first of all noboby know if heaven exist!couse nobody turn buck to say!second if i go in heaven of christians,i also have to go in hell of all the ather relligion!third what makes you feel that humans are inteligent?!we destroy the earth the animals,our home!and our selfs!why someone want to suicid is an inteligent!thers nothink special with human kind!and god know this!we just afraid to died and we have a syndrome of complex of who we are!
For you, what would you say is the underlying, most basic entity that drives your every decision in life? What is foundational in helping you make decisions? What is the chief end for you and your life when the rubber meets road?
1. Is it the pursuit of pleasure?
2. The pursuit of money?
3. The will to be more famous?
4. To appear smarter?
5. To have better and better sex?
These are pointless and will amount to nothing in the grand scheme. Sad..
"For you, what would you say is the underlying, most basic entity that drives your every decision in life?"
I would be that "entity".. I use critical thinking and logic.. I try not to do harm to others, because I know it is best for me, and because I know that I am related to every living creature on this Earth.
I am not good because I fear God.. I am Good, because I fear a planet who sees no intrinsic value in Good.. And doesn't understand the stupidity in Violence.
You know Hitler was a strict evolutionist who was simply trying to speed up human evolution through extermination of what he deemed genetically weaker subhumans. The Neonazi groups would love to do the same to blacks. All in the name of Evolution. I have to give it to him, when you "worship" at the temple of a godless science, this is carrying it out to its logical end. Survival of the fittest! Might makes right baby! That is how it works in the animal kingdom. Hitler felt we were stunting evo.
[part 3] As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice....
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people...." - Adolf Hitler
[part 2] "In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross."
[part 1] "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter....
Even a superficial glance is sufficient to show that all the innumerable forms in which the life-urge of Nature manifests itself are subject to a fundamental law one may call it an iron law of Nature which compels the various species to keep within the definite limits of their own life-forms when propagating and multiplying their kind. Each animal mates only with one of its own species. The titmouse cohabits only with the titmouse, the finch with the finch etc.. -Adolf Hitler,Mein Kampf
It's completely stupid when u call someone a christian just because they say they are!! Read the Bible first..ask what does the bible say is really a true Christian not foolishly believe when someone else who doesnt know the what the bible teaches on being a true christian is...so sad.
Socjlm, Hitler was a Roman Catholic and never renounced his faith.. He spoke openly about being Christian and the role God had in his decision making..
What is really sad is your argument.. That Hitler should not be considered a Christian, because he was a bad guy.. And I guess Usama should not be considered a Muslim either..
If calling yourself a Christian, and quoting the Bible during his speeches is not enough, what would be proof for you? I'll be happy to send it your way..
Gabriel, Hitler professed to be Christian but his philosophies were not what the bible teaches. That is my point. For example, Jesus's disciples were Jewish and He loved them! People can use the bible but not always do they understand the meaning of the text. Some pastors and proffessors twist passages to fit their philosophies. Not teaching truth but what they think is biblical truth.
"People can use the bible but not always do they understand the meaning of the text. Some pastors and proffessors twist passages to fit their philosophies. Not teaching truth but what they think is biblical truth."
Well isn't that convenient for you... Anyone who does anything wrong is automatically not a christian, and therefore Christianity can not be blamed for anything.. I suppose the Catholic church's silence during the holocaust proves that the Christian church is not Christian either.
"Anyone who does anything wrong is automatically not a christian"-- LOL...you just did exactly what I said people do with the Bible. You just misinterpreted me to suit your arguments.
The Bible says all are sinners including Christians therefore Christians do wrong things. But it also says that a real Christian grows in holiness or doing good things...did Hitler grow in holiness? I think not! We always sin here and there but I would suspect if commited crimes such as murder.
"But it also says that a real Christian grows in holiness or doing good things"
Right there is exactly my point, and I made it clear. That quote makes anyone who does not do good a non-christian, by your definition. What you are saying is that anyone who does bad things, should not be considered a Christian.
Who are you to redefine anyones faith?? Are you Going to say that Bush is not a Christian because he has done harm to this world. That is just a cheap trick to avoid responsibility.
"That quote makes anyone who does not do good a non-christian, by your definition."
Not my definition, but the Bible's. It contains the profile of how a real Christian behaves. Christ defined that word not I. If you dont like it you have problems in your thinking. Anyway King David, in Old Testament, was a real servant of God, yet he commited Adultery and murder ONCE not always or as a habit. He repented! I doubt Hitler ever repented! I never said Christians cant do evil.
Being "The Bible's definition" only makes it worse.. It is still just a cheap trick for Christians to avoid the consequences of their religion..
Hitler called himself a Christian, he spoke as a Christian, he believed as a Christian.. And by attacking the Jews, he believed he was acting as a Christian..
And you still maintain that anyone who has done wrong is not a Christian, and so the Christians should never be blamed for anything.. Were the crusaders Christians? or the Puritans?
The only reason you think that certain God-given laws and their respective punishments are silly, or backwards is that you claim to be the all-wise. If a death penalty keeps people from committing adultery, which I believe is a direct sin against God, why not? If it cut this sin by 95%, that would be great for our society. But you would cry that this was not a just punishment because you see nothing wrong with it and probably are part of our culture's problem. Adultery is killing families today.
Wow, jnana123.. Someone must have broken your heart... I absolutely do not believe in the death penalty for adulterers.. You realize you would be killing hundreds of thousands of people..
People would not stand for Friends and family members being killed for adultery.. Mass execution would cause civil unrest, and complete rejection of the Christian faith.
In a world where you could be killed for the slightest infraction.. Sounds even worse than Orwell's "1984", or Nazi Germany.
People can be executed in many countries such as China and Iraq for many different crimes. And guess what genius??? The crime rate for these crimes there are a mere fraction of what they are in this liberal country. When I tell my students they will be expelled if they get csught cheating, guess what, the cheating vanishes. You are a moron if you think that millions would go on having affairs if punishable by death. People have free will and self control you know.
Those are antiquated and have been replaced. Study the Bible and you will know that the ceremonial Jewish Law is no longer practiced. No I am saying just make punishments stricter and you won't have more people being murdured in Chicago every year than people killed in Iraq. Morons know this.
[part 1] Jnana123, funny how you're willing to scrap pretty much the whole Bible when it's contents are actually put in front of your face.. Sounds like a whole lot of moral relativism to me..
For a whole lot of people Deuteronomy and Leviticus are still the word of God, and in a theocratic dictatorship, would be used to justify the kind of mass executions you were talking about..
YOU are a prefect example of why so many people consider blind faith so dangerous.. [continued..]
The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger. The only difference that can exist within the species must be in the various degrees of structural strength and active power, in the intelligence, efficiency, endurance, etc., with which the individual specimens are endowed. It would be impossible to find a fox which has a kindly and protective disposition towards geese.... - Hitler
XarisGuitars, if you want to put your faith in an imaginary friend, than feel free, but don't expect me to patronize you like your parents did, with you first imaginary friend.
I don't put my faith in an imaginary friend. You sure know how to spin things to make them look bad. My guess is that you'll continue that path in life, much to your later disappointment.
Gabriel, how do you explain the existence of life, which even by the admission of atheistic biochemists, seems staggeringly unlikely to have jumped from inorganic material to even the simplest proteins which are the building blocks for life. Atheistic mathematicians who have studied this probability put the odds at 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 that it could have happened by the means of time and chance. I'm sorry, but it smacks of a grand designer.
continued- Atheists say "well, odds be damned, we have no choice but to say we simply hit the jackpot. That takes much more faith to believe in that craziness.
When we see elements of design in this world, we assume an intelligence was behind it. Even if you don't believe in the God of the Bible, you must admit that this is a defensible position. Thousands of scientists of yesterday and today have said that there appears to be a super-intellect that finely tuned it all. To still deny God with all the visible evidence of His Creation is borne out of a deep desire to be your one's own God, which is borne out of a deep seeded jealousy for His throne.
The problem that the non-religious person has, is not that he is jealous of God, or trying to justify sin. the problem is, every time he enters into a debate he is responsible for giving the other end lessons.. In History, Chemistry, Biology, Archeology, often Theology and even basic logic. (Here, in less than 500 characters) When all the other side needs to do is say "God did it"
That argument will cause the religious mind to atrophy, and stops substantive conversation in its tracks.
As far as either God or nature being eternal, I will take God. Who would you say created matter? If you say it was eternal, the second law of thermodynamics destroys that position. Whatever the case, when you get to this point, you are dealing in the realm of metaphysics, something science cannot speak to, nor wants to. This is why ultimately, science will never answer all the big questions that tug at the human soul. Issues or ultimate purpose, free will, universal morality, good & evil.
You are hiding behind the God of the Gaps.. Where ever there is something that has not been explained fully, you say "God is the only answer".. Before it was the Sun, and the weather, than the creation of the earth and other planets.. Than the origin of life, and causes of disease.. The God of the gaps is getting smaller... And throughout history religion has been asking "Who and Why" instead of "How and what".. You'll never find the right answers, if you're not asking the right questions..
3. Murder, rape, theft, lying, etc, all are universally seen as harmful to man.
Can't you see that all of these laws and commands, when followed, lead to a better, more peaceful life? There is much intrinsic benefit in being doing these things. God is not an idiot! Even taking one day in seven to rest has been found to increase worker productivity. Studies have shown that employees need this regular rest. But we moderns in our pride have shunned much of these to our demise.
All you are saying is that avoiding immoral behavior is the best means of self preseravtion.. This is exactly the evolutionry explanation for morality.. Not God, not "Do it because god says so" It's "I have better be good, cause I dont want to get hurt"
You dont need God to be moral.. You also dont need to be stoned to death for working on Sunday.. Or mixing cotton with wool.. We could do much better than the bible.
"You also dont need to be stoned to death for working on Sunday.." After hearing this I realy must ask: Do you really understand the Bible? Do you even read it? God's law says that one must be stone for this or that. Its judgement for breaking God's law, it's what a sinner deserves. BUT in the same bible God gives shows us mercy and does not allow us to be stoned because we are all sinners. Therefore the law is a teaching tool to demonstrate how what is sin and how God hates it.
Socjlm, you're digging yourself into a deeper hole than you were in before.. You're saying it's right to stone someone to death for breaking God's laws (no matter how silly).
Wouldn't that include working on the Sabbath?
Where does it say in the Bible "The punishment for working on the Sabbath is Death, Oh, Wait, just kidding! we're all sinners, it's cool!"
The Bible makes it clear Working on Sabbath, Adultery, death by stoning.. This Is only some of the stupidity in the Bible.
When God commanded the Iraelites authorities, not any man, to stone someone for breakin those specific laws, it was intended to show what a sinner deserves, judgenemt from God and it shows how much God hates sin.
We dont have authority to stone nobody because we are all sinners, this is my point. This is why the new testaments does not continue with these practices.
Its not changing one's mind...why do you misread to better argue for your position? If you read the Bible you will find that God never intended to keep the law but it was used to make us understand how sinful we are to lead us to Jesus.
When you deem something stupid like stoning someone to death for disobeying a "silly" law, you are basing what is stupid or smart on your own presuppositions which are just as "shaky" as you would claim mine are. You are a product of western culture, which you would probably say is a better, more trustworthy measuring stick than others. But when there is no universals, your reason is governered simply by your cultural norms. This is the arguement by all relativists, which I assume you to be.
Sorry to burst you bubble, but Christianity is not the Universal religion.. And stoning someone to death for working on Sunday should NOT be a universal law..
YOUR reason is governed by your own cultural norms (Christianity), which thankfully have rejected most of the really extremely stupid parts of the Bible, like stoning people to death and selling their daughters into slavery.
Without moral relativism there would still be slaves in America, and women wouldn't have the right to vote.
Slavery was outlawed because of Christians in England (much to the dismay of many a Brit) first because they realized it had gotten to the point of more or less dehumanizing people.
18th and 19th century slavery was nothing like slavery in Biblical times.
Jesus never spoke out against slavery.. He even told masters how to take care of your slaves.. You can beat them, but not so badly that they die on the spot.. If they die a few days later.. It's OK.
Slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status.
People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.
And it's very lame of you to make slaves in "Biblical times" sound more like housekeepers... If it was really so nice, than what was Moses complaining about? Couldn't he finish working for Pharaoh for a few more decades?
Our society has become a sick one. We have become a culture with a morbid infatuation with death. From our violent movies and video games to abortion to euthanasia and the list goes on. We have lost any idea that life is sacred and given from God. That is the logical end if a culture has been taught that we as humans are no more special than a roach or mushroom. Just another pointless accident in the cold, dark, meaningless, godless universe. WOW! That makes me want to do something with my life!
I'm sure you want to go back to the good old Biblical days, when Slavery was the norm, and women were property... Back when a cold would kill you, and half the women died in child birth.. You think that society was more civil back then? You think Imperialism and public execution is the way to go?? You don't think men beat their wives back then, you don't think people worked overtime.. you don't think people cared about money in the dark ages, and ancient Israel?
Gabriel, what if you are wrong about the existence of God, particularly the God of the Bible? Has it ever crossed your mind? The thought of no God existing has crossed mine. Everyone has doubts now and then. It's just that if I am wrong, as I lie on my deathbed, I will have no fear-for if I am wrong, I will just cease to be conscious forever. And if I am right, I will enter into an eternal rest in heaven. You, on the other hand, will be crossing your fingers and hoping you were right, or else-
"Gabriel, what if you are wrong about the existence of God" This is the kind of argument I would expect from a used car salesman...
What if I'm wrong about YOUR God? I'll be tortured in hell until the end of time..
What if YOU'RE wrong about the Mormon God's or the Hindus, Greeks and Vikings.. what if the Jews were right, and Jesus was not a prophet? Or what if Mohammad actually was? Have you thought about converting to Islam?
What I believe about God and the Bible was done nothing but made my life great so far, by most people's standards.
1. I have been happily married for ten years to the same woman.
2. I have three young children that are respectful and love me and their mom.
3. I have lots of high school students that look up to me and see in me that this life is not just about trying to make money and life for self. (something our post-Christian culture laughs at)
If you want to learn about Abiogenesis you can look it up. type it into youtube (watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg) you might learn something. Organic molecules attract each other.
If you think that even the most basic amino acids are too complex and well structured to form naturally, than you must also agree that an all knowing, an all powerful God would be even more complex and perfect than the universe he created. And therefore, by your own logic, your God would also require a creator. Who created God?
You're asking me a question like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" when you ask "Have you found evidence for your imaginary friend?" Both a yes and no answer acknowledge a false premise--that I have been beating my wife and that God is imaginary, respectively. And because of your scornful, sarcastic tone, I think it would be a waste of my time to engage you further as you smack of dishonesty.
XarisGuitars, your comment smack of pseudo-intellectualism.. The question was "Have you found more evidence for GOD than your imaginary friend?" not "Your imaginary friend: God".. But, since the kind of evidence that most people give for God is the same kind of evidence a child would give for an imaginary friend, I understand your confusion..
So.. Is there any more evidence for YOUR God than there is for the Greek God Zeus??
Your first response to my comments was "if you want to put your faith in an imaginary friend, than (sic) feel free." THAT'S low and not even PSEUDO-intellectual.
The reason we'll never agree here is because we have different a priori assumptions about the universe and geological history. Sometimes, I find the hardest thing is to get atheists, agnostics, evolutionists, materialists, etc. to admit that they have non-scientifically-provable assumptions on which they base their worldview.
XarisGuitars, If your God is not real, than he is nothing more than an imaginary friend.. Even you have to admit that..
Our difference is that I believe in the scientific method, and peer review.. And you believe in myths that were first written back when people didn't know the Earth was round, diseases were caused by germs (And not demons), and dinosaurs walked the Earth 65 millions years before us... If they knew any of these things, their creation myths would make a lot more sense.
If God is who he says He is, who are we to pass judgement on whether His laws are silly and stupid. God is presented as loving in the Bible, but also Holy beyond all comprehending. If he said to stone people for adultery, who are you to say that it stupid? In many cultures, some social sins are looked at as worthy of death. This is still done in many countries today. If laws are up to whatever the cultural norm is, we cannot pass judgement as Westerners like we have the most just laws.
You're dealing with a mighty big "if" there, Gabriel. You cannot utilize the scientific method to discern how the universe formed. You can't control for that study. That was my point--you have assumptions (as do I) that neither of us can test scientifically--thus there's more to life than the scientific method. There's also philosophy (on which your scientific interpretations are based) and logic.
XarisGuitars, you can't do a control study to find out who killed Kennedy either.. But you can look at physical evidence, and use that in combination and understanding of physics and logic, along with critical thinking (Have you ever seen the show CSI?, it's like that on a much bigger scale) and come up with a rational solution which fits the evidence (Not just the wild guesses of primitive people)
There could be A God, or Many Gods.. But the stories of the Biblical God, appear to be untrue.
I understand your Kennedy and CSI examples, but the problem is that no one in our recorded history was present at the time the universe came to be, nor does any direct physical evidence of that occurrence exist. Nor do we know if processes and conditions have always been as they are today or even millenia ago. All I'm pointing out is that we all assume certain things to be true and then go from there. Depending on your assumptions, different conclusions will make more sense.
There is actually nothing but evidence throughout the whole universe.. Every Atom is evidence, every Gama ray and beam of light is evidence, and it is our job to find out when and how they got there..
If we continue with the CSI theme, the entire universe would be the scene of the crime.. And we are the detectives..
Now,if you're claiming God was at the scene of the crime, as far as I'm concerned, God is innocent until PROVEN guilty..
I was thinking about your first sentence here as I typed my previous comment, because that's not what I mean. It's late now, and I'm not sure how to make what I was trying to say clearer, but I can agree with you that "it is our job to find out when and how they got here" . . . making a lot of unprovable assumptions along the way. At this point, I'm more interested in establishing that all our scientific evidence is filtered through a worldview--either theistic of atheistic.
There is no theistic or atheistic wing of biology, and there is no theistic or atheistic wing of anthropology, geology etc.. In science, if you have any assumptions you have to show evidence for your assumptions.. But if you don't SHOW YOUR MATH, no one is going to bother publishing you, or quoting you..
Darwin did not make up evolution to prove creationism wrong.. Darwin discovered the process of evolution and investigated regardless of the implications.
If you're all about science, and if science does not involve supernatural or materialistic a priori philosophical assumptions, then why are you on here debating the existence of God? Why not just leave religious people alone? I think your problem is not that you value science (which of course everyone should value), but that you make it the measure of everything. Science is just one arena of the human experience.
[part 1] I think your problem is that the only image of science you have is guys standing around in white coats with beakers.. Science is a verb, not a noun. It is a way finding information, which rules out personal bias, and at the same time leaves all conclusions open to criticisms, skepticism and hopefully improvement.
Science does not deal with the supernatural, because the supernatural is not real. If any supernatural phenomenon WERE real, it would not longer be considered supernatural.
Pt.2) I wonder how you define supernatural.. Anything not found in nature? how do you define nature? The universe?. Does supernatural = anything not found in the universe? In other words, anything which does not exist?
That definition sounds pretty good to me...
You're right science can't prove that ghosts, goblins, unicorns, poseidon, leprechauns, god, genies, Freddy Cruger, or Santa Clause exist.. I am technically an agnostic in concern to all of these..
I see you've managed to ignore my question, but I'll forgive you that, because this is my last comment anyway. It was already obvious that you are a philosophical materialist and now it is confirmed when you say that the supernatural CANNOT be real. Until you change your foundational assumption that nothing can exist or have meaning outside the 5 physical senses, then we'll never get anywhere. I think I've made myself as clear as possible. I won't rebut again. We're going in circles.
You have failed to define supernatural.. All you can says is that it's something "above" or "outside". You're obviously being vague on purpose to give yourself more wiggle room when I call you on your BS.. Our 5 senses cannot perceive infrared light, ultraviolet light, Gama rays or radio waves without the aid of technology, but you don't consider them to be supernatural. The defining characteristic of everything which YOU would label supernatural is, that there is no evidence ANY of them exist.
It's sad that you would leave without making a closing arguement, or at least defining supernatural.You should know that anything that interacts with the universe, is also part of the universe. The universe is nature. And since I am only concerned with learning the truth of the universe (nature). You can call me a naturalist. I will call you a supernaturalist, because you are not concerned with the truth, you are concerned with the answer you already think you have.
I think that it's ignorant to state that someone isn't looking for the truth because they are looking for something supernatural. If you are ONLY looking for something natural, then it's the truth that you are avoiding. If you want to find the truth, you need to be studying both sides.
I looked into the science aspect and I found that most theories have to break the laws of physics to happen. There is a lack of hybrid fossils for Darwinism. I can't find anything wrong with God though
Every fossil is a transitional form.. Every new generation is a variation of the old.. For there to be a gap-less fossil record.. The bones of every individual creature that ever lived would have to be dug up and documented..
And it is impossible to investigate the supernatural.. So if the universe does have asupernatural cause, it will never be understood.. It would be like trying to prove that a ghost was guilty of murder.. Ghosts don't leave fingerprints.
I'm not talking about little gaps here and there, I'm talking about hybrid species. What about people? Why are humans the only "intelligent" beings after billions of years of evolution?
It is possible to investigate the supernatural. Through prophecies and "fingerprints" if you will. First mention of the earth being a sphere was in the Bible. First mention of sea currents and the hydrologic cycle were first mentioned in the Bible. Just two of many, many examples.
Hybrid of what? New species don't come from a combination of two distinct species.. Speciation is what happens when 1 species becomes 2 after a population becomes too genetically distinct...
So for example if you had a species of goat separated by a mountain, the population on one side would not be able to breed with the population on the other side.. Variations built up over time would make the two populations so different, that they would no longer be able to interbreed. That's speciation.
Take a bird (or any other animal) and trace it back to a single cell organism using reverse darwinism with fossil records. The stages of development are hybrid species. You'll find that you can't do that.
"Higher Intelligence" is used for survival? Our conversation is helping you survive? Did Bach's music allow us to live longer? Did Leonardo's paintings keep us alive?
"Take a bird (or any other animal) and trace it back to a single cell organism using reverse Darwinism with fossil records. The stages of development are hybrid species. You'll find that you can't do that"
Yes, you can trace birds or any animal backward in the fossil record.. You can also prove genetically that we and every living thing on this Earth are related.. And you would know that if you watched the video I sent you yesterday. "The 10th foundational falsehood of creationism"
""Higher Intelligence" is used for survival? Our conversation is helping you survive? Did Bach's music allow us to live longer? Did Leonardo's paintings keep us alive? "
Yes, conversations help you survive. Being an intelligent person will help you survive and compete in human society. Being creative is not only where we get music and art from, it is where we get invention, and conflict solution.
You don't think animals which could think critically and creatively would have any advantage?
As for intelligence.. Intelligence, is what human beings use to keep themselves alive.. Our intelligence evolved the same as any other species, and is still evolving.. Humans are hardly the only intelligent animal, we are just the most intelligent animal..
Supernatural means outside or not natural.. That means it can not be explained or tested through natural processes.. If prophecy is proof of anything than there are about 1000 other religions and fortune tellers you should look into..
I have looked into several other religions and Christianity is the only one I haven't found flaws in.
Really though, if you're so close minded to religion, there isn't anything that anyone is going to say that is going to help you figure it out. Until you're ready to hear, you'll be deaf.
Any evidence of the supernatural would be proof.. The bible clearly predicting an event like an earth quake (something which could not be a self fulfilling prophecy) would be evidence.. Creation myth being confirmed by scientific study, not refuted by would be evidence..
Being open minded should not require you to close your eyes to the world around you.
Ever tried reading the Bible? Just once? Try making through a whole Chapter? Try Luke. Maybe you think it is stupid just because you dont understand it. Just aksin. Geting some great and all but short lived.
GabrielGZNH, just wondering if you believed in any kind of universal morals. You obviously believe killing is wrong, but if we humans are nothing more than another species plodding along the evolutionary highway, why should we behave any different than our savage evolutionary cousins? Ultimately what would you appeal to so as to say that killing someone wrong? The law??? That can be changed by anybody who has the power to do so. So???? Does human-made law make things universally right or wrong??
why would anything be universaly right or wrong i dont know where you got that idea but it sure wasnt from observing human behavior even among christians
[part 1]: Who says that we all too different from our (savage) evolutionary cousins.. Humans are social animals, in groupes there are higherarchies, and unspoken rules (You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours).. If altruism seems to be more common in humans it's because we have a greater ability to plan ahead and think of complex solutions.. I dont steal for many reasons (partly because I dont want to get cought, partly because I dont want to lose my reputation,) [continued..]
[part 2]: I think a major reason I (we) dont (dont want others to) steal (murder, cheat, etc.. do harm to others) it because I (we) don't want to live in a world where these things are accepted.. (because it could happen to us one day)
Look at a wolf pack... A wolf pack is not as socially advanced as we are, mainly because they are not as intelligent.. But some basic rules, and reasons for those rules are evident.. (steal, kill, endanger the pack, you will be outcast, or killed)
[Part 3]: It comes down to this.. activities like Stealing, lying, cheating, killing, and a whole lot of other behavior which we would call immoral are all dangerious.. Being immoral is Dangerious, and if you want to survive in a social group, you had better not piss the group off.. So when you ask me, "How do we know murder is wrong without God's word?" I would say, "How do you know jumping in front of traffic is wrong without God's word?"
Deeming humans/animals smart or stupid is not the same as calling something "universally right or wrong". These are categorically different things. Agreed, humans can be stupid. But animals only kill out of the need for food or out of self defense. Mark Twain said that humans are the only animals that have the ability to blush, or need to. Please address what constitutes universal right or wrong in your opinion. (or good/evil) Dostoyevsky said, "Anything is permissible if there is no God."
People that believe in god are responsible for more killing and fucked up behavior than anybody else.That goes for all religions."Anything is permissible if you believe in god" ME .I've never been scared by an Atheist.Bible thumping people on the other hand are weird and scary.There is no evidence that any gods exist.
jnana123, If this is directed toward me, than I have a question for YOU about right and wrong.. Is rape wrong only because God makes it wrong, or does God describe rape as wrong, because rape is already a universally immoral act without God?
If the first is true, than could God have made Honesty and Charity immoral if he chose to, and rape a virtuious act?.. If the second is true, than morality and immorality are independant from God, and therefore not created by god..
GabrielGZNH, I would argue that the first scenario is true. Being a Christian, I believe God brought everything into existence, hence a universal morality was not something that God just saw that he liked and decided to adopt as His own rules. The Bible teaches us how to best get along with each other because it reflects God's character, which is unchangeable and perfect. All of man's problems are rooted in sin. But one day God will redeem it all back and in His own time make it right again.
So, in saying that God defines what is both moral and immoral, you are saying that God selected some things like Murder, Theft, and Rape.. Chose to MAKE tham immoral.. And the only reason you do not Rape, kill, lie and steal is because God told you not to... There is no intrinsic benefit in being Good, other than to win the favor of God.. And if God told you to Rape your best friend, you would do so.. Because HIS definition is the only one that matters.. Correct?
The Bible tells us to be holy as He is holy, to be "holy in every aspect of (our) conduct" (see 1 Peter 1:15-16) I believe that God asks us to model himself (and God is immutable), which was best modeled for us in Christ. He didn't arbitrarily say what was right or wrong. Just think, if mankind would just do what the Bible commmands us to do, many problems would go away.
1. AIDS, STD's, teenage pregnancies, etc.
2. Most single parent households that leads to crime and drugs in the kids.
You didn't get my point at all. My point is: not everyone worships God or lives a religious life solely because they are living their earthly life FOR the afterlife. I was trying to prove your opinion wrong that religious people are ONLY waiting for the end. Yes, we believe in an end and new life, BUT that doesn't mean we don't think THIS LIFE is ALSO amazing. :-)
AND we feel that being "religious" or "spiritual" makes this life even MORE amazing, while we're here.
Megan, If you take your religion seriously and really believe in the end of days, than you should know.. It's all about the second (third?)coming.. Jesus will come back judge the world and establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.. According to Christians, this will be the most important event in the history of the universe.. And more than %40 of American Christians expect it to happen in their lifetime. I don't think I'm wrong in saying that many Christians just cant wait for the world to end.
American fundamentalism is only about 50-100 years old, along with premillenialist thought. I belong to a more ancient form of Christianity, Anglicanism. Most of us believe that the end will happen, but as Jesus himself says "no one knows the day or the hour". alsoI take very seriously Jesus's prayer that the kingdom of heaven come "on earth as it is in heaven". I don't take this just as the end times, but trying to be the "salt" and the "light", making the world a better place while we're here.
*My faith is 2000 years old. So, taking my religion seriously does not necessarily result in being fundamentalist (100 years old). The NT speaks of the end times, but it is very vague. Revelation is a very symbolic text. People try to build a systematic theology out of it and it doesn't make sense. So, I don't do that and neither does my pastor. We look at the symbolism and interpret that and focus on what's important: Jesus. When he comes, great, but in the meantime, we have to live good lives
Megan, you can pick and choose which parts of the Bible you want... But Armageddon, is pretty much the pay off to the whole thing.. And thats whats going to happen if Jesus comes back (according to the NT)
[continued..} moderate in religious zeal as most states, a law was made in the latter end of the last century, repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine and imprisonment upon all blasphemers of any book of the Old Testament or New. Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating the divine authority of those books."
"There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt inspiration of all the books of the Old and New testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries in Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In England itself, it is punished by boring through the tongue with a hot poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I believe, upon the whole is as temperate and [cont...]
American fundamentalism has been around longer than America. The Puritans were among the most fundamentalist people in history.. They believed that hand of God held them up, waiting to be crushed or dropped at any time.. This kind of paranoia led to witch hunts, and torture.. The kind of torture that would only be carried out by people who believed they were doing God's work.. These were the left overs of the dark ages in Europe, where over 600 years of religious idiocy stunted human progress.
Great reminder. Our first priority in life as Christians is to glorify Christ and make Him known to others, through truth and love. So while our next president is not one who most Christians find hard to support- he deserves our respect as America's leader, ordained by God. Where you have differences, voice them tempered with wisdom and love. Country is not first, God is first.
Sovereignty of God. Financial market crash, worst sense the Great Depression, right before the election. Democrats are always favored in a recession... Coincidence?
Thank you, John Piper! What an awesome reminder that God is and will always remain on His throne! How easy it is to freak out when we forget God's sovereignty over this world. Yes, we need to use our voices (and votes) to seek justice for the weakest among us. But, God can and will use the outcome of this election to bring about His glory. Whatever personal effects may be caused by this election, we must remember that God has promised to provide for our every need!
Thank you, Mr.Piper, for this word. Our eyes should be on the Lord today knowing that whatever happens to America we have an everlasting kingdom. And by the way, this economy may be in crisis, but God's economy is not. The earth is the Lord's and everything it contains. We can know as God's children that we have a solid rock on which to stand in shaky times.
GabrielGZNH, why do you come to a John Piper video, which is going to be viewed almost exclusively by religious people, and start bashing religion? Do you have nothing better to do with your time?
Every now an then I listen to religious people speak, trying to see if they have ANYTHING of value to say.. But it's hard to relevant when you base you life on the supernatural.
If you don't want to listen to religious people, why did you watch Piper on YouTube? You can say you don't want to talk to religious people all you want, but the obvious question is, why are you posting so many comments? No one is forcing you to.
I didn't say I don't want to watch religious videos, I didn't say I don't want to talk to religious people.. Thats pretty clear.. I choose to post comments, because I think religion is an important topic.. And for far too long, the only people talking about it have been religious people.. Anymore questions?
b) neither am i, nor most Christians I know. If heaven or hell turned out to not exist, I would still live every day of my blessed life as a Christian b/c I know God, he is real, and his love has transformed every day of my life for the better. :-)
PS) It is possible to be religious without even believing in an afterlife. Most ancient religions were that way, including the most ancient form of Yahweh worship, in the Old Testament. The Old Testament doesn't start talking about any positive or meaningful afterlife until like Daniel (i.e. resurrection of the dead), which is written pretty late, in the Babylonian exile most people think. There's a passing remark in Job. The afterlife is certainly not central to O.T. religion.
I didn't say anything about the afterlife in the Old Testament.. I think the idea of a person surviving their own death is kinda ridiculous.. But that is not the only ridiculous idea the Bible (OT & NT) have to offer. But it is an example of the accumulating myths of the Bible, like the assumed ascension of the Virgin Mary into heaven.. And the Vaticans stance on Purgatory.. The idea of an afterlife is not the only supernatural aspect of the Bible. And not original to the Bible either.
Here is your answer.. I am not angry, I think life is amazing.. And dont need magical stories to make the world amazing..
You ARE waiting for the world to end, thats what happens when Jesus comes back (Armageddon).. So just keep on waiting..
You KNOW God (jesus?) exists in the same sence that ancient Greeks KNEW Zeus and Apollo existed.. Probably also in the same sence that The Zodiac Killer KNEW his neighbors dog was possessed by a demon and telling him to kill people.
It takes just as much belief or maybe more to believe their is no God as it does to believe there is one. Both are belief systems. Personally i find it extreamely hard to believe the world and universe we live in is accidental. From the sub atomic level to the solar system level, the complexity and perfect unison in which everything runs is fantastic. There must be somebody who designed this.
This is one of the main things in life pointing me to a belief in God. Consider it. It's important.
Atheism is not a belief system.. It is a single answer to the single question "Do you believe in God?".. Any person, who does not have a positive belief in any God is an Atheist, even Agnostics.. You can be a liberal or conservative, pro-abortion or anti-abortion.. If you don't claim a belief in God/Gods you are a non-theist..
To say that there is an all powerful all knowing being controlling the universe is an extraordinary claim, which requires extraordinary evidence. [continued...]
PropertyofGod7, I am sorry to burst your bubble.. But the universe does NOT work in unison (At least not as a place for life to flourish) %99.9999 of the universe is a freezing vacuum %0.000001 is hotter than the surface of the sun.. We live on a knife edge, that is shrinking.. The universe is NOT designed for us.. life grows in the only places it can. Which are not very many. %99 of every species that has ever lived on this planet has gone extinct. All good things come to an end. Such is life.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Co 2:14
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisioned ; yet we have not advanced on inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson
1.a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.
abortion and homosexuality is God's judgment... but yes... i agree... we need to stand against these abominations. they are disgusting and dispicable.
Believers should be "worked up." Obama advocates for homosexuals. Homosexuality is an abomination to our God (1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:1) and Christians should be outraged! Obama advocates for partial birth abortion, a procedure in which scissors are jammed into a baby's skull and the brains are sucked out. Our God values the lives of the unborn (Psalm 139: 13-16). We should be outraged! If Christians do little/stand on the sidelines we can expect God's impending judgment on this nation.
You also said that "keeping us free from socialism IS as important as spreading the gospel" that is a heresy of all heresies. Romans 1:16 says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not democracy or any other form of government. Also you said, "this John Piper is scary in the fact that he does not see an end coming to free expression of Christianity when Hussein wins this John Piper needs a wakeup call." John Piper does see that end coming. You need to do better research.
second... You said "We will NOT recover from the anti Christian movement when Hussein, Pelosi and Reid are in charge." I completely disagree. If you look at church history the church has always flurished the most when it is under persecution. The church is growing at incredible rates in countries like China where Christianity is outlawed. Also i would like to add that when Christ comes back riding on a horse slicing people with a sword for a tongue is going to be a wonderful recovery...
first of all Piper never said that who the leader is isn't important. He was simply stating that God is in control of the situation. And you tell me where human free will is in Romans 13:1-2
"Rom 13:1-2 ESV Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."
The US provides the beacon of freedom to the world and MANY soldiers have paid the price to do this. And I do have an allegiance to my country as do I to Jesus. The US has done more for the spreading of Christianity than any other in history.
Keeping us free from socialism IS as important as speading the gospel... this John Piper is scary in the fact that he does not see an end coming to free expression of Christianity when Hussein wins this John Piper needs a wakeup call.
Don't think it can't happen? Look at Cuba, Germany and Russia... ALL Christian until taken over by slick talking, men of the people... and then they shut down the churches, because Socialism is the religion of the state, NOT Christianity.
We will NOT recover from the anti Christian movement when Hussein, Pelosi and Reid are in charge. Don't forget Jesus believed in governement (Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's) and you only get to live on earth ONCE! I'd prefer to live in a free society thank you very much. How many missionaries are coming out of Russia and China? A free market system allows for prosperity and the ability to preach the gospel all over the world.
Don't worry so much. Neither your freedom nor the free market are in danger, that's just hyperpartisan backwash from fox news talking to you. You'll be fine. You just have to pay higher taxes for four years, that's all.
no where in constitution does it speak of seperation of church and state. That comes from letters from founders such as Thomas Jefferson and was said that Government should not get into religion not vice versa... Constitution says that government will not endorse a religion... get your facts straight...
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" Is that not legal grounds for the separation of church and state?
Any law respecting an establishment of religion would be the incorporation of religion and the state.. The first amendment is clearly there to prevent this.
Who your leader is IS very important. God allows humans free will and allows for stupid people to vote for child murdering radicals. Once this clown Hussein is in the "whitehouse" Christianity, the military, pro-lifers, foundations of American institutions will be persecuted like you've never seen. So voting is VERY important, this election IS the saving of the US or the downfall.
Seriously, y'all, it's really hard to be in this world, yet not be of it. I shall keep my eyes on God, do my part and trust that God is still in control:)
When your eyes are on god which direction are you staring in ? Do your part and help get religion out of all politics.I don't want a president that believes in Noahs ark and talking snakes.
first of all noboby know if heaven exist!couse nobody turn buck to say!second if i go in heaven of christians,i also have to go in hell of all the ather relligion!third what makes you feel that humans are inteligent?!we destroy the earth the animals,our home!and our selfs!why someone want to suicid is an inteligent!thers nothink special with human kind!and god know this!we just afraid to died and we have a syndrome of complex of who we are!
kachetil 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Nice work. keep it up. mean time come for social media marketing for esteembpo**com LQOWI
titalminarisa 2 years ago
This is the TRUTH!
Candy9355 2 years ago
Gabriel,
Just curious about another thing.
For you, what would you say is the underlying, most basic entity that drives your every decision in life? What is foundational in helping you make decisions? What is the chief end for you and your life when the rubber meets road?
1. Is it the pursuit of pleasure?
2. The pursuit of money?
3. The will to be more famous?
4. To appear smarter?
5. To have better and better sex?
These are pointless and will amount to nothing in the grand scheme. Sad..
jnana123 3 years ago
"For you, what would you say is the underlying, most basic entity that drives your every decision in life?"
I would be that "entity".. I use critical thinking and logic.. I try not to do harm to others, because I know it is best for me, and because I know that I am related to every living creature on this Earth.
I am not good because I fear God.. I am Good, because I fear a planet who sees no intrinsic value in Good.. And doesn't understand the stupidity in Violence.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Plenty of harm to others can work out selfishly for yourself. Why worry about others when it is survival of the fittest? My sinful nature says:
1. Steal from the stupid people who leave their cars running in the parking lot.
2. Lie to people when it can benefit me even if it hurts them and they will never know.
3. Have sex with the woman who says she has a secret crush on me even though I know it could potentially destroy mine and her marriages.
Why should I worry about others huh?
jnana123 3 years ago
1.) Steal a car, if you are caught, your friends and family will know you are a thief, and you have a good chance of getting arrested or even killed.
2.) You never know when you will be caught in a lie.. about being caught is never a good thing.
3.) Cheat on your wife, she might leave you, you might get the other girl pregnant, if she is married her husband might kill you..
There are more than enough non-religious reasons to avoid immoral activity
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
You know Hitler was a strict evolutionist who was simply trying to speed up human evolution through extermination of what he deemed genetically weaker subhumans. The Neonazi groups would love to do the same to blacks. All in the name of Evolution. I have to give it to him, when you "worship" at the temple of a godless science, this is carrying it out to its logical end. Survival of the fittest! Might makes right baby! That is how it works in the animal kingdom. Hitler felt we were stunting evo.
jnana123 3 years ago
[part 3] As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice....
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people...." - Adolf Hitler
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
[part 2] "In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross."
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
[part 1] "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter....
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Even a superficial glance is sufficient to show that all the innumerable forms in which the life-urge of Nature manifests itself are subject to a fundamental law one may call it an iron law of Nature which compels the various species to keep within the definite limits of their own life-forms when propagating and multiplying their kind. Each animal mates only with one of its own species. The titmouse cohabits only with the titmouse, the finch with the finch etc.. -Adolf Hitler,Mein Kampf
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
please read:
Adolph Hitler
Mein Kampf
CHAPTER XI
RACE AND PEOPLE
You will see very clearly that Hitler did not believe in evolution.. And Hitler was obviously a Christian.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
It's completely stupid when u call someone a christian just because they say they are!! Read the Bible first..ask what does the bible say is really a true Christian not foolishly believe when someone else who doesnt know the what the bible teaches on being a true christian is...so sad.
socjlm 3 years ago
Socjlm, Hitler was a Roman Catholic and never renounced his faith.. He spoke openly about being Christian and the role God had in his decision making..
What is really sad is your argument.. That Hitler should not be considered a Christian, because he was a bad guy.. And I guess Usama should not be considered a Muslim either..
If calling yourself a Christian, and quoting the Bible during his speeches is not enough, what would be proof for you? I'll be happy to send it your way..
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Gabriel, Hitler professed to be Christian but his philosophies were not what the bible teaches. That is my point. For example, Jesus's disciples were Jewish and He loved them! People can use the bible but not always do they understand the meaning of the text. Some pastors and proffessors twist passages to fit their philosophies. Not teaching truth but what they think is biblical truth.
socjlm 3 years ago
"People can use the bible but not always do they understand the meaning of the text. Some pastors and proffessors twist passages to fit their philosophies. Not teaching truth but what they think is biblical truth."
Well isn't that convenient for you... Anyone who does anything wrong is automatically not a christian, and therefore Christianity can not be blamed for anything.. I suppose the Catholic church's silence during the holocaust proves that the Christian church is not Christian either.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
"Anyone who does anything wrong is automatically not a christian"-- LOL...you just did exactly what I said people do with the Bible. You just misinterpreted me to suit your arguments.
The Bible says all are sinners including Christians therefore Christians do wrong things. But it also says that a real Christian grows in holiness or doing good things...did Hitler grow in holiness? I think not! We always sin here and there but I would suspect if commited crimes such as murder.
socjlm 3 years ago
"But it also says that a real Christian grows in holiness or doing good things"
Right there is exactly my point, and I made it clear. That quote makes anyone who does not do good a non-christian, by your definition. What you are saying is that anyone who does bad things, should not be considered a Christian.
Who are you to redefine anyones faith?? Are you Going to say that Bush is not a Christian because he has done harm to this world. That is just a cheap trick to avoid responsibility.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
"That quote makes anyone who does not do good a non-christian, by your definition."
Not my definition, but the Bible's. It contains the profile of how a real Christian behaves. Christ defined that word not I. If you dont like it you have problems in your thinking. Anyway King David, in Old Testament, was a real servant of God, yet he commited Adultery and murder ONCE not always or as a habit. He repented! I doubt Hitler ever repented! I never said Christians cant do evil.
socjlm 3 years ago
Being "The Bible's definition" only makes it worse.. It is still just a cheap trick for Christians to avoid the consequences of their religion..
Hitler called himself a Christian, he spoke as a Christian, he believed as a Christian.. And by attacking the Jews, he believed he was acting as a Christian..
And you still maintain that anyone who has done wrong is not a Christian, and so the Christians should never be blamed for anything.. Were the crusaders Christians? or the Puritans?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
The only reason you think that certain God-given laws and their respective punishments are silly, or backwards is that you claim to be the all-wise. If a death penalty keeps people from committing adultery, which I believe is a direct sin against God, why not? If it cut this sin by 95%, that would be great for our society. But you would cry that this was not a just punishment because you see nothing wrong with it and probably are part of our culture's problem. Adultery is killing families today.
jnana123 3 years ago
Wow, jnana123.. Someone must have broken your heart... I absolutely do not believe in the death penalty for adulterers.. You realize you would be killing hundreds of thousands of people..
People would not stand for Friends and family members being killed for adultery.. Mass execution would cause civil unrest, and complete rejection of the Christian faith.
In a world where you could be killed for the slightest infraction.. Sounds even worse than Orwell's "1984", or Nazi Germany.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
People can be executed in many countries such as China and Iraq for many different crimes. And guess what genius??? The crime rate for these crimes there are a mere fraction of what they are in this liberal country. When I tell my students they will be expelled if they get csught cheating, guess what, the cheating vanishes. You are a moron if you think that millions would go on having affairs if punishable by death. People have free will and self control you know.
jnana123 3 years ago
Ha ha, China and Iraq, great examples, we should be more like China and Iraq..
You realize you are literally endorsing a fascist theocracy???
And since you are an absolutist, we can't pick and choose, it will also be illegal to eat shrimp, and mix fabrics..
And if a man rapes a virgin woman, he must marry her, give her father fifty shekels, and never divorce her.. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Those are antiquated and have been replaced. Study the Bible and you will know that the ceremonial Jewish Law is no longer practiced. No I am saying just make punishments stricter and you won't have more people being murdured in Chicago every year than people killed in Iraq. Morons know this.
jnana123 3 years ago
[part 1] Jnana123, funny how you're willing to scrap pretty much the whole Bible when it's contents are actually put in front of your face.. Sounds like a whole lot of moral relativism to me..
For a whole lot of people Deuteronomy and Leviticus are still the word of God, and in a theocratic dictatorship, would be used to justify the kind of mass executions you were talking about..
YOU are a prefect example of why so many people consider blind faith so dangerous.. [continued..]
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger. The only difference that can exist within the species must be in the various degrees of structural strength and active power, in the intelligence, efficiency, endurance, etc., with which the individual specimens are endowed. It would be impossible to find a fox which has a kindly and protective disposition towards geese.... - Hitler
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
This guy is weird and scary.
motorcitystevo 3 years ago
barf
no1saphead 3 years ago
AMEN! Well said.
pmpope68 3 years ago
our hope is not in America, or the president, or any leader, but solely on Christ
newtestube 3 years ago
newtestube, pathetic
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Gabrriel, If you want to put your hope in fallible man or fickle circumstances, then go right ahead. You will find that to be a pathetic choice.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
XarisGuitars, if you want to put your faith in an imaginary friend, than feel free, but don't expect me to patronize you like your parents did, with you first imaginary friend.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I don't put my faith in an imaginary friend. You sure know how to spin things to make them look bad. My guess is that you'll continue that path in life, much to your later disappointment.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
Do you have any more evidence that God exists than you did for your imaginary friend back when you were 5 years old?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Gabriel, how do you explain the existence of life, which even by the admission of atheistic biochemists, seems staggeringly unlikely to have jumped from inorganic material to even the simplest proteins which are the building blocks for life. Atheistic mathematicians who have studied this probability put the odds at 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 that it could have happened by the means of time and chance. I'm sorry, but it smacks of a grand designer.
jnana123 3 years ago
continued- Atheists say "well, odds be damned, we have no choice but to say we simply hit the jackpot. That takes much more faith to believe in that craziness.
jnana123 3 years ago
When we see elements of design in this world, we assume an intelligence was behind it. Even if you don't believe in the God of the Bible, you must admit that this is a defensible position. Thousands of scientists of yesterday and today have said that there appears to be a super-intellect that finely tuned it all. To still deny God with all the visible evidence of His Creation is borne out of a deep desire to be your one's own God, which is borne out of a deep seeded jealousy for His throne.
jnana123 3 years ago
The problem that the non-religious person has, is not that he is jealous of God, or trying to justify sin. the problem is, every time he enters into a debate he is responsible for giving the other end lessons.. In History, Chemistry, Biology, Archeology, often Theology and even basic logic. (Here, in less than 500 characters) When all the other side needs to do is say "God did it"
That argument will cause the religious mind to atrophy, and stops substantive conversation in its tracks.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
As far as either God or nature being eternal, I will take God. Who would you say created matter? If you say it was eternal, the second law of thermodynamics destroys that position. Whatever the case, when you get to this point, you are dealing in the realm of metaphysics, something science cannot speak to, nor wants to. This is why ultimately, science will never answer all the big questions that tug at the human soul. Issues or ultimate purpose, free will, universal morality, good & evil.
jnana123 3 years ago
You are hiding behind the God of the Gaps.. Where ever there is something that has not been explained fully, you say "God is the only answer".. Before it was the Sun, and the weather, than the creation of the earth and other planets.. Than the origin of life, and causes of disease.. The God of the gaps is getting smaller... And throughout history religion has been asking "Who and Why" instead of "How and what".. You'll never find the right answers, if you're not asking the right questions..
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Continued-
3. Murder, rape, theft, lying, etc, all are universally seen as harmful to man.
Can't you see that all of these laws and commands, when followed, lead to a better, more peaceful life? There is much intrinsic benefit in being doing these things. God is not an idiot! Even taking one day in seven to rest has been found to increase worker productivity. Studies have shown that employees need this regular rest. But we moderns in our pride have shunned much of these to our demise.
jnana123 3 years ago
All you are saying is that avoiding immoral behavior is the best means of self preseravtion.. This is exactly the evolutionry explanation for morality.. Not God, not "Do it because god says so" It's "I have better be good, cause I dont want to get hurt"
You dont need God to be moral.. You also dont need to be stoned to death for working on Sunday.. Or mixing cotton with wool.. We could do much better than the bible.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
"You also dont need to be stoned to death for working on Sunday.." After hearing this I realy must ask: Do you really understand the Bible? Do you even read it? God's law says that one must be stone for this or that. Its judgement for breaking God's law, it's what a sinner deserves. BUT in the same bible God gives shows us mercy and does not allow us to be stoned because we are all sinners. Therefore the law is a teaching tool to demonstrate how what is sin and how God hates it.
socjlm 3 years ago
Socjlm, you're digging yourself into a deeper hole than you were in before.. You're saying it's right to stone someone to death for breaking God's laws (no matter how silly).
Wouldn't that include working on the Sabbath?
Where does it say in the Bible "The punishment for working on the Sabbath is Death, Oh, Wait, just kidding! we're all sinners, it's cool!"
The Bible makes it clear Working on Sabbath, Adultery, death by stoning.. This Is only some of the stupidity in the Bible.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
When God commanded the Iraelites authorities, not any man, to stone someone for breakin those specific laws, it was intended to show what a sinner deserves, judgenemt from God and it shows how much God hates sin.
We dont have authority to stone nobody because we are all sinners, this is my point. This is why the new testaments does not continue with these practices.
socjlm 3 years ago
Oh, good thing God changed his mind about that..
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
"Oh, good thing God changed his mind about that"
Its not changing one's mind...why do you misread to better argue for your position? If you read the Bible you will find that God never intended to keep the law but it was used to make us understand how sinful we are to lead us to Jesus.
socjlm 3 years ago
When you deem something stupid like stoning someone to death for disobeying a "silly" law, you are basing what is stupid or smart on your own presuppositions which are just as "shaky" as you would claim mine are. You are a product of western culture, which you would probably say is a better, more trustworthy measuring stick than others. But when there is no universals, your reason is governered simply by your cultural norms. This is the arguement by all relativists, which I assume you to be.
jnana123 3 years ago
Sorry to burst you bubble, but Christianity is not the Universal religion.. And stoning someone to death for working on Sunday should NOT be a universal law..
YOUR reason is governed by your own cultural norms (Christianity), which thankfully have rejected most of the really extremely stupid parts of the Bible, like stoning people to death and selling their daughters into slavery.
Without moral relativism there would still be slaves in America, and women wouldn't have the right to vote.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Slavery was outlawed because of Christians in England (much to the dismay of many a Brit) first because they realized it had gotten to the point of more or less dehumanizing people.
18th and 19th century slavery was nothing like slavery in Biblical times.
jnana123 3 years ago
Jesus never spoke out against slavery.. He even told masters how to take care of your slaves.. You can beat them, but not so badly that they die on the spot.. If they die a few days later.. It's OK.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status.
jnana123 3 years ago
People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.
jnana123 3 years ago
And it's very lame of you to make slaves in "Biblical times" sound more like housekeepers... If it was really so nice, than what was Moses complaining about? Couldn't he finish working for Pharaoh for a few more decades?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Our society has become a sick one. We have become a culture with a morbid infatuation with death. From our violent movies and video games to abortion to euthanasia and the list goes on. We have lost any idea that life is sacred and given from God. That is the logical end if a culture has been taught that we as humans are no more special than a roach or mushroom. Just another pointless accident in the cold, dark, meaningless, godless universe. WOW! That makes me want to do something with my life!
jnana123 3 years ago
I'm sure you want to go back to the good old Biblical days, when Slavery was the norm, and women were property... Back when a cold would kill you, and half the women died in child birth.. You think that society was more civil back then? You think Imperialism and public execution is the way to go?? You don't think men beat their wives back then, you don't think people worked overtime.. you don't think people cared about money in the dark ages, and ancient Israel?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Gabriel, what if you are wrong about the existence of God, particularly the God of the Bible? Has it ever crossed your mind? The thought of no God existing has crossed mine. Everyone has doubts now and then. It's just that if I am wrong, as I lie on my deathbed, I will have no fear-for if I am wrong, I will just cease to be conscious forever. And if I am right, I will enter into an eternal rest in heaven. You, on the other hand, will be crossing your fingers and hoping you were right, or else-
jnana123 3 years ago
"Gabriel, what if you are wrong about the existence of God" This is the kind of argument I would expect from a used car salesman...
What if I'm wrong about YOUR God? I'll be tortured in hell until the end of time..
What if YOU'RE wrong about the Mormon God's or the Hindus, Greeks and Vikings.. what if the Jews were right, and Jesus was not a prophet? Or what if Mohammad actually was? Have you thought about converting to Islam?
Would you prey to Thor, just in case?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
What I believe about God and the Bible was done nothing but made my life great so far, by most people's standards.
1. I have been happily married for ten years to the same woman.
2. I have three young children that are respectful and love me and their mom.
3. I have lots of high school students that look up to me and see in me that this life is not just about trying to make money and life for self. (something our post-Christian culture laughs at)
My life has lacked nothing because of my belief
jnana123 3 years ago
1.) Would you not marry the same woman if it were not for the Bible (I wonder how she would feel about that)
2.) Were you impotent until you started praying to Jesus?
3.) Do you feel as though you have not earned their respect on your own.. Could and atheist not earn the respect of his students?
a.) Could you name 1 GOOD thing a religious person could do, than an Atheist NEVER could..
b.) Name 1 BAD thing that a religious person would do, than an Atheist person never would..
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
If you want to learn about Abiogenesis you can look it up. type it into youtube (watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg) you might learn something. Organic molecules attract each other.
If you think that even the most basic amino acids are too complex and well structured to form naturally, than you must also agree that an all knowing, an all powerful God would be even more complex and perfect than the universe he created. And therefore, by your own logic, your God would also require a creator. Who created God?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I find the premise of your question totally bogus.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
XarisGuitars... Oh, is they what you find? Care to go into a little detail why, or are you still thinking about it?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
You're asking me a question like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" when you ask "Have you found evidence for your imaginary friend?" Both a yes and no answer acknowledge a false premise--that I have been beating my wife and that God is imaginary, respectively. And because of your scornful, sarcastic tone, I think it would be a waste of my time to engage you further as you smack of dishonesty.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
XarisGuitars, your comment smack of pseudo-intellectualism.. The question was "Have you found more evidence for GOD than your imaginary friend?" not "Your imaginary friend: God".. But, since the kind of evidence that most people give for God is the same kind of evidence a child would give for an imaginary friend, I understand your confusion..
So.. Is there any more evidence for YOUR God than there is for the Greek God Zeus??
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Your first response to my comments was "if you want to put your faith in an imaginary friend, than (sic) feel free." THAT'S low and not even PSEUDO-intellectual.
The reason we'll never agree here is because we have different a priori assumptions about the universe and geological history. Sometimes, I find the hardest thing is to get atheists, agnostics, evolutionists, materialists, etc. to admit that they have non-scientifically-provable assumptions on which they base their worldview.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
XarisGuitars, If your God is not real, than he is nothing more than an imaginary friend.. Even you have to admit that..
Our difference is that I believe in the scientific method, and peer review.. And you believe in myths that were first written back when people didn't know the Earth was round, diseases were caused by germs (And not demons), and dinosaurs walked the Earth 65 millions years before us... If they knew any of these things, their creation myths would make a lot more sense.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
If God is who he says He is, who are we to pass judgement on whether His laws are silly and stupid. God is presented as loving in the Bible, but also Holy beyond all comprehending. If he said to stone people for adultery, who are you to say that it stupid? In many cultures, some social sins are looked at as worthy of death. This is still done in many countries today. If laws are up to whatever the cultural norm is, we cannot pass judgement as Westerners like we have the most just laws.
jnana123 3 years ago
You're dealing with a mighty big "if" there, Gabriel. You cannot utilize the scientific method to discern how the universe formed. You can't control for that study. That was my point--you have assumptions (as do I) that neither of us can test scientifically--thus there's more to life than the scientific method. There's also philosophy (on which your scientific interpretations are based) and logic.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
XarisGuitars, you can't do a control study to find out who killed Kennedy either.. But you can look at physical evidence, and use that in combination and understanding of physics and logic, along with critical thinking (Have you ever seen the show CSI?, it's like that on a much bigger scale) and come up with a rational solution which fits the evidence (Not just the wild guesses of primitive people)
There could be A God, or Many Gods.. But the stories of the Biblical God, appear to be untrue.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I understand your Kennedy and CSI examples, but the problem is that no one in our recorded history was present at the time the universe came to be, nor does any direct physical evidence of that occurrence exist. Nor do we know if processes and conditions have always been as they are today or even millenia ago. All I'm pointing out is that we all assume certain things to be true and then go from there. Depending on your assumptions, different conclusions will make more sense.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
There is actually nothing but evidence throughout the whole universe.. Every Atom is evidence, every Gama ray and beam of light is evidence, and it is our job to find out when and how they got there..
If we continue with the CSI theme, the entire universe would be the scene of the crime.. And we are the detectives..
Now,if you're claiming God was at the scene of the crime, as far as I'm concerned, God is innocent until PROVEN guilty..
P.S, sorry for all the metaphor.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I was thinking about your first sentence here as I typed my previous comment, because that's not what I mean. It's late now, and I'm not sure how to make what I was trying to say clearer, but I can agree with you that "it is our job to find out when and how they got here" . . . making a lot of unprovable assumptions along the way. At this point, I'm more interested in establishing that all our scientific evidence is filtered through a worldview--either theistic of atheistic.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
There is no theistic or atheistic wing of biology, and there is no theistic or atheistic wing of anthropology, geology etc.. In science, if you have any assumptions you have to show evidence for your assumptions.. But if you don't SHOW YOUR MATH, no one is going to bother publishing you, or quoting you..
Darwin did not make up evolution to prove creationism wrong.. Darwin discovered the process of evolution and investigated regardless of the implications.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
If you're all about science, and if science does not involve supernatural or materialistic a priori philosophical assumptions, then why are you on here debating the existence of God? Why not just leave religious people alone? I think your problem is not that you value science (which of course everyone should value), but that you make it the measure of everything. Science is just one arena of the human experience.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
[part 1] I think your problem is that the only image of science you have is guys standing around in white coats with beakers.. Science is a verb, not a noun. It is a way finding information, which rules out personal bias, and at the same time leaves all conclusions open to criticisms, skepticism and hopefully improvement.
Science does not deal with the supernatural, because the supernatural is not real. If any supernatural phenomenon WERE real, it would not longer be considered supernatural.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Pt.2) I wonder how you define supernatural.. Anything not found in nature? how do you define nature? The universe?. Does supernatural = anything not found in the universe? In other words, anything which does not exist?
That definition sounds pretty good to me...
You're right science can't prove that ghosts, goblins, unicorns, poseidon, leprechauns, god, genies, Freddy Cruger, or Santa Clause exist.. I am technically an agnostic in concern to all of these..
Which are you agnostic to?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I see you've managed to ignore my question, but I'll forgive you that, because this is my last comment anyway. It was already obvious that you are a philosophical materialist and now it is confirmed when you say that the supernatural CANNOT be real. Until you change your foundational assumption that nothing can exist or have meaning outside the 5 physical senses, then we'll never get anywhere. I think I've made myself as clear as possible. I won't rebut again. We're going in circles.
XarisGuitars 3 years ago
You have failed to define supernatural.. All you can says is that it's something "above" or "outside". You're obviously being vague on purpose to give yourself more wiggle room when I call you on your BS.. Our 5 senses cannot perceive infrared light, ultraviolet light, Gama rays or radio waves without the aid of technology, but you don't consider them to be supernatural. The defining characteristic of everything which YOU would label supernatural is, that there is no evidence ANY of them exist.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
It's sad that you would leave without making a closing arguement, or at least defining supernatural.You should know that anything that interacts with the universe, is also part of the universe. The universe is nature. And since I am only concerned with learning the truth of the universe (nature). You can call me a naturalist. I will call you a supernaturalist, because you are not concerned with the truth, you are concerned with the answer you already think you have.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I think that it's ignorant to state that someone isn't looking for the truth because they are looking for something supernatural. If you are ONLY looking for something natural, then it's the truth that you are avoiding. If you want to find the truth, you need to be studying both sides.
I looked into the science aspect and I found that most theories have to break the laws of physics to happen. There is a lack of hybrid fossils for Darwinism. I can't find anything wrong with God though
hylion527 3 years ago
Every fossil is a transitional form.. Every new generation is a variation of the old.. For there to be a gap-less fossil record.. The bones of every individual creature that ever lived would have to be dug up and documented..
And it is impossible to investigate the supernatural.. So if the universe does have asupernatural cause, it will never be understood.. It would be like trying to prove that a ghost was guilty of murder.. Ghosts don't leave fingerprints.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I'm not talking about little gaps here and there, I'm talking about hybrid species. What about people? Why are humans the only "intelligent" beings after billions of years of evolution?
It is possible to investigate the supernatural. Through prophecies and "fingerprints" if you will. First mention of the earth being a sphere was in the Bible. First mention of sea currents and the hydrologic cycle were first mentioned in the Bible. Just two of many, many examples.
hylion527 3 years ago
Hybrid of what? New species don't come from a combination of two distinct species.. Speciation is what happens when 1 species becomes 2 after a population becomes too genetically distinct...
So for example if you had a species of goat separated by a mountain, the population on one side would not be able to breed with the population on the other side.. Variations built up over time would make the two populations so different, that they would no longer be able to interbreed. That's speciation.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Take a bird (or any other animal) and trace it back to a single cell organism using reverse darwinism with fossil records. The stages of development are hybrid species. You'll find that you can't do that.
"Higher Intelligence" is used for survival? Our conversation is helping you survive? Did Bach's music allow us to live longer? Did Leonardo's paintings keep us alive?
hylion527 3 years ago
"Take a bird (or any other animal) and trace it back to a single cell organism using reverse Darwinism with fossil records. The stages of development are hybrid species. You'll find that you can't do that"
Yes, you can trace birds or any animal backward in the fossil record.. You can also prove genetically that we and every living thing on this Earth are related.. And you would know that if you watched the video I sent you yesterday. "The 10th foundational falsehood of creationism"
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
""Higher Intelligence" is used for survival? Our conversation is helping you survive? Did Bach's music allow us to live longer? Did Leonardo's paintings keep us alive? "
Yes, conversations help you survive. Being an intelligent person will help you survive and compete in human society. Being creative is not only where we get music and art from, it is where we get invention, and conflict solution.
You don't think animals which could think critically and creatively would have any advantage?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
As for intelligence.. Intelligence, is what human beings use to keep themselves alive.. Our intelligence evolved the same as any other species, and is still evolving.. Humans are hardly the only intelligent animal, we are just the most intelligent animal..
Supernatural means outside or not natural.. That means it can not be explained or tested through natural processes.. If prophecy is proof of anything than there are about 1000 other religions and fortune tellers you should look into..
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I have looked into several other religions and Christianity is the only one I haven't found flaws in.
Really though, if you're so close minded to religion, there isn't anything that anyone is going to say that is going to help you figure it out. Until you're ready to hear, you'll be deaf.
hylion527 3 years ago 2
Any evidence of the supernatural would be proof.. The bible clearly predicting an event like an earth quake (something which could not be a self fulfilling prophecy) would be evidence.. Creation myth being confirmed by scientific study, not refuted by would be evidence..
Being open minded should not require you to close your eyes to the world around you.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
The world that was "passing away" was the Old Covenant world. Not the world we live in today.
Chewie576 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Don't worry about Jesus and the stupid bible.Just listen to some good music and go get some pussy.Amen.
motorcitystevo 3 years ago
Ever tried reading the Bible? Just once? Try making through a whole Chapter? Try Luke. Maybe you think it is stupid just because you dont understand it. Just aksin. Geting some great and all but short lived.
bander9876 3 years ago
Or go read some Deuteronomy and Leviticus.. and kill some people just for being different.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Or go read some Deuteronomy and Leviticus.. and kill some people just for being different.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago 2
GabrielGZNH, just wondering if you believed in any kind of universal morals. You obviously believe killing is wrong, but if we humans are nothing more than another species plodding along the evolutionary highway, why should we behave any different than our savage evolutionary cousins? Ultimately what would you appeal to so as to say that killing someone wrong? The law??? That can be changed by anybody who has the power to do so. So???? Does human-made law make things universally right or wrong??
jnana123 3 years ago
why would anything be universaly right or wrong i dont know where you got that idea but it sure wasnt from observing human behavior even among christians
Ofrolvi 3 years ago
[part 1]: Who says that we all too different from our (savage) evolutionary cousins.. Humans are social animals, in groupes there are higherarchies, and unspoken rules (You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours).. If altruism seems to be more common in humans it's because we have a greater ability to plan ahead and think of complex solutions.. I dont steal for many reasons (partly because I dont want to get cought, partly because I dont want to lose my reputation,) [continued..]
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
[part 2]: I think a major reason I (we) dont (dont want others to) steal (murder, cheat, etc.. do harm to others) it because I (we) don't want to live in a world where these things are accepted.. (because it could happen to us one day)
Look at a wolf pack... A wolf pack is not as socially advanced as we are, mainly because they are not as intelligent.. But some basic rules, and reasons for those rules are evident.. (steal, kill, endanger the pack, you will be outcast, or killed)
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
[Part 3]: It comes down to this.. activities like Stealing, lying, cheating, killing, and a whole lot of other behavior which we would call immoral are all dangerious.. Being immoral is Dangerious, and if you want to survive in a social group, you had better not piss the group off.. So when you ask me, "How do we know murder is wrong without God's word?" I would say, "How do you know jumping in front of traffic is wrong without God's word?"
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Deeming humans/animals smart or stupid is not the same as calling something "universally right or wrong". These are categorically different things. Agreed, humans can be stupid. But animals only kill out of the need for food or out of self defense. Mark Twain said that humans are the only animals that have the ability to blush, or need to. Please address what constitutes universal right or wrong in your opinion. (or good/evil) Dostoyevsky said, "Anything is permissible if there is no God."
jnana123 3 years ago
People that believe in god are responsible for more killing and fucked up behavior than anybody else.That goes for all religions."Anything is permissible if you believe in god" ME .I've never been scared by an Atheist.Bible thumping people on the other hand are weird and scary.There is no evidence that any gods exist.
motorcitystevo 3 years ago
jnana123, If this is directed toward me, than I have a question for YOU about right and wrong.. Is rape wrong only because God makes it wrong, or does God describe rape as wrong, because rape is already a universally immoral act without God?
If the first is true, than could God have made Honesty and Charity immoral if he chose to, and rape a virtuious act?.. If the second is true, than morality and immorality are independant from God, and therefore not created by god..
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
GabrielGZNH, I would argue that the first scenario is true. Being a Christian, I believe God brought everything into existence, hence a universal morality was not something that God just saw that he liked and decided to adopt as His own rules. The Bible teaches us how to best get along with each other because it reflects God's character, which is unchangeable and perfect. All of man's problems are rooted in sin. But one day God will redeem it all back and in His own time make it right again.
jnana123 3 years ago
So, in saying that God defines what is both moral and immoral, you are saying that God selected some things like Murder, Theft, and Rape.. Chose to MAKE tham immoral.. And the only reason you do not Rape, kill, lie and steal is because God told you not to... There is no intrinsic benefit in being Good, other than to win the favor of God.. And if God told you to Rape your best friend, you would do so.. Because HIS definition is the only one that matters.. Correct?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
The Bible tells us to be holy as He is holy, to be "holy in every aspect of (our) conduct" (see 1 Peter 1:15-16) I believe that God asks us to model himself (and God is immutable), which was best modeled for us in Christ. He didn't arbitrarily say what was right or wrong. Just think, if mankind would just do what the Bible commmands us to do, many problems would go away.
1. AIDS, STD's, teenage pregnancies, etc.
2. Most single parent households that leads to crime and drugs in the kids.
jnana123 3 years ago
"He didn't arbitrarily say what was right or wrong."
Meaning he had to choose from activities which could be harmful of helpful (right or wrong).. Meaning that right and wrong are independent from God..
The VALUE of right and wrong are independent from God.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I love you.
motorcitystevo 3 years ago
Good Biblical truths here. This world is not our home.
librarymound 3 years ago
You didn't get my point at all. My point is: not everyone worships God or lives a religious life solely because they are living their earthly life FOR the afterlife. I was trying to prove your opinion wrong that religious people are ONLY waiting for the end. Yes, we believe in an end and new life, BUT that doesn't mean we don't think THIS LIFE is ALSO amazing. :-)
AND we feel that being "religious" or "spiritual" makes this life even MORE amazing, while we're here.
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
Megan, If you take your religion seriously and really believe in the end of days, than you should know.. It's all about the second (third?)coming.. Jesus will come back judge the world and establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.. According to Christians, this will be the most important event in the history of the universe.. And more than %40 of American Christians expect it to happen in their lifetime. I don't think I'm wrong in saying that many Christians just cant wait for the world to end.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
American fundamentalism is only about 50-100 years old, along with premillenialist thought. I belong to a more ancient form of Christianity, Anglicanism. Most of us believe that the end will happen, but as Jesus himself says "no one knows the day or the hour". alsoI take very seriously Jesus's prayer that the kingdom of heaven come "on earth as it is in heaven". I don't take this just as the end times, but trying to be the "salt" and the "light", making the world a better place while we're here.
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
*My faith is 2000 years old. So, taking my religion seriously does not necessarily result in being fundamentalist (100 years old). The NT speaks of the end times, but it is very vague. Revelation is a very symbolic text. People try to build a systematic theology out of it and it doesn't make sense. So, I don't do that and neither does my pastor. We look at the symbolism and interpret that and focus on what's important: Jesus. When he comes, great, but in the meantime, we have to live good lives
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
Megan, you can pick and choose which parts of the Bible you want... But Armageddon, is pretty much the pay off to the whole thing.. And thats whats going to happen if Jesus comes back (according to the NT)
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
[continued..} moderate in religious zeal as most states, a law was made in the latter end of the last century, repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine and imprisonment upon all blasphemers of any book of the Old Testament or New. Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating the divine authority of those books."
~Founding father Ethan Allen
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
"There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt inspiration of all the books of the Old and New testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries in Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In England itself, it is punished by boring through the tongue with a hot poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I believe, upon the whole is as temperate and [cont...]
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
American fundamentalism has been around longer than America. The Puritans were among the most fundamentalist people in history.. They believed that hand of God held them up, waiting to be crushed or dropped at any time.. This kind of paranoia led to witch hunts, and torture.. The kind of torture that would only be carried out by people who believed they were doing God's work.. These were the left overs of the dark ages in Europe, where over 600 years of religious idiocy stunted human progress.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
this is exactly what i've been telling people! thanks, this is great!
bengal408 3 years ago
Great reminder. Our first priority in life as Christians is to glorify Christ and make Him known to others, through truth and love. So while our next president is not one who most Christians find hard to support- he deserves our respect as America's leader, ordained by God. Where you have differences, voice them tempered with wisdom and love. Country is not first, God is first.
lisa9330 3 years ago
Sovereignty of God. Financial market crash, worst sense the Great Depression, right before the election. Democrats are always favored in a recession... Coincidence?
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
Why not just pray for a solution.. watch?v=btBF8jp6IgE .... Oh right prayer doesn't work..
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
The comment I just made was for GabrielGZNH
jdawg1130 3 years ago
Thank you, John Piper! What an awesome reminder that God is and will always remain on His throne! How easy it is to freak out when we forget God's sovereignty over this world. Yes, we need to use our voices (and votes) to seek justice for the weakest among us. But, God can and will use the outcome of this election to bring about His glory. Whatever personal effects may be caused by this election, we must remember that God has promised to provide for our every need!
growing08 3 years ago 2
Thank you, Mr.Piper, for this word. Our eyes should be on the Lord today knowing that whatever happens to America we have an everlasting kingdom. And by the way, this economy may be in crisis, but God's economy is not. The earth is the Lord's and everything it contains. We can know as God's children that we have a solid rock on which to stand in shaky times.
LRM1108 3 years ago
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dont use religion to make major life choices.. it's just stupid.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Don't use religion? It's obvious you have never read the BIBLE, I'm going to be praying for you. Romans 6:23
jdawg1130 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The Bible is an irrelevant old book of fables..
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
GabrielGZNH, why do you come to a John Piper video, which is going to be viewed almost exclusively by religious people, and start bashing religion? Do you have nothing better to do with your time?
aggie4life1234 3 years ago
Every now an then I listen to religious people speak, trying to see if they have ANYTHING of value to say.. But it's hard to relevant when you base you life on the supernatural.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
If you don't want to listen to religious people, why did you watch Piper on YouTube? You can say you don't want to talk to religious people all you want, but the obvious question is, why are you posting so many comments? No one is forcing you to.
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
I didn't say I don't want to watch religious videos, I didn't say I don't want to talk to religious people.. Thats pretty clear.. I choose to post comments, because I think religion is an important topic.. And for far too long, the only people talking about it have been religious people.. Anymore questions?
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Why are you so angry?
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
I'm not the one who is spending their whole life waiting for the world to end.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
a) you didn't answer my question.
b) neither am i, nor most Christians I know. If heaven or hell turned out to not exist, I would still live every day of my blessed life as a Christian b/c I know God, he is real, and his love has transformed every day of my life for the better. :-)
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
PS) It is possible to be religious without even believing in an afterlife. Most ancient religions were that way, including the most ancient form of Yahweh worship, in the Old Testament. The Old Testament doesn't start talking about any positive or meaningful afterlife until like Daniel (i.e. resurrection of the dead), which is written pretty late, in the Babylonian exile most people think. There's a passing remark in Job. The afterlife is certainly not central to O.T. religion.
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
I didn't say anything about the afterlife in the Old Testament.. I think the idea of a person surviving their own death is kinda ridiculous.. But that is not the only ridiculous idea the Bible (OT & NT) have to offer. But it is an example of the accumulating myths of the Bible, like the assumed ascension of the Virgin Mary into heaven.. And the Vaticans stance on Purgatory.. The idea of an afterlife is not the only supernatural aspect of the Bible. And not original to the Bible either.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Here is your answer.. I am not angry, I think life is amazing.. And dont need magical stories to make the world amazing..
You ARE waiting for the world to end, thats what happens when Jesus comes back (Armageddon).. So just keep on waiting..
You KNOW God (jesus?) exists in the same sence that ancient Greeks KNEW Zeus and Apollo existed.. Probably also in the same sence that The Zodiac Killer KNEW his neighbors dog was possessed by a demon and telling him to kill people.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
It takes just as much belief or maybe more to believe their is no God as it does to believe there is one. Both are belief systems. Personally i find it extreamely hard to believe the world and universe we live in is accidental. From the sub atomic level to the solar system level, the complexity and perfect unison in which everything runs is fantastic. There must be somebody who designed this.
This is one of the main things in life pointing me to a belief in God. Consider it. It's important.
propertyofGod7 3 years ago
Atheism is not a belief system.. It is a single answer to the single question "Do you believe in God?".. Any person, who does not have a positive belief in any God is an Atheist, even Agnostics.. You can be a liberal or conservative, pro-abortion or anti-abortion.. If you don't claim a belief in God/Gods you are a non-theist..
To say that there is an all powerful all knowing being controlling the universe is an extraordinary claim, which requires extraordinary evidence. [continued...]
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
PropertyofGod7, I am sorry to burst your bubble.. But the universe does NOT work in unison (At least not as a place for life to flourish) %99.9999 of the universe is a freezing vacuum %0.000001 is hotter than the surface of the sun.. We live on a knife edge, that is shrinking.. The universe is NOT designed for us.. life grows in the only places it can. Which are not very many. %99 of every species that has ever lived on this planet has gone extinct. All good things come to an end. Such is life.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Co 2:14
DistracticusPrime 3 years ago
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisioned ; yet we have not advanced on inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
I think you were using the tertiary definition:
3. strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles.
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
1.a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.
philotheosMegan 3 years ago
Thank you John Piper for bringing me back to the one important issue - The Gospel. Well said.
36310 3 years ago 3
Obama Nation = Abomination....get it? good.
FlyMama 3 years ago
abortion and homosexuality is God's judgment... but yes... i agree... we need to stand against these abominations. they are disgusting and dispicable.
wolbifl 3 years ago
Believers should be "worked up." Obama advocates for homosexuals. Homosexuality is an abomination to our God (1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:1) and Christians should be outraged! Obama advocates for partial birth abortion, a procedure in which scissors are jammed into a baby's skull and the brains are sucked out. Our God values the lives of the unborn (Psalm 139: 13-16). We should be outraged! If Christians do little/stand on the sidelines we can expect God's impending judgment on this nation.
arielle167 3 years ago
McCain does not want Roe overturned and he has no problem with gay "civil unions." Plus he is a gun grabber.
I voted for Baldwin.
Alexandra22773 3 years ago 2
You also said that "keeping us free from socialism IS as important as spreading the gospel" that is a heresy of all heresies. Romans 1:16 says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not democracy or any other form of government. Also you said, "this John Piper is scary in the fact that he does not see an end coming to free expression of Christianity when Hussein wins this John Piper needs a wakeup call." John Piper does see that end coming. You need to do better research.
wolbifl 3 years ago
second... You said "We will NOT recover from the anti Christian movement when Hussein, Pelosi and Reid are in charge." I completely disagree. If you look at church history the church has always flurished the most when it is under persecution. The church is growing at incredible rates in countries like China where Christianity is outlawed. Also i would like to add that when Christ comes back riding on a horse slicing people with a sword for a tongue is going to be a wonderful recovery...
wolbifl 3 years ago
first of all Piper never said that who the leader is isn't important. He was simply stating that God is in control of the situation. And you tell me where human free will is in Romans 13:1-2
"Rom 13:1-2 ESV Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."
wolbifl 3 years ago
The US provides the beacon of freedom to the world and MANY soldiers have paid the price to do this. And I do have an allegiance to my country as do I to Jesus. The US has done more for the spreading of Christianity than any other in history.
ucfknight05 3 years ago
Keeping us free from socialism IS as important as speading the gospel... this John Piper is scary in the fact that he does not see an end coming to free expression of Christianity when Hussein wins this John Piper needs a wakeup call.
Don't think it can't happen? Look at Cuba, Germany and Russia... ALL Christian until taken over by slick talking, men of the people... and then they shut down the churches, because Socialism is the religion of the state, NOT Christianity.
ucfknight05 3 years ago
We will NOT recover from the anti Christian movement when Hussein, Pelosi and Reid are in charge. Don't forget Jesus believed in governement (Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's) and you only get to live on earth ONCE! I'd prefer to live in a free society thank you very much. How many missionaries are coming out of Russia and China? A free market system allows for prosperity and the ability to preach the gospel all over the world.
ucfknight05 3 years ago
Don't worry so much. Neither your freedom nor the free market are in danger, that's just hyperpartisan backwash from fox news talking to you. You'll be fine. You just have to pay higher taxes for four years, that's all.
aggie4life1234 3 years ago
Evangilists will go broke .Oh no !
motorcitystevo 3 years ago
no where in constitution does it speak of seperation of church and state. That comes from letters from founders such as Thomas Jefferson and was said that Government should not get into religion not vice versa... Constitution says that government will not endorse a religion... get your facts straight...
ucfknight05 3 years ago
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" Is that not legal grounds for the separation of church and state?
Any law respecting an establishment of religion would be the incorporation of religion and the state.. The first amendment is clearly there to prevent this.
GabrielGZNH 3 years ago
Who your leader is IS very important. God allows humans free will and allows for stupid people to vote for child murdering radicals. Once this clown Hussein is in the "whitehouse" Christianity, the military, pro-lifers, foundations of American institutions will be persecuted like you've never seen. So voting is VERY important, this election IS the saving of the US or the downfall.
ucfknight05 3 years ago
Religion should have no part in the founding of any American institution.According to our founding fathers.Duh !
motorcitystevo 3 years ago
Seriously, y'all, it's really hard to be in this world, yet not be of it. I shall keep my eyes on God, do my part and trust that God is still in control:)
DelilahClark 3 years ago
When your eyes are on god which direction are you staring in ? Do your part and help get religion out of all politics.I don't want a president that believes in Noahs ark and talking snakes.
motorcitystevo 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
this guy should lay off the crack, and take a reality pill - it even says that in evangelicalchristian - verse 1
conman2317 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I figured it was one of those Christian wackos...
Beadbud5000 3 years ago