philosophy of will, 2.0

[Israe5l]

By the way, there seems to be two types of metaphor. One is the impressionistic one which describes, such as "Richard is a lion". Another is a surrealistic one which creates new meaning such as "this drink is dynamite".

[Israe5l]

@pyrrho314

I am thinking the distinciton of model/metaphor is a important one for you. Because thats how you harness the subjective and the objctive. But really, thats sloppy philosophy.

[pyrrho314]

didn't you bring up the distinction in the first place? I think modeling and metaphor making are the same activity, end of story... any threshold is somewhat arbitrary, very carefully constructed metaphors we call models. but that's not a fundamental distinction.

[Israe5l]

There aren't many "very carefully constructed metaphors".

Models are completely structurely defined. And metaphors are a bit emotive. Even Aristotle (or Donald Davidson) will agree with me.

[pyrrho314]

What model is complete?

[Israe5l]

Newtonian mechanics is a complete model.

I thought you wil give me a carefully constructed metaphor.

[Israe5l]

Models and metaphors are different. Models are a complete description (even mathematical). While metaphors, even its meaninig shifts around. You can say "you are stepping on my foot" to show that he wants the other person's foot to be removed. Or you can say "you are stepping on my foot" to mean some kind of game and the other guy is breaking some rule.

[donnachaidh]

Well said in this video. My point wasn't that learning these systems is worthless, but that we necessarily on an individual basis decide what the worth of it is to ourselves. Not nihilistic, just subjectivist.

If your focus in philosophical thinking is ethical, and mine is to entertain myself and "expand my thinking" as an end in itself, we'll necessarily view questions like free will differently. If behavioral application isn't the goal, we can ignore the urge to ignore useless doubt.

[pyrrho314]

I saw that, see that, but I don't like discussing it as if that means it's not knowledge but "just" subjective... all the alleged objective knowledge, even that of it which really could be called knowledge, is subjective. So it's not at all there lacks a justification, there is j ustificaiton, meaning, worth, reason, all of it, and it's all subjective... even hard core tangibility... that's a type of subjectivism and it's just as great at engineering as it was to make us think it was objective.

[donnachaidh]

If you say that, I'm not sure I see what you're disagreeing with. There is a justification, a meaning, a worth, all of it -- to you. And there is all of it to me. Even where those things appear exactly congruent (for example: "reality for all intents and purposes exists," or "a is a"), they don't cease to be separate subjective assessments of an inaccessible (directly at least) objective reality.

Value judgments, which are one more step removed from this by not even appearing to exist as

[donnachaidh]

real things in what appears to use to be the real world, are necessarily contained within whatever constitutes the mind making them. So your idea of the worth of learning is a process confined to your brain in your body, and mine is a process confined to mine. So there is no Worth, only worths. Which is why I can perform the doublethink of saying there is no point (in what appears to me to be reality) but find a point for myself.

Isn't it possible we're just rationalizing a random compulsion?

[donnachaidh]

Also, sorry for spamming you with so many comments anyway even though I said I wasn't going to in the video response.

[Cashify]

no, don't be sorry bout that. He LIKES it.

[pyrrho314]

but you are saying there is no point according to a criteria we reject, therefore, there reallly is a point, an actual point.

[donnachaidh]

I don't reject the theoretical framework of an objective world. I treat it as inaccessible to us except by proxy.

"The point" as you portray it depends on a latticework of arbitrary feelings about the usefulness of thought. I don't disagree with them, but if I did (and plenty of people in their behavior appear to) then the "point" fails.

You can easily conjure specific situations to show that thought in this way is useful, but the choice to accept those situations as likely to occur or to

[donnachaidh]

accept extrapolating a general sense of "real usefulness" or "worth" from hypothetical cases is an arbitrary one to someone whose life is more or less satisfying to them, whose survival is unthreatened, and who does not engage in the thinking you argue to have intrinsic merit.

Compare the arguments of the real usefulness of being learned on quantum physics with the arguments for the real usefulness of owning a gun and I think you'll see what I mean. We see what we want to see in judging it.

[Cashify]

oh there's really no end to what we can ignore.

[donnachaidh]

Truer words. Ignoring is the mechanism by which we construct meaningful narratives out of the chaos of experience.

[Cashify]

I see what you mean.

[MJRockX]

It does seem to me though that being guided by a chi, or an ethic or any moral code for behavior dissembles the idea of a will that is free in any effect. Even if the choice is to do what is outside what is considered to be either right or wrong, to be free to choose is I think what the term implies.

[UnhappyTestTubeBaby]

Like 2bsirius, I'm a little lost in this conversation but I have something to add to on will.

In many eastern traditions they have concepts of 'chi' and spirituality that they use to guide themselves in anything from relationships to martial arts. To me, martial arts is all about physics and keeping focus but the idea of chi can guide them in these areas.

On one hand I think its BS, but on the other, does it matter from the practitioner's point of view? To me the idea of freewill is like chi.

[pyrrho314]

the thing is, and this applies with karma, both traditional and western/popularized, that the idea of energy moving around explaining things makes a lot of sense in almost any case. There need not be a physical energy as described that could be measured, but in any system there is in fact energy of the traditional type flowing about. Describing the macroscopic pattern requires things like virtual energies that combine lots of physical factors.

[pyrrho314]

then, using a metaphor, a lot relies on how well it maps to reality, and in so many cases it does... even in something "superficial" and potential fodder for superstition, feng shui studies flows of energies (virtual imo) and comes up with design decisions that... are in fact pleasing and compliment what's really in the macroscopic environment.

The chi flowing along a road outside can be put into a common interface with the potted plants in the windowsill in a common language.

[pyrrho314]

the use of energy-flow metaphors is thus very fruitful helping one remember a system, a school of approach to... whatever, medicine, martial arts.

Especially so in martical arts, imo, because the brain, I think, has built in concepts of flow, and uses these to move energy around the body just like a mouse moves a cursor and the cursor activates programs.

The metaphor becomes literal insofar as our boy maps the metaphor to physical behavior, "move energy to the hand" does in fact activate ...

[pyrrho314]

the hand. Granted you can activate the hand without that thought or preparation, but doing so makes it more conscious.

Given that... of course, allowing such metaphors allows really crazy, ill-mapped use, people to believe in possessions, etc. etc... but then, let them beware how they train themselves.

cheers.

[UnhappyTestTubeBaby]

I didn't mean to start a conversation on chi. I merely meant to present the idea of freewill as a useful metaphor.

Nonetheless, thank you for some interesting insight on energy flow metaphors. I would have to say I agree with everything you've said. It might be interesting to discuss the fallout of using such metaphors, 'crazy, ill-mapped' use of them, a little more.

...

[UnhappyTestTubeBaby]

I'm not sure if the concepts of karma and heaven/hell have been a net benefit. I tend to prefer Greek mythology which seems to emphasizes cleverness and resourcefulness above all else.

Then again, these concepts of right and wrong and justice have proven to be fertile soil for much art and introspection. I guess they're all important steps in the development of our species.

[pyrrho314]

I'm fond of greek myths as well. For karma, I have my own westernized view of it as a metaphor.

[MoreSciFiThanScience]

If some goal, say human time travel, one day turns out to be impossible to apply... I would guess that just doing the research will yeild other breakthroughs that will have some practical application...even if its just some cool mathematics. So regardless of whether the intended goal of the research ultimately cannot be apllied its not a waste of time. Even alchemy is a lesson in the sense that it gives future educators useful anecdotes about the properties of pseudoscience.

[2bsirius]

LINK?

As usual, I'm lost...

[pyrrho314]

I can't be blamed that YT doesn't actually attach it as a reply, I replied! but I do need to remember to put thelink in the description