Sounds super, Bryan...So he loves me SO much, he sent his only Son (also Him) to redeem us all. But his MAIN rule is that we have to surrender ourselves to him. Thus, God can arbitrarily set up a suffering zone, otherwise, he isn't actually an omni-guy at all. So one isn't a God after all, and one is a God that sounds like a pretty crappy person. Anyone else find the compassion/cruelty paradox thoroughly mediocre?
Where is the justice of God in this (Romans 9:22)? If hell is eternal concious torment- does that mean God never satisfies his just wrath? Since Jesus could deal with the sins of the elect without giving an eternal punishment, why can't God deal with the sins of the reprobate without requiring eternal torment? It doesn't add up to me. What about God saying "I shall repay"? If God will eternally torment the reprobate, this means he never gets around to fully repaying!!
Where is the justice of God in this (Romans 9:22)? If hell is eternal concious torment- does that mean God never satisfies his just wrath? Since Jesus could deal with the sins of the elect without giving an eternal punishment, why can't God deal with the sins of the reprobate without requiring eternal torment? It doesn't add up to me. What about God saying "I shall repay"? If God will eternally torment the reprobate, this means he never gets around to fully repaying!! Where's the justice?
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife? God will still judge but He will not punish forever. Join in at whatthehellbook . com
1 Tim. 4:10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
I find this response dishonest. Chappell is a Calvinist. Calvinism teaches that those who are in hell are there because God wants them there - they are non-elect. Calvinism teaches that those who "do not want God" cannot want God until God awakens in their mind the ability to respond to God and want God.
I find this response dishonest. Chappell is a Calvinist. Calvinism teaches that those who are in hell are there because God wants them there - they are non-elect. Calvinism teaches that those who "do not want God" cannot want God until God awakens in their mind the ability to respond to God and want God.
if there is a god. it has nothing to do with what "you want"but with what god wants
It is silly to look into the bible and think understand what ur reading. It is clear (to anyone who has studied the literature of the period&Jewish mysticism. that most do NOT. surely to be alive and not even know what life is is the amazing thing? And we look for meaning of it in books?? Try your heart. (even if youre ted bundy) God resides there more than in the idol of ignorance the bible has become.
I think you might be overlooking some things. I know people have probably told you fairy tales that they themselves haven't likely experienced, but those are counterfeits. If you think about these things in purely logical terms, they start to make a little more sense.
1. If God is love and he is ultimately good and desires us to love him in return, the only answer is to give us free will. We have ultimate control of our own lives and can do any good or evil in anyone's name.
2. Christians that represent truly transformed lives don't become this way by simply thinking the "right" things. There is an experience involved. Experiences range from simply having a "feeling" all the way to actually audibly hearing God or seeing Jesus in the flesh. This is what God longs to have, a relationship with us.
3. I'm not sure if this is totally biblical or not, but C.S. Lewis explores the consequences of life and hell and heaven and such in several of his books and guesses at some things that really can't be known. But I like his take. In The Last Battle (final Narnia book) and enemy warrior somehow ends up in heaven even though he didn't ever hear the name of Aslan (Jesus). Aslan explains that any good thing that he did during his life, he surely did in Aslan's name. cont..
cont.. and any evil thing that he did was not done is Aslan's name. This kind of speaks for itself, but provides a possible answer to the question, "What if some remote tribe never hears the gospel?" Lewis also writes an entire book about hell and that bus loads of people get to visit heaven and stay there if they desire. It's called The Great Divorce. I think only one person chooses to stay, and there are some really good points made.
What's with this character limit thing? When did that happen?
Anyway, I understand that "Christians" do horrible things in God's name. However, I would strongly argue against anyone who claimed that Christians should be perfect. I would also argue against any Christian who believes that we are bound by things such as the ten commandments or the moral law in the old testament. Here is the good news. Jesus died for all sin past and future. That is freedom.
Vicarious redemption is the most disgusting idea ever presented.
Think about what that would mean.
A man goes out Rapes 10,000 Women, molests 50,000 Children, Kills 100,000 People then says Jesus Forgive me and Poof magically everything he did is wiped away!
There is No accountability!
No Personal Responcibility!
No Justice!
While the Atheist can be helpping others, serving in the military to protect freedom but not buying into the God notion or Jesus and they diserve Torture?
and of fire, if anyone reads the bible, god reveals more information about himself, the gospel, and what he wants from us , in time. hell is of fire, is of seperation from the grace of god, eternal torment...all of the above.
Given the weight of what is at stake for each of us, it may be worth the time and energy to do some research. Is the bible true? How do we know? If it's not true what does that mean for me? If it is true what does that mean for me?
When I look at my hand and consider all it does I'm inclined to think that someone created it. We're creating pretty cool things with technology these days but nothing compares to our hand or eye. If we were created by something the door is open to some important ?'s.
Oh really I thought hell was a sea of fire. Well I guess its up to interpretation like anything else in the bible. So easy to change things around. Let me ask you how do you know what hell is. Have you been there? No you haven't. Hell is another scare tactic invented by the minds behind the creation of god and religion. Human imagination gone wrong. By the way Santa Claus is real and his elves too. I see him every Christmas come through my chimney. It's true because I wrote it in this book!
wow...conform to be like me or I will send you into hell. I don't get it. If God is a true leader, why must he bully people into conformity?? I watch this video and feel sick to my stomach. I would never believe in this mans shallow god.
I'm a Christian and I believe in a literal heaven and hell, but I disagree with the traditional view of hell that describes it as an 'eternal torture chamber.' I think it sadly misrepresents the character of God and the message of Christ on the cross. The biblical image of God (misrepresented today by the church) is a good shepherd that leaves 99 sheep behind, at his own expense to go after the 1 sheep that wandered off and is then more excited about the 1 sheep that returned than all the others
There is a reason the idea of God sending people to hell bothers you, because it's not the case at all. God gave us free-will, and out of love, He wanted relationship with us, but the choice we all have to make is to die to ourselves and let God mark out our destiny, or shut God out of our lives and create our own destiny. 1 day, God will allow every human have exactly what they want, hell is just God allowing people to choose their own destiny and giving them over to their own desires.
A so-called God threatening us with eternal separation would be as stupid as a human threatening an inchworm with separation from them if the inchworm refused to worship the human.
It would be as stupid as a human looking at inchworms and demanding the inchworms live by a set of rules that we come up with for their inchworm society!
Would you praise a human that would toss inchworms into a fire if the inchworm didn't live as the human demanded? This is what you do with a So called God!
@MrGoodNKinky The God of the Bible doesn't pick sides. 'For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son...' The world. Everyone in the world. That's why there are Christians in every country of the world. No, the universe is not based on separation. Everyone can choose God, because He died for everyone. He died for you my friend. There is a God.
The idea in Christianity is that their God is Omnipresent. Which if that would be the case it would be impossible for that God to be separate from anything since it is present everywhere.
Then there is Revelation 14:10 that clearly states this Torment in fire is in the PRESENCE of Jesus not separate from him.
However what REALITY tells us is THERE IS NO GOD!
Since God is a general term not one that only means YOURS!
@MrGoodNKinky "That response was based on CHRISTIAN ideas."
I showed you how stupid your argument was. Why is that Christian?
"The idea in Christianity is that their God is Omnipresent. Which if that would be the case it would be impossible for that God to be separate from anything since it is present everywhere."
Light falling through water does not make it unseparable from water.
The burden of proving Your God is real is on You.
I assert based on the lack of evidence of ANY God that there is in fact NO GOD!
Add to all of this the original culture to come up with a Hell myth was Egyptians.
So if a Hell is to be believed why should we discard the Egyptian Gods and Goddess's and look to one that is a cobination of two Canaanite deities. El and Yahweh? Those were two Seperate gods not one as is put forward in Christianity!
@MrGoodNKinky "The burden of proving Your God is real is on You."
Why don't you look it up then? Don't be lazy and do your research.
carm*org
reasonablefaith*org
godandscience*org
apologetics*org
christianapologetic*org
leaderu*com
rationalchristianity*net
Arguments? The cosmological argument, teleological argument, ontological argument, anthropic argument, moral argument, transcendental argument, argument from reason, and so on.
If you claim the bible then i can say the same for Superman Comics are evidence Superman is real.
Which only a moron or CHRISTIAN would call EVIDENCE!
Hell is impossible given fire is a chemical reaction of physical elements maintained by Physical oxygen. None of which would mean a damn thing once someone is DEAD!
As for the last ALL of the Pantheons had the Supreme Deity.
@MrGoodNKinky "Hell is impossible given fire is a chemical reaction of physical elements maintained by Physical oxygen. None of which would mean a damn thing once someone is DEAD!"
DAMN! SUE ME!
Man, if this is really the pseudo-logic most of you atheists use in an attempt to "refute" Christianity, I AM really starting to lose faith in humanity.
You would have to Prove by providing Evidence that Your God is real.
Even though i can show Historical Fact that it was NOT original to the Israelites and it wasn't one deity but Two!
The Canaanite Pantheon lists both El & Yahweh. El was the leader and was married to Asherah. Who also appears in the bible. It is the Hebrew word for Grove.
Additionally Baal from the Canaanite pantheon appears frequently in the bible. Yet Another stollen deity from an eariler culture
@MrGoodNKinky "You would have to Prove by providing Evidence that Your God is real."
Ahem--- LINKS!
"Even though i can show Historical Fact that it was NOT original to the Israelites and it wasn't one deity but Two! The Canaanite Pantheon lists both El & Yahweh. [Followed by frenzied rambling.]"
Yeah, EXCEPT THAT THE CANAANITES WERE NOT THE ISRAELIS, RETARD.
@MrGoodNKinky "However in the so called Evidence of a God. Something which i expect you to provide in detail since you claim there is evidence. SHOW IT!"
*facepalm* You want me to make this easier for you? Here's something for you to think through: godandscience*org/apologetics/prophchr*html. HAPPY? Lazy bastard.
@MrGoodNKinky "Then prove it isn't Odin who was the supreme God in the norse religion."
Ok. Is there any archeological or documented historical evidence that he ever walked this Earth? Is his existence supported by historians? That's right: NO.
Same for all your other pseudo-examples.
"There are over 4,000 Gods that have been worshipped in human history."
Yeah. If I came up with 999999999 solutions to a single one-solution problem, does that mean that all the solutions are wrong?
@MrGoodNKinky "PROVE you are not simply picking the one YOU LIKE! SHOW EVIDENCE YOURS IS REAL!"
YOU RETARDED MORON. DO YOUR RESEARCH. ASK A HISTORIAN, LOOK AT VIDEOS OF HISTORICAL ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE. DO SOMETHING AND THINK FOR YOURSELF, FOR ONCE.
@CarlosMarti123 You talking about irony A Christian expecting EVIDENCE when NOTHING you believe is based on one Shread of RELIABLE EVIDENCE! As for my claims they are easily PROVEN! The book of the dead spell 125! LOOK IT UP! Egyptian Mythology was clearly established the Dead had their heart weighed against a feather! If their Heart was heavier then the feather they would decend into a FIREY HELL! This is PROVEN EGYPTIAN MYTHOLOGY! Predating Christian Myths! EVIDENCE!
@MrGoodNKinky "The book of the dead spell 125! LOOK IT UP! Egyptian Mythology was clearly established the Dead had their heart weighed against a feather! If their Heart was heavier then the feather they would decend into a FIREY HELL! This is PROVEN EGYPTIAN MYTHOLOGY! Predating Christian Myths! EVIDENCE!"
No just the rambling of an insane idiot (you).
People believed in the existence of fire back then, shall we doubt that too?
Show me an informational source that says the Bible is copied from, not just that it shares things, from the Egyptians (not even the most atheists would make such a stupid suggestion XD). SHOW ME, since you like "evidence" so much.
@MrGoodNKinky So William of Ockham, Nicolaus Copernicus, John Napier, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Gottfried Leibniz, Isaac Newton, Leonhard Euler, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, Louis Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Georg Cantor, Max Planck, Freeman Dyson, Francis Collins, just to name a few, are all stupid?
Nope, I think it's you who's acting childishly stupid.
If they reject the historical Evidence which can be PROVEN to have been around long before the Israelites and yet they claim the Ten Commandments and Hell concept are original to their God which was also stollen from another eariler culture (The Canaanites Pantheon) When their own bible even includes Other Canaanite Deities.
Then YES they are Stupid!
It isn't hard to research the HISTORICAL evidence of what culture wrote down stories of what first.
@MrGoodNKinky "In order to get into the Truth or Falseness of something well that requires something you Christian's are to SMART to grasp. That is EVIDENCE!"
Oh my goodness, AGAIN? You really are a RETARDED, STUPID, IDIOTIC, USELESS MORON, aren't you? I SHOWED YOU THE DAMN EVIDENCE. LEARN HOW TO READ.
Don't even bother replying with more of your stupidity, unless you actually have something USEFUL to say. Until then, see you, illiterate fool.
More apologist bullshit. I just love how twits like this can sit there and calmly describe a place which has been especially created by his "God" and in to which human beings are apparently going to be cast to suffer for eternity.
@Resenbrink is there a contradiction? You seem to assume that 'God loves you' equals God 'should give me the best', whereas he gives us 'what I want'.
@anthonythirteen - you misunderstand. Think of your own feelings of Love, can you personally envisage any reason why you would want anyone you love to suffer eternal torment?
@Resenbrink precisely, why do you think Christians ought to pray for & reach out to non-believers? Of course, a cynic might say that they do this because they want to ensure that they don't end up in eternal torment!
How can a spirit gnash its teeth when it has none? Lake of fire? who cares if your a spirit and can't feel heat? Sounds VERY man made! Also, eternal? How so if the universe is collapsing in on itself and will no longer exist in 15 billion years? Again, the hell part as well as the whole bible sounds VERY man made and NOT god inspired to me!
"...those who don't want me, they don't get me." Of those who end up in hell, how many do you think believed god or hell exists? How many said "God, I know you are the truth and I want nothing to do with you"? Where can one find god if he searches in earnest?
There are only like 8% of the world that don't believe..a God..or gods 92% of the world believe in God(s)..why do you think that is.. is the 8% smarter then the rest? Or is the 8% missing something? Who do atheist think they are when they call 92% of the world..irrational?
Do i think they rational in their beliefs...Absolutely..their just wrong. "Do you think Beliefs were derived through reason?" I believe all Beliefs are "mostly" driven from reason (can any thought be thought about without the mind?)...unless it were given directly from God..but you would still need reason to understand..it so yes. lol
Define Reason..and faith for me. Cause i think you've Listen to to much Dawkins.
Do you think All religious people stop all thought to follow there religions? Ever been in a religion...Did you Shot your head of..to stop the Brain waves to run?
Dogma is a group activity. Truth claims come from a superhuman source and trickle down to the masses through a charismatic leader. The ideas are absorbed into the minds producing uniformity of thought. Faith and submission are good, dissent and doubt are bad.
It has built in mechanisms to discourage dissention,like heaven and hell,or outright burning at the stake!
Western religions play their game a bit better these days,due to the resurgence of individuality and limitation to their power
Dawkins, and Hitchen = poor dogma "charismatic leaders" that claim truth and tells it to the masses..."the ideas are absorbed into the minds producing Uniformity of though."
When you say religion..you know what i see..the words- world view(or belief)..cause that is pretty much what religion is..so every time you make a claim about religion..it says the same for everyone who has a world view..including yours.
Hells is really a wish come true for Atheist. It is the absences of God. If people really want to be Absence from God..God will not stop you. Adstanra..you said it is "the absences of Goodness" that true..but what is your definition of Goodness? I"m sure its quite different from my definition. Like when you say you want to be independent..free from authorities..is that really Good (again i have to ask..beyond a four letter word..what does "Good" even mean)?
If God is the source of all goodness and hell is the absence of God, then hell is the absence of goodness. Goodness refers to anything that increases happiness. The biblical descriptions of hell do not depict anyone happy there and it is absurd to say that anyone would wish for it!
God is Good..but i wouldn't attach God with your description of "goodness"..Gotta add another example of "Goodness"..having nothing to do with "happy"..as a parent..do you punish your child in some form..maybe take way his/her toy till he/she behaves...is the child happy?..Were you happy when you took the toy away. Was it the Right thing to do? Is teaching your child.."good"..even though it violates your idea of goodness being "happiness"? Is prison..a good thing?..Are rules and laws..good?
As a parent, i have to teach my children things that are going to increase their happiness, even if temporarily they feel sad. i might punish them if I believe that I am teaching them a lesson that will increase happiness or minimise suffering. I take my kids to get immunisations because I want to minimise the risk of them getting ill..because I know that causes suffering.
Well lets say someone of a lower status than me who I have authority over, one of my children for example, doesn't want to be with me and breaks the rulles I have set for him or her. I may seperate myself from this child, but I won't light the child on fire, feed it to worms, and keep the child alive for as long as possible.
At least this guy correctly identifies biblical hell as a place of suffering..If God is the sourse of all good, and hell is eternal separation from God,hell is a place of horrible torture. One wonders, who would choose such a place? It is absolutely absurd to think of a rational person choosing a place like hell..which results in infinate suffering. this man has also missed the idea of hell as a place of punishment!
Think real hard. It must be a megalomaniac who would go to such lengths to create inferior beings and then create a place to torture them for eternity if they don't bow down and worship him? Why does he need to be worshipped and praised all rhe time? It must be all a sick joke, created by man because he needed the promise of a heaven to relieve his fear of the finality of death. Then comes the option of heaven, where you spend all eternity bowing at his feet. Heaven, we have a problem.
Kadene2, you are illustrating the point perfectly. Hell is nothing more than the trajectory of no-God-self-centered choices taken to it's eternal end. You don't want God more and more. You do what you want more and more until you aren't even able to imagine enjoying God. Ultimately God does not want to force you to do anything. He simply, and finally concedes, "Thy will be done." Hell is not a place as much as a journey you choose to take.
You make it sound that we will still have choices after death, " choices taken to it's eternal death".I would not consider any choice truly free if one does not understand the full implications of the choice. One needs to be conscious of the end result. I say again , who would choose a state of " absence of any good"?
I would say " God's will be done" and submit myself as his sheep/pet/plaything if the other choice was " absence of Good".Thank goodness,lol, there is no evidence for any of this.
imagine a God thats requires submissive love from some sentient creature! If one chooses not to love or submit one finds oneself on a destructive path that leads to the absence of goodness. Is this really not wanting God or more, just wanting to be the captain of one"s own life rather than assent to such a kind of love. Why should wanting to remain an individual lead to hell? This is absurd!
But who really chooses who they love? Who really chooses their beliefs?
Love is a choice..so I'm going to say everyone that chooses to love. God gives us the choice to be his sons/daughters.. or not..simple as that. People choose not to ..then they can deal with their own lives..by themselves. God doesn't need us..its we that need him.
there is no evidence that there even is a god; let alone any choice to love him/her/it/them.
Do you think billions of atheists, muslems, hindus,pagans of old, budhists,Taoists, Mormons are deliberately choosing to believe/love something false? what rational being would choose to love or believe in something false? Free-choice means absence of coercion like promise of heaven or threat of hell or culture or even ignorance.We greatly exagerate our freewill
"there's no evidence that there even is a god.."..well you certainly have the right to believe that..but i'm going to disagree. "Do you think billions of atheist, Muslims, ..." Deliberately..Very likely ...Unknowingly..possibly (do overweight people deliberately eat?...again possibly..why....probably many different reasons..do you expect me to answer all the reason people love other things then God? I'll let God deal with that.
"What rational being would choose to love or believe in something false" ... Wonder why woman who get beat by there husbands..yet they stay with there husbands...one reason is they believe something that is false? Not sure what you are trying to say in the last sentence.
exactly. a woman free from constraints would not stay with her husband...so it behooves us to search for the underlying cause. there are psychological constraints, cultural constraints , physical constraints and constraints appied by the laws of physics. the effect of culture can easily be seen when one considers the geography of the various religions.
No rational person would freely choose an eternity of "Absence of all goodness"...would they ?
What is goodness? Is it something you feel? something you think? something society has agreed on? In your worldview...what does it matter if something is good? If i wanted to be Evil..why couldn't I? What does "goodness" even mean? No rational person would freely choose an eternity of "absence of all Goodness"..don't really know what you mean by goodness..so i can't really answer that. People think allot of different things are good..that i wouldn't agree on.
"Goodness" refers to anything that increases happiness which is a mental state.Naturally we create an archetype of "goodness" and because humans are similar ,my understanding of the term is going to be similar to yours, in the same way my archetype "Dog" is similar to yours.If we want to maximise happiness and minimise suffering, we are going to have to work together.If notions of good ness were hugely dissimilar we could never cooperate, and when they are (say Nazis) wars will likely ensue.
"goodness" refers to anything that increases happiness...Great definition..Like how happy the rapist is after he had raped a young girl..or how happy Hitler was..while he slaughtered 4million Jews. I'm going to have to say happiness Does not always = "Goodness" Or all those happy terrorist..while they bomb schools and churches..Knowing that they will be in the after life..with their virgins... Sorry i strongly disagree with your definition.
You have a concept of Good-an archetype that you compare things to and rate according to a Goodness scale. Those things that increase happiness are deemed good, those thimgs that cause suffering are deemed bad. Some things are neutral...a rock say. Humans have differences of opinion as to what things are good.-Hitler thought he was doing good.I disagree and our views are incompatable.they may lead to war. Most of us are endowed to think mass murder and rape does not increase human happiness
So Hitler thought he was doing good(and Germany Marched with him)...then can we really blame him(or the Germans)?..just because he(they) went against our views? He believed he was minimizing suffering, he wanted a Perfect Germany..a Germany that had no Jews, or Handicapped. "most of us are endowed to think mass murder and rape does not increase human happiness"..what if it was for the Greater Good? Why is rap even wrong when the rest of the Animal kingdom thinks nothing of it.
Well, the powerful thing about any dogma is it's ability to deceive and make good people do bad things.We had to fight a terrible war to stop him. We believed that facism was ultimately going to cause suffering.
Rape is wrong because for the vast majority of people it causes suffering and our society could not survive if it was condoned. We are also endowed, most of us anyway, with empathy..we feel pain when others feel pain.
"Wanting to be an "individual" is a very western Idea.. When you say being an individual..are you saying..you want to do whatever you want.. Kind of like a teenager..who rebels against her parents..until He/she finds out ..that their parents was really doing what was best for their teens. I know people "especially in the west..everyone wants to be their own Boss...unfortunately that is unrealistic ..and is probably the main reason why the crime in the west is so high..(one or my theories)
"if one chooses not to love or submit one finds oneself on a destructive path that leads to the absence of ( i would take out Goodness..and put "absences of GOD" cause..that's what hell really is not just the absences of goodness..) goodness"-
Isn't this an example of A family...Parents Demand..the respect, and obedience of their children..so that they don't go down the path of destruction..and at the end..possible OD on drugs and die at an early age. Is that so bad?
I'm usually captain of my own life..when i am..its sucks. I'm awesome at making bad decisions. If i could let God Control me 100% i would be the happiest man alive. You must love your the decision that you make, if you want God to have nothing to do with you. I would give my free will and " Individuality" in a heart beat..unfortunately(or fortunately depending on your view)..God wants us to not be robots..and rather people..that choose to love..or even hate Him(God).
Man's desire to be a sheep has gotten us into alot of trouble. We are too easily lead.
Whether man chose to bite the apple, or God wanted it this way, or we naturally evolved this way, humans are going to have to figure things out for themselves.Like a good parent, I want my kids to become individuals, striving, learning , sometimes failing.I don't want them to faithfully fall prey to some dogma that claims to know the mind of God and demands submission.Can you imagine an eternity as a sheep?
"can you imagine an eternity as a sheep?"...I'm sure sheep can...while their shepherds bring them from field to field... Oh if were a sheep.. :D Be a great Parent and protect your child From what you believe is wrong. That's all that anyone can ask of you. "want my kids to become individuals, striving, learning, sometimes failing. I don't want them to faithfully fall prey to Some dogma that claim to know the mind of God..." If i were a parent I would do, and hope for the same.
but we are not sheep...And there is no evidence that any dogma actually knows any shepard. they want you to think that they do, and they demand your submission.
The great thing about the western world, is that religion and government have less power to coerce us...to make us sheep.
"Man's desire to be a sheep has gotten us into alot of trouble." I don't believe..its is that we have been like sheep..i think it because...we tend to walk off were we shouldn't... away from our owner..and ..tend to walk into ditches.
I don't know anyone that knows the Mind of God. Do you? What is reason beyond an individuals thoughts? Can reason be reasoned? (circular reasoning..i just love it) Why do you think Your reasoning is better then mine? Do we not all have Brains? Am i not logical? Just because I've believe in God? Just because you think one way..how can you judge..what 80%+ of the world thinks.. 55% of scientist believe in God..whats wrong with their reasoning?Maybe you think you have the mind of god.
no i don't know anyone who knows the mind of God..but I know a few people who think they do..lol.You can usually tell that a theory is manmade and inaccurate when there are so many different versions of it. Religious ideas are derived from authority and personal experience and these are unreliable..at least you will agree that the majority of them are. Don't submit your mind to any authority.You need it..lol
"don't submit your mind to any authority" Hey do you not trust...the ideas that were passed down from the thinkers of the past?
You can usually tell that a theory is man made an inaccurate when there are so many different versions of it. Hey is science..wrong..cause..i bet you there is no two scientist that agree on everything they know about science.
So you believe...some of the scientist..some of the test...and agree on the things that have the most "evidentury" support. Did you do the test yourself..or do you have faith in these scientist that did the tests?
It is not faith when i believe certain things derived from science...I did not do all the tests but I can see the methods and interprete the results for myself. Other scientists repeat the tests..It is rational to believe these things...not faith.
So you have studied all the theories..and tests..that you believe? You've read and understood all the book on Biology, physics, astronomy...etc Don't lie to me. lol Faith my friend..you can't escape it. "other scientists repeat the tests" ..Still just tells you me how much faith you have in them..cause you haven't. What is your definition of rational..and Faith.
hey true, I have faith(lol) that you know the difference bt science and its repetability,falsifyability, peer review and ground up theory building and religion, based upon authority,revelaTION AND PERSONAL EXPERIENCE..I have studied alot on the topics you mentioned.Consider evolution .I have not done the dna, molecular biology embriological studies myself, but I can read the papers, see the fossils.
I have faith in the science world too.. whats wrong with faith? Sure it needs to be back by Good logic, reason, and if not..there can be a risk..i don't doubt that...but there is no thinking person..that doesn't use faith... and it is ignorant to call yourself faith less..cause everyone has a belief and a worldview.
Science is not based upon faith but tangible evidence, repetability, skepticism."Show me the evidence"! Show me the evidence that there is a Good God or that the qu'ran is the inspired word of Allah..point out the good reasons for smallpox.otherwise these are baseless assertions easily created by religion. I could propose countless of baseless assertions then use the Good reasons defense.
Faith is to believe in something for which there is no evidence, to believe for reasons other than evidence
Continued "science" Kind of the main reason why Science..came out of Christendom and not in India. china, or the Middle east. If you look at what science..and what it claims to do ..Faith is in very close quarters with science.
You still haven't really answered my question on reason... Did you reason..that reason..works? Or do you have faith in reason...as i do? How can you prove..that your brain is capable of understanding anything about this world. You have to use circular reasoning to justify it, or faith.
reason works because the laws are predictable..I can experiment to see that this is true. As i said, Faith is the belief that something is true when there is inadequate evidence..there is plenty of evidence that the world is ordered. If there was complete chaos , reason could never work .
The fact there are laws..make no sense in a world without..a law giver... no sense my friend..you have a lot of faith to believe..that this universe can have laws...without..anything putting the laws in place. "if there was complete chaos, reason could never work...amen to that."
"reason works because the laws are predictable"..not really answering my question. How can you prove..that reason is of any value..when the you..who has to judge it..uses reason to do it. "faith is the belief of something is true when there is inadequate evidence." - Or the bible definition:"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1)
"faith is the belief of something is true when there is inadequate evidence" note.."Inadequate"..that does not mean...no evidence..that means its just not enough evidence for it to be Proven. Like i said before..sciences and faith are like a married couple ..they are inseparable.
Let me give you an example of the difference. Type in John Piper, why the tseunami on youtube. There you will see a theologeon argue that the tseunamis of 2004 , which killed 200,000 people was caused by a Good spacetimeless being with the intesion of "calling people to repentence". I argue that it was caused by mindless plate tectonics.
There is no evidence that a God did this, but huge evidentury support for tectonics. One hypothesis requires faith, the other doesn't.
It requires faith to an unusual degee to think that a Good God would indiscriminatly kill people ( including kids playing on the beach). Poor people mostly. there is absolutely no evidence for this hypothesis and it is derived through authority( a pastor) and revelation ( the bible). This is pure faith .
I could show you the seismic ( sp) activity of the fault line in the Pacific on that day. I could show you the tons of experiements demonstating plate tectonics and propulgation of waves.ect
Lol Good bye i guess...Enjoy Dawkins and Hitchens while they still have a voice. You can tell me about all the people dieing form plagues and Tsunamis, and from war.. that's fine..it is a great question among theologies "the issue on pain, and Death" there are answers in the bible. And that is what i trust for my answer. You can call all religions Based on Blind faith...but i assure you "my" faith is far from blind..but you are entitled to believe what you want. Been nice talking to you.
Not true. They are so completely separate. Faith is outside of all scientific proof and fact. Science leads to facts. Faith leads to truth and these 2 things are not the same. Fact is limited by what can proven in the material world. Truth is not bounded by that so therefore neither is faith. Hence the meaning of "revelation". This is why this word is so profound in biblical text especially with prophecy.
I just explained my definition. There is belief and there is knowledge in the mental sense I mean (not gnosis). If you believe in something through an intuition that is outside of material proof then that is faith. You believe through another sense not logic. Logic is limited to the physical world. Its also one of the reason why so many are drawn to Islam. If you cling to the natural world then you long for natural facts rather than inner truth. Islam claims to have proof.
You see my definition of faith is different. By your definition ..your right lol but i disagree, cause my definition is different. Faith isn't just religious
I hate this "idea" that science doesn't lead to truth..i find it stupid. Faith can lead to truth..but faith can lead people blind , and into a dark pit. "fact is limited - material world, truth is not" agreed. Doesn't mean science can't find truth.
I think we are coming to the end of our converstaion my friend. I am sorry I could not show you the difference between theology and science. The two are completely different. please comtinue to look for the good reasons..lol...and read more that dinesh...lol
"you can usually tell that a theory(or belief) is manmade and inaccurate when there are so many different versions of it." ..just because people have different ideas..doesn't mean everyone is wrong. I think you can tell if a theory(or belief) is wrong..when the belief..is unable to answer main questions of logic.
consider any god theory..it really doesn't explain anything..just change it a bit, and you have another one. and there have been thousands of proposed supernatural explanations.
Did God design smallpox virus? I'm going to say yes..lol If a Good God..designed smallpox virus..he obviously had a good reason for it..and unless "you have the mind of God" how can you judge God? And how can that be proof of no God?
This is the greatest testimony to the irrationalist of religion. You have to imagine "Good reasons" to defend a theory. It simply is irational to argue that a good God has reasons to desin smallpox virus that tortured and killed hundreds of millions of humans, preferentially the young, old and weak.
Let me ask you about the explainability of this theory when you have no good reasons but good reason to exclude this theory
"it simply is irational to argue that a good God has reasons to design smallpox virus that tortured and killed hundreds of millions of humans" Irrational in your mind...but not for others. So the question really is..Is your reasoning really more valuable then everyone else..that disagrees with you? I'm going to say no...
whi in their right mind would conclude a Good God in this world from the evidence. A world with smallpox, great white sharks,snake poison. A biological world based upon predation, where all life subsists on death.
smallpox virus is "designed" to torture and kill. It is illogical to conclude that a Good God designed this. In order to save your theory, you must argue " there must be good reasons", but you cannot explain the reasons.The reason you can't is because it doesn't make sense.
You have derived the Good God hypothesis from religion; a method hardly reliable.this particular hypothesis does not fit the evidence, does not explain smallpox virus.
Humans via science, rid the world of smallpox by recognising the mindless principles governing it's existence. If a God wanted it for some unknown Good reason, do you think we could have rid ourselves of it?
"Goodness" is anything that incr human happiness.You want me to consider Smallpox a Good thing?
Sounds super, Bryan...So he loves me SO much, he sent his only Son (also Him) to redeem us all. But his MAIN rule is that we have to surrender ourselves to him. Thus, God can arbitrarily set up a suffering zone, otherwise, he isn't actually an omni-guy at all. So one isn't a God after all, and one is a God that sounds like a pretty crappy person. Anyone else find the compassion/cruelty paradox thoroughly mediocre?
minpinned 4 months ago
Where is the justice of God in this (Romans 9:22)? If hell is eternal concious torment- does that mean God never satisfies his just wrath? Since Jesus could deal with the sins of the elect without giving an eternal punishment, why can't God deal with the sins of the reprobate without requiring eternal torment? It doesn't add up to me. What about God saying "I shall repay"? If God will eternally torment the reprobate, this means he never gets around to fully repaying!!
psalmblues 5 months ago
Where is the justice of God in this (Romans 9:22)? If hell is eternal concious torment- does that mean God never satisfies his just wrath? Since Jesus could deal with the sins of the elect without giving an eternal punishment, why can't God deal with the sins of the reprobate without requiring eternal torment? It doesn't add up to me. What about God saying "I shall repay"? If God will eternally torment the reprobate, this means he never gets around to fully repaying!! Where's the justice?
psalmblues 5 months ago
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The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife? God will still judge but He will not punish forever. Join in at whatthehellbook . com
1 Tim. 4:10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
youtube.com/watch?v=yjRcO1Sm0HU
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
"Hell" is a human contrivance invented for the purpose of imposing fear and control on children and vulnerable adults.
Those who need and therefore believe in eternity use the concept of heaven/hell to force moral behaviour on themselves.
But morality and human decency are not derived from religion. They precede it.
Peace on earth to all my readers! That's what we got, that's all we need!
StrumstickJoe 7 months ago
lolol
TyTyMcBerg 8 months ago
I find this response dishonest. Chappell is a Calvinist. Calvinism teaches that those who are in hell are there because God wants them there - they are non-elect. Calvinism teaches that those who "do not want God" cannot want God until God awakens in their mind the ability to respond to God and want God.
tmarsh0307 9 months ago
@tmarsh0307 Calvinism is the most ass backward heresy in the history of Christianity; I sense the Arminians out there have had about enough of them.
RPenta 7 months ago
I find this response dishonest. Chappell is a Calvinist. Calvinism teaches that those who are in hell are there because God wants them there - they are non-elect. Calvinism teaches that those who "do not want God" cannot want God until God awakens in their mind the ability to respond to God and want God.
tmarsh0307 9 months ago
if there is a god. it has nothing to do with what "you want"but with what god wants
It is silly to look into the bible and think understand what ur reading. It is clear (to anyone who has studied the literature of the period&Jewish mysticism. that most do NOT. surely to be alive and not even know what life is is the amazing thing? And we look for meaning of it in books?? Try your heart. (even if youre ted bundy) God resides there more than in the idol of ignorance the bible has become.
winston2015 10 months ago
This is the biggest load of BULLSHIT that could ever be put forward.
What kind of parent would say,
1. You can NEVER see me at all! All you can see is the brutal ways others treat each other in my name.
2. You can NEVER know anything about me! All you can know is what others tell you about me!
3. But you MUST Think (Believe) in me and devote your life to me.
4. Otherwise all you get is my Wrath because that is what you wanted.
THIS ONLY MAKES SENSE TO A TOTAL FUCKING IDIOT!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky
I think you might be overlooking some things. I know people have probably told you fairy tales that they themselves haven't likely experienced, but those are counterfeits. If you think about these things in purely logical terms, they start to make a little more sense.
1. If God is love and he is ultimately good and desires us to love him in return, the only answer is to give us free will. We have ultimate control of our own lives and can do any good or evil in anyone's name.
1bheckman 9 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky
2. Christians that represent truly transformed lives don't become this way by simply thinking the "right" things. There is an experience involved. Experiences range from simply having a "feeling" all the way to actually audibly hearing God or seeing Jesus in the flesh. This is what God longs to have, a relationship with us.
1bheckman 9 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky
3. I'm not sure if this is totally biblical or not, but C.S. Lewis explores the consequences of life and hell and heaven and such in several of his books and guesses at some things that really can't be known. But I like his take. In The Last Battle (final Narnia book) and enemy warrior somehow ends up in heaven even though he didn't ever hear the name of Aslan (Jesus). Aslan explains that any good thing that he did during his life, he surely did in Aslan's name. cont..
1bheckman 9 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky
cont.. and any evil thing that he did was not done is Aslan's name. This kind of speaks for itself, but provides a possible answer to the question, "What if some remote tribe never hears the gospel?" Lewis also writes an entire book about hell and that bus loads of people get to visit heaven and stay there if they desire. It's called The Great Divorce. I think only one person chooses to stay, and there are some really good points made.
1bheckman 9 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky
What's with this character limit thing? When did that happen?
Anyway, I understand that "Christians" do horrible things in God's name. However, I would strongly argue against anyone who claimed that Christians should be perfect. I would also argue against any Christian who believes that we are bound by things such as the ten commandments or the moral law in the old testament. Here is the good news. Jesus died for all sin past and future. That is freedom.
1bheckman 9 months ago
@1bheckman
Vicarious redemption is the most disgusting idea ever presented.
Think about what that would mean.
A man goes out Rapes 10,000 Women, molests 50,000 Children, Kills 100,000 People then says Jesus Forgive me and Poof magically everything he did is wiped away!
There is No accountability!
No Personal Responcibility!
No Justice!
While the Atheist can be helpping others, serving in the military to protect freedom but not buying into the God notion or Jesus and they diserve Torture?
MrGoodNKinky 9 months ago
and of fire, if anyone reads the bible, god reveals more information about himself, the gospel, and what he wants from us , in time. hell is of fire, is of seperation from the grace of god, eternal torment...all of the above.
fatboy10121 10 months ago
2 questions:
1) Did God create hell?
2) If God is omnipresent, then is God present in hell?
I ironically know the answers, but I have a feeling most people will get these questions wrong.
michael34453 11 months ago
Given the weight of what is at stake for each of us, it may be worth the time and energy to do some research. Is the bible true? How do we know? If it's not true what does that mean for me? If it is true what does that mean for me?
When I look at my hand and consider all it does I'm inclined to think that someone created it. We're creating pretty cool things with technology these days but nothing compares to our hand or eye. If we were created by something the door is open to some important ?'s.
philspreadbury 1 year ago
@philspreadbury Glad you asked.
carm*org/is-the-bible-reliable
newchristian*org*uk/ncbibleok*html
answers*org/bible/reliable*html
godandscience*org/apologetics/bibleorg*html
leaderu*com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu*html
Just a few.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
Oh really I thought hell was a sea of fire. Well I guess its up to interpretation like anything else in the bible. So easy to change things around. Let me ask you how do you know what hell is. Have you been there? No you haven't. Hell is another scare tactic invented by the minds behind the creation of god and religion. Human imagination gone wrong. By the way Santa Claus is real and his elves too. I see him every Christmas come through my chimney. It's true because I wrote it in this book!
Rlucaciu 1 year ago
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@Rlucaciu "Let me ask you how do you know what hell is. Have you been there? No you haven't."
Let me ask you how do you know what Mars is. Have you been there? No you haven't.
"Hell is another scare tactic invented by the minds behind the creation of god and religion. Human imagination gone wrong."
Or, OR, perhaps you're wrong.
"By the way Santa Claus is real and his elves too."
Nope, not at all.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
wow...conform to be like me or I will send you into hell. I don't get it. If God is a true leader, why must he bully people into conformity?? I watch this video and feel sick to my stomach. I would never believe in this mans shallow god.
onemustaskwhy 1 year ago
I'm a Christian and I believe in a literal heaven and hell, but I disagree with the traditional view of hell that describes it as an 'eternal torture chamber.' I think it sadly misrepresents the character of God and the message of Christ on the cross. The biblical image of God (misrepresented today by the church) is a good shepherd that leaves 99 sheep behind, at his own expense to go after the 1 sheep that wandered off and is then more excited about the 1 sheep that returned than all the others
Drooblemeister 1 year ago
There is a reason the idea of God sending people to hell bothers you, because it's not the case at all. God gave us free-will, and out of love, He wanted relationship with us, but the choice we all have to make is to die to ourselves and let God mark out our destiny, or shut God out of our lives and create our own destiny. 1 day, God will allow every human have exactly what they want, hell is just God allowing people to choose their own destiny and giving them over to their own desires.
Drooblemeister 1 year ago
@onemustaskwhy Yeah, that's what our justice system is based on.
But I suppose you would say there should be no law or justice...
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
A so-called God threatening us with eternal separation would be as stupid as a human threatening an inchworm with separation from them if the inchworm refused to worship the human.
It would be as stupid as a human looking at inchworms and demanding the inchworms live by a set of rules that we come up with for their inchworm society!
Would you praise a human that would toss inchworms into a fire if the inchworm didn't live as the human demanded? This is what you do with a So called God!
WTF!
MrGoodNKinky 1 year ago
Logic is so difficult for Christians.
IF this God would be as Christians claim ALL Present that means there is NO WHERE that this God is not!
Which means logically that there couldn't be SEPERATION from tis God since the fucker is EVERYWHERE!
If there is somewhere that this God is Not (HELL) then this God is no Omni Present!
MrGoodNKinky 1 year ago
@MrGoodNKinky Seperation from the *blessings* of god.
TheCarydal 1 year ago
@TheCarydal
This makes your God IMPOSSIBLE!
The universe is based on Entanglement NOT seperation.
It would be IMPOSSIBLE for something which made the universe to be seperate from that which it made.
Nice try but you just showed your God is IMPOSSIBLE!
MrGoodNKinky 1 year ago
@MrGoodNKinky Read what I said.
Seperation from the *blessings* of god. It's what he said too.
The blessings. His love/his care etc...
TheCarydal 1 year ago
@TheCarydal
You are hung up on the idea of Seperation.
The Universe is NOT based on Seperation!
This is tribal thinking.
My tribe is better then your tribe.
The God of Judism, Islam and Christianity is a Tribal deity and one that picks sides which means it is rooted in SEPERATION.
Which is NOT what the Universe is based on!
THERE IS NO GOD!
MrGoodNKinky 1 year ago
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@MrGoodNKinky The God of the Bible doesn't pick sides. 'For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son...' The world. Everyone in the world. That's why there are Christians in every country of the world. No, the universe is not based on separation. Everyone can choose God, because He died for everyone. He died for you my friend. There is a God.
1234989ful 1 year ago
@MrGoodNKinky There is no separation, therefore there is no God?
Man, and I thought Michael Moore was a lunatic.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
That response was based on CHRISTIAN ideas.
The idea in Christianity is that their God is Omnipresent. Which if that would be the case it would be impossible for that God to be separate from anything since it is present everywhere.
Then there is Revelation 14:10 that clearly states this Torment in fire is in the PRESENCE of Jesus not separate from him.
However what REALITY tells us is THERE IS NO GOD!
Since God is a general term not one that only means YOURS!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
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@MrGoodNKinky "That response was based on CHRISTIAN ideas."
I showed you how stupid your argument was. Why is that Christian?
"The idea in Christianity is that their God is Omnipresent. Which if that would be the case it would be impossible for that God to be separate from anything since it is present everywhere."
Light falling through water does not make it unseparable from water.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
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@MrGoodNKinky "Then there is Revelation 14:10 that clearly states this Torment in fire is in the PRESENCE of Jesus not separate from him."
Presence indicates that the Lamb is SEPARATE from them. When I say that someone is present where I am, does that mean I'm not separate from them?
"However what REALITY tells us is THERE IS NO GOD!"
Nope, what reality tells us is that there IS a God.
"Since God is a general term not one that only means YOURS!"
Yes, and?
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
The burden of proving Your God is real is on You.
I assert based on the lack of evidence of ANY God that there is in fact NO GOD!
Add to all of this the original culture to come up with a Hell myth was Egyptians.
So if a Hell is to be believed why should we discard the Egyptian Gods and Goddess's and look to one that is a cobination of two Canaanite deities. El and Yahweh? Those were two Seperate gods not one as is put forward in Christianity!
Why not believe in Ra?
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "The burden of proving Your God is real is on You."
Why don't you look it up then? Don't be lazy and do your research.
carm*org
reasonablefaith*org
godandscience*org
apologetics*org
christianapologetic*org
leaderu*com
rationalchristianity*net
Arguments? The cosmological argument, teleological argument, ontological argument, anthropic argument, moral argument, transcendental argument, argument from reason, and so on.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "I assert based on the lack of evidence of ANY God that there is in fact NO GOD!"
Yeah, too bad there is evidence. Sorry to burst your bubble.
"Add to all of this the original culture to come up with a Hell myth was Egyptians."
Is this even an argument?
"So if a Hell is to be believed why should we discard the Egyptian Gods and Goddess's and look to one that is a cobination of two Canaanite deities."
Because omnipotence entitles a single being.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
What EVIDENCE is there for a God?
If you claim the bible then i can say the same for Superman Comics are evidence Superman is real.
Which only a moron or CHRISTIAN would call EVIDENCE!
Hell is impossible given fire is a chemical reaction of physical elements maintained by Physical oxygen. None of which would mean a damn thing once someone is DEAD!
As for the last ALL of the Pantheons had the Supreme Deity.
In Egypt this was Osirus,
In Greek it was Zeus.
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
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@MrGoodNKinky "What EVIDENCE is there for a God?"
Plenty. That is, if you can actually READ.
"If you claim the bible then i can say the same for Superman Comics are evidence Superman is real."
Yeah, except the "Superman" Comics never fulfilled prophecy nor had any historical or archaeological evidence, you dolt.
"Which only a moron or CHRISTIAN would call EVIDENCE!"
Correction: Which only a moron or ATHEIST would not call it EVIDENCE.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "Hell is impossible given fire is a chemical reaction of physical elements maintained by Physical oxygen. None of which would mean a damn thing once someone is DEAD!"
DAMN! SUE ME!
Man, if this is really the pseudo-logic most of you atheists use in an attempt to "refute" Christianity, I AM really starting to lose faith in humanity.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
You would have to Prove by providing Evidence that Your God is real.
Even though i can show Historical Fact that it was NOT original to the Israelites and it wasn't one deity but Two!
The Canaanite Pantheon lists both El & Yahweh. El was the leader and was married to Asherah. Who also appears in the bible. It is the Hebrew word for Grove.
Additionally Baal from the Canaanite pantheon appears frequently in the bible. Yet Another stollen deity from an eariler culture
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "You would have to Prove by providing Evidence that Your God is real."
Ahem--- LINKS!
"Even though i can show Historical Fact that it was NOT original to the Israelites and it wasn't one deity but Two! The Canaanite Pantheon lists both El & Yahweh. [Followed by frenzied rambling.]"
Yeah, EXCEPT THAT THE CANAANITES WERE NOT THE ISRAELIS, RETARD.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
However in the so called Evidence of a God.
Something which i expect you to provide in detail since you claim there is evidence. SHOW IT!
Then prove it isn't Odin who was the supreme God in the norse religion.
Or Zeus who was the Greek, Or Osirus who was Egyptian, Or Enki or Enlil who were in the Sumerian.
There are over 4,000 Gods that have been worshipped in human history.
PROVE you are not simply picking the one YOU LIKE!
SHOW EVIDENCE YOURS IS REAL!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "However in the so called Evidence of a God. Something which i expect you to provide in detail since you claim there is evidence. SHOW IT!"
*facepalm* You want me to make this easier for you? Here's something for you to think through: godandscience*org/apologetics/prophchr*html. HAPPY? Lazy bastard.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "Then prove it isn't Odin who was the supreme God in the norse religion."
Ok. Is there any archeological or documented historical evidence that he ever walked this Earth? Is his existence supported by historians? That's right: NO.
Same for all your other pseudo-examples.
"There are over 4,000 Gods that have been worshipped in human history."
Yeah. If I came up with 999999999 solutions to a single one-solution problem, does that mean that all the solutions are wrong?
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "PROVE you are not simply picking the one YOU LIKE! SHOW EVIDENCE YOURS IS REAL!"
YOU RETARDED MORON. DO YOUR RESEARCH. ASK A HISTORIAN, LOOK AT VIDEOS OF HISTORICAL ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE. DO SOMETHING AND THINK FOR YOURSELF, FOR ONCE.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
If a Hell would be real (Which it is NOT)
But IF it would be then YOU would have the burden of proof to show that it isn't based on the original culture to write about it.
Since that idea was just like the ten commandments Stollen from the Egyptians!
Theft of an idea and changing it to suit YOUR TRIBE doesn't make it yours!
It is still THEFT!
Rather ironic that those who say do not steal have this bad habbit of stealing ideas from other cultures.
Oh the Irony!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky Theft? XD I swear you atheists are starting to go senile.
You know that idiotic atheists like you make retarded statements like this without any support from reliable sources or evidence?
Oh, the irony!
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
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@MrGoodNKinky "You talking about irony A Christian expecting EVIDENCE when NOTHING you believe is based on one Shread of RELIABLE EVIDENCE!"
Yes, it is. Read some history, moron.
"As for my claims they are easily PROVEN!"
Oh my!
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "The book of the dead spell 125! LOOK IT UP! Egyptian Mythology was clearly established the Dead had their heart weighed against a feather! If their Heart was heavier then the feather they would decend into a FIREY HELL! This is PROVEN EGYPTIAN MYTHOLOGY! Predating Christian Myths! EVIDENCE!"
No just the rambling of an insane idiot (you).
People believed in the existence of fire back then, shall we doubt that too?
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
Clearly YOU refuse to look at EVIDENCE!
The fact that the Egyptian culture PREDATES the Israelite one by THOUSANDS of years is also a PROVEN fact!
Historical EVIDENCE!
Your Bible is Copied Stories!
What is INSANE is thinking a God exists when there is no EVIDENCE to prove it!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky STOP TALKING IN CAPS YOU IDIOT.
Show me an informational source that says the Bible is copied from, not just that it shares things, from the Egyptians (not even the most atheists would make such a stupid suggestion XD). SHOW ME, since you like "evidence" so much.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
I do feel i need to give a disclaimer since Christians are STUPID!
I am NOT saying that i believe the Egyptian Mythology!
All I am pointing out is those Fantasy stories were Made up by the Egyptians FIRST!
Then Copied by the Israelites!
Just as the Book of the Dead Spell 125 has a laundry list of I have nots which were the basis of the You Shall Nots of the bible.
However YOU refuse to even look at the Historical account!
Because YOU do not want the Truth!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky So William of Ockham, Nicolaus Copernicus, John Napier, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Gottfried Leibniz, Isaac Newton, Leonhard Euler, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, Louis Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Georg Cantor, Max Planck, Freeman Dyson, Francis Collins, just to name a few, are all stupid?
Nope, I think it's you who's acting childishly stupid.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
If they reject the historical Evidence which can be PROVEN to have been around long before the Israelites and yet they claim the Ten Commandments and Hell concept are original to their God which was also stollen from another eariler culture (The Canaanites Pantheon) When their own bible even includes Other Canaanite Deities.
Then YES they are Stupid!
It isn't hard to research the HISTORICAL evidence of what culture wrote down stories of what first.
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky No, YOU are stupid.
Once again, you FAILED to provide a reliable source of information for this claim.
Don't respond until you have something useful to say. Else, goodbye.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
Define RELIABLE!
IF all you call RELIABLE sources is the BIBLE then you are no different then Muslims that only look at the Quran as a Reliable source for their shit!
YOU ARE A RETARD!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
Now I do want to stress Just because the Egyptiians wrote this shit down first Doesn't make their bullshit true either!
In order to get into the Truth or Falseness of something well that requires something you Christian's are to STUPID to grasp. That is EVIDENCE!
The Book of the Dead is not PROOF of the claims in the Book of the Dead. It is simply evidence of What claims that culture made!
Which the Israelites later Stole to have in their bullshit book!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky "In order to get into the Truth or Falseness of something well that requires something you Christian's are to SMART to grasp. That is EVIDENCE!"
Oh my goodness, AGAIN? You really are a RETARDED, STUPID, IDIOTIC, USELESS MORON, aren't you? I SHOWED YOU THE DAMN EVIDENCE. LEARN HOW TO READ.
Don't even bother replying with more of your stupidity, unless you actually have something USEFUL to say. Until then, see you, illiterate fool.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
The bible is NOT evidence of a DAMN thing!
All that shows is one culture and COPY stories from an eariler culture and change the names to fit their culture!
You have not Shown Real EVIDENCE that YOUR God or ANY of the claims made in your bible are TRUE!
Your ASSUMPTIONS of what the bible says is NOT evidence they are ASSUMPTIONS!
Evidence is something that can be examined from a NON BIAS perspective.
Which you have NOT provided!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@CarlosMarti123
The Bible is NOT a reliable source for multiple reasons.
The biggest being the claims in it are NOT supported by EVIDENCE outside those stupid fables!
In fact Science has Proven the big bang was caused not by Light but by Dark Energy!
That Dark matter and Dark Energy are the reason the universe is Expanding!
NOT A SPOOKY GOD!
THERE IS NO GOD!
THERE IS NO RELIABLE SOURCES OR EVIDENCE FOR ANY GOD LET ALONE YOURS!
EVIDENCE NOT ASSUMPTION!
MrGoodNKinky 10 months ago
@MrGoodNKinky Hostile Non-Biblical Pagan Witnesses: Thallus, Pliny The Younger, Suetonius, Tacitus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Phlegon, Lucian of Samosata, Celsus. Hostile Non-Biblical Jewish Witnesses: Josephus, the Jewish Talmud, The Toledot Yeshu, et al.
Look it up.
CarlosMarti123 10 months ago
What is hell? A man-made scare tactic to bully gullible people into following a retarded bronze-age dogma they otherwise could comfortably ignore.
uccomic 1 year ago
More apologist bullshit. I just love how twits like this can sit there and calmly describe a place which has been especially created by his "God" and in to which human beings are apparently going to be cast to suffer for eternity.
Don't forget....God loves you!
Resenbrink 1 year ago
@Resenbrink is there a contradiction? You seem to assume that 'God loves you' equals God 'should give me the best', whereas he gives us 'what I want'.
anthonythirteen 1 year ago
@anthonythirteen - Contradiction? Let me see now - you have people you love I assume, would you cast any of those people in to eternal torment?
Resenbrink 1 year ago
@Resenbrink It's not up to me - fortunately!
anthonythirteen 1 year ago
@anthonythirteen - you misunderstand. Think of your own feelings of Love, can you personally envisage any reason why you would want anyone you love to suffer eternal torment?
Resenbrink 1 year ago
@Resenbrink precisely, why do you think Christians ought to pray for & reach out to non-believers? Of course, a cynic might say that they do this because they want to ensure that they don't end up in eternal torment!
anthonythirteen 1 year ago
@Resenbrink What's more pertinent - is there anyone I really hate who I would NOT send into eternal torment!
anthonythirteen 1 year ago
How can a spirit gnash its teeth when it has none? Lake of fire? who cares if your a spirit and can't feel heat? Sounds VERY man made! Also, eternal? How so if the universe is collapsing in on itself and will no longer exist in 15 billion years? Again, the hell part as well as the whole bible sounds VERY man made and NOT god inspired to me!
99minerkc 1 year ago
"...those who don't want me, they don't get me." Of those who end up in hell, how many do you think believed god or hell exists? How many said "God, I know you are the truth and I want nothing to do with you"? Where can one find god if he searches in earnest?
gromby 2 years ago
Search earnestly..that all you have to do. "search and you will find, knock on the door and it will be open onto you"
TrueTaike 2 years ago
And how long must one knock before he decides there is no one home, indefinitely?
gromby 2 years ago
"And how long must one knock before he decides there is no one home, indefinitely?" Good question..how much do you want it?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
@gromby , what is your point?
99minerkc 1 year ago
There are only like 8% of the world that don't believe..a God..or gods 92% of the world believe in God(s)..why do you think that is.. is the 8% smarter then the rest? Or is the 8% missing something? Who do atheist think they are when they call 92% of the world..irrational?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
truth by popular vote? Do you think muslems, mormons, hindus rational in their beliefs? Do you think these beliefs were derived through reason?
adstanra 2 years ago
Do i think they rational in their beliefs...Absolutely..their just wrong. "Do you think Beliefs were derived through reason?" I believe all Beliefs are "mostly" driven from reason (can any thought be thought about without the mind?)...unless it were given directly from God..but you would still need reason to understand..it so yes. lol
TrueTaike 2 years ago
the belief that Allah inspired the qu'ran to be the perfect testimony of himself....a spacetimeless being..
If you think religious beliefs are based on reason?????
adstanra 2 years ago
Define Reason..and faith for me. Cause i think you've Listen to to much Dawkins.
Do you think All religious people stop all thought to follow there religions? Ever been in a religion...Did you Shot your head of..to stop the Brain waves to run?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Dogma is a group activity. Truth claims come from a superhuman source and trickle down to the masses through a charismatic leader. The ideas are absorbed into the minds producing uniformity of thought. Faith and submission are good, dissent and doubt are bad.
It has built in mechanisms to discourage dissention,like heaven and hell,or outright burning at the stake!
Western religions play their game a bit better these days,due to the resurgence of individuality and limitation to their power
adstanra 2 years ago
Dawkins, and Hitchen = poor dogma "charismatic leaders" that claim truth and tells it to the masses..."the ideas are absorbed into the minds producing Uniformity of though."
When you say religion..you know what i see..the words- world view(or belief)..cause that is pretty much what religion is..so every time you make a claim about religion..it says the same for everyone who has a world view..including yours.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Truth by popular vote?...truth by minority of the vote? which is better? lol " I'm gonna be brave and follow that 8% that think they are right" lol
TrueTaike 2 years ago
not truth by vote at all!!!!!!!
adstanra 2 years ago
Drugs make people happy... :P lol Stealing can make the thief happy. Why else does he do it..
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Hells is really a wish come true for Atheist. It is the absences of God. If people really want to be Absence from God..God will not stop you. Adstanra..you said it is "the absences of Goodness" that true..but what is your definition of Goodness? I"m sure its quite different from my definition. Like when you say you want to be independent..free from authorities..is that really Good (again i have to ask..beyond a four letter word..what does "Good" even mean)?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
If God is the source of all goodness and hell is the absence of God, then hell is the absence of goodness. Goodness refers to anything that increases happiness. The biblical descriptions of hell do not depict anyone happy there and it is absurd to say that anyone would wish for it!
adstanra 2 years ago
God is Good..but i wouldn't attach God with your description of "goodness"..Gotta add another example of "Goodness"..having nothing to do with "happy"..as a parent..do you punish your child in some form..maybe take way his/her toy till he/she behaves...is the child happy?..Were you happy when you took the toy away. Was it the Right thing to do? Is teaching your child.."good"..even though it violates your idea of goodness being "happiness"? Is prison..a good thing?..Are rules and laws..good?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
As a parent, i have to teach my children things that are going to increase their happiness, even if temporarily they feel sad. i might punish them if I believe that I am teaching them a lesson that will increase happiness or minimise suffering. I take my kids to get immunisations because I want to minimise the risk of them getting ill..because I know that causes suffering.
There is no breaking of the definition.
adstanra 2 years ago
read the book of enoch.
Hell is a underground prison for those who rebelled against god.
Angels and Demons are fucking aliens not god damn spirits
blazedbl 2 years ago
Well lets say someone of a lower status than me who I have authority over, one of my children for example, doesn't want to be with me and breaks the rulles I have set for him or her. I may seperate myself from this child, but I won't light the child on fire, feed it to worms, and keep the child alive for as long as possible.
redcommander27 2 years ago
Redcommander27,
No, the streets would do that for you. You made rules to protect them. They denied the rules. It is what it is.
diemaus73 2 years ago
At least this guy correctly identifies biblical hell as a place of suffering..If God is the sourse of all good, and hell is eternal separation from God,hell is a place of horrible torture. One wonders, who would choose such a place? It is absolutely absurd to think of a rational person choosing a place like hell..which results in infinate suffering. this man has also missed the idea of hell as a place of punishment!
Only a sick masochist would want hell.
adstanra 2 years ago
Think real hard. It must be a megalomaniac who would go to such lengths to create inferior beings and then create a place to torture them for eternity if they don't bow down and worship him? Why does he need to be worshipped and praised all rhe time? It must be all a sick joke, created by man because he needed the promise of a heaven to relieve his fear of the finality of death. Then comes the option of heaven, where you spend all eternity bowing at his feet. Heaven, we have a problem.
kadene2 2 years ago
agree...
adstanra 2 years ago
Kadene2, you are illustrating the point perfectly. Hell is nothing more than the trajectory of no-God-self-centered choices taken to it's eternal end. You don't want God more and more. You do what you want more and more until you aren't even able to imagine enjoying God. Ultimately God does not want to force you to do anything. He simply, and finally concedes, "Thy will be done." Hell is not a place as much as a journey you choose to take.
diemaus73 2 years ago
You make it sound that we will still have choices after death, " choices taken to it's eternal death".I would not consider any choice truly free if one does not understand the full implications of the choice. One needs to be conscious of the end result. I say again , who would choose a state of " absence of any good"?
I would say " God's will be done" and submit myself as his sheep/pet/plaything if the other choice was " absence of Good".Thank goodness,lol, there is no evidence for any of this.
adstanra 2 years ago
imagine a God thats requires submissive love from some sentient creature! If one chooses not to love or submit one finds oneself on a destructive path that leads to the absence of goodness. Is this really not wanting God or more, just wanting to be the captain of one"s own life rather than assent to such a kind of love. Why should wanting to remain an individual lead to hell? This is absurd!
But who really chooses who they love? Who really chooses their beliefs?
adstanra 2 years ago
Love is a choice..so I'm going to say everyone that chooses to love. God gives us the choice to be his sons/daughters.. or not..simple as that. People choose not to ..then they can deal with their own lives..by themselves. God doesn't need us..its we that need him.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
there is no evidence that there even is a god; let alone any choice to love him/her/it/them.
Do you think billions of atheists, muslems, hindus,pagans of old, budhists,Taoists, Mormons are deliberately choosing to believe/love something false? what rational being would choose to love or believe in something false? Free-choice means absence of coercion like promise of heaven or threat of hell or culture or even ignorance.We greatly exagerate our freewill
adstanra 2 years ago
"there's no evidence that there even is a god.."..well you certainly have the right to believe that..but i'm going to disagree. "Do you think billions of atheist, Muslims, ..." Deliberately..Very likely ...Unknowingly..possibly (do overweight people deliberately eat?...again possibly..why....probably many different reasons..do you expect me to answer all the reason people love other things then God? I'll let God deal with that.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
this is an unintelligable post .
adstanra 2 years ago
"What rational being would choose to love or believe in something false" ... Wonder why woman who get beat by there husbands..yet they stay with there husbands...one reason is they believe something that is false? Not sure what you are trying to say in the last sentence.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
exactly. a woman free from constraints would not stay with her husband...so it behooves us to search for the underlying cause. there are psychological constraints, cultural constraints , physical constraints and constraints appied by the laws of physics. the effect of culture can easily be seen when one considers the geography of the various religions.
No rational person would freely choose an eternity of "Absence of all goodness"...would they ?
adstanra 2 years ago
What is goodness? Is it something you feel? something you think? something society has agreed on? In your worldview...what does it matter if something is good? If i wanted to be Evil..why couldn't I? What does "goodness" even mean? No rational person would freely choose an eternity of "absence of all Goodness"..don't really know what you mean by goodness..so i can't really answer that. People think allot of different things are good..that i wouldn't agree on.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
"Goodness" refers to anything that increases happiness which is a mental state.Naturally we create an archetype of "goodness" and because humans are similar ,my understanding of the term is going to be similar to yours, in the same way my archetype "Dog" is similar to yours.If we want to maximise happiness and minimise suffering, we are going to have to work together.If notions of good ness were hugely dissimilar we could never cooperate, and when they are (say Nazis) wars will likely ensue.
adstanra 2 years ago
"goodness" refers to anything that increases happiness...Great definition..Like how happy the rapist is after he had raped a young girl..or how happy Hitler was..while he slaughtered 4million Jews. I'm going to have to say happiness Does not always = "Goodness" Or all those happy terrorist..while they bomb schools and churches..Knowing that they will be in the after life..with their virgins... Sorry i strongly disagree with your definition.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
You have a concept of Good-an archetype that you compare things to and rate according to a Goodness scale. Those things that increase happiness are deemed good, those thimgs that cause suffering are deemed bad. Some things are neutral...a rock say. Humans have differences of opinion as to what things are good.-Hitler thought he was doing good.I disagree and our views are incompatable.they may lead to war. Most of us are endowed to think mass murder and rape does not increase human happiness
adstanra 2 years ago
So Hitler thought he was doing good(and Germany Marched with him)...then can we really blame him(or the Germans)?..just because he(they) went against our views? He believed he was minimizing suffering, he wanted a Perfect Germany..a Germany that had no Jews, or Handicapped. "most of us are endowed to think mass murder and rape does not increase human happiness"..what if it was for the Greater Good? Why is rap even wrong when the rest of the Animal kingdom thinks nothing of it.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Well, the powerful thing about any dogma is it's ability to deceive and make good people do bad things.We had to fight a terrible war to stop him. We believed that facism was ultimately going to cause suffering.
Rape is wrong because for the vast majority of people it causes suffering and our society could not survive if it was condoned. We are also endowed, most of us anyway, with empathy..we feel pain when others feel pain.
adstanra 2 years ago
"Wanting to be an "individual" is a very western Idea.. When you say being an individual..are you saying..you want to do whatever you want.. Kind of like a teenager..who rebels against her parents..until He/she finds out ..that their parents was really doing what was best for their teens. I know people "especially in the west..everyone wants to be their own Boss...unfortunately that is unrealistic ..and is probably the main reason why the crime in the west is so high..(one or my theories)
TrueTaike 2 years ago
"if one chooses not to love or submit one finds oneself on a destructive path that leads to the absence of ( i would take out Goodness..and put "absences of GOD" cause..that's what hell really is not just the absences of goodness..) goodness"-
Isn't this an example of A family...Parents Demand..the respect, and obedience of their children..so that they don't go down the path of destruction..and at the end..possible OD on drugs and die at an early age. Is that so bad?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
I'm usually captain of my own life..when i am..its sucks. I'm awesome at making bad decisions. If i could let God Control me 100% i would be the happiest man alive. You must love your the decision that you make, if you want God to have nothing to do with you. I would give my free will and " Individuality" in a heart beat..unfortunately(or fortunately depending on your view)..God wants us to not be robots..and rather people..that choose to love..or even hate Him(God).
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Man's desire to be a sheep has gotten us into alot of trouble. We are too easily lead.
Whether man chose to bite the apple, or God wanted it this way, or we naturally evolved this way, humans are going to have to figure things out for themselves.Like a good parent, I want my kids to become individuals, striving, learning , sometimes failing.I don't want them to faithfully fall prey to some dogma that claims to know the mind of God and demands submission.Can you imagine an eternity as a sheep?
adstanra 2 years ago
"can you imagine an eternity as a sheep?"...I'm sure sheep can...while their shepherds bring them from field to field... Oh if were a sheep.. :D Be a great Parent and protect your child From what you believe is wrong. That's all that anyone can ask of you. "want my kids to become individuals, striving, learning, sometimes failing. I don't want them to faithfully fall prey to Some dogma that claim to know the mind of God..." If i were a parent I would do, and hope for the same.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
but we are not sheep...And there is no evidence that any dogma actually knows any shepard. they want you to think that they do, and they demand your submission.
The great thing about the western world, is that religion and government have less power to coerce us...to make us sheep.
adstanra 2 years ago
"Man's desire to be a sheep has gotten us into alot of trouble." I don't believe..its is that we have been like sheep..i think it because...we tend to walk off were we shouldn't... away from our owner..and ..tend to walk into ditches.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Man gets into trouble when he doesn't rely on reason,logic and science to make truth claims..When some authority claims it knows the mind of God.
We have no owner my friend. And what will keep you from walking into ditches is reason.
adstanra 2 years ago
I don't know anyone that knows the Mind of God. Do you? What is reason beyond an individuals thoughts? Can reason be reasoned? (circular reasoning..i just love it) Why do you think Your reasoning is better then mine? Do we not all have Brains? Am i not logical? Just because I've believe in God? Just because you think one way..how can you judge..what 80%+ of the world thinks.. 55% of scientist believe in God..whats wrong with their reasoning?Maybe you think you have the mind of god.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
no i don't know anyone who knows the mind of God..but I know a few people who think they do..lol.You can usually tell that a theory is manmade and inaccurate when there are so many different versions of it. Religious ideas are derived from authority and personal experience and these are unreliable..at least you will agree that the majority of them are. Don't submit your mind to any authority.You need it..lol
adstanra 2 years ago
"don't submit your mind to any authority" Hey do you not trust...the ideas that were passed down from the thinkers of the past?
You can usually tell that a theory is man made an inaccurate when there are so many different versions of it. Hey is science..wrong..cause..i bet you there is no two scientist that agree on everything they know about science.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
I accept some of the ideas ..mostly the ones that have been tested. Scientists agree on the things that have the most evidentury support
adstanra 2 years ago
So you believe...some of the scientist..some of the test...and agree on the things that have the most "evidentury" support. Did you do the test yourself..or do you have faith in these scientist that did the tests?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
"do you have faith in these scientist"...here is an ez example that shows..that everyone uses faith..even atheist.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
It is not faith when i believe certain things derived from science...I did not do all the tests but I can see the methods and interprete the results for myself. Other scientists repeat the tests..It is rational to believe these things...not faith.
adstanra 2 years ago
So you have studied all the theories..and tests..that you believe? You've read and understood all the book on Biology, physics, astronomy...etc Don't lie to me. lol Faith my friend..you can't escape it. "other scientists repeat the tests" ..Still just tells you me how much faith you have in them..cause you haven't. What is your definition of rational..and Faith.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
hey true, I have faith(lol) that you know the difference bt science and its repetability,falsifyability, peer review and ground up theory building and religion, based upon authority,revelaTION AND PERSONAL EXPERIENCE..I have studied alot on the topics you mentioned.Consider evolution .I have not done the dna, molecular biology embriological studies myself, but I can read the papers, see the fossils.
adstanra 2 years ago
I have faith in the science world too.. whats wrong with faith? Sure it needs to be back by Good logic, reason, and if not..there can be a risk..i don't doubt that...but there is no thinking person..that doesn't use faith... and it is ignorant to call yourself faith less..cause everyone has a belief and a worldview.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Science is not based upon faith but tangible evidence, repetability, skepticism."Show me the evidence"! Show me the evidence that there is a Good God or that the qu'ran is the inspired word of Allah..point out the good reasons for smallpox.otherwise these are baseless assertions easily created by religion. I could propose countless of baseless assertions then use the Good reasons defense.
Faith is to believe in something for which there is no evidence, to believe for reasons other than evidence
adstanra 2 years ago
Continued "science" Kind of the main reason why Science..came out of Christendom and not in India. china, or the Middle east. If you look at what science..and what it claims to do ..Faith is in very close quarters with science.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
You still haven't really answered my question on reason... Did you reason..that reason..works? Or do you have faith in reason...as i do? How can you prove..that your brain is capable of understanding anything about this world. You have to use circular reasoning to justify it, or faith.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
reason works because the laws are predictable..I can experiment to see that this is true. As i said, Faith is the belief that something is true when there is inadequate evidence..there is plenty of evidence that the world is ordered. If there was complete chaos , reason could never work .
adstanra 2 years ago
The fact there are laws..make no sense in a world without..a law giver... no sense my friend..you have a lot of faith to believe..that this universe can have laws...without..anything putting the laws in place. "if there was complete chaos, reason could never work...amen to that."
TrueTaike 2 years ago
"reason works because the laws are predictable"..not really answering my question. How can you prove..that reason is of any value..when the you..who has to judge it..uses reason to do it. "faith is the belief of something is true when there is inadequate evidence." - Or the bible definition:"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1)
TrueTaike 2 years ago
"faith is the belief of something is true when there is inadequate evidence" note.."Inadequate"..that does not mean...no evidence..that means its just not enough evidence for it to be Proven. Like i said before..sciences and faith are like a married couple ..they are inseparable.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Let me give you an example of the difference. Type in John Piper, why the tseunami on youtube. There you will see a theologeon argue that the tseunamis of 2004 , which killed 200,000 people was caused by a Good spacetimeless being with the intesion of "calling people to repentence". I argue that it was caused by mindless plate tectonics.
There is no evidence that a God did this, but huge evidentury support for tectonics. One hypothesis requires faith, the other doesn't.
adstanra 2 years ago
It requires faith to an unusual degee to think that a Good God would indiscriminatly kill people ( including kids playing on the beach). Poor people mostly. there is absolutely no evidence for this hypothesis and it is derived through authority( a pastor) and revelation ( the bible). This is pure faith .
I could show you the seismic ( sp) activity of the fault line in the Pacific on that day. I could show you the tons of experiements demonstating plate tectonics and propulgation of waves.ect
adstanra 2 years ago
Lol Good bye i guess...Enjoy Dawkins and Hitchens while they still have a voice. You can tell me about all the people dieing form plagues and Tsunamis, and from war.. that's fine..it is a great question among theologies "the issue on pain, and Death" there are answers in the bible. And that is what i trust for my answer. You can call all religions Based on Blind faith...but i assure you "my" faith is far from blind..but you are entitled to believe what you want. Been nice talking to you.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
yes all the best. It has been fun. BTW, with all due respect to Hitchens and Dawkins....I speak with my own voice...lol
take care.
adstanra 2 years ago
Not true. They are so completely separate. Faith is outside of all scientific proof and fact. Science leads to facts. Faith leads to truth and these 2 things are not the same. Fact is limited by what can proven in the material world. Truth is not bounded by that so therefore neither is faith. Hence the meaning of "revelation". This is why this word is so profound in biblical text especially with prophecy.
cymbeli 2 years ago
whats your definition for faith?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
I just explained my definition. There is belief and there is knowledge in the mental sense I mean (not gnosis). If you believe in something through an intuition that is outside of material proof then that is faith. You believe through another sense not logic. Logic is limited to the physical world. Its also one of the reason why so many are drawn to Islam. If you cling to the natural world then you long for natural facts rather than inner truth. Islam claims to have proof.
cymbeli 2 years ago
You see my definition of faith is different. By your definition ..your right lol but i disagree, cause my definition is different. Faith isn't just religious
TrueTaike 2 years ago
faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
I hate this "idea" that science doesn't lead to truth..i find it stupid. Faith can lead to truth..but faith can lead people blind , and into a dark pit. "fact is limited - material world, truth is not" agreed. Doesn't mean science can't find truth.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
I think we are coming to the end of our converstaion my friend. I am sorry I could not show you the difference between theology and science. The two are completely different. please comtinue to look for the good reasons..lol...and read more that dinesh...lol
take care.
adstanra 2 years ago
"Scientists agree on the things that have the most evidentury support"(false statement) ... cause scientist..do not agree on Evidence.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
"you can usually tell that a theory(or belief) is manmade and inaccurate when there are so many different versions of it." ..just because people have different ideas..doesn't mean everyone is wrong. I think you can tell if a theory(or belief) is wrong..when the belief..is unable to answer main questions of logic.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
consider any god theory..it really doesn't explain anything..just change it a bit, and you have another one. and there have been thousands of proposed supernatural explanations.
A good God theory is even worse at explaining.
Did God design smallpox virus ?
adstanra 2 years ago
Did God design smallpox virus? I'm going to say yes..lol If a Good God..designed smallpox virus..he obviously had a good reason for it..and unless "you have the mind of God" how can you judge God? And how can that be proof of no God?
TrueTaike 2 years ago
This is the greatest testimony to the irrationalist of religion. You have to imagine "Good reasons" to defend a theory. It simply is irational to argue that a good God has reasons to desin smallpox virus that tortured and killed hundreds of millions of humans, preferentially the young, old and weak.
Let me ask you about the explainability of this theory when you have no good reasons but good reason to exclude this theory
adstanra 2 years ago
"it simply is irational to argue that a good God has reasons to design smallpox virus that tortured and killed hundreds of millions of humans" Irrational in your mind...but not for others. So the question really is..Is your reasoning really more valuable then everyone else..that disagrees with you? I'm going to say no...
TrueTaike 2 years ago
whi in their right mind would conclude a Good God in this world from the evidence. A world with smallpox, great white sharks,snake poison. A biological world based upon predation, where all life subsists on death.
smallpox virus is "designed" to torture and kill. It is illogical to conclude that a Good God designed this. In order to save your theory, you must argue " there must be good reasons", but you cannot explain the reasons.The reason you can't is because it doesn't make sense.
adstanra 2 years ago
You have derived the Good God hypothesis from religion; a method hardly reliable.this particular hypothesis does not fit the evidence, does not explain smallpox virus.
Humans via science, rid the world of smallpox by recognising the mindless principles governing it's existence. If a God wanted it for some unknown Good reason, do you think we could have rid ourselves of it?
"Goodness" is anything that incr human happiness.You want me to consider Smallpox a Good thing?
adstanra 2 years ago