You always have great vid responses, seems you always hit on additional & complimentary information. I certainly like the idea of my pc being low & being added to during the game. I find that much more rewarding.
@woodwwad The big problem with journey games is fumbling GMs, they can kill the whole idea for groups. Warhammer for example would be a lot less fun if all you ever are is the rat catch because the game doesn't last more than 3 sessions.
@Webhead123 oh absolutely, that's pretty much the only type of game I look to run. It is far more fun to have a character for a year or more than for 1 month.
@Catachan1brainleaf I think I was a bit clouded when I made my video. I think you're right that the real issue here is the "tone" or "story structure" of the game and whether or not the game assumes your character is already a hero or whether they are still on their "journey".
The element of playing a character that interests me most isn't the "powering up" effect of advancement but seeing how the PC is forced to grow/change in response to the story.
By "method" I mean "character creation method", whether random, semi-random or non-random. I like them all depending on what kind of game I'm playing.
Story is change, usually a change in the character of the protagonist. In a RPG, the PC is the protagonist. Whether the mechanical capabilities of the PC change or not, the PC will change - in order for there to be story. I feel like I'm missing something about this discussion?
@boltorange You're completely right and that was what I was attempting to communicate when I mentioned Spirit of the Century. While your character in SotC never really gets "more powerful" than he started, he can and will still undergo "change" as he is influenced by the events of the story.
The heroic journey is strange, as walking the path even for a few footfalls creates heroes. A power level is not needed for heroism, merely risk in an attempt to better the world, even in a small way. Risk your life to save a child from a moving car? A mundane action accomplished by an average person and in my opinion the very definition of heroism. Warhammer characters are no different
@azirk83 Completely agree and I probably wasn't explicit about this in my response even though it was on my mind. Heroism is about the decision between "action" and "inaction". This is why I have always found a great deal of "heroism" in Call of Cthulhu...a view that is difficult to get others to see. There's a saying that goes: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". The man who risks everything in the name of opposition to evil is the true hero.
That's one of the appeals to me of Warhammer. The PCs are "little fish", fragile. They're not conquerors, kings or legendary warriors. They are normal people who refuse to sit idly by and use their ineptitudes as an excuse. The charge forth, into the mouth of madness, and pray that the gods will look favorably upon them in this life and the next.
@Webhead123 About CofC: I don't know that a hero is just someone who acts. Heroes are also usually effective, at least to some extent. For example, what about a superhero who always tries to save people but always fails? (And let's assume it's not a question of ineptitude.) I think the possibility of heroes is contingent upon not only the chance/magnitude of failure but the chance/magnitude of success.
@boltorange I'm not sure that I agree. Sure, you want your hero to succeed at what he attempts to defend but whether or not he does has no bearing upon his heroic spirit. It's like the man in Tiananmen Square. Could he have stopped the tanks? No. If the driver wanted to, he would have rolled right over him and not even felt it. But, knowing this, the man chose to stand before them anyway, representative of an ideal.
As Mouse Guard would say, "It's not what you fight, it's what you fight for!"
@Webhead123 Referring to that picture from Tiananmen, a professor of mine once asked "how many heroes are in this picture?" The answer, according to him, is two: not only the guy who stood there but also the commander who ordered his tank stopped. Whether a person is ultimately thought of as a brave hero or a tragic fool is not only determined by what that person intends to do but also how the whole thing turns out.
@Webhead123 (cont'd) With reference to the MG motto, guardmice don't throw their lives away on good-intentioned theatrics. The thing for which they fight is the commonweal; what does the bravery of its defenders matter if they fail? There is, of course, a such thing as a "heroic last stand" but that's what every damn game of CofC would come down to, if you wanted to play heroes in that game. How many "heroic last stands" go by before we have to consider them merely vanity?
@boltorange And, IMO, neither do the investigators in CoC. There is nothing glorious or theatrical about what they must do if they are to defend humanity. In all likelihood, their deeds will never even been known. They stand guard because someone must, lest the enemy breach the gate and lay waste to all that is worth defending.
@Webhead123 (cont'd) In CofC, you will almost always fail and the best you can hope for is that your failure has little further repercussion. If you do (somehow) manage to succeed, it will likely not be of much consequence, either. The threat only becomes marginally (e.g., locally) less immediate.
@boltorange CoC is about what I call "little victories". Will you ever banish the Great Old Ones from our universe and usher in an era of peace for mankind? No, but you can protect today. You can save lives and hold back the darkness for one day longer and *every* day is worth fighting for. A "hero" marches boldly into the suffocating blackness, refusing to let fear and doubt dissuade him while everyone else cringes in the corner and dreams of a life blissfully ignorant of the unpleasant truth.
@Webhead123 Right, the truth isn't buried so deep but good men won't find a shovel. Are good men a dime a dozen? And, let's be honest, we're not talking about fighting for every day; rather, CofC has them dying (or going irretrievably mad) for every day. So if we spend the sanity and/or lives of all good men in that horrific world then we've bought what, a week? A month? There's a thin line between bravery and stupidity, or madness in this case, but it ain't that thin, brother.
@Webhead123 I think CofC works best when the protagonists have more mixed, "gritty" motives, a la the dark side of Indiana Jones & Co. or, on a (superficially) lighter note, Flashman. PCs who have the goal of saving their own skins, rather than saving the world, already have a tough enough battle ahead of them. If their characters glint with the light of heroic virtue now and again, all the better -- but strictly unnecessary.
@boltorange But what is the worth of a good man if not to stand for something good?
Certainly, CoC can be used to tell a variety of tales. Some depict the fruitless endeavors of men who simply come to realize that the Universe is older and darker than they dare conceive. As an RPG though, I think it has value telling stories about the "candle in the dark", the people who are almost hopelessly overwhelmed but who refuse to retreat into ignorance or despair. That sort of heroism really...
...connects with me. I get your point about bravery vs. stupidity. In the case of CoC, stupidity is more often attempting to ignore a problem hoping that it will vanish or, at least, not affect you. The stakes are the well-being and continued survival of all of humanity. To not take up what means you have to attempt to hold the gate would be to abandon hope. The other angle, one would suppose as well, is that even preparation can only do so much against the dark and ancient powers.
@Webhead123 I'd say those who hope the problem will not affect them are really hoping for the very best that is possible in CofC. After all, the thing itself cannot be overcome. There is no hope but irrational hope, which is why a hero in CofC is consigned from madness from the start. This is getting at why I prefer CthulhuTech to CofC, where making a stand will likely still get you knocked but you at least have the chance to really accomplish something.
@boltorange Yes, the "thing" cannot be overcome, but the courageous actions of the investigators can delay or hinder it. As you say though, the cost is their own well-being.
Again, I think it's about what you choose to define as "accomplishment". The victories in CoC are smaller and more fleeting but they are there.
@Webhead123 Well, part of the horror, in Lovecraft's own tales at least, is that those accomplishments are actually illusions -- just what Nyarlathotep wanted you to do, at best, and utterly insignificant at worst -- i.e., most often.
Right, we've shown that we should be playing a game of CofC together at the very least!
Yes, Lovecraft's vision of the Mythos is really just a showcase of humanities fragility, impotence and ultimate futility when compared to an ageless and endless Universe.
While I like to keep his general "tone" intact to communicate these concepts in the RPG (being *somewhat* of a Mythos purist), I think it's ultimate value as a role playing game is to use that backdrop to contrast the courage and selfless deeds of those rare few who fight back rather than admit defeat.
...For me at least, I like the investigators of CoC to be the caliber of folks who, when faced with the hideous truth about the nature of the Universe, they will force themselves to press forward because to not act would doom some (if not all) human life. Every child you rescue from the slobbering cultists, every creature that you force back into the unknowable depths from whence it came is one step closer to the preservation of a safe and sane world...even if it's only one day at a time.
@Webhead123 I guess the only "heroic" type I see coming out of CofC is the one who gets wrapped up in the mess for someone else's sake and perseveres not to save the world (it's too late, even if the world was inherently meaningful) but rather to save that person. The type you're talking about, in my opinion regarding CofC specifically, is already batty.
@boltorange Yes, as you allude to concerning Rorschach, anyone who resolves themselves to "go down fighting" in the face of such crushing oppression is not of typical stock. It takes a certain kind of person to gaze long into the abyss and resolve oneself to stand against it. "Even in the face of Armageddon, I shall not compromise in this!" As screwed up as Rorschach was, his unflinching pursuit of the defense of his beliefs, regardless of the cost to himself, was hauntingly noble.
@Webhead123 Hmm, I guess one's reaction to Rorschach's ultimate fate could be a sort of litmus test. Personally, I can enjoy the complexity of the character and still understand that he's insane. And, to me, the character shows that little germ of fascism calling to us amid the apparent nobility, the pomp, of superheroics. But that's a topic for another time!
I thoroughly hate tetsubo's meme about "generation" vs "creation". I'm a bit of a word nazi, though, and synonyms bug me when talking about things as I get flashes of separate-but-equal mentality, where you don't consider random roll "character creation".
As for Star Wars, some games don't consider their mechanical philosophy the same way I do, hence point buy Pathfinder, etc. Star wars lets you start as a Jedi, I probably wouldn't if trying to do the Heroic Journey
@azirk83 Well, in D6 you could start something along the lines of a Jedi padawan but not someone of competence enough to be considered a "trained Jedi". I'm a fan of the "classic Imperial" era of play where the PCs are typically "little fish" just trying to avoid being eaten by the bigger fish around them until they decide that it is time to "fight back" and take up a heroic cause.
@GiantKukri Yes, I've read that! Interesting idea, actually. I once proposed a D&D campaign where the players were only allowed to take the NPC classes from the DMG. Yeah...they didn't like that so much...
@Webhead123 Heh, I would have loved that idea because... what was it called, the Expert? The one that lets you pick whatever skills you wanted without there being class restrictions sounds like a great idea to me. I'm of the school that believes heroes are defined by their actions, not any in-grown destiny. Even if you go point buy you can still sort of form that into the character, but with random generation you CAN, with the right game themes, have humble beginnings be all the more rewarding.
You always have great vid responses, seems you always hit on additional & complimentary information. I certainly like the idea of my pc being low & being added to during the game. I find that much more rewarding.
rated
woodwwad 7 months ago
@woodwwad The big problem with journey games is fumbling GMs, they can kill the whole idea for groups. Warhammer for example would be a lot less fun if all you ever are is the rat catch because the game doesn't last more than 3 sessions.
woodwwad 7 months ago
@woodwwad Very true. They are definately the most difficult to keep together but also the most rewarding types of campaigns when they survive.
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 oh absolutely, that's pretty much the only type of game I look to run. It is far more fun to have a character for a year or more than for 1 month.
woodwwad 7 months ago
I like the idea of starting out a zero and working up toward being a hero. I have played other games of course though that don't do this as much.
Samwise7RPG 7 months ago
@Catachan1brainleaf I think I was a bit clouded when I made my video. I think you're right that the real issue here is the "tone" or "story structure" of the game and whether or not the game assumes your character is already a hero or whether they are still on their "journey".
The element of playing a character that interests me most isn't the "powering up" effect of advancement but seeing how the PC is forced to grow/change in response to the story.
I think each method has its value.
Webhead123 7 months ago
By "method" I mean "character creation method", whether random, semi-random or non-random. I like them all depending on what kind of game I'm playing.
Webhead123 7 months ago
Story is change, usually a change in the character of the protagonist. In a RPG, the PC is the protagonist. Whether the mechanical capabilities of the PC change or not, the PC will change - in order for there to be story. I feel like I'm missing something about this discussion?
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange You're completely right and that was what I was attempting to communicate when I mentioned Spirit of the Century. While your character in SotC never really gets "more powerful" than he started, he can and will still undergo "change" as he is influenced by the events of the story.
Webhead123 7 months ago
One other thing, as per my Heroism vid:
The heroic journey is strange, as walking the path even for a few footfalls creates heroes. A power level is not needed for heroism, merely risk in an attempt to better the world, even in a small way. Risk your life to save a child from a moving car? A mundane action accomplished by an average person and in my opinion the very definition of heroism. Warhammer characters are no different
azirk83 8 months ago
@azirk83 Completely agree and I probably wasn't explicit about this in my response even though it was on my mind. Heroism is about the decision between "action" and "inaction". This is why I have always found a great deal of "heroism" in Call of Cthulhu...a view that is difficult to get others to see. There's a saying that goes: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". The man who risks everything in the name of opposition to evil is the true hero.
Webhead123 7 months ago
That's one of the appeals to me of Warhammer. The PCs are "little fish", fragile. They're not conquerors, kings or legendary warriors. They are normal people who refuse to sit idly by and use their ineptitudes as an excuse. The charge forth, into the mouth of madness, and pray that the gods will look favorably upon them in this life and the next.
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 About CofC: I don't know that a hero is just someone who acts. Heroes are also usually effective, at least to some extent. For example, what about a superhero who always tries to save people but always fails? (And let's assume it's not a question of ineptitude.) I think the possibility of heroes is contingent upon not only the chance/magnitude of failure but the chance/magnitude of success.
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange I'm not sure that I agree. Sure, you want your hero to succeed at what he attempts to defend but whether or not he does has no bearing upon his heroic spirit. It's like the man in Tiananmen Square. Could he have stopped the tanks? No. If the driver wanted to, he would have rolled right over him and not even felt it. But, knowing this, the man chose to stand before them anyway, representative of an ideal.
As Mouse Guard would say, "It's not what you fight, it's what you fight for!"
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 Referring to that picture from Tiananmen, a professor of mine once asked "how many heroes are in this picture?" The answer, according to him, is two: not only the guy who stood there but also the commander who ordered his tank stopped. Whether a person is ultimately thought of as a brave hero or a tragic fool is not only determined by what that person intends to do but also how the whole thing turns out.
boltorange 7 months ago
@Webhead123 (cont'd) With reference to the MG motto, guardmice don't throw their lives away on good-intentioned theatrics. The thing for which they fight is the commonweal; what does the bravery of its defenders matter if they fail? There is, of course, a such thing as a "heroic last stand" but that's what every damn game of CofC would come down to, if you wanted to play heroes in that game. How many "heroic last stands" go by before we have to consider them merely vanity?
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange And, IMO, neither do the investigators in CoC. There is nothing glorious or theatrical about what they must do if they are to defend humanity. In all likelihood, their deeds will never even been known. They stand guard because someone must, lest the enemy breach the gate and lay waste to all that is worth defending.
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 (cont'd) In CofC, you will almost always fail and the best you can hope for is that your failure has little further repercussion. If you do (somehow) manage to succeed, it will likely not be of much consequence, either. The threat only becomes marginally (e.g., locally) less immediate.
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange CoC is about what I call "little victories". Will you ever banish the Great Old Ones from our universe and usher in an era of peace for mankind? No, but you can protect today. You can save lives and hold back the darkness for one day longer and *every* day is worth fighting for. A "hero" marches boldly into the suffocating blackness, refusing to let fear and doubt dissuade him while everyone else cringes in the corner and dreams of a life blissfully ignorant of the unpleasant truth.
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 Right, the truth isn't buried so deep but good men won't find a shovel. Are good men a dime a dozen? And, let's be honest, we're not talking about fighting for every day; rather, CofC has them dying (or going irretrievably mad) for every day. So if we spend the sanity and/or lives of all good men in that horrific world then we've bought what, a week? A month? There's a thin line between bravery and stupidity, or madness in this case, but it ain't that thin, brother.
boltorange 7 months ago
@Webhead123 I think CofC works best when the protagonists have more mixed, "gritty" motives, a la the dark side of Indiana Jones & Co. or, on a (superficially) lighter note, Flashman. PCs who have the goal of saving their own skins, rather than saving the world, already have a tough enough battle ahead of them. If their characters glint with the light of heroic virtue now and again, all the better -- but strictly unnecessary.
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange But what is the worth of a good man if not to stand for something good?
Certainly, CoC can be used to tell a variety of tales. Some depict the fruitless endeavors of men who simply come to realize that the Universe is older and darker than they dare conceive. As an RPG though, I think it has value telling stories about the "candle in the dark", the people who are almost hopelessly overwhelmed but who refuse to retreat into ignorance or despair. That sort of heroism really...
Webhead123 7 months ago
...connects with me. I get your point about bravery vs. stupidity. In the case of CoC, stupidity is more often attempting to ignore a problem hoping that it will vanish or, at least, not affect you. The stakes are the well-being and continued survival of all of humanity. To not take up what means you have to attempt to hold the gate would be to abandon hope. The other angle, one would suppose as well, is that even preparation can only do so much against the dark and ancient powers.
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 I'd say those who hope the problem will not affect them are really hoping for the very best that is possible in CofC. After all, the thing itself cannot be overcome. There is no hope but irrational hope, which is why a hero in CofC is consigned from madness from the start. This is getting at why I prefer CthulhuTech to CofC, where making a stand will likely still get you knocked but you at least have the chance to really accomplish something.
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange Yes, the "thing" cannot be overcome, but the courageous actions of the investigators can delay or hinder it. As you say though, the cost is their own well-being.
Again, I think it's about what you choose to define as "accomplishment". The victories in CoC are smaller and more fleeting but they are there.
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 Well, part of the horror, in Lovecraft's own tales at least, is that those accomplishments are actually illusions -- just what Nyarlathotep wanted you to do, at best, and utterly insignificant at worst -- i.e., most often.
Right, we've shown that we should be playing a game of CofC together at the very least!
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange Indeed!
Yes, Lovecraft's vision of the Mythos is really just a showcase of humanities fragility, impotence and ultimate futility when compared to an ageless and endless Universe.
While I like to keep his general "tone" intact to communicate these concepts in the RPG (being *somewhat* of a Mythos purist), I think it's ultimate value as a role playing game is to use that backdrop to contrast the courage and selfless deeds of those rare few who fight back rather than admit defeat.
Webhead123 7 months ago
...For me at least, I like the investigators of CoC to be the caliber of folks who, when faced with the hideous truth about the nature of the Universe, they will force themselves to press forward because to not act would doom some (if not all) human life. Every child you rescue from the slobbering cultists, every creature that you force back into the unknowable depths from whence it came is one step closer to the preservation of a safe and sane world...even if it's only one day at a time.
Webhead123 7 months ago
Probably the perfect quote that sums up my feelings of CoC as an RPG for me is one of Rorschach's from Watchmen:
"We don’t so this thing ’cause it’s permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we’re compelled."
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 The fact that Roarshach is talking about compulsion makes me agree that this is indeed the perfect quotation for the topic! lol
boltorange 7 months ago
@Webhead123 I guess the only "heroic" type I see coming out of CofC is the one who gets wrapped up in the mess for someone else's sake and perseveres not to save the world (it's too late, even if the world was inherently meaningful) but rather to save that person. The type you're talking about, in my opinion regarding CofC specifically, is already batty.
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange Yes, as you allude to concerning Rorschach, anyone who resolves themselves to "go down fighting" in the face of such crushing oppression is not of typical stock. It takes a certain kind of person to gaze long into the abyss and resolve oneself to stand against it. "Even in the face of Armageddon, I shall not compromise in this!" As screwed up as Rorschach was, his unflinching pursuit of the defense of his beliefs, regardless of the cost to himself, was hauntingly noble.
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123 Hmm, I guess one's reaction to Rorschach's ultimate fate could be a sort of litmus test. Personally, I can enjoy the complexity of the character and still understand that he's insane. And, to me, the character shows that little germ of fascism calling to us amid the apparent nobility, the pomp, of superheroics. But that's a topic for another time!
boltorange 7 months ago
@boltorange Humanity is indeed a complex state of being.
Webhead123 7 months ago
Thanks for the response!
I thoroughly hate tetsubo's meme about "generation" vs "creation". I'm a bit of a word nazi, though, and synonyms bug me when talking about things as I get flashes of separate-but-equal mentality, where you don't consider random roll "character creation".
As for Star Wars, some games don't consider their mechanical philosophy the same way I do, hence point buy Pathfinder, etc. Star wars lets you start as a Jedi, I probably wouldn't if trying to do the Heroic Journey
azirk83 8 months ago
@azirk83 Well, in D6 you could start something along the lines of a Jedi padawan but not someone of competence enough to be considered a "trained Jedi". I'm a fan of the "classic Imperial" era of play where the PCs are typically "little fish" just trying to avoid being eaten by the bigger fish around them until they decide that it is time to "fight back" and take up a heroic cause.
Webhead123 7 months ago
@Webhead123
There's a "dungeon crawl classics" book that is intended for you to play by starting your characters off as NPC classes. Just a thought...
GiantKukri 3 months ago
@GiantKukri Yes, I've read that! Interesting idea, actually. I once proposed a D&D campaign where the players were only allowed to take the NPC classes from the DMG. Yeah...they didn't like that so much...
Webhead123 3 months ago
@Webhead123
xD
I could see some people getting angry about that.
GiantKukri 3 months ago
@Webhead123 Heh, I would have loved that idea because... what was it called, the Expert? The one that lets you pick whatever skills you wanted without there being class restrictions sounds like a great idea to me. I'm of the school that believes heroes are defined by their actions, not any in-grown destiny. Even if you go point buy you can still sort of form that into the character, but with random generation you CAN, with the right game themes, have humble beginnings be all the more rewarding.
nutherefurlong 3 months ago