the very symbol of cult series ... why is everyone always bent on the destruction of darkness ... the shadows might be a bit fanatic in their belief that progress only comes from conflict, but the vorlons are just as bad and ruthless pushing their own agenda
Anyone else notice that each race's planet killers were quite representative of their philosophies? The Vorlons' planet killer delivered swift, hard punishment, whereas the Shadows'was very brutal and in a way, more excruciating and painful. Heh, nice symmetry there.
When Captain Sheridan said to the Vorlons about that they had the technology to destroy Z'ha'dum, the reason I think the Vorlons didn't attack Z'ha'dum is cause of Lorien being there and it is out of respect for Lorien since Lorien was living on Z'ha'dum. Lorien was around when the Shadows and Vorlons were infant races.
Yeah, the Shadows respected Lorien and it makes very much sense the Vorlons did so as well.
Still, both Vorlons and Shadows had the technology to destroy each other's homeworlds, but given the huge amount of ships both races possessed, it makes me wonder if either side would have been able to even reach each other's world at all.
The cool thing that I just recently noticed is right after this scene, when the Vorlon figure and the Shadow figure appear to Delenn and Sheridan on the White Star, the Shadow figure speak with Ed Wasser's voice, the guy who plays Morden. Can't believe it took me all these years to catch that! Very appropriate. Another perfect little touch.
It's amazing that two species who've managed to live so long and advance so far (at least technologically) can have such fanatical, shallow, and warped perspectives. Common sense would tell you that order and chaos are two equal and necessary parts of life and cannot exist without each other. With only order, there can be no change and growth. With only chaos, there can be no creation as everything would be annihilated. You'd think they'd figure out both are essential to evolution.
@chockn i think you're the one who's confused. entropy is the inevitable end of all that is. i'm talking about how life needs both discipline and direction (order) as well as stimulation and challenge (chaos) to grow.
@Swordsman808 It's more likely that both races leaned towards those ideals but didn't embrace them 100 percent lest their societies collapse sort of like how Communists have never fully embraced its true ideals because its humanly impossible to do so. I agree with you though that you need equal amounts of Order AND Chaos to make a realisitc and functioning society. Notice how the Centari AND Narns both seemed to understand this and never became caught up in the philisophical aspect of the war.
@TheJboy88 Yeah, Kosh would never force them like his kindred in this video, If he was forcing them into things he wouldn't have helped Sheridan by bringing his proposal to his people of taking on the Shadows in the episode that Kosh was killed at the end. Maybe the Vorlons lost it because Kosh died and before that it was a long time that a Vorlon had died.
When the Shadows were talking to Delenn as Ivanova and she said "and War!", she got that wicked grin on her face like the Shadows lust for war and conflict but then again, they DO promote that sort of thing..... When the Shadows assumed the form of Dr Franklin, it felt like the devil himself was trying to tempt Delenn and when the Shadows assumed the form of Lennier, it felt like the Devil was trying to sweet talk Delenn by using a pleasant face.....
When the Shadows posing as Delenn told the real Delenn "You will fight because we tell you to fight!", I felt like saying "OR WHAT?! You'll kill us?! If I side with you, the Vorlons will kill me! If I side with them, YOU will kill me! Either way I'm dead so even if I die by choosing not to get involved, then at least I'll die free!".
As for Sheridan, I like how he verbally hammered the Vorlons and called them out on how they've been treating everyone.
If you notice, you have both race's favorites opposing the other.
Shadows had been considering humanity to be their protege over the Centauri, Vorlons did the same for Minbari. In the background, each race is trying to get the other's apprentice over to their side (this is especially noticable with Kosh, less so with Mr. Morden, since Delenn basically detected evil on the guy, but still)
Minbari confronts the Shadows, Humans confront the Vorlons.
@SgtHydra Yeah, the Minbari vs Shadows spat shown here was a battle of morals which ended with Delenn making the Shadows look like Nazis who wish to impose their ideas on everyone else.
The Humans vs Vorlons spat in turn was a battle over free will where Sheridan called out the Vorlons on trying to impose their ideas onto everyone else and not caring about them which ended with him making the Vorlons look cold and uncaring towards the younger races.
Furthermore, this dichotomy could be explored in relation to capitalism vs communism or republican vs democrat. These systems each have a distinct ideology behind them. We're the ones in the middle trying to "choose a side" just like how Sheridan and Delenn are being coerced to do.
Order vs chaos is not a religious debate, its a philosophical one. It's very similar to the functionalist vs conflict schools of thought. The question is, which one is better? maybe neither is better than the other. Perhaps both are necessary in equal balance. Maybe there's another option which we have yet to realize and understand. Obviously, they've each got their own respective pros and cons which is why it is a debate to begin with. I'm interested the most in a 3rd option.
Vorlons got a temper don't they.Madam Bathory is dead,blasted to pieces at the end of the vid.Vorlons save weird things too.They gave Jack the ripper a job.The shadows know,come with.
Wow, you've never had to make a tough choice in your life have you? The question between order and chaos comes from everyday life. Follow the path or run wild? Hold your purse tight for your dreams and those of your family or give freely and have faith that your charity will create a blessing? This is a common theme in the world at large, not something from one book. It comes from the nature of all things man and beast do to live. Call it God, call it fate, its been around a long, long time
The Shallow vs. Vorlons? Epoch movie theme? Matrix theme? Final Fantasty theme?
Final Conflict theme? Ori theme in Star Gate? Notice how many shows in sciefi went religious? What is the secret source of these religious themes?
All from a secret website put up in 1988. Believe it not, the predicted Little Book, which would finally explain the mystery of God. I read it, guess what? IT DOES!
As impossible as it sounds, it does! Everything
Finally put in a book( God vs. Satan Untold Story)
WoW !!!!!!!! I just realized that I remember that scene n just watched but now I understand the scene . I didn't think Vlns ( short ) where like that in other words they wanted other people 2 do the dirty work 4 them. I thought they were better than that. and w/ Kosh revealed him self 2 shave Sharieden.
and what would hav happend if they joined the others beyond the rim Hmmm " O " well
The big t.v. people should make another spin off of Babylon 5 that would be Nice : )
Its funny because its true.Reject your dieties,you are being played.The question remains,"What do you want."C'mon peeps stop being useless hosts of a parasite or parasites.Keep it real and become.
@bingoman333 I think all of the four questions are important, not only the vorlons "Who are you?" or the shadows "What do you want?". "Why are you here?" and "Where are you going?" are also main factors and they all influence each other. All of these are questions noone can answer for another person, just for himself.
power=control The true power is not religious,cultural or ethnic. It is economic and it uses all of the above mentioned groups and more. Think about it....
That statement is very inaccurate Tearvon. The vorlons did manipulate the genetics of the younger races to create telepaths. However they did not manipulate them to favor or view them as gods or angelic beings. Because they were advanced beings of pure energy many younger races believed them to be angels if they saw them without encounter suits. Also the shadows destroyed races of natural telepaths to prevent them from opposing them. For example when they killed all Narn telepaths.
@jdreyn02 Incorrect. There is a reason Ulkesh (Kosh's replacement) and the remains of Kosh showed their true forms at the end (and why Kosh was so tired after being seen by so many while saving Sheridan earlier). It is very strongly implied, if not outright confirmed, that the angelic form is a telepathic illusion that they intentionally create.
Though I didn't condone what the Shadows and Vorlons did, but in some ways they did show us what we are capable of. Sad how the war between the Shadows and Vorlons that lives were lost. Wars are always about ideology, in real life, that is very true. Humanity is somewhat similar to the Shadows and Vorlons. The Vorlons could have attacked Z'ha'dum and destroy the Shadows, but they chose not to. Wars are also about killing the message before it is sent.
@funkmystar Did you look at the site you idiot or was it too much for your tiny brain. Some theme repeated over and over again from movies like Matrix, to this, to Epoch, to a trace of it in Avatar. But there slight.
You fans are so off as to guessing what inspired this debate of blue vs. red ideology. Think about it.
Its been seen with the blue vs, red pill in Matrix. Seen in avator red dragon with blue aliens. Final Fantasty blue world soul vs. bad red world soul.
Stargate ori, good blue vs. bad red ascended beings. Good blue lanterns vs. red lanterns in DC comics. And so on. Where does it all come from? No single source? Not one permitted to the public.
its nothing so complex. the blue of the vorlons. it represents their harsh and cold nature where as the red represents the fire of the shadows and the chaos they unleash
I'm not sure that the man inbetween is Justin. I believe it is Lorien, in the cave Lorien suggests to John that he is inbetween moments, inbetween tick and tock and Lorien appeared in male form, Kosh knew this but was being "his" usual cryptic self when telling John. Don't know for sure but seems to make sense
Imagine this theme representing another hidden war waged between two superminds occupying Mankind within. Left brains united into one supermind, controller of right hands, right sides of human bodies. God of language skills, Words. Trying to unite all races. Right brain unite into a more Darwin minded supermind. 1 blue, 1 red. God/Satan. Fighting within us all. Order vs, chaos.
ww w . geo cit ies . co m / drwhorl / MAYBE single1 . h t m l remove spaces
I think i just figuered out my own puzzle with the clip. John knew the answer to the question before he asked it, he just wanted them to admit it, i can be thick when i think i'm being intelligent.
You're not thick at all. You hit upon the answer! Had the Vorlons acknowledged Lorien, the last remaining of the First of the First Ones, then, being the "rational lords of order" that they are, then they'd have to acknowledge Lorien's "worldview" and his wishes.
In the end, the Vorlons and the Shadows did just that. Was this episode loosely based on the Christmas Truce of 1914, when the enlisted refused to restart WW I, until some officer murdered an unarmed man on orders from above?
one point on this clip i dont understand is when john asks the vorlon rep why they havent struck at zhadum directly as their planet killers could have destroyed it outright. the only reason the shadows stayed there so long was they knew lorien was there and they revered ' him' . the shadows believed they were showing respect. and the vorlons knew as well as kosh told john to jump and lorien even ackknowledged to john in the cave that kosh knew he was there . kosh said look for the man inbetween
The Man Inbetween is Justin, the human mastermind working with the Shadows. He's Sheridans counterpart, working behind the scenes, organising wars, creating conflicts amongst the races, etc. He's the one Morden reports to.
Who is talking about money here? His ideas on explaining God. vs. Satan, what they truely are, why Hitler was driven to murder Jews, why Jews gravitate to working in banks and law, how God fights in modern politics is all explained. He had Hawkings recent zero boundary creation theory in it 21 years ago. Recent theories about how brain cells work together are also in it. Ideas used in Matrix, Epoch, even Transformers. Jews made millions off these ideas, not you obviously. Jews also smeared him
It's amazing where one can find "Jewish conspiracies" now. Fucking ridiculous. I'm Jewish, and I apparently haven't gotten any of the supposed benefits that all these nutcases talk about. Where's my wealth and power? Can I expect it soon? Is there a secret room beneath my synagogue.
@haereticusx1 You have to go to the secret meetings with the gays and "liberal media elites" on Tuesday nights in the Vatican. We start at seven, refreshments and the blood of Christian children are served.
@haereticusx1 The secrets in your veins you have to open them and look. Kidding I had to speak for the rednecks cause they don't have very good comebacks. I have jewish friends too and They have yet to take me to a secret meeting.
Any so-called Jewish conspiracy benefits the elite and conspirators only. For example, it's a conspiracy that Israel controls American politics via dual citizens in powerful positions in American government. What isn't a myth about that is that there are many people with dual citizenship and they work for Israeli interests. What is a myth about that is that they are working for the interests of the average Jew. They are not. They care about Israel's power and her elite only.
@67576856666478964567 This isn't conspiracy - this is lobby behavior that's entirely out-in-the-open. Its labeled a conspiracy essentially for the purposes antisemitism. For example, individuals who cite the "Protocols" claim that its not affecting the average Jew.. but who can find out if a Jew is really an "evil zionist"? Since they hide so well.. lies!
There are no conspiracies. The reason the country is where it is is because of Americans and only Americans. You want democracy - participate!
@haereticusx1 actualy yes you do have wealth. alot of it. and power? as a nation you have alot of power over others. you use it on many ocasions against your neighbours for example. the thing tough is.. its not a conspiracy - its the truth. you commit genocide daily against another people. while you live off the money that others give you. who helped you build israel? you think you did all by yourself? you live off the weakness others cant overcome
Exactly Fushpan, but lets take it further with my ex bf's theories. Nietzsche's was a genius who looked inside himself. He found a buried truth but couldn't really understand it, but he could describe it. So was lauzeckas, but he understood it. Left brain is order and language, combine all Left Brains in mankind, like cells in a brain, God. Combine intuition and impulse right brains in mankind, Satan. Both hide but try to control our destiny. They fight within us, thus sinning. Dogpile him.
Linda I love white German women. Are you blond? You forgot a few shows. StarGate ran a religious theme before they were canceled. They went with the Red in the show. Do you think it was the reason they canceled it. Battlestar Galactia went religious. News flash : Blacks are being blamed for his troubles not Jews. My people were set up to take the blame. Didn't you notice all the black actors in the 2nd and 3rd matrix movies? key black roles in Epoch 1 and 2 movies? You married? email?
Hangfire. I do know the show. I was reading scifi since I was a 10 year girl. But who used the Blue vs. Red theme the best? Babylon5? Final Conflict? Matrix? Transformers?
Did you check out sifiwriter? I picked up a comic book, Green Lantern, Blue Lanterns are holy good lanterns, Red Lanterns are evil?
Hawking's zero boundary new creation idea
is in MAYBE, 20 years before Hawking. It is copyrighted, I made him do it before 1990. I wasn't as naive about people as he was.
I'm angry because I was there in NJIT,1989 ,when Bob explained, using MAYBE, USA IT jobs might be moved to India. Jews and Indians are non-Christians who fight Muslims.
Natural allies. Whole cafeteria of engineering students laughed at the idea. Even me.
He protected Jews with his ideas. I'm half German. Not me. He was blacklisted from companies with Indian IT people, I wasn't, pretending to be Jewish. I made millions while Jews using his ideas made millions. He was lucky to find a job.
Bob steal? That's a laugh. Like the latest transformer movie with the Blue Matrix idea? How do you think I know him? I was there when he handed his essay in to a prof. teaching scifi at NJIT. she gave him an A++ and took him to dinner to explain MAYBE in more detail. Later she told him in class, she gave it over to her husband, Jewish, who had writer connections in Hollywood. That was 1988.
You know, after guessing this guy you admire was at least SOMEWHAT less ignorant than you, I checked him out.
Now chances were HIGH that I was DEAD wrong but after skimming through his homepage, I realized this guy had some flimsy evidence but quite a solid philosophic worldview.
Too bad he likes to steal ideas too.
If you had known about why the creator named it "Babylon" 5 in the first place I could see you figuring it out why.
I don't think the point is whether chaos is right, or order is right, or a balance thereof is right, but that the younger races develop an ideology for themselves, which the Vorlons and Shadows were preventing.
Think of it this way: consider two old librarians who have read a piece of literature and have opposing interpretations of the content; both are demanding that you pick a side! Do you pick a side, or try to come to a middle ground?
Or do you read it for yourself, in your own unique way?
order vs chaos, static vs change, safety vs freedom, Conservative vs liberal, creationism vs darwinism. Neither side of this spectrum if taken to extremism is right, but if you find a balance between the two, then ur sound!
No. The Shadows were right. The younger races needed to be humbled. They needed conflict in order to grow and evolve. The younger races just didn't understand. We have Medicine because of war and illness. Better airplanes because of the need for long-range bombers.
Stronger buildings due to earthquakes. Telephones to communicate, organize.
Computers to organize, communicate & control.
If not for these problems we wouldn't innovate.
If you're warm, happy & safe you will just stay home.
oh absolutely i agree, only they were extremists, and its extremists that are the problem. putting to much faith in order is foolish, but you need SOME organisation and the shadows wanted total chaos. in a world without order there is total freedom but no safety, and people want both, unfortunately they can't have both cos they tend to counteract, but at least you can balance them. Extremism, thats the problem.
Hitler took the idea of natural selection and twisted and perverted it to his own ends. He turned a simple fact of nature into an ideology.
You're falling into the same trap that the Vorlons and Shadows wanted the younger races to fall into: choosing one over the other. There will be conflict and evolution, it doesn't need to be helped. A life of pure conflict wouldn't be worth living. Likewise, even though pure order leads to stagnation, order doesn't need to be pure.
Logical fallacy - appeal to moderation. When presented with two opposing viewpoints, the correct ground is not necessarily in the middle. Some things are simply right or wrong. If we consider whether it is right or wrong to torture babies, then the conclusion isn't that it's *sometimes* ok to torture babies, but that it's always wrong to torture babies. Some extremes are valid. That said, I generally dislike extremism also!
its not a logical fallacy. always wrong to torture babies? well, i don't like people who torture babies i find tht disgusting, but it is only "always" wrong if morality is objective, and how on earth could morality be objective? thats like saying humour is objective. Maybe nobody finds my right toe funny, does that mean it is objectively non-funny? does it lack funny properties? what are funny properties? just cos nobody finds something right doesn't mean the ENTIRE system isn't subjective.
don't get me wrong, i understand what your getting at, some extremes are wise and practical and regarded as moral. But the point of the subjective is that its opinion, and opinion isnt fact, there are no moral "facts" how could there be? tht would be like having funny "facts", something is funny and that is a "fact", impossible because tht wud imply something can be funny without anyone to "find" it funny. Morality is based on what people "view" to be moral, facts are not, they simply are.
That's not what they are saying though. They are not arguing that you MUST chart a course exactly down the middle, they are just saying that dedicating yourself to ONLY either Chaos OR Evolution is incorrect, Sheriden and Delen are saying they can find a path with both, not that they must exactly go down the middle.
Darwinism, in the social sense, is one of the harshest forms of order. "Growth through pain, struggle, and conflict" is a conservative ideal as well as chaotic. Strength through chaos is very right-wing ideal.
Lawls Creationism vs Darwinism.... LOL! One is scientifically proven and the other is nothing more then vodoo and supersition... I wonder which is which "cackle"
Realized it just now: Usually it's the ancient powers who say emotion and ideology is meaningless. But here they say that it's all that really matters.
And this was supposedly a big action episode. I loved how the action was just a tool to aid the story. What I loved most about the show, was the growth of the characters and the exploration of philosophies, more than just the action sequences.
i think you could have let the video run more so we could hear the last part of the conversation where sheridan asks them who they are and what they want and to bog off that's a really cool bit :p
The Shadows did not lie. Adversity does breed strength. Pain does breed change and strength. It's vicious. It's heartless. Pain and hardship knows nothing of mercy or compassion. But what are the Shadows? They're insects. Evolution, suffering, pain and growth are perfectly logical to them. Think of an ant hive 10 billion years old.
Our ants already have a more perfect and harmonious society than we humans will ever have. Maybe humanity should take a deeper look in our own backyard.
The Thirdspace aliens could kick the crap out of them. But if you think about it, in thier roles as "guardians" the Shadows stayed closer to their mandate than the Vorlons did. The Shadows didn't want to wipe out the younger races, they wanted them to grow. To live. To evolve through adversity. They're NOT really "The Bad Guys". We only think they are because we're the ones doing the dieing. We don't see the bigger picture.
The Vorlons and Shadows have indeed degenerated into a couple of squabbling parents whether they meant to or not.
Both races have their faults to them. The Vorlons are hypocrites while the Shadows are warmongers.
Still, one must keep in kind that the two races actually believed in their respective ideologies, they just got overzealous with putting them into practice which of course, led to problems for the younger races.
Ideologies commonly have the flaw that they don't accept any other besides them. much like religion.
the key is to think and decide for oneself, but the vorlons and the shadows never let the younger races think and evolve for themselves. Perhaps they did when the first first ones went beyond, but at the time of bab 5, they had lost their way, just like Delenn said, and were so fixed on their respective ideology that they forgot about the respect for the other ones. understanding is a dialogue.
I think I would side with Kosh, true he was a Vorlon, but even he was hesitant about the Vorlons getting involved with the Shadows. Besides. "Understanding is a three edged sword."
i think kosh was a lot friendlier towards the younger races than the other vorlons.
he always tried to lead them to the truth, taught them how to fight legends, merged with sheridan. he perhaps, like lo rien, thought that their time in the galaxy was over and that they should move on, step aside.
Well, through the illusion of Sheridan's father, right before Kosh died, he said, when one gets old, one gets set in their ways, it was his time to go. you can expand that to the whole situation of the Vorlons and Shadows.
The vorlons are the ones that forced the shadow's hands 1st. the vorlons started geneticly minipulating the younger races to favor them. (which is not playing by the rules of only guiding them). so the shadows struck directly at the vorlons and the vorlons are the one that dragged the younger races to fight for them. The vorlons sacrifice lives that are not their own. So in their mind everyone is expendable. Kosh was the 1st death since they could remember. which means its been a lonnnng time
I think the Thirdspace incident incited this whole mess. The Vorlons believed that by imposing order, limiting the development of species to a pace that was considered "safe", etc. that they could prevent the younger races from making the same mistakes they did. The Shadows, believing that evolution should be along natural lines, tried to keep the Vorlons from being successful by starting wars and forcing the younger races to advance in order to survive.
The events that leadup to thridspace, the race at sigma957 warn them not to dig to deep in exploring the different lvls of space in this galaxy. when the vorlons let the 3rd space race into our world it took the combined effert of the other 1st ones "that were left" to send them back, and thats why most of the race don't like the vorlons. "they are extreamly arrogent". The shadows are the oldest of the 1st ones, but they have always pick fights with other races " but never killed them till now"
@Tearvon well, technically, Lorien is the oldest of the first ones.
Or he is a generation before the the First Ones, he does refer to them as his children. His race discovered them when the Shadows and Vorlons were infant races.
I did see Thirdspace. What I said is just my theory on the matter. If you look at the whole series there are things that don't make sense unless you take into account some kind of moderating factor. Hyperspace seems to be the only means of interstellar travel in the B5 universe. In Thirdspace, they discuss how all of the current major races, except Humans, discovered jump gates in their home systems, reversed engineered them and utilized them. Well who left them?
The Shadows use a different means to enter and exit Hyperspace so it is unlikely that they left them. It does make some sense that the Vorlons left them so that all the races would be on the same playing field when it came to interstellar travel and prevented anyone from developing some other means that could potentially lead them to discoveries that could potential lead to another Thirdspace event. And why is there a lack of really advanced races in the B5 universe?
@Fbueller129 because they all left..passing beyond the galaxys rim..the vorlons and shadows wwere left behind to "guard and shepard" the younger races, while i guess some of the other first ones stayed behind out of sentimental reasons, but chose not to interefere in the shadow/vorlon dispute over how to teach the next races to come
@sunnchilde Originally when humans first went into space, they met the centauri which allowed them to do interstellar travel cheaply and quickly at the cost of a tax, eventually humans figured out how to build their own jump gates. and eventually jump drives for larger ships such as warships and large trading and mining vessels.
@nesteph Or maybe that happened later, they would not be the last race to 'ascend' to becoming energy beings. The Vorlons did it too, and we have seen humanity will as well in 1,000,000 years (which according to Lyta is also when humanity will be ready to be allowed into Vorlon Space). It looks like it could be a technological advancement rather than evolution (obviously if it was evolution, it would not apply to Lorien).
@Tearvon If the Vorlons manipulated the genetics of the younger races to favor them, then why is anyone supporting the Shadows since it would be genetically impossible for Clark to take the Shadows up on their offer, or Londo either.
I guess the Shadow War was just a silly little rumor.
@Tearvon I think it's funny how you think that I haven't seen the entire series despite the actual war going up until the sixth episode of the fourth season. Oh, and I checked some B5 reference sites, and none of them say that the Shadows were right under Lorien's race, and every one of them say that the Vorlons and the Shadows were among the oldest of the First Ones, so did you actually watch the series?
@Tearvon You forget the first shadow war... and there were probably a few more before that. It sounds like from the dialogue that both races may have been shepherds to other races that could have already gone beyond the rim. Remember, they are both millions of years old, so even if the shadow war was 1000 years ago thats only a blink of an eye for these two races.
@Tearvon True, but the Shadows also manipulated the younger races with conspiracy and technology, so neither side really has the moral high ground. I do think the Vorlon philosophy is however more appealing to most civilizations, as prior to these events the Vorlons seem to have had somewhat good relations with younger races, in contrast to the Shadows and their servants which were viewed as boogymen.
@ScutigeraColeoptrata That is true the Shadows did Manipulate the younger race with conspiracy and Techology, but shadows only tempt the younger race. The vorlons literally fucked with our minds. We view them as the boogyman because the vorlons has scard us into thinking they are like that. I mean the shadows only begin to move every 1000 years, you think the vorlons are going to just sit and wait while the shadows wake up. They are going to control us through fear.
@Tearvon The shadows do more than simply tempt though; they enslaved Centauri Prime and other worlds at gun point and deliberately created wars which caused the loss of billions of lives, a greater loss of life than the Vorlons even at their worst were ever responsible for. Granted, that probably would have changed after Kosh's death, since the Vorlons seemed all too eager to wipe out worlds after that point as a result of a radical shift in political philosophy towards open militarism.
@ScutigeraColeoptrata The shadows didn't enslave Centauri prime, That was the price Centauri Prime payed in order to win the war against the Narns. And Molari was asked/tempted to sell out his race to them. Also the vorlons where the 1st ones to use their planet killers.
@Tearvon They asked at first, yes, but that changed into enslavement over time thanks to their minions, whom we can safely assume used Shadow tactics. Mr. Morden also 'carved up the universe' with Mollari, and given the Shadow's willingness to destroy entire colonies we can also assume that this was not simply posturing.
You're correct about the Vorlons using their planetkiller first. When Sheridan blasted Zha'ha'dum (sp?), the Vorlons saw an opening and took it. As Sheridan pointed out, they could have done the same thing to the Shadows' homeworld a long time a go but didn't. Both sides fought this war by proxy but the Shadows took a more hands on approach than the Vorlons.The Vorlons perferred to manipulate. Sinclair/Valen and Sheridan being their front men. Personally though, I favor the Vorlons.
@shadowmancer122 Agreed. Though the Vorlons did some shitty things throughout history, their ideas about order and peace and being part of a greater whole sound more ethical then the social darwinist crap that the Shadows put forth. Besides, the Shadows and their tech gives me the creeps, the Vorlons clearly didn't need to do much genetic manipulation to get us to hate the Shadows.....
@girlgarde Oh no. That's not the point at all. The Vorlons ideas 'sound' more ethical, but they were both wrong. It is not Chaos versus Order. It's not peace versus war. That's what they say it's about, but they both went to the extreme and that is why they were wrong. Both sides were hurting the younger races instead of helping.
@SetsunaNoroi I'm aware of that. Both the Vorlons and the Shadows forgot that they were promoting their ideas to guide the younger races but they became obsessed with besting each other so they did things that harmed everyone else. I'm merely saying that the message the Vorlons gave was more ethical even if the Vorlons themselves acted as badly as the Shadows did in their methods. In this case, the message isn't discredited because the messenger was an asshole.
@girlgarde Well, I suppose that comes down to opinion. Personally myself I think the Vorlons were the worse of the two (aside of course from Kosh who really seemed to care about the younger races). "Bow down and do what we tell you to do at all times like slaves." vs. helping along evolution by encouraging conflict. But that's just me spinning it so one side sounds better than the other. When both sides were hurting the younger races, it doesn't matter who 'sounded' more ethical.
@SetsunaNoroi Agreed. Both races were hurting the younger races with their stupid egos and desire to prove which of their ideals was superior. Still, I'd like to think that there were individuals amongst not just the Vorlons but the Shadows too who cared about the younger races and wanted the "my ideals are better then yours" crap to end but were blocked out by extremists who were obsessed with winning at all costs.
The thing about the Shadows' ideals, and the Shadows themselves, is that the key to it lies in their own evolutionary history. You can see it just in their physical appearance alone, they're an insectoid race, and insects are incredibly brutal and creepy (from a common view on them) in comparison to other kinds of animals. So it makes sense that their ideals match that, progression through violence, evolution through conflict, survival of the fittest, etc. I like that about them. :]
@InsurrectionistFungi I never said that the Shadows weren't cool, I'm merely saying that their appearance and ideals are creepy and hateful. Of course, that's what the writers were going for, they played on our disdain towards the lifestyle and appearance of insects to create a race that the audience would find sinister on numerous levels.
@InsurrectionistFungi For some reason though, I seem to think that since the Shadows are the polar opposite of the Vorlons, the Shadows just might be openly nurturing and caring towards their offspring and perhaps their servant races as well. In the B5 novels that cover Londo's time as Centauri Emperor, the Drakh who controlled Londo was nurturing to the keeper device that he had attached to Londo so perhaps the Shadows were the same way to the Drakh?
That's an interesting thought! I don't think that the Shadows would've been as harsh on the Drakh after they became strong enough to serve them faithfully. The Vorlons did no such thing with the Minbari, they treated them almost the same, just "gracing" them with their presence. The Shadows seemed more nurturing with their philosophy. Allow your "children" to fight it out, evolve with conflict and war, and those who emerge from it are rewarded, and so on.
@InsurrectionistFungi Yeah,i figured that it would make an interesting twist since it's shown that there are shades of grey amongst both the Vorlons AND the Shadows that the latter race would have SOME good things about them that punch holes in the "Shadows are evil incarnate" line of thought that the Vorlons put forth. I can even imagine the Shadows looking down on the Vorlons on how they treat their own servant races.
Exactly, the Shadows weren't evil, and the Vorlons knew it full well. They became too wrapped up in ideology. It would've been interesting though, to see a Shadow representative who, like Kosh, actually cared about the younger races, or at least actually still cared about helping them grow. I think that may have been a missed opportunity, and it could've provided an interesting dynamic. :D
I think that the Shadows/Vorlons would've at least had a mutual respect for each other, though.
@InsurrectionistFungi Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. It would have been very interesting to see a Shadow representative who cared about the younger races and wanted to help them evolve and grow. I can see him/her being openly caring and engaging in action to help end the Shadow Wars for good so the younger races could evolve and grow. If this rep survived the Shadow War though, I could even see him/her telling the Drakh that they had to leave but to continue their work in their place.......
@InsurrectionistFungi I agree with what you said the Shadows were not evil, just misguided like the Vorlons. They got too wrapped up in their own ideology, forgot that their purpose was to help the younger races.
I think, that in their own way, the Shadows stayed more true to their ideology in the end. The Vorlons did too, but they just expected the younger races to stand by and do nothing, and be good little lapdogs or whatever. Or maybe I'm just overplaying the good of the Shadows and the bad of the Vorlons. :3
Another good point. Yeah, that's what I liked so much about Babylon 5. In the end, neither the Shadows or the Vorlons could be defined as being "good" or "evil", but perhaps misguided.
I used to cheer a lot for the Vorlons in the series, until I found out that they destroyed an entire planet and killed so many people. I remember feeling quite disillusioned back then. They were nothing different from the Shadows. It was quite an amazing plottwist. :)
For a while I was more behind the Vorlons than the Shadows, until after my second full sequential viewing of the series. I mean, I understood that neither side were good or evil, but yeah, I think people tend to get in line with the Vorlons because theirs seems less violent, until they bring out their guns.
But, it's awesome that B5 encourages actual thinking with it, instead of telling you "this person is right" or whatever. I have a sort of reluctant support of the Shadows' method.
This clip shows both philosophies 'raw', without individual personalities tempering the ideas. Presumably the Shadows had members similar to Kosh who cared about the younger races and wanted to see fair competition between them, as opposed to the brutal oppression the Shadow War resulted in.
@brav0wing That is true, what G'kar said, But the shadows never had any interest in fighting or killing the younger race, they didnt wipe out an entire race only because they didnt want to follow them. The vorlons always up the battle. they genetically made us favor them. they fucked with our minds and they destroyed entire worlds 1st.. And if there is no more races its because of the vorlons and not the shadows
When Sheridan went to Z'ha'dum, the shadows told him that their porpose was to create conflicts so the younger races would turn out better, like knocking down an ant hill. Some races would die in the process but the surviving ones would be stronger and much more evolved! That's why they were feared, because they created the conflicts, they started the wars!
In the last stages of the war, both the shadows and the vorlon ended up destrying entire planets!
@Tearvon But I agree with the fact that the vorlons fucked up with the younger races' minds in orther to respond favorably to them. That's why sheridan kicked them out of the galaxy, because both races failed in their task as shepards! They were like parents who would use theri children as weapons to gain an advantage! BOTH RACES MANIPULATED US!
As for me, I liked the shadows and the vorlons in equal measure!
@Tearvon we dont know who started what. but the vorlons as the shadows choose to usualy remain in the background and let the other races fight it off. and when the shadows manipulate others into conflicts who says the vorlons cant intervene and give them at least the weapons they need to win? > telepaths
@chockn actually they said it, the vorlons are the ones that started it 1st by using the younger race, bringing them into the war, and genetically manipulating them. which is againt the rule of only guiding them.
Curious, the woman incased in that barrier, was she is a disgusied representation of a character sheridan once knew, the shadows used masked representations of Delenn's friends to mainpulate her, so i was curious on who that woman was who reprsented the voice of the vorlons?
the very symbol of cult series ... why is everyone always bent on the destruction of darkness ... the shadows might be a bit fanatic in their belief that progress only comes from conflict, but the vorlons are just as bad and ruthless pushing their own agenda
antiprozacnation 5 days ago
Anyone else notice that each race's planet killers were quite representative of their philosophies? The Vorlons' planet killer delivered swift, hard punishment, whereas the Shadows'was very brutal and in a way, more excruciating and painful. Heh, nice symmetry there.
InsurrectionistFungi 1 month ago
@InsurrectionistFungi
Good point. It really seems that both Shadow and Vorlon technology has developed and grown around their respective ideologies.
A Vorlon fleet feels orderly and efficient, with each ship individually being very powerful.
A Shadow fleet feels chaotic and fear inducing/demoralizing, focusing on superior numbers instead.
Out of all the science fiction shows I've seen, both Shadows and Vorlons are my favorite races.
RockyH2 1 month ago
When Captain Sheridan said to the Vorlons about that they had the technology to destroy Z'ha'dum, the reason I think the Vorlons didn't attack Z'ha'dum is cause of Lorien being there and it is out of respect for Lorien since Lorien was living on Z'ha'dum. Lorien was around when the Shadows and Vorlons were infant races.
jeffman52001 1 month ago
@jeffman52001
Yeah, the Shadows respected Lorien and it makes very much sense the Vorlons did so as well.
Still, both Vorlons and Shadows had the technology to destroy each other's homeworlds, but given the huge amount of ships both races possessed, it makes me wonder if either side would have been able to even reach each other's world at all.
RockyH2 1 month ago
The cool thing that I just recently noticed is right after this scene, when the Vorlon figure and the Shadow figure appear to Delenn and Sheridan on the White Star, the Shadow figure speak with Ed Wasser's voice, the guy who plays Morden. Can't believe it took me all these years to catch that! Very appropriate. Another perfect little touch.
Cassadinegirlaz 2 months ago
@Cassadinegirlaz Liked hearing the Shadow speak, finally.
jeffman52001 1 month ago
Remember, everyone saying that the Vorlon's forced the Shadows' hands, we only know that because a representative for the Shadows said so.
It might be true, but remember, the messenger in this cause isn't entirely dependable.
Buttersbot2 5 months ago
It's amazing that two species who've managed to live so long and advance so far (at least technologically) can have such fanatical, shallow, and warped perspectives. Common sense would tell you that order and chaos are two equal and necessary parts of life and cannot exist without each other. With only order, there can be no change and growth. With only chaos, there can be no creation as everything would be annihilated. You'd think they'd figure out both are essential to evolution.
Swordsman808 6 months ago 4
@Swordsman808 i think you are confusing order and chaos with enthropy.
chockn 5 months ago
@chockn i think you're the one who's confused. entropy is the inevitable end of all that is. i'm talking about how life needs both discipline and direction (order) as well as stimulation and challenge (chaos) to grow.
Swordsman808 5 months ago
@Swordsman808 It's more likely that both races leaned towards those ideals but didn't embrace them 100 percent lest their societies collapse sort of like how Communists have never fully embraced its true ideals because its humanly impossible to do so. I agree with you though that you need equal amounts of Order AND Chaos to make a realisitc and functioning society. Notice how the Centari AND Narns both seemed to understand this and never became caught up in the philisophical aspect of the war.
girlgarde 3 months ago in playlist girlgarde's Favorited Videos
As much as I think the Vorlons are cool I must confess.
Kosh was probably the only Vorlon I actually liked.
Somehow I can't see him pushing a philosophy of order an anyone like this.
TheJboy88 6 months ago 3
@TheJboy88 Yeah, Kosh would never force them like his kindred in this video, If he was forcing them into things he wouldn't have helped Sheridan by bringing his proposal to his people of taking on the Shadows in the episode that Kosh was killed at the end. Maybe the Vorlons lost it because Kosh died and before that it was a long time that a Vorlon had died.
michaelhviper 5 months ago
When the Shadows were talking to Delenn as Ivanova and she said "and War!", she got that wicked grin on her face like the Shadows lust for war and conflict but then again, they DO promote that sort of thing..... When the Shadows assumed the form of Dr Franklin, it felt like the devil himself was trying to tempt Delenn and when the Shadows assumed the form of Lennier, it felt like the Devil was trying to sweet talk Delenn by using a pleasant face.....
girlgarde 6 months ago
When the Shadows posing as Delenn told the real Delenn "You will fight because we tell you to fight!", I felt like saying "OR WHAT?! You'll kill us?! If I side with you, the Vorlons will kill me! If I side with them, YOU will kill me! Either way I'm dead so even if I die by choosing not to get involved, then at least I'll die free!".
As for Sheridan, I like how he verbally hammered the Vorlons and called them out on how they've been treating everyone.
girlgarde 7 months ago
One of the dead on commentaries of our times
vnvfan666 10 months ago
The Shadows and Vorlons are in reality reflections of opposite sides of the human condition, on one side anarchy, on the other order without mercy
RonanMacQuarrie 10 months ago
The defining moment of the series.
ordelljones 1 year ago
If you notice, you have both race's favorites opposing the other.
Shadows had been considering humanity to be their protege over the Centauri, Vorlons did the same for Minbari. In the background, each race is trying to get the other's apprentice over to their side (this is especially noticable with Kosh, less so with Mr. Morden, since Delenn basically detected evil on the guy, but still)
Minbari confronts the Shadows, Humans confront the Vorlons.
Brilliant writing, eh?
SgtHydra 1 year ago 8
@SgtHydra Yeah, the Minbari vs Shadows spat shown here was a battle of morals which ended with Delenn making the Shadows look like Nazis who wish to impose their ideas on everyone else.
The Humans vs Vorlons spat in turn was a battle over free will where Sheridan called out the Vorlons on trying to impose their ideas onto everyone else and not caring about them which ended with him making the Vorlons look cold and uncaring towards the younger races.
girlgarde 2 months ago
Furthermore, this dichotomy could be explored in relation to capitalism vs communism or republican vs democrat. These systems each have a distinct ideology behind them. We're the ones in the middle trying to "choose a side" just like how Sheridan and Delenn are being coerced to do.
J0N0614 1 year ago
Order vs chaos is not a religious debate, its a philosophical one. It's very similar to the functionalist vs conflict schools of thought. The question is, which one is better? maybe neither is better than the other. Perhaps both are necessary in equal balance. Maybe there's another option which we have yet to realize and understand. Obviously, they've each got their own respective pros and cons which is why it is a debate to begin with. I'm interested the most in a 3rd option.
J0N0614 1 year ago
@J0N0614 It is also a religious debate, not only philosophical! This topic is not limited to just one venue of interest!
brav0wing 10 months ago
Vorlons got a temper don't they.Madam Bathory is dead,blasted to pieces at the end of the vid.Vorlons save weird things too.They gave Jack the ripper a job.The shadows know,come with.
bingoman333 1 year ago
Wow, you've never had to make a tough choice in your life have you? The question between order and chaos comes from everyday life. Follow the path or run wild? Hold your purse tight for your dreams and those of your family or give freely and have faith that your charity will create a blessing? This is a common theme in the world at large, not something from one book. It comes from the nature of all things man and beast do to live. Call it God, call it fate, its been around a long, long time
Roycesraphim1 1 year ago 2
The Shallow vs. Vorlons? Epoch movie theme? Matrix theme? Final Fantasty theme?
Final Conflict theme? Ori theme in Star Gate? Notice how many shows in sciefi went religious? What is the secret source of these religious themes?
All from a secret website put up in 1988. Believe it not, the predicted Little Book, which would finally explain the mystery of God. I read it, guess what? IT DOES!
As impossible as it sounds, it does! Everything
Finally put in a book( God vs. Satan Untold Story)
lindazimmer 1 year ago
WoW !!!!!!!! I just realized that I remember that scene n just watched but now I understand the scene . I didn't think Vlns ( short ) where like that in other words they wanted other people 2 do the dirty work 4 them. I thought they were better than that. and w/ Kosh revealed him self 2 shave Sharieden.
and what would hav happend if they joined the others beyond the rim Hmmm " O " well
The big t.v. people should make another spin off of Babylon 5 that would be Nice : )
HarPlayer 1 year ago
God this show was creative. Sci Fi is all but dead now...
Argonova 1 year ago
in the final analysis, i believe the vorlons and shadows are equally evil. still, shadow ships are still creepy as hell!!!
silaku 1 year ago
Its funny because its true.Reject your dieties,you are being played.The question remains,"What do you want."C'mon peeps stop being useless hosts of a parasite or parasites.Keep it real and become.
bingoman333 1 year ago
@bingoman333 I think all of the four questions are important, not only the vorlons "Who are you?" or the shadows "What do you want?". "Why are you here?" and "Where are you going?" are also main factors and they all influence each other. All of these are questions noone can answer for another person, just for himself.
thedragon133 1 year ago
power=control The true power is not religious,cultural or ethnic. It is economic and it uses all of the above mentioned groups and more. Think about it....
MrKos1995 1 year ago
That statement is very inaccurate Tearvon. The vorlons did manipulate the genetics of the younger races to create telepaths. However they did not manipulate them to favor or view them as gods or angelic beings. Because they were advanced beings of pure energy many younger races believed them to be angels if they saw them without encounter suits. Also the shadows destroyed races of natural telepaths to prevent them from opposing them. For example when they killed all Narn telepaths.
jdreyn02 1 year ago
@jdreyn02 Incorrect. There is a reason Ulkesh (Kosh's replacement) and the remains of Kosh showed their true forms at the end (and why Kosh was so tired after being seen by so many while saving Sheridan earlier). It is very strongly implied, if not outright confirmed, that the angelic form is a telepathic illusion that they intentionally create.
suchiuomizu 1 year ago
wow thanks, one of my favorite scenes in the whole series
mobiusbelmont 1 year ago
and to think the Thirdspace Aliens were worse than them combined
wolgreth 1 year ago
"get off my galaxy!" hehe Sheridan pulls a Harrison Ford
wolgreth 1 year ago
vorlons just as bad as shadows? hard to believe, they did give the younger races weapons, ships to fight the shadows
wolgreth 1 year ago
To linda
I apologise for such personal comments, I was well out of order.
funkmystar 1 year ago
Though I didn't condone what the Shadows and Vorlons did, but in some ways they did show us what we are capable of. Sad how the war between the Shadows and Vorlons that lives were lost. Wars are always about ideology, in real life, that is very true. Humanity is somewhat similar to the Shadows and Vorlons. The Vorlons could have attacked Z'ha'dum and destroy the Shadows, but they chose not to. Wars are also about killing the message before it is sent.
jeffman52001 1 year ago
You fans, think about it, sshh, piss off miss know it all slag
funkmystar 1 year ago
@funkmystar Did you look at the site you idiot or was it too much for your tiny brain. Some theme repeated over and over again from movies like Matrix, to this, to Epoch, to a trace of it in Avatar. But there slight.
time to tell the Germans how hollywood works.
ww w godmystery c om
lindazimmer 1 year ago
You fans are so off as to guessing what inspired this debate of blue vs. red ideology. Think about it.
Its been seen with the blue vs, red pill in Matrix. Seen in avator red dragon with blue aliens. Final Fantasty blue world soul vs. bad red world soul.
Stargate ori, good blue vs. bad red ascended beings. Good blue lanterns vs. red lanterns in DC comics. And so on. Where does it all come from? No single source? Not one permitted to the public.
ssshhhh
ww w godmystery c om
lindazimmer 1 year ago
@lindazimmer
its nothing so complex. the blue of the vorlons. it represents their harsh and cold nature where as the red represents the fire of the shadows and the chaos they unleash
OmegaShenron6574 1 year ago
@TechnomancerMorhion
I'm not sure that the man inbetween is Justin. I believe it is Lorien, in the cave Lorien suggests to John that he is inbetween moments, inbetween tick and tock and Lorien appeared in male form, Kosh knew this but was being "his" usual cryptic self when telling John. Don't know for sure but seems to make sense
funkmystar 2 years ago
say what you like about the shadows, but at least they admit stuff :P
kaosruin 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Imagine this theme representing another hidden war waged between two superminds occupying Mankind within. Left brains united into one supermind, controller of right hands, right sides of human bodies. God of language skills, Words. Trying to unite all races. Right brain unite into a more Darwin minded supermind. 1 blue, 1 red. God/Satan. Fighting within us all. Order vs, chaos.
ww w . geo cit ies . co m / drwhorl / MAYBE single1 . h t m l remove spaces
Now I let you see. I let you know.
lindazimmer 2 years ago
interesting theory lindazimmer but i do like you're last sentance , clever !
funkmystar 2 years ago
I think i just figuered out my own puzzle with the clip. John knew the answer to the question before he asked it, he just wanted them to admit it, i can be thick when i think i'm being intelligent.
funkmystar 2 years ago
You're not thick at all. You hit upon the answer! Had the Vorlons acknowledged Lorien, the last remaining of the First of the First Ones, then, being the "rational lords of order" that they are, then they'd have to acknowledge Lorien's "worldview" and his wishes.
In the end, the Vorlons and the Shadows did just that. Was this episode loosely based on the Christmas Truce of 1914, when the enlisted refused to restart WW I, until some officer murdered an unarmed man on orders from above?
smadeintheshade 2 years ago
Lorien isn't the "last remaining" of the First Ones. He is simply the last of his race who stayed behind.
gribae 2 years ago
one point on this clip i dont understand is when john asks the vorlon rep why they havent struck at zhadum directly as their planet killers could have destroyed it outright. the only reason the shadows stayed there so long was they knew lorien was there and they revered ' him' . the shadows believed they were showing respect. and the vorlons knew as well as kosh told john to jump and lorien even ackknowledged to john in the cave that kosh knew he was there . kosh said look for the man inbetween
funkmystar 2 years ago
The Man Inbetween is Justin, the human mastermind working with the Shadows. He's Sheridans counterpart, working behind the scenes, organising wars, creating conflicts amongst the races, etc. He's the one Morden reports to.
TechnomancerMorhion 2 years ago 2
Who is talking about money here? His ideas on explaining God. vs. Satan, what they truely are, why Hitler was driven to murder Jews, why Jews gravitate to working in banks and law, how God fights in modern politics is all explained. He had Hawkings recent zero boundary creation theory in it 21 years ago. Recent theories about how brain cells work together are also in it. Ideas used in Matrix, Epoch, even Transformers. Jews made millions off these ideas, not you obviously. Jews also smeared him
lindazimmer 2 years ago
It's amazing where one can find "Jewish conspiracies" now. Fucking ridiculous. I'm Jewish, and I apparently haven't gotten any of the supposed benefits that all these nutcases talk about. Where's my wealth and power? Can I expect it soon? Is there a secret room beneath my synagogue.
Neanderthal.
haereticusx1 2 years ago 46
@haereticusx1
Although I gave you a thumbs up, I must disagree with the use of the word Neanderthal. I think that Chro-Magnon fits better.
Marinanor 1 year ago
@haereticusx1 Well said, sir. Well said.
Kainlarsen 1 year ago
@haereticusx1 You have to go to the secret meetings with the gays and "liberal media elites" on Tuesday nights in the Vatican. We start at seven, refreshments and the blood of Christian children are served.
rjbonacolta 1 year ago
@haereticusx1
As Cartman said, we all know you hide your secret bag of gold on you somewhere...
Intranetusa 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@haereticusx1
As Cartman said, we all know you hide your secret bag of gold on you somewhere...
Intranetusa 11 months ago
@haereticusx1 The secrets in your veins you have to open them and look. Kidding I had to speak for the rednecks cause they don't have very good comebacks. I have jewish friends too and They have yet to take me to a secret meeting.
screamwriter1 9 months ago
@haereticusx1
Any so-called Jewish conspiracy benefits the elite and conspirators only. For example, it's a conspiracy that Israel controls American politics via dual citizens in powerful positions in American government. What isn't a myth about that is that there are many people with dual citizenship and they work for Israeli interests. What is a myth about that is that they are working for the interests of the average Jew. They are not. They care about Israel's power and her elite only.
67576856666478964567 8 months ago
@67576856666478964567 This isn't conspiracy - this is lobby behavior that's entirely out-in-the-open. Its labeled a conspiracy essentially for the purposes antisemitism. For example, individuals who cite the "Protocols" claim that its not affecting the average Jew.. but who can find out if a Jew is really an "evil zionist"? Since they hide so well.. lies!
There are no conspiracies. The reason the country is where it is is because of Americans and only Americans. You want democracy - participate!
haereticusx1 8 months ago
@haereticusx1 actualy yes you do have wealth. alot of it. and power? as a nation you have alot of power over others. you use it on many ocasions against your neighbours for example. the thing tough is.. its not a conspiracy - its the truth. you commit genocide daily against another people. while you live off the money that others give you. who helped you build israel? you think you did all by yourself? you live off the weakness others cant overcome
chockn 5 months ago
Exactly Fushpan, but lets take it further with my ex bf's theories. Nietzsche's was a genius who looked inside himself. He found a buried truth but couldn't really understand it, but he could describe it. So was lauzeckas, but he understood it. Left brain is order and language, combine all Left Brains in mankind, like cells in a brain, God. Combine intuition and impulse right brains in mankind, Satan. Both hide but try to control our destiny. They fight within us, thus sinning. Dogpile him.
lindazimmer 2 years ago
Linda I love white German women. Are you blond? You forgot a few shows. StarGate ran a religious theme before they were canceled. They went with the Red in the show. Do you think it was the reason they canceled it. Battlestar Galactia went religious. News flash : Blacks are being blamed for his troubles not Jews. My people were set up to take the blame. Didn't you notice all the black actors in the 2nd and 3rd matrix movies? key black roles in Epoch 1 and 2 movies? You married? email?
samchaseblack 2 years ago 2
Hangfire. I do know the show. I was reading scifi since I was a 10 year girl. But who used the Blue vs. Red theme the best? Babylon5? Final Conflict? Matrix? Transformers?
Did you check out sifiwriter? I picked up a comic book, Green Lantern, Blue Lanterns are holy good lanterns, Red Lanterns are evil?
Hawking's zero boundary new creation idea
is in MAYBE, 20 years before Hawking. It is copyrighted, I made him do it before 1990. I wasn't as naive about people as he was.
lindazimmer 2 years ago
I'm angry because I was there in NJIT,1989 ,when Bob explained, using MAYBE, USA IT jobs might be moved to India. Jews and Indians are non-Christians who fight Muslims.
Natural allies. Whole cafeteria of engineering students laughed at the idea. Even me.
He protected Jews with his ideas. I'm half German. Not me. He was blacklisted from companies with Indian IT people, I wasn't, pretending to be Jewish. I made millions while Jews using his ideas made millions. He was lucky to find a job.
lindazimmer 2 years ago
Bob steal? That's a laugh. Like the latest transformer movie with the Blue Matrix idea? How do you think I know him? I was there when he handed his essay in to a prof. teaching scifi at NJIT. she gave him an A++ and took him to dinner to explain MAYBE in more detail. Later she told him in class, she gave it over to her husband, Jewish, who had writer connections in Hollywood. That was 1988.
lindazimmer 2 years ago
You know, after guessing this guy you admire was at least SOMEWHAT less ignorant than you, I checked him out.
Now chances were HIGH that I was DEAD wrong but after skimming through his homepage, I realized this guy had some flimsy evidence but quite a solid philosophic worldview.
Too bad he likes to steal ideas too.
If you had known about why the creator named it "Babylon" 5 in the first place I could see you figuring it out why.
But you know nothing about the show.
That's obvious.
HangfireNikolay 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Wow, censorship at youtube and Google by Jews?
Can't google Robert Lauzeckas, but Dogpile him.
Amazing site. Hollywood stole his ideas all over science fiction. Look for MAYBE before they take this down as well.
lindazimmer 2 years ago
I don't think the point is whether chaos is right, or order is right, or a balance thereof is right, but that the younger races develop an ideology for themselves, which the Vorlons and Shadows were preventing.
Think of it this way: consider two old librarians who have read a piece of literature and have opposing interpretations of the content; both are demanding that you pick a side! Do you pick a side, or try to come to a middle ground?
Or do you read it for yourself, in your own unique way?
ChristopherDone 2 years ago 2
Hi folks.
Connect the scifi story dots.
Order Blue vs. Red Chaos - Babylon5
Blue pill vs. Red pill - Matrix?
Blue Lantern vs. Red Lanterns recently?
Blue vs. Red in Final Conflict?
Google Robert Lauzeckas
sifiwriter 2 years ago
is the woman in the ice block supposed to represent the blind woman of justice?
darthkarr 2 years ago
I'm not sure if that was intended, the main idea was the rigid strength of order - and its stagnant weakness as expressed by the glacier.
brutusz5z 2 years ago
I have been looking for this clip forever for a video i want to make thank you :)
ShellySummers 2 years ago
order vs chaos, static vs change, safety vs freedom, Conservative vs liberal, creationism vs darwinism. Neither side of this spectrum if taken to extremism is right, but if you find a balance between the two, then ur sound!
dawoel 3 years ago 2
No. The Shadows were right. The younger races needed to be humbled. They needed conflict in order to grow and evolve. The younger races just didn't understand. We have Medicine because of war and illness. Better airplanes because of the need for long-range bombers.
Stronger buildings due to earthquakes. Telephones to communicate, organize.
Computers to organize, communicate & control.
If not for these problems we wouldn't innovate.
If you're warm, happy & safe you will just stay home.
sunnchilde 3 years ago 3
oh absolutely i agree, only they were extremists, and its extremists that are the problem. putting to much faith in order is foolish, but you need SOME organisation and the shadows wanted total chaos. in a world without order there is total freedom but no safety, and people want both, unfortunately they can't have both cos they tend to counteract, but at least you can balance them. Extremism, thats the problem.
dawoel 3 years ago
since it's all just atoms and laws, it's all empty anyway
bagOprions 2 years ago
Hitler took the idea of natural selection and twisted and perverted it to his own ends. He turned a simple fact of nature into an ideology.
You're falling into the same trap that the Vorlons and Shadows wanted the younger races to fall into: choosing one over the other. There will be conflict and evolution, it doesn't need to be helped. A life of pure conflict wouldn't be worth living. Likewise, even though pure order leads to stagnation, order doesn't need to be pure.
The answer is 'both'.
Mark73 2 years ago
duh
darthkarr 2 years ago
Logical fallacy - appeal to moderation. When presented with two opposing viewpoints, the correct ground is not necessarily in the middle. Some things are simply right or wrong. If we consider whether it is right or wrong to torture babies, then the conclusion isn't that it's *sometimes* ok to torture babies, but that it's always wrong to torture babies. Some extremes are valid. That said, I generally dislike extremism also!
Bardan1979 2 years ago 2
its not a logical fallacy. always wrong to torture babies? well, i don't like people who torture babies i find tht disgusting, but it is only "always" wrong if morality is objective, and how on earth could morality be objective? thats like saying humour is objective. Maybe nobody finds my right toe funny, does that mean it is objectively non-funny? does it lack funny properties? what are funny properties? just cos nobody finds something right doesn't mean the ENTIRE system isn't subjective.
dawoel 2 years ago
don't get me wrong, i understand what your getting at, some extremes are wise and practical and regarded as moral. But the point of the subjective is that its opinion, and opinion isnt fact, there are no moral "facts" how could there be? tht would be like having funny "facts", something is funny and that is a "fact", impossible because tht wud imply something can be funny without anyone to "find" it funny. Morality is based on what people "view" to be moral, facts are not, they simply are.
dawoel 2 years ago
That's not what they are saying though. They are not arguing that you MUST chart a course exactly down the middle, they are just saying that dedicating yourself to ONLY either Chaos OR Evolution is incorrect, Sheriden and Delen are saying they can find a path with both, not that they must exactly go down the middle.
RogueCannon 2 years ago
Darwinism, in the social sense, is one of the harshest forms of order. "Growth through pain, struggle, and conflict" is a conservative ideal as well as chaotic. Strength through chaos is very right-wing ideal.
IggyHazard 2 years ago
There is no real Darwinism in the social sense. Darwinism only applies to biology/evolution, and can not be applied to society.
Social Darwinism was a piece of crap idea created by Charles Darwin's cousin...that's where the phrase 'survival of the fittest' comes from.
Intranetusa 2 years ago
Lawls Creationism vs Darwinism.... LOL! One is scientifically proven and the other is nothing more then vodoo and supersition... I wonder which is which "cackle"
Tearvon 2 years ago
And yet Darwin himself stole the research and findings and simply slapped his own name on it.
gribae 2 years ago
@gribae who did darwin steal the Research from?
Tearvon 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@gribae What? Where's your proof? Your documentation?
Ares99999 1 year ago
I was hoping the video would show Lorien
victor2cutube 3 years ago
Realized it just now: Usually it's the ancient powers who say emotion and ideology is meaningless. But here they say that it's all that really matters.
7ych0 3 years ago
wow this was an awesome episode full of deep introspection.
doctorw2 3 years ago 2
And this was supposedly a big action episode. I loved how the action was just a tool to aid the story. What I loved most about the show, was the growth of the characters and the exploration of philosophies, more than just the action sequences.
kuryamtl 3 years ago
war brings new technology, weapons..missles...tanks.....and all that stuff.....odd....but true...
ColonelFleet 3 years ago
Struggle, survival, need, the mother of all invention.
Foxstab 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
This episode explained much(all) but was just extremly bad and cheap.
xboxstrike 3 years ago
i think you could have let the video run more so we could hear the last part of the conversation where sheridan asks them who they are and what they want and to bog off that's a really cool bit :p
aeonbrit 3 years ago
Vorlons - Hypocrites
Shadows - Warmongers
lukegreen3 3 years ago
The Shadows did not lie. Adversity does breed strength. Pain does breed change and strength. It's vicious. It's heartless. Pain and hardship knows nothing of mercy or compassion. But what are the Shadows? They're insects. Evolution, suffering, pain and growth are perfectly logical to them. Think of an ant hive 10 billion years old.
Our ants already have a more perfect and harmonious society than we humans will ever have. Maybe humanity should take a deeper look in our own backyard.
sunnchilde 3 years ago
True. The Vorlons proved as bloodthirsty as the Shadows.
EvolutionStratus 3 years ago
Ruthless. Not quite the same as 'bloodthirsty'.
sunnchilde 3 years ago
"Understanding is a three-edged sword..."
That is SO true.
thedragon133 3 years ago 6
I wonder if the shadows would sing the same tune if they were attacked by a much stronger race
toleodor 3 years ago
The Thirdspace aliens could kick the crap out of them. But if you think about it, in thier roles as "guardians" the Shadows stayed closer to their mandate than the Vorlons did. The Shadows didn't want to wipe out the younger races, they wanted them to grow. To live. To evolve through adversity. They're NOT really "The Bad Guys". We only think they are because we're the ones doing the dieing. We don't see the bigger picture.
sunnchilde 3 years ago
exactly
Bronasaxon 3 years ago
I agree with Sheridan and Delenn.
The Vorlons and Shadows have indeed degenerated into a couple of squabbling parents whether they meant to or not.
Both races have their faults to them. The Vorlons are hypocrites while the Shadows are warmongers.
Still, one must keep in kind that the two races actually believed in their respective ideologies, they just got overzealous with putting them into practice which of course, led to problems for the younger races.
girlgarde 3 years ago 6
Ideologies commonly have the flaw that they don't accept any other besides them. much like religion.
the key is to think and decide for oneself, but the vorlons and the shadows never let the younger races think and evolve for themselves. Perhaps they did when the first first ones went beyond, but at the time of bab 5, they had lost their way, just like Delenn said, and were so fixed on their respective ideology that they forgot about the respect for the other ones. understanding is a dialogue.
thedragon133 3 years ago 3
can u put all the episode on.. its the only one i havent seen and i cant find it anywhere T_T
darthkarr 4 years ago
I want see the next bit the part were thay apper in there true form
Shasui17 4 years ago
After watching this, I'd rather serve the Shadows then the Vorlons.
After all...
"What do you want?"
Bronasaxon 4 years ago
I like shadows more too. At least they're not hypocrites like the Vorlons.
gariadara 3 years ago
no, but they are warmongers. kill others and evolve. no coexistence or learning from others, just destruction.
the vorlons never forced wars (except against the shadows). they only sacrificed lifes if it was necessary (in their point of view).
thedragon133 3 years ago 3
I think I would side with Kosh, true he was a Vorlon, but even he was hesitant about the Vorlons getting involved with the Shadows. Besides. "Understanding is a three edged sword."
ambiancesb 3 years ago
i think kosh was a lot friendlier towards the younger races than the other vorlons.
he always tried to lead them to the truth, taught them how to fight legends, merged with sheridan. he perhaps, like lo rien, thought that their time in the galaxy was over and that they should move on, step aside.
thedragon133 3 years ago
Well, through the illusion of Sheridan's father, right before Kosh died, he said, when one gets old, one gets set in their ways, it was his time to go. you can expand that to the whole situation of the Vorlons and Shadows.
kuryamtl 3 years ago 3
The vorlons are the ones that forced the shadow's hands 1st. the vorlons started geneticly minipulating the younger races to favor them. (which is not playing by the rules of only guiding them). so the shadows struck directly at the vorlons and the vorlons are the one that dragged the younger races to fight for them. The vorlons sacrifice lives that are not their own. So in their mind everyone is expendable. Kosh was the 1st death since they could remember. which means its been a lonnnng time
Tearvon 2 years ago 29
I think the Thirdspace incident incited this whole mess. The Vorlons believed that by imposing order, limiting the development of species to a pace that was considered "safe", etc. that they could prevent the younger races from making the same mistakes they did. The Shadows, believing that evolution should be along natural lines, tried to keep the Vorlons from being successful by starting wars and forcing the younger races to advance in order to survive.
Fbueller129 2 years ago
The events that leadup to thridspace, the race at sigma957 warn them not to dig to deep in exploring the different lvls of space in this galaxy. when the vorlons let the 3rd space race into our world it took the combined effert of the other 1st ones "that were left" to send them back, and thats why most of the race don't like the vorlons. "they are extreamly arrogent". The shadows are the oldest of the 1st ones, but they have always pick fights with other races " but never killed them till now"
Tearvon 2 years ago
@Tearvon well, technically, Lorien is the oldest of the first ones.
Or he is a generation before the the First Ones, he does refer to them as his children. His race discovered them when the Shadows and Vorlons were infant races.
thedragon133 2 years ago
Have you even seen the movie-sode "Thirdspace"? If you had, then you wouldn't be saying this shit.
gribae 2 years ago
I did see Thirdspace. What I said is just my theory on the matter. If you look at the whole series there are things that don't make sense unless you take into account some kind of moderating factor. Hyperspace seems to be the only means of interstellar travel in the B5 universe. In Thirdspace, they discuss how all of the current major races, except Humans, discovered jump gates in their home systems, reversed engineered them and utilized them. Well who left them?
Fbueller129 1 year ago
The Shadows use a different means to enter and exit Hyperspace so it is unlikely that they left them. It does make some sense that the Vorlons left them so that all the races would be on the same playing field when it came to interstellar travel and prevented anyone from developing some other means that could potentially lead them to discoveries that could potential lead to another Thirdspace event. And why is there a lack of really advanced races in the B5 universe?
Fbueller129 1 year ago
@Fbueller129 because they all left..passing beyond the galaxys rim..the vorlons and shadows wwere left behind to "guard and shepard" the younger races, while i guess some of the other first ones stayed behind out of sentimental reasons, but chose not to interefere in the shadow/vorlon dispute over how to teach the next races to come
darthkarr 1 year ago
@Fbueller129 Who left the Jump gates? Well, perhaps Lorien's people? Lorien's people were first, the Shadows were next, then the other First Ones.
sunnchilde 9 months ago
@sunnchilde Originally when humans first went into space, they met the centauri which allowed them to do interstellar travel cheaply and quickly at the cost of a tax, eventually humans figured out how to build their own jump gates. and eventually jump drives for larger ships such as warships and large trading and mining vessels.
AmericanPoliceState 9 months ago
@sunnchilde nether lorien or the shadows require jumpgates, so the need came with vorlons.
nesteph 7 months ago
@nesteph The Shadows don't need Jump Gates NOW, because they're very old and very powerful. But I bet they used to, as did Lorien's people.
sunnchilde 7 months ago
@sunnchilde lorien is a ball of energy not a person, so were his people
nesteph 7 months ago
@nesteph Or maybe that happened later, they would not be the last race to 'ascend' to becoming energy beings. The Vorlons did it too, and we have seen humanity will as well in 1,000,000 years (which according to Lyta is also when humanity will be ready to be allowed into Vorlon Space). It looks like it could be a technological advancement rather than evolution (obviously if it was evolution, it would not apply to Lorien).
suchiuomizu 7 months ago
@Tearvon If the Vorlons manipulated the genetics of the younger races to favor them, then why is anyone supporting the Shadows since it would be genetically impossible for Clark to take the Shadows up on their offer, or Londo either.
I guess the Shadow War was just a silly little rumor.
Meyosan 1 year ago
Comment removed
Tearvon 1 year ago
@Tearvon I think it's funny how you think that I haven't seen the entire series despite the actual war going up until the sixth episode of the fourth season. Oh, and I checked some B5 reference sites, and none of them say that the Shadows were right under Lorien's race, and every one of them say that the Vorlons and the Shadows were among the oldest of the First Ones, so did you actually watch the series?
Meyosan 1 year ago
Comment removed
Tearvon 1 year ago
@Tearvon You forget the first shadow war... and there were probably a few more before that. It sounds like from the dialogue that both races may have been shepherds to other races that could have already gone beyond the rim. Remember, they are both millions of years old, so even if the shadow war was 1000 years ago thats only a blink of an eye for these two races.
Hecate1990 1 year ago
@Tearvon True, but the Shadows also manipulated the younger races with conspiracy and technology, so neither side really has the moral high ground. I do think the Vorlon philosophy is however more appealing to most civilizations, as prior to these events the Vorlons seem to have had somewhat good relations with younger races, in contrast to the Shadows and their servants which were viewed as boogymen.
ScutigeraColeoptrata 10 months ago 7
@ScutigeraColeoptrata That is true the Shadows did Manipulate the younger race with conspiracy and Techology, but shadows only tempt the younger race. The vorlons literally fucked with our minds. We view them as the boogyman because the vorlons has scard us into thinking they are like that. I mean the shadows only begin to move every 1000 years, you think the vorlons are going to just sit and wait while the shadows wake up. They are going to control us through fear.
Tearvon 10 months ago
@Tearvon The shadows do more than simply tempt though; they enslaved Centauri Prime and other worlds at gun point and deliberately created wars which caused the loss of billions of lives, a greater loss of life than the Vorlons even at their worst were ever responsible for. Granted, that probably would have changed after Kosh's death, since the Vorlons seemed all too eager to wipe out worlds after that point as a result of a radical shift in political philosophy towards open militarism.
ScutigeraColeoptrata 10 months ago
@ScutigeraColeoptrata The shadows didn't enslave Centauri prime, That was the price Centauri Prime payed in order to win the war against the Narns. And Molari was asked/tempted to sell out his race to them. Also the vorlons where the 1st ones to use their planet killers.
Tearvon 10 months ago
@Tearvon They asked at first, yes, but that changed into enslavement over time thanks to their minions, whom we can safely assume used Shadow tactics. Mr. Morden also 'carved up the universe' with Mollari, and given the Shadow's willingness to destroy entire colonies we can also assume that this was not simply posturing.
ScutigeraColeoptrata 10 months ago
@Tearvon
You're correct about the Vorlons using their planetkiller first. When Sheridan blasted Zha'ha'dum (sp?), the Vorlons saw an opening and took it. As Sheridan pointed out, they could have done the same thing to the Shadows' homeworld a long time a go but didn't. Both sides fought this war by proxy but the Shadows took a more hands on approach than the Vorlons.The Vorlons perferred to manipulate. Sinclair/Valen and Sheridan being their front men. Personally though, I favor the Vorlons.
shadowmancer122 7 months ago
@shadowmancer122 Agreed. Though the Vorlons did some shitty things throughout history, their ideas about order and peace and being part of a greater whole sound more ethical then the social darwinist crap that the Shadows put forth. Besides, the Shadows and their tech gives me the creeps, the Vorlons clearly didn't need to do much genetic manipulation to get us to hate the Shadows.....
girlgarde 7 months ago
@girlgarde Oh no. That's not the point at all. The Vorlons ideas 'sound' more ethical, but they were both wrong. It is not Chaos versus Order. It's not peace versus war. That's what they say it's about, but they both went to the extreme and that is why they were wrong. Both sides were hurting the younger races instead of helping.
SetsunaNoroi 7 months ago
@SetsunaNoroi I'm aware of that. Both the Vorlons and the Shadows forgot that they were promoting their ideas to guide the younger races but they became obsessed with besting each other so they did things that harmed everyone else. I'm merely saying that the message the Vorlons gave was more ethical even if the Vorlons themselves acted as badly as the Shadows did in their methods. In this case, the message isn't discredited because the messenger was an asshole.
girlgarde 7 months ago
@girlgarde Well, I suppose that comes down to opinion. Personally myself I think the Vorlons were the worse of the two (aside of course from Kosh who really seemed to care about the younger races). "Bow down and do what we tell you to do at all times like slaves." vs. helping along evolution by encouraging conflict. But that's just me spinning it so one side sounds better than the other. When both sides were hurting the younger races, it doesn't matter who 'sounded' more ethical.
SetsunaNoroi 7 months ago
@SetsunaNoroi Agreed. Both races were hurting the younger races with their stupid egos and desire to prove which of their ideals was superior. Still, I'd like to think that there were individuals amongst not just the Vorlons but the Shadows too who cared about the younger races and wanted the "my ideals are better then yours" crap to end but were blocked out by extremists who were obsessed with winning at all costs.
girlgarde 6 months ago
@girlgarde
The thing about the Shadows' ideals, and the Shadows themselves, is that the key to it lies in their own evolutionary history. You can see it just in their physical appearance alone, they're an insectoid race, and insects are incredibly brutal and creepy (from a common view on them) in comparison to other kinds of animals. So it makes sense that their ideals match that, progression through violence, evolution through conflict, survival of the fittest, etc. I like that about them. :]
InsurrectionistFungi 2 months ago
@InsurrectionistFungi I never said that the Shadows weren't cool, I'm merely saying that their appearance and ideals are creepy and hateful. Of course, that's what the writers were going for, they played on our disdain towards the lifestyle and appearance of insects to create a race that the audience would find sinister on numerous levels.
girlgarde 2 months ago
@InsurrectionistFungi For some reason though, I seem to think that since the Shadows are the polar opposite of the Vorlons, the Shadows just might be openly nurturing and caring towards their offspring and perhaps their servant races as well. In the B5 novels that cover Londo's time as Centauri Emperor, the Drakh who controlled Londo was nurturing to the keeper device that he had attached to Londo so perhaps the Shadows were the same way to the Drakh?
girlgarde 2 months ago
@girlgarde
That's an interesting thought! I don't think that the Shadows would've been as harsh on the Drakh after they became strong enough to serve them faithfully. The Vorlons did no such thing with the Minbari, they treated them almost the same, just "gracing" them with their presence. The Shadows seemed more nurturing with their philosophy. Allow your "children" to fight it out, evolve with conflict and war, and those who emerge from it are rewarded, and so on.
InsurrectionistFungi 2 months ago
@InsurrectionistFungi Yeah,i figured that it would make an interesting twist since it's shown that there are shades of grey amongst both the Vorlons AND the Shadows that the latter race would have SOME good things about them that punch holes in the "Shadows are evil incarnate" line of thought that the Vorlons put forth. I can even imagine the Shadows looking down on the Vorlons on how they treat their own servant races.
girlgarde 2 months ago
@girlgarde
Exactly, the Shadows weren't evil, and the Vorlons knew it full well. They became too wrapped up in ideology. It would've been interesting though, to see a Shadow representative who, like Kosh, actually cared about the younger races, or at least actually still cared about helping them grow. I think that may have been a missed opportunity, and it could've provided an interesting dynamic. :D
I think that the Shadows/Vorlons would've at least had a mutual respect for each other, though.
InsurrectionistFungi 2 months ago
@InsurrectionistFungi Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. It would have been very interesting to see a Shadow representative who cared about the younger races and wanted to help them evolve and grow. I can see him/her being openly caring and engaging in action to help end the Shadow Wars for good so the younger races could evolve and grow. If this rep survived the Shadow War though, I could even see him/her telling the Drakh that they had to leave but to continue their work in their place.......
girlgarde 2 months ago
@InsurrectionistFungi I agree with what you said the Shadows were not evil, just misguided like the Vorlons. They got too wrapped up in their own ideology, forgot that their purpose was to help the younger races.
jeffman52001 1 month ago
@jeffman52001
I think, that in their own way, the Shadows stayed more true to their ideology in the end. The Vorlons did too, but they just expected the younger races to stand by and do nothing, and be good little lapdogs or whatever. Or maybe I'm just overplaying the good of the Shadows and the bad of the Vorlons. :3
InsurrectionistFungi 1 month ago
@InsurrectionistFungi
Another good point. Yeah, that's what I liked so much about Babylon 5. In the end, neither the Shadows or the Vorlons could be defined as being "good" or "evil", but perhaps misguided.
I used to cheer a lot for the Vorlons in the series, until I found out that they destroyed an entire planet and killed so many people. I remember feeling quite disillusioned back then. They were nothing different from the Shadows. It was quite an amazing plottwist. :)
RockyH2 1 month ago
@RockyH2
For a while I was more behind the Vorlons than the Shadows, until after my second full sequential viewing of the series. I mean, I understood that neither side were good or evil, but yeah, I think people tend to get in line with the Vorlons because theirs seems less violent, until they bring out their guns.
But, it's awesome that B5 encourages actual thinking with it, instead of telling you "this person is right" or whatever. I have a sort of reluctant support of the Shadows' method.
InsurrectionistFungi 1 month ago
This clip shows both philosophies 'raw', without individual personalities tempering the ideas. Presumably the Shadows had members similar to Kosh who cared about the younger races and wanted to see fair competition between them, as opposed to the brutal oppression the Shadow War resulted in.
ScutigeraColeoptrata 10 months ago
@Tearvon To quote the epiphany of G'kar: Does it matter who started it, since in the end everything will be destryed until there are no more races?
brav0wing 10 months ago
@brav0wing That is true, what G'kar said, But the shadows never had any interest in fighting or killing the younger race, they didnt wipe out an entire race only because they didnt want to follow them. The vorlons always up the battle. they genetically made us favor them. they fucked with our minds and they destroyed entire worlds 1st.. And if there is no more races its because of the vorlons and not the shadows
Tearvon 10 months ago
@Tearvon I disagree!
When Sheridan went to Z'ha'dum, the shadows told him that their porpose was to create conflicts so the younger races would turn out better, like knocking down an ant hill. Some races would die in the process but the surviving ones would be stronger and much more evolved! That's why they were feared, because they created the conflicts, they started the wars!
In the last stages of the war, both the shadows and the vorlon ended up destrying entire planets!
brav0wing 10 months ago
@Tearvon But I agree with the fact that the vorlons fucked up with the younger races' minds in orther to respond favorably to them. That's why sheridan kicked them out of the galaxy, because both races failed in their task as shepards! They were like parents who would use theri children as weapons to gain an advantage! BOTH RACES MANIPULATED US!
As for me, I liked the shadows and the vorlons in equal measure!
brav0wing 10 months ago
@Tearvon we dont know who started what. but the vorlons as the shadows choose to usualy remain in the background and let the other races fight it off. and when the shadows manipulate others into conflicts who says the vorlons cant intervene and give them at least the weapons they need to win? > telepaths
chockn 5 months ago
@chockn actually they said it, the vorlons are the ones that started it 1st by using the younger race, bringing them into the war, and genetically manipulating them. which is againt the rule of only guiding them.
Tearvon 5 months ago
Curious, the woman incased in that barrier, was she is a disgusied representation of a character sheridan once knew, the shadows used masked representations of Delenn's friends to mainpulate her, so i was curious on who that woman was who reprsented the voice of the vorlons?
vega3000 4 years ago
Yes, the woman in the barrier was repersenting the Vorlons.
Bronasaxon 4 years ago