Super Tense Oval Office Moment on the West Wing

[MultiPurdy]

Surely this scene reflects almost exactly what happened when President Reagan was shot? Didn't the Sec of State claim that he was 'in charge', although constitutionally, he wasn't. However, nearly everyone who mattered was in the Situation Room and the VP was on his way back to Washington.

There's truth in this scene.

[8corporal]

Wow, forgott how good a scene this was. I wonder how it was for Clinton during his impeachment, and the attitude, feelings and uncertainty of the West Wing staffers towards him during this time, just as tense no doubt. As TV is full of reality `dumb down the population` crap today, I think my West Wing box set will be re-called into active entertainment duty! `They` just don`t write such drama as good today!

[egzy101]

how great is this programme that people will debate points of policy from a fictional president.

[Magnetohydrodynamics]

"For ninety minutes there was a COUP D'ETAT IN THIS COUNTRY."

[histre101]

@Magnetohydrodynamics and under the constitution, he was right...he was speaking to power, bravo Toby.

[step5732]

Love Toby!

[Kasino80]

When Toby is told initially I think he is genuinely frightened for the President, afterwards he's doing his job. He's in charge of the message of the white house and he's trying to get a hold on this cataclysmic event. And Bartlett really is a jack-ass here. He's really mostly pissed with himself but takes out on Toby...a case of misdirected anger.

[scarred2112]

...and a decade later I *still* use the "I'll bet all the money in my pockets..." phrase, this episode was so well written, acted, directed, et al.

And the best we have now on Network Television is "Dancing With D-Listers". Thank Christ for AMC and "Mad Men" & "Breaking Bad".

[nonsensicalcompound]

1:16 Actually, that's "Doctor" Bartlett.

[scarred2112]

@nonsensicalcompound While I agree that Abbey *is* "Dr. Bartlett (actually, they both are ;-) and the exact point was brought up by her in the bunch of episodes following this one, in this case when Jed is attempting to deflect Toby's attention on her treatment of his MS, calling her "Doctor Barlett" wouldn't exactly be the best/smartest thing to do.

[bornbillsmith]

I would say the President was incapable of being objective because if he was

he would have told his staff about his illness and not keep it a secret.

Because he can't be objective he can not accept what Toby is telling him even though he should know better.

[Peter24601]

Toby's concerns are legit, but insensitive. The situation he was referring to didn't have anything to do with MS and it looked like he cared more about law than he did about his leaders health.

[Ares99999]

@Peter24601 Well, thats not exactly true. Toby cared, he was just angry he didn't know. And to people like Toby, knowledge is power. Had Toby known, he'd have likely made sure that Bartlett was covered in every direction. But Toby, when angry, also tends to get ahead of himself and voice good points in the most abrasive ways. I think he didn't want to hurt Bartlett with his tirade, but he wanted to make his point. And Toby is incapable of diplomacy. He is, after all, a self-described pain.

[jimbopumbapigsticks]

Bartlet pissed me off in this scene. This is a crazy situation for him to put Toby in and acting all huffy because Toby's asking questions is dickish on his part.

[auggieu1]

You guys know that the whole "letter" thing is just for story boards sake, right? There doesn't actually need to be a signed letter to transfer power from the President to the Vice President in the event something happens. Sorry, The West Wing is amazing, but it's still just a show.

[FreedInsanity]

@auggieu1 The third section of Twenty-Fifth amendment does state that - unless physically incapable or dead - the President must formally transfer his power to the VP via a letter written to the Speaker of the House and Pro tempore.

Toby's concern is that the gunshot wound could be equivalent to a major MS attack, and may render Bartlett unable to sign a letter before receiving anesthesia. For a healthy President, this would be an easy transfer of power, and isn't considered incapacitation.

[Hilius8]

@FreedInsanity But under the fourth section of the 25th amendment, the VP and a majority of the Cabinet can temporarily transfer power to the VP if the president is incapable. That's what should have happened in this case (and what should have happened during the Reagan assassination attempt which this scenario is closely modelled on).

[FreedInsanity]

@Hilius8 "Incapacited" did not include voluntary anesthesia, and thus the President would have to relinquish power via a written letter. Now, had Bartlet fainted or died from the bullet wound, the Speaker of the House would declare him incapacitated, and promoted the VP on his behalf. But because Bartlet was fully conscious when he went under, and didn't formerly relinquish his authority, no clear transfer of power took place.

Just my interpretation, though.

[jesusthroughmary]

@FreedInsanity "Incapacitated" isn't the threshold in the Constitution. It's "The President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office", which can mean whatever the VP and a majority of the Cabinet want it to mean. Either the President or the Cabinet can declare an inability to exist at any time for any reason.

[Nonsensei436]

@FreedInsanity Its true, but the big hole in this whole plot line is that he was conscious, and Leo could have just given him a pad of paper and a pen before going under. There was no reason that couldnt have been done. FFS Bartlet was cracking jokes, i think he could have written "i relinquish my power to the Vice President for the duration of my Anesthesia signed President Bartlet."

[FreedInsanity]

@Nonsensei436 Unless, of course, Bartlett and/or McGary had no plans of relinquishing the President's power directly to John Hoynes.

[histre101]

@Nonsensei436 having been shot...seriously?? You expect the guy to write something under this??? Sorry,not buying it....

[Nonsensei436]

@histre101 So he can tell a joke but he cant move his fingers? Fuck, he could just have someone else write it and then just sign his name.

[tfn105]

It's interesting to see how unrepentant Bartlett is about concealing his M.S., or at least, how defiant he was in defending his actions at this point. When you get around to his censure in season 3, he's been through the realisation that what he did was wrong, even if his intentions were benign.

[YNot1989]

Toby was right, and Bartlet was not fit for command.

[donnabalsdon]

I had the privilege of meeting Richard Schiff on Thursday evening, after he performed in Smash! at The Menier Chocolate Factory in London and he was kind enough to autograph alongside Toby's monologue (2.15 onwards) in my copy of The West Wing Script Book. Being the very lovely, very humble person that he his, he THANKED me, in his inscription for "listening to this long monologue" and I can tell you - and reading the comments on here I'm sure you'll agree - I feel like the privileged one!

[platinumsalamander]

i love the "all the money in my pocket" speech by toby

[homris]

It took me a while to get behind the character of Toby, but moments like these were what bought me over. His likeability is much more subtle than that of Josh and Sam, and he's best in the super-tense scenes like this one and the ones with Andy.

[luv2live2]

This was Toby at his best, at his strongest. The later Toby, the Toby that leaked important information, not the same guy. He owned this scene

[Jessica1608]

@luv2live2 Toby just wouldn't have leaked. Richard Schiff later said that he didn't believe it was something Toby would do either and he had arguments with the writers and stuff.

[bishop2100]

The thing that always strikes me about this scene is that Bartlet is totally defensive about what Toby's asking him. With each question, his defenses and sarcasm increase because he knows Toby is right. Listen to the list of things that Toby's rattling off...all of those things (including nuclear weapons) were happening while the President was incapacitated and Leo was "in charge." Toby may not have been "politically correct" in terms of ticking off his boss, but it doesn't mean he was wrong.

[Ares99999]

@bishop2100 Leo was easily as competent as Bartlett, something the President pointed out - and that other characters agreed with, indirectly or plainly.

What strikes ME is this extremely sarcastic answer from the President "And the walls came tumbling down!". This pointed out the inherent flaw in Toby's over-the-top rant: Leo being in charge for a few minutes did not in any way mean that there was a "Coup d'État" (!!), and having Leo in charge wouldn't bring about the collapse of the USA.

[bishop2100]

@Ares99999 It doesn't matter how competent Leo was. As Toby correctly states, Leo wasn't elected, so Constitutionally, he can't make any sort of command decisions and, given the President's diminished capacity that night, that's what Leo was doing. "Coup d'etat" is hyperbolic since the change in power wasn't an overthrow, but it's also true. Power changed hands to someone who wasn't authorized to have it. It should have passed to the VP or, as was seen later, to the Speaker of the House.

[Ares99999]

@bishop2100 I think Leo's level of competence - which is high enough that Bartlett more than once thought Leo should have run for President - does matter. The fact of the matter is that, compared to the VP or the Speaker, Leo was more competent to deal with the crisis for the SHORT time Bartlett was indisposed. It ensured that no confusion ensued.

Leo was appointed by a guy who was elected. Lets trust the decisions of the guy we elected to appoint the right people.

[tfn105]

@Ares99999 In this instance, though, the President was only in hospital for a few hours. And if you see the scene in the Sit Room, there was a lot of uncertainty as to who was in charge - the nervous glances between Leo and Hoynes demonstrate this - the VP didn't know if he had any authority. Toby wasn't arguing the exact situation, he was arguing the principle, which is all Toby ever did. There's a bigger point at stake.

[Ares99999]

@tfn105 And what is the bigger point, if you consider that a president, being a public figure, can haver an attack and be hospitalized, thus creating the same situation even without MS? What was the principle? That sick people, despite being truly competent, shouldn't hold high offices? Why was Toby on his high horse?

[tfn105]

@Ares99999 Bartlet wasn't 'sick', he had a disease that could potentially compromise his ability to command without showing visible symptoms. That's quite serious. And the larger point that Toby was making was that Bartlet lied his way into office. Bartlet didn't do this maliciously - but nevertheless he did conceal his disease from the public, and are you telling me it wouldn't have impacted his original election victory?

[Ares99999]

@tfn105 Roosevelt was dying in 1944 and we still elected him. I'm telling you that Bartlet would still have won. Leo would have backed him up, and Leo's incredible at getting things done. Are you telling me Toby wouldn't have backed him up had he come clean?

Besides, you're telling me Toby is telling Bartlett something he already knows, years after the fact. He's not making a point. He's being spiteful. Because he's pissed he didn't find out.

[tfn105]

@Ares99999 Err... Bartlet won only just - he didn't win with the popular vote. He squeezed over the line. And in today's society, yes, I do think it would have changed the result. Of course Toby is pissed off that he never knew.

Roosevelt got the nod inspite of his illnesses because he had lead the country through World War II - of course he was successful.

I'm not saying Bartlet couldn't hold office with MS, but the situations are very different.

Anyway, I don't see Toby as the spiteful type

[Ares99999]

@tfn105 All good points. I agree with you.

[RoninW86]

I think the only person who's indignation is so covered in crap in this scene was Bartlett. He knows the severity of what happened and what is happening and he is just frustrated with it. Toby represents the "everyman" in this show and this is how, at least initially, without any real forethought and some minor information, how they would react.

[Ares99999]

@RoninW86 Thus you're pretty much saying that the 'everyman' would react incredibly stupidly?

What did Toby achieve besides ONCE AGAIN antagonizing his boss? Did he say anything the others didn't know. Was it meaningful? Was it going to change anything?

No. He was pissed and he ranted like a spoiled kid.

Bartlett was right to eventually fire that kind of hypocrite.

[bishop2100]

@Ares99999 I think you're missing the point of Toby's rant.  If I remember this scene correctly, this occurs before Bartlet's announcement to the world that he has MS. To me, what Toby is representing is all of the questions that the press and public are going to ask. It took Toby a few days of thinking and connecting dots to get to this point with President Bartlet. If he could do it, he absolutely knew the press could, too, and the public relations and legal nightmares that would cause.

[Ares99999]

@bishop2100 And yet Bartlett was re-elected in a landslide.

Which means: Toby, you're an ass as usual. Shut up. The people, unlike you, can recognize talent and can actually see reality.

[bishop2100]

@Ares99999 You're confusing the public's reality with the actual reality. Politics are based on the public not knowing everything that's going on. That's what made this show great; it could actually teach people through drama. Bartlet later apologized to the staff for getting them involved in the MS scandal in the first place. Months after Toby's ranting at him, Bartlet finally stood up and admitted he was wrong. You may think Toby's an ass, but in the final analysis, he was also right.

[Ares99999]

@bishop2100 On certain points, yes, he was right. But he was also grossly exaggerating by the last half of his argument.

[tobiojo10]

"I'll be all the money in my pockets, against all the money in yours, that it was leo; WHO NO ONE ELECTED! one of the best ever scenes of this programme

[nascarkraz]

its minor but that usage of the clock was genius. this episode, season and show was the best!

[doubleg137]

@nascarkraz  That ten seconds of silence is so damn tense, and you're right about the clock ticking.. when its the only thing that is heard its like a heartbeat.

[ImperatorDominus]

They are both right....

[fidelio1980]

I'm shocked that people think Toby was being petty or arrogant. It would have been nice if he had asked about Bartlet's comfort, but in light of what he'd just heard, of course he'd have bigger concerns.

There's a reason we saw Bartlet ignore Toby's points, and question his motivations instead - there wasn't much he COULD say in response to Toby's points. Bartlet was petty and whiny when he knew he was wrong.

Leo's eyes say it all - Toby's just opened them to the depth of the scandal.

[Ovrkyl]

@fidelio1980 Right on all points. Toby didn't have time for niceties, he was concerned that the leader of the country was compromised and had been during a time of crisis. As the communications director, he knew it would be a PR nightmare at best if word got out without a gameplan on how to handle it, not to mention his own concerns and the fact that his confidence in the leadership just got rocked. It wasn't that he felt left out, it was that his trust in Jed and Leo had been betrayed.

[Reqrezentin]

I just watched this scene and ...

"The walls came tumbling down"

What drama, what work. Bravo.

[Ares99999]

Best line in the entire scene were two words:

"SHUT UP!"

About time someone got the self-important Toby to do exactly that.

[2026Walker]

@Ares99999 anyone who thinks that toby is arrogant should remember that in shadow of two gunmen he wanted to stop the secret service from making it look like they had screwed up protecting bartlett (Toby had told the secret service not to use a canopy that would have blocked the view of the president from the shooters), I think that even though toby has high moral standards he hold himself to them and feels responsible for his actions, which could hardly be said to be arrogant

[fredocarroll]

@Ares99999 Toby is self-important, but the only relevant point here is that is he is right. The US Constitution does not delegate executive authority to the Chief of Staff, or to the Nat Sec Adviser, or anyone except the Vice President, and the rest of the presidential succession as mandated by Congress. Whether the CoS is a de-facto executive day-to-day is irrelevant: the President rules, and if he cannot, then only the VP has the authority as the nation's chief executive. Toby was spot on.

[Ares99999]

@fredocarroll You make no sense. There was no Coup D'État. And Leo is no traitor. Don't spout constitutional nitpicking to cover up Toby's huge blunder.

[fredocarroll]

@Ares99999 Nobody accused Leo of being a traitor, and the phrase "coup d'etat" is a somewhat histrionic touch. I concede that it is not, per se, a coup. However, it is not "constitutional nitpicking" to say that Leo McGarry being in charge was a violation of the Constitution. The Chief of Staff has no authority to act as the President if the President is injured. To suggest that it is just being picky is to ignore the importance of the rule of law, Toby's larger point.

[Ares99999]

@fredocarroll Compared to some violations of the Constitution which have been documented over the years, and knowing that Leo is as morally sound as men can get, I think I'm fully willing to give Bartlett and Leo a break. Bartlett's comment 'And the walls came tumbling down' pretty much states how ridiculous Bartlett found all this.

Besides, Toby's the man who revealed Classified Information in the end. Doesn't that make him a hypocrite here?

[ImperatorDominus]

@Ares99999 He did it to save his brother.

[Ares99999]

@ImperatorDominus Absolutely. But its a still a case where emotion clouded one's judgement. All I'm saying is that Toby could have cut Bartlett and Leo some slack. After all, its Bartlett who has to live with the disease every day.

[bornbillsmith]

@Ares99999

Excuse me but he did it because there were lives on the line and only the military's shuttle was there to saver them

To me that's not bring a traitor.

It's being a human being who can't accept the death of someone if something can be done to save therm.

[Ares99999]

@bornbillsmith There is a huge difference between a hypocrite and a traitor. I said Toby showed hypocrisy - he's not above clearly violating rules and laws when it suits him - and yet accused Bartlett of it.

However, one must say that Toby was rather badly-written in the last season.

[Ares99999]

@movieking88 No. I don't see how Toby has major points. It was largely Toby being arrogant here.

[boneyardbill]

@movieking88--I also hated the way Toby's arc went in the last 2 seasons. However, I cannot say it didn't make sense. This scene's a perfect demonstration of Toby's towering arrogance and his presumed moral superiority. Bartlett was one man he nominally accepted as his intellectual and moral peer, but after this, he dismissed him as inferior. Later on, he simply "takes over" reforming Social Security against orders. Toby consistently demonstrated his feeling that he alone knew what was best.

[JuiceIsLoose22]

can someone please upload the end of this episode when toby says "17 people, You knew".... LOVE that scene

[jennyinjapan]

@JuiceIsLoose22

The best line of the scene...It was 17 people by the way. You. you knew". GENIUS.

[Ares99999]

@jennyinjapan Also the most spiteful line in the scene. He just wanted to have the last word. A jerk.

[jiveturkey25]

What was the episode this clip was from?

[J12X]

Under the 25th Amendment, the President can be removed from power by action of the Vice-President and a majority of the principal officers of the Executive Branch -- that is, BOTH the Vice-President AND a majority of the principal officers must agree. In such an instance, the Vice-President would then become Acting President.

[histre101]

@J12X and in this series that did not happen. that would occur under extraordinary circumstances,...go read about Woodrow Wilson and then come back an speak about what happens.

[J12X]

@histre101 If you are speaking of President Wilson's incapacitation, that would be a PERFECT example of what the Disability Clause of the 25th Amendment is about. Of course, the 25th Amendment wasn't ratifified until 1967. Had the 25th Amendment been in existance during the Wilson Administration, the Vice President and the Principal officers of the executive branch should have removed President Wilson from power, thereby making the Vice-President "Acting President"

[histre101]

@J12X there is no such thing as "acting president" according to the constitution. When the president is dead, that is the only time a vice president becomes president. Period.

[histre101]

The point though, having a letter, is you run the risk of someone pulling a "coup de tat".....the president does something and you don't agree with it.

People busted Al Haig's chops when Reagan was shot saying "he was in control"...if you watched TWW, then you will know about the Security Act of 1947. He wasn't wrong to say that, even though the Secy of Defense isn't third in the line of succession according to the constitution.

[J12X]

@histre101 Mr. Haig was Secretary of State at the time of the assassination attempt on President Reagan and as Secretary of State he was the highest ranking cabinet official. Although it came out completely wrong, what he was trying to say is that pending the return of Vice President Bush, Secretary Haig was the senior official at the White House. Secretary Haig wanted to formally transfer power to Vice-President Bush and he, as senior official present, was trying to start that process.

[histre101]

@J12X and as if you understand the act of 1947 that puts the secretary of defense in charge.....you don't know "in the moment" that an attack on the US president isn't part of an attack on the US...that's the point. The other point is that in the line of succession it is the Vice President then the Speaker of the House (not the secretary of state). The secretary of state does not have the power to do quat. I sorely wish civics were still taught in the US.

[J12X]

@histre101 Whats with the nastiness? I never said that the Secretary of State was next in the line of sucession. I said that the Secreatary of State was the Senior Cabinet Official and that was the position that Mr. Haig held at that time. Under the 25th Amendment, the Vice-President and a majority of the principal officers of the Executive Branch can remove the President from power. Mr. Haig, as Secretary of State, was part of that process and that is what he was trying to do.

[J12X]

@histre101 The National Security Act of 1947 establishes that Secretary of Defense is Second in Command of the United States Military. At a moment when the President is alive but unable to give any orders, the Secreatary of Defense is in charge of the Military. However, once Presidential power is formally transferred to the Vice-President as "Acting President" (as Secretary Haig was trying to do) then the Vice-President as "Acting President" becomes Commander-In-Chief of the Military.

[histre101]

@J12X Secy Haig wasn't doing that at all....there is no "acting president"...either you are or you aren't. And only the president is commander in chief. And the act doesn't say that at all, but nice try.

[histre101]

@J12X sorry no.....the national security act of 1947 is not specific and was enacted because of a new invention called the "football". The vice president does not become commander in chief under the circumstances you describe. Haig was not transferring "presidential power" at the time because he did not have the authority to do so....I remember it quite well btw. I also remember quite well when a president is assassinated and a vice president actually becomes president because of that.

[J12X]

@histre101 Please read the 25th Amendment. In it, you will find a description of the several circumstances under which someone can become "Acting President" It is common practice that when the President goes under anethesia, that the 25th Amendment is used to transfer Presidential Power to the Vice-President who then serves as "Acting President" (including the powers of Commander-In-Chief). When the President then comes out of the anethesia, presidential power is then passed back to him.

[J12X]

@histre101 Please read the 25th Amendment. In it, you will find a description of the several circumstances under which someone can become "Acting President" It is common practice that when the President goes under anethesia, that the 25th Amendment is used to transfer Presidential Power to the Vice-President who then serves as "Acting President" (including Commander-In-Chief). When the President then comes out of the anethesia, presidential power is then passed back to him.

[histre101]

@J12X that's the interpretation "acting president". Legally you are or you aren't president. I am well aware,that presidents go under anesthesia. It also stipulates that it is the vice president and speaker of the house, not the secretary of state, that enacts process unlike your previous statements about Haig.

[J12X]

@histre101 Once again, I'd ask you read the 25th Amendment. OBVIOUSLY, and contrary to what you've said several times, there is such a thing as an "Acting President" -- a position that has all the powers of being President, but is NOT the same thing as being President. Insted of posting gibberish to confuse the issue why don't you simply admit you made a mistake on that point.

[J12X]

@histre101 Please also read the 25th Amendment with respect to process by which a President can be removed from power. In doing so, you will note that the Speaker of the House has absolutely no role in making that determination. That determination is made by the Vice-President and the Principle Officers of the Executive Branch. That OBVIOUSLY includes the Secretary of State, but it does NOT include the Speaker of the House. Just read the Amendment. This isn't that difficult

[histre101]

Roosevelt was never seen in a wheelchair btw.

[histre101]

You never saw Roosevelt in a wheelchair. Polio was quite debilating in its time. Google "iron lung" and have a good luck.

[histre101]

So if society decides that those who have ms, diabetes, asthma, heart disease, etc. are only "allowed" to do work in limited positions, who pays?? Stephen Hawking is very limited, yet look at what he does.

[TheTibetanMonk]

From 4:16 to 4:38, Barlett OWNS.

[ShortStackB5]

Yes Bartlet owns for that 20 seconds. But Toby owns for the whole scene. Toby was right. Toby knows it. Bartlet and Leo know it. Their silence after Tobys "I bet all the money in my pockets" comment says it all.

[Ares99999]

@ShortStackB5 I don't see how he owns the whole scene. He may have been right in theory, but thats it. What happened, happened, and it worked out. In the end, this was Toby's paranoia and total lack of trust in Bartlett and especially in Leo. A man with common sense would simply have shut the hell up.

[histre101]

@Ares99999 uh no...Toby was 100% right...simply because it "worked out" doesn't mean it's ok.

[Ares99999]

@ShortStackB5 For 90 minutes that night there was a Coup D'État in this country. What a load of utter crap. Leo is probably one of the most able men in the White House. Toby's distrust and paranoid ramblings can be disgusting. No wonder Bartlett got angry. This was ridiculous. No law, no system, works 100% all the time. Toby should get that much, but is incapable of grasping that fact.

[bornbillsmith]

@Ares99999 It lasted 90 minites but alot can happen in 90 minutes but more to the point when the 90 mintes began did they know it was going to be 90 minutes because if they didn't then they were lucky and you can't depend on luck.

[Ares99999]

@bornbillsmith Lets remember that the guys who handled the situation handled it damn well. Its not like they were incompetent fools. Luck has nothing to do with competent aides.

[bornbillsmith]

@Ares99999

They were lucky it only lated 90 minutes.

Going ino this period of time did they know how long it was going to last,

Competentcy is important even when the President is making those decisions.

The issue here is who is in power and do they have the right to be in charge

You're right that no system is perfect but if this period of time lasted more then ninety minutes then there would be a problem. and that's why I said they were lucky it only lasted that long.

[Ovrkyl]

@ShortStackB5 Exactly. Toby was right, 100% about every detail (including Leo actually giving the orders). This scene showed a massive loophole or weak spot in the system, the order of succession and transfer of power in a crisis situation.

A frightening "What if...?" scenario that the writing team grabbed and ran with.

[VesuvioBR]

EPIC.

[allmightantdawgs]

Briliant scene.

Thank you for the upload.

[mlc2005]

Brilliant.... Schiff was my fav. on the show (well, aside from Janney), and this is why. He stole every moment, and he could have been an unlikeable character, but instead he was the most lovable of them all, b/c he was so brilliant and passionate. Serious acting chops on top of it. His best moment is this, and season 4, episode "25," when he tells his buds "the babies were born." He was so awkward, yet so excited, and he had tears in his eyes. BRILLIANT, nuanced acting.

[ElvisPresleyAintDead]

I love Toby and Bartlett's relationship. It's so uncomfortable, so well directed and acted.

The fact that the scenes and episodes with them don't always end amicably is excellent, sometimes they're pissed at each other and they stay pissed at each other.

[nicklebackfan]

Every president needs someone like Toby who is willing to tell him things he doesn't want to hear. "Group Think" is a dangerous thing and leads to all sorts of bad decisions and disasters.

[GOldsteiN]

There's one thing that bothers me about the argument: Toby says "given your condition, and its lack of predictability, why there isn't simply a signed letter sitting in a file some place?" and then says because somebody would ask why. In reality, the letter should exist anyway, in case something happens such as the shooting. That would be the reason, not the disease. I don't see a reason why they couldn't have that letter in a drawer

[Derekivery]

I agree.

The truth is I don't know if they COULD have such a letter anyway, it would kind of defeat the purpose of the 25th amendment. The president is the president unless he dies or steps down.

The letter removes him from power and gives it to someone else, that's not the kind of thing you can just leave in a disk. What if the president is sent to the hosiptial for something, the VP is out of town, so the cleaning guy finds the letter and just adds his name to it "Hey I'm President."

[GOldsteiN]

Haha yeah, but the letter wouldn't say "give my powers to anyone holding this document," it would state clearly that under certain specific consequences, his power should be transferred to the VP

[Derekivery]

I guess that would work, but again would defeat the purpose of the 25th amendment. Since every president runs the risk of out of commission for various reasons there should be an official "here's who is incharge" rule. I guess a smart president would have "a letter" but they really shouldn't have to have one.

[TehCheese]

Does the letter not have to be dated? And if the letter was signed undated and then a date subsequently added, would that not invalidate the document?

[histre101]

@Derekivery presidents under surgery sign a letter transferring power until they recover to the vice president...that is what the episode refers to.

[tobiojo10]

@Derekivery I agree, dangerous precendence there! Just like in the scene where Margaret says she can copy the presidents signature! "Do you think the white house council would call that a bad idea? I think the white house counsel would call that a coup d'etat! We've got separation of power, checks and balances, and Margaret, vetoing things and sending them back to the hill!" haha

[bpeter3196]

The vp is the default in line especially if it's an unexpected emergency it would default to him no matter where he was or what he was doing secret service would rush him just like in the show when hoyes was interrupted with the girls basketball team & wisked away to safety. Same would happen even if he was in a meeting in Moscow or Saudi Arabia. If he wasn't able to do it or spot not filled it would go to the speaker of the house

[histre101]

The VP gets zip IF the president is still alive....that's the point. And just as the other episode shows (Security Act of 1947) is still in effect.

ps: Toby was spot on in this episode, though if you think about it, Roosevelt was stricken with polio yet was elected 4 times despite that fact.

[bpeter3196]

And my point was just like bartlet's toby wasnt mad because the president was sick he was mad simply for the fact he didnt known & president or not there are certain times where not everyone needs to known. Obviously as president your health is a big thing & part of the confidence & security blanket people need but toby & the others have no right to be as offended as they are CJ too. After all there is no exact rules on how much health info that must be given.. Even Oba Mao has said "health ok"

[bpeter3196]

Roosevelt shows that while being in a wheelchair could make him appear weak it or even polo didnt affect his being able to do the job especially for 16 years or whatever. Polo is before my time but I dont thing it was seen as fault even during Roosevelts time so him not sharing it was more about not appearing weak which isnt a bad reason to hide not that he should have just saying. Even the Obama doesnt give out details other then to claim being healthy.

[anubis9109]

@Derekivery It was explained in the series that their needed to be a letter because the 25th no long made it clear who would assume command under the situtation that the president was neither dead nor stepped down. When Bartlet was shot, he was still alive and hadn't relequished command to the VP, thus Leo McGary ruled the USA for about 90 minutes.

[Derekivery]

@anubis9109

Your point being?

My point being what is the point of having a line of succession when if their is a big ? as to who is in charge UNLESS the president signs a letter.

There should NOT be a rule of "if the president is out of commission for a period of time the country goes into chaos UNLESS the president signs a letter saying who is in charge." The rule should be "if the president is out the next in line takes charge UNLESS the President signs a letter saying otherwise."

[Disney312]

@Derekivery

The cleaning guy wouldn't be able to do that, constitutionally. The Presidential order of succession would prevent such as thing. Also, I believe there's a mechanism in place where the cabinet can deem the President not fit to serve, at which point the VP would take over. The signed letter just ensures that the intent of the president to turn over power in the event of such a thing is on file.

[LizzieDSSG]

@GOldsteiN  This is one of the most superbly written dialogues in the history of the series. However, I am very put off by Bartlett's arrogant, dismissive replies to Toby's legitimate concerns about who's in charge during a crisis. Remember, this character was from a very wealthy family. His snotty remarks (...."and the walls came tumbling down") are very typical of rich kids who've grown up thinking that they're above the law. I've known people like this all my life.

[TheRoarkSG]

@GOldsteiN

I believe what he says is "if there was letter, than someone would ask why". If you extend that line of thought, then the White House would need to answer the question, and either lie or reveal MS. If there is no letter, then they never get asked, and they aren't put in that situation.

[summerguy03]

think leo chewed toby out after that or just wanted to let them both cool off for a while?

[inertiaxxcreep]

The ticking clock during the tense silence is what really makes this scene art.

Brilliant stuff. Love it.

[phreakoutaston]

Toby was right. I respect that the fact he presented his arguments to the president.

[Achillesinhistent]

Let's see, webmd says MS randomly and without warning causes slowed thinking, decreased concentration, decreased memory, mental fatigue, sleepiness, or drowsiness.

Do you think the American people have the right to know they were voting for a president with a disease that might affect his decisions? Gee, sir, do you think we should invade Pakistan? Uh, sir?

[hypershadow647]

favorite moment of the series, thx

[bpeter3196]

Why is toby taking it so bad. Its none of his business. Toby is a moron & a jackass.

[asafindy]

It's none of his business? It's everyone's business.

Perhaps the people can move forward after getting an explanation but they still deserve to get the explanation.

[bpeter3196]

lol its no different the clinton saying the monica affair once he finally admitted it. My point was that he takes offense & like the president said "are you pissed because I have ms or are you pissed because 16 people knew before you". If a boss admits an affair sure there hurt or betrayal but you can get this mad over it. Toby acts like Barlett slept with his sister or some how did something directly to toby. He had no reason to get that worked up.

[fullmooneve]

it is nothing like clinton and lewinski because as far as i could imagine, getting a blow job off someone doesn't affect your decision capacities as president whilst the same cannot be said of a illness as MS. plus the whole problem with clinton surely had more to do with the lying rather than the act itself

[bpeter3196]

In the end though the issue he is impeach on is more the cover up & lieing then the fact that he was sick so again its not so different from Clinton or if Osama barak turned out to be Muslim or not a citizen.

[jeromeg137]

Great.. another birther... I wish he was a muslim, it would drive all the right wing more insane than they already are.

[nowhitply]

idiot

[bpeter3196]

LOL Wow that's brillant... I'm shocked you came up with that yourself.

[nicklebackfan]

@bpeter3196 The President of the United States, who has control over the nuclear launch codes and other important things, has a debilitating illness that could compromise his cognitive reasoning and decision-making abilities and it's "nobody else's business"? Sorry, but when you are commander-in-chief of the most powerful military force ever assembled, your health is everybody's business.

[bpeter3196]

@nicklebackfan not really given that that is the reason why they have a VP who was aware of the issue.

[nicklebackfan]

@bpeter3196 Unless the 25th amendment is invoked or the President is clinically dead, it doesn't matter what the VP knows or doesn't know. The President is in charge and thus it is important that the commander-in-chief be functional both mentally and physically. You can bet our enemies in the world (Iran, Russia, China) would take advantage of a situation created by a President who was incapacitated and still "in control".

[bpeter3196]

Toby is a moron......

[muscatinemusk]

"Murky at best"

"all the money in my pockets against..."

"and the walls came tumbling down"

I love Aaron Sorkin's writing so much. This is my favorite show, I own every season. I wish Sorking would write again and that he would be given immunity to use whatever he needs to as an aide to write. Brilliant

[nascarkraz]

well remembr AS did return to his nemisis NBC (Zucker CEO) with Studio 60. Another brilliant show that didn't get it's deserving chance.

[DERRICOTTE]

Awesome as always.

[GOP71]

The dreamer in me hopes every White House has someone who feels comfortable being Toby at that moment when such a thing arises. Only one is needed, though.

[bpeter3196]

LOL life happens that way it did after Reagan got shot

[bestirishfirefighter]

"SHUT UP!!!!"

[andreicmello]

This scene is the pefect example of what John Spencer is capable of doing without saying any words. What a talent. What an ensemble. I miss this show.

[dbassplayer]

"And the walls came tumbling down!"