@wvoelcker I want to apologize for my response to your comment. It wasn't said kindly. I stand by the truth behind it, but I could have been more considerate in my phrasing. Sorry.
@wvoelcker True enough. Let's all assume from now on that none of the figures of the past existed because we have no other evidence than the written accounts of dead men. Hannibal, Jesus, Julius Caesar, Confucius, Alexander the Great, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, etc. are all myths. That's logical. That makes sense.
@mrmemanme congratulations for going, in two posts, from claiming that no-one denies Jesus existed to claiming that we don't know *anyone* existed ;)
Of course these claims were made OF "Jesus", .....But even the claims that Jesus made the claims were made, anecdotally, in the form of obviously fictional writings, by people with an emotional, and possibly fiscal,political or material, investment , in promoting him as a divine, and a presumably once carnal being.
The Gospels wrote him up as a once living human being, Saul of Tarsus never seemed too fussy about making the same point!
Christianity actually predates the time that Christ supposedly walked the earth. The common Roman simultaneously feared and ridiculed early Christians as cannibals and idolaters. It was not until Constantine converted to Christianity in 313 AD that Christian persecution on a large scale ceased in Europe.
CS Lewis, like all Christian apologists misrepresents his own religion. Jesus never said he was God, that he forgives sins, that he always existed, that he will judge the world at the end of time. Those statement come from the Gospels, mostly John, written long after his death by anonymous writers with a Christian agenda.
Lewis' options as to what Jesus was in ludicrous. There are far more options: a myth, a fabrication, a misrepresentation...etc.
@4312ton The only other two options would be myth or guru.... If he was myth then what Made thousands of Jews become Christians immediately following his death? From an anthropological or sociological perspective unless there were some really profound events happening following his Crucifixion i.e his resurrection and ascension why would thousands upon thousand endure torture and death for proclaiming what they saw when they could have avoided that by simply denying their faith in Christ?
@megaead69 "what Made thousands of Jews become Christians immediately following his death?"
Huh? What apologist source do you get this myth? Except for a small, and shrinking Jesus cult, the Jews never accepted the crucified Jesus as the Messiah.
There were no "thousands upon thousands" martyrs. This is mostly a church fabrication. Anyway, what about Islamic suicide bombers and terrorist? Does that mean they have the true religion? Many are certainly willing to die for it!
@4312ton Following the death of Jesus thousands of Jews accepted him as Messiah and suffered torturous deaths rather than renounce their Faith. Islam grew out of Forced conversions. My point is the Genesis of both religions speaks rather clearly.
@megaead69 "Following the death of Jesus thousands of Jews accepted him as Messiah and suffered torturous deaths"
Where did you get those numbers from? I would estimate maybe a few hundred, not thousands! If we take Acts at face value there was some prosecution of the Jewish Jesus sect for blasphemy. The Jesus sect never caught on with Jews because Jesus clearly was not their Messiah.
The Christian movement started with the gentiles and it became anti-Jewish very quickly.
@4312ton He clearly was their Messiah. Jews to this day claim that the primary reason for rejecting him was his claim to be One person of a Triune God (Holy Trinity). There are secular sources of the Romans persecuting the Christian movement in the first and second centuries AD. From a sociological and anthropological perspective, there must have been events transpiring in the early Church that led it's followers to endure torturous deaths rather than renounce Christ.
@megaead69 You're misinformed. The Jewish Messiah was a supposed to be a military or political leader who would liberate Israel from the occupiers (Romans) and re-establish the Kingdom of David. The executed Jesus was none of those things. The reason some Jews hung on to the "Jesus is Messiah" notion is that they thought Jesus would return in their lifetime. That's what Paul thought.
The Trinity concept only developed in the 4th century AD. There were few if any Christian Jews at that time.
Islam didnt not grow out of forced conversions... rather the contrary it is clearly stated in the Quran - Their is no compulsion in religion
In fact the islamic empire was so tolerant it actually split the great church of constantine with the christians despite conquering the lands.
And Jesus (pbuh) makes no claim to be god, the trinity is NEVER mentioned in the old testament which brings us to the truth that Jesus (pbuh) & ALL of the prophets called people to ONE Religion.. ISLAM
You are right that CS Lewis misrepresented Jesus but however it is ludicrous to think of Jesus as a myth or fabrication ( I myslef used to hold this view!)
Just think, the ROmans wanted to destroy Christianity in the early years after Jesus departed.. now if he was a myth they simply had to point out the fact to people that he NEVER EXISTED!! As they couldn't do this they cleverly wrapped up his story in legend and myth and passed it on for future generations.
@2islamrevert" the ROmans wanted to destroy Christianity in the early years after Jesus departed"
No honest historian would say the Romans paid any heed either way, until circa 63 AD, at the earliest. Even then, there was little extant evidence that they were singled out as any more than another Jewish sect, who were being persecuted as such. In any event, I know of no other actual account of this event which wasn't recorded as hearsay, years later. The Romans only ever mentioned believers.
Lord Liar Lunatic Legend or Man who was seriously misunderstood, or hell given the time period perhaps a rebellious son of Zeus. Sure Zeus is just a myth, but so is the Biblical Jesus.
I favour ludicrous myself. A good idea that spun out of control, and was eulogized by his followers, without realizing what he was trying to say. After all, if a criminal goes to jail, and then is released - do you not forgive them even if their actions never affected you? Do you think that they "sinned" in the first place? Why is murder considered wrong in all other religions? Are you god for forgiving them? Does "sin" hurt everyone in the world? Does crime hurt everyone?
@silverspirit2001 ... well that is one of the 3 options isn't it.. However, I would say that it is better to safe than sorry, is it not? Look into Dr.Peter Kreeft, Dr.Scott Hahn & of course C.S Lewis.. If you like, feel free to message me and we can chat some more about. Cheers!
@megaead69 Tut, tut. An appeal to pascals wager. I don't believe because it is all nonsensical, illogical and lacking evidence. The most I could do is pretend to believe - but what god could not see through that deception?
Belief is not a choice, but based of experience and reflection - which you cannot unlearn.
And it still begs the question, which god. In this case, saying just in case, you are referencing hell?
So which hell is worse - christian or islamic? That is how I should choose?
@silverspirit2001 .. I did not mention pascals wager as I don't like it. Islam contradicts what Christ taught, so that should make it pretty clear. I choose Christ.
@megaead69 So what did Christ teach? I bet you do not look into the whole new testament, but selectively choose passages, to fulfil your advanced morality.
Lets see, slavery, hell, child "marriage" - I bet you will try to distance yourself from them.
PS, all your arguments will fail biblical testimony. You bad Christian.....
I love C S Lewis's sharp tongue, but is not entirely convincing that Pan-EN-theism is incompatible with Judaism or Christianity. Hence it very well could be that Y'shua's claim is not on those grounds so different from similar claims made in context of other panentheists.
I recommend the writings of Bernadette Roberts in this context.
...Having said that, the claim to forgive sins indeed IS unique among the great souls of the earth !
It is true: either one confesses Y'shua as a unique Divine incarnation or one has to consider him severly deluded or worse. There doesn't seem to be some polite middle ground here.
If God created all things including himself then it only makes sense that we are all made of God, doesn't it? 0_o Also, look at Jesus in this movie clip, and in a movie clip of the passion of the Christ. In both these movies you'll undoubtedly find Jesus with one eye. In the passion, when he has one eye shut closed from bruising & in this video when half his face is in the shadows. Is this not symbolic of the one eye of Satan? The Illuminati symbol? Their symbols are everywhere. Esp. in media
God did not create himself -- John 1:1 -- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
@PennyRoyaleTea This is bogus. Gibson seems to have gone closely by the evidence of the Shroud, and there one eyes seems to have been bruised more than the other.
He was C of E and feemasonary is encouraged there obviously with the crown links to Freemasonary. Are you sure he continued to be a freemason after conversion?
I thought mere Christianity was a good book and easily understood by all and is one of the few books that will appeal to an open minded aethieist to at least help them understand. I think only someone coming from where he did could have written it.
someone help me out here...please! my fiancee is a youth leader and a missionary. he is furious over anyone saying this man is not a true christian. please help me with facts. he admits he used to be an theist. he says c.s. lewis's family is suing some magazine and book publisher for saying this as well. but i know this man was a free mason...please help!!!!! ty!
both leo zagami and john todd (i think) said that lewis was a memberof the swiss o.t.o. (ordo templi ordis). for those that dont know this is the offshoot of the golden dawn founded by aleister crowley, a hardcore satanic/luciferian religion. its claimed that crowley himself is not a satanist (even though admitted that he was interested in evil and believed in different entities). crowley drew one of th first alien greys and the oto just happens to be involved with alot of cia personel, surprise
@wvoelcker I want to apologize for my response to your comment. It wasn't said kindly. I stand by the truth behind it, but I could have been more considerate in my phrasing. Sorry.
MurasalaKid318 1 month ago
Pity you used clips from that ghastly and rather blasphemous movie.
nicksum29 1 month ago
@wvoelcker True enough. Let's all assume from now on that none of the figures of the past existed because we have no other evidence than the written accounts of dead men. Hannibal, Jesus, Julius Caesar, Confucius, Alexander the Great, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, etc. are all myths. That's logical. That makes sense.
MurasalaKid318 1 month ago
I got another "L" word....LEGEND.
csaver 2 months ago
This trilemma conspicuously ignores the possibility that the stories never happened at all.
wvoelcker 3 months ago
@wvoelcker This is highly unlikely. Almost all educated people including atheists agree that Jesus existed.
mrmemanme 3 months ago
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wvoelcker 3 months ago
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@mrmemanme this is clearly untrue, as you will discover if you search for "Historicity of Jesus" on Wikipedia.
wvoelcker 3 months ago
@wvoelcker How do we know anybody existed? Did Hannibal exist? We only know he existed as people wrote about him, yet nobody denies that he existed.
mrmemanme 3 months ago
Comment removed
wvoelcker 3 months ago
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@mrmemanme congratulations for going, in two posts, from claiming that no-one denies Jesus existed to claiming that we don't know *anyone* existed ;)
wvoelcker 3 months ago
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@wvoelcker It was a question which I then answered if you had bothered to read my post.
mrmemanme 3 months ago
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@Knowwheretorun1984 Please tell me what this piece of music is called. Or can you tell me what movie it's from?
HDell1994 5 months ago
@Knowwhweretorun1984 Please tell me what this piece of music is called. Or can you tell me what movie it's from?
HDell1994 5 months ago
Of course these claims were made OF "Jesus", .....But even the claims that Jesus made the claims were made, anecdotally, in the form of obviously fictional writings, by people with an emotional, and possibly fiscal,political or material, investment , in promoting him as a divine, and a presumably once carnal being.
The Gospels wrote him up as a once living human being, Saul of Tarsus never seemed too fussy about making the same point!
Lewis must have been very naive indeed??!
Tobytrim 7 months ago
Christianity actually predates the time that Christ supposedly walked the earth. The common Roman simultaneously feared and ridiculed early Christians as cannibals and idolaters. It was not until Constantine converted to Christianity in 313 AD that Christian persecution on a large scale ceased in Europe.
Mike32587 10 months ago
Great clip. C.S. Lewis is my all time favorite author.
MadaraXIII 1 year ago
CS Lewis, like all Christian apologists misrepresents his own religion. Jesus never said he was God, that he forgives sins, that he always existed, that he will judge the world at the end of time. Those statement come from the Gospels, mostly John, written long after his death by anonymous writers with a Christian agenda.
Lewis' options as to what Jesus was in ludicrous. There are far more options: a myth, a fabrication, a misrepresentation...etc.
4312ton 1 year ago
@4312ton The only other two options would be myth or guru.... If he was myth then what Made thousands of Jews become Christians immediately following his death? From an anthropological or sociological perspective unless there were some really profound events happening following his Crucifixion i.e his resurrection and ascension why would thousands upon thousand endure torture and death for proclaiming what they saw when they could have avoided that by simply denying their faith in Christ?
megaead69 1 year ago
@megaead69 "what Made thousands of Jews become Christians immediately following his death?"
Huh? What apologist source do you get this myth? Except for a small, and shrinking Jesus cult, the Jews never accepted the crucified Jesus as the Messiah.
There were no "thousands upon thousands" martyrs. This is mostly a church fabrication. Anyway, what about Islamic suicide bombers and terrorist? Does that mean they have the true religion? Many are certainly willing to die for it!
4312ton 1 year ago
@4312ton Following the death of Jesus thousands of Jews accepted him as Messiah and suffered torturous deaths rather than renounce their Faith. Islam grew out of Forced conversions. My point is the Genesis of both religions speaks rather clearly.
megaead69 1 year ago
@megaead69 "Following the death of Jesus thousands of Jews accepted him as Messiah and suffered torturous deaths"
Where did you get those numbers from? I would estimate maybe a few hundred, not thousands! If we take Acts at face value there was some prosecution of the Jewish Jesus sect for blasphemy. The Jesus sect never caught on with Jews because Jesus clearly was not their Messiah.
The Christian movement started with the gentiles and it became anti-Jewish very quickly.
4312ton 1 year ago
@4312ton He clearly was their Messiah. Jews to this day claim that the primary reason for rejecting him was his claim to be One person of a Triune God (Holy Trinity). There are secular sources of the Romans persecuting the Christian movement in the first and second centuries AD. From a sociological and anthropological perspective, there must have been events transpiring in the early Church that led it's followers to endure torturous deaths rather than renounce Christ.
megaead69 1 year ago
@megaead69 You're misinformed. The Jewish Messiah was a supposed to be a military or political leader who would liberate Israel from the occupiers (Romans) and re-establish the Kingdom of David. The executed Jesus was none of those things. The reason some Jews hung on to the "Jesus is Messiah" notion is that they thought Jesus would return in their lifetime. That's what Paul thought.
The Trinity concept only developed in the 4th century AD. There were few if any Christian Jews at that time.
4312ton 1 year ago
@megaead69 "There are secular sources of the Romans persecuting the Christian movement in the first and second centuries AD"
The early Jewish Christian sect was mostly persecuted by the Jews, not Romans. The Jews considered the notion of Jesus as Messiah blasphemy.
4312ton 1 year ago
@megaead69
Islam didnt not grow out of forced conversions... rather the contrary it is clearly stated in the Quran - Their is no compulsion in religion
In fact the islamic empire was so tolerant it actually split the great church of constantine with the christians despite conquering the lands.
And Jesus (pbuh) makes no claim to be god, the trinity is NEVER mentioned in the old testament which brings us to the truth that Jesus (pbuh) & ALL of the prophets called people to ONE Religion.. ISLAM
2islamrevert 11 months ago
@4312ton
You are right that CS Lewis misrepresented Jesus but however it is ludicrous to think of Jesus as a myth or fabrication ( I myslef used to hold this view!)
Just think, the ROmans wanted to destroy Christianity in the early years after Jesus departed.. now if he was a myth they simply had to point out the fact to people that he NEVER EXISTED!! As they couldn't do this they cleverly wrapped up his story in legend and myth and passed it on for future generations.
Jesus was a prophet
2islamrevert 11 months ago
@2islamrevert" the ROmans wanted to destroy Christianity in the early years after Jesus departed"
No honest historian would say the Romans paid any heed either way, until circa 63 AD, at the earliest. Even then, there was little extant evidence that they were singled out as any more than another Jewish sect, who were being persecuted as such. In any event, I know of no other actual account of this event which wasn't recorded as hearsay, years later. The Romans only ever mentioned believers.
Tobytrim 7 months ago
Lord Liar Lunatic Legend or Man who was seriously misunderstood, or hell given the time period perhaps a rebellious son of Zeus. Sure Zeus is just a myth, but so is the Biblical Jesus.
GodlessInfinity 1 year ago
I favour ludicrous myself. A good idea that spun out of control, and was eulogized by his followers, without realizing what he was trying to say. After all, if a criminal goes to jail, and then is released - do you not forgive them even if their actions never affected you? Do you think that they "sinned" in the first place? Why is murder considered wrong in all other religions? Are you god for forgiving them? Does "sin" hurt everyone in the world? Does crime hurt everyone?
silverspirit2001 1 year ago
@silverspirit2001 ... well that is one of the 3 options isn't it.. However, I would say that it is better to safe than sorry, is it not? Look into Dr.Peter Kreeft, Dr.Scott Hahn & of course C.S Lewis.. If you like, feel free to message me and we can chat some more about. Cheers!
megaead69 1 year ago
@megaead69 Tut, tut. An appeal to pascals wager. I don't believe because it is all nonsensical, illogical and lacking evidence. The most I could do is pretend to believe - but what god could not see through that deception?
Belief is not a choice, but based of experience and reflection - which you cannot unlearn.
And it still begs the question, which god. In this case, saying just in case, you are referencing hell?
So which hell is worse - christian or islamic? That is how I should choose?
silverspirit2001 1 year ago
@silverspirit2001 .. I did not mention pascals wager as I don't like it. Islam contradicts what Christ taught, so that should make it pretty clear. I choose Christ.
megaead69 1 year ago
@megaead69 So what did Christ teach? I bet you do not look into the whole new testament, but selectively choose passages, to fulfil your advanced morality.
Lets see, slavery, hell, child "marriage" - I bet you will try to distance yourself from them.
PS, all your arguments will fail biblical testimony. You bad Christian.....
silverspirit2001 1 year ago
@silverspirit2001 You confuse the Old and New Testaments..
megaead69 1 year ago
I love C S Lewis's sharp tongue, but is not entirely convincing that Pan-EN-theism is incompatible with Judaism or Christianity. Hence it very well could be that Y'shua's claim is not on those grounds so different from similar claims made in context of other panentheists.
I recommend the writings of Bernadette Roberts in this context.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
...Having said that, the claim to forgive sins indeed IS unique among the great souls of the earth !
It is true: either one confesses Y'shua as a unique Divine incarnation or one has to consider him severly deluded or worse. There doesn't seem to be some polite middle ground here.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
Awesome clip! Thanks for posting.
Ramshobraja 2 years ago
If God created all things including himself then it only makes sense that we are all made of God, doesn't it? 0_o Also, look at Jesus in this movie clip, and in a movie clip of the passion of the Christ. In both these movies you'll undoubtedly find Jesus with one eye. In the passion, when he has one eye shut closed from bruising & in this video when half his face is in the shadows. Is this not symbolic of the one eye of Satan? The Illuminati symbol? Their symbols are everywhere. Esp. in media
PennyRoyaleTea 2 years ago
God did not create himself -- John 1:1 -- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
horkii8 2 years ago
@PennyRoyaleTea This is bogus. Gibson seems to have gone closely by the evidence of the Shroud, and there one eyes seems to have been bruised more than the other.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
He was C of E and feemasonary is encouraged there obviously with the crown links to Freemasonary. Are you sure he continued to be a freemason after conversion?
I thought mere Christianity was a good book and easily understood by all and is one of the few books that will appeal to an open minded aethieist to at least help them understand. I think only someone coming from where he did could have written it.
ownNWOnow 2 years ago
someone help me out here...please! my fiancee is a youth leader and a missionary. he is furious over anyone saying this man is not a true christian. please help me with facts. he admits he used to be an theist. he says c.s. lewis's family is suing some magazine and book publisher for saying this as well. but i know this man was a free mason...please help!!!!! ty!
christmas1971 2 years ago
both leo zagami and john todd (i think) said that lewis was a memberof the swiss o.t.o. (ordo templi ordis). for those that dont know this is the offshoot of the golden dawn founded by aleister crowley, a hardcore satanic/luciferian religion. its claimed that crowley himself is not a satanist (even though admitted that he was interested in evil and believed in different entities). crowley drew one of th first alien greys and the oto just happens to be involved with alot of cia personel, surprise
joopq 2 years ago
Amen, Praise and Love Almighty Father in Heaven/Jesus Christ FOREVER!!
iToyRobot 2 years ago
Very moving! The music and the clips just brings more power to Lewis's words.
LadyLirenel 2 years ago 2
Using handsome actors to portray the Lord and especially using the work of Mel Gison is the downfall of your otherwise excellent videos.
Thanks for all your hard work in reloading your valuabe channel.
MandoMohan 2 years ago 2
why?
Coenzyme911 2 years ago