News #1 Rebecca Watson Elevator Incident

[Clemburke1111]

So as a small gay man on an elevator at 4 in the morning and a big burly gay man ask for for coffee in his room, is that sexist ?

[JustHuman48]

If you're interested in a woman as a person and not for a one night stand, this is not the way to approach a woman you don't even know. The whole "you women are privileged because you don't get your genitals mutilated" argument is redundant. Western women are well aware of the extreme suffering of other women in far less equal socities, however this is not a reason to stop attempting to ameliorate the cultural behaviours in our own societies.

[chigeh]

@JustHuman48 Is their something wrong with being interested in a woman for sex? Did it not occur to you that he might have been interested in sex AND her personality? Is approaching a woman you do not know and making her feel uncomfortable an act of opression? Were her human rights violated in this situation?

[JustHuman48]

On the surface this may not sound like much but you're alone a with a man you don't know, you can't leave immediately, he's suggesting you join him in his room rather than a public place (cafe?!), he's suggesting you join him at 4am instead of suggesting that you meet the following day in a public place. As a woman, I would find this threatening and somewhat insulting...

[TheEdgarAllenGospis]

@JustHuman48 how is it insulting? discomfort and an odd threatened felling is natural but that is not to say that th social attitude is different where she was, also he may have only had the one night, Maybe he just wanted some goddam coffee with her. Sexuallizing, she is either flattering her self or taking the sexual image of men as a pure reality. Plus, some of us are just shitty at socializing. Tp me this no more tha "men think only with their penis"

[JustHuman48]

I can understand why some people cannot relate to Watson's view however if you consider that statistically, most victims of rape and physical abusiveness from the opposite sex are women, you might start to understand why it feels threatening for a man to proposition a women at 4am, in an elevator, when she's alone and can't escape and also, why invite her to your hotel room for a coffee? You're a complete stranger to her...

[garbledstoic]

In defense of Dawkins. I have to sit around with a bunch of white, upper middle-class white guys who complain that, although they have most everything the world could possibly give one in terms of material wealth, they just don't like taxes. Now, that is valid. But shit, half the world is starving or close to it. I think it is the constant whining of the fortunate that sounds so grating against the moans of the truly oppressed. Get it now?

[DoctorSkepticus]

@Urantivirus

She never made an issue "with the world" out of the matter. She posted a polite comment explaining something that seems rather obvious to most people; that being hit on in such a way(by a stranger from a bar at 4:00 am who is feigning interest in conversation as if she is brain dead) makes her feel uneasy.

AGAIN, to get a better understanding of WHY imagine you were sent to prison and a very large inmate was being creeepily 'nice' to you and you know full well he is aiming for sex

[urantivirus]

Well I don't think she ever has to worry about anybody hitting on her ever again.

[Jme501]

awww haha I can't believe you missed Dawkin's point

[HoukouAoi123]

so, would it be wrong if he asked in plain words for casual sex? because even in that case she shouldnt have bitched like that

[uknichu]

You didn't understand Dawkins' argument. Epic fail!

[chrisholland]

REBECCA WATSON IS FUGLY, SHE IS FULL OF HERSELF, SHOULD BE KICKED OF SKEPTICS GUIDE

[Maxdwolf]

@chrisholland So you're saying physical attractiveness should be a measure when determining membership for women?

[FeignofCordor]

She`s a Drama queen

[alttaab]

I think all Dawkins was saying was saying was that it wasn't sexist and that is belittle the major sexism going on around the world to call it sexism. However I'll admit I haven't looked into the subject very much.

[DoctorSkepticus]

Dawkins' response was wrong-headed as well. In the same way that saying slavery was not bad because many people have been wiped out through genocide.

[DoctorSkepticus]

You have to understand that, if Rebecca Watson was a man, the guy in the elevator would not have asked 'him' to come back to his room at 4:00 am. If I were a woman(especially if I were a semi-famous and fairly attractive one) and some guy stalked me into an elevator and tried to put the moves on me, I would be creeped out and so would you.

This is something that is unique to the female gender really and most of us males therefore have a hard time understanding and end up responding as some here.

[urantivirus]

@DoctorSkepticus Oh STFU and grow some balls already. There's nothing wrong with hitting on people. The polite thing to do in her case was to simply decline his offer, not to try and make it an issue with the world. The truth is she's a cold and bitter, cynical bitch. Which is fine, anyone is aloud to have whatever personality they want. But if you're defending her position, you fall in the same category.

I've had women that I had no interest in hit on me, I was polite about it.

[Diabolojr]

Well, I think the point dawkins was trying to make, although in a really bad way, was that like you said, it wasnt really a sexism issue. THe whole "incident", was  just a bad timing thing. THe most we can think about this guy character(elevator guy) is that he is socially inept . But this has just been blown out of proportion. By both camps. The dawkins supporters and the watson supporters. There is no issue, just an ego fight. Both should just shut up and concentrate on bigger issues.

[rcguy69]

If atheism was a band Rebecca Watson would be Yoko Ono.

[TheCoolestGeekEver]

Im gonna take a shot in the dark and say you were the guy that asked her to your room!

[lostn65]

I think calling for a boycott on Dawkins because he brushed off her complaint as irrelevant is a bit immature and rash.

[pancakerepairman]

people, rebecca included, let dawkins reframe the issue as 'does she have the right to make a big deal about this', when she was never trying to do that in the first place. her comment was 30 seconds in the middle of an 8 minute video mostly on other topics. it was her commenters that made it a focal point.

[CurtN1000]

It isn't that RW was wrong to mention her feelings about the elevator guy or that RD's response to it was insensitive; It is that RW responded to mere insensitivity with a savage, illogical attack on RD. But RW is the one you're all worrying and fawning over, because RD is a man. Men don't need protecting. Women do, even when they've done most of the wrong. Sexism is at work here all right.

[daiklaive]

"dont take this the wrong way" i think is the key here. it implies he considered his words, realized they could be taken as a sexual overture but proceeded anyways because her need to not be made uncomfortable by that interpretation was not as important as his need to invite her back to his bedroom to "talk."

the real sexism is being made known in the comments section on her youtube and blogs, though. to those people: bravo, stay classy.

[88Keyz101]

If there was any sexism in that incident, it was on Rebecca Watson's part. The presumption that any male who talks to you in an elevator & wants to get to know you is automatically "sexualizing" you is in itself a bigoted idea.

So because she felt uncomfortable, she thinks she has the right to tell others how to behave "word to the wise, don't do that". What should be said is if this is how she feels, then it's HER problem. Unless one wants to live in a bubble, get thicker skin.

[DoctorSkepticus]

@88Keyz101

Don't be silly junior. Maybe you are not a male and don't realize this but the 'elevator guy' WAS trying to get laid. What other possible reason for asking an attractive woman back to his room at FOUR O'CLOCK int he morning, after drinking at a bar?! A guy not trying to get laid who honestly just wanted to communicate with her would have given her his email or asked for her web addy or at least waited until the next day.

[88Keyz101]

@DoctorSkepticus

It doesnt matter what fkn time it is. She just left a bar. Youre saying that theres no possible way that someone wants to talk at 4am? Things like that happen all the time. It's called hanging out. And if he did want to get laid.... who gives a shit? Say no & walk the fuck away. He wasnt rubbing his dick on her. There was no knife to her throat. He wasnt sexualizing her. I hang out with girls until the sun comes out & no sex occurs... its a new world gramps.

[DoctorSkepticus]

@88Keyz101

You are still missing the point. Let me try to clarify this for you via an analogy: Imagine you are a 105 lbs guyl who is asked to speak about...IDK, race relations in America or some such. After the speech you are hanging out in the bar talking with fellow intellectuals. At 4:00 am you decide to say goodbye and head back to your room. But there is this white guy following you right into an elevator. he stands behind you and sings "Get my rope and white sheets...taking USA back..."

[DoctorSkepticus]

@DoctorSkepticus

You would not feel creeped out? You would not think that this guy's songs and comments were not racist? Because that is what it is like for many women who are stalked into elevators in the wee hours after leaving bars.

[88Keyz101]

@DoctorSkepticus

That is the absolute worst analogy I ever heard.

[DoctorSkepticus]

@88Keyz101

How so? I think you are just unable to answer the point.

[88Keyz101]

@DoctorSkepticus

How so!?!? Because your analogy is equivelating an incredibly racist chant with a non-threatening request for coffee. Are you dense?

[DoctorSkepticus]

@88Keyz101

How so? The white guy in my analogy said nothing overtly racist in his chant either and actual racists would likely defend him with the same reasoning you use here to attack RW. The fictional white guy in my analogy is "racist" in the same way that the elevator guy was being creepy and predatory(not in the way that an actual rapist would be so don't mangle what I said here).

[CurtN1000]

The striking thing to me about this incident is not so much the primary incident itself - RW's remarks about the guy in the elevator and RD's reaction to it - but RW's reaction to RD's reaction, her "The Privilege Delusion" blog post which she begins with: "Richard Dawkins believes I should be a good girl and just shut up about being sexually objectified because it doesn’t bother him. Thanks, wealthy old heterosexual white man!"

That reaction is hysterical and I don't mean funny.

[busterbox]

That throwing around "sexism" and "misogyny" being a bad idea was Dawkins' point, pretty much.

[rgzdev]

That wasn't a poor argument, that was fucking hilarious.

[drunkdeaddude]

Wow, what a stupid thing to make an issue of. She pointed out that she felt uncomfortable. It may be that the guy was unaware that he was making her uncomfortable. It may be that she understands that. That doesn't change the fact that she was uncomfortable. I don't think she meant to make a big deal of it. She didn't identify the guy or accuse him of anything other than creeping her out. She expressed her feelings on her experience. It sounds like Dawkins missed the point, sadly.

[MMaeidlilniAW]

@drunkdeaddude She accused him of being sexist you dumbfuck and that is huge

[drunkdeaddude]

@MMaeidlilniAW

I must have missed that part of her video. Oh, no. I didn't. She never said that. She mentioned that she had just given a speech about being uncomfortable when men sexualize her in that manner. That is not to say that he sexualized her or that he was sexist. She meant that he should have realized that approaching her in that way would make her uncomfortable.

If this behavior were deemed sexist by the legal system, I'd be upset. The fact is she didn't even say so.

[88Keyz101]

@drunkdeaddude

Dude, youre everywhere.

[RedMiel]

I don't claim to know anything about Watson other than her account of the incident, but it doesn't feel sexist, it feels situational. If a man gets you alone and asks you to his hotel room, most women would probably get a little uncomfortable, and most would start assuming things because he wants to talk /in his hotel room/ instead of somewhere public. This doesn't make him a rapist, but he should be aware of how his request makes the woman feel, and I think that's what Watson was getting at IMO

[PerfectWoman2]

well people just don't get that women feel oppressed.. I mean... coffee?? In an elevator?? what are you crazy? In Ireland??? I mean... don't you realize how sexist that is? how can men be so selfish...??? Offering a coffe.. to a woman inside an irish lift is a catastrophy... it's just terrible. What an insensitive selfish man. This is evil patriarchy... now if you watch my video on my channel.. you will understand how women feel. Coffee.... pleeeease. STOP OPPRESSING WOMEN!!

jee men are so evil

[greenghost2008]

to me. meet me in my apartment for coffee literally means meet me in my room for coffee

[runtodahills]

it depends on the guy.

very attractive men get turned down (if at all) differently.

[Artem1sEntreri]

@runtodahills Exactly. I wonder how she would've reacted if an Armani model approached her in the same manner and whether she would then find that offensive at all. Probably not.

[synchronium24]

he prepositioned her!

[travlr3000x]

Dawkins wasn't comparing worse sexism to lesser sexism. He was comparing true horrific sexism to a drunk feminist making an issue over nothing

[josephjsteinberg]

Epic fail! ShadowStarshine has managed both to over-analyze and miss the point. Listen to Ms. Watson, not what your texts tell you. I think fruitikay is cloder to the mark.

[LynnFikstad]

Fair analysis; more fair than I am when evaluating it.  I hope I brought up my daughters up to be strong enough to handle these situations without resorting to a supercilious public scolding of men they aren't interested in.

[Elenkhos]

People want to have sex. Some people are not social fucking engineers, and are not very constructive in the way they approach people. Say "No thank you" and move the fuck on.

[bingy08]

It was 4am and he asked her back to his room after she had said she was going to bed. Did he hear her say that, we don't know but still inappropriate.

[PeytonFarquhar1]

@bingy08 - inappropriate, yes. Misogyny and sexual objectification? No. A big deal? No. Something a 27 year old woman who is the star of a conference/convention can't handle? Absolutely not. Emblematic of sexism and anti-feminism? No.

[LogicalStatements1]

It was sexist, she was sexist, she is a disgrace to all other women before her who fought for equal rights, she was basically like I AM A WOMAN I HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS then she was AHHHH a MAN CHATTED ME UP IN A LIFT TREAT ME LIKE I AM JUST A HELPLESS WOMAN , she cannot have her cake and eat it she should make up her mind, does Watson want equal rights as a woman or not?

I say this because if she asked him for coffee we would have heard nothing of it!

[sausage4mash]

Dawkins comment was genius ! he was pointing out with comedy how fucking stupid this women is

[metalskinstudios]

I completely agree, dude! You've verbalized it better than I could!

[jedimastereric]

I also liked your video. I too have been thinking about this alot. It seems that the comments that Ms. Watson made were not even that big of a deal and she had her point. The rukus began when people on both sides decided to take up arms. Great analysis though.

[matthewlane]

Does anyone else feel Rebecca Watson has made up this story, just to back up her presentation? Do we in fact have any evidence it happened at all?

[fruitikay]

This is a fair analysis. :) Good job.