Can my ministry flourish in an Arminian environment even though I hold to Reformed theology?

[MightyZeppelin1973]

America has adopted a modern, evangelical feel good approach to christianity, by weeding out traditional and ritualistic christian practices that have continued to flourish and be passed down still all throughout Europe for thousands of years, like using candles, incense, using the rosary, reciting all the psalms, taking communion, the sign of the cross, etc.. I'm not just talking catholic either. Also, Greek orthodox, arminian, and tradtional protestant churches too.

[RUdigitized]

I think the whole C&A thing is POSSIBLY a simple issue of semantics. When I was saved I desired God and CHOSE him, but when I learned greek words like prognosis and elektos, I didn't get defensive or angry I LOVED that and I'm so grateful for Jehovah and his Son Yeshuah! ::::D

[dedred5]

So much stereo typing of peoples walk with Christ on either side of the Calvinist/Arminian debate.Deal with men individually because each man has grown with the Spirit uniquely,we assume to much.God sanctifying us goes beyond this tiresome debate.When we stand before Christ's throne and are judged,I wonder how he will respond in the way His church has handled these doctrines.Will we be called out for the division we have created and fueled,or the love we have spread despite our interpretations.

[chaingang90]

I think any arminiam-oriented senior leader who watches this is probably not going to allow anyone who hold to reformed theology to minister in their church now that he's seen this as a way to "infiltrate" and change the theological base of it

[Aaron637]

meh, im arguing with my old self. hardened in ur views. as long as u believe on chris for salvation....just dont go calling people heretics cause they are reformed. Reformed theology is orthodox not arminian....arminian theology was a mere protest against reformation preaching. Study the reformation....the catholics view of justification and u'll come to appreciate what the reformers preached. They guarded grace against a faith + works justification.

[apollos6640]

Piper you HYPOCRITE! In another video he mentiones that if an ARMINIAN Pastor were to be involved in a REFORMED church that he should just LEAVE. But here he says that if its a REFORMED pastor at an ARMINIAN Church, that He should stay and CONVERT everybody! Pipers using Double Standards, now I see his TRUE agenda.! "I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you... and among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."

[prairiemark]

@apollos6640 The problem with any kind of hard core Christian Fundamentalism that has a ridgid systematic theology is that they are so sure they are right, they don't worry too much about ethics. I was in a Congregational church that had a Covenant theology doctrinal statement. The congregation called four dispensational pastors in a row to be their pastor from about 1952 to 1975. They allowed the pastors to preach their conscience even if it didnt agree with the churches history....then..

[prairiemark]

@prairiemark In 1970 the pastor thought he had enough votes and support. He called a constitutional convention by majority vote of the Congregation....changed the church constitution to be dispensational, outlawed Covenant theology and turned the government over to the elders and excluded the congregation for decision making. It was a sad, sad thing to see.

[Aaron637]

@apollos6640 What? that God actually elects people? that salvaion is actually of grace not of human effort?

[johe64]

That is me. Although I am not in pastoral ministry, I am a member of the Church of the Nazarene, but hold a more Reformed view of Biblical doctrine. I have made my position clear to my pastor, and he said basically, the same thing that John Piper said near the end, not to "push" my doctrine. I see both aspects in God's Word, but see the Reformed side much more strongly asserted in it. I became more "Reformed" by reading the Bible and listening to Dr. John MacArthur's sermons... he is great!

[TCMAO0]

@johe64 Don't compromise - Arminians worship a false God. The God of the bible is a Calvinistic God!

[outofthebox7]

@johe64

Armenians are many times wrong but reformed theology is demonic. Type this on G bar i p e r t i s a l i t h i a s . g r / p a g e 5 . (without spaces in between)and click on the 1st one on top, then read: How not to fall into Calvinism's deception.

You can also read there: A refutation of Phil Johnson's "Clarifying Calvinism

[madblaa]

Oh my, imagine if this man's intelligence was put into something worthwhile instead of a figment of imagination?

[desasterz]

What are arminins?

[Brightstar27]

Not very good that he seems to imply that Arminian people have a "lower" view of God's glory and might. I strongly disagree!!

[HeReformedMe]

@Brightstar27 "Not very good that he seems to imply that Arminian people have a "lower" view of God's glory and might. I strongly disagree!!"

Does God aim to save His people and succeed? Or does God aim to save everyone and fail?

This is the fundamental difference between Arminians, and those that hold to the Reformed view. How one answers these questions, I think, is the indicator of where we fit in.

God bless

[utumano]

@HeReformedMe No the fundamental difference is thus: 'Is God ultimately the source of all evil and suffering?' Necessetarian determinism ultimately leads to "Yes" and therefore God would become a sinner and this would befuddle His justice and holiness. Arminianism upholds the purity, love, holiness and true justice of God and correctly expresses what the Sovereignty of God means. It shows God to be fully gracious, fully wise and fully mighty, and a true gentleman, the Prince of Peace.

[HeReformedMe]

@utumano " Necessetarian determinism ultimately leads to "Yes"

Can we agree that Adam and Eve had the ability to choose between obedience and disobedience?

[Brightstar27]

@HeReformedMe Hi ("utumano" was actually me on my brother's acocunt!). Of course Adam and Eve had the liobertarian capacity to choose not to sin, but they chose to come into condemnation of their own accord, byt the work of Satan, and nothing to do with God. But I will not get into that. I still hold to my claim below. Talen logically and consistently, Calvinism MUST make God the source of all sin ans suffering, which occurs only for His pleasure. This is profoundly mistaken. YHWH is righteous.

[Thinkinginstead]

@utumano " a true gentleman"

So a "true gentleman" would not predestine anyone to hell, but he would damn anyone who never even had a chance to hear the gospel??

[bigbadwolff1]

@utumano

To say God is "ultimately" the source of evil is to misrepresent the opposing viewpoint, by falslely injecting a conclusion that doesnt exist.

1)However you cut it evil is present, did it get by the fully wise, sovereign, and mighty God?

2) How would God be a sinner by creating the ability for sin to exist, by the free will of Adam?

3)What exactly does "true gentleman" mean? How does such a term ,a concept not taught in Scripture, get jammed in with the attributes of God?

[Thinkinginstead]

@HeReformedMe Actually, God aims to save all people and will succeed. But you are correct that "how one answers these questions... is the indicator of where we fit in." Do we tell the world that God is trying but will fail? Do we tell them that God does not love them all? OR, do we tell them that God DOES love everyone and that He will NOT fail to redeem everyone?

Where do you fit in?

[HeReformedMe]

@Thinkinginstead So, are you a universalist?

Let's say I'm a "good" Muslim, or a "good" Buddhist...

What happens to me when I die?

[Thinkinginstead]

@HeReformedMe God saves you just as he would anyone else - by GRACE. Or do you believe in salvation by works as you seem to be implying here?

[HeReformedMe]

@Thinkinginstead "Where do you fit in?" I approach the Bible with a Calvinistic view of scripture. I believe that God, before the foundations of the Earth chose to redeem a people. Not all people, but His people. Jer.24:7 Is.53:12 Matt.26:27,28 Matt.1:21 Acts 20:28 Jn.10:10,11 Eph.5:25:27 Gal.3:13 Rom.3:23-26 Jn.19:30

[Thinkinginstead]

@HeReformedMe "I believe that God, before the foundations of the Earth chose to redeem a people. Not all people, but His people."

So you "fit in" as one who would tell his neighbors that God does NOT love them all. In what way is that "good" news?

[HeReformedMe]

@Thinkinginstead I didn't say that God has no love for the those who are perishing. Those who perish, do so based on thier own choice to rebel against God, and what He accomplished on the cross. In as much as God is a God of love, He is also a God of justice. Justice will not be denied to those who reject Him. Likewise grace will not be denied to those who receive mercy.

The question we must answer is, "who initiates the salvation process?" Is it God's choice, or is it sinful mans choice?

[filoIII]

@HeReformedMe It's simple--The Holy Spirit draws all men Jn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 2Pet 3:9 The Lord is... longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. --calvinism is chock full of heresy

[Aaron637]

@filoIII problem is not all come....though it says all would come. Thats a significant problem.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 explain please

[Aaron637]

@filoIII christ said if he was lifted up he would draw all men unto himself. Arminians use this to say that means the world....yet if that was so, literally all people would accept the gospel....the majority dont. that was my point.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 The Holy Spirit draws all men to repentance.  That doesn't mean all men will come to repentance. There's a choice to be made to receive or reject that drawing.

[Aaron637]

@filoIII well said. In the end though we choose god or he chooses us. Ones will dominates...and the bible sides with God....some one is in control. If man chooses, God is not sovereign...and prayers to him are useless if he cant touch a mans will...and give him a new heart as the scripture says. History is written by men not God.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 I'm choosing to write my name 3 times backwards. Does that mean God's not sovereign? De 30:15-18a See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments...But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away...I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish--sounds like a choice to me.

[Aaron637]

@filoIII no it means God sovereignty laid it on ur heart to do that. and u did it.

[Aaron637]

@Aaron637 sorry man, im baiting u...i shouldnt :P. i used to be an arminian for 5yrs dont worry. I know the arguments and scripture. Not really up for an argument.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 So God is making me scratch my nose right now?

[Aaron637]

@filoIII scratch away.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 So you"re telling me God is MAKING me put my watch on right now? Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.--Sounds as if they all had a choice. How am I reading this wrong?

[Aaron637]

@filoIII Rom 11:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: “ God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”

9 And David says: “ Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. ...

[Aaron637]

@filoIII ...rom:11

... 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,  And bow down their back always.”

Clearly God hardended their hearts so they didnt come to him. Even if He did this by simply passing over them and not using his Spirit to give them new hearts....it accounts to the same thing, because of gods intentional inaction on their part they will perish...but the true cause is their own sin. Christ said he came so the blind could see and those who see would be blind.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 God was granting their wish to not follow Him. They chose spiritual blindess, and God granted their choice. Verses b4 that tell of those who had not turned from Him.

[Aaron637]

You quote one scripture as if thats all that is ever written. U use one scripture and build a philosophy on it, twisting and negating many scriptures that openly disagree with ur philosophy for ur own ends. U see what u want to see, not what is written. Man did have t choose thatday, as we do to....but in the end what we choose is totally dependent on God...if he gives us a new heart (ezk) we repent and choose him, if he leaves us to ourselves we are hardened in sin.

[Aaron637]

@filoIII rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

EMPHASIS ON GOD RESERVING MEN. its by his grace and mercy we're saved not our effort.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 This 7000 God reserved were of the Jewish nation who belong to his redeemed people, and to whom his promises to Abraham of spiritual blessings, were made.

[Aaron637]

And if u say "thats not fair". Man that is the very essence of grace. Not deserving and not getting what we actually deserve. Fair would be for all of us to go to hell. The gospel isnt preached to every person alive, some literally never get a chance to ...as u would say, have a free choice to turn to God and be saved. thats when arminians introduce crap like "well maybe some good heathens will be saved"....no, unless a man believes on Christ the perish in their sins. He alone saves.

[Aaron637]

@Aaron637 and how is that not even a form of election in and of itself? God could have used angels if he wished to preach the gospel to the four corners of the globe so all could have a chance....but he didnt.

[Aaron637]

@Aaron637 Why didnt he? because he soveriegnly controls the world and men, and will ensure those he has elected in his grace will have the gospel preached to them and at that time he will give them a heart of flesh and remove their heart of stone. The will believe and be saved.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 Lu 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.--Is that possible? That the stones will cry out?

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 Rom 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse--That's why natives sacrifice animals-they know

[Aaron637]

@filoIII they dont know about christ man. Seriously....sin maybe but not the gospel. Romans 10 says thats why we must preach to the nations. How can they hear without preaching? How can they hear is no one is sent?....how then can they be saved? Its belief on Jesus Christ that saves....not being sorry or killing animals for forgiveness. that opens the gates for 'universalism'

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 Is it possible the muslims coming out saying they had dreams/visions that Jesus is God and the only way to heaven, & then convert, are actually telling the truth? What do you as a calvinist say about this?

[Aaron637]

@filoIII Firstly, im a christian, thats how i define myself....my theology is reformed....I agree with the reformers' interpretation of the bible. What do i say about Muslims coming to Christ because he appears to a few of them? Praise God! They are converted just like Paul was...Christ literally appearing to them. My point wasnt that God doesnt preach the gospel himself to some...as in that case, but that while he has the power to, he refrains from preaching to all.How is that not electing?

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 Rev7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb-This seems to refute what you said about not everyone hearing the gospel. I believe God wants all men to come to repentance. You don't. We're done.

[Aaron637]

@filoIII Whatever man...universalism is a lie. People will go to hell...why? for not trusting in christ and dying in their sins. Not all hear the gospel, thats why we preach it. That is so evident...especially in revelations that u quoted "and whoevers name was not written in the lambs book of life has his part in the lake of fire."

As i said before, u come to scripture with preconceived ideas of god and make scripture match ur view....instead of letting scripture sculpt ur view of Him.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 I agree. Universalism is a lie. Unfortunately, the road to hell is broad and wide, & most will CHOOSE to take this road by rejecting Jesus. G'day.

[Aaron637]

*Christ not chris for salvation.

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 Careful when you lump everyone into your sterotype. Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.--That's my belief. None are good.

[Aaron637]

@filoIII "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48)

[filoIII]

@Aaron637 Amen! Sing it!

[Aaron637]

@filoIII Do u mean literal Jew or as in acusing me to be like a jew in the bible? How does that even relate to our discussion?

[Aaron637]

@filoIII or are u implying the new covenant was made only to jews? Paul says in romans we are jews who are circumcised in the heart, not outwardly born one in the flesh.....i think its contrasted in gal 3, ishmael was the son of the flesh, Issac of the promise. Ur not a jew outwardly, but inwardly...and a partaker of the promise of abraham.

[Aaron637]

@filoIII

John 6

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore EVERYONE who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me.

[HeReformedMe]

@Thinkinginstead Hey there my friend. Just a side note. But this format is crippling sometimes in terms of typing space. If you are interested, I have no problem with P.M.'s So if you'd like to get more in depth on the subject of Calvinism, my offer is open to you.

If not, but you still are interested in what it is we believe, see the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Good day, and God bless.

[Thinkinginstead]

@HeReformedMe "But this format is crippling sometimes in terms of typing space. If you are interested, I have no problem with P.M.'s "

I completely agree. Please feel free to respond with a PM. I will save my response to your other comments for then.

And yes, I have read the Westminster Confession of Faith, and many other "traditions of men." But I prefer to rely on the Bible instead - no disrespect intended.

[RMCDisciple]

God's perfect timing. I needed to heart this message. Thank you.

[lauddyboi]

i found this helpful as it applies to me i think. do you think his advice would be the same for somebody not actually in any "pastoral office" per say ?

[therealdrag0]

Word. I think it still applies, if not more. If you're not in an office it matters less if your theology is the same as the church, but you also have more freedom to change churches. I think it depends how old you are and what your short term and long term goals are. While in Collage I'm sticking with the Armenian church I've always known and is my familly, but when I go into the world I'll change to a reformed church. =]

[810suited]

@openairpreacher - Listen, Jesus' atonement are every sin of his people. Amen to repentance, Amen to God's people ceasing to sin..... does it happen? No. Jesus Christ took our sin away, we are perfect in the sight of God, because of the blood of His Son, I still sin, but I am broken over my sin, because I am born again, and God gave me a new heart.

[openairpreacher]

@810suited

born again people do not commit sin

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him

Love Jesus and Stop sinning

[Brightstar27]

Yes we still sin, and I think the discerning heart of a true believer is this;

Regret of one's sin.

If we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us of our guilt, if indeed the Holy Speirit dwells within us. Once we start falling into the trap of "I believe in Christ already therefore I

[Brightstar27]

[from my other comment I posted earily accidently!!]

... Once we start falling into the trap of "I believe in Christ already therefore I need not repent" I think we are stepping into a terribly dark error. Belief in Christ means obedience to Him (John 14). Why else would we pray "Our father... forgive us our sins..." in the Lord's Prayer?

[Eldoor]

@Brightstar27 we may still sin but we definitely do not live in sin. If someone is living in sin they are not saved. the bible clearly states that.

[robertpiercy]

Thank you.