Gurdjieff / De Hartmann - Persian Song [AUDIO]

[fredericch]

check out the Kickstarter project for Hymns and Dervishes CD

[TheMagicEast]

this stuff is just awesome

[MateusTTTT]

Nobody, not even G or G-sus, holds The Truth, yet everybody holds truths.

It is all within our eyes, not only the ones from the body, but from the soul and the mind.

We can all learn from God, and interiorize his Word, like Jesus did.. And we do that not only from the Bible, but from our lives.

[TheMagicEast]

@MateusTTTT indeed

[remindbender]

science~f(rrr)iction yeah! fuck the rumours what a bout! the drags and drop outs & no working signed by the not working? watching the news the chosen fews will be starred back intro microbiotopics by the in~human workin machine not marchin' over ground that's reason! you're well E co(no:on)me back slack ;-) *slangel*

[alsore2008]

I kind of hear G say, good (goal), not die like a dog.

[supralee]

@alsore2008 die like a dog with no worry whatever:)

[melly003]

it sounds so lovely!!!!

[whowantstogetnaked]

i don't know why this song is called persian song...persian songs don't really sound like this.

[abipordha]

to listen to this music ears only are not enough.

[Belle19700]

I heard Gurdjieff's music was always meaningful, magical, and able to heal and transform. Is there truth to that?

[nayma11]

Why don't you study this if it interests you, do you want just to get other people's opinion or do you really want to know?

[Belle19700]

I have studied some on my own. I did the stop exercise a lot, then I went back and looked at things through new eyes, and I was, how do you say it, lifted up for 5 days. I couldn't feel my feet touching the ground. I didn't feel so much pain, and anguish. It was an experience that rocked my world. I now believe that Jesus could have walked on water, because I think maybe if U do this many times, you will be lifted up even more. Gurdjieff knew plenty alright. How do I study more?

[nayma11]

I wish I knew, i am just struggling myself in the absence of someone who has attained something higher. For now just the influence of books and other people that are trying, i wish you good luck

[Belle19700]

I wanted to join the Gurdjieff society in, I think, Seattle, but they want you to give up everything you have, all money, to them, to join. I know they have knowledge, because of what's happened to me, but I'm won't give anything to any group, who lords themselves over people. I'll do it myself. I had more action, than many of them, and I'll do it again. Honesty is the key, and the, "Stop exercise."

[CT2507]

how do u do the stop exercise? one can not do it on ones own.

i think its good u stayed away from the Gurdjeff society in Seattle. Gurdiejff didn't leave any successors to continue the school. there are no masters now within that system, so they can only take u to a certain point and might leave u even more confused later on.

[Belle19700]

That's very interesting that Gurdjieff didn't leave any successors. I didn't know that. From what I can tell, I've had really good results all by myself. I don't like groups. I never join any.

The Stop Exercise is very simple. You just stop breathing, hold your breath as long as you can stand it, whenever you think to do it. Close your eyes though, or they will burn really bad. This alters the breathing rhythm, brings you closer to the sprit world. It worked for me very easily. Keep in touch.

[CT2507]

i understand how u feel about groups. but groups are necessary. we can only learn and evolve very little on our own. Gurdijeff was also part of several groups, and without them he wouldn't have been able to put together his system.

i hadn't heard about that type of stop-exercise. but if u feel helped then i guess its ok.

cheers.

[Belle19700]

The Stop Exercise is right out of Gurdjieff's textbooks.

Well, if groups are necessary, I hope I can find a good group. I'll look around.

[CT2507]

its far from it my friend. Gurdijeffs stop exercise involves stoping and freezing the emotional state as well as the body at the time when the stop order is given. plus u must be aware of your emotional and bodily state, which involves the intelect.

so, 3 parts of u are active. body, emotions and intellect at the same time.

furthermore, the stop exercise cannot be done alone. someone else must give the stop and free order! or u will tend to chose only easy positions that don't really help u.

[Belle19700]

So, what has happened to you, from doing the stop exercise this way? What are the results?

[CT2507]

oh i never did the stop exercise. only read about it in his books.

im not part of any Gurdijeff society, exactly because he didn't leave any successor. and he told, exactly in regards to the stop exercise, that the stop caller MUST be a master who can FEEL the others, and know if they are about to strain a muscle or burst a blood vessel!

so the fact that they are actively doing the stop exercise within the Gurdijeff society is another clear sign that they have no master now!

[Belle19700]

Don't listen to anyone who says that there is more to the Stop Exercise, than just doing it. Probably, when Gurdjieff was there, things went even better than what happened to me. What I did worked. I could not feel my feet touching the ground. I swear, I think it is possible to walk on water. When we are lifted up, by personal honesty, and techniques, I don''t think we are bound by laws of the earth, i.e. gravity. Do it. At least know that it is possible. Thanks.

[CT2507]

im talking of Gurdjieffs own indications about the stop technique. its in his books. not what others say about it.

[Belle19700]

Maybe when he was present, things "would" go really well, much better. I am still so glad that his techniques work somewhat without him.

[tdogify]

dont hold yur breath, yur doing it wrong

[Belle19700]

I don't know if this is directed at me. I did what Gurdjieff said. I did the stop exercise, by just holding my breath whenever I thought to do it. Then one day, I thought of a past incident that bothered me. I looked at it with adult eyes. I was responsible in the incident, and I didn't realize this before. Felt like baloon enlarging in my rib cage, prana or whatever, filled my rib cage, and for 5 days, I couldn't feel feet touching the ground. I felt better than ever. What results have you had?

[CT2507]

if u are earnest, u will have results with what ever technique u choose to do... i myself invented a tecnique of meditation that acutualy for a brief moment opened my third eye. i didnt know what i was doing, but becuase i worked at it seriously it gave results.

with Gurdjieffs methods i also had some nice results. one time at a nightclub i entered in a strange state where my mind kinda stood still, and everything was fascniating to look at. hard to explain...

[Belle19700]

Your experiences sound very interesting. I know you're telling truth here, because I also did this. I find it difficult to do these things on a consistent basis. It's almost as if there is a time for the physical mediocrity, and then a time for the spiritual. What I learned from Gurdjieff, is self-honesty, and technique are the keys. I am convinced that it is about self-honesty; knowing thyself. When U realize the real truth about yourself, it changes you inside, and lifts you up, with technique

[CT2507]

yes. self-honesty is also one of the things i best remember about the teachings of Gurdjieff. although to really practice it is not at all easy. certainly not on ones own. i found that being in a yoga group for several years was much more challenging on the self-honesty part, than going solo.

so if one realy intends to do work, im sure progress is accelerated in a group.

take care.

[Belle19700]

The self-honesty, after doing the Stop Exercise for a couple of weeks, is what lifted me up. I couldn't feel my feet touching the ground. I swear, I think it is possible to walk on water. I don't think there is any difference between land and water now. It's all the same illusion. I don't know how a group would benefit me. Our problems fall into categories of greed, pride, et cetera. I'm going more on situations, in which I felt abused, treated badly. We R responsible no matter what. Scary.

[CT2507]

i did his "remembering" technique when taking walks through town. i would as often as i could, remind myself to "remember" my self!

ofcorse its hard, and in the beginning almost painfully so. often i would forget for long stretches of time and get cought in my daydreamings. so to aid myself i would use markers. every time i saw a red street light, or a red car or a bus, i would check if i was still "remembering" myself.

after a while i had some success which manifested as a state of euphoria.

[nayma11]

Hi Belle, I read what you said about the stop exercise, and what you were doing is not it. Actually Gurdjieff statea very clearly that we should not do any breathing exercises on our own as the results could not be predictible, the human machine is fragile. Have you read "Meetings with remarkable men"? Just be careful with what you are practice without any guidance.

[Belle19700]

I keep hearing that I did the exercise wrong. How come it worked? Have fU elt prana blowing up inside your chest? Have you walked around for 5 days, not being able to feel your feet touching the earth? I was lifted up. It was a remakable experience, and brought results, which is what I wanted. There seem to be a lot of Gurdjieff experts around, but they don't seem to have had any action, and Gurdjieff was into action. Obviouusly, the techniques "do" work when alone. I know they do.

[JLeo777]

Belle, people warn about breathing exercises because your human machine has coime to work in a certain way. When you start practing different breathing methods, you start to change the manner the machine functions naturally. Everything is connected, although in the wrong way, and everything in you is functionings. Although these functions happen outside of your initiative. You can't change one thing without effecting something else. A change in breathing, may effect you when you literally sleep

[JLeo777]

It's not that one can't do these on their own, it's best if they do it among an individual who knows. So they can be thorougly educated in the body and know exactly what they are doing and where they are going with this. When you breath differently, you are using the muscles differently, even new muscles that have never been related with your breath. It would be better to try to be conscious of the natural working of the breath -- after a while other things can come, but be careful

[JLeo777]

The thing is you could put your machine into a state of shock and discord, may even injure yourself. There are steps to things. One must take on exercises and methods in keeping with their level of being -- they must work from where they are at and not take on things hat they do not yet understand, unless they are among others who have done these things and know where it goes and what it is about.

[JLeo777]

A person can't really do stop exercise by themselves. You need someone that is outside of you to tell you when to stop and when to go. Man wants the least resistance.

[JLeo777]

That's not the stop-exercise, well at least not what is called the "famous" stop exercise. Stop exercise deals with "pausing" everything that you are doing and maintaining that position at the moment someone says stop. So if you were walking up some stairs and someone said STOP! -- YOU HAD TO MAINTAIN THE TENSION IN YOUR BODY OF THAT POSITION, AND FEEL EVERYTHING UNTIL THE PERSON SAYS RELEASE, OR gives the ok to move again.

As for breathing, that is holding the breath between the polarities.

[Belle19700]

What'sthe difference between stopping whenever you think of it, right where you R, and holding your breath? When you do this, you maintain the tension, and feel. What the hell did you think I was doing, or what would someone else do? Stop Exercise is nothing more than holding your breath when you think of it, and freezing. Again, what results have you had? I had amazing results with the way that I do things. I now know that it is most likely that it is possible to walk on water. I'm waiting.

[JLeo777]

Belle, the question isn't if I had results. Because I have had more than many results with the conscious labors I have done -- the thing here is that if you are opened to understand just a bit more, maybe you could take what you have exercised and add it into a greater more compassing work.

The Stop exercise is to help one remember themselves, but the whole of them -- it is to build, if you will, an artificial self remembering. A 3 centered connection....

[JLeo777]

Belle, I am not sure why it appears as though you get bothered that people say to you, that this is not it. This is identification, you would do well see yourself and feel what is invoked in you.. You said self honesty was very important, right? Why not have that self honesty now? Why not reevaluate what is being said, maybe you do have terms mixed up? Where is the humility? The sincerity?

A lot can be experienced with breath work. Stop exercise is different. Read ISOM again.

[JLeo777]

If I spoke about what I did experience, in such a comments on youtube, it would be to puff myself up, as if I have achieved something miraculous, at least that is what one "I" of myself thinks. I will not feed the illusion, I have experienced much -- but until everything becomes a constant state, it is as snow. What matters is what becomes permanent in you, the acquiring of Soul-Birth, of that Level of Being.

I have experienced what you speak of, and can do so any time.

[Belle19700]

When I speak of the Stop Exercise, and what happened to me, people say that I did it wrong. I say, then how come it worked? I see many people who think they know everything, and others don't. Where's their humility? All I'm doing is trying to get through to very thick-headed people, that U don't have to have a master to make progress, results. Holding breath makes spirit come out just a little, and R connected to both worlds. That's all it is. Constant state is the hard part.

[JLeo777]

Whatever you did, gave you results -- it takes some principles out of the actual exercise, but that exercise is different.

I don't see anyone saying they know everything. I see some people, telling you that the stop exercise is different. And you fighting this by saying you have had results with what you did. This doesn't make it the actual exercise.

I could explain what is happening, when you hold your breath and why breath work is important (polarity breathing, solar plexus breathing)

[nayma11]

That was exactly what I was trying to say. Anything you do to the machine gives some results, it doesnt mean you know what you are doing, that's why i think its so important to have a guide. I had many results over the years myself and this is the conclusion i've reached. And about the stop exercise, anyone who has read Gurdjieff and Ouspensky knows that no one can do it by themselves and that it doesnt mean holding your breath, it is something much more complex.

[JLeo777]

Yes, Nayma. Any type of work will have results when you tweak with your machine, but these results may not be what one in their bobtailed reason, believes would occur. With someone who knows, you lessen the opportunities to have results that could hinder greater results later on.

However, this doesn't mean that having a guide wil mean this will not happen. It depends on your attention. Gurdjieff said his system could create crazies.

[JLeo777]

Yes the stop exercise is more than holding breath. Breath work Gurdjieff didn't discuss out in the open, because you must have a certain sufficient amount of knowledge of the working of your organism, to begin to breath work, otherwise, you may do something that will not give the desired results.

Gurdjieffs system at some point needs a teacher, because of its uniqueness. However Gurdjieff died, and Gurdjieff said a teaching dies with its founder.. This is very evident in the 4th Way movement.

[LarsYenin]

if the work dies with the founder, then the founder failed.

[JLeo777]

The founder can not force inner transformation.

If a tree is cut at its root, the whole tree will die. But it takes time for a tree to fully die, even after that, it still remains, in a form, until nature discards it.

The teaching, although dying with Gurdjieff, is slowly degenerating. Now, it is possible for something to come alive out of it, but that is another story. While it is in a slow death, much can be taken from it. Schools still exist.

[alpidistra]

@JLeo777 Though a tree may be cut in appearance, spiritually, the tree remains because any idea emanating from the Divine Mind is eternal and cannot be destroyed. Nothing dies, including knowledge and teachings, they may pass from outward appearance, but they remain within. Nothing is ever lost.

[JLeo777]

@alpidistra This is fine if you believe this. Yes ideas remain, but the idea is without the founder to show what his teachings are, given the multitude that sleep, the teachings will suffer, what Gurdjieff would call "wiseacring". This has happened with every genuine religion on the development of man.Without the teacher and close disciples, it will fall into degeneration.

But yes nothing is loss, but when mixed with ordinary life, much depth becomes obscured which was once there. 

[alpidistra]

@JLeo777 There is the material world discerned by the so-called five senses and there is the world of infinite Spirit which the body is not cognizant of. In the Spiritual world, all things are expressed perfectly and harmoniously in eternity. A teaching is simply a glimpse into this world and though things may appear to the body to degenerate, all in fact remains intact. We must not be discouraged by what we see with the eyes.

[supralee]

@alpidistra so called teachings are just silence do u have that?

[remindbender]

@supralee what about so called questions?? so no answer is also an answer to no question is never a question you dont know an answer ortwo!!! ontologicallY this is not about being spiritual fuel but raw in the sense/s...dial*H*lectics. silence pleased. *T*ankh you.

[supralee]

@remindbender no questions so no answers.any moment if you do that u have very still mind:)

[remindbender]

@supralee ...pleasure... and...land...no(dead)end...liv­ing...all that...on the other hand... yes on*to*lo *G* basics no fee*links? like a microphon(X) on a telescop or a telephon on a microscop(Y). most of theM~Basses "argo" between ph*aces. cry*sys: crossing the (b)order li(n)es! s/haven s/hore s/hell. spell: raven mo' tell ;-)

[supralee]

@remindbender no training nothing happens in fact all those gurus have some ki8nd of training we can do the same and much more:)they do did training and basically their training has has helped them became better.if we live in those words and not in hard training we are as empty as any clever mumba dumba:)

[remindbender]

@supralee an ordinary man won't tell good from evil. an ordinary trainee won't tell good from better to worst case scenario's best friends without within. lies? wisdom??quiz doom??? (t)ask force(d)...

eyes don't judge . eye do see(d) you (used to be) in me (know how don't you know why either :) armed with is harmed by an empty gun ;-)

[supralee]

@remindbender stop talking start training!you will be your own trainer and end the story.free like a bird!:)

[remindbender]

@supralee day~light years (t)ears (t)raining... we feel for free don't need no feed no place to flee! 'nuff stuff said ;-)

[supralee]

@remindbender supralee day-dreamers are light years away of any training...feel free them let go and enjoy yourself in any place for free:)bye:)

[olmgitnhftws]

@JLeo777 Gurdjieff liked Paul (No John, George, Ringo jokes, please) according to JGB, anyway Paul said, "Star differs from star in glory."

[JLeo777]

@alpidistra ... in fact what I just explained, this happens occurring to Law, the Law of Octaves to be precise. But what you say is not wrong. Gurdjieff was the one who said a teaching dies with him who brought it. Check out In search of the Miraculous to see what I mean.

[alpidistra]

@JLeo777 Thank you for your comment. I do intend to read that book.

[supralee]

@alpidistra dont read but listen, listen:)otherwise u miss all:)

[supralee]

@JLeo777 teachings never live long if noone has practise them:)

[alpidistra]

@LarsYenin Truth never fails because Truth is the only reality. A teacher simply brings out Truth into demonstration and manifestation. He does not create it himself. There is no failure, every era has its teachers. Truth remains ONE and eternal. A work never dies.

[JLeo777]

Breath work is important, so important that G never spoke about it openly -- because you have to have a god deal of real knowledge about your organism, before attempting any breath work.

However, about the system, it's sort of a dead one. G system was very dependent on a teacher for practical work. Gurdjieff said a teaching dies when the founder of it dies. It's like a fruit tree which root has died its fruits turn to rot.

[nayma11]

Yeah, i know exactly what you mean but it is very hard to just accept that you might not be able to work at all and that even the results you thought you had are not what you expected to be. Gurdjieff used to say that the best thing is that we have nothing to lose anyway. So what is the answer then?

[JLeo777]

Yes you can't lose what you don't have, however, when you do have you can surely LOSE it and one should think before they start anything. Hence:

"Blessed is he who has a soul and blessed is he who doesn't have a soul but woe unto him who only has a soul in its conception."

But yes, right now, it is better to work then not too. However one must keep in mind the prospect that they should be careful what they wish for.

[JLeo777]

You don't need to be master to have results. If you were a master you would be the result, you would have done everything -- you would KNOW, in the true sense, in being. Because to know is to know all.

Results are for those who are still striving. A master has already arrived. And believe me, Gurdjieff was not a perfect man -- but he went very far, a master in what he brought.

[JLeo777]

Part of an important aspect of the work, is self-observation. You can't worry so much at what people are doing, because more or less you are internal considering about them and in any case you can not do anything about their manifestations -- but you can do something about the functions in you, as to how their manifestations effect you.

Saying I did this because of this, that I doing this because they did that, is an effect of identification. Observe yourself, impartially, to your capacity.

[LarsYenin]

interesting...

[JLeo777]

No -- I would not say Gurdjieff didn't leave any successors... rather the majority of his students only got so far until their efforts turn upon themselves. None of them got to the point where they could truly transmit things in a whole state, without wiseacring. Which is why he wrote those books, for the future, so his system would not be completely loss through obvious trend that was happening. Which is why he closed his schools after his accident and wrote those books.

[CT2507]

a successor, not successors! to leave a successor means to leave one person in charge who could fill the masters shoes! an enlightened person as himself.

to leave successors - plural, makes no sense. shows u don't know what u are saying.

of course there were students who continued some work. but that's beside the point.

[JLeo777]

CT2507,

I am not sure how that represents me not knowing what I am talking about? Do you understand that Gurdjieff had different individuals running schools in different locals? One in Mexico, the other in England, so on and so forth, at one point?

Perhaps, rather than focusing on a word, perhaps it would be better to focus on the content.

[CT2507]

a school or schools without a direct connection to a real master is just a study group, and that's what the Gurdjeff organisations are today. study groups.

the reason im a bit pissed about this subject is, because Gurdjieff followers all over think there is a master, like Gurdjieff was, at the 7'th lvl of being/consciousness, somewhere in the US running the show.  but that is pure bull, and the reason for me knowing this is very simple.

(cont)

[CT2507]

the stop exercise! when Gurdjieff taught the stop exercise to his students, he very explicitly said that it was not to be performed without the guidance and supervision of a master who can FEEL others!!! as in empathy. feel if they are about to bust a muscle or a blood vessel!!

(cont)

[CT2507]

now, all around the world in all Gurdjieff groups, they practice the stop exercise without such a master present! which shows that the guy running the show at the top of the organisation forgot to inform people not to do the stop exercise. or he doesn't know, cause he didn't read Gurdjieffs books to carefully.

[JLeo777]

It's not besides the point, if you understood his aim. Granted that I should not have said successors, although I don't see how one can't have multiple individuals who take up his position -- not as if this has not happened before in history, really what I should not have done was even acknowledge the possibility of succession, in the manner that you are referring. No one could fill the shoes of the one who brings a teaching, you should be aware of this if you have read Gurdjieff. Peace.

[CT2507]

im not sure i understand his aim, and i read most written material of and about Gurdjieff there is. do u understand his aim? he never clearly specified an aim... not even to his oldest students.

[JLeo777]

Eh... he talks about his am in some of his books... You should read life is only real, then when I am and The Harold of coming good.

And as for what you said about his oldest students, that is disinformation and probably false memory. Many did not understand him and his tactics -- didn't know what Gurdjieff they would get. However, he wrote about what he wanted to do, why he did what he did, among other things that reflect his striving.

[hara3435]

@Belle19700 if u didnt feel yr feet touching the ground....yr living in yr head( intellect) the work isnt like a drug, with instant results....you may try 2 be in each foot as it treads the ground- this could help to balance yr 'living in yr head'. you only have yr own experience to go by-this is the work. You R the work, its a long & difficult path, if your desire to find The Way is true you will find a teacher to point you.

[akhenaten07]

magic music