Yes. Left side is leading the kinetic chain after the transition using the inertia produced during the change of orientation of the motion. It sounds complex but it is very simple and extremely effective.
My only swing thought now is the relationship between my left hip and right hand at the top of the swing. I missed what Mr Hogan was saying for years, "move the lower body at the top of the back swing" I Interpret this in my own way, I hope correctly, as meaning, "let the lower body bring the hands and club to the ball with extra speed gained with the straightening of the left side and compressing the ball. Am I correct in my thinking?
I hope this year will be my best year playing golf ever. It has taken years to find the secret to the swing and now I can't wait to do some damage to my Hcp :)
a few weeks ago the explanation in this video would not have made sense to me. I found my swing :))))) I understood exactly what you say Mr Hogan is doing in his swing; now all I have t do is be consistant. great video!!!!
this is a nice analysis of The Hawk's swing, but may I suggest instead of "lead " and "rear", just use left and right. I think more people would understand, and you may generate more interest at your website...Thanks
Sorry, although some of us may understand this concept ( and I have read Hogan's book Five Fundamentals for years ) this is way beyond the average golfer.
This is merely another highly technical piece of golfing mechanics that the average ( oh I should say the majority of amateur golfers ) will never understand never mind putting it into practice.
The swing takes just seconds, it would take the average guy years to perfect this move, good video but way too complicated for the average golfer.
@jeanmunn This is not a piece of instruction ! This is a description the biokinetics reality of a golf swing motion that is free of conscious thoughts and is a cascade of unintentional biophysics phenomena. Say, for instance, if your setup is good you will swing from the ground up and your ankle joint is the first to respond that sort of automates what happens with another part of hard structure going up.
If you want pieces of useful golf instruction - look e.g. at diagonal stance or presets.
It's about time someone figured out Hogans secret. Apparently some idiot once said that the secret to the golf swing was "in the dirt"! Can you imagine that?
I understand. I've felt and done it. It's like a dance move. Now just make sure you keep that head back where Ben's was - behind the ball - and don't change your spine angle.
@ahbalone Well, yes, but it's an effect, not the goal. If the motion is being led via hard structure of human body from the ground up and make physic (shear forces and inertia, first of all) your friend - you never ever will worry about such details as maintaining spine angle or where you head is.
Hey, Dariusz--what do you have on the conservation of angular momentum, among these vids? Should I just go browse, or can you point me in the right direction?
I think your stuff is pretty much genius, by the way. If people don't want a technical or detailed look at the swing, it seems obvious they should simply go somewhere else where somebody can give them the "one key to great golf," or whatever.
@emncaity Thanks, but it's hardly genius. Just was smart/lucky enough to direct my researches the proper way, I guess.
As per the COAM - the COAM rule has an application in the swing motion as descriptive physical phenomenon, however, it describes neither utterly nor very correctly what happens in reality because COAM refers only to closed systems (e.g. a skater that is in the process of making pirouettes without taking into account external forces that help her in the pirouette).
@emncaity A golfer does not anything to conserve since starts from zero then changes the orientation. We may apply the COAM rule only in case of the very downswing, however, we need to assume there is a closed system which is a bit tough since isolating the downswing from external forces acting on a golfer and a club (such as gravity) may be too abstract but serves well to describe the general intention.
Geez. All that to explain a golf swing. Why don't you just say that he has a well-balanced golf swing? Too many dudes making a golf swing into a bloody mind-boggling scientific theory, thus filling the heads of people with too many conflicting thoughts ending with poor golf hits. Just tell them to keep their eye on the ball and don't swing too hard. Simple and it works.
the video keeps referencing compression - what is being compressed and what is doing the compressing? I thought compression was something experienced only by liquids and gases
@anwealde It's the compression/expansion of human body sides in the sagittal plane; while it is true that human body is not made of gas or liquid or gum it is also not made of titanium; imagine the situation when one side pulls up, muscles and ligaments are expanding and the other side reacts to it with some delay; same when one side stops and the other 'compresses' into it.
You are right to say that Hogan didn't consciously (or Unconsciously) move his hips forward in the back-swing. This video clearly shows that this movement was caused by the way his right leg straightened. From there he went with the momentum and drove his left side forward creating compression.
yes! i have felt this resistance in my left side at impact when playing my best and a complete loosness when playing poorly. i never knew how to work on it. i never thought to slow down the lead side through impact. i can see hogan's left side slow down and allow for a bracing force. i am really compressing the ball so much better after watching this. i'm zipping the ball. great video! best out there.
I believe the essence of any great golf swing is this; you must get the feeling that your arms extend and then finish with your right shoulder facing the target...that is power!! Bobby Jones did the exact same thing!!
IMO the most overlooked aspect of Hogan's swing is the release of his pelvis up through impact, much like Greg Norman. If you look at Nicklaus mid 70's Norman mid 80's, Dustin Johnson today, Phil more and more, you see a definite thrust up through the pelvis. If the pelvis stays tilted down any centrifugal force created stalls, and lag is lost
100% of the golfers including Tiger Woods can't duplicate this swing. There are major details that go unnoticed eg- hogan's physic (unusually long arms), extreme flexibilty (hips are almost double jointed)... View his swing down the line -you see two cheeks at impact with the right heel down on a closed stance! Most people have two cheeks at finish. Very few people can achieve that kind of leverage in balance. It is the Van Gogh of the golf swings! And the ruin of many who try including TW.
@jkjdv Again, agree 100% to what you said. That's why I work in macroscale and Hogan's motion is just a model. I leave microscale issues to instructors. If you read the comments under the vid I think the majority of the issues you touch would become explained.
SPC concept? The positions that Hogan goes into is just a part of a process which was started by his unique setup and correct sequential motion. He doesn't try to get into these positions, it just happens naturally; therefore, it is a mistake to try to get into them. What is more important is the correct feel at each stage of the swing. The elements that you can control in a golf swing are the setup and initial movements of the backswing and the downswing, everything else is just a process.
@jkjdv You're entirely right. The swing motion best is just a cascade of events that follow one another unintentionally - the essence of the automatism of the motion. The best scenario is exactly that described by you - all conscious thoughts are left in the setup phase plus the trigger compression phase (starting the motion). The SPC concept, however, tries to visualize and depict what happens during the optimal biokinetic motion so that one could confront one's feel with mechanical reality.
@Karlipbaum Thank you. As I mentioned many times, not all what Mr.Hogan felt or did match my biokinetic model - although his post-accident motion is definitely the closest one to the ideal. Moreover, Hogan says in '5 Lessons' that (he feels) hands starts the takeaway while in reality we can see he used lagging clubhead takeaway which is main body (from the ground up) generated action, eased and preceeded thanks to the trigger compression.
@h1e2x3. Thanks again so much Dariusz! Almost glad that is the answer. It seems the degree this is required depends on the angle between the shaft and arms at address. Mo Norman, for instance, stretched it out there and the shaft was about parallel to his arms. The plane still tilts with the shoulder dip, but not so much. Google "Mo Norman & Ben Hogan- The Move". Mo does a comedic impression of Hogan's elbow fold. Interesting. Thoughts?
@Tesla108 Yes, and according to my theory Hogan's rear elbow was a pitch transforming into punch - leading until stalling onto the rear hip. Hogan's elbow never went so much in front of the body as those 100% pitch elbow players. Never. And there is a good reason for it - an either-or situation - either the body rotation continues strongly throught the impact zone and the elbow remains on hip or pivot stalls and the elbow must go forward a lot more and end being too straight and too far away.
@h1e2x3: Thanks Dariusz! I have been studying your other videos and blog. I like your intent and approach. Anyway, "one more" question; the Hogan EEP where he appears to pull in his right elbow and pin it near his right hip seems a difficult, or least conscience effort. Can you comment on the natural action leading to this EEP and how it coincides with your "automatic swing" theory? Thanks!! -Ed
@Tesla108 Sincerely - I have not yet found an automatic way for rear elbow joint to behave as Hogan's; noone could do it like Hogan - at least, I've seen noone that was able to do it so well; Hogan was unique, his rear elbow goes down and forward very warly and then stalls on the rear hip and does not move independently on the body until impact - the best scenario one can dream of. Unfortunately, as said, I am not wise enough to say how he did it and if there was conscious process involved.
@Tesla108 look up The SERECT to ben hogan's"laying off the club" video from tombertrand1 he talks about opening up the left cup before down swing to which automaticly bring the right elbow into hip for the down swing plane
As I would watch Hogan's swing there was also this little smooth "hitch" at his transition that I could not dissect. Is this the lateral shifting of the COG? I note the hands are nearly static with a slight shift of the left hip between 1:30-1:32. I always found this part the most mesmerizing part of his swing. There is also the bit where he "locks" his elbow onto the hip, which seems significant.
@Tesla108 The CoG shift in pelvic area happens automatically because the natural limitations in a golfer's hard structure (bones & joints) are being reached from the ground up; to feel it do the following experiment - turn as hard as you can clockwise on your rear leg only (with lead leg in the air) and feel the overtorque not only re-turn anticlockwise but also shift onto your lead leg (you will need to put it on the floor)...that's the power of create torques in the hard structure.
@mcrd2001 Thank you very much for kind words and it is my pleasure that I could be of a small help to your motion. No, I am economist but biophysic researches have become my serious hobby.
Great video and descriptions.It still begs the questions why not ,A)start with your weight compressing on the front hip,knee,ankle and foot.B)Teaching a takeaway that puts you in a perfect inside positions,by which I mean a lift of the arms while wrists cock in front of the body while turning of the torso left.This is what actualy takes place in a pro's backswing you just don't see it because they time the two so well .C) Turn the lead hip and releasing the 2 right angled arms.Much easier.
@secrettogolf Thank you. Answering your questions shortly, which is difficult habving so little space, the SPC concept is just a theoretic macroscale model of automating the motion without the help of any conscious thoughts (except the trigger compression phase to begin the motion). It is not the idea to show which is easiest method of swinging the club but rather a concept based on merging physics with medicine that can be of help in microscale swing motion issues.
At the top of the swing, after hogan tilts back to the left. Iput an arrow up against the left leg. He moves thru it, much like what I'm use to seeing with the tour players of today. After rotation his belt or belly button is just past the arrow. If he just rotated he would pull the ball or slice it. Angle of shaft too steep. What do you think. Or is it possible that the leg going thru the line is just because the size of the quad is turning and the camara is showing it at a different angle?
@TheBillygolfs50 No, you're right. Again, in practice, the rotational part is more elyptic and less pure round since the linear part still is present and has not ended entirely. What is described is theoretical model - like for a machine.
Angle of shaft too steep ? - well, that's debatable with early downswing elbow plane; BTW, I am of the opinion that the best is to be on top of the ball but delivering the club still from inside.
I'd have to agree with a comment blow there is clearly more laterial hip motion forward than your comment, it's not just rotation from the very top. Great job on a new way to explain
@TheBillygolfs50 Thank you. As regards linear part vs rotational part - yes, the border is very fluid and usually the linear part mixes with rotational one; however, in a pure theoretical model the rotational part should follow the linear one, when the downswing axis of rotation has already been established exactly thanks to the linear part. Even Hogan wasn't perfect model, however, was very close, especially post "secret".
@Ben67898765 well...and the purpose is different - it's not an instruction tip but an analysis of perfect motion from abiokinetical point of view on the example of Ben Hogan.
OMG>>its simple,he shifted his weight to his rightpushing the club in a straight line and up.breaking right wrist,pulls down the butt.bringing the right down.when releasing with speed frm the left pulling down and goes back to address wrists formation and moving forward squashing the ball dat creates spin and beautiful flight.i tried it,it works and very accurate..played 67-70 consistently..turning tour pro soon i guess..dont tink too much..but great effort man!
@FairwayJack Thank you. As said before, the SPC concept is not just an attempt to depict Mr.Hogan's swing motion. The primary goal was to learn how biokinetics can influence the degree of possibilities to automate the very motion. Hogan was choosen as a model because his swing contains the most common denominators with my studies. Therefore, there are a few minor differences between the theoretical ideal and Mr.Hogan. The ideal is when the rotational phase follows ENTIRELY linear one.
@goathumper111 Mr.Hogan's motion is just an example (I honestly think that his swing was the closest to the biokinetic ideal); the concept is not an attempt of a description what Hogan did, it is rather a biophysical idea of the most effective swing motion for a two-armed & two-legged creature.
Jesus, honestly this is so far more complicated than need be. I watched Fred Couples a few times and with out any tips other than swing like butter, I started nailing all my shots.. Forget mimicing this, just swing comfortably and get it done... Its all about the short game anyway...
@ollycopter I honestly disagree. Couples' swing is being also subdued to biomechanics, like all humans. "Swing like butter" may be a great swing thoughts but the very motion is a biophysical procedure, if one likes it or not.
@h1e2x3 The point I am trying to make is if you analysis this with all the notes and swing thoughts and positions etc, you cant become a good player I dont think.. What works far better is setup for the shot you want to play and swing like butter.. I shot 80 on the French national course in Lyon today.. My last two rounds were 80 and 84.. Before that I was in the mid 90s.. It was a simple change of attitude..
@ollycopter Fine, but the above notes are just to describe what happens in a biokinetically optimal motion for a human - in any case not to make golfers to think about them while swinging; au contre, the motion should be thoughtless and unintentional. All conscious thoughts should be performed at setup.
Congrats for you progress - wish you break 80 soon - I remember myself how sweet day it was :)
@ollycopter Yeah I thought I had done it... I had 100metres to the pin on final hole and I just leaked left on my SW approach so missed the birdie but missed the par putt on the way back.. I have only just broken 90 so I am over the moon at the moment.. Putting is my weakness lately. From a purley biomechanical standpoint this video is interesting, but I know there are many people who will be at the range trying to implement this :-) I was one of them lol....
At 1:22 you can see maximum tension the left arm is aligned with the lower left leg and all muscles are tight as a banjo string from left heel to left hand. From there tension is increased even further by turning hips to target, The rest is automated - lag, sequence, weight shift, secondary axis tilt.
Hogan said that tension developed in the backswing is the key to the downswing making it "almost automatic". If the downswing can be automated then what is the point of endlessly dissecting body positions ?
Well, those wo are in microscale will do it endlessly; in order to be above it and see such things like you point out now, one needs to go to the macroscale level. IMO.
Your 2nd expansion phase (pure rotation) is too early. From the face-on view any Hogan swing demonstrates that the furthest left point of the hips is not reached until the left arm is at least 45 degrees below parallel to the ground. In other words, the rotation is still combined with the lateral movement further along than you suggest. I would argue as well the rear (right) side is never passive, but is constantly thrusting off the ground and upward to the finish. Note driving right foot
Good points. However, the SPC concept is not just an attempt to depict Mr.Hogan's swing motion. The primary goal was to learn how biokinetics can influence the degree of possibilities to automate the very motion. Hogan was choosen as a model because his swing contains the most common denominators with my studies. Therefore, there are a few minor differences between the theoretical ideal and Mr.Hogan.
I would guess that the point of a theoretical ideal would be to provide a practical application. In that sense it would be advisable to come up with examples that exhibit the specific details of the theory. the " few minor differences" that you refer to are not minor at all, but instead are essential to anyone trying to make a real golf swing. The timing, amount, direction and duration of lower body movement during the swing, especially in transition and the downswing, is critical.
Sometimes huge differences in microscale are still minor differences in macroscale. I do not deal with microscale details. The idea of subduing the downswing to rotational motion entirely and only is mechanically perfect and I believe an average human can perform it. Of course, there must be a linear motion because we're bipedals. The trick is not to melt these motions or melt them as less as possible (Hogan).
As per timing issues - we should try always to find ways to eliminate them totally.
Yes. Left side is leading the kinetic chain after the transition using the inertia produced during the change of orientation of the motion. It sounds complex but it is very simple and extremely effective.
h1e2x3 1 week ago 2
My only swing thought now is the relationship between my left hip and right hand at the top of the swing. I missed what Mr Hogan was saying for years, "move the lower body at the top of the back swing" I Interpret this in my own way, I hope correctly, as meaning, "let the lower body bring the hands and club to the ball with extra speed gained with the straightening of the left side and compressing the ball. Am I correct in my thinking?
iandavidson1 1 week ago
I hope this year will be my best year playing golf ever. It has taken years to find the secret to the swing and now I can't wait to do some damage to my Hcp :)
iandavidson1 1 week ago
@iandavidson1 Sure it will be. The secret is merging physics and anatomy the correct way and not e.g. conscious thoughts or a feel-based motion.
h1e2x3 1 week ago
a few weeks ago the explanation in this video would not have made sense to me. I found my swing :))))) I understood exactly what you say Mr Hogan is doing in his swing; now all I have t do is be consistant. great video!!!!
iandavidson1 1 week ago
@iandavidson1 Glad the concept can be of a help to you. Thanks for a good comment.
h1e2x3 1 week ago
This old fella will never make it.
danthemanwhocancan 1 week ago
The music is depressing.
timmylee4699 4 weeks ago
this is a nice analysis of The Hawk's swing, but may I suggest instead of "lead " and "rear", just use left and right. I think more people would understand, and you may generate more interest at your website...Thanks
ElvisWoods 1 month ago
@ElvisWoods Thank you very much. I use the notions "lead" and "rear" in order to make it more universal; not all of us are right-handed persons.
h1e2x3 1 month ago
Many thanks for this very valuable video. This one is also brilliant:
Laurie Montague Swing the Golf Club and Stop the Fat Shot
Jitpring 1 month ago
@Jitpring Thank you foor nice comment and for the link.
h1e2x3 1 month ago
Sorry, although some of us may understand this concept ( and I have read Hogan's book Five Fundamentals for years ) this is way beyond the average golfer.
This is merely another highly technical piece of golfing mechanics that the average ( oh I should say the majority of amateur golfers ) will never understand never mind putting it into practice.
The swing takes just seconds, it would take the average guy years to perfect this move, good video but way too complicated for the average golfer.
jeanmunn 1 month ago
@jeanmunn This is not a piece of instruction ! This is a description the biokinetics reality of a golf swing motion that is free of conscious thoughts and is a cascade of unintentional biophysics phenomena. Say, for instance, if your setup is good you will swing from the ground up and your ankle joint is the first to respond that sort of automates what happens with another part of hard structure going up.
If you want pieces of useful golf instruction - look e.g. at diagonal stance or presets.
h1e2x3 1 month ago
Absolutely masterful. May I use this for my channel? thx
EagleEyeGolfer 2 months ago
@EagleEyeGolfer Thanks. Be my guest :)
h1e2x3 2 months ago
Ive finally worked out the spc concept. Dj you are a genius..
kevskigolf 2 months ago 6
@kevskigolf Thank you, but I am hardy genius, more just observant, obstinate and not caring about dogs that bark at the Moon :)
h1e2x3 2 months ago
Whatever........ luv the mute button.
peejay3 3 months ago
It's about time someone figured out Hogans secret. Apparently some idiot once said that the secret to the golf swing was "in the dirt"! Can you imagine that?
holyfuckareyoustupid 5 months ago
@holyfuckareyoustupid It is.
peejay3 3 months ago
The secret to golf is found in the hands.
martinavizcomm 5 months ago
I understand. I've felt and done it. It's like a dance move. Now just make sure you keep that head back where Ben's was - behind the ball - and don't change your spine angle.
ahbalone 6 months ago
@ahbalone Well, yes, but it's an effect, not the goal. If the motion is being led via hard structure of human body from the ground up and make physic (shear forces and inertia, first of all) your friend - you never ever will worry about such details as maintaining spine angle or where you head is.
h1e2x3 6 months ago 2
@ahbalone the spine angle does seem to alter slightly but the head does stay behind the ball (for the most part) til struck
HK83IE 2 months ago
Hey, Dariusz--what do you have on the conservation of angular momentum, among these vids? Should I just go browse, or can you point me in the right direction?
I think your stuff is pretty much genius, by the way. If people don't want a technical or detailed look at the swing, it seems obvious they should simply go somewhere else where somebody can give them the "one key to great golf," or whatever.
emncaity 7 months ago
@emncaity Thanks, but it's hardly genius. Just was smart/lucky enough to direct my researches the proper way, I guess.
As per the COAM - the COAM rule has an application in the swing motion as descriptive physical phenomenon, however, it describes neither utterly nor very correctly what happens in reality because COAM refers only to closed systems (e.g. a skater that is in the process of making pirouettes without taking into account external forces that help her in the pirouette).
h1e2x3 7 months ago 2
@emncaity A golfer does not anything to conserve since starts from zero then changes the orientation. We may apply the COAM rule only in case of the very downswing, however, we need to assume there is a closed system which is a bit tough since isolating the downswing from external forces acting on a golfer and a club (such as gravity) may be too abstract but serves well to describe the general intention.
h1e2x3 7 months ago 4
Geez. All that to explain a golf swing. Why don't you just say that he has a well-balanced golf swing? Too many dudes making a golf swing into a bloody mind-boggling scientific theory, thus filling the heads of people with too many conflicting thoughts ending with poor golf hits. Just tell them to keep their eye on the ball and don't swing too hard. Simple and it works.
MrTruthhurts777 7 months ago
@MrTruthhurts777 The vid is not just another dumb swing tip, but is aimed at describing biokinetics of a proper motion (on Mr.Hogan's example).
h1e2x3 7 months ago
@h1e2x3 Okay. Fair enough! Maybe I just prefer a simpler explanation. Anyway, thanks for posting the video! Happy golfing.
MrTruthhurts777 7 months ago
@MrTruthhurts777 Same to you, mate.
h1e2x3 7 months ago
I can see from this video that tiger copy his this man golf swing~
sfv6 7 months ago
@sfv6 yep, but without much success
h1e2x3 7 months ago
the video keeps referencing compression - what is being compressed and what is doing the compressing? I thought compression was something experienced only by liquids and gases
anwealde 8 months ago
@anwealde It's the compression/expansion of human body sides in the sagittal plane; while it is true that human body is not made of gas or liquid or gum it is also not made of titanium; imagine the situation when one side pulls up, muscles and ligaments are expanding and the other side reacts to it with some delay; same when one side stops and the other 'compresses' into it.
h1e2x3 8 months ago 5
Whats the name of the song?
remmy100 8 months ago
@remmy100 Profondamente, Nel Mostro - Part 1 by Ennio Morricone
h1e2x3 8 months ago
You are right to say that Hogan didn't consciously (or Unconsciously) move his hips forward in the back-swing. This video clearly shows that this movement was caused by the way his right leg straightened. From there he went with the momentum and drove his left side forward creating compression.
DASH1ful 9 months ago 4
@DASH1ful Not a word less, not a word more.
h1e2x3 9 months ago
yes! i have felt this resistance in my left side at impact when playing my best and a complete loosness when playing poorly. i never knew how to work on it. i never thought to slow down the lead side through impact. i can see hogan's left side slow down and allow for a bracing force. i am really compressing the ball so much better after watching this. i'm zipping the ball. great video! best out there.
alonsoxabilfc 10 months ago 22
@alonsoxabilfc Thank you very much. I am happy you found the info helpful.
h1e2x3 10 months ago
@alonsoxabilfc excellent analysis
HK83IE 2 months ago
I believe the essence of any great golf swing is this; you must get the feeling that your arms extend and then finish with your right shoulder facing the target...that is power!! Bobby Jones did the exact same thing!!
watertonrivers 1 year ago
IMO the most overlooked aspect of Hogan's swing is the release of his pelvis up through impact, much like Greg Norman. If you look at Nicklaus mid 70's Norman mid 80's, Dustin Johnson today, Phil more and more, you see a definite thrust up through the pelvis. If the pelvis stays tilted down any centrifugal force created stalls, and lag is lost
arniepga 1 year ago
100% of the golfers including Tiger Woods can't duplicate this swing. There are major details that go unnoticed eg- hogan's physic (unusually long arms), extreme flexibilty (hips are almost double jointed)... View his swing down the line -you see two cheeks at impact with the right heel down on a closed stance! Most people have two cheeks at finish. Very few people can achieve that kind of leverage in balance. It is the Van Gogh of the golf swings! And the ruin of many who try including TW.
jkjdv 1 year ago
@jkjdv Again, agree 100% to what you said. That's why I work in macroscale and Hogan's motion is just a model. I leave microscale issues to instructors. If you read the comments under the vid I think the majority of the issues you touch would become explained.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
SPC concept? The positions that Hogan goes into is just a part of a process which was started by his unique setup and correct sequential motion. He doesn't try to get into these positions, it just happens naturally; therefore, it is a mistake to try to get into them. What is more important is the correct feel at each stage of the swing. The elements that you can control in a golf swing are the setup and initial movements of the backswing and the downswing, everything else is just a process.
jkjdv 1 year ago
@jkjdv You're entirely right. The swing motion best is just a cascade of events that follow one another unintentionally - the essence of the automatism of the motion. The best scenario is exactly that described by you - all conscious thoughts are left in the setup phase plus the trigger compression phase (starting the motion). The SPC concept, however, tries to visualize and depict what happens during the optimal biokinetic motion so that one could confront one's feel with mechanical reality.
h1e2x3 1 year ago 9
@Karlipbaum Thank you. As I mentioned many times, not all what Mr.Hogan felt or did match my biokinetic model - although his post-accident motion is definitely the closest one to the ideal. Moreover, Hogan says in '5 Lessons' that (he feels) hands starts the takeaway while in reality we can see he used lagging clubhead takeaway which is main body (from the ground up) generated action, eased and preceeded thanks to the trigger compression.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
@h1e2x3. Thanks again so much Dariusz! Almost glad that is the answer. It seems the degree this is required depends on the angle between the shaft and arms at address. Mo Norman, for instance, stretched it out there and the shaft was about parallel to his arms. The plane still tilts with the shoulder dip, but not so much. Google "Mo Norman & Ben Hogan- The Move". Mo does a comedic impression of Hogan's elbow fold. Interesting. Thoughts?
Tesla108 1 year ago
@Tesla108 Yes, and according to my theory Hogan's rear elbow was a pitch transforming into punch - leading until stalling onto the rear hip. Hogan's elbow never went so much in front of the body as those 100% pitch elbow players. Never. And there is a good reason for it - an either-or situation - either the body rotation continues strongly throught the impact zone and the elbow remains on hip or pivot stalls and the elbow must go forward a lot more and end being too straight and too far away.
h1e2x3 1 year ago 5
@h1e2x3: Thanks Dariusz! I have been studying your other videos and blog. I like your intent and approach. Anyway, "one more" question; the Hogan EEP where he appears to pull in his right elbow and pin it near his right hip seems a difficult, or least conscience effort. Can you comment on the natural action leading to this EEP and how it coincides with your "automatic swing" theory? Thanks!! -Ed
Tesla108 1 year ago
@Tesla108 Sincerely - I have not yet found an automatic way for rear elbow joint to behave as Hogan's; noone could do it like Hogan - at least, I've seen noone that was able to do it so well; Hogan was unique, his rear elbow goes down and forward very warly and then stalls on the rear hip and does not move independently on the body until impact - the best scenario one can dream of. Unfortunately, as said, I am not wise enough to say how he did it and if there was conscious process involved.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
@Tesla108 look up The SERECT to ben hogan's"laying off the club" video from tombertrand1 he talks about opening up the left cup before down swing to which automaticly bring the right elbow into hip for the down swing plane
hughbear101 1 year ago
As I would watch Hogan's swing there was also this little smooth "hitch" at his transition that I could not dissect. Is this the lateral shifting of the COG? I note the hands are nearly static with a slight shift of the left hip between 1:30-1:32. I always found this part the most mesmerizing part of his swing. There is also the bit where he "locks" his elbow onto the hip, which seems significant.
Tesla108 1 year ago
@Tesla108 The CoG shift in pelvic area happens automatically because the natural limitations in a golfer's hard structure (bones & joints) are being reached from the ground up; to feel it do the following experiment - turn as hard as you can clockwise on your rear leg only (with lead leg in the air) and feel the overtorque not only re-turn anticlockwise but also shift onto your lead leg (you will need to put it on the floor)...that's the power of create torques in the hard structure.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
that's coolest explanation of damned golf swing ever. And it works !!! thanks, Dariuz !
hoganfan100 1 year ago 26
@hoganfan100 Thank you very much, John.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
My guess is you have clean hands.
cybermarsactual 1 year ago 2
Great vid, wonderful analysis; it definately helped my swing. Are you a mechanical engineer?
mcrd2001 1 year ago 2
@mcrd2001 Thank you very much for kind words and it is my pleasure that I could be of a small help to your motion. No, I am economist but biophysic researches have become my serious hobby.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
@h1e2x3 Long live economists with a biomechanical bent.
mcrd2001 1 year ago 2
Great video and descriptions.It still begs the questions why not ,A)start with your weight compressing on the front hip,knee,ankle and foot.B)Teaching a takeaway that puts you in a perfect inside positions,by which I mean a lift of the arms while wrists cock in front of the body while turning of the torso left.This is what actualy takes place in a pro's backswing you just don't see it because they time the two so well .C) Turn the lead hip and releasing the 2 right angled arms.Much easier.
ABC
secrettogolf 1 year ago 2
@secrettogolf Thank you. Answering your questions shortly, which is difficult habving so little space, the SPC concept is just a theoretic macroscale model of automating the motion without the help of any conscious thoughts (except the trigger compression phase to begin the motion). It is not the idea to show which is easiest method of swinging the club but rather a concept based on merging physics with medicine that can be of help in microscale swing motion issues.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
At the top of the swing, after hogan tilts back to the left. Iput an arrow up against the left leg. He moves thru it, much like what I'm use to seeing with the tour players of today. After rotation his belt or belly button is just past the arrow. If he just rotated he would pull the ball or slice it. Angle of shaft too steep. What do you think. Or is it possible that the leg going thru the line is just because the size of the quad is turning and the camara is showing it at a different angle?
TheBillygolfs50 1 year ago
@TheBillygolfs50 No, you're right. Again, in practice, the rotational part is more elyptic and less pure round since the linear part still is present and has not ended entirely. What is described is theoretical model - like for a machine.
Angle of shaft too steep ? - well, that's debatable with early downswing elbow plane; BTW, I am of the opinion that the best is to be on top of the ball but delivering the club still from inside.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
I'd have to agree with a comment blow there is clearly more laterial hip motion forward than your comment, it's not just rotation from the very top. Great job on a new way to explain
TheBillygolfs50 1 year ago
@TheBillygolfs50 Thank you. As regards linear part vs rotational part - yes, the border is very fluid and usually the linear part mixes with rotational one; however, in a pure theoretical model the rotational part should follow the linear one, when the downswing axis of rotation has already been established exactly thanks to the linear part. Even Hogan wasn't perfect model, however, was very close, especially post "secret".
h1e2x3 1 year ago
this is all analysed way to muc its all in 5 lessons and power golf to be made simple
Ben67898765 1 year ago
@Ben67898765 well...and the purpose is different - it's not an instruction tip but an analysis of perfect motion from abiokinetical point of view on the example of Ben Hogan.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
OMG>>its simple,he shifted his weight to his rightpushing the club in a straight line and up.breaking right wrist,pulls down the butt.bringing the right down.when releasing with speed frm the left pulling down and goes back to address wrists formation and moving forward squashing the ball dat creates spin and beautiful flight.i tried it,it works and very accurate..played 67-70 consistently..turning tour pro soon i guess..dont tink too much..but great effort man!
DFORCE8228305 1 year ago
@DFORCE8228305 Thanks and best of luck in your golf carrer !
h1e2x3 1 year ago
Nice vid and analysis...but I don't agree the 2nd expansion phase is pure rotational...he is making a subtle lateral (linear) move to his left
FairwayJack 1 year ago
@FairwayJack Thank you. As said before, the SPC concept is not just an attempt to depict Mr.Hogan's swing motion. The primary goal was to learn how biokinetics can influence the degree of possibilities to automate the very motion. Hogan was choosen as a model because his swing contains the most common denominators with my studies. Therefore, there are a few minor differences between the theoretical ideal and Mr.Hogan. The ideal is when the rotational phase follows ENTIRELY linear one.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
Interesting. Couldn't he have been driving w/ the right shoulder/side just as well, though? Can we be sure of what he was doing?
goathumper111 1 year ago
@goathumper111 Mr.Hogan's motion is just an example (I honestly think that his swing was the closest to the biokinetic ideal); the concept is not an attempt of a description what Hogan did, it is rather a biophysical idea of the most effective swing motion for a two-armed & two-legged creature.
h1e2x3 1 year ago
Jesus, honestly this is so far more complicated than need be. I watched Fred Couples a few times and with out any tips other than swing like butter, I started nailing all my shots.. Forget mimicing this, just swing comfortably and get it done... Its all about the short game anyway...
ollycopter 1 year ago
@ollycopter I honestly disagree. Couples' swing is being also subdued to biomechanics, like all humans. "Swing like butter" may be a great swing thoughts but the very motion is a biophysical procedure, if one likes it or not.
h1e2x3 1 year ago 2
@h1e2x3 The point I am trying to make is if you analysis this with all the notes and swing thoughts and positions etc, you cant become a good player I dont think.. What works far better is setup for the shot you want to play and swing like butter.. I shot 80 on the French national course in Lyon today.. My last two rounds were 80 and 84.. Before that I was in the mid 90s.. It was a simple change of attitude..
ollycopter 1 year ago
@ollycopter Fine, but the above notes are just to describe what happens in a biokinetically optimal motion for a human - in any case not to make golfers to think about them while swinging; au contre, the motion should be thoughtless and unintentional. All conscious thoughts should be performed at setup.
Congrats for you progress - wish you break 80 soon - I remember myself how sweet day it was :)
h1e2x3 1 year ago
@ollycopter Yeah I thought I had done it... I had 100metres to the pin on final hole and I just leaked left on my SW approach so missed the birdie but missed the par putt on the way back.. I have only just broken 90 so I am over the moon at the moment.. Putting is my weakness lately. From a purley biomechanical standpoint this video is interesting, but I know there are many people who will be at the range trying to implement this :-) I was one of them lol....
ollycopter 1 year ago
At 1:22 you can see maximum tension the left arm is aligned with the lower left leg and all muscles are tight as a banjo string from left heel to left hand. From there tension is increased even further by turning hips to target, The rest is automated - lag, sequence, weight shift, secondary axis tilt.
tm22721 2 years ago 3
Yep, torques & overtorques. Merging Newtonian basic physics with anatomy. Great remarks.
h1e2x3 2 years ago 18
Hogan said that tension developed in the backswing is the key to the downswing making it "almost automatic". If the downswing can be automated then what is the point of endlessly dissecting body positions ?
tm22721 2 years ago 2
Well, those wo are in microscale will do it endlessly; in order to be above it and see such things like you point out now, one needs to go to the macroscale level. IMO.
h1e2x3 2 years ago
Your 2nd expansion phase (pure rotation) is too early. From the face-on view any Hogan swing demonstrates that the furthest left point of the hips is not reached until the left arm is at least 45 degrees below parallel to the ground. In other words, the rotation is still combined with the lateral movement further along than you suggest. I would argue as well the rear (right) side is never passive, but is constantly thrusting off the ground and upward to the finish. Note driving right foot
wdefrancesco 2 years ago
Good points. However, the SPC concept is not just an attempt to depict Mr.Hogan's swing motion. The primary goal was to learn how biokinetics can influence the degree of possibilities to automate the very motion. Hogan was choosen as a model because his swing contains the most common denominators with my studies. Therefore, there are a few minor differences between the theoretical ideal and Mr.Hogan.
h1e2x3 2 years ago
I would guess that the point of a theoretical ideal would be to provide a practical application. In that sense it would be advisable to come up with examples that exhibit the specific details of the theory. the " few minor differences" that you refer to are not minor at all, but instead are essential to anyone trying to make a real golf swing. The timing, amount, direction and duration of lower body movement during the swing, especially in transition and the downswing, is critical.
wdefrancesco 2 years ago
Sometimes huge differences in microscale are still minor differences in macroscale. I do not deal with microscale details. The idea of subduing the downswing to rotational motion entirely and only is mechanically perfect and I believe an average human can perform it. Of course, there must be a linear motion because we're bipedals. The trick is not to melt these motions or melt them as less as possible (Hogan).
As per timing issues - we should try always to find ways to eliminate them totally.
h1e2x3 2 years ago