Yeah, I found Esperanto and I realized it was what I thought Lojban would be when I first heard about it. My problem is that after such a long time trying to learn Lojban, I never came across a single familiar root word. I still have no idea where anything comes from. It's nowhere near as easy to learn as people claim. Esperanto, however, was WAY easy because I already know Spanish and some Portugese. The best part is you don't have to deal with any of the exceptions to words and pronunciation.
The style of English is DAMN complex, if you really think about it. It's incredibly difficult to learn, let alone master. But we get used to it by being surrounded by it. It's incredibly hard to learn Japanese in America because it's a completely different structure, and you forget how to think in that structure. But it's easier if you decide to live in Japan for awhile. From what those that speak Lojban tell me, it's hard to imagine how we haven't tried something like this before.
I think the challenge of learning the language will reflect the bias of your first language. It is suppose to be neutral for to all language native speakers. I think it is relatively simple though, simpler syntax than english. If it wasn't my first language I think the syntax of English would kill me, as it does for some of my non-native english speaking friends.
Spend a few days reading about object oriented computer programming languages.
Once you grasp the basics of a programming language like Java, and how you use it to get a computer to do the things it does. You will understand Lojban a lot better and probably ask why we arn't all using it.
Unlike someone commented here before I discourage you about Esperanto. It has plenty of intolerable flaws. When you read something about linguistics and philosophy you become somewhat skeptic about the problem it tries to solve. Anyway, recently I am curious about two related projects I found in the internet, lingwa de planeta and fasile.
@duubamg IEsperanto has been around for over 120 years. If you think it is still "Dr. Esperanto's International Language Project" of 120 years ago, you are greatly mistaken, yet virtually all the propaganda on the net, both pro and con makes that assumption. Esperanto is fully developed and richly complex with a full set of features. It ceased long ago to b ea constructed language project and has become a true language, fully the equal of any major language. La Esperanto feras! "stas boneg'!
@JerryBear48 Ok. The critic I have made is directed exclusively to Esperanto’s pretentions as an international auxiliary language. I understand that Esperanto has many others potential and effective applications. Even so, Esperanto is much better than English to be used as the world “lingua franca”, except, of course, for the number of speakers. In brief, Esperanto has earned its own place but is not an ideal project for an international auxiliary language. That’s what I currently believe.
@duubamg Esperranto Is the only meaningful international auxilliary language. Of the other 1200 to 2000 proposed projects, only a tiny handful are anything but useless oddities. You have no sound theoretical basis for deciding whether a language is "ideal" or not. What matters is what works in practice and Esperanto works brilliantly. The problem of creating a real language is immensely complex and every feature of Esperanto has been tested in enormous detail. No other language really works.
@JerryBear48 I disagree. I myslf have run into many projects btter than Eo, such as lingwa di planeta, fasile, Lojban, etc. Anyway, after studying a little bit Latin I’m starting to think that it shld b the international langge. It’s beautiful, precise, and historic. Full of contexts and references. Yes, it’s difficult. But so is English! I believe n language deprived from its idioms, slangs and regionalisms would be a great candidate. Latin with its neutrality would b the best among them.
@duubamg These are mere toys for conlang fans. Only one project has ever become a real language and that is Esperanto. It took 50 years from the time Zamenhof conceived of it to the time it started to be a real language. It would take at least that long to turn any of the fairly trivial projects you mentioned into a real language. Zamenhof;'s genius lay in the fact that he realized he couldn't create a language on his own. He instead created a basis to build a real language upon.
@duubamg His stripped down schematic project of 1887 is not Esperanto. The language is the creation of tens of thousands of individuals working over many generations. This is what it takes to make a real language. I have 2 grammars of Esperanto, one running over 500 pages and the newest to about 700. The socalled "16 rules" is long gone. Just because some pretentious twit wrote that Esperanto is "defective" for this or that supposed reason does not make it so. You know NOTHING of real Esp.
@duubamg It took more than a hundred years from the time the "first book" was published for Esperanto to become a complete, full featured language with a rich sophisticated history, literature and culture behind it. It is now fully the equal of any major language. You have no idea what a real Int. Aux. lang. looks like none whatsoever. The unique historical circumstances that created Esperanto are unlike to appear again. To throwaway Esperanto is to throw away the whole idea.
@duubamg you have no intellectually honest criteria to judge Esperanto. The opinions you have blindly and uncritically accepted are meaningless. For example, the accented letters? Zamenhoff turned down a bribe of a quarter of a million gold francs to drop them. After discussing it for 20 years with his fellow Esperantists the concensus was that the principle of one sound-one letter was worth the inconvenience. Do you really think your opinion is more informed? I repeat, you don't know Esperanto
@duubamg Zamenhoff himself originally though of promoting Latin or Greek. When he studied them himself, he quickly realized how impractical that would be. Although it is interesting to note that the structure of real Esperanto is like a stripped down regularized optimized version of Classical Greek. Esperanto fully posseses the logical rigor and precision of the Cl assical languages but is far more flexible and easier to learn. Esperanto is not "simple" nor "easy", but you can learn it fast.
@JerryBear48 ur pasion isBeutifl.Hwvr I cldn’t hlp butToObserveThat U made mny asmptions abt my knwldge ofEO.EOis nt only an inadqte projectButAlso 1oftheWorst Ive evr met. AnyLaypersonAbleToPerformComparisonsCan c EO is dsapointdlyAnAmateurWork. Again, thisCriticGoesOnlyTo itsPretentions asIAL. Ucan alwyslearn it as a hobby/cultLike I’m doingToLatin. Wth luck they cld evn b useful. I disagr wthUr50yrs thesis. AnyProjectAdoptedBy a bigOrgnzation,sayUN, wld take off 1000TimesFasterThan EOhas.
@duubamg Like I said, you don't really know the real Esperanto language nor do you have any meaningful basis for judging the quality of a conlanguage. The onlly valid test is how it works in practice. In this respect Esperanto is unique. It has become a real living and evolvong language with a significant body of native speakers, the most (in) famous being international financier George Soros. I think I better give you some URL's to real Esperanto to see for yourself..
Congratulations for your courage in saying so. Although we must remember that the primary goal of Lojban is not said to be that of an international auxiliary language. It is indeed an interesting intellectual adventure but lacks practical significance for now. Pronunciation is unpopular and so are those symbols in the middle of the words (., ).
Have you ever attempted to master a language besides English? I've been studying French for over two years with little progress, and in just two weeks I've gotten a firm grasp of the grammar of Lojban.
Those prepositions do exist. If it helps, it is grammatical (though superfluous) to insert them between words. Look them up. They're all cmavo of selma'o BAI.
And discounting FA* for complexity is odd. That stilted/poetic wording in English is just as "confusing."
Er, edit on "They're all cmavo of selma'o BAI". There's a range of what type of grammar they are, depending on what you mean. But the "at", "to", etc. stuff is *usually* BAI.
Lojban is intended for experimentation, not international communication. Esperanto is a simple language for international communication. If that's what you're looking for, learn it. I'd say it's worth your while. It was a great experience for me. I'm going travelling next year with Esperantists and got a good grasp of how languages work which is really helping with my studies of my third language, not to mention the friends I've made through it. I believe lolban has a place, just not for IC.
I haven't read all the comments on this video so I'm just going to go ahead and tell you that you're absolutely wrong about most of what you say in this video. You can say 'towards' and 'at' no problem in lojban, and adjectives are 10x more powerful IMO with lojban than any other language. for example:
mi masno be zo'i klama do = I slowly approach you.
I COULD also say: mi masno lo pu'u zo'i klama do = I am slow in approaching you
and there are plenty of other ways to say it. very flexible.
Plus, a lot of Lojban words sound like something out of the Black Speech of Mordor. The word for "music" is "zgike." WTF? Did someone sit down after listening to a beautiful symphony and think "I'm gonna call that zgike." Of course, if you criticize them for that, they'll say "That's completely subjective and irrational ASH NAZG oops sorry for the outburst."
Using nouns as adjectives is cool. We do it all the time in English, and the Indonesians do it too (in the opposite order.) It's strange that you'd start off criticizing Lojban for one of its good features.
I agree with your criticism of the "slots," though. These Lojban folks like to come up with hundreds of special particles for things like quotation marks, but they won't dare make a single preposition/postposition representing any simple concept like "at." Completely ass-backwards IMO.
There are words like "vi" that you can use for that; special made sumti tcita to work with all predicates, regardless of the slots of that particular predicate.
I think you might be misunderstanding the purpose of Lojban. It's not supposed to be easy to learn, but rather to allow highly complex and precise expression.
Imagine, if you will, if Lojban were to be adapted by a legal system. How much time and energy, not to mention paper, would be saved through the use of clear, unambiguous laws and contracts?
Yeah but Greek's a natural language, where as Lojban is a constructed lang, and conlangs are generally much easier than naturally grown + bred languages like English or Greek.
Learning conlangs is more like learning programming languages than any national language because they are often made to be regular + easier etc (i.e., Javascript is more logical than russian). However, Lojban is harder to learn than most conlangs coz it actually is like speaking in a programming language lol (all complex)
The user doesn't seem to have looked into the language very much, presenting these very basic aspects of the language and critisising them in a way that feels quite irrelevant.
I partially agree with you. Lojban makes, and enforces, a lot of distinctions and has a lot of precision that simply isn't necessary in everyday speech. I think if it became an IAL like Esperanto aims to be, a lot of those distinctions would be lost very quickly. However, they are very useful in certain types of writing. I can easily see Lojban becoming an international standard for more technical writing, such as for mathematical papers, scientific explanations, and particularly philosophy.
Oh yeah. And there's no word for "to" huh? It's (farna).
What human being can master this language. LMAO. Dude you really sound hella stupid. I'm NOT trying to start some internet fight... but you just keep saying that you aren't smart enough. Just say that. Cuz your arguement is BAD.....
Lojban (you are pronouncing it wrong) is "too complex" for you? You just called yourself stupid.
(mi klama le zarci)=(I go to the store)
What's so difficult about that? Stupid.
There's no word for "at" huh? It's (zvati).
There's no word for "towards"? It's (selfa'a).
"For" in English is so vague, Lojban is better. If it's a gift, for example, you could say (le pagre se dunda fi le do) to convey (the paper is FOR you).
I'm sorry if that's too "complicated for you" .............
i think that the language "toki pona" might be a simpler language to learn than lojban. with only 118 words, it can still express many ideas. for example "toki" can mean language, talk, talking, speech, communication, communicate, say, chat, hello, or hi. im not trying to criticise lojban, if that's the message you received from my comment. to me, toki pona feels like the opposite of lojban. lojban makes you think, toki pona really doesn't.
I think lojban dazzled you by its simplicity which seems like complexity. With natural languages like English, you have very similar grammatical structures, but when it comes to fill the slots of *those* grammars, there are only certain words for certain slots, and they are very different sometimes; that's where the little verbs and nouns come from. In lojban, every word can stand at every place, that's why the grammar shows its slots so strongly in the dictionary.
Also, every time something in lojban seems too difficult, simply remind yourself that they managed to pack every single concept plus an awful lot of vocabulary into about 4000 words. Learn those and how to use them and no lojban text should be a big problem for you, and then you pick up the composite words, too. I think lojbans simplicity is underrated.
cmavo {fa'a}, of selma'o FAhA4, glossing to "towards point": location tense relation/direction; arriving at/directly towards
This is a word for "towards". Do not spread falsities about Lojban, please. You clearly have more reading to do before you will be able to say anything cogent about Lojban.
The phenomenon "going" is not possible without 1) a goer 2) a destination 3) an origin 4) a route and 5) a means. There is rationale for why "klama" has these 5 x's.
In the case of "klama", "fe" can work as "to" in English, which comes in handy for changing the word order:
(fa) mi klama (fe) lo ckule
I go to school.
fe lo ckule fa mi klama
To school I go.
You can also use "fa'a ..." (towards ...) instead of the predefined socket:
Its not a mind game, its rather easy to learn. Its also designed to have no limitations on thought. You always know how to explain something in lojban.
well then again you could always go 'its a colour thats associated with warmth and blood' and just make symbolic parallels... But how would you explain the concept properly in lojban? I'm sure that if it could be said in Lojban it could be translated in English, although the Lojban version would sound quicker and better than an awkward English attempt no doubt
A. Never said anything about perfect translations
C. Because every word in Lojban would have an English translation or explanation (either perfect or abstract, otherwise people wouldn't bother with writing courses for learning lojban), anything that could be explained in Lojban can be explained in English. Even if it requires explaining other words or grammatical features of lojban just to explain one word, its still possible.
actually this reminds me - you can explain red in english by explaining what light is as far as physics go, then explaining the colour spectrum and how some things are different colours and others aren't, then explaining the way red light is made... of course I'm no physician so without that prior knowledge I'm a bit in the dark.
For someone that can't even use the English language properly and someone who is not a linguist you seem to be arguing quite a bit. First of all learn about languages. Second, look up the definition of Physician.
I'm sorry that I appeared argumentative, this was not my intention :(
While I am a lover of linguistics, I do admit that I am by no means a professional linguist, I just love discussing about it all.
And what do you find improper about my use of English? I can account for sloppy use of grammar and the occasional typo as I am tired and trying to cram in as much as possible, but please be specific incase I am subconsciously repeating the same error.
Doesn't sound so bad. No more complex than, say, Sanskrit with its 8 cases and several tenses or Russian (6 cases and invlected verbs.) You can't be expected to master a language in a few months. I speak 7 different ones and each took years to gain profficiency. Any language that would be an international language would probably get a year or two, if not more, allotted in curicula around the world that would allow ppl to master it.
@philomelodia Esperanto can be learned to basic conversational fluency in a month (roughly b1 level) and to high level fluency in a year. To completely master the language takes about 3 years of dedicated study but that would be like studying any other not closely cognate language for 10 to 15 years. Lojban is really not a human language because it tries to avoid ambiguity at all costs but human languages thrive on ambiguity. Nobody is fluent in Lojban, not really. Not like in Esperanto.
@JerryBear48 Go on. Gimme something new. About that financer… I don’t think making money is a sign of language skills or eloquence. If I had to appeal to authority (which I never do) I would chose Wittgenstein. Again, I’m not against EO. If the UN adopted it as its official language I would gladly learn it as fast as I could.
It's actually very simple.
LIV3TH3M3TAL 4 months ago
.i mi toltu'i .io .i ku'i do troci i'e
chasmicshoes 4 months ago
Yeah, I found Esperanto and I realized it was what I thought Lojban would be when I first heard about it. My problem is that after such a long time trying to learn Lojban, I never came across a single familiar root word. I still have no idea where anything comes from. It's nowhere near as easy to learn as people claim. Esperanto, however, was WAY easy because I already know Spanish and some Portugese. The best part is you don't have to deal with any of the exceptions to words and pronunciation.
pyromaniac344 5 months ago
... you know, its not supposed to be an international language. I honestly don't know where you got that from.
Besides, there's already Esperanto for that.
keinve2 5 months ago
The style of English is DAMN complex, if you really think about it. It's incredibly difficult to learn, let alone master. But we get used to it by being surrounded by it. It's incredibly hard to learn Japanese in America because it's a completely different structure, and you forget how to think in that structure. But it's easier if you decide to live in Japan for awhile. From what those that speak Lojban tell me, it's hard to imagine how we haven't tried something like this before.
Liberum69 6 months ago 3
*smoke alarm battery. Sorry I think I had a freudian slip there, or a mini-stroke, either or.
jessicasdgirl 7 months ago
OMG change your smoke battery alarm!
jessicasdgirl 7 months ago
I think the challenge of learning the language will reflect the bias of your first language. It is suppose to be neutral for to all language native speakers. I think it is relatively simple though, simpler syntax than english. If it wasn't my first language I think the syntax of English would kill me, as it does for some of my non-native english speaking friends.
inhumanhyena 11 months ago
Spend a few days reading about object oriented computer programming languages.
Once you grasp the basics of a programming language like Java, and how you use it to get a computer to do the things it does. You will understand Lojban a lot better and probably ask why we arn't all using it.
bothadj 1 year ago
sounds to me that lojban is not so logical as it initially sounds
kehanocy 1 year ago
@kehanocy
Have you seen some of his more recent videos?
Simoneister 1 year ago
i an curios, what is making that sharp whisle sound every ones in a while?
steffankaizer 1 year ago
@steffankaizer The audio sucks on my (previous) camera so everything I would say "s", "sh", or "ch", it would make that noise.
arpee9216 1 year ago
@arpee9216 No I think he's referring to the louder high pitch beep, it happens 3 times in the video. Thanks for your opinion on the language
JBLanteigne 1 year ago
@steffankaizer Smoke alarm needed its battery changed.
tomatokatsup 8 months ago
Arguments are fun :D
GHhog 1 year ago
Unlike someone commented here before I discourage you about Esperanto. It has plenty of intolerable flaws. When you read something about linguistics and philosophy you become somewhat skeptic about the problem it tries to solve. Anyway, recently I am curious about two related projects I found in the internet, lingwa de planeta and fasile.
duubamg 1 year ago
@duubamg IEsperanto has been around for over 120 years. If you think it is still "Dr. Esperanto's International Language Project" of 120 years ago, you are greatly mistaken, yet virtually all the propaganda on the net, both pro and con makes that assumption. Esperanto is fully developed and richly complex with a full set of features. It ceased long ago to b ea constructed language project and has become a true language, fully the equal of any major language. La Esperanto feras! "stas boneg'!
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@JerryBear48 Ok. The critic I have made is directed exclusively to Esperanto’s pretentions as an international auxiliary language. I understand that Esperanto has many others potential and effective applications. Even so, Esperanto is much better than English to be used as the world “lingua franca”, except, of course, for the number of speakers. In brief, Esperanto has earned its own place but is not an ideal project for an international auxiliary language. That’s what I currently believe.
duubamg 1 year ago
@duubamg Esperranto Is the only meaningful international auxilliary language. Of the other 1200 to 2000 proposed projects, only a tiny handful are anything but useless oddities. You have no sound theoretical basis for deciding whether a language is "ideal" or not. What matters is what works in practice and Esperanto works brilliantly. The problem of creating a real language is immensely complex and every feature of Esperanto has been tested in enormous detail. No other language really works.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@JerryBear48 I disagree. I myslf have run into many projects btter than Eo, such as lingwa di planeta, fasile, Lojban, etc. Anyway, after studying a little bit Latin I’m starting to think that it shld b the international langge. It’s beautiful, precise, and historic. Full of contexts and references. Yes, it’s difficult. But so is English! I believe n language deprived from its idioms, slangs and regionalisms would be a great candidate. Latin with its neutrality would b the best among them.
duubamg 1 year ago
@duubamg These are mere toys for conlang fans. Only one project has ever become a real language and that is Esperanto. It took 50 years from the time Zamenhof conceived of it to the time it started to be a real language. It would take at least that long to turn any of the fairly trivial projects you mentioned into a real language. Zamenhof;'s genius lay in the fact that he realized he couldn't create a language on his own. He instead created a basis to build a real language upon.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@duubamg His stripped down schematic project of 1887 is not Esperanto. The language is the creation of tens of thousands of individuals working over many generations. This is what it takes to make a real language. I have 2 grammars of Esperanto, one running over 500 pages and the newest to about 700. The socalled "16 rules" is long gone. Just because some pretentious twit wrote that Esperanto is "defective" for this or that supposed reason does not make it so. You know NOTHING of real Esp.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@duubamg It took more than a hundred years from the time the "first book" was published for Esperanto to become a complete, full featured language with a rich sophisticated history, literature and culture behind it. It is now fully the equal of any major language. You have no idea what a real Int. Aux. lang. looks like none whatsoever. The unique historical circumstances that created Esperanto are unlike to appear again. To throwaway Esperanto is to throw away the whole idea.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@duubamg you have no intellectually honest criteria to judge Esperanto. The opinions you have blindly and uncritically accepted are meaningless. For example, the accented letters? Zamenhoff turned down a bribe of a quarter of a million gold francs to drop them. After discussing it for 20 years with his fellow Esperantists the concensus was that the principle of one sound-one letter was worth the inconvenience. Do you really think your opinion is more informed? I repeat, you don't know Esperanto
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@duubamg Zamenhoff himself originally though of promoting Latin or Greek. When he studied them himself, he quickly realized how impractical that would be. Although it is interesting to note that the structure of real Esperanto is like a stripped down regularized optimized version of Classical Greek. Esperanto fully posseses the logical rigor and precision of the Cl assical languages but is far more flexible and easier to learn. Esperanto is not "simple" nor "easy", but you can learn it fast.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@JerryBear48 ur pasion isBeutifl.Hwvr I cldn’t hlp butToObserveThat U made mny asmptions abt my knwldge ofEO.EOis nt only an inadqte projectButAlso 1oftheWorst Ive evr met. AnyLaypersonAbleToPerformComparisonsCan c EO is dsapointdlyAnAmateurWork. Again, thisCriticGoesOnlyTo itsPretentions asIAL. Ucan alwyslearn it as a hobby/cultLike I’m doingToLatin. Wth luck they cld evn b useful. I disagr wthUr50yrs thesis. AnyProjectAdoptedBy a bigOrgnzation,sayUN, wld take off 1000TimesFasterThan EOhas.
duubamg 1 year ago
@duubamg Like I said, you don't really know the real Esperanto language nor do you have any meaningful basis for judging the quality of a conlanguage. The onlly valid test is how it works in practice. In this respect Esperanto is unique. It has become a real living and evolvong language with a significant body of native speakers, the most (in) famous being international financier George Soros. I think I better give you some URL's to real Esperanto to see for yourself..
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@duubamg
JerryBear48 1 year ago
Congratulations for your courage in saying so. Although we must remember that the primary goal of Lojban is not said to be that of an international auxiliary language. It is indeed an interesting intellectual adventure but lacks practical significance for now. Pronunciation is unpopular and so are those symbols in the middle of the words (., ).
duubamg 1 year ago
Have you ever attempted to master a language besides English? I've been studying French for over two years with little progress, and in just two weeks I've gotten a firm grasp of the grammar of Lojban.
Those prepositions do exist. If it helps, it is grammatical (though superfluous) to insert them between words. Look them up. They're all cmavo of selma'o BAI.
And discounting FA* for complexity is odd. That stilted/poetic wording in English is just as "confusing."
cariasyo 2 years ago
Er, edit on "They're all cmavo of selma'o BAI". There's a range of what type of grammar they are, depending on what you mean. But the "at", "to", etc. stuff is *usually* BAI.
cariasyo 2 years ago
Lojban is intended for experimentation, not international communication. Esperanto is a simple language for international communication. If that's what you're looking for, learn it. I'd say it's worth your while. It was a great experience for me. I'm going travelling next year with Esperantists and got a good grasp of how languages work which is really helping with my studies of my third language, not to mention the friends I've made through it. I believe lolban has a place, just not for IC.
thisusernameistaken2 2 years ago
Well, I have to say that your inability to adapt to a language doesn't prove its inferiority.
I'll stick with English for now, though, no matter how illogical that may be.
sobeita 2 years ago
Lojban would make a good computer programming language, but as a language for people, I have my doubts...
ccoraxfan 2 years ago
I haven't read all the comments on this video so I'm just going to go ahead and tell you that you're absolutely wrong about most of what you say in this video. You can say 'towards' and 'at' no problem in lojban, and adjectives are 10x more powerful IMO with lojban than any other language. for example:
mi masno be zo'i klama do = I slowly approach you.
I COULD also say: mi masno lo pu'u zo'i klama do = I am slow in approaching you
and there are plenty of other ways to say it. very flexible.
djancak 2 years ago
I'm pretty sure the reason why it uses sockets is so a computer can comprehend what you are saying.
8bittt 2 years ago
Try Ithkuil. :D
SeverEnergia 2 years ago 2
Plus, a lot of Lojban words sound like something out of the Black Speech of Mordor. The word for "music" is "zgike." WTF? Did someone sit down after listening to a beautiful symphony and think "I'm gonna call that zgike." Of course, if you criticize them for that, they'll say "That's completely subjective and irrational ASH NAZG oops sorry for the outburst."
vezrig 2 years ago
The word for beautiful, "melbi", is beautiful, however. What if you listen to some nasty Mordor music?
OhThatsGold 2 years ago
Using nouns as adjectives is cool. We do it all the time in English, and the Indonesians do it too (in the opposite order.) It's strange that you'd start off criticizing Lojban for one of its good features.
I agree with your criticism of the "slots," though. These Lojban folks like to come up with hundreds of special particles for things like quotation marks, but they won't dare make a single preposition/postposition representing any simple concept like "at." Completely ass-backwards IMO.
vezrig 2 years ago
There are words like "vi" that you can use for that; special made sumti tcita to work with all predicates, regardless of the slots of that particular predicate.
OhThatsGold 2 years ago
I think you might be misunderstanding the purpose of Lojban. It's not supposed to be easy to learn, but rather to allow highly complex and precise expression.
Imagine, if you will, if Lojban were to be adapted by a legal system. How much time and energy, not to mention paper, would be saved through the use of clear, unambiguous laws and contracts?
PanzerDivisionBOM 2 years ago
2 months?! Can you honestly believe that ANY language can be completely (or even partially) understood in 2 months?!
I've been studying for about 5 months now and am really starting to get the hang of it. Try studying Greek, now there's a complicated language.
Traddles000 2 years ago
Yeah but Greek's a natural language, where as Lojban is a constructed lang, and conlangs are generally much easier than naturally grown + bred languages like English or Greek.
Learning conlangs is more like learning programming languages than any national language because they are often made to be regular + easier etc (i.e., Javascript is more logical than russian). However, Lojban is harder to learn than most conlangs coz it actually is like speaking in a programming language lol (all complex)
chrissomerry 2 years ago
The language you have created called Bon Wen is much better than Lojban and all the rest.
K0attack 2 years ago
The user doesn't seem to have looked into the language very much, presenting these very basic aspects of the language and critisising them in a way that feels quite irrelevant.
Arlakossa 3 years ago
what a fail. let go of your illogical ways!
TheSilentNumber 3 years ago
I partially agree with you. Lojban makes, and enforces, a lot of distinctions and has a lot of precision that simply isn't necessary in everyday speech. I think if it became an IAL like Esperanto aims to be, a lot of those distinctions would be lost very quickly. However, they are very useful in certain types of writing. I can easily see Lojban becoming an international standard for more technical writing, such as for mathematical papers, scientific explanations, and particularly philosophy.
Twey0 3 years ago
You wasted 2 months and you don't know. WOW. Okay.
So if you started learning Arabic, you expect yourself to "master" it in 2 months? You're stupid-er than I thought!
If you can't at least have a basic convo in Lojban after 2 months, you're just an idiot. It's so straight forward..
GrandNoble 3 years ago
Oh yeah. And there's no word for "to" huh? It's (farna).
What human being can master this language. LMAO. Dude you really sound hella stupid. I'm NOT trying to start some internet fight... but you just keep saying that you aren't smart enough. Just say that. Cuz your arguement is BAD.....
GrandNoble 3 years ago
"What human being can master this language?"
just coz you're meant to take everything in lojban unambigiously and literally, doesn't mean you do that in english ;) lol
I agree with the poster's sentiments here, it is really hard to see how lojban can be mastered (despite the fact it is obviously possible)
chrissomerry 2 years ago
Lojban (you are pronouncing it wrong) is "too complex" for you? You just called yourself stupid.
(mi klama le zarci)=(I go to the store)
What's so difficult about that? Stupid.
There's no word for "at" huh? It's (zvati).
There's no word for "towards"? It's (selfa'a).
"For" in English is so vague, Lojban is better. If it's a gift, for example, you could say (le pagre se dunda fi le do) to convey (the paper is FOR you).
I'm sorry if that's too "complicated for you" .............
GrandNoble 3 years ago
i think that the language "toki pona" might be a simpler language to learn than lojban. with only 118 words, it can still express many ideas. for example "toki" can mean language, talk, talking, speech, communication, communicate, say, chat, hello, or hi. im not trying to criticise lojban, if that's the message you received from my comment. to me, toki pona feels like the opposite of lojban. lojban makes you think, toki pona really doesn't.
milootis10 3 years ago
I like those things about Lojban! And the good kinds of mind games are really fun!
Though I am one of the people who's learn Lojban mostly as a tool to "think differently" about things. And minimize ambiguity of speech.
GabrielKoulikov 3 years ago
I think lojban dazzled you by its simplicity which seems like complexity. With natural languages like English, you have very similar grammatical structures, but when it comes to fill the slots of *those* grammars, there are only certain words for certain slots, and they are very different sometimes; that's where the little verbs and nouns come from. In lojban, every word can stand at every place, that's why the grammar shows its slots so strongly in the dictionary.
garouHH 3 years ago
Also, every time something in lojban seems too difficult, simply remind yourself that they managed to pack every single concept plus an awful lot of vocabulary into about 4000 words. Learn those and how to use them and no lojban text should be a big problem for you, and then you pick up the composite words, too. I think lojbans simplicity is underrated.
garouHH 3 years ago
cmavo {fa'a}, of selma'o FAhA4, glossing to "towards point": location tense relation/direction; arriving at/directly towards
This is a word for "towards". Do not spread falsities about Lojban, please. You clearly have more reading to do before you will be able to say anything cogent about Lojban.
Disprofuse 3 years ago
The phenomenon "going" is not possible without 1) a goer 2) a destination 3) an origin 4) a route and 5) a means. There is rationale for why "klama" has these 5 x's.
In the case of "klama", "fe" can work as "to" in English, which comes in handy for changing the word order:
(fa) mi klama (fe) lo ckule
I go to school.
fe lo ckule fa mi klama
To school I go.
You can also use "fa'a ..." (towards ...) instead of the predefined socket:
mi klama fa'a lo ckule
So your accusation is off the point.
mirandansa 3 years ago
Its not a mind game, its rather easy to learn. Its also designed to have no limitations on thought. You always know how to explain something in lojban.
ZerroShadows 3 years ago 2
"You always know how to explain something in lojban."
Trying explaining the colour red to a blind man.
mdkbam 3 years ago
You can explain the concept of red, yes.
ZerroShadows 2 years ago
You just can't give him the experience of seeing red though, even if he gets the concept completely.
chrissomerry 2 years ago
Seeing is impossible for a blind man. But try to explain the concept of Red in English. Can you? I can't.
ZerroShadows 2 years ago
well then again you could always go 'its a colour thats associated with warmth and blood' and just make symbolic parallels... But how would you explain the concept properly in lojban? I'm sure that if it could be said in Lojban it could be translated in English, although the Lojban version would sound quicker and better than an awkward English attempt no doubt
chrissomerry 2 years ago
.egaugnal yna otni yltcefrep etalsnart taht sdrow on era erehT
ZerroShadows 2 years ago
A. Never said anything about perfect translations
C. Because every word in Lojban would have an English translation or explanation (either perfect or abstract, otherwise people wouldn't bother with writing courses for learning lojban), anything that could be explained in Lojban can be explained in English. Even if it requires explaining other words or grammatical features of lojban just to explain one word, its still possible.
chrissomerry 2 years ago
actually this reminds me - you can explain red in english by explaining what light is as far as physics go, then explaining the colour spectrum and how some things are different colours and others aren't, then explaining the way red light is made... of course I'm no physician so without that prior knowledge I'm a bit in the dark.
chrissomerry 2 years ago
For someone that can't even use the English language properly and someone who is not a linguist you seem to be arguing quite a bit. First of all learn about languages. Second, look up the definition of Physician.
ZerroShadows 2 years ago
I'm sorry that I appeared argumentative, this was not my intention :(
While I am a lover of linguistics, I do admit that I am by no means a professional linguist, I just love discussing about it all.
And what do you find improper about my use of English? I can account for sloppy use of grammar and the occasional typo as I am tired and trying to cram in as much as possible, but please be specific incase I am subconsciously repeating the same error.
And yes, you are correct - I mean physicist :(
chrissomerry 2 years ago
Nah, I just like being an asshole.
ZerroShadows 2 years ago
ah fair enough :P
chrissomerry 2 years ago
Doesn't sound so bad. No more complex than, say, Sanskrit with its 8 cases and several tenses or Russian (6 cases and invlected verbs.) You can't be expected to master a language in a few months. I speak 7 different ones and each took years to gain profficiency. Any language that would be an international language would probably get a year or two, if not more, allotted in curicula around the world that would allow ppl to master it.
philomelodia 3 years ago 2
@philomelodia Esperanto can be learned to basic conversational fluency in a month (roughly b1 level) and to high level fluency in a year. To completely master the language takes about 3 years of dedicated study but that would be like studying any other not closely cognate language for 10 to 15 years. Lojban is really not a human language because it tries to avoid ambiguity at all costs but human languages thrive on ambiguity. Nobody is fluent in Lojban, not really. Not like in Esperanto.
JerryBear48 1 year ago
@JerryBear48 Go on. Gimme something new. About that financer… I don’t think making money is a sign of language skills or eloquence. If I had to appeal to authority (which I never do) I would chose Wittgenstein. Again, I’m not against EO. If the UN adopted it as its official language I would gladly learn it as fast as I could.
duubamg 1 year ago
lojban rules you.
iwantagoodnameplease 3 years ago 2