Added: 4 years ago
From: wonderingmind42
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  • im so depressed

  • I disagree with this man... because I am an idiot

  • Looks like we need another mass homicide ... -_-

  • OK I have no kids, what do I win?

  • @Sauciflash You could print off an award from the voluntary human extinction movement, no joke.

  • I understand the guy's concern; however there is a reason why he's a scientist and not an economist. We won't run out of oil; its impossible to. It's complete ignorance to price theory. The market will take care of our needs; we will find new resources and more efficient ways to use our resources. Technology and knowledge also grow at an exponential rate. As crazy as it sounds it's only a matter of time before we end up on other planets and moons.

  • @danterrell14

    "As crazy as it sounds it's only a matter of time before we end up on other planets and moons."

    It would would take 14 thousand earth years of 1% steady growth of mankind for number of man to be equal to number of estimated atoms in known universe. :))

    Obviously that cant happen. We would reach limit much,much sooner.

    Beside i would see other aliens species have a problem with us having disregard for such a basic natural law.

    In another words we are dangerous.

  • @danterrell14 And there's a reason you're an economist and not a scientist, covering your eyes and saying the market will take care of us is no more useful than praying that things will work themselves out somehow. Also, although I'm sure you know this, saying that its impossible to run out of oil is totally hilarious xD Don't worry guys our limited non-renewable resources are unlimited derp derp derp price theory the end.

  • We make da babies in Colorado, what can we say?

  • He fails to mentions that ''bacteria'' also die. So yes, you fill it up, but you also die, bacteria or humans. So it's not that simple as just double in numbers every minute, they also die, and they don't double, it's not exponential growth.

  • @janpetras22 2x growth and 1.01x growth are both exponential....

  • ... all time periodically is War...

    That is answer... (me from LV)

  • One smart man!

  • propoganda; this guy is paid off by the elite; population growth is no threat=every large country has huge open lands not in use; population causes pollution? really? what about all the hazardous chemicals the gov. overloads our communities with on a daily basis? the elite could care less aobut you-why they are worried about population growth is that they want to save the earths resources for THEIR future generations use-not the common mans use; the gov sees man as useless slaves;

  • @pugdogy did you just not listen to this? It's basic maths dude. To suggest he's 'paid off' when he's simply providing a factual, mathematical analysis of the situation is crazy. This applies to everything, including your superannuation savings. Try repeating one of his experiments with the chess board and you'll understand the concept a little better. Or you can believe aliens did it too.

  • @Swaggajackaaaaa illuminati missed a lot of classes but not this one

  • Bartlette, you have a bunker space under the new airport for when "nature" "solves

  • my theory is..as technology keeps improving the death rate will keep slowing down. In a few decades we might see the majority of people driving electric, combined with cleaner energy, will reduce pollution almost completely. New medical advances to prolong life. We got 2 options, either overpopulate this planet and build huge skyscraper apartments or migrate to another planet in 1,000 years

  • Wow. this man is amazing. I've never heard of him or seen him, but he brings amazing points about our soceity; the ideas he brings up with his arithmetic skills are very applicable in modern times as well.

  • There are many other variables that should help, if they were stimulated to grow exponencialy, like less consume, more education, more values... And only have children the persons who are prepared to have.

  • the goal for humans is find the ability to utilize outer space and colonize the moon and use the earth as our garden and livestock producers and then finally populate other habital planets through out the universe......................

  • the kidz look scared to death.........

  • he is just extrapolating data.....obviously his "extensive" mathematical studies failed to include statistics

  • Make the fallout games a reality!!!

  • the capitalistic system requeires % growth, that was meant when mentioning stable growth in Bolster. but we will run out of space if we keep % in the funadament of economics

  • Overpopulation is what happens when people are fruitful and multiply. People aren't interested in birth control because they think that a magical sky man has more real world authority than mathematics.

  • @teewilson333 machines like that won't need us at all....and if they are anything like their creators, they will kill us for fun and keep a few of us in cages for novelty.

  • If all the people in the world were put into Texas, we'd each have about 1,000 square feet. Before that doubled, there wouldn't be a trace of this old geezer's dna left in the universe.

  • .. Ashton Kutcher at 4:01?

  • We willl probably consume less space for social purposes as well as we're able to use virtual communication to fill that need. Arthur C Clarke saw this (1964) here: v=KT_8-pjuctM.

  • The other possibility is htat we won't even live in bodies.

    We will live on computers and live in bodies part-time.

  • He does make a good point though that we're living on a finite planet. We will inevitably change as a result. There's nothing that can be done to prevent the change. One way or another, we will either go up or we will go down (to support our population) and that will have implications.

  • So what happens when you have a huge elderly population and not enough of a younger population to pay the taxes to look after the elderly?

  • We need to stop looking at our finite planet and start looking at the infinite universe above us.

  • This guy is insane, first none of this is new information. He completely skips of the wage increases over time in order to accommodate the cost of living increase. I feel like this guy is a Hitler in the making, he basically is advocating the destroying of progress and healthcare and quality of air in order to curb the population problem. LMAO This guy is right out of the X-Files, absolutely insane. I bet he will develop some kind of virus that will kill people more called AIDS to the 25th power

  • The oil consumption is linear!!! Very interesting but if you are going to talk about math and educate people don't make mistakes while doing so! the average 7% is irrelevant if the function is linear Dumbass!!!

  • we are not bacteria in a bottle you sicko

  • @FreedomAtRisk We are animals

  • @1GTX1 whats your point? that we can't think for ourselves and must instead gobble up whatever these old coots want us to believe is objective science? like that there are too many of us on the planet? well, obviously there are not enough wise old academics, but i'm talking about the OTHER people, clearly there are too many of the commoners. never enough smart old eugenicist elites.

  • bloody malthusian theories!

    Populations regulate themselves. In Italy we simply stopped having babies! But now we have the problem of an ageing population...

  • @terrywoodinc Populations regulate themselves! Are you utterly nuts! We passed 7 billion about a few months ago!

  • Ashton Kutcher at 4:00 !

  • This guy's comparing us to bacteria, and that "doubling" growth for bacteria is only possible given enough resources to sustain it, which people in Uganda or elsewhere do not have, so what happens? they starve to death. Nature knows how to deal with this, let's leave nature alone in this aspect, this guy's just senile.

  • Average birth rates in sub-Saharan Africa are enormous. In Uganda alone, I think it's around ten or eleven per a birthing machine. None of these birth factories are 'sustainable' on their own, none of them even remotely interested in birth control methods. What do do?

  • for populations to increase every generation replacement rate needs to be at double. two kids for two parents. its simple. over history our population has dwindled down to grow by a 5th a fucking 5th. its the UN's own number that show we are to maximum around 2025, and then tanker off decreasing in population.by the way the UN is the same place where UNESCO was created...a committee saying population was a problem...whats with the UN's paradox..EUGENICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Let's take a consideration of the last generation of bateria before noon. He askes, at what point would you notice a problem? HELLO! The final five minutes tell it plainly. If at 11:59, the problem can be solved, then what's the problem? 11:58, 11:59, these are the times where it's getting to crowded to fuck. Seriously. This guy was raised under an era of eugenics and he's taken his cue to try and pass it on to us now. Population is people, not specimens.

  • wait... we send more birth control to third world countries where popluations are far more stable than one city in our own country? where the availability to birth control is a debated issue? what the fuck man... we're screwed.

  • Comment removed

  • I love how people speak.. and have NO idea what they are talking about.

    Next time.. do some research and maybe actually provide a source ( an expert) Thank you very much.

  • Well keep the people stupid i guess...

  • I don't know if I can watch the rest of this. Not because I don't understand or that I don't want to watch, but the fact that it reinforces that I know I'm going to die before I'd like to.

  • Ad bacteria: if the growth conditions are optimal, an 'average' lab strain of wt E. coli doubles in about 20 minutes, not one minute (and yes, I get it, it is an example). And, like microbiology students do, study the 'generic' microbial growth curve with its lag, log (or exp), equilibrium and death phases.

  • I kinda wish youtube had more videos like this and less crap on it

  • ey frisky and outgoing girl who wants to have fun

  • as afshin rattansi observed in his last edition of "double standards", the entire population of the planet, 7B, would fit in the former yougoslavia, with a population density on par with manhattan.

    while population growth is a concern, it's how we live that will determine our survival. future generations will not look favorably on our "stewardship".

  • @mispistoleros I agree 100% if we all want to live the lifestyle of current world degenerates such as maddona or paris hilton put simply there is not enough lear jets for everybody.... we need to redistrubute the wealth and get rid of greedy scum of this earth who is grabbing more then they need and what they do not use they throw away while people die of starvation. Our oceans have enough space and potential to feed 700 BILLION people let alone 7 billion. There is just no interest in reaseach.

  • When you look at the sidebar it's little wonder why the views are going down.

  • maybe he can put people to rest when they are old or weakened .... based on his module of course

    I believe hitler , stalin, mao, suharto, pol pot did that already

  • Anynone else having a problem with the video's coupled to the suggestions? Because i'm starting to see that 7% per video of the viewers decrease here and increase to "those" subjects. Could just be me though.

  • I live in one of the most crowded cities in the world. I painfully remember Bartlett's words everyday as I am often ejected from the subway wagons because of the sheer flux of people disordely trying to get inside. It's hell. People just need to stop breeding so damn much. Maybe I should change my grad to rocket science studies so I can build something to just get the hell out of this chaotic lump of dirt!

  • @HomingMissiles oh but you cant tell them not to breed that their right!! their god given right!. ie:I know what your saying....

  • @wildwindsca

    I'm not saying people should die childless. All I am saying is that people need to think about what actually means to have children and raise them properly. Perhaps it's not really a big concern in really educated and well developed societies, but, trust me, I know of people who already have 3-4 children by the age of 20. It's irresponsible. A horrible abuse of their "god given right".

  • @HomingMissiles Do the world that favor. every life is precious, when we lose sight of this we die as a people.

  • @justin4549

    When have I said that life is not precious? It's actually quite the opposite, though I admit I did not make this really obvious in my original post. So let me rectify: All I'm saying is that people need to put some thinking into the process of conception and of what it takes to raise children PROPERLY, because a overcrowded world is not one that would particularly understand human life as valuable (as Asimov brilliantly put in his bathroom metaphor).

  • @HomingMissiles I am affraid that forces who rule this world are slowely trying to rationalise that we need to cut the human population. I do not like where this is going. There is such a massive inequality in recources of peoples on this world that its sickening. New world order dogs are planing to cut world popultion by about 5 billion by causing world war three which is its final stages of prepartaion. They will turn us into chipped animals very soon.

  • @HomingMissiles you realize thats not an overpopulation problem, its a civic planning problem...!  fucking hater

  • @HomingMissiles

    Maybe you should kill yourself to make more room for me and others.

  • Interesting and where is this in today's dialogue? Politicians don't like this, because the bacteria vote : ) Now throw in the 1% sucking up the last of the resources. The bacteria bottle is an excellent analogy. Maybe the 1% see "it" coming and want to make sure they have most of the resources. Wow!

  • 4:34 he really nailed that one!

  • This inst going to be a problem in a 20 years.....Once technological unemployment runs rampant because corporations have to compete and machines are way more productive. Money will disappear and the entire way we conduct our lives will change. Goodby to greed, national arrogance, political corruption, inefficiency, racial animosity all that crap we took as normal. Analytic and scientific persons capable of solving problems unlike politicians will govern.(Just a prediction)

  • @teewilson333 Technological unemployment?!? Absolutely ridiculous! Technology frees up labor and resources to be better used where they are needed more. Work your claim back to its logical conclusion. Would we have more employment, cheaper, and better houses if we used hammers instead of nail guns...rocks instead of hammers...bare hands instead of rocks? There will ALWAYS be money (not fiat currency like US dollars) How would you allocate the worlds resources without money?

  • @maverick18436572 Declare all the earths resources the common heritage of all the earth's people. How will there be money once labor is inevitably automated because of competition? Give money from birth to death? Put op a law against automating labor? Just get rid of money! Once labor is automated we will ALL SUFFER living in anarchy until we finally demand a new system. I can lay out a much more intricate direction in a private message if you would like.

  • @teewilson333 You think the few "smart" people in this world will take over the majority. I think Hawkings prediction is better, if we don't get our eggs out of the basket, we will simply end up like the 99% of species on this planet.

  • @architect333 I could farther elaborate in a private message if you like but this is far from what im saying. All i can say in this small paragraph is that technology can be used for the betterment of man not "taking over". Our elected "smart people"....will have a computer that monitors the agricultural area for nutrient and water level's and pumps in whats necessary to raise or sustain the agricultural yield to fight hunger. No "taking over" i can elaborate much more in a PM.

  • @teewilson33 This is already starting to happen. It will be less than 20 years. Amazon, Facebook, and Apple have a meager 150k total workforce. Foxconn has 10k robots as of now, and are planning to increase that number to 30k by the end of this year, and eventually, by the end of 2014 they will have 1 million robots! This is a trend that's with one company. I think it's safe to say that several other companies will catch on and adopt this trend as well.

  • @esca8652 "Ultimate automation…will make our modern industry as primitive and outdated as the stone age man looks to us today."- Albert Einstein

  • @teewilson333 I forgot to give you the source. Look up 'Why it's time to worry about rise of the android workers'.

  • @esca8652 I worry about it because of the anarchy witch will happen during the transition from our present system to a system without labor and goods distributed via machine. It will be like a computer on the wall that delivers the goods you want free of cost. But i also cannot wait for the transition...people conditioned in this manor will not behave in a acquisitive or greedy way nor will there be crime or archaic systems of cops, courts and judges.

  • im all for war and murder

  • As regards efficient land use I am in favour of introducing landvaluetaxation first proposed by another man of the west, Henry George. George strongly disagreed with Malthus and given that populations do stabilise as they get richer has been shown to be right. US population growth is driven largely by immigration rather than birthrate, and as far as that goes the US has a long way to go before it is even nearly as crowed as say, Europe or China.

  • I am persuaded that it is the financial system that forces our addiction to economic growth and so drives the whole process. Ideas for fixing that are to remove Fractional Reserve Banking. See positivemoney org (UK) or themoneymasters (not sure if org or com or what) for the US.

  • Or, that new technology will help. The fuel cell may yet get better and cheaper. Maybe cold fusion will finally work.

  • But, he discounts the probability that the world population will stabilise, they say, at 10-11bn.

  • Saw all 8. no problem with the arithmetic.

  • OK that worked - will try to delete my try outs now it works.

  • Seem to be having the same trouble posting as I did a week or two back lets see.

  • sdffsdafsdfsddsa

  • czxcxzczxc

  • " 7 Billionth Person born at 2 minutes till midnight on 10-30-2011" AP news

    Strange connection to this video? watch for 10 minutes to see....

  • Dr. Albert A. Bartlett makes the 'commandments' of The Georgia Guidestones sound like great ideas. Hmmm, Now I must go to my quiet place and re-evaluate everything I once thought was true.. Again..

  • So we may be sitting on a ton of resources that we don't yet know we have. Resources that will end our dependence on oil and other fossil fuels. Until such a new resource is found, the price of oil will continue to go up, which will itself cause consumption to reduce. Similarly, the price of land and other resources will rise too, reducing consumption there..

  • And the costs of resources are bound to go up, if the resources are finite and demand steadily increases. So we can expect prices for things like real estate, oil, etc. to rise rapidly in the future.

    Another assumption is that no new technological advances will be made that will help utilize the resources we already have. The uses of crude and petroleum were discovered only recently, until then these were not really resources, but just 'junk' lying around our planet.

  • The assumption that the rate of growth will remain constant is key in this series. But as it becomes less viable to sustain the current rate of growth, this rate will drop naturally anyway.. think about it. If housing, educating, providing medical care, food, clothing etc. to your kids is going to cost you more than you can afford, you'll probably choose to have just 1 kid and live comfortably than having 2 or more kids and struggling to make ends meet.

  • It is wrong to compare our growth to bacteria because only females can produce children. That's only one error he made. Isn't that obvious?

  • @NUMBER4940s Don't forget that in some families specially in developing countries a family has above six kids!

  • @hyperstone6 Yes, but those have a carbon footprint almost zero. They are below average, so if for example 1 person consume 1 l of oil, it means 8 (mother, father + 6 kids) * 1 = 8 liters / day. While an american with 1 kids that consumes 8 liters per day means 3 (mother, father, kid) * 8 = 24 liters / day. This is the difference, americans consume too much. (cars, trucks etc.). In third world countries do not have so many vehicles.

    Got it?

  • @cristiroma Well ya..... you have a point, but the topic was exponential growth in number of humans and not the amount of resources consumed per capita, I guess.

  • @NUMBER4940s LOL! Doesn't matter, it will he only the half growth, but still grows exponentially.

  • @NUMBER4940s A growth rate has nothing to do with females or males, it is a percentage and as long as the percentage is the same, you can compare bacteria, humans, insects, whatever regardless of the method of procreation.

  • @ppeters77 The comparison is not wrong because he compares our general population with that of bacteria. He would only be correct if he compared our population of females that can and do have children that survive a reasonable length of time. Also, he confuses things by comparing 1 minute to the entire decade of human population doubling. The viewer is left confused, figuring at any minute the world will be overfilled. It takes at least 10 years, per his statistics.

  • Never knew i will be more happy to know that Sweden just got 9million people.. And growing SLOWLY..

  • Growth control is NOT unpopular. Someone ELSE making the CHOICE, and NOT choosing YOU for survival... THAT is what’s unpopular! ^^

    Because everybody will choose himself, and everybody will choose his peers. Obviously. And since those conflict, there will be war. Plain...and...simple. (Except for the passive cattle that make up >70% of the population, who have no free will but accept whatever their opinion makers tell them. Which means they will of course support them.)

  • pre-suck my general situation :D

  • oh my days, this guy has got it all worked out, im continually agreeing with what he's saying but would find it very difficult to explain it, as quicklu as he does, especially to put it as simple as he does!

  • Were doomed and this man is lucky enough to die while he can still feed himself....poor me only 19 and I have to deal with this crap for my whole life...believe me things will change monumentally in the next 40-50 years.

  • @afro20man exactly what I keep saying for a couple of years now, worst times to be alive and it's only getting worse

  • Human infestation...

  • @rboos Earth's Human infestation

  • @ 4:30 Dr. Barlett blows everyones mind... w0w crazy stuff to think about

  • They don't care about us, they just need a troll you to bother about!

  • I'm on part 3 I can make it.

  • I think it's fucking awesome that dudes from Arabia are commenting on this. It's were all connected as human beings watching important videos! Hope Yemen resolves its conflict, I live in Mexico so I have an idea of how it's like. But anyway, good luck guys!

  • @HipHopLived

    HipHop, it's a sign that things are getting worse. Well, not that they're worse, just that they're getting noticed more. You see, the system has always been flawed, it's taken some cancer growth for it to be noticed. Now humanity is starting to wake and come together...to start to find solutions.

  • sounds like population reduction endorsement to me. congratulations you miserable old fuck. How would you suggest killing us of?

  • I find it funny that the first video had tons of views and as you keep watching, it goes down. I guess people don't get it

  • @MultiMicrodot Well, it seems his popularity decreased EXPONENTIALLY. Arithmetics go both ways I think.

  • @MultiMicrodot I'd say most were distracted and drawn away by the "I dare you not to watch" video on the right lol.

  • @MultiMicrodot On the bright side, people's lack of attention span makes it easier to find the next section of the video. You don't have to mouse over to see the end of the title, you can just follow the descending number of views.

  • Comment removed

  • @MultiMicrodot it's a long watch...and there's no blood, boobs or explosions.....that fills at least an hour and a half.

  • exponential growth is scary....but there are many external influences and cause & effect factors outside the petri dish of theory. I agree with him, and hope he is wrong about the state of policy & policy makers IN THE FUTURE, but as of today, more of the same greedy idiots in control still.... : (

  • @MultiMicrodot yeah, that's what usually happens in multi-part videos. That's why the troglodyte comments usually go down :)

  • @MultiMicrodot

    I think, people are just scared to death.

  • @MultiMicrodot I guess it's the half-naked chick in related videos and the fact that the geezer is sort of beating a dead horse.

  • mmh sharing fantasies and if possible put them into practice

  • Sometimes I write things down on paper and I don't even understand the meaning of the words that I'm putting down. I feel so stupid....

  • There is really no reason to put another child on this world today... Infact there are more reasons not to.

  • Judging by this video, it's easy to see why we are so much poorer than we were in 1970! Our 7% growth per year of oil consumption was drastically reduced. Everyone thinks it was this policy or that policy, this politician or that politician, but what it REALLY was is geology and basic math!

  • Companies want to save money at the expence of human health and wellbeing of the planet. Humans are mindless sheep following the companies.

  • What you see going on here isn't education its indoctrination. I'm glad this guy isn't my doctor and I hope he isn't indoctrinating doctors and health professionals.

  • @ standubie. you are right it would be like a prison city. i in no way that would be a good idea. i just used that as an example of how much space there is in the planet. sometimes, because we have been put into population clusters known as cities we often feel that there are way to many people, the opposite is true. there is alot of unused space with plenty of resource that are not being properly distributed and a whole bunch of surpressed technology that would fix these problems.

  • its ok the united states will blow something else like they did the world trade center

  • @pimppappi702 Idiot.

  • THIS IS A GREAT EXPLANATION OF WHAT'S HAPPENING AND WHY GOVERNMENTS WANT US TO DIE!

  • This man is amazing, I cant see anyone would dislike this!!

  • the whole population of the earth fits in texas. not only do we all fit in texas but each man woman and child could have something like 1500 square feet on a horizontal layout. that means that a family of three could have 4500 to build a house and the rest of the world could be used to feed all of those people. stop falling for all this population reduction agenda. they only want to kill people. 

  • @victorkyoshi Don't overlook resource requirements, all those people need an infrastructure. They still require food, water, sanitation, civil services, homes, healthcare etc. and as lifeforms consume more in resources than they produce.

    If you ignore resource requirements you have just one huge refugee camp and population reduction is the very thing you'll end up having.

  • the exponential model is under perfect conditions. the logistic model runs under a more credible curve getting to a saturation point tending to 0 growth factor.

  • Thanks for uploading, this is brilliant. I wish every person on earth could sit down and watch it and then realise that we all need to change something before its one minutes before midnight.

  • This is the most intelligent thing I've ever heard-

  • Damn stupid flat earth liberals...

  • germany has minus growth rate.

    help the poor people, and we act humane as the wester countries pride themselves with and the problem is no longer a problem

  • @timsum01 Manly love will save this planet! Can I have a hug?

  • 4:01 Ashton Kutcher took a Arithmetic class.

  • @jhhazed Agreed, we need to reduce our population. Liberals should kill themselves first.

  • @Paladine71 -

    global one child policy would get the population down in line with oil production.

  • @walter0bz I like the fact that my kids have siblings, and so did I. Feel free to not reproduce (especially if you believe that government has the right to dictate our reproduction) but stay out of my life with your laws. Walking into my house and telling me how to live is a good way to reach room temperature.

  • @Paladine71 -

    not a case of govt, case of us educating eachother.

    without global one child policy or 'voluntary one child' we face devastating wars. perhaps your such a hardcore darwinist that you like that prospect. Maybe the NWO will out-evolve you with a first strike

  • @walter0bz I don't remember mentioning my belief or disbelief in evolution. An NWO first strike is exactly where support of this policy is headed. I'm a student of history and know full well that they take small steps to control the numbers of us "undesirables." They will try "policies" and "education," both only in line with what they believe. And when those fail, they will do what Communists always do, mass murder. Ever notice that the ruling elite are always exempt from these policies?

  • @Paladine71 -

    well from your avatar with a gun, some rhetoric I'm reading, + belief in high population growth I assume that you are toward the extreme end of social darwinists, i.e. STEP1:'breed lots of soldiers' STEP2: when you run out of land to feed them, take more by force, depopulating rival regions.

    r.e. NWO, 'Ruling Elite' is simply someone else applying this principle better than you, but more "K-strategist" than "R-strategist".

  • @walter0bz So you make hasty judgments and assume a lot. Has that served you well in the past? I enjoy shooting sports but that is a far cry for wanting to attack my neighbors in all directions. I also believe in my right to protect my family. I also believe in freedom, especially from an oppressive government that thinks that it has the right to tell me how to live, how to breed, and what I can own. I am an enemy to Socialists and Communists and just want people to leave me alone. Simple.

  • @Paladine71 -

    I'm begining to generalize, yes. There's a certain set of americans that start spouting about Communists (they assume they are talking to one as soon as they hear 'one child policy'). And from your statement "belief or disbelief in evolution" I wonder, are you one of those chaps who beleives the earth is 6000 years old, and that there's no need for pop control because the Rapture is due in 2013 , you'll just all go to heaven anyway?

  • @walter0bz There is nothing biblical about the Rapture, that sounds like someone's misinterpretation of the verse. I do believe in God, but think that it's foolish of mankind to think that we can understand God or date the earth. Hence, I do not believe in carbon dating either. Evolution/Atheism is a non-proven belief system, just as religion is. Both sides will cite things that they think is right, but no one can prove either way. Communists are real, however, and have murdered millions.

  • @Paladine71 -

    rapture, i had to check :)

    I think all systems murdered millions at some point.

    evolution denier- i'd have more respect for the view that god set up the universe. i can't remember the jargon. evolution has many indicators that make it very likely, e.g. the similarity between many creatures. blood osmotic pressure/placenta environment similar to sea-water, because our ancestors were in the sea.

  • @walter0bz Personally, I believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, but I do not rule out evolving life as a possible method. I do not think that God and Science are opposed, science is just our feeble attempt to understand God and it's ways. I don't deny the limitation of resources, I think that a way through will always present itself as part of God's plan. Fossil fuels are the way for now. Something else may be the way later. We tend to think in such short terms.

  • @Paladine71 -

    you possibly can guess my worldview/retorts -

    i disagree with the anthropocentrism: God is our attempt to anthropomorphise natural processes (what we observe in science). nature's 'plan' can include exterminating us if we don't fit symbiotically. re. fossil fuels/now-later, rather than 'cheap/expensive' use language of 'abundance' - after oil will energy be more abundant, or more scarce? why did we choose it over alternatives. its us 'eco-wackos' who think in *long* terms.

  • @walter0bz And that's certainly your right. I won't tell you what to believe, just as I will not tolerate anyone, or government, telling me what to believe. My faith is not without works. Technological advances are our discoveries of what already is. We have to work for them, they do not often fall from heaven, so to speak. Our pain is necessary to motivate us to improve. Do I think that the population is growing too fast, yes. Do I think that we should kill off, or sterilize people, no.

  • @Paladine71 -

    IMO, we've got a much bigger chance of preserving our knowledge and civilization with a 1cp- 1cp will maximize the number of humans that exist far into the future. continuing as we are will cause crash and back to the dark ages

  • @walter0bz The problem with a policy like this is that it is never fairly and evenly followed. It usually only applies to the peasant class, while the ruling elites (politicians, bankers, etc.) are exempt and may have whatever they wish. Look to China for a clear example of this. Law is simply the will of those that hold power. You must follow it or they will send men with guns to put you in a cage or kill you. They may do as they like, however.

  • @Paladine71 -

    where I find myself disagreeing most with peeps who talk as you seem to: you appear to think Social System is more important than tech and resources. Our imminent catastrophe can be predicted by looking at how industrial civilization evolved, around 1 main resource. Simple laws of physics i.e. Entropy make it easy for me to beleive Energy limits life. (complexity requires continual energy input to maintain). social sys is arbitrary, can't argue with nature.

  • @Paladine71

    >>" think that it's foolish of mankind to think that we can understand God or date the earth. Hence, I do not believe in carbon dating either. "

    - can I infer then that you're not ruling out that earth is 6000 years old, i.e. you're skeptical about scientists who claim its' 4billion. And in turn are you skeptical that oil is 'fossil-fuel'. do you beleive oil is continually renewed "abiotically'. or that God made enough oil :)

  • @walter0bz Who knows how old the earth is? I am not arrogant enough to think that I do. Some count the years of people's lives in the old testament to come to the 6,000 number, they might be right, but who knows for sure? Books may be missing, or the story broken. Equally foolish are people that think they can exactly measure the age of things using carbon dating. That method may become very inaccuate over thousands of years? "Scientists" seem very closed minded, instead of observant.

  • @Paladine71 -

    agree some approach science like a religion, not good. re age of earth/carbondating / 'geological timescales', i find it easy to believe generative processes shaped the world, and too many parts of the 'story' fit together for it to be wildly inaccurate. eg fossils... god covering tracks ?:) i know there are serious unanswered questions r.e. big scale cosmology though ... (dark matter fudge factor)

  • @walter0bz Religion is simply belief in something beyond yourself. It is only a bad thing when used in a harmful way or when falsified by inserting one's own opinions and ignoring facts. A classic example is "global warming." That is not science, that is a religion based on skewed "facts" and political motives. A great many people are getting very wealthy by conning people's money based on fear and propaganda. Please explain to me how "generative processes" cannot be God.

  • @Paladine71

    >>"Please explain to me how "generative processes" cannot be God."

    - i mentioned how the closest i could get to any sense of god is pantheism. the universe around you is a giant information processing engine. the laws of nature produce many 'generative processes' from which all the complexity emerges. For an atheist who beleives in no 'soul', that must come from the information flow in neurons in your head. so where did it start? brain? neurons?cell? maybe a its a continuum.

  • @Paladine71

    >>'Please explain to me how "generative processes" cannot be God."

    [cont] - so if you want to see the 'mind of god', its' tangible, in the complexity around you. and humans are wiping it out! humans will survive just fine with a population cap of 2billion. right now in 'the ascent of complexity' we're taking nature backwards. 2billion humans could let nature keep going and make their own progress just fine

  • @Paladine71 -

    i do agree MMGW is presented like religion,(carbon tax=tythe, c02=original sin, 'we hold key to salvation'..) however:-

    [1] it's moot, Peak Oil is more serious,more likely and similar solution.

    [2] its a reasonable guess that we're destroying *something* be it acid rain, global warming,global dimming since we made a massive change suddenly (like meteor impact or supervolcano) and we can choose not to. complex sys needs time to re-balance. like check-in to huge software project ?