We are human because we accepted the unthinkable to give us a David Copperfield type of illuton that we are a god above animals,. Ecclesiastes; 3-;18-20, KJV We breath, eat, drink, poop, urinate, eukaryote cells, have sex, physiologically, biologically, scientifically, chemically, microscopically, instinctually, fight or flight, territorial instincts of an animal putting up fences no trespassing signs. Humans are beasts too. Sodomistic oppression should not be given to the zoosexual or anyone.
I guess that's a point, but let's look at it like this:
I would say we have the POTENTIAL to torture our own species.
Take for example a brain-dead hospital patient, or a toddler/new-born. They don't torture their own species because they just can't. Does that make them not human? However, as humans, we do have the potential to torture our own.
Just as we have the potential to understand the depth of our love and the depth of the consequences of our actions.
You are but I don't really think it is necessary to make these qualifiers in this kind of conversation. Were we talking about any other species or clade I don't think we would feel it necessary to keep pointing these things out; we say elephants have a trunk but we don't bother adding that an elephant who has undergone trunk amuptation surgery is still an elephant.
Of course in other contexts these issues are relevant (ethical discussions primarily)
@noelplum99 I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant. I honestly don't mean too, but with the 500 character limit youtube gives, I can only express so much :S
This is a topic that really interests me, but I feel limited via comments.
Please let me know what you think in regards to my earlier comment!
What truly makes us humans is memes. Our ability to learn behavior from others. Our ability to pass on knowledge to others. Our ability for every generation to gain more knowledge than the previous one.
That is what defines us as a species. That is what has driven our evolution in recent time. That is what gives us our personality and intelligence.
And yes - a result of the memes we can have can be cruelty to our fellow human beings.
Torture is a byproduct of waring. Does our waring make us unique? Chimps will battle, but it does not last that long of time. Thumbs make use unique too, how about you give me one up right now? :)
How do you tell the difference between torture in animals and inefficient attempts at killing each other. Chimps have been seen to kill other chimps by such slow and ineficient methods as bitting and or hitting,dropping or stamping. But Chimps are clever perhaps they are being deliberately slow and inefficient at killing and just want their enemy to suffer a long time.
sweat glands, positioning of the foregnum magnum (what connects our spine to skull), and bone mass to support a cardio build... we are the only and best long-distance runners. other animals may run faster but after that burst they gotta rest and pant, whereas for us we can keep a good running pace, sweat glands expell heat... cardio also made us out-compete those neaderthals! depending which theory you follow :P
@noelplum99 well to cite the english anti-communist propaganda novella, Animal Farm, Wings are a appendage for propulsion so there for they are a leg. while arms are a appendage for manipulation.
Um... how about the most destructive species on the planet? Sad but seems to hold true. No other animal does destruction like us humans do. Not a very nice thing to label humans as. But you don't see other species chopping down land, or blowing up vast amounts of earth, polluting or even wiping out species.
Torture is a pretty human invention, but in a pack of wolves there is an Alpha and an omega. There was a study of wolves in Yellowstone which demonstrated that omega member of the pack would be constantly picked on by most of the pack. last to eat; that sort of thing. Maybe not quite the same thing, but it seemed like a pretty rough for the wolf.
I have seen two Indian Myna birds peck both eyes out of a third Indian Myna bird, then peck at it and harass it before eventually leaving it to die. That counts as torture in my opinion.
Actually I heard Humans are the most suited land based animals for long distance running. Humans can do marathons like no other land based animal. So there is one physical thing
A pertinent question here is why and whether we feel it necessary to have a uniquely human trait.
Anyway, much of science -and philosophy too- has to do with categorization. But there is an element of arbitrarity to the categories, such that we could categorize one way and give ourselves lots of uniquely human traits, then recategorize and be left with none. So, is the question of a uniquly human trait one of external reality itself, or one asked of our conceptual categories?
Would not the two "teenage" ducks tossing the younger duck around constitute the same behavior as turture, though to a lesser degree of severity? And how about makes in many species fighting, to the point of death or near death for dominance. After all, our own human torture is, is it not, also an attempt at dominance, control, i.e, Alpha status.
But what about the old staple, contemplating our own comtemplation? Animals may contemplate the external world, but the internal?
Baboons play physiological mind games on other members of the troop, kill and wound each other, and deprive food from members. All in the name of rank and dominance.
They are experts in mentally mind fucking each other.
The lowest ranking members have high levels of cortisol in the blood, just like humans and other primates in the same helpless situation.
Male Dolphins gang up on unpopular members and murder them.
I've seen bulling behavior in animals ,obviously torture requires a higher intellect .
actually torture is a silly example as it is a higher level skill , I could say driving a car or making an omelet ,there you go no other animal can do that .
I had two dogs that (seemingly) gleefully tortured a stray stray pup that wondered into the yard. Later, I found out that this a a common occurrence with canines. I split the dogs up and gave them away.
We are probably one of the few mammals that never get to see their parents reproduce (i can't help but feel somewhat glad of being the exception hehe) so maybe that is a factor to take into account here!
But is it true. Would a teenager sheltered from all forms of display of sex or sex education since his birth not be able to have sex with another teenager in the same situation when they both were aroused by each other? Isn't that an assumption, or has there been proof they couldn't do it?
@Censeo "Would a teenager sheltered from all forms of display of sex or sex education since his birth not be able to have sex with another teenager in the same situation"
interestingly, this is pretty much the plot of Daphnis and Chloe, an ancient novel by Longus. They lie together, but are uncertain of what to do...
What possible evolutionary advantage could torture give animals? Unless you add a complex mind into the mix, I can't think of a reason why such behaviour would be selected for.
Aggressive domination. torturing another animal the aggressor wants to vacate an area when the victim is incapable of doing so. I've observed this behavior on a few occasions when dealing with feral cats.
I don't know if you would rightfully classify this as torture but we used to have hens when I was a kid and every now and then the group would choose one hen to brutalize by continuously pecking it's back clean of feathers and eating it's eggs.
There's a David Attenborough-narrated episode of BBC's Planet Earth that depicts a group of chimpanzee's chasing down a neighboring group who ventured too far into their territory who are subsequently violently beaten, with one of them killed and actually cannibalized. In another particularly disturbing episode some people probably already know about shows a group of chimps strategising and capturing a monkey which is then torn apart and eaten still alive and screaming. Very disturbing.
As far as I know humans are the only creatures that can develop the capacity to do things like play video games and reason through a problem with a virtual entity. So the ability to sort of understand a new world where the rules are different and try to work within those defined rules.
Maybe I'm wrong and there are some monkeys or elephants who can play a mean game of pong and enjoy doing so... But then again I'm not a scientist studying the effects of video games on animals.
Cats. Cats torture other cats. I had a cat, she was declawed. THe other cats would chase her and if they caught her they would bite and scratch at her. We had her live in my bedroom and the door was always shut. When I entered or left the room I had to take a broom because the other cats would wait outside the door to go in and attack her. I have never seen anything like it before or since but they TORTURED her near to death and we don't know why.
is the question whether other animals torture, their own species, in general or is there a specific form of or motivation for the torture ie for pleasure or gain? not that i know of any animals which do, i am just wondering about de Waal's point since i have not read his book.
Several apes torture their own kind, which makes it very odd that Frans de Waal, a primatologist wouldn't know this. Maybe he's defining 'torture' in a different way that I am, but if tearing a fellow member of your own species apart limb from limb isn't torture, I don't know what is.
De Waal mentions such behaviour but he doesn't regard it as torture and I am not sure I do (though if you ask me to define torture i will get all vague I warn you).
Clearly this is very violent murderous behaviour but if we observed humans killing another human in this manner I don't think many people would label it as torture - for a start, the purpose is murderous as opposed to torture where pain is the aim and death is to be avoided.
Ah, I see. Well, I suppose it is a matter of defining 'torture.' I agree it's hard to pin down, but I don't think the aim of torture is necessarily pain; it might be death by way of pain, it might be information by way of pain. And while I am hesitant to contradict such a noted expert as De Waal, but I do think that the pain has something to do with way these apes are being killed. They could kill them in easier, quicker more effective ways, but they don't. It's in part about intimidation.
And moreover, torture is relatively rare. We're also the only species that composes symphonies, and while most human beings can't do that, most human beings don't engage in torture, either. There are tons of fairly specific behaviors that only humans do (drive cars, launch objects into space, generate pornography, etc.), but none of those things are really significant reflections of 'human nature' in some profound sense. Why does torture get such elevation from De Waal?
I can't be sure it holds with De Waal but I do notice that sometimes people take a position of "if only we could be as noble as other animals". I wonder if there's some of that going on in that book.
Personally, I figure the roleplaying games have it mostly right. What makes humans unique is behavioural versatility.
There are other very versatile species but humans take it to an extreme.
Intriguing suggestion, but I have to wonder if there is a way to scientifically measure 'versatility.' Maybe if we specify the context it might be possible, but in so doing we'd need a reason to prefer one context over another. Other species will no doubt have more versatility than us in some contexts. (Hell, some frogs can change their SEX in the middle of their life cycle--talk about versatility!)
I can't remember which hominid ancestor it was exactly but we are descended from a scavenger species able to make a meal out of almost anything. Other modern scavenger species also show diverse feeding behaviour necessary for dietary generalists but for humans it seems to have gone way beyond feeding behaviour into all sorts of other behaviour. I've heard it suggested that our problem solving ability stems from the need to exploit new food sources.
I had always been aware that predators are invariably smarter than their prey but it had escaped me for quite a long time that scavengers are, out of necessity, more "worldly" than even predators. Predators need to out wit their usual prey. Scavengers need to out wit their whole environment.
He doesn't seem to suggest that animals are especially noble, he just seemed to be really tired with decades of animals displaying the same traits as humans (such as empathy) but this always being dismissed and even regarded as taboo to credit even our closest cousins with the possibility of possessing consciousness or emotions. I think this was his way of saying 'you want an observed difference? how about this!'
It kind of reminds me of when my English teacher at school went off on one about war being uniquely and barbarically human. I asked her if she was aware that chimp troops form small groups to go out and attack other chimps. Also, chimps get together to lead an enemy in their own troop out for a hunt and the sucker's toast before he realises what's going on. He gets dragged around the forest floor and beaten to death. I think they're called murder squads.
It was certainly an entertaining comment though muder and torture at not really the same thing - in fact death is often the very thing a torturer hopes to avoid inflicting ofc
Yeah, I guess so. I remember seeing it in a David Attenborough show illustrating how barbarism isn't unique to humans. I thought my example was good but you don't like it. You're going to have to give me a clearer definition of torture before I can continue with this line of reasoning. I'm pretty sure there are examples out there. It would be amazing if there were not.
I agree with you, I feel like it is too outrageous to imagine their not being any examples out there.
I can't define torture for you, I am at work for one thing.
One test i have applied whilst reviewing the comments on this thread has simply been to imagine humans performing the same behaviour each time and whether we would regard it as torture. It seems that the greyest area comes between bullying and torture but it may be that torture is really too amorphous a concept, in fact.
If I search this thread for "define" I get 21 hits (at time of writing). We have to start with some definitions before going on with this.
But I've already thought of a spanner in the works for you. When ancient carthaginian explorers first encountered gorillas they flayed their skins despite being fully convinced that these were just savage humans. If the ability to recognise ones own species is not effective then what real meaning does "torturing one's own kind" have?
I'm not really sure what you are getting at there tbh. Is this a point along the lines that we basically dehumanise everyone we torture and this is how we manage to bring ourselves to do it? If this isn't t he point then I don't understand what it is - though I AM interested to know :)
No, no. I was trying to draw attention to the fact that the ability to recognise your own species isn't 100% instinct. The carthaginian story illustrates an example of a false positive (i.e. non-humans taken as human). A false negative might be the speculation by slave-owning europeans that black people were not in fact human.
You were saying that "torturing your own kind" is uniquely human but human's don't seem to have a clear notion of "own kind" even if you could adequately define torture.
Hi NP99: Yes, I think that's the point smhussain62 was talking about. IMO, dehumanizing our "enemies," whomever they may be at the time, is the only way we can enact such horrors upon other people. To identify with them when killing or torturing them would, understandably, be a maddening (literally stripping us of our empathy and conscience) experience. In group, out group, etc, etc.
RD - My thoughts weren't as clear as that (was way past my bedtime :-P ) but that's a brilliant point. I was just highlighting the plasticity of "own kind" and now you've built on that to suggest that that plasticity is what enables torture. I hadn't quite got there yet but now that you say it, it does seem quite obvious to me. Thanks.
1) Humans can sometimes mistakenly believe that non-humans are humans.
2) Humans can sometime mistakenly believe that humans are non-humans.
(1) can lead to things like concern for animal welfare.
(2) can lead to things like cruelty to humans.
If this is correct then what we need is an animal with an equally plastic sense of "own kind". It's probably going to be a pretty smart species in order to be able to do that. Probably one capable of concern for other species.
The fact that humans are known to torture one another does not mean each human does so. It is not ubiquitous amongst humans, so I don't believe that would be humanity's unique trait.
I really feel like throwing that right back at you. In scientific terms, your assertion that all forms of communication are one homogenous characteristic with no room for subdivision is one that I have only ever heard once - from you.
You are asserting a scientific definition of 'characteristic' that differs significantly from the dictionary definitions the rest of us are using. State your definition along with a source or let it go.... (just a clue, the source is the bit I am after)
As opposed to what? A pig audience or a willow tree audience?
I know you don't think there is anything special about humans so presumably there IS no good reason from your perspective why a dictionary should focus on a human audience!
Anyway, this is it for me, no cited alternate definition = end of conversation, i have books to read.
3) Whether we have evolved; created by Yahweh as is or fashioned from the corpse of Tiamat by Marduk makes bugger all difference: we are not discussing how characteristics arose we are discussing what they are and you still need a definition of 'characteristic'.
This is one of the most meaningless and frustrating conversation I have had in a long long time. How is it possible to use a word if we have no definition of it other that 'it is defined by evolution'?
If a child asked you what a planet was would you say 'it is defined by cosmological evolution' or would you cut the crap and tell them what a planet is?
.... I think what you should do is just stop talking. Not just here. Stop talking or writing or typing or conversing in any way shape or form because without definitions for words, which you seem to think is anathema, there are no grounds on which to exchange ideas.
In fact why don't we rewrite the dictionary? Let us remove every single definition for every single word and write, in its place, 'defined by language'!!!!
....so kinkspace, reply to this by all means but I am truly done with this now - feel free to have the last word - I am not going to try and have this conversation because i have spent 38 years conversing with people on the basis of defined terms that both parties understand and now i feel like I am trying to converse with someone from another dimension.
@Kinkspace Who mentioned superior and self realization does not mean a successful life , it means we understand who we realy are in essence.That is the only difference between us an animals ,we should have the intelligence to at least TRY
eat, sleep, mate & defend might actually be the realization of the self for those species, they simply adopted a different course during their evolution. most species around today are successful in their own way.
I would presume that torturing another human is an extension of intimidation/dominance behavior we see in other species.
One physical characteristic we have that is superior to any other land mammal is our ability to run long distances. That comes in handy when hunting game in open country. Hunter-gatherers are known to wound an animal, then keep chasing it until it collapses from blood loss and heat exhaustion.
I was just looking at data for the Finnmarksløpet which is a 1000km sled race. It seems that sometimes the race is won in under 5 days which means the huskies are averaging 200km a day or more for almost 5 days. Can humans run considerably further than that?
@papafox i`m not sure i agree with the notion of humans being good runners.
far from it in fact.
Most canines, felines and ungulates can rather easily outrun a human being with little effort and do so for far longer periods then any human is capable of sustaining.
In fact i can`t think of a single large mammal we can outrun on foot. let alone keep up the pase against for much longer then a minute or two.
one might even say plantigrade locomotion is rather ineffective.
1) Actually I was thinking primarily of the African grasslands where we evolved. In that environment, with our vertical vs horizontal stature (less solar heating) our lack of hair and our more efficient cooling system (perspiration) we definitely have an advantage _over_long_distances_, though not in a short sprint. A number of studies of hunter-gatherers like the Kalahari bushmen have shown this to be the case.
2) The animal sprints for a time, then has to stop to cool down, while the humans catch up. Eventually the animal (especially if wounded already) stops from exhaustion and overheating.
Google "Persistence Hunting" for more on the topic.
HOWEVER, I think you're right when it comes to more temperate environments, especially in the cooler seasons. In that case, I would think that the advantage would probably be nullified by the cooler climate.
@papafox you bring up some interesting points but i still think plantigrade locomotion sucks. as i recall plantigrade locomotion in us is a product of our tree dwelling ancestry. excellent for climbing but a pretty inefficient method of traveling on the ground, much clumsier and more demanding physically then the leg structures of the aforementioned animals.
I took a graduate course in the neurobiology of violence and there were a couple of examples that might be relevant. Male gerbils in a cage will will kill each-other slowly, the dominant one will keep making threat displays whenever the subordinate starts to relax, the subordinate will die of heat stress and exhaustion. Certain but not all rats will attack helpless pinned opponents repeatedly, and sometime kill them. It is unclear of the rat understands that the other is helpless.
I have not heard of anyother species torturing it's own kind but I couldn't say for certain they don't, I once had someone tell me that creativity was our unique trait, that was quickly solved by showing a video of a elephant painting...
We can torture because we have the ability to classify other people as different from ourselves and those around us. Before someone is tortured, the group they belong to is deemed subhuman in some way, often due to race or gender. So while we are torturing our fellow man in the literal sense, we aren't in a symbolic sense. In the end it all comes down to the power of our brain and its ability to create powerful enough symbol systems to reclassify everything in the world.
I also want to say that if you want to go for uniquely human, I support that it wasn't a single unique feature that makes us awesome. It is the unique combination of those abilities in a single package. Humans have both the capacity to learn and to teach. Humans have wonderfully useful hands. Humans have the capacity to abstract. Humans have the capacity to vocalize. Individual species will do one or two of these, but only humans have all of them. Humans are an emergent phenom/black swan
I would just like to say that "Torturing" is a behavior that is very difficult to observe. Firstly, animals can "murder", often in very gruesome and painful ways, why would that not be considered "torture"? Also, a lot of the definition of "torture" is psychological - inducing the fear of imminent harm or death even when harm is not imminent. Luck is a big factor in observing a behavior tied to an emotion in animals. I posit that maybe animals do torture, and the scientists haven't observed.
I suppose a clue to a defining characteristic would be the fact that we are using computers to post comments on videos, all technology invented by humans. :P
Depends what you mean by torture I guess. I think I'd define it as a act that inflects pain on another for a reason or purpose.
So I think that does happen. It happens with my cats they fight from time to time not because they don't like each other but because it's a way of preparing them for the real thing.
Now this is nothing to the extent of what a human can do but I think thats probably down to because able to think of more effective means of torture.
Interesting... first of all Frans de Waal reminded me of Van der Waal forces(okay that was the usesless part of my comment). Im not 100% sure of this but one thing that has been talked about in my intro-psych class is the inability of almost all animals to have any real conscious cognitive activity. Now humans may be controlled entirely by unconscious brain processes as well ( of course this opens up debate for other discussions about free will etc.) but cognition may be unique to humans.
I reject torture as distinctly human. baboons and bottle nosed dolphins torture their own kind, for malice, not for death, but to cause suffering.
My vote is for most complex communicators, in which the cuttlefish is probably second. The complexity of our bonding rituals alone, far surpasses everything else alive. (And I meant bonding NOT mating.)
Adaptability? Nope; bacterium.
Cognitive skills per brain mass? Parrots and ravens.
Tool use and cognitive prescience are aspects of, and fully integrated with the complexity of our communications.
What is the single greatest cause of suicidal depression? Isolation. Without frequent feedback, (even schizophrenic hallucinations) and/or a revenge rational, no human suffering from isolation can maintain a desire to exist.
I leave you with one a word illustration; "WILSON!"
Some great apes can learn a limited amount of sign language, but there communications are limited to telegraphic communications (ie they are capable of linking a verb and a noun), but they lack true language. Our capacity for language is truly unique and very remarkable. Also, human language is the only form of communication capable of meta-language, and the only form of animal communication capable of creativity (creating novel utterances for novel situations).
"And it's precisely that sort of arrogance [. . .]"
It's not arrogance. It's recognizing that we can do some damage if we actually put our minds to it.
I mean, if we just upset the orbit of the Earth around the sun enough, it could end up plummeting into the sun, and will be destroyed. That's not arrogance.
I saw a special once called "The Darker Side of Chimps" I think. It showed them going out in groups, finding another lone chimp and brutalizing it almost to death for no apparent reason.
I think if your cats were human we would usually call that bullying, though I accept there is a fine line, eventually, where bullying ends and torture begins.
chickens will sometimes peck on a chicken in their group, because it has different feather colour. siamese fighting fish adult males will fight to death as soon as they meet. there are dog breeds that do the same. male lion will happily kill cubs of another male, etc. my grandma had several white sheep and one day she bought a white one with black face and the other sheep avoided her and kicked her if she came too close. it`s not really uncommon.
I once put a second fish into my fish tank and the other fish that was already there pursued it relentlessly for several weeks, till it was almost exhausted to death.
As for your question, it depends entirely on your definition of torture.
I would, however, say that imagination (ability to reason abstractly, a theory of mind, the ability to conceive of the unreal, etc.) is a far more dominant and significant uniquely human trait than torture, which is an uncommon behavior within the human species.
i would say we rely on our intelligence more then any other animals because we are physically weaker, have poorer vision, hearing and sense of smell. and without our combined intelligence our species would be nothing.
If a chicken gets an injury in a group of chickens, the others will peck at the wound... I would equate that to torture... I mean... they aren't gonna get much information out of it, but it's still malicious and painful for the sufferer.
To mazdaplz - The group of birds which fall under the corvid family are pretty clever at working out how a simeple, mechanical machine will work just by looking at it.
I think humans don't tend to interact with other species in the same way as other animals do. We are much more 'cut off' from them and tend to do our own thing. Maybe that contributes to us only toturing our own.
This made me think of a macaw my father used to see at the local Koi gardens. My dad took the bird a butterscotch one day and asked if he could give it to the bird. The macaw took the sweet in its foot and examined it closely before using its beak to reposition it in its foot allowing it to nip the edge of the foil wrapper which it then gradually unfurled off the sweet in one piece.
He said the bird clearly had worked out its strategy to unwrap the sweet and then employed it.
There was a fascinating article in the New Scientist about 3 months ago which talked about the corvid group and how they are the most superior, in terms of mechanical thinking - beating the chimps! Basically they set up pulley systems to raise platforms etc so that they could get food. They would change it between experiments so that the platform might raise or descend. Corvids could stand and examine the test before pulling the correct rope almost every time.
Every time I see a crow in the road it is apparent how much more intelligent they are than other birds (psittacids are bright I know but I tend not to see them in Lincolnshire!), there is just zero chance of running them over, they calmly observe and judge the traffic and fly to the verge and back again after you pass.
Sorry but if you would define torture as being violent to another being until you get what you wanted to achive, then there are lots of examples (wherever they fight one another). So when it comes to cruelty among your own kind, I ithink there are many species that don't stand behind humans. I do believe we have other unique (positive characteristics) that separate us from most animals.
Well, that is fine as far as it goes but if you wish to take such a broad definition of torture then you have to define all human fights as torture. When two men brawl in a pub car park, over a woman or a spilled drink, that is torture according to your definition.
i think it's not surprising we dehumanize people that we consider dangerous to us, because we know how dangerous humans can be.
in the case of humans that enjoy torturing people they consider or know that are innocent then i think that is a mental disorder and it's not the norm but rather the exception. perhaps a mutation on the brain triggers the same latent abnormality traced back to a single first individual, might be the most logical explanation
I can't say that I can think of anything that would be the equivalent of torturing your own species in any other animal. With other animals, they will beat the hell out of you until you leave or die...I don't know if that counts...It's still not tying them up and continuing after they desire to run away.
But I would add to that idea of torture that we are also the only species that proactively imprisons people. All others either kill or excommunicate the unwanted.
I don't know, grammar? Knowledge of our own mortality? Formal logic and mathematics? Those seem pretty unique.
But torture? Chimpanzees are well known for their rather excessive inter-species violence. But I suppose it depends what you mean by 'torture' - if there's an intellectual component (the knowledge of pain and how to prolong it) then it's not surprising we are unique in that respect.
We are human because we accepted the unthinkable to give us a David Copperfield type of illuton that we are a god above animals,. Ecclesiastes; 3-;18-20, KJV We breath, eat, drink, poop, urinate, eukaryote cells, have sex, physiologically, biologically, scientifically, chemically, microscopically, instinctually, fight or flight, territorial instincts of an animal putting up fences no trespassing signs. Humans are beasts too. Sodomistic oppression should not be given to the zoosexual or anyone.
kobidobidog 2 months ago
In regards to the defining physical characteristics (the hands and the brain):
Studying the statement further suggests that one way that you can identify a species as human is through the subject's hands.
What if the subject is a man (or woman) with an amputated arm/hand? Are they no longer considered human?
In the example of the brain, what if we consider a person who's suffered a terrible injury and is considered brain-dead? Are they human?
TechTubeMedia 3 months ago
I guess that's a point, but let's look at it like this:
I would say we have the POTENTIAL to torture our own species.
Take for example a brain-dead hospital patient, or a toddler/new-born. They don't torture their own species because they just can't. Does that make them not human? However, as humans, we do have the potential to torture our own.
Just as we have the potential to understand the depth of our love and the depth of the consequences of our actions.
Am I making sense?
TechTubeMedia 3 months ago
@TechTubeMedia
"Am I making sense?"
You are but I don't really think it is necessary to make these qualifiers in this kind of conversation. Were we talking about any other species or clade I don't think we would feel it necessary to keep pointing these things out; we say elephants have a trunk but we don't bother adding that an elephant who has undergone trunk amuptation surgery is still an elephant.
Of course in other contexts these issues are relevant (ethical discussions primarily)
noelplum99 3 months ago
@noelplum99 I see where you're coming from. I was answering the question of "What makes humans, well, human?"
In this case, there's a bunch more answers we can give, can't we?
Humans can put belief into something
Humans have the capacity to understand the depth of their relationships and the consequences of their actions
Humans can think of something, and then invent it
Humans can communicate intelligently
Humans can study other species (monkeys can't study us)
TechTubeMedia 3 months ago
@noelplum99 I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant. I honestly don't mean too, but with the 500 character limit youtube gives, I can only express so much :S
This is a topic that really interests me, but I feel limited via comments.
Please let me know what you think in regards to my earlier comment!
Thanks :).
TechTubeMedia 3 months ago
One thing makes humans unique. We have sex for pleasure.
Not just at oestrus, nor simply to ease social structures, like the bonobo; but at anytime, just because we like it....
It's proven to be a very succesful evolutionary innovation. Our species, like Sherwin-Williams, covers the globe...
ThePeaceableKingdom 6 months ago
I always thought that being able to mate while standing was what defined us... I stand corrected.
hanyuo 6 months ago
The definition is off the mark i think...
What truly makes us humans is memes. Our ability to learn behavior from others. Our ability to pass on knowledge to others. Our ability for every generation to gain more knowledge than the previous one.
That is what defines us as a species. That is what has driven our evolution in recent time. That is what gives us our personality and intelligence.
And yes - a result of the memes we can have can be cruelty to our fellow human beings.
itsjustameme 10 months ago
Socrates once discussed what the definition of a man was.
At some point in the debate Socrates gave a definition of a man as "a featherless biped"
The philosopher Diogenes then plucked a chicken and said, "Look, I have created a man for you"
Plato then changed his definition to include "with broad flat nails"
itsjustameme 10 months ago
itsjustameme, you've gotta love Cynicism.
emitremmus 9 months ago
Human rights, animal rights, gender rights, peace enforcement... only humans
Darkonomist 11 months ago
Beer makes us unique.
musability 1 year ago
Torture is a byproduct of waring. Does our waring make us unique? Chimps will battle, but it does not last that long of time. Thumbs make use unique too, how about you give me one up right now? :)
musability 1 year ago
How do you tell the difference between torture in animals and inefficient attempts at killing each other. Chimps have been seen to kill other chimps by such slow and ineficient methods as bitting and or hitting,dropping or stamping. But Chimps are clever perhaps they are being deliberately slow and inefficient at killing and just want their enemy to suffer a long time.
commonberus1 1 year ago
In my opinion, you need to define the word "torture" for all of us before we can provide you with meaningful feedback.
masporter 1 year ago
"Intellectual property"
otur1 1 year ago
Humans are the only species, that thinks their godlike.
MikDonsen 1 year ago 2
sweat glands, positioning of the foregnum magnum (what connects our spine to skull), and bone mass to support a cardio build... we are the only and best long-distance runners. other animals may run faster but after that burst they gotta rest and pant, whereas for us we can keep a good running pace, sweat glands expell heat... cardio also made us out-compete those neaderthals! depending which theory you follow :P
PumpedLikeGorrilaz 1 year ago
Exceptional, definitive physical characteristics? What about bipedalism?
emitremmus 1 year ago
@emitremmus
Birds
noelplum99 1 year ago
noelplum99, there are flightless birds. Point taken :)
emitremmus 1 year ago
@noelplum99 well to cite the english anti-communist propaganda novella, Animal Farm, Wings are a appendage for propulsion so there for they are a leg. while arms are a appendage for manipulation.
Just a thought
hrahn1995 1 year ago
@emitremmus - Kangaroos
Venaloid 1 year ago
Um... how about the most destructive species on the planet? Sad but seems to hold true. No other animal does destruction like us humans do. Not a very nice thing to label humans as. But you don't see other species chopping down land, or blowing up vast amounts of earth, polluting or even wiping out species.
LoveDoujinshi 1 year ago
Torture is a pretty human invention, but in a pack of wolves there is an Alpha and an omega. There was a study of wolves in Yellowstone which demonstrated that omega member of the pack would be constantly picked on by most of the pack. last to eat; that sort of thing. Maybe not quite the same thing, but it seemed like a pretty rough for the wolf.
indyfab916 1 year ago
I have seen two Indian Myna birds peck both eyes out of a third Indian Myna bird, then peck at it and harass it before eventually leaving it to die. That counts as torture in my opinion.
XenogeneGray 1 year ago
@XenogeneGray
At least they were all Indian myna birds so there can be no suspicion of racism as a motive!!!
noelplum99 1 year ago
Actually I heard Humans are the most suited land based animals for long distance running. Humans can do marathons like no other land based animal. So there is one physical thing
devotedpupa 1 year ago
A pertinent question here is why and whether we feel it necessary to have a uniquely human trait.
Anyway, much of science -and philosophy too- has to do with categorization. But there is an element of arbitrarity to the categories, such that we could categorize one way and give ourselves lots of uniquely human traits, then recategorize and be left with none. So, is the question of a uniquly human trait one of external reality itself, or one asked of our conceptual categories?
brindlebriar 2 years ago
Would not the two "teenage" ducks tossing the younger duck around constitute the same behavior as turture, though to a lesser degree of severity? And how about makes in many species fighting, to the point of death or near death for dominance. After all, our own human torture is, is it not, also an attempt at dominance, control, i.e, Alpha status.
But what about the old staple, contemplating our own comtemplation? Animals may contemplate the external world, but the internal?
brindlebriar 2 years ago
Baboons play physiological mind games on other members of the troop, kill and wound each other, and deprive food from members. All in the name of rank and dominance.
They are experts in mentally mind fucking each other.
The lowest ranking members have high levels of cortisol in the blood, just like humans and other primates in the same helpless situation.
Male Dolphins gang up on unpopular members and murder them.
bigboy45454545 2 years ago
I've seen bulling behavior in animals ,obviously torture requires a higher intellect .
actually torture is a silly example as it is a higher level skill , I could say driving a car or making an omelet ,there you go no other animal can do that .
sausage4mash 2 years ago
Random acts of kindness.
Sparks127 2 years ago
I had two dogs that (seemingly) gleefully tortured a stray stray pup that wondered into the yard. Later, I found out that this a a common occurrence with canines. I split the dogs up and gave them away.
Afod3 2 years ago
My friend says that birds can be even worse than us for torturing their same species.
CMO999 2 years ago
The abilty of speech and expressing our thoughts with words in writing too,is something that only humans do.
MegaHedonist 2 years ago
@redFISTofEUROPE I'd think that we'd be able to work it out anyways.
Censeo 2 years ago
@Censeo
We are probably one of the few mammals that never get to see their parents reproduce (i can't help but feel somewhat glad of being the exception hehe) so maybe that is a factor to take into account here!
noelplum99 2 years ago
But is it true. Would a teenager sheltered from all forms of display of sex or sex education since his birth not be able to have sex with another teenager in the same situation when they both were aroused by each other? Isn't that an assumption, or has there been proof they couldn't do it?
Censeo 2 years ago
@Censeo
I actually agree with you , I am sure they would do it instinctively, i just wanted to make my little point.
noelplum99 2 years ago
@Censeo "Would a teenager sheltered from all forms of display of sex or sex education since his birth not be able to have sex with another teenager in the same situation"
interestingly, this is pretty much the plot of Daphnis and Chloe, an ancient novel by Longus. They lie together, but are uncertain of what to do...
Of course, it's just fiction...
ThePeaceableKingdom 6 months ago
What possible evolutionary advantage could torture give animals? Unless you add a complex mind into the mix, I can't think of a reason why such behaviour would be selected for.
Itslvle 2 years ago
Aggressive domination. torturing another animal the aggressor wants to vacate an area when the victim is incapable of doing so. I've observed this behavior on a few occasions when dealing with feral cats.
Specifically, feral cats.
TheTruePooka 2 years ago
As for the unique trait how about making fire?
preachingsin 2 years ago
I don't know if you would rightfully classify this as torture but we used to have hens when I was a kid and every now and then the group would choose one hen to brutalize by continuously pecking it's back clean of feathers and eating it's eggs.
preachingsin 2 years ago
The answer to this Q is .... We [humans] can ask this Question & Answer it .This is simply Unique ~How & why is probably up for debate maybe
ManyanaMovies 2 years ago
There's a David Attenborough-narrated episode of BBC's Planet Earth that depicts a group of chimpanzee's chasing down a neighboring group who ventured too far into their territory who are subsequently violently beaten, with one of them killed and actually cannibalized. In another particularly disturbing episode some people probably already know about shows a group of chimps strategising and capturing a monkey which is then torn apart and eaten still alive and screaming. Very disturbing.
OccamsView 2 years ago
To die for a good cause is just another meme? To be tortured for a cause kinda caught on. I wonder why.
objectiveagnostic 2 years ago
As far as I know humans are the only creatures that can develop the capacity to do things like play video games and reason through a problem with a virtual entity. So the ability to sort of understand a new world where the rules are different and try to work within those defined rules.
Maybe I'm wrong and there are some monkeys or elephants who can play a mean game of pong and enjoy doing so... But then again I'm not a scientist studying the effects of video games on animals.
makaisenki 2 years ago
Cats. Cats torture other cats. I had a cat, she was declawed. THe other cats would chase her and if they caught her they would bite and scratch at her. We had her live in my bedroom and the door was always shut. When I entered or left the room I had to take a broom because the other cats would wait outside the door to go in and attack her. I have never seen anything like it before or since but they TORTURED her near to death and we don't know why.
Marrithegreat 2 years ago
is the question whether other animals torture, their own species, in general or is there a specific form of or motivation for the torture ie for pleasure or gain? not that i know of any animals which do, i am just wondering about de Waal's point since i have not read his book.
BandwagonObscura 2 years ago
Several apes torture their own kind, which makes it very odd that Frans de Waal, a primatologist wouldn't know this. Maybe he's defining 'torture' in a different way that I am, but if tearing a fellow member of your own species apart limb from limb isn't torture, I don't know what is.
SisyphusRedeemed 2 years ago
@SisyphusRedeemed
De Waal mentions such behaviour but he doesn't regard it as torture and I am not sure I do (though if you ask me to define torture i will get all vague I warn you).
Clearly this is very violent murderous behaviour but if we observed humans killing another human in this manner I don't think many people would label it as torture - for a start, the purpose is murderous as opposed to torture where pain is the aim and death is to be avoided.
noelplum99 2 years ago
Ah, I see. Well, I suppose it is a matter of defining 'torture.' I agree it's hard to pin down, but I don't think the aim of torture is necessarily pain; it might be death by way of pain, it might be information by way of pain. And while I am hesitant to contradict such a noted expert as De Waal, but I do think that the pain has something to do with way these apes are being killed. They could kill them in easier, quicker more effective ways, but they don't. It's in part about intimidation.
SisyphusRedeemed 2 years ago
And moreover, torture is relatively rare. We're also the only species that composes symphonies, and while most human beings can't do that, most human beings don't engage in torture, either. There are tons of fairly specific behaviors that only humans do (drive cars, launch objects into space, generate pornography, etc.), but none of those things are really significant reflections of 'human nature' in some profound sense. Why does torture get such elevation from De Waal?
SisyphusRedeemed 2 years ago
I can't be sure it holds with De Waal but I do notice that sometimes people take a position of "if only we could be as noble as other animals". I wonder if there's some of that going on in that book.
Personally, I figure the roleplaying games have it mostly right. What makes humans unique is behavioural versatility.
There are other very versatile species but humans take it to an extreme.
smhussain62 2 years ago
Intriguing suggestion, but I have to wonder if there is a way to scientifically measure 'versatility.' Maybe if we specify the context it might be possible, but in so doing we'd need a reason to prefer one context over another. Other species will no doubt have more versatility than us in some contexts. (Hell, some frogs can change their SEX in the middle of their life cycle--talk about versatility!)
SisyphusRedeemed 2 years ago
I can't remember which hominid ancestor it was exactly but we are descended from a scavenger species able to make a meal out of almost anything. Other modern scavenger species also show diverse feeding behaviour necessary for dietary generalists but for humans it seems to have gone way beyond feeding behaviour into all sorts of other behaviour. I've heard it suggested that our problem solving ability stems from the need to exploit new food sources.
smhussain62 2 years ago
I had always been aware that predators are invariably smarter than their prey but it had escaped me for quite a long time that scavengers are, out of necessity, more "worldly" than even predators. Predators need to out wit their usual prey. Scavengers need to out wit their whole environment.
smhussain62 2 years ago
@smhussain62
I don't think de Waal falls into that camp.
He doesn't seem to suggest that animals are especially noble, he just seemed to be really tired with decades of animals displaying the same traits as humans (such as empathy) but this always being dismissed and even regarded as taboo to credit even our closest cousins with the possibility of possessing consciousness or emotions. I think this was his way of saying 'you want an observed difference? how about this!'
noelplum99 2 years ago
@NP99
Ah. A man after my own heart. How 'bout this, indeed. :-D
Sounds like I should get a copy.
smhussain62 2 years ago
very good mr plum.
It kind of reminds me of when my English teacher at school went off on one about war being uniquely and barbarically human. I asked her if she was aware that chimp troops form small groups to go out and attack other chimps. Also, chimps get together to lead an enemy in their own troop out for a hunt and the sucker's toast before he realises what's going on. He gets dragged around the forest floor and beaten to death. I think they're called murder squads.
Does that help you?
smhussain62 2 years ago
@smhussain62
It was certainly an entertaining comment though muder and torture at not really the same thing - in fact death is often the very thing a torturer hopes to avoid inflicting ofc
noelplum99 2 years ago
Yeah, I guess so. I remember seeing it in a David Attenborough show illustrating how barbarism isn't unique to humans. I thought my example was good but you don't like it. You're going to have to give me a clearer definition of torture before I can continue with this line of reasoning. I'm pretty sure there are examples out there. It would be amazing if there were not.
How does your book define torture?
smhussain62 2 years ago
@smhussain62
I agree with you, I feel like it is too outrageous to imagine their not being any examples out there.
I can't define torture for you, I am at work for one thing.
One test i have applied whilst reviewing the comments on this thread has simply been to imagine humans performing the same behaviour each time and whether we would regard it as torture. It seems that the greyest area comes between bullying and torture but it may be that torture is really too amorphous a concept, in fact.
noelplum99 2 years ago
If I search this thread for "define" I get 21 hits (at time of writing). We have to start with some definitions before going on with this.
But I've already thought of a spanner in the works for you. When ancient carthaginian explorers first encountered gorillas they flayed their skins despite being fully convinced that these were just savage humans. If the ability to recognise ones own species is not effective then what real meaning does "torturing one's own kind" have?
smhussain62 2 years ago
@smhussain62
I'm not really sure what you are getting at there tbh. Is this a point along the lines that we basically dehumanise everyone we torture and this is how we manage to bring ourselves to do it? If this isn't t he point then I don't understand what it is - though I AM interested to know :)
noelplum99 2 years ago
No, no. I was trying to draw attention to the fact that the ability to recognise your own species isn't 100% instinct. The carthaginian story illustrates an example of a false positive (i.e. non-humans taken as human). A false negative might be the speculation by slave-owning europeans that black people were not in fact human.
You were saying that "torturing your own kind" is uniquely human but human's don't seem to have a clear notion of "own kind" even if you could adequately define torture.
smhussain62 2 years ago
@smhussain62
Does that matter? I mean noone is disputing that humans torture humans, the question is whether any other animals torture their own species.
noelplum99 2 years ago
Hi NP99: Yes, I think that's the point smhussain62 was talking about. IMO, dehumanizing our "enemies," whomever they may be at the time, is the only way we can enact such horrors upon other people. To identify with them when killing or torturing them would, understandably, be a maddening (literally stripping us of our empathy and conscience) experience. In group, out group, etc, etc.
RhunDraco 2 years ago
RD - My thoughts weren't as clear as that (was way past my bedtime :-P ) but that's a brilliant point. I was just highlighting the plasticity of "own kind" and now you've built on that to suggest that that plasticity is what enables torture. I hadn't quite got there yet but now that you say it, it does seem quite obvious to me. Thanks.
smhussain62 2 years ago
1) Humans can sometimes mistakenly believe that non-humans are humans.
2) Humans can sometime mistakenly believe that humans are non-humans.
(1) can lead to things like concern for animal welfare.
(2) can lead to things like cruelty to humans.
If this is correct then what we need is an animal with an equally plastic sense of "own kind". It's probably going to be a pretty smart species in order to be able to do that. Probably one capable of concern for other species.
How paradoxical.
smhussain62 2 years ago
The fact that humans are known to torture one another does not mean each human does so. It is not ubiquitous amongst humans, so I don't believe that would be humanity's unique trait.
qwelliman 2 years ago
Imagination seems to be humanities defining trait.
Grospoliner 2 years ago
humanity's rather.
Grospoliner 2 years ago
Google - chimps using tools....There are many good sources.
100chemosabe 2 years ago
This video is brilliant and funny and ...a little to true.
100chemosabe 2 years ago
What happened to mankind as the tool using animal? ;)
msh1044 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
@Kinkspace
He said 'tool using animal' so he really needed examples of primate tool use not ants milking aphids
noelplum99 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
@Kinkspace
I really feel like throwing that right back at you. In scientific terms, your assertion that all forms of communication are one homogenous characteristic with no room for subdivision is one that I have only ever heard once - from you.
noelplum99 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
@Kinkspace
Let's bring this back to basics.
You are asserting a scientific definition of 'characteristic' that differs significantly from the dictionary definitions the rest of us are using. State your definition along with a source or let it go.... (just a clue, the source is the bit I am after)
noelplum99 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
@Kinkspace
As opposed to what? A pig audience or a willow tree audience?
I know you don't think there is anything special about humans so presumably there IS no good reason from your perspective why a dictionary should focus on a human audience!
Anyway, this is it for me, no cited alternate definition = end of conversation, i have books to read.
noelplum99 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
@Kinkspace
1) that doesn't even mean anything
2) you havent cited anything other than yourself
3) Whether we have evolved; created by Yahweh as is or fashioned from the corpse of Tiamat by Marduk makes bugger all difference: we are not discussing how characteristics arose we are discussing what they are and you still need a definition of 'characteristic'.
noelplum99 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
@Kinkspace
This is one of the most meaningless and frustrating conversation I have had in a long long time. How is it possible to use a word if we have no definition of it other that 'it is defined by evolution'?
If a child asked you what a planet was would you say 'it is defined by cosmological evolution' or would you cut the crap and tell them what a planet is?
noelplum99 2 years ago
.... I think what you should do is just stop talking. Not just here. Stop talking or writing or typing or conversing in any way shape or form because without definitions for words, which you seem to think is anathema, there are no grounds on which to exchange ideas.
In fact why don't we rewrite the dictionary? Let us remove every single definition for every single word and write, in its place, 'defined by language'!!!!
...contd
noelplum99 2 years ago
....so kinkspace, reply to this by all means but I am truly done with this now - feel free to have the last word - I am not going to try and have this conversation because i have spent 38 years conversing with people on the basis of defined terms that both parties understand and now i feel like I am trying to converse with someone from another dimension.
noelplum99 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
The animals eat,sleep,mate,& defend~ Humans have the ability to try to realize the self.
ManyanaMovies 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
@Kinkspace Who mentioned superior and self realization does not mean a successful life , it means we understand who we realy are in essence.That is the only difference between us an animals ,we should have the intelligence to at least TRY
ManyanaMovies 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
''There's no scientific or philosophic difference between us & other species''
Our DNA is unique, so is our chin and so is that fact that we torture our own species. End of story.
TheProf1988 2 years ago
@Kinkspace You can speak for yourself and your level of intelligence
ManyanaMovies 2 years ago
eat, sleep, mate & defend might actually be the realization of the self for those species, they simply adopted a different course during their evolution. most species around today are successful in their own way.
msh1044 2 years ago
If I was asked to define my youth, besides my family, I would say that I was picked on most of the time.
216trixie 2 years ago
No is not, torture has the explicit intention of causing pain
fromeroj 2 years ago
I would presume that torturing another human is an extension of intimidation/dominance behavior we see in other species.
One physical characteristic we have that is superior to any other land mammal is our ability to run long distances. That comes in handy when hunting game in open country. Hunter-gatherers are known to wound an animal, then keep chasing it until it collapses from blood loss and heat exhaustion.
papafox 2 years ago
@papafox
I was just looking at data for the Finnmarksløpet which is a 1000km sled race. It seems that sometimes the race is won in under 5 days which means the huskies are averaging 200km a day or more for almost 5 days. Can humans run considerably further than that?
noelplum99 2 years ago
Try the same thing in the African grasslands and the humans would kick their asses.
Google "Persistence Hunting"
papafox 2 years ago
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Kinkspace 2 years ago
@papafox i`m not sure i agree with the notion of humans being good runners.
far from it in fact.
Most canines, felines and ungulates can rather easily outrun a human being with little effort and do so for far longer periods then any human is capable of sustaining.
In fact i can`t think of a single large mammal we can outrun on foot. let alone keep up the pase against for much longer then a minute or two.
one might even say plantigrade locomotion is rather ineffective.
AcanLord 2 years ago
How about the sloth?
CzarAdam2009 2 years ago
@ AcanLord & noelplum99
1) Actually I was thinking primarily of the African grasslands where we evolved. In that environment, with our vertical vs horizontal stature (less solar heating) our lack of hair and our more efficient cooling system (perspiration) we definitely have an advantage _over_long_distances_, though not in a short sprint. A number of studies of hunter-gatherers like the Kalahari bushmen have shown this to be the case.
papafox 2 years ago
2) The animal sprints for a time, then has to stop to cool down, while the humans catch up. Eventually the animal (especially if wounded already) stops from exhaustion and overheating.
Google "Persistence Hunting" for more on the topic.
HOWEVER, I think you're right when it comes to more temperate environments, especially in the cooler seasons. In that case, I would think that the advantage would probably be nullified by the cooler climate.
papafox 2 years ago
@papafox you bring up some interesting points but i still think plantigrade locomotion sucks. as i recall plantigrade locomotion in us is a product of our tree dwelling ancestry. excellent for climbing but a pretty inefficient method of traveling on the ground, much clumsier and more demanding physically then the leg structures of the aforementioned animals.
AcanLord 2 years ago
@papafox
I have seen a film on these african hunters using this strategy - really amazing to see the sustained running in the high temperatures and dry heat.
noelplum99 2 years ago
I took a graduate course in the neurobiology of violence and there were a couple of examples that might be relevant. Male gerbils in a cage will will kill each-other slowly, the dominant one will keep making threat displays whenever the subordinate starts to relax, the subordinate will die of heat stress and exhaustion. Certain but not all rats will attack helpless pinned opponents repeatedly, and sometime kill them. It is unclear of the rat understands that the other is helpless.
michalchik 2 years ago
Nice Video :)
I have not heard of anyother species torturing it's own kind but I couldn't say for certain they don't, I once had someone tell me that creativity was our unique trait, that was quickly solved by showing a video of a elephant painting...
Meiklelodians 2 years ago
gotta say, that is a killer Stan Laurel
also I haven't really researched this but I read it in a short story once, are there any other animals that keep pets?
not livestock but just kept for the sake of keeping them.
thunderpants10 2 years ago
We can torture because we have the ability to classify other people as different from ourselves and those around us. Before someone is tortured, the group they belong to is deemed subhuman in some way, often due to race or gender. So while we are torturing our fellow man in the literal sense, we aren't in a symbolic sense. In the end it all comes down to the power of our brain and its ability to create powerful enough symbol systems to reclassify everything in the world.
andyhoov 2 years ago
D'oh, I meant religion rather than gender by the way, though gender does of course play a role from time to time.
Also, torturing could be seen as just an extension of the natural instinct to protect one's own existence.
andyhoov 2 years ago
I also want to say that if you want to go for uniquely human, I support that it wasn't a single unique feature that makes us awesome. It is the unique combination of those abilities in a single package. Humans have both the capacity to learn and to teach. Humans have wonderfully useful hands. Humans have the capacity to abstract. Humans have the capacity to vocalize. Individual species will do one or two of these, but only humans have all of them. Humans are an emergent phenom/black swan
rowflowers 2 years ago
I would just like to say that "Torturing" is a behavior that is very difficult to observe. Firstly, animals can "murder", often in very gruesome and painful ways, why would that not be considered "torture"? Also, a lot of the definition of "torture" is psychological - inducing the fear of imminent harm or death even when harm is not imminent. Luck is a big factor in observing a behavior tied to an emotion in animals. I posit that maybe animals do torture, and the scientists haven't observed.
rowflowers 2 years ago
I suppose a clue to a defining characteristic would be the fact that we are using computers to post comments on videos, all technology invented by humans. :P
Brianswers 2 years ago
@Brianswers
I just wish I was an orangutan because that would just be the biggest pwnage of your comment ever!
noelplum99 2 years ago
Depends what you mean by torture I guess. I think I'd define it as a act that inflects pain on another for a reason or purpose.
So I think that does happen. It happens with my cats they fight from time to time not because they don't like each other but because it's a way of preparing them for the real thing.
Now this is nothing to the extent of what a human can do but I think thats probably down to because able to think of more effective means of torture.
leejw00t354 2 years ago
Interesting... first of all Frans de Waal reminded me of Van der Waal forces(okay that was the usesless part of my comment). Im not 100% sure of this but one thing that has been talked about in my intro-psych class is the inability of almost all animals to have any real conscious cognitive activity. Now humans may be controlled entirely by unconscious brain processes as well ( of course this opens up debate for other discussions about free will etc.) but cognition may be unique to humans.
NikEmmer 2 years ago
Great video. Miles of comments.
I reject torture as distinctly human. baboons and bottle nosed dolphins torture their own kind, for malice, not for death, but to cause suffering.
My vote is for most complex communicators, in which the cuttlefish is probably second. The complexity of our bonding rituals alone, far surpasses everything else alive. (And I meant bonding NOT mating.)
Adaptability? Nope; bacterium.
Cognitive skills per brain mass? Parrots and ravens.
DonQuixotedeKaw 2 years ago
Tool use and cognitive prescience are aspects of, and fully integrated with the complexity of our communications.
What is the single greatest cause of suicidal depression? Isolation. Without frequent feedback, (even schizophrenic hallucinations) and/or a revenge rational, no human suffering from isolation can maintain a desire to exist.
I leave you with one a word illustration; "WILSON!"
DonQuixotedeKaw 2 years ago
Language. Language makes us unique.
I know that's not the point of your video, but it's true.
TheLoquid 2 years ago
Some monkeys can learn sign language, create complete statements, with grammar and all.
fromeroj 2 years ago
Some great apes can learn a limited amount of sign language, but there communications are limited to telegraphic communications (ie they are capable of linking a verb and a noun), but they lack true language. Our capacity for language is truly unique and very remarkable. Also, human language is the only form of communication capable of meta-language, and the only form of animal communication capable of creativity (creating novel utterances for novel situations).
TheLoquid 2 years ago
"I say we do it around 2012 [. . .]"
Shh, I don't want the people who already believe that there's going to be a major event on 2012 to get any ideas...
Cyrathil 2 years ago
"And it's precisely that sort of arrogance [. . .]"
It's not arrogance. It's recognizing that we can do some damage if we actually put our minds to it.
I mean, if we just upset the orbit of the Earth around the sun enough, it could end up plummeting into the sun, and will be destroyed. That's not arrogance.
Cyrathil 2 years ago
I saw a special once called "The Darker Side of Chimps" I think. It showed them going out in groups, finding another lone chimp and brutalizing it almost to death for no apparent reason.
dannypantsgm 2 years ago
Territorial control. a very apparent reason, resources.
fromeroj 2 years ago
You mean like Factvsreligion? ;-)
KevinSolway 2 years ago
@KevinSolway
Hahaha, and somebody someday is going to explain to me why she is so very popular!
noelplum99 2 years ago
I think if your cats were human we would usually call that bullying, though I accept there is a fine line, eventually, where bullying ends and torture begins.
noelplum99 2 years ago
chickens will sometimes peck on a chicken in their group, because it has different feather colour. siamese fighting fish adult males will fight to death as soon as they meet. there are dog breeds that do the same. male lion will happily kill cubs of another male, etc. my grandma had several white sheep and one day she bought a white one with black face and the other sheep avoided her and kicked her if she came too close. it`s not really uncommon.
unkaodya 2 years ago
I once put a second fish into my fish tank and the other fish that was already there pursued it relentlessly for several weeks, till it was almost exhausted to death.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
I love your offbeat thoughtfulness, my friend. Keep on seeing the world in nifty new ways! :-)
Vic92084 2 years ago
As for your question, it depends entirely on your definition of torture.
I would, however, say that imagination (ability to reason abstractly, a theory of mind, the ability to conceive of the unreal, etc.) is a far more dominant and significant uniquely human trait than torture, which is an uncommon behavior within the human species.
Vic92084 2 years ago
I know Dolphins murder their own kind by ramming them to death. That could be seen as torture.
novellScott 2 years ago
The purpose is kill, not cause suffering, they don't have more effectively ways to kill than that.
fromeroj 2 years ago
i would say we rely on our intelligence more then any other animals because we are physically weaker, have poorer vision, hearing and sense of smell. and without our combined intelligence our species would be nothing.
thisis3d 2 years ago
If a chicken gets an injury in a group of chickens, the others will peck at the wound... I would equate that to torture... I mean... they aren't gonna get much information out of it, but it's still malicious and painful for the sufferer.
Brascofarian 2 years ago
complex speach
cadonus 2 years ago
To mazdaplz - The group of birds which fall under the corvid family are pretty clever at working out how a simeple, mechanical machine will work just by looking at it.
I think humans don't tend to interact with other species in the same way as other animals do. We are much more 'cut off' from them and tend to do our own thing. Maybe that contributes to us only toturing our own.
MichaelOrr1984 2 years ago
@MichaelOrr1984
This made me think of a macaw my father used to see at the local Koi gardens. My dad took the bird a butterscotch one day and asked if he could give it to the bird. The macaw took the sweet in its foot and examined it closely before using its beak to reposition it in its foot allowing it to nip the edge of the foil wrapper which it then gradually unfurled off the sweet in one piece.
He said the bird clearly had worked out its strategy to unwrap the sweet and then employed it.
noelplum99 2 years ago
There was a fascinating article in the New Scientist about 3 months ago which talked about the corvid group and how they are the most superior, in terms of mechanical thinking - beating the chimps! Basically they set up pulley systems to raise platforms etc so that they could get food. They would change it between experiments so that the platform might raise or descend. Corvids could stand and examine the test before pulling the correct rope almost every time.
MichaelOrr1984 2 years ago
@MichaelOrr1984
Every time I see a crow in the road it is apparent how much more intelligent they are than other birds (psittacids are bright I know but I tend not to see them in Lincolnshire!), there is just zero chance of running them over, they calmly observe and judge the traffic and fly to the verge and back again after you pass.
noelplum99 2 years ago
Sorry but if you would define torture as being violent to another being until you get what you wanted to achive, then there are lots of examples (wherever they fight one another). So when it comes to cruelty among your own kind, I ithink there are many species that don't stand behind humans. I do believe we have other unique (positive characteristics) that separate us from most animals.
Florence00pi 2 years ago
@Florence00pi
Well, that is fine as far as it goes but if you wish to take such a broad definition of torture then you have to define all human fights as torture. When two men brawl in a pub car park, over a woman or a spilled drink, that is torture according to your definition.
noelplum99 2 years ago
i think it's not surprising we dehumanize people that we consider dangerous to us, because we know how dangerous humans can be.
in the case of humans that enjoy torturing people they consider or know that are innocent then i think that is a mental disorder and it's not the norm but rather the exception. perhaps a mutation on the brain triggers the same latent abnormality traced back to a single first individual, might be the most logical explanation
mazdaplz 2 years ago
I can't say that I can think of anything that would be the equivalent of torturing your own species in any other animal. With other animals, they will beat the hell out of you until you leave or die...I don't know if that counts...It's still not tying them up and continuing after they desire to run away.
But I would add to that idea of torture that we are also the only species that proactively imprisons people. All others either kill or excommunicate the unwanted.
KingHeathen 2 years ago
I don't know, grammar? Knowledge of our own mortality? Formal logic and mathematics? Those seem pretty unique.
But torture? Chimpanzees are well known for their rather excessive inter-species violence. But I suppose it depends what you mean by 'torture' - if there's an intellectual component (the knowledge of pain and how to prolong it) then it's not surprising we are unique in that respect.
SkepticsClaw 2 years ago