since the apostles are singled out by Jesus in person as being his witnesses and how they would witness. What do you think?

[mtzion211]

Hello again. I believe that the book of Revelation is about past events that were complete by the day of pentecost. These are all accomplishments that are a result of Jesus' first coming. I see the evidence of this through understanding the whore of Babylon, the New Jerusalem, the timing of Revelation according to chapters 4 and 5, etc. I could explain further if you like. The point to this is that because of my general understanding of Revelation I would think the law and the prophets. GB

[mooglecharmed]

I think in general we agree more than disagree - at least on the spiritual implications of the kingdom and the church which is all that is truly important. I very much appreciate your positive attitude and discussion. There is a lot of ego in these debates sometimes and its good to find a safe haven to discuss these controversial topics in peace.  I think it reveals about you that you would be equally honest in your studies and that is what this world needs. Keep up the great work and faith!

[mtzion211]

Yes. We agree on many things. I already see how you look at things differently with a spiritual perspective. We will have to talk more as there is probably some things we could certainly learn from each other's perspective. There are a few on here but it is good to find others that see the truth. The only thing that I tend to be different on is AD70. Just as the prophets of the OT, Jesus was speaking literally and spiritually in the Olivet Discourse.

[mooglecharmed]

Hi, mtzion, thanks for the video. First, you asked why would the 3 1/2 year Jewish time period be represented as 42 months, 1,260 days and time, times and half a time. This is because the aim of Revelation is multi-faceted. It's like asking why Jerusalem is called "the great city", "Egypt", "Sodom" and "where Jesus was crucified. We know its Jerusalem ALSO because the Temple is being measured and found wanting like the end of Babylon. Also, see Rev 12:9, 20:2 for many names for Satan.

[mtzion211]

I am not convinced that the three would be the same necessarily because Jerusalem or Satan are called different names. I am open to these meaning the same as I used to believe this. I now lean toward them being separate but like I say I am open. Of course almost everything is cross referenced somewhere,usually in the OT. We are in more agreement than disagreement. You are a preterist and do you believe in the fulfillment in AD70. I believe this applies to the Olivet discourse not Revelation.

[mooglecharmed]

Yes, I believe 70 was the event that completed Heb 8:13, 9:26 and Dan12:13. The Temple stood as the symbol that Law was still not oboslete. Once it fell then Hades was judged in Christ and the holy dead were raised in their new spiritual bodies. It was also when God traded a whore for a virgin, Law for grace, Jerusalem for New Jerusalem, and theTemple for the temple that Jesus rebuilt in 3 days which was his body. I am fully convinced as of now that 70 was Exodus II. Christ's church freed.

[mooglecharmed]

Well, my examples of Jerusalem and Satan having up to 4-5 different names in Revelation (some in the same verse) are not isolated cases. Even Rome is given many names as are even Jesus and the church itself. Revelation represents... well.. revelations. We are reading how GOD sees what takes place during a crisis that involves his Covenant people. There are two distinctly different 3.5 year periods: 1) Chrsitians persecuted, 2) Jerusalem desolated. 3.5 is half of 7. Now read Dan 9:27

[tygew]

ThePersecuted1. You've made a lot of statements and questions, so it's hard to answer all of them here; so I'll try to be as brief as possible. Or I can private email you here.

Revelations is the revealing of the past. It revealed that Jesus & John are the two witnesses who proclaimed the way before Christ. Then after 3 1/2 years at the baptism Jesus became Messiah; 3 1/2 years later he died. God/Jesus calls down as many plagues as he wishes, NOT Moses. John is the Elijah who was to come.

[tygew]

There are many mysteries that are reveled in Revelations. The dragon that swipes a third of the stars out of the sky with his tail is Satan who deceived a third of the spirits/angels out of heaven with his lies. The 7 th woe is when Jesus died on the cross & said "It is finished" "It is DONE". The main mystery reveled is that Jesus is God sitting on the throne of judgment judging the dead at our deaths during this time period called 'The Day of the LORD"; aka last days, last hour, that hour etc

[tygew]

CONT: During this time period called the day of the LORD, we die at an unknown hour so we must be ready; Jesus comes for us 'as a thief in the nigh't; we die 'suddenly' just as they did in Noah's time, but instead of dying all at once, we die 'each in his own order' 'two are alive one is taken the other left' alive; then at death we are translated to living spirits 'instantly "in the twinkling of an eye"; & at death 'we shall ever be with the LORD therefore think on those things' ;-)

[mtzion211]

Hello and God bless!. Just to chime in here. I believe that Revelation is all about the past. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and represents the SPIRITUAL accomplishments and achievements of Jesus at His FIRST coming. All of these things are outlined in the book of Revelation. Notice in Matthew 28:18 when Jesus states that He had received all power in heaven and in earth. Compare this to Revelation 5. The New Jerusalem in the Church, the bride. God bless!

[tygew]

mtzion211 "I believe that Rev is all about the past. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ & represents the SPIRITUAL accomplishments & achievements of Jesus at His FIRST coming"

EXACTLY!!!!!! Thank you for BRAVELY telling the truth. ;-) ALL SCRIPTURE HAS BEEN FULFILLED WITH JESUS WHEN HE SAID "IT IS FINISHED"

John 19:30

Jesus received the vinegar & said 'IT IS FINISHED'

Rev 10:7

in the days of the voice of the 7th angel, when he is about to sound, then is finished they mystery of God

[mtzion211]

Thank you and thanks for posting on my profile. Not many are in agreement with the above statement. We will have to talk more my friend. We have much in common. It is good to know you and thank the Lord for revealing truth to you about this wonderful book that is so misunderstood. God bless and I hope to talk with you again soon.

[ThePersecuted1]

Wrong: You're saying that he's one of the two witnesses and the 3rd woe (7th Trumpet) is where 'it is finished'. The witnesses die in Rev. 11:7. The 2nd woe ends 7 verse LATER ...Rev. 11:14!!!! Get it?

[mtzion211]

I see that you are having a conversation here. Just to chime in here. I believe that Revelation is all about the past. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and represents the SPIRITUAL accomplishments and achievements of Jesus at His FIRST coming. All of these things are outlined in the book of Revelation. Notice in Matthew 28:18 when Jesus states that He had received all power in heaven and in earth. Compare this to Revelation 5. The New Jerusalem in the Church, the bride. God bless!

[tygew]

Don't be a goof ball 'Persecuted'. It's obvious I meant the 7th trumpet. Revelation 11 (Young's Literal Translation) is what you should read to understand this better.

The 2nd woe is the death of jesus on the cross, the 3rd woe is saying that the kingdom of man has become the kingdom of God. No Contradiction there.

[ThePersecuted1]

Who said that Revelations has to be revealing of the past? Who made that rule up? What about the the return of Christ on the White Horse with His angels & the saints and the battle of Armageddon? Is that a revelation of the past is it? In Jewish tradition don't all males being their ministries at age 30? John did and so did the Lord.

[tygew]

ThePersecuted1 said: "What about the the return of Christ on the White Horse with His angels & the saints and the battle of Armageddon?"

There is no battle of Armageddon. Read Zech 12:10-12. Like I said, Rev speaks of the past. The great and terrible day of the LORD is the day you die; the unknown hour; your personal day of judgment; death; when 2 are alive 1 dies & 1 remains alive

The return of Christ is a misunderstanding of his presence as him being God, the unseen omnipresent Holy Spirit

[ThePersecuted1]

There's no reason the two witnesses even have to be any prophets from the Old or New Testaments, is there? Which verse in the Bible states that they have to be anyone from the past in the Bible. I haven't come across one.

[lazbo4174]

two witnesses = Old and New testaments

[mtzion211]

Thanks for posting. I have heard this before I just can't find where the scripture shows this to be the two witnesses. Thanks and I would be glad to reference any scriptures you might have to confirm this. God bless!

[lazbo4174]

mtzion211... thanks for your reponse. i will endevour to make a video on the subject my friend

[ThePersecuted1]

Yeah, I'm hummin' and hawing about this interpretation but I can see how they do actually both testify of the Lord. He even said this about the OT to the Pharisees that they testified of Him. But I guess I have an issue/w the plagues thing, the world celebrating their deaths and the subsequent resurrection and earthquake - I'm at a loss as to what these could mean therefore. I believe I know one of the two witnesses personally - i.e. he's human. Do make a vid man. I'm interested in your views.

[lazbo4174]

i will endevour to make a video as soon as time allows God willing. As i work away from home during the week it will probably be next weekend before i get the chance. please pray that God will me the time and opportunity to do so and most of all the inspiration.

[Dawitness11]

oh its so hard to live. can't wait into we soar on the wings of eagles, when we where sackcloath when the testiomny begins and ends.

ah we are people, it will be lital fire.

uhhhh people try to eat solid food and have not yet fully understood what Jesus did on the cross.

I don't know who the other one is but I know 100% that one is Moses.

[tygew]

Dan 9's 69 7's is 483 years till Messiah. The last 7 years is Jesus ministry. In the middle of the 7 Jesus is baptized. The last 3 1/2 years of Jesus till death was 1260 days, 42 months. a time times & a half time, a year, years & a half year = 3 1/2 years. Jesus is the one who calls down as many plagues as he wishes; God/Jesus turned the waters into blood, NOT Moses. Moses only said 'Aaron hold up your staff'

Jesus & John the baptist are the 2 witness who proclaimed the way till Jesus baptism

[tygew]

Mat 11:12-14

from the days of John til now the kingdom of heaven is violently taken by (Christians). For ALL the prophets & the law prophesied until John, if ye are willing to receive it, this (John) is Elijah that is to come

Mal 4:5-6

I'll send you Elijah the prophet before the great & terrible day of Jehovah come & he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children

Lk 1:17

(John) shall go before his face in the spirit & power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children

[tygew]

Mat 17:10-13

His disciples asked 'Why then say the scribes (In Malachi 4:5) that Elijah must first come?' Jesus answered & said, Elijah indeed cometh & shall restore all things: but I say into you, that ELIJAH IS COME ALREADY & they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them. Then understood the disciples that HE SPAKE UNTO THEM OF JOHN THE BAPTIST.

John's the promised Elijah who was to come BEFORE the day of the LORD at Jesus death

[mtzion211]

This is correct. Thank you for this post. I have a video entitled John the Baptist was Elijah the Prophet. I do not know if you have seen this video yet but it confirms what you say here. Thank you and God bless! We are in agreement here.

[ThePersecuted1]

Spot on man. I never noticed Luke 1:17 before. It says it all right there. What are your thoughts on Matt. 17:11?

The Lord said 'Elias truly shall first come' which reads to me as a future-tense because then He follows it up with John the Baptist being Elias which reads to me as a double fulfillment = 1) then and 2) again in the future. What do you think?

[tygew]

Mat 17:10-13 (Young's Literal Translation)

And his disciples questioned him, saying, `Why then do the scribes say that Elijah it behoveth to come first?' (Mal 4:5) And Jesus answering said to them, `Elijah doth indeed come first, and shall restore all things, & I say to you -- Elijah did already come & they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.' Then understood the disciples that concerning John the Baptist he spake to them.

[tygew]

After the transfiguration Peter realized that Jesus was the Messiah. So he asked Why do the scribes say that Elijah would come first before Messiah? Jesus said Because the scribes don't lie, therefore yes it's true, Elijah indeed comes first before the Messiah. But I'm telling you that the promised Elijah already did come as John the baptist & they did not realize it

Then the disciples understood that Jesus was saying that John WAS in fact the real promised Elijah of Malachi 4

[tygew]

Your confusion is in believing the 'end time & rapture' myths. Revelations does NOT speak of the future! It only 'REVEALS' the past

The two witnesses of Rev are NOT Moses & Elijah, they are Jesus & John the baptist. they are the two witnesses who prophesied 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, 42 months before Jesus was baptized. Then 3 1/2 years, 42months, 1260 days later, Jesus was crucified; which brought the END of the old covenant

Hit "read all comments" at the bottom to understand this in context

[ThePersecuted1]

Wait, John the Baptist was beheaded and didn't get resurrected 3 1/2 days later. True or false. Next, did the world rejoice at John's death. No.

"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves" - Rev. 11:9.

Did this happen to Jesus or John. No. They were both buried.

Let it go man.

[tygew]

Rev 11:2-3, 13:5, 12:6, 12:14, Dan 7:25, 12:7, John 19:30, Rev 10:7, 15:1, 16:17, then again John 19:30.

Do you get it yet? The times time and a half time are the 3 1/2 years, the 1260 days, the 42 months, the year years and a half year, the time of Jesus ministry was 7 years. In the middle of the 7 Sacrifice comes to an end. At the end of the week of years Jesus is killed bringing an end to the old covenant when he said "It is finished", Rev 10:7 "then is finished they mystery of God"

[tygew]

The 7 year tribulation is a misunderstanding of Jesus 7 year ministry; called "the last week of sevens" in Dan 9. In Dan 8:14, 2,300 years before Jesus death an angel said this. In Ezra 6 they declared the rebuilding of the temple. 483 years (69 7s) later Jesus started his 7 year ministry (the last week of 7s, the last 70th week of years). 3 1/2 years into this week of years he was baptized; then 3 1/2 years later he was crucified. The last week of years was when Jesus said "It is finished!"

[tygew]

Rev 10:7

But in the days of the voice of the 7TH angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets (IN DAN 8 & 9)

Rev 15:1

I saw another sign in heaven, great & marvellous, 7 angels having the 7 last plagues; for in them is FINISHED the wrath of God

Rev 16:17

the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air & there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. "IT IS FINISHED"

[tygew]

John 19:30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "IT IS FINISHED": and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

[ThePersecuted1]

What's Armageddon? The Beast/Antichrist, False prophet and dragon all gather there to fight God - dumb move but yeah (Rev. 16:13-14). And going by your interpretation is Jesus coming back and setting up the Millenial kingdom after He casts the Beast & false Prophet into the lake of fire?

[ThePersecuted1]

1) Why is there no record of Jesus beginning His ministry at age 26 and a half then? I understood from the Bible that male Jews do not begin their ministry until age 30.

2) Where in the NT does it tell us that the sacrifices were done away with in Jesus time? References. NT.

[ThePersecuted1]

Jesus never had a 7 year ministry. Again, NT references. And yeah I did do math at school. 3 1/2 years. Yah, got it. But are you connecting them together in any other way?

Also. 'it is done, 'it is finished' can refer to those events only. Not to one single event. The 7th trump and 7th vial are two separate events. Jesus saying 'it is finished' and dying is another. The two witnesses finishing their testimony is another. Why can't these things are all separate and discrete events?

[ThePersecuted1]

Nah, sorry man. Peter knew He was the Messiah before the transfiguration:

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." - Matt. 16:16

The transfiguration took place in the next chapter.

[tygew]

Luke 9:28-36 Peter was there with Jesus at the trans-configuration

What I referred to was Mat 17:1-13. Verse 10 says "his disciples asked 'Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?' There were only three men there with Jesus during this trans-configuration, Peter, John & James

Peter asked why the scribes in Malachi 4:5 say that Elijah would come BEFORE the Messiah, then Jesus clarified that John was the promised Elijah. Please don't be so cocky & call me a liar again. thanks :-)

[TrustinJC]

I believe you have missed a few points.

1) they wear burlap

2) they prophecy

3) they die

4) are viewed by all nations

All of these things point them being actual people.

The burlap explains the state of the church. For burlap is worn during times of great sorrow, mourning, and repentance.

Viewed by all nations is something only made possible since the invention of TV. Once again indicating real people.

con't

[TrustinJC]

The 1260 days and 42 months can only both equal 3.5 years if the year is figured at 360 days instead of 365 days as is now the norm.

Scripture tells us the seasons will be shortened. The number of days stated here go to show that the calender will be changed before the tribulation.

Also, Rev 3 tells us the church in Philadelphia will be spared the tribulation. (great time of testing) This shows a prerapture happening.

[mtzion211]

Thank you for your post here. I do believe that Revelation is about the end of the world or any future event. The New Jerusalem is the Church that now exists and the whore of Babylon is OT apostate Jerusalem. I do thank you for your opinion on this but this much I feel sure of. I have a couple of videos on this and the evidence is overwhelming. To the nations does not always indicate the whole world. For instance the the prophets voice went out to all the world the Bible states. GBU

[mtzion211]

I meant do not believe in the above verse. God bless.

[tygew]

You should see some of my long detailed letters. The end of this physical world is our deaths 'the unknown hour' as clarified at the end of Mat 24:50-51. When we die we enter into a new spiritual world & heaven:

Isaiah 65:17

For, behold (at our deaths), I create new (spiritual) heavens & a new earth & the former (physical) things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind

The presence of Jesus is here now as spirit, aka last days & day of the Lord. The return of Jesus is at death: the 'end'

[mtzion211]

I also do not believe that the letters to the churches have anything to do with end times. This shortening of days does not to me seem to be a likely interpretation. Every other correct interpretation is never this complicated and is simplistic. Please watch The New Jerusalem: A City that Even the Blind Can See and Bible Revelation: The Whore of Babylon: The Real Deal. Let me know your thoughts. I believe more closely to a preterist view. Let me know after you watch them and thanks again.

[ThePersecuted1]

There is a secret yet worldwide technology already being used and 'hacked' by these two witnesses. God gave them this ability. It is like a TV you have in your mind that you can see people as if they're right there. No need to travel overseas. TV is stone age. These two have the God-given power to prophecy and be heard world wide whether they like it or not. It's their thoughts that are heard. They testify of the wickedness they see and suffer from to God who is right there too.

[LethalChaos07]

I think one reason it states 1260 and 42 months is just to make it even more clear. I also feel the fire coming out of the mouth is just the truth. The truth does burn people and people these days can't handle the truth. To me the way i am treated sometimes because im so honest no one will believe you. Its just the world we are in. Keep up the good work brother!!!

[mtzion211]

Hello and good to see you back. The 42 months and 1260 days could represent the same time period. I do not see this currently as I state in the video but I could be wrong on this. Admittedly it is a difficult passage to understand in it's entirety. I agree that the fire is the words of truth and is in essence heaping coals upon the heads of those that hear and do not heed. Thanks for your comments and your opinion is always appreciated and welcomed on these issues. God bless!

[LethalChaos07]

Thats why im glad yall are doing these videos because Revelation isn't the most easiest thing to grasp. I just hope some more people start seeing yalls videos and participate.

[mtzion211]

I agree. I believe and am thankful for the truths that God has shown me so far but there is much I do not know. I, like you, am hoping that through honest open discussion, and the Spirit's guidance, that we can seek these truths. If for no other reason I pray God blesses just because of honest and sincere people coming together to seek these truths. Many have stated that even above the teachings in these videos is the testimony of brotherhood and discussion. You are obviously part of that.

[tygew]

I just re read this and I saw this little conversation. You guys are right about Jesus words as being the fire since he says in Rev that he will 'war against them with the sword of his mouth." That sword is the truth at 'judgment' which cuts both ways; some to eternal life, some to eternal darkness. The sword of truth cuts both ways; it either condemns us or frees us. But ultimately it's all up to us according to what we choose to believe. The fire/truth is not about pain it's judgment to hell

[4096x]

let me have a think.

[mtzion211]

Thank you. I look forward to your opinion and interpretation of this passage. As you know, I only seek the truth of God on these issues, as I am sure you do. It is a difficult passage as I explain in the video. Thanks and God bless!

[BeingBob]

I really enjoyed this video.

[mtzion211]

Thank you very much for this comment. I am glad you enjoyed it. I look forward to bingolly1 and his next video on this subject.  I am always looking for some more insight into the Bible. Thanks and GBU!

[Bingolly1]

MtZion, I honestly believe you handled this chapter very well with all the possibilities it could be. I will go ahead and make a video response to this chapter while it is on our mind. One question. Does it really matter who they are? What difference would who they are change the message of the text?

[mtzion211]

Thanks for responding. This is a difficult passage for me. I have tried looking at it from various angles. I do not believe that who they are would change the message of the text as you point out. Maybe we don't need to know. I do think it is important concerning the timing of the passage and there is much corresponding scripture relating to the two witnesses throughout the Bible. I am certainly open on this passage and I look forward to your video. As always, thanks and GBU!

[Bingolly1]

Honestly MtZion I believe you handled the text as honestly as any one could. You presented several different ways it could be looked at and became a teacher. Then you let us know what you thought it meant but did not limit yourself to that interpretation. What more could any one ask of you. You did a good job Tom. Proud of you for that. GBU

[Bingolly1]

I misunderstood your email Tom. I am watching it now. Thanks