You should read pages 309, 540 to 567 in Pike's Morals and Dogma and no I had never as an English Freemason heard of Albert Pike, so I obtained a copy of the book. all I can say if you have read all of morals and dogma you must be one hell of a speed reader
On 01:44 Min you write "...some of whom brought bach the "mystery religion" INTERGATED with Judaism"! What does INTERGATE mean? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, and I couldn't find any translation! Thanks in advance ;-)
@TheProtocolsofzion You damn yourself. This isn't about "winning" an argument fool. This is about letting everyone see you expose yourself as a complete ass. Then they won't bother even sticking a toe in you cesspool (website) , much less diving in.
@TheProtocolsofzion I would warn anyone to wear a mask when entering a TB ward, or to wear gloves and a gown when handling disease agents. Likewise, exposing oneself to the noxious waste on your website is mentally and spiritually damaging.
@TheProtocolsofzion - So what about the group of Jews that followed Christ? You want to group all Jewish people together but there are far too many sects that have differing opinions to be able to do that. When you make statements that do you sound unintelligent. When Jesus talked about the "synagogue of satan", he was talking to the pharisees and their specific synagogue.
@TheProtocolsofzion Wrong again. Nobody, but NOBODY with any credibility even mentions that fraud, much less quotes it. That is an instant credibility destroyer. You may entice some white trash Mr Goebbels but nobody else is fooled
@TheProtocolsofzion "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Debunked and dismissed decades ago as a fraud. Not a particle of truth to the whole mess. Not a single credible historian puts any stock in it at all. Akin to the proceedings of 'The Flat Earth Society" as a reference source.
@TheProtocolsofzion all your page contains is vidoes of some moron in a turbin talking a bunch of anti-semetic crap. And if you really wanna help break down the barriers of race and issues that divide men you should love Freemasons thats what we are all about. We also do are not connected to the Jews or any other religon for that matter we accept people of all faiths. In fact all Masonic lodges have a Bible open in the lodge and in my lodge we have a brother whos a Muslim so we have a Quran to
@TheProtocolsofzion evidence?? You don't have evidence of anything you have bs theories. I would think that me as a Freemason would know more than you on the subject. I am not denying the truth I am denying your bs lie that we are controlled by the Jews.
@TheProtocolsofzion you are the one lying the Jews do not control Freemasonry. And if everybody knows that the Jews control the Freemasons then why do you post it on theses videos if its already common knowledge? You're wrong the Jews and Masons are not connected
@TheProtocolsofzion - "The Protocols of Zion" have been debunked as not authentic. 2nd, we all must take OUR individual part of the blame for Christ Jesus' crucifixion. To pin it on the Jews is just wrong, since there were many MANY different Jewish perspectives at that time. AND........Jesus was jewish.
@PacificNW326 I disagree nothing occult about Freemasonry we got given a bad name from Aliester Crowly who some people say was a Mason. In a way he was he was in a clandestine Masonic Lodge not recognized by regular Freemasons, in any case he was a bad seed he was an evil occultist however freemasonry is not occultish in the slightest way
@WaCCo80 - Not only Crowly but, Albert Pike & Manly Hall and every other mason that dare describe the so-called "light" that masonry brings to this world. They all give masonry the bad name but all the other masons still pay their dues that in turn go on to support these "fringes" of masonry.
Every Christian should know that Freemasonry is an amazing brotherhood where you are surrounded by great people. It does not go against any Christian beliefs or against God. I am a Christian, I am a Freemason, I love Jesus as most Masons and all Christians do. If anyone tells you that Freemasonry is anti-Christian they simply do not know what they are talking about they are making assumptions or flat lying.
@PacificNW326 when you misuse Bible verses to make it anti Masonic such as "the stone the builders rejected has become the capstone" the Bible wasn't talking about Freemasons but you are implying it is. That is a lie you are using to try to make an anti-Masonic case and try to misuse the bible to do it. And saying that the devil is our father is a lie. Christ wasn't talking about Freemasons when he said that. Furthermore misquoting Albert Pike proves nothing.
@WaCCo80 - The pharisees & saducees of Jesus' time thought they could operate in this world with out the 1 TRUE GOD and that they could build society how THEY deemed it should be, just as the freemasons do today. Beyond that at their cores they believe only mankind can save himself.
Albert Pike was a great thinker but is not the spokesman for Freemasonry. He was always outspoken. Furthermore the anti-Masons hold him on this high pedestal like he's the biggest thing in all of Masonry. He isn't a very big deal to Masons at all. Alot of Scottish Rite Masons love his book. I read it I personally found it boring. Me and you have common ground that we are both Christians and we are from the Pacific NW....Tacoma WA here, but Freemasonry is not anti Christian
@WaCCo80 - It's not that "anti-masons", (which I'm not, I'm pro-Christ), "hold him on this high pedestal", it's the masons themselves that hold in high regard, with their many statues of the man & that many lodges encourage their members to read his writings. I'm not anti-mason or against masons, I'm against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Masonry is NOT God inspired.
@JTB1956 - Do you then see how the lodge conflicts with the bible? Hypothetically they could ask you to lie to your CHRISTian brothers in order protect a nonchristian mason. Many CHRISTian men have denounced masonry from which they had previously been apart of.
@PacificNW326 No conflict. No one may ask or expect me to do ANYTHING which conflicts with my duty to God, my family, my country, or myself. Period. A "hypothetical" situation such as you present is no more a problem for me than it would be for any other person....yourself included. I have answered your several questions. Now answer mine. Will God judge people for what they COULD do, or for what they actually do?
@JTB1956 - We're judged on our relationship to Christ Jesus. Jesus being God the Son, the only One capable of revealing God the Father to a fallen man. God is about openess, He hides Himself not from us, but us from Him, so there is no higher knowledge such as many masons claim, except for false knowldegde. Please debunk the video then.
@PacificNW326 You are nearly correct. We will every one of us be held accountable for our words, deeds, and thoughts. We Christians have as an advocate the Son of God...who paid the debt for our sin, once and for all. That salvation is the free gift to us through grace, by faith for all who believe. You still seem to think that a Christian cannot also be a Freemason. I am living proof that such an idea is wrong. Guard against judging others.
@JTB1956 - Wrong I never said you can not be, hence the uncompatible, I always leave room for the christian mason to study & learn the very depths of their "fraternitys" origins, affiliations & beliefs so that they realize what they're apart of. One can not serve two masters.
@JTB1956 - I am a CHRISTian, Christ Jesus is my Lord & Saviour. Please check out my channel if you have any doubts. I will gladly give up any time Christ Jesus has given me to explain my perspective, will you?
@PacificNW326 You make a public profession of faith in Christ as your Lord and Saviour. I think you must be sincere. I make the same profession of faith in Christ. Do you now accept me as a brother in Christ?
@JTB1956 - I assume you are too, but would you ever lie to a fellow Christian brother to protect and up hold you oaths that you made your fellow masons?
@PacificNW326 Do you accept me as a brother in Christ...saved by grace, through faith...with public profession of the same, or do you withhold that pending your judgement of me? Are you appointed to judge me?
@JTB1956 - Whoa! All I know of you is your 3 statements, of which I take at face value. But before meeting you my perspective is that masonry & CHRISTianity do NOT mix. Since you too claim to be a CHRISTian then maybe you could shed light on what you percieve to be my error, so that I may continue my mission for Christ. I am not you judge, Christ is.
@PacificNW326 I don't just claim to be a Christian.....I AM a Christian. What do YOU say it takes for a person to truthfully say such a thing? What makes one a Christian? I know what my Bible says, what say you? If you cannot accept me as a brother in Christ then how could we ever understand one another? Can you judge my heart and dismiss me ?
@JTB1956 - I'll believe you until you prove otherwise. If you are asking me to make a snap final decision based off of our brief interactions then that is something I will not do. It seems to me though that you are the one playing games by asking questions before you answer the one first asked.
@PacificNW326 Not playing games friend. I know that only God can know my heart just as he knows yours. What you need to realize is that we are both Christians....you and I. We share and both proclaim the Gospel of Christ. We are not identical....none of His creatures are....but he loves us just the same. In an earlier message you wrote that we couldn't both have the same truth. I think we do.
@JTB1956 - Please do not ignore this question this time, would you ever lie to a fellow Christian brother to protect and/or to uphold you oaths that you made your fellow masons? Who's will is your's, Christ or that of the masonic lodge?
I am a master mason and find no incompatiblity at all between masonry and Christianity. You see, since I am both Christian and a Freemason I'm blessed with some understanding of each.
@PacificNW326 I have seen your video and read through some of your exchanges with others. I have no illusions of changing your opinions. Likewise, you will not shake my faith....I am a born-again child of God, and no man will pull me from the foot of the Cross. Salvation is not yours to dispense or approve.
@JTB1956 - I'm not trying to shake your faith or have you change my mind. If you have TRUTH wouldn't you share it. That is all I am doing. Since you claim to also have TRUTH then one of us is mistaken. I will gladly give up any time Christ Jesus has given me to explain my perspective, will you?
Well, I knew a mason. About as well as one can know anyone. He was my father. Just a regular guy. He wore his masonic ring when not at work. He did not talk about the masons. The truth is,though there is much being said about masons now. I have no idea if there's any truth to any of it. I keep this fact in mind when I watch vids depicting their charictor. I also keep in mind that I am not required to answer for them.Just me. If they are evil. Let them see to that.
For our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
I love the men that are masons just as Christ as taught me to, but the spirits that inspire them are another story. For I too at one time lacked understanding and was an enemy to Christ, but thank I God for His Mercy & Grace.
@lifeseeker51 - You're right, but getting the evil out of us or acting "right" or being obedient is not what it's about either. It's first and foremost about loving God back, everything else will fall into place, including how to deal with our sins before & after they happen.
@PacificNW326 Certainly, noone has perfectly obeyed God. Only Jesus did that. Jesus was one with God and God with Jesus. That of course is what we're trying to achieve. To give up ones self entirely to God,so that one does not have any thought or deed of ones own. If such a one exists, I'd love to meet him or her.Frankly, if one were to say" I have achieved a sinless life, I do no sin",Well, That would simply not be the truth.So, we see to ourslves,not judging others.
@PacificNW326 I think this scripture is about one' personal circumstances. I.E. For instance, If I am with Jesus, it does not matter if I'm rich or poor, free or in bondage,ect. I am with Jesus and I do His will without regret or consideration for my circumstances. One's spiritual connection to God makes this possible. With this in mind, I say the affairs of the world, including freemasonry, are the will of God. None of my concern. I am concerned with what I am doing.
@lifeseeker51 - He gives us all many different ministries. The fact is I know people who are effected by freemasonry who need to taught why it's not good.
@PacificNW326 Each individual supplicant for salvation is responsible for his or her own walk. We live or die by our choices. If I am not or never have been a mason, how can I know for shure what they are actually doing?I can surf the net for info. Anyone can say whatever they want about anyone or anything on u-tube,but, is it the truth?Also one must consider the source of this information. Who is putting this stuff out and what is their motive?
@lifeseeker51 - I agree with you but if one takes an oath to protect his brother masons and has to sin to keep that oath then there is where one major point about masonry falls apart. What does light have in common with darkness, don't be yoked to unbelivers because their motives are not our motives. Many "christian" men yoke themselves with un-christian brother masons.
@PacificNW326 I think there are two kinds of Christianity. One is intellectual and one is spiritual. A spiritual Christian seeks God through the Holy Spirit and is taught through theHoly Spirit.That one is warned by the Holy Spirit when he or she is in danger of committing sin. The intellectual Christian can and often does involve his or herself in activities unsuited to a Christian. This might very well include joining in with the masons.
If a Mason breaks his oaths, he should feel guilt -- personal, moral discomfort. That's all our oaths mean.
"CHRISTianity does not allow either your scenerios and we don't even have to take an oath on it."
I know.
"there you go straight to the old testament ready to take what is written and put your own context on to it as if todays Christians are to follow it to the letter......."
I didn't say that today's Christians do. They don't, ...
@richcapo - Your exactly right, we don't follow the exact things the Jewish people had to under the Old Covenant. (Example: here's just 1 thing, we don't practice sacrife for our sins, Jesus is our sacrifice), We are under the NEW COVENANT. Also, cultural things are allowed to change, as certain things pertain only to certain people of a certian time.
@richcapo - Do you also see the point of masonry? It has you living up to your fellow brothers expectations as though they have the highest & that you should feel guilt about not meeting their expectations. That previous statement replaces a position where God should be in your life. You should live up to His expectations as they are THE HIGHEST, you should feel guilt for not meeting them. Then your dealings with ALL your fellow brothers will fall into place. Love, PacificNW326
@PacificNW326 "Do you also see the point of masonry?"
Of course: To take good men and make them better.
"It has you living up to your fellow brothers expectations as though they have the highest & that you should feel guilt about not meeting their expectations."
No guilt associated with anything. And we only expect our members to treat people respect, is all, which is hardly a austere expectation.
"You should live up to His expectations as they are THE HIGHEST"
@PacificNW326 No, I didn't contradict myself at all: There's no guilt associated with falling to meet Masonry's "standards." There should be guilt associated with breaking our oaths. Two different things.
All we ask is that people try their best to be the best men they can, which is hardly an austere standard, like I said. No man will ever become perfect. We know that and accept that, so there's no guilt in failing to become perfect. But breaking our oaths? Yes, we believe that Mason should feel guilt over that. Am I clear?
"For the most part, men do not in their hearts believe that God is either just or merciful. They fear and shrink from His lightnings and dread His wrath. For the most part, they only _think_ they believe that there is another life, a judgment, and a punishment for sin.
My PIKE, PART TWO disappeared for some reason. Here it is again:
"The God of nineteen-twentieths of the Christian world is only Bel, Moloch, Zeus, or at best Osiris, Mithras, or Adonaï, under another name, worshipped with the old Pagan ceremonies and ritualistic formulas. It is the Statue of Olympian Jove, worshipped as the Father, in the Christian Church that was a Pagan Temple; it is the Statue of Venus, become the Virgin Mary.
"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the
Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the
Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations ...
"... in all the human cesspools and sewers everywhere. Here, a sewing-woman famishes and freezes; there, mothers murder their children, that those spared may live upon the bread purchased with the burial allowances of the dead starveling; and at the next door young girls prostitute themselves for food."
"If a Republic occasionally rises like a Star, it hastens with all speed to set in blood. The kings need not make war upon it, to crush it out of their way. It is only necessary to let it alone, and it soon lays violent hands upon itself. And when a people long enslaved shake off its fetters, it may well be incredulously asked,
"The philosophical and scientific world becomes daily more and more unbelieving. Faith and Reason are not opposites, in equilibrium; but antagonistic and hostile to each other; the result being the darkness and despair of scepticism, avowed, or half-veiled as rationalism.
"Over more than three-fourths of the habitable globe, humanity still
kneels, like the camels, to take upon itself the burthens to be tamely
"To curse Humanity, the Despot need only _be_, what the popular mind has, in every age, imagined God.
"In the great cities, the lower strata of the populace are equally
without faith and without hope. The others have, for the most part, a
mere blind faith, imposed by education and circumstances, and not as
productive of moral excellence or even common honesty as Mohammedanism. "Your property will be safe here," said the Moslem; "There are no Christians here."
"Yet they will none the less persecute as Infidels and Atheists those who do not believe what they themselves imagine they believe, and which yet they do _not_believe, because it is incomprehensible to them in their ignorance and want of intellect. To the vast majority of mankind, God is but the reflected image, in infinite space, of the earthly Tyrant on his Throne, only more powerful, more inscrutable, and more implacable.
Your Pike "God of nineteen-twentieths" quote is incomplete. The full quote criticizes that 19-20ths as phony Christians -- people who profess faith in Jesus but don't truly believe in him. The quote is long. Following is the first part. Quoting it in its entirety may take a bit of time because I'm busy with other affairs at the moment.
You, however, did attempt to speak for ALL of Masonry or at least the bulk of Masonry when you wrote that: "Masonry is a way to draw spiritually minded men into bonding themselves with other men at the expense of following Christ Jesus."
Saying that would be akin to me saying that Christianity is a way to draw little boys into priests' raping beds. Just as ridiculous.
@richcapo - Again, I am not speaking for any part of freemmasonry, not one bit. I am speaking from a Christian Biblical perspevtive, as one CHRISTian to another CHRISTian. You are just caught in the middle and with every statement you make you just further prove my points to CHRISTian viewers.
"Ah but I did not attempt to speak for ALL self proclaimed "christians' like you did for masons with your statement of "to be one ask one",
You are reading way too far into what I wrote. I was speaking about Masons in general, not about every single one of them. That I have admitted that there are bad apples in Masonry should tell you this. Naturally, I can't account for every Mason. I can, however, account for our doctrine, rituals, history, and my personal experiences with the Craft.
@PacificNW326 And regarding the "grand architect" of the higher degrees: He's the same as the Grand Architect of the lower degrees -- God Almighty. Again, read Morals and Dogma. And since you focus your criticism on the higher degrees, I advise you read the transcripts of the rituals of the Scottish and York Rites, and the Shrine, too. They're available in bookstores as well as all over the Internet, especially on anti-Masonic web sites.
Albert Pike "talk[s] about lying to the lower degrees." Nowhere does he say the higher degrees are atheists, Satanists, or any other polemical thing. Keep in mind, by the way, that the Scottish Rite disused Pike's book decades ago and in its preface to his Morals and Dogma, criticizes him for projecting too much of his own beliefs onto Masonic doctrine. It also advises Masons to ignore whatever he dislikes of Pike's theories.
@richcapo - Your statement SOUND good & true except for the fact that just about all the cerimonies and rites that you initiates do as you pass from one degree into the next is based on Pike's on thoughts,interpretations, & writings. Furthermore, if what you say is the truth then they would have taken down every single "shrine"/statue of Pike. And there would be a lack of freemasons that hold tight to Pike's teachings, but instead we see multiple interviews of masons that are just the opposite.
@PacificNW326 Pike wrote the Scottish Rite degrees, but not those of the Blue Lodge, the York Rite, the Shrine, or any other body. His rituals are almost exclusively Christian in nature, by the way, and he rejects "all the pomps and works of Lucifer" in his magnum opus, Morals and Dogma. All that stuff about worshipping Lucifer and planning three world wars come from two proven hoaxes -- Taxil and the Mazzini Letter Hoax. There's nothing to them. Read Morals and Dogma and Pike's background.
@richcapo - "christian" masons bind themselves through oaths to other masons that are not "christian". By doing this you against Christ Jesus' own teachings. So by demonstrating that you exhibit that fact that masonic teachings are more important than Christ's teachings. This clearly shows, those with eyes to see, what/who you and your kind really serve. If Jesus was more important to you you would honor His teachings above those of mason's. 2nd Cor 6:14, please look it up & define for me.
@PacificNW326 > "christian" masons bind themselves through oaths to other masons that are not "christian".
I agree. I've said Christian and Masonic doctrine are incompatible several times.
> By doing this you against Christ Jesus' own teachings. So by demonstrating that you exhibit that fact that masonic teachings are more important than Christ's teachings.
Correct.
> This clearly shows, those with eyes to see, what/who you and your kind really serve.
@PacificNW326 The Scottish Rite owes a very big debt to Pike. He essentially save the SR from extinction and laid the groundwork for the egalitarian, multi-racial Masonry we have today, which is ironic given how racist he is. Like the slave owning American fathers, he was a hypocrite. He didn't practice the openness he preached. Personally, I say racism is evil; so I say he was evil. His M&D philosophies and rituals and his efforts to keep the SR together, though, are admirable nonetheless.
Masonry's "atheistic intents"? Masonry prohibits atheists from joining its ranks and forbids its members to knowingly sit with an atheist in Lodge. One has to believe in God to be eligible for membership in the Craft.
@richcapo - Yes masonry's "atheistic intents", the goal of masonry is to perfect man so that he can usurp god. Masons believe that they too can become a god. So yeah they're atheist at heart because they do not beliece in God the Almighty, ALL POWERFUL.
@PacificNW326 You are obviously very passionate about your beliefs, and I commend that. Nevertheless, I have to point out that you are wrong: Masonic doctrine has nothing to do with elevating man above God. (Neither does atheist theory, obviously, since it doesn't believe in God to begin with -- you can't usurp what doesn't exist).
@richcapo - I do not deny the fact that many lodges do not accept proclaimed atheists. But at it's core and in it's higher degrees, we all know who masons think their "grand architect" is. And they too believe that they themselves can become like this "architect". They believe that there is no Almighty God and with that belief they are atheists, for denying the One & Only Creator. And you can say what ever you want but in their own writings they talk about lying to the lower degrees.
The "Lucifer" quote is a hoax quote: It comes from a non-existent letter between Pike and Giuseppe Mazzini. Pike despised Lucifer, which he makes clear in Morals and Dogma when he writes that a good man "aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer." Page 321.
And Pike's assertion that Lucifer tortures evil men ("blinds feeble, sensual, and selfish men") is perfectly keeping with Christian doctrine -- it is Christian doctrine, actually. That's what Lucifer does.
"To curse Humanity, the Despot need only be, what the popular mind has, in every age, imagined God.
In the great cities, the lower strata of the populace are equally without faith and without hope. The others have, for the most part, a mere blind faith, imposed by education and circumstances, and not as productive of moral excellence or even common honesty as Mohammedanism.
"It is the Statue of Olympian Jove, worshiped as the Father, in the Christian Church that was a Pagan Temple; it is the Statue of Venus, become the Virgin Mary. For the most part, men do not in their hearts believe that God is either just or merciful. They fear and shrink from His lightnings and dread his wrath. For the most part, they only think they believe that there is another life, a judgment, and a punishment for sin.
"Profoundly ignorant, even in "civilized" lands, they think and reason like the animals by the side of which they toil. For them, God, Soul, Spirit, immortality, are mere words, without any real meaning. The God of nineteen-twentieths of the Christian world is only Bel, Moloch, Zeus, or at best Osiris, Mithras, or Adonaï, under another name, worshiped with the old Pagan ceremonies and ritualistic formulas.
"Of the whole of mankind, not one in ten thousand has any aspirations beyond the daily needs of the gross animal life. In this age and in all others, all men except a few, in most countries, are born to be mere beasts of burden, co-laborers with the horse and the ox.
The Pike quote is wildly out of context and incomplete. Had it been quoted in whole and in its actual context, it would show the viewer that Pike was criticizing that nineteen-twentieths of the Christian world as ignorant, beastly phonies.
I have been a Mason for thirteen years, and I have never once heard, read, or watched any brother actually put any stock in the idea that Masonry dates back to the times before Christ. It's all just so much myth that we use to illustrate the moral and civil beliefs we uphold as sacred. Nothing more than that.
@richcapo - Masonry is a way to draw spiritually minded men into bonding themselves with other men at the expense of following Christ Jesus. You would have to sin against Christ Jesus if you ever had to lie to protect a fellow masonis brother. Futher more what make a "christian" mason brother more important than a Christian Brother? Does Christ instruct us to not take oaths or vows? All paths DO NOT LEAD UP THE MOUNTAIN.
@PacificNW326 "Masonry is a way to draw spiritually minded men into bonding themselves with other men at the expense of following Christ Jesus." We don't draw anyone away, because we don't recruit. People have to approach Masons to become Masons. "You would have to sin against Christ Jesus if you ever had to lie to protect a fellow masonis brother." I'm not Christian, so sinning against Christ means nothing to me.
@richcapo - I often hear from masons that you don't recruit or "to be one ask one" but sadly that is not the whole truth. There are many former masons that have come to Christ that TESTIFY to the opposite. And to you last part..............then most of my point of view will be obtuse to you since this video is predominantly for CHRISTians curious about the biblical perspective of the mixing of CHRISTianity & freemasonry and their ilk.
@PacificNW326 I don't agree, no. No institution is perfect. There are rapists sitting in the pews, too, for instance, but that doesn't indict Christianity as a whole. Same thing with Masonry.
It's important to be honest and fair here, or we're not going to be able to have any meaningful dialogue.
@richcapo - Ah but I did not attempt to speak for ALL self proclaimed "christians' like you did for masons with your statement of "to be one ask one", when it's been demonstrated that, that is not the case.
".then most of my point of view will be obtuse to you since this video is predominantly for CHRISTians curious about the biblical perspective of the mixing of CHRISTianity & freemasonry and their ilk."
To the contrary given that I attended a Christian high school and university and was a devout Christian for the first twenty or so years of my life, and given how much knowledge of, and experience in, Masonry I have. It's important that your Christian viewers hear from both "ilks."
@richcapo - I agree having both side's opinions present are greatly beneficial to the video viewers. But as Christ Jesus taught (and you should know then) that if you ever left Christ that is because you never really were with Him in the 1st place. There is a HUGE difference in knowing ABOUT Christ Jesus and...........KNOWING CHRIST JESUS. May I suggest that you only knew ABOUT Him and you lacked that personal relationship w/ Him.
@PacificNW326 "But as Christ Jesus taught (and you should know then) that if you ever left Christ that is because you never really were with Him in the 1st place."
That's fine, but it doesn't change what I know about both Masonry and Christianity. On a side note, even if I didn't know anything about Christianity, I could still contribute meaningfully to this conversation because of all I know about Masonry -- same as a Christian who knows nothing about Masonry could.
@richcapo - Truthfully I welcome any chance I get to have a meaningful talk about my Lord & Savior. I am not assuming, I am going off of your own statements, and since I know of many men that are not masons that contribute positively to society then I suggested that it's lack of exposure because those men are out there just about everywhere.
@PacificNW326 "You brought up your "christian" past not me."
Yes, to establish that I have knowledge about Christianity, not to establish that I ever "knew Christ." We're discussing facts here.
"If you wish to not discuss moot points then don't bring them up if you think they are."
I haven't brought up anything I consider moot, you have. I'm just trying to debate the facts about Masonry as they pertain to the facts about Christianity: Such as the incompatibility between their doctrines.
@richcapo - Sorry but you are fighting a battle you can not win. There are way too many issues with freemasonry that the Bible just desroys verse after verse. 2nd, since you're not a CHRISTian you are not capable of explaining to CHRISTians about how the two can be mixed cohesively. But, please keep on trying as you just continue to further my points.
@richcapo - I have read your replies, so as the title explains the 2 really are incompatible (though we have differing reasons as to why). Your comments just further my arguement.
@PacificNW326 Obviously, yes, we agree. And there was never any need for the hostility. I deserve an apology -- it would be the Christian thing to do, yes?
@richcapo - there was never any hostility, but my apologies if you percieved any. After further thought you say I worship the devil & you god. But, I say just the opposite, I worship God the Creator, who is also the God of Love & Forgivenss as revealed through Christ Jesus (who also taught to turn the other cheek). You, a mason, are bound by oath to KILL another mason if he divulges your "secrets". So, who really worships the devil, the one sworn to kill or the one that loves?
@PacificNW326 I never said you worship the devil, and I don't believe you do -- where are you getting that from? As for our oaths, they are entirely symbolic.
@richcapo - Of course they are "symbolic" now, You wouldn't want another William Morgan on your hands this day & age? Again, YOU ARE ALLOWED TO PRACTICE SUBTERFUGE (lying to the "profane"), christians are not. So, your statements could all be lies anyways, regardless of what you claim them to be. Do you see the fallacy in serving the dark force of subterfuge/ lies/ deceit?
@PacificNW326 We pledge to keep secret our modes of recognition; we are commanded to do nothing that violates our obligations to society. As for Morgan: We have no idea what happened to him. I believe he probably was murdered by three deranged Masons, but that would be only one Masonic murder in in nearly three hundred years. How many Xian rapists and murderers have there been? How many molesters have been protected by the Church? How many crusading Xian anti-Masons lie about their research?
@richcapo - Again ---S-U-B-T-E-R-F-U-G-E look it up!! Morgan=1 murder that the public has heard about. Jesus does not teach to kill so if a "christian" practices that, is he really a CHRISTian? A little defensive are you? I do NOT have an answer for why so-called "christians" do non-CHRISTian things except for the fact that they are not really CHRISTians. In the same way I can join the masons & do unmasonic things just to make them look bad, but again that would be ,SUBTERFUGE.
@PacificNW326 You have no proof to support the idea that there have been more Masonic murders. However, for the sake of argument, I will say that there have been: That still wouldn't indict the whole of Masonry any more than the many, many rapes by priests indicts the whole of Christianity.
@richcapo - EXCEPT for the FACT that masons take oaths to kill other masons for divulging their "secrets", regardless of it's "symbology", YOU STILL TAKE THAT OATH. Which has been demonstrated at least once in public history that it is to be followed up on. So you lasty statement is WHOLEY WRONG. CHRISTians take ZERO oaths, not 1 about molestaion(though it's wrong) or muder (though it's wrong).
@PacificNW326 We don't take oaths to murder other Masons. We take oaths against ourselves. At no point in our rituals do we say we will harm brother Masons who break their oaths. As for Christians not taking oaths: I did not say they did.
@richcapo - No not exaclty but you likened them to being the same. Which they are NOT! Because they are NOT the same.......................And I'm done with you for now, Good Day!!
@richcapo - The death of Morgan at the hands of masons (who do you expect to slit your throat & cut your bowls if you break THEIR oaths?) and rape by priests are not the same. For the record, being a catholic (and thier priests) & being CHRISTian are different. You likened masons, their oaths & murder akin to rape by priests, - "That still wouldn't indict the whole of Masonry any more than the many, many rapes by priests indicts the whole of Christianity."
@PacificNW326 Masons take an oath of non-violence against other Masons and are required to circumscribe all their passions to all men, Mason or otherwise, which makes the murder of a brother, or anyone, against Masonic doctrine. And again, the oaths are merely symbolic. We make that clear to everyone who joins. So as I said before, a Mason who murders another Mason or anyone is no more a Mason than a Christian who rapes a child is a Christian. The only difference is that Masonic doctrine ...
@PacificNW326 ... explicitly prohibits hurting a brother, while Christianity does not explicitly prohibit raping a child. Of course, the Old Testament does permit stoning children to death, as well as murdering women who are raped. Masonry permits none of that.
@richcapo - EXCEPT IF THEY BREAK THEIR OATHS, RIGHT? Of course CHRISTianity does not allow either your scenerios and we don't even have to take an oath on it. Christians follow God as revealed through Christ Jesus, thus we under the New Covenant. Unlike the Jewsish people before Christ, they were under tthe Old Covenant. But, there you go straight to the old testament ready to take what is written and put your own context on to it as if todays Christians are to follow it to the letter.......
@PacificNW326 "Jesus does not teach to kill so if a "christian" practices that, is he really a CHRISTian?"
And Masonry does not teach Masons to kill. It teaches that its oaths are symbolic of how a man should feel for betraying a solemn pledge. Masonry teaches tolerance and non-violence, so if a "Mason" practices otherwise, is he really a Mason? No.
"In the same way I can join the masons & do unmasonic things just to make them look bad."
@richcapo - All this & do you realize that the degrees that are higher than you are allowed to lie to you. So even if what you say is what you have been taught it does not mean it is the truth.
@PacificNW326 If you've read Morals and Dogma, you'll see just what Pike was keeping secret in the 29th to 32nd degrees -- none of it was nefarious, and all of it is disclosed now, and has been for long, to each initiate of the Scottish Rite over the course of one or two days of morality plays. It no longer takes years to advance up the Scottish Rite, so it's no longer possible to hide anything from SR Masons, nor to any Mason since everything is available publicly.
However, for the sake of argument I'll say that the upper degrees' secrets are very well guarded to this day: That wouldn't matter to me, since I know what those secrets are, and they bother me none, and that's because I see nothing evil in them. Incompatible with doctrinal Christianity? Yes, no doubt, but that's okay with me because they instruct us in moral philosophies that I find beautifully virtuous.
FYI, the Scottish Rite criticizes Pike for putting too much of his own beliefs in M&D.
@richcapo The Rite also recommends that we toss out whatever we do not like of Morals and Dogmas, and it does this in its preface to the book, which it no longer issues to Scottish Rite Masons, and has not done so since the 1970s.
@PacificNW326 Contrary to what Pike wished to be, the higher degrees don't lie to anyone. We make his book freely available to the public and make it exceedingly easy for our brethren to go up its ranks. We also welcome the opportunity to discuss his writings in the open; we don't run from it.
@richcapo - Also, your problem isn't that Pike wrote about glorifying "lucifer", it is that his writings reached the profane. So now you must attempt to alter it's meanings so that is is not as controversial as to put off future members. Regardless, you are allowed to lie to me as much as you want since you are an "adept" and I a "profane". You miss the vid wholely though as Pike was just extra for the audience the real meat was the verses that describe masonry to a "T" since B4 the of Jesus.
@richcapo - Semantics ------- Maybe you did not but other masons have then. There are plenty of issues of "morals & dogmas" out there that have what I have quoted.
@PacificNW326 There are no semantics involved in it any way, and I find your attempt to trivialize the affront of your accusation childish, dishonest, and insulting. You accused me of saying you worship the devil. I didn't. There's no splitting verbal hairs about it. As for the issues you have with Morals and Dogma, none of them have anything to do with the idea that Masons worship demonic beings, and that's because the book does not say or even hint that Masons worship Satan ...
@richcapo - As for Pike, all I did was quote his very own writings from 'morals & dogmas'. You are the one telling me what I quoted was wrong, If it is wrong then his writings have changed since their 1st being published. I never changed his writings. I they changed it is most likely due to his ideas being to cotroversial for the average man which is just about right, since it was originally written for masons from a mason, until it fell into the hands of the "profane", then it "changes".
@PacificNW326 You partially quoted Morals and Dogma and twisted what you partially quoted from it about Lucifer as proof that Pike and the rest of the Craft worship the Devil. Why didn't you add the preceding sentences that establish Pike's belief that good men "despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer"; and why did you post Pike's Christian belief that Lucifer punishes the wicked as proof that he's a devil worship -- it doesn't make a shred of sense that you did.
@PacificNW326 Pike's writings have never been changed. Early copies of Morals and Dogma -- those given to initiates of the Scottish Rite -- are available online, in Masonic libraries, university libraries, and public libraries. They are also available to read for free on many anti-Masonic websites. A quick Google search will show you this.
@richcapo - Ok then great. Though you have ignored many other points of disagreement now all you are doing is just bringing this discussion into circles. So unless you have something more important to discuss other that moot semantics, Good Day!!
@PacificNW326 I haven't ignored any of your points. If I've overlooked them, then I apologize. Please re-state what they are, and I will answer them as best I can, as quickly as I can.
As for "moot semantics" -- do you know what moot means and semantics are?
"Futher more what make a "christian" mason brother more important than a Christian Brother?" Whether Mason or not, a man's commitment, should he follow it, to treat men of all faiths with respect and to serve his family and community -- Masonic and non-Masonic -- with dignity, charity, and brotherhood, makes him better than those who don't make and don't follow this commitment, in my opinion. In my experience the greatest number of men who make and follow this commitment are Masons.
You should read pages 309, 540 to 567 in Pike's Morals and Dogma and no I had never as an English Freemason heard of Albert Pike, so I obtained a copy of the book. all I can say if you have read all of morals and dogma you must be one hell of a speed reader
malkaraatgw1 5 months ago
On 01:44 Min you write "...some of whom brought bach the "mystery religion" INTERGATED with Judaism"! What does INTERGATE mean? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, and I couldn't find any translation! Thanks in advance ;-)
Rotebuehl1 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion You damn yourself. This isn't about "winning" an argument fool. This is about letting everyone see you expose yourself as a complete ass. Then they won't bother even sticking a toe in you cesspool (website) , much less diving in.
JTB1956 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion I would warn anyone to wear a mask when entering a TB ward, or to wear gloves and a gown when handling disease agents. Likewise, exposing oneself to the noxious waste on your website is mentally and spiritually damaging.
JTB1956 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion - So what about the group of Jews that followed Christ? You want to group all Jewish people together but there are far too many sects that have differing opinions to be able to do that. When you make statements that do you sound unintelligent. When Jesus talked about the "synagogue of satan", he was talking to the pharisees and their specific synagogue.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion Wrong again. Nobody, but NOBODY with any credibility even mentions that fraud, much less quotes it. That is an instant credibility destroyer. You may entice some white trash Mr Goebbels but nobody else is fooled
JTB1956 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Debunked and dismissed decades ago as a fraud. Not a particle of truth to the whole mess. Not a single credible historian puts any stock in it at all. Akin to the proceedings of 'The Flat Earth Society" as a reference source.
JTB1956 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion anyone visiting his page I suggest you google the protocals of zion and then it will be very clear of how credible this nutjob is
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion all your page contains is vidoes of some moron in a turbin talking a bunch of anti-semetic crap. And if you really wanna help break down the barriers of race and issues that divide men you should love Freemasons thats what we are all about. We also do are not connected to the Jews or any other religon for that matter we accept people of all faiths. In fact all Masonic lodges have a Bible open in the lodge and in my lodge we have a brother whos a Muslim so we have a Quran to
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion evidence?? You don't have evidence of anything you have bs theories. I would think that me as a Freemason would know more than you on the subject. I am not denying the truth I am denying your bs lie that we are controlled by the Jews.
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion you are the one lying the Jews do not control Freemasonry. And if everybody knows that the Jews control the Freemasons then why do you post it on theses videos if its already common knowledge? You're wrong the Jews and Masons are not connected
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion - "The Protocols of Zion" have been debunked as not authentic. 2nd, we all must take OUR individual part of the blame for Christ Jesus' crucifixion. To pin it on the Jews is just wrong, since there were many MANY different Jewish perspectives at that time. AND........Jesus was jewish.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
@TheProtocolsofzion the Jews did hate and kill Jesus but freemasonry is not atall linked with Jews most Masons are actually Christain
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@WaCCo80 - Come on now let's just call freemasonry's occult teachings what they are, kabbalah, aka jewish mysticism.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
@PacificNW326 I disagree nothing occult about Freemasonry we got given a bad name from Aliester Crowly who some people say was a Mason. In a way he was he was in a clandestine Masonic Lodge not recognized by regular Freemasons, in any case he was a bad seed he was an evil occultist however freemasonry is not occultish in the slightest way
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@WaCCo80 - Not only Crowly but, Albert Pike & Manly Hall and every other mason that dare describe the so-called "light" that masonry brings to this world. They all give masonry the bad name but all the other masons still pay their dues that in turn go on to support these "fringes" of masonry.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
Every Christian should know that Freemasonry is an amazing brotherhood where you are surrounded by great people. It does not go against any Christian beliefs or against God. I am a Christian, I am a Freemason, I love Jesus as most Masons and all Christians do. If anyone tells you that Freemasonry is anti-Christian they simply do not know what they are talking about they are making assumptions or flat lying.
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@WaCCo80 - You make claims of me lying about masonry but still you don't even point out which of my statements are lies. Then debunk the video.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
@PacificNW326 when you misuse Bible verses to make it anti Masonic such as "the stone the builders rejected has become the capstone" the Bible wasn't talking about Freemasons but you are implying it is. That is a lie you are using to try to make an anti-Masonic case and try to misuse the bible to do it. And saying that the devil is our father is a lie. Christ wasn't talking about Freemasons when he said that. Furthermore misquoting Albert Pike proves nothing.
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@WaCCo80 - The pharisees & saducees of Jesus' time thought they could operate in this world with out the 1 TRUE GOD and that they could build society how THEY deemed it should be, just as the freemasons do today. Beyond that at their cores they believe only mankind can save himself.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
Albert Pike was a great thinker but is not the spokesman for Freemasonry. He was always outspoken. Furthermore the anti-Masons hold him on this high pedestal like he's the biggest thing in all of Masonry. He isn't a very big deal to Masons at all. Alot of Scottish Rite Masons love his book. I read it I personally found it boring. Me and you have common ground that we are both Christians and we are from the Pacific NW....Tacoma WA here, but Freemasonry is not anti Christian
WaCCo80 6 months ago
@WaCCo80 - It's not that "anti-masons", (which I'm not, I'm pro-Christ), "hold him on this high pedestal", it's the masons themselves that hold in high regard, with their many statues of the man & that many lodges encourage their members to read his writings. I'm not anti-mason or against masons, I'm against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Masonry is NOT God inspired.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
In answer to your first question...No; question #2 God grants me free-will. I serve Him.
JTB1956 6 months ago
@JTB1956 - Do you then see how the lodge conflicts with the bible? Hypothetically they could ask you to lie to your CHRISTian brothers in order protect a nonchristian mason. Many CHRISTian men have denounced masonry from which they had previously been apart of.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
@PacificNW326 No conflict. No one may ask or expect me to do ANYTHING which conflicts with my duty to God, my family, my country, or myself. Period. A "hypothetical" situation such as you present is no more a problem for me than it would be for any other person....yourself included. I have answered your several questions. Now answer mine. Will God judge people for what they COULD do, or for what they actually do?
JTB1956 6 months ago
@JTB1956 - We're judged on our relationship to Christ Jesus. Jesus being God the Son, the only One capable of revealing God the Father to a fallen man. God is about openess, He hides Himself not from us, but us from Him, so there is no higher knowledge such as many masons claim, except for false knowldegde. Please debunk the video then.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
@PacificNW326 You are nearly correct. We will every one of us be held accountable for our words, deeds, and thoughts. We Christians have as an advocate the Son of God...who paid the debt for our sin, once and for all. That salvation is the free gift to us through grace, by faith for all who believe. You still seem to think that a Christian cannot also be a Freemason. I am living proof that such an idea is wrong. Guard against judging others.
JTB1956 6 months ago
@JTB1956 - Wrong I never said you can not be, hence the uncompatible, I always leave room for the christian mason to study & learn the very depths of their "fraternitys" origins, affiliations & beliefs so that they realize what they're apart of. One can not serve two masters.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
Google "brothers in the shadows" documentary
MrTobytwirl 6 months ago
Comment removed
JTB1956 7 months ago
I have one Gospel....that of Christ, and him crucified. Are you a Christian..or do you have another gospel?
JTB1956 7 months ago
@JTB1956 - I am a CHRISTian, Christ Jesus is my Lord & Saviour. Please check out my channel if you have any doubts. I will gladly give up any time Christ Jesus has given me to explain my perspective, will you?
PacificNW326 7 months ago
@PacificNW326 You make a public profession of faith in Christ as your Lord and Saviour. I think you must be sincere. I make the same profession of faith in Christ. Do you now accept me as a brother in Christ?
JTB1956 7 months ago
@JTB1956 - I assume you are too, but would you ever lie to a fellow Christian brother to protect and up hold you oaths that you made your fellow masons?
PacificNW326 7 months ago
@PacificNW326 Do you accept me as a brother in Christ...saved by grace, through faith...with public profession of the same, or do you withhold that pending your judgement of me? Are you appointed to judge me?
JTB1956 6 months ago
@JTB1956 - Whoa! All I know of you is your 3 statements, of which I take at face value. But before meeting you my perspective is that masonry & CHRISTianity do NOT mix. Since you too claim to be a CHRISTian then maybe you could shed light on what you percieve to be my error, so that I may continue my mission for Christ. I am not you judge, Christ is.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
@PacificNW326 I don't just claim to be a Christian.....I AM a Christian. What do YOU say it takes for a person to truthfully say such a thing? What makes one a Christian? I know what my Bible says, what say you? If you cannot accept me as a brother in Christ then how could we ever understand one another? Can you judge my heart and dismiss me ?
JTB1956 6 months ago
@JTB1956 - I'll believe you until you prove otherwise. If you are asking me to make a snap final decision based off of our brief interactions then that is something I will not do. It seems to me though that you are the one playing games by asking questions before you answer the one first asked.
PacificNW326 6 months ago
@PacificNW326 Not playing games friend. I know that only God can know my heart just as he knows yours. What you need to realize is that we are both Christians....you and I. We share and both proclaim the Gospel of Christ. We are not identical....none of His creatures are....but he loves us just the same. In an earlier message you wrote that we couldn't both have the same truth. I think we do.
JTB1956 6 months ago
@JTB1956 - Please do not ignore this question this time, would you ever lie to a fellow Christian brother to protect and/or to uphold you oaths that you made your fellow masons? Who's will is your's, Christ or that of the masonic lodge?
PacificNW326 6 months ago
I am a master mason and find no incompatiblity at all between masonry and Christianity. You see, since I am both Christian and a Freemason I'm blessed with some understanding of each.
JTB1956 7 months ago
@JTB1956 - Then debunk this video instead of just leaving a statement that proves nothing.
PacificNW326 7 months ago
@PacificNW326 I have seen your video and read through some of your exchanges with others. I have no illusions of changing your opinions. Likewise, you will not shake my faith....I am a born-again child of God, and no man will pull me from the foot of the Cross. Salvation is not yours to dispense or approve.
JTB1956 7 months ago
@JTB1956 - I'm not trying to shake your faith or have you change my mind. If you have TRUTH wouldn't you share it. That is all I am doing. Since you claim to also have TRUTH then one of us is mistaken. I will gladly give up any time Christ Jesus has given me to explain my perspective, will you?
PacificNW326 7 months ago
Well, I knew a mason. About as well as one can know anyone. He was my father. Just a regular guy. He wore his masonic ring when not at work. He did not talk about the masons. The truth is,though there is much being said about masons now. I have no idea if there's any truth to any of it. I keep this fact in mind when I watch vids depicting their charictor. I also keep in mind that I am not required to answer for them.Just me. If they are evil. Let them see to that.
lifeseeker51 9 months ago
@lifeseeker51 - Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
I love the men that are masons just as Christ as taught me to, but the spirits that inspire them are another story. For I too at one time lacked understanding and was an enemy to Christ, but thank I God for His Mercy & Grace.
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 If we can get the evil out of ourselves, we'll have done something extraordinary.
lifeseeker51 9 months ago
@lifeseeker51 - We can do nothing for ourselves, including getting the evil out, Christ has to do it for us.
PacificNW326 8 months ago
@PacificNW326 Right you are. Still, that doesn't absolve us from personal responsibility.
lifeseeker51 8 months ago
@lifeseeker51 - You're right, but getting the evil out of us or acting "right" or being obedient is not what it's about either. It's first and foremost about loving God back, everything else will fall into place, including how to deal with our sins before & after they happen.
PacificNW326 8 months ago
@PacificNW326 Certainly, noone has perfectly obeyed God. Only Jesus did that. Jesus was one with God and God with Jesus. That of course is what we're trying to achieve. To give up ones self entirely to God,so that one does not have any thought or deed of ones own. If such a one exists, I'd love to meet him or her.Frankly, if one were to say" I have achieved a sinless life, I do no sin",Well, That would simply not be the truth.So, we see to ourslves,not judging others.
lifeseeker51 8 months ago
@lifeseeker51 -
Philippians 4:11-13
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be
content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I
am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things
through Christ which strengtheneth me.
PacificNW326 8 months ago
@PacificNW326 I think this scripture is about one' personal circumstances. I.E. For instance, If I am with Jesus, it does not matter if I'm rich or poor, free or in bondage,ect. I am with Jesus and I do His will without regret or consideration for my circumstances. One's spiritual connection to God makes this possible. With this in mind, I say the affairs of the world, including freemasonry, are the will of God. None of my concern. I am concerned with what I am doing.
lifeseeker51 8 months ago
@lifeseeker51 - He gives us all many different ministries. The fact is I know people who are effected by freemasonry who need to taught why it's not good.
PacificNW326 8 months ago
@PacificNW326 Each individual supplicant for salvation is responsible for his or her own walk. We live or die by our choices. If I am not or never have been a mason, how can I know for shure what they are actually doing?I can surf the net for info. Anyone can say whatever they want about anyone or anything on u-tube,but, is it the truth?Also one must consider the source of this information. Who is putting this stuff out and what is their motive?
lifeseeker51 8 months ago
@lifeseeker51 - I agree with you but if one takes an oath to protect his brother masons and has to sin to keep that oath then there is where one major point about masonry falls apart. What does light have in common with darkness, don't be yoked to unbelivers because their motives are not our motives. Many "christian" men yoke themselves with un-christian brother masons.
PacificNW326 8 months ago
@PacificNW326 I think there are two kinds of Christianity. One is intellectual and one is spiritual. A spiritual Christian seeks God through the Holy Spirit and is taught through theHoly Spirit.That one is warned by the Holy Spirit when he or she is in danger of committing sin. The intellectual Christian can and often does involve his or herself in activities unsuited to a Christian. This might very well include joining in with the masons.
lifeseeker51 8 months ago
@lifeseeker51 - But in all actuality there is only one kind of Christian, the kind that follows Christ Jesus & accepts Him as their Lord & Saviour.
PacificNW326 8 months ago
@PacificNW326 Well, would not such a one be able to discern between a Christian and an occoult group? I would certainly think so.
lifeseeker51 8 months ago
... just like Masons don't go around killing each other for breaking Masonic oaths.
richcapo 9 months ago
"EXCEPT IF THEY BREAK THEIR OATHS, RIGHT?"
If a Mason breaks his oaths, he should feel guilt -- personal, moral discomfort. That's all our oaths mean.
"CHRISTianity does not allow either your scenerios and we don't even have to take an oath on it."
I know.
"there you go straight to the old testament ready to take what is written and put your own context on to it as if todays Christians are to follow it to the letter......."
I didn't say that today's Christians do. They don't, ...
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - Your exactly right, we don't follow the exact things the Jewish people had to under the Old Covenant. (Example: here's just 1 thing, we don't practice sacrife for our sins, Jesus is our sacrifice), We are under the NEW COVENANT. Also, cultural things are allowed to change, as certain things pertain only to certain people of a certian time.
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 Yes, I know.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - Do you also see the point of masonry? It has you living up to your fellow brothers expectations as though they have the highest & that you should feel guilt about not meeting their expectations. That previous statement replaces a position where God should be in your life. You should live up to His expectations as they are THE HIGHEST, you should feel guilt for not meeting them. Then your dealings with ALL your fellow brothers will fall into place. Love, PacificNW326
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 "Do you also see the point of masonry?"
Of course: To take good men and make them better.
"It has you living up to your fellow brothers expectations as though they have the highest & that you should feel guilt about not meeting their expectations."
No guilt associated with anything. And we only expect our members to treat people respect, is all, which is hardly a austere expectation.
"You should live up to His expectations as they are THE HIGHEST"
We believe we do.
Be well.
richcapo 9 months ago
We aim to, at least.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - You have contradicted yourself many times in this discussion.
"If a Mason breaks his oaths, he should feel guilt -- personal, moral discomfort. That's all our oaths mean."
"No guilt associated with anything. And we only expect our members to treat people respect, is all, which is hardly a austere expectation."
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 No, I didn't contradict myself at all: There's no guilt associated with falling to meet Masonry's "standards." There should be guilt associated with breaking our oaths. Two different things.
richcapo 9 months ago
All we ask is that people try their best to be the best men they can, which is hardly an austere standard, like I said. No man will ever become perfect. We know that and accept that, so there's no guilt in failing to become perfect. But breaking our oaths? Yes, we believe that Mason should feel guilt over that. Am I clear?
richcapo 9 months ago
PIKE, PART TWO continued:
"For the most part, men do not in their hearts believe that God is either just or merciful. They fear and shrink from His lightnings and dread His wrath. For the most part, they only _think_ they believe that there is another life, a judgment, and a punishment for sin.
richcapo 10 months ago
My PIKE, PART TWO disappeared for some reason. Here it is again:
"The God of nineteen-twentieths of the Christian world is only Bel, Moloch, Zeus, or at best Osiris, Mithras, or Adonaï, under another name, worshipped with the old Pagan ceremonies and ritualistic formulas. It is the Statue of Olympian Jove, worshipped as the Father, in the Christian Church that was a Pagan Temple; it is the Statue of Venus, become the Virgin Mary.
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE ON LUCIFER, PART TWO
"... and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired."
Hope these full quotes help.
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE ON LUCIFER
"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the
Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the
Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations ...
richcapo 10 months ago
As for Pike's "Lucifer" quote: I don't see the problem. It affirms the Christian belief that Lucifer is the Spirit of Darkness who torments the evil.
The quote is incomplete, incidentally. The following post is the complete paragraph it comes from.
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE, PART NINE
"... in all the human cesspools and sewers everywhere. Here, a sewing-woman famishes and freezes; there, mothers murder their children, that those spared may live upon the bread purchased with the burial allowances of the dead starveling; and at the next door young girls prostitute themselves for food."
And so on.
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE, PART EIGHT
"Everywhere in the world labor is, in some shape, the slave of capital;
generally, a slave to be fed only so long as he can work; or, rather,
only so long as his work is profitable to the owner of the human
chattel. There are famines in Ireland, strikes and starvation in
England, pauperism and tenement-dens in New York, misery, squalor,
ignorance, destitution, the brutality of vice and the insensibility to
shame, of despairing beggary, ...
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE, PART SEVEN
"'Shall the braggart shout for some blind glimpse of Freedom, link itself through madness, hated by the wise, to law, System and Empire?'
"Everywhere in the world labor is, in some shape, the slave of capital;
generally, a slave to be fed only so long as he can work; or, rather,
only so long as his work is profitable to the owner of the human
chattel.
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE, PART SIX
"If a Republic occasionally rises like a Star, it hastens with all speed to set in blood. The kings need not make war upon it, to crush it out of their way. It is only necessary to let it alone, and it soon lays violent hands upon itself. And when a people long enslaved shake off its fetters, it may well be incredulously asked,
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE, PART FIVE
"The philosophical and scientific world becomes daily more and more unbelieving. Faith and Reason are not opposites, in equilibrium; but antagonistic and hostile to each other; the result being the darkness and despair of scepticism, avowed, or half-veiled as rationalism.
"Over more than three-fourths of the habitable globe, humanity still
kneels, like the camels, to take upon itself the burthens to be tamely
borne for its tyrants.
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE, PART FOUR
"To curse Humanity, the Despot need only _be_, what the popular mind has, in every age, imagined God.
"In the great cities, the lower strata of the populace are equally
without faith and without hope. The others have, for the most part, a
mere blind faith, imposed by education and circumstances, and not as
productive of moral excellence or even common honesty as Mohammedanism. "Your property will be safe here," said the Moslem; "There are no Christians here."
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE, PART THREE
"Yet they will none the less persecute as Infidels and Atheists those who do not believe what they themselves imagine they believe, and which yet they do _not_believe, because it is incomprehensible to them in their ignorance and want of intellect. To the vast majority of mankind, God is but the reflected image, in infinite space, of the earthly Tyrant on his Throne, only more powerful, more inscrutable, and more implacable.
richcapo 10 months ago
PIKE, PART ONE
"Of the whole of mankind, not one in ten thousand has any aspirations
beyond the daily needs of the gross animal life. In this age and in all
others, all men except a few, in most countries, are born to be mere
beasts of burden, co-laborers with the horse and the ox. Profoundly
ignorant, even in "civilized" lands, they think and reason like the
animals by the side of which they toil. For them, God, Soul, Spirit,
Immortality, are mere words, without any real meaning.
richcapo 10 months ago
Your Pike "God of nineteen-twentieths" quote is incomplete. The full quote criticizes that 19-20ths as phony Christians -- people who profess faith in Jesus but don't truly believe in him. The quote is long. Following is the first part. Quoting it in its entirety may take a bit of time because I'm busy with other affairs at the moment.
richcapo 10 months ago
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You, however, did attempt to speak for ALL of Masonry or at least the bulk of Masonry when you wrote that: "Masonry is a way to draw spiritually minded men into bonding themselves with other men at the expense of following Christ Jesus."
Saying that would be akin to me saying that Christianity is a way to draw little boys into priests' raping beds. Just as ridiculous.
richcapo 10 months ago
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richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - Again, I am not speaking for any part of freemmasonry, not one bit. I am speaking from a Christian Biblical perspevtive, as one CHRISTian to another CHRISTian. You are just caught in the middle and with every statement you make you just further prove my points to CHRISTian viewers.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 "Again, I am not speaking for any part of freemmasonry, not one bit."
You are making statements about Masonry, so of course you are.
"I am speaking from a Christian Biblical perspevtive, as one CHRISTian to another CHRISTian."
About Christianity and Freemasonry
richcapo 10 months ago
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"Ah but I did not attempt to speak for ALL self proclaimed "christians' like you did for masons with your statement of "to be one ask one",
You are reading way too far into what I wrote. I was speaking about Masons in general, not about every single one of them. That I have admitted that there are bad apples in Masonry should tell you this. Naturally, I can't account for every Mason. I can, however, account for our doctrine, rituals, history, and my personal experiences with the Craft.
richcapo 10 months ago
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@PacificNW326 And regarding the "grand architect" of the higher degrees: He's the same as the Grand Architect of the lower degrees -- God Almighty. Again, read Morals and Dogma. And since you focus your criticism on the higher degrees, I advise you read the transcripts of the rituals of the Scottish and York Rites, and the Shrine, too. They're available in bookstores as well as all over the Internet, especially on anti-Masonic web sites.
richcapo 10 months ago
Albert Pike "talk[s] about lying to the lower degrees." Nowhere does he say the higher degrees are atheists, Satanists, or any other polemical thing. Keep in mind, by the way, that the Scottish Rite disused Pike's book decades ago and in its preface to his Morals and Dogma, criticizes him for projecting too much of his own beliefs onto Masonic doctrine. It also advises Masons to ignore whatever he dislikes of Pike's theories.
Read Morals and Dogma. You'll see the truth.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - Your statement SOUND good & true except for the fact that just about all the cerimonies and rites that you initiates do as you pass from one degree into the next is based on Pike's on thoughts,interpretations, & writings. Furthermore, if what you say is the truth then they would have taken down every single "shrine"/statue of Pike. And there would be a lack of freemasons that hold tight to Pike's teachings, but instead we see multiple interviews of masons that are just the opposite.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 Pike wrote the Scottish Rite degrees, but not those of the Blue Lodge, the York Rite, the Shrine, or any other body. His rituals are almost exclusively Christian in nature, by the way, and he rejects "all the pomps and works of Lucifer" in his magnum opus, Morals and Dogma. All that stuff about worshipping Lucifer and planning three world wars come from two proven hoaxes -- Taxil and the Mazzini Letter Hoax. There's nothing to them. Read Morals and Dogma and Pike's background.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - "christian" masons bind themselves through oaths to other masons that are not "christian". By doing this you against Christ Jesus' own teachings. So by demonstrating that you exhibit that fact that masonic teachings are more important than Christ's teachings. This clearly shows, those with eyes to see, what/who you and your kind really serve. If Jesus was more important to you you would honor His teachings above those of mason's. 2nd Cor 6:14, please look it up & define for me.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 > "christian" masons bind themselves through oaths to other masons that are not "christian".
I agree. I've said Christian and Masonic doctrine are incompatible several times.
> By doing this you against Christ Jesus' own teachings. So by demonstrating that you exhibit that fact that masonic teachings are more important than Christ's teachings.
Correct.
> This clearly shows, those with eyes to see, what/who you and your kind really serve.
Humanity, imo; the Devil in Xians'.
richcapo 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 > If Jesus was more important to you
He's not, as I already said numerous times.
> you would honor His teachings above those of mason's.
If I believed in Christ, yes, I would obviously do so.
> 2nd Cor 6:14, please look it up & define for me.
Christians should stay away from non-Christians. Not an opinion I share, but so mote it be.
richcapo 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 The Scottish Rite owes a very big debt to Pike. He essentially save the SR from extinction and laid the groundwork for the egalitarian, multi-racial Masonry we have today, which is ironic given how racist he is. Like the slave owning American fathers, he was a hypocrite. He didn't practice the openness he preached. Personally, I say racism is evil; so I say he was evil. His M&D philosophies and rituals and his efforts to keep the SR together, though, are admirable nonetheless.
richcapo 10 months ago
Masonry's "atheistic intents"? Masonry prohibits atheists from joining its ranks and forbids its members to knowingly sit with an atheist in Lodge. One has to believe in God to be eligible for membership in the Craft.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - Yes masonry's "atheistic intents", the goal of masonry is to perfect man so that he can usurp god. Masons believe that they too can become a god. So yeah they're atheist at heart because they do not beliece in God the Almighty, ALL POWERFUL.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 You are obviously very passionate about your beliefs, and I commend that. Nevertheless, I have to point out that you are wrong: Masonic doctrine has nothing to do with elevating man above God. (Neither does atheist theory, obviously, since it doesn't believe in God to begin with -- you can't usurp what doesn't exist).
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - I do not deny the fact that many lodges do not accept proclaimed atheists. But at it's core and in it's higher degrees, we all know who masons think their "grand architect" is. And they too believe that they themselves can become like this "architect". They believe that there is no Almighty God and with that belief they are atheists, for denying the One & Only Creator. And you can say what ever you want but in their own writings they talk about lying to the lower degrees.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
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richcapo 10 months ago
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richcapo 10 months ago
The "Lucifer" quote is a hoax quote: It comes from a non-existent letter between Pike and Giuseppe Mazzini. Pike despised Lucifer, which he makes clear in Morals and Dogma when he writes that a good man "aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer." Page 321.
And Pike's assertion that Lucifer tortures evil men ("blinds feeble, sensual, and selfish men") is perfectly keeping with Christian doctrine -- it is Christian doctrine, actually. That's what Lucifer does.
richcapo 10 months ago
ON PIKE, PART SIX
Quote continued:
"To curse Humanity, the Despot need only be, what the popular mind has, in every age, imagined God.
In the great cities, the lower strata of the populace are equally without faith and without hope. The others have, for the most part, a mere blind faith, imposed by education and circumstances, and not as productive of moral excellence or even common honesty as Mohammedanism.
richcapo 10 months ago
ON PIKE, PART FOUR
Quote continued:
"It is the Statue of Olympian Jove, worshiped as the Father, in the Christian Church that was a Pagan Temple; it is the Statue of Venus, become the Virgin Mary. For the most part, men do not in their hearts believe that God is either just or merciful. They fear and shrink from His lightnings and dread his wrath. For the most part, they only think they believe that there is another life, a judgment, and a punishment for sin.
richcapo 10 months ago
ON PIKE, PART THREE
Quote continued:
"Profoundly ignorant, even in "civilized" lands, they think and reason like the animals by the side of which they toil. For them, God, Soul, Spirit, immortality, are mere words, without any real meaning. The God of nineteen-twentieths of the Christian world is only Bel, Moloch, Zeus, or at best Osiris, Mithras, or Adonaï, under another name, worshiped with the old Pagan ceremonies and ritualistic formulas.
richcapo 10 months ago
ON PIKE, PART TWO
Here's the full quote:
"Of the whole of mankind, not one in ten thousand has any aspirations beyond the daily needs of the gross animal life. In this age and in all others, all men except a few, in most countries, are born to be mere beasts of burden, co-laborers with the horse and the ox.
richcapo 10 months ago
ON PIKE, PART ONE
The Pike quote is wildly out of context and incomplete. Had it been quoted in whole and in its actual context, it would show the viewer that Pike was criticizing that nineteen-twentieths of the Christian world as ignorant, beastly phonies.
richcapo 10 months ago
I have been a Mason for thirteen years, and I have never once heard, read, or watched any brother actually put any stock in the idea that Masonry dates back to the times before Christ. It's all just so much myth that we use to illustrate the moral and civil beliefs we uphold as sacred. Nothing more than that.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - Masonry is a way to draw spiritually minded men into bonding themselves with other men at the expense of following Christ Jesus. You would have to sin against Christ Jesus if you ever had to lie to protect a fellow masonis brother. Futher more what make a "christian" mason brother more important than a Christian Brother? Does Christ instruct us to not take oaths or vows? All paths DO NOT LEAD UP THE MOUNTAIN.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 "Masonry is a way to draw spiritually minded men into bonding themselves with other men at the expense of following Christ Jesus." We don't draw anyone away, because we don't recruit. People have to approach Masons to become Masons. "You would have to sin against Christ Jesus if you ever had to lie to protect a fellow masonis brother." I'm not Christian, so sinning against Christ means nothing to me.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - I often hear from masons that you don't recruit or "to be one ask one" but sadly that is not the whole truth. There are many former masons that have come to Christ that TESTIFY to the opposite. And to you last part..............then most of my point of view will be obtuse to you since this video is predominantly for CHRISTians curious about the biblical perspective of the mixing of CHRISTianity & freemasonry and their ilk.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 "I often hear from masons that you don't recruit or "to be one ask one" but sadly that is not the whole truth."
There are always bad apples, no doubt.
"There are many former masons that have come to Christ that TESTIFY to the opposite."
I'll have to take your word on that.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - If there are so-called "bad apple" then your previous statement is null, agreed?
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 I don't agree, no. No institution is perfect. There are rapists sitting in the pews, too, for instance, but that doesn't indict Christianity as a whole. Same thing with Masonry.
It's important to be honest and fair here, or we're not going to be able to have any meaningful dialogue.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - Ah but I did not attempt to speak for ALL self proclaimed "christians' like you did for masons with your statement of "to be one ask one", when it's been demonstrated that, that is not the case.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
".then most of my point of view will be obtuse to you since this video is predominantly for CHRISTians curious about the biblical perspective of the mixing of CHRISTianity & freemasonry and their ilk."
To the contrary given that I attended a Christian high school and university and was a devout Christian for the first twenty or so years of my life, and given how much knowledge of, and experience in, Masonry I have. It's important that your Christian viewers hear from both "ilks."
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - I agree having both side's opinions present are greatly beneficial to the video viewers. But as Christ Jesus taught (and you should know then) that if you ever left Christ that is because you never really were with Him in the 1st place. There is a HUGE difference in knowing ABOUT Christ Jesus and...........KNOWING CHRIST JESUS. May I suggest that you only knew ABOUT Him and you lacked that personal relationship w/ Him.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 "But as Christ Jesus taught (and you should know then) that if you ever left Christ that is because you never really were with Him in the 1st place."
That's fine, but it doesn't change what I know about both Masonry and Christianity. On a side note, even if I didn't know anything about Christianity, I could still contribute meaningfully to this conversation because of all I know about Masonry -- same as a Christian who knows nothing about Masonry could.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - Truthfully I welcome any chance I get to have a meaningful talk about my Lord & Savior. I am not assuming, I am going off of your own statements, and since I know of many men that are not masons that contribute positively to society then I suggested that it's lack of exposure because those men are out there just about everywhere.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
"May I suggest that you only knew ABOUT Him and you lacked that personal relationship w/ Him."
No need to ask my permission to suggest anything. I'd just like you to stop making assumptions about me.
Whether I ever "knew Christ" or not is moot to me because we are still discussing the facts about Freemasonry.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - You brought up your "christian" past not me. If you wish to not discuss moot points then don't bring them up if you think they are.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 "You brought up your "christian" past not me."
Yes, to establish that I have knowledge about Christianity, not to establish that I ever "knew Christ." We're discussing facts here.
"If you wish to not discuss moot points then don't bring them up if you think they are."
I haven't brought up anything I consider moot, you have. I'm just trying to debate the facts about Masonry as they pertain to the facts about Christianity: Such as the incompatibility between their doctrines.
richcapo 10 months ago
@richcapo - Sorry but you are fighting a battle you can not win. There are way too many issues with freemasonry that the Bible just desroys verse after verse. 2nd, since you're not a CHRISTian you are not capable of explaining to CHRISTians about how the two can be mixed cohesively. But, please keep on trying as you just continue to further my points.
PacificNW326 10 months ago
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richcapo 10 months ago
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@PacificNW326 "since you're not a CHRISTian you are not capable of explaining to CHRISTians about how the two can be mixed cohesively."
"Incompatible" is what I wrote.
richcapo 10 months ago
@PacificNW326 Have you read my replies and seen that you and I are in agreement -- that doctrinal Christianity and Freemasonry are incompatible.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - I have read your replies, so as the title explains the 2 really are incompatible (though we have differing reasons as to why). Your comments just further my arguement.
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 Obviously, yes, we agree. And there was never any need for the hostility. I deserve an apology -- it would be the Christian thing to do, yes?
God bless.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - there was never any hostility, but my apologies if you percieved any. After further thought you say I worship the devil & you god. But, I say just the opposite, I worship God the Creator, who is also the God of Love & Forgivenss as revealed through Christ Jesus (who also taught to turn the other cheek). You, a mason, are bound by oath to KILL another mason if he divulges your "secrets". So, who really worships the devil, the one sworn to kill or the one that loves?
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 I never said you worship the devil, and I don't believe you do -- where are you getting that from? As for our oaths, they are entirely symbolic.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - Of course they are "symbolic" now, You wouldn't want another William Morgan on your hands this day & age? Again, YOU ARE ALLOWED TO PRACTICE SUBTERFUGE (lying to the "profane"), christians are not. So, your statements could all be lies anyways, regardless of what you claim them to be. Do you see the fallacy in serving the dark force of subterfuge/ lies/ deceit?
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 We pledge to keep secret our modes of recognition; we are commanded to do nothing that violates our obligations to society. As for Morgan: We have no idea what happened to him. I believe he probably was murdered by three deranged Masons, but that would be only one Masonic murder in in nearly three hundred years. How many Xian rapists and murderers have there been? How many molesters have been protected by the Church? How many crusading Xian anti-Masons lie about their research?
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - Again ---S-U-B-T-E-R-F-U-G-E look it up!! Morgan=1 murder that the public has heard about. Jesus does not teach to kill so if a "christian" practices that, is he really a CHRISTian? A little defensive are you? I do NOT have an answer for why so-called "christians" do non-CHRISTian things except for the fact that they are not really CHRISTians. In the same way I can join the masons & do unmasonic things just to make them look bad, but again that would be ,SUBTERFUGE.
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 You have no proof to support the idea that there have been more Masonic murders. However, for the sake of argument, I will say that there have been: That still wouldn't indict the whole of Masonry any more than the many, many rapes by priests indicts the whole of Christianity.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - EXCEPT for the FACT that masons take oaths to kill other masons for divulging their "secrets", regardless of it's "symbology", YOU STILL TAKE THAT OATH. Which has been demonstrated at least once in public history that it is to be followed up on. So you lasty statement is WHOLEY WRONG. CHRISTians take ZERO oaths, not 1 about molestaion(though it's wrong) or muder (though it's wrong).
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 We don't take oaths to murder other Masons. We take oaths against ourselves. At no point in our rituals do we say we will harm brother Masons who break their oaths. As for Christians not taking oaths: I did not say they did.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - No not exaclty but you likened them to being the same. Which they are NOT! Because they are NOT the same.......................And I'm done with you for now, Good Day!!
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 Likened what to being the same?
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - The death of Morgan at the hands of masons (who do you expect to slit your throat & cut your bowls if you break THEIR oaths?) and rape by priests are not the same. For the record, being a catholic (and thier priests) & being CHRISTian are different. You likened masons, their oaths & murder akin to rape by priests, - "That still wouldn't indict the whole of Masonry any more than the many, many rapes by priests indicts the whole of Christianity."
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 Masons take an oath of non-violence against other Masons and are required to circumscribe all their passions to all men, Mason or otherwise, which makes the murder of a brother, or anyone, against Masonic doctrine. And again, the oaths are merely symbolic. We make that clear to everyone who joins. So as I said before, a Mason who murders another Mason or anyone is no more a Mason than a Christian who rapes a child is a Christian. The only difference is that Masonic doctrine ...
richcapo 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 ... explicitly prohibits hurting a brother, while Christianity does not explicitly prohibit raping a child. Of course, the Old Testament does permit stoning children to death, as well as murdering women who are raped. Masonry permits none of that.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - EXCEPT IF THEY BREAK THEIR OATHS, RIGHT? Of course CHRISTianity does not allow either your scenerios and we don't even have to take an oath on it. Christians follow God as revealed through Christ Jesus, thus we under the New Covenant. Unlike the Jewsish people before Christ, they were under tthe Old Covenant. But, there you go straight to the old testament ready to take what is written and put your own context on to it as if todays Christians are to follow it to the letter.......
PacificNW326 9 months ago
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@PacificNW326 "who do you expect to slit your throat & cut your bowls if you break THEIR oaths?"
Lest this wasn't made clear before, the answer is: No one. It's only symbolic.
richcapo 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 "Jesus does not teach to kill so if a "christian" practices that, is he really a CHRISTian?"
And Masonry does not teach Masons to kill. It teaches that its oaths are symbolic of how a man should feel for betraying a solemn pledge. Masonry teaches tolerance and non-violence, so if a "Mason" practices otherwise, is he really a Mason? No.
"In the same way I can join the masons & do unmasonic things just to make them look bad."
One can act un-Masonically because they are nuts.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - All this & do you realize that the degrees that are higher than you are allowed to lie to you. So even if what you say is what you have been taught it does not mean it is the truth.
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 If you've read Morals and Dogma, you'll see just what Pike was keeping secret in the 29th to 32nd degrees -- none of it was nefarious, and all of it is disclosed now, and has been for long, to each initiate of the Scottish Rite over the course of one or two days of morality plays. It no longer takes years to advance up the Scottish Rite, so it's no longer possible to hide anything from SR Masons, nor to any Mason since everything is available publicly.
richcapo 9 months ago
However, for the sake of argument I'll say that the upper degrees' secrets are very well guarded to this day: That wouldn't matter to me, since I know what those secrets are, and they bother me none, and that's because I see nothing evil in them. Incompatible with doctrinal Christianity? Yes, no doubt, but that's okay with me because they instruct us in moral philosophies that I find beautifully virtuous.
FYI, the Scottish Rite criticizes Pike for putting too much of his own beliefs in M&D.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo The Rite also recommends that we toss out whatever we do not like of Morals and Dogmas, and it does this in its preface to the book, which it no longer issues to Scottish Rite Masons, and has not done so since the 1970s.
richcapo 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 Contrary to what Pike wished to be, the higher degrees don't lie to anyone. We make his book freely available to the public and make it exceedingly easy for our brethren to go up its ranks. We also welcome the opportunity to discuss his writings in the open; we don't run from it.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - Also, your problem isn't that Pike wrote about glorifying "lucifer", it is that his writings reached the profane. So now you must attempt to alter it's meanings so that is is not as controversial as to put off future members. Regardless, you are allowed to lie to me as much as you want since you are an "adept" and I a "profane". You miss the vid wholely though as Pike was just extra for the audience the real meat was the verses that describe masonry to a "T" since B4 the of Jesus.
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 I don't alter anything that Pike wrote, just quote it.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - Semantics ------- Maybe you did not but other masons have then. There are plenty of issues of "morals & dogmas" out there that have what I have quoted.
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 There are no semantics involved in it any way, and I find your attempt to trivialize the affront of your accusation childish, dishonest, and insulting. You accused me of saying you worship the devil. I didn't. There's no splitting verbal hairs about it. As for the issues you have with Morals and Dogma, none of them have anything to do with the idea that Masons worship demonic beings, and that's because the book does not say or even hint that Masons worship Satan ...
richcapo 9 months ago
... which YOU, not "others" have accused Masons of doing during our exchange here. Please take responsibility for your misguided actions.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - As for Pike, all I did was quote his very own writings from 'morals & dogmas'. You are the one telling me what I quoted was wrong, If it is wrong then his writings have changed since their 1st being published. I never changed his writings. I they changed it is most likely due to his ideas being to cotroversial for the average man which is just about right, since it was originally written for masons from a mason, until it fell into the hands of the "profane", then it "changes".
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 You partially quoted Morals and Dogma and twisted what you partially quoted from it about Lucifer as proof that Pike and the rest of the Craft worship the Devil. Why didn't you add the preceding sentences that establish Pike's belief that good men "despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer"; and why did you post Pike's Christian belief that Lucifer punishes the wicked as proof that he's a devil worship -- it doesn't make a shred of sense that you did.
richcapo 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 Pike's writings have never been changed. Early copies of Morals and Dogma -- those given to initiates of the Scottish Rite -- are available online, in Masonic libraries, university libraries, and public libraries. They are also available to read for free on many anti-Masonic websites. A quick Google search will show you this.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo - Ok then great. Though you have ignored many other points of disagreement now all you are doing is just bringing this discussion into circles. So unless you have something more important to discuss other that moot semantics, Good Day!!
PacificNW326 9 months ago
@PacificNW326 I haven't ignored any of your points. If I've overlooked them, then I apologize. Please re-state what they are, and I will answer them as best I can, as quickly as I can.
As for "moot semantics" -- do you know what moot means and semantics are?
richcapo 9 months ago
"Futher more what make a "christian" mason brother more important than a Christian Brother?" Whether Mason or not, a man's commitment, should he follow it, to treat men of all faiths with respect and to serve his family and community -- Masonic and non-Masonic -- with dignity, charity, and brotherhood, makes him better than those who don't make and don't follow this commitment, in my opinion. In my experience the greatest number of men who make and follow this commitment are Masons.
richcapo