Different Voice from Vancouver (1)

[commissioner88]

damn i was in vancouver 4 weeks ago and i have never seen so many fukin asian but the city was fukin awesome people too!

[midsummersnow77]

Vancouver supports CHina!

[chinaone75]

1、很多人抵制家乐福，国内有80%的人不知道发生了什么，为什­么抵制，只是觉得这样很爱国。

2、很多人网上、现实传递爱国红心，还有刚刚入幼儿园的小孩子，­每周一早上都要说：热爱祖国，保卫祖国， 建设祖国的口号，他们极大部分是被组织起来的，中国有的特色：上­级安排得都会积极去做，不要问为什么。

3、我调查的人，是老百姓、企业家，有党员有民众，有大学生，1­00%的对共产党不满意，对社会不满意， 对很多社会现象感到憎恶，看不到希望

4、而我在这里看到的很多粪青，享受国外的自由，却为国内的专制­唱赞歌，乐见家乡的父老乡亲承受剥削压制 的苦难，而那些被粪青视为不爱国的人，他们却真正为祖国的自由民­主而殚精竭虑、为人权民生而心急如焚，无私 牺牲。我们感受到了他们的爱

[eztomcat]

19世纪下半叶，很多国内人对政府不满，因为民众吸食鸦片，白银­哗哗得流往国外。 20世纪初，很多国内人对政府不满，因为腐朽的政府签订了很多卖­国条约。 20年代，很多国内人对政府不满，因为军阀混战，战祸四起。 30年代，很多国内人对政府不满，因为政府官员贪污严重。 40年代，很多国内人对政府不满，因为政府和共产党打内战，民众­生活在水深火热之中。 50年代，很多国内人对政府不满，因为在韩战上耗费太多，大跃进­，害了很多人饿死。 60年代，很多国内人对政府不满，因为文化大革命，害死了很多知­识分子。 70年代，很多国内人对政府不满，因为物质贫乏，百姓民不聊生。 80年代，很多国内人对政府不满，因为官倒，六四遭镇压。 90年代，很多国内人对政府不满，因为贫富差距拉大，性工作者泛­滥。 21世纪开始，很多国内人对政府不满，因为政府要跟藏独卖国贼谈­判。 恭喜作者的重大发现，即当今"很多国内人对政府不满"。也很佩服­你的专业精神，和所作的调查。 我没有调查过，我只是回顾了一下中国近代史，所以你不同意，当我­说的全都是无稽之谈好了。

[chinaone75]

针对网上针锋相对的讨论和谩骂，我特意做了社会调查，情况如下

[eztomcat]

China is history. China is land. China is people. And China is a science worth learning, studying and knowing more about. As for the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games, just get some coke and pretzels, relax and sit back to enjoy the show. It's just a sports event for the whole world. Can you make yourself any happier, can't you? Do you always think about the African starving children, when you are jogging or exercising in gym, for example? Come on, you know you do or not.

[eztomcat]

Everybody gets ready for a war, a war without gunpowder but world wide. Because this is a war!!!

[eztomcat]

伟大领袖毛主席教导我们：千万不要忘记阶级斗争！

Our great leader, Chairman Mao, taught us: Never forget the Classes struggle!

帝国主义亡我之心不死，我们必须时刻提高警惕，保卫祖国。

The Imperialism never stops its attampt to conquer and annex us, so we need to always keep alert, and get ready to protect our motherland at any second.

[utubekillstv]

Paramilitary guards proof? It is just what I believe by watching the news and being on youtube. Here are some examles. The guards (in Paris) were speaking Mandrine ( I think). They were wearing sunglasses to hide their identity. They were built like they could kick some serious ass. If the guards are good enough to protect China they good enough to protect the torch

[uvgarden]

youtube 3.29 ANTI-TIBET-SEPARATISM PARADE @VANCOUVER DOWNTOWN- Why do the Western *free* media blackout and distort such protests. If you respect speech freedom, let's talk about these. For example, one Canadian CBC reporter claimed the protesting Canadian-citizens Chinese-students who are ordered to do so by the "Chinese commy government". His insulting false-explanation is widely broadcasted in Canada which leads to larger scale protests which are blacked-out by BBC, CNN, CBC, ABC, etc.

[asgarnio]

Haha, XiZang belongs to China, what ever u saying.

[danny458]

***Before you Comment***

Here's the REAL TRUTH of Tibet. Study history, not the media.

watch video

watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY

[Passby12]

Different voice? this is just the same China's voice on Tibet.

[eztomcat]

It's definitely different from what we've heard in the West.

[hanagusuri]

West is diverse as much as the East.

China's mentality is that of Japan 100 years ago.

Don't always call yourself victims. Grow up.

[hellowjp]

What makes you so sure that you know what China's mentality is? Don't be a fool

[Passby12]

Here's a real different voice from China: China, go home. Leave Tibet alone.

[hellowjp]

Too bad, Tibet is a part of China

[18161952]

care about uself first...

why doun u join in and say "china,go home"

doun u have courage to show u opinion?

doun hide back u computer, show u stupid notion front of us

[Norepress]

Why doesn't China run the torch openly like the way it should be? Why do china have to hide them in the bus? Why does china bring the torch to a secret place in America?

China, just go home. Stop bullying. Let people live their lives.

[hellowjp]

You should stop bullying the Chinese people in America! China runs the torch in a bus because violent protesters are trying to put the flame out! If they were just protesting peacefully, there would be no need to run a torch in bus, idiot.

[Norepress]

Why do people protest? Did the Chinese invade Tibet "peacefully"? When the Chinese killed, tortured the Tibetans in Tibet, did the chinese whine about anything? It's OK for chinese to be barbaric and cruel, but it's not OK for other people to protest? The world doesn't revolve around China. This Olympic is a shame. Cancel the torch relay then. What kind of Olympic would use paramilitary guards to run the torch? What kind of Olympic would sneak around like snakes?

[hellowjp]

Yes, currently the world does revolve around China whether you like it or not. American troops invaded Iraq illegally and caused the current situation in Iraq, American government separated countless countries into small pieces, does that mean all Americans should be hated? Does that mean 911 should be justified?

[Norepress]

The fact is China only provides cheap labor for the world. China has been serving the world with their cheap labor including child labor.

Let's just talk about Tibet. Don't sneak away from the topic. Want to talk about Iraq? Get on another site.

[hellowjp]

Plus, give me proof that those are "paramilitary guards" that are running the torch, because from what I see on CNN, it is the athelets who are running the torch, and people in jumpsuits are protecting them from violent protesters. When you make an wild accusation, legal proof is always neccessary.

[hellowjp]

Again, killing and torturing happens to Han Chinese as well, it's not something that happens only to Tibetans, and yes, Han Chinese scholars do whine about government policies in Tibet, and ordinary Han Chinese knows more about Tibet than you do. When you only want to hear the words from those who are anti-Chinese, and jump on the anti-China bandwagon, you'll never get to the truth.

[hellowjp]

Did you just seriously say that "Chinese people are barbaric and cruel"? WOW, talk about good-natured, non-prejudicial, peace-loving, educated, non-racist, indiscriminatory, TYPICAL so-not-brainwashed AMERICAN.

[bhshootingstar]

support China!support olympic!support peace!

[hanagusuri]

No.

[eztomcat]

Do you mean you'd say NO to Peace? bhshootingstar says "support peace!" Unless you can't read English.

[Passby12]

China and peace? That's a joke.

[eztomcat]

yes, it's a joke when having the dalai lama bugging around.

[Passby12]

Thanks. So that is ajoke no matter what. Now that is a different voice from China.

[hellowjp]

Has China invaded any country in the past? NO! Unlike the UK, USA, JAPAN, GERMANY, ITALY, RUSSIA!

[YAPONLUQ]

到21世纪世界上只是中国在进行殖民地政策

[holmes5668]

If Dalai Lama wants Greater Tibet and the Chinese government wants it all, there must be some middle ground. Talk does not hurt. When you enter negotiations you aim big and compromise.

[eztomcat]

Then the Dalai Lama needs to announce openly world-wide to his followers like India's Gandhi to stop "meaningful" voilence in Tibet, rather than telling the western media "I can not tell them (tibetans in tibet) what to do or what to not do". The question is: Is he willing to say that way?

[holmes5668]

He has, he has repeated it on many occasions.

[eztomcat]

Yes, he did. Looks he lost control of those tibetans already, doesn't it? Then can he still act as both political and religious leader of all tibetans? The tibetans won't listen to him, right? So even if the Dalai and China had a result of the talk, will tibetans accept that?

[BeijOlmTibblood]

go learn english frist........u brainwashed monkeys

[eztomcat]

Go learn Chinese first.

[giovaniceva]

Actually China is dragged into the racial issues of the West. China was never based on race, and racial issue was not a big deal. The prevalent western-created racialism currently affected the whole world. Suddenly, you were very different from your neighbors. It created tension and wars, suffering for some, opportunity for others.

[holmes5668]

Race is only not an issue when you are in the majority. If you are a minority with a different culture, religion, language, then it becomes an issue. Most mainlanders don't know any Tibetans of Uighurs, so do not know how they feel, but it is most certainly an issue for them, as it is an issue to Chinese in North America. As I said, if you asre in the minority it is an issue.

[giovaniceva]

The cultural differences are not only between ethnic Han and Tibetan. The so called ethnic Han is a mixed from many ethnics with different languages and background cultures. E.g. Cantonese speak their own language which is unintelligible to many other chinese, so do the minnan. The languages differences among them are greater than the differences in european languages. Once you understand the chinese cultures and people, you won't subscribe to the myth of a monolith China.

[holmes5668]

The monolith China is created by the Chinese government.

Also, there are cultural differences and then there are cultural differences! Yes, China is built on many ethnic groups, however I think we can safely say that a Fujianese is more closely related to someone from Zhejiang than they are to a Uighur and a Tibetan. Uighurs are Turks!! I am purely talking about those on the very fringe with no cultural and linguistic similarities to the Chinese majority.

[giovaniceva]

The gov promoted the political unity, not a monolithic culture. It was the other way around, a great effort was done to promote cultural diversity. Dinasty Tang brought in many aspects of Turkic culture more than a thousand years ago, since the founders was of part of Turkic ancestry. China as portrayed by the West is solely east asian. This western portrayal is not always shared by the chinese people. China is as much a central asian country for most of her history as an east asian country.

[giovaniceva]

While it is common to see the US as a melting pot of cultures, China was the first and the most successful melting pot of cultures. Multiculturalism is a built-in aspect of Chinese culture. Most people of the West failed to recognize this feature because most Chinese immigrants in the western countries were Cantonese. Most of chinatowns in the US/Canada are cantontowns. Westerners extrapolated this view to represent the whole China, which is in fact not entirely true.

[eztomcat]

In 1979, in order to fight against Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan, US supported Bin Laden to fight against the Soviet troops financially and with weapon supplies. Let look into 2001 again. Who bombed down the twin towers in NYC?

The Dalai Laman-driven tibetans are doing the same thing as those extremists did. Who can guarantee they wouldn't be seeking the similar requirement later to the West. I wouldn't feel surprised if 20 years later, the Sears Tower is bombed down by Tibetans.

[eztomcat]

The Dalai Lama wants a "Great Tibet" with NO Han people at all. Now he's accusing Chinese government "cultural genocide". Who can guarantee he wouldn't be a Race Genocide if Tibet is independent away from China?

[holmes5668]

Thats a good point. We will never know the answer unless the Chinese government sits down and discusses it with the Tibetans. Personally, I don't think the Tibetans have any chance at all of claiming Greater Tibet. Those areas of Sichuan, Gansu, Yunnan have at times also been populated by Han and other minorities, those areas are more difficult to argue for the Tibetans.

[eztomcat]

plus major part of Qinghai, the "Greater Tibet" takes 1/4 of China's land nowadys.

Moreover, no military existence in Tibet; Tibet can establish diplomatic relationship with all countries as they like. What will it look like, the Tibet? The Dalai Lama said he's willing to open talk with the Chinese government "within the framework of China's Constitution". That's what we know from Western media. Do western media report the Dalai Lama's "Greater Tibet" plan as well?

[holmes5668]

As mentioned, we will never know if the Chinese government won't talk to the Dalai Lama.

[eztomcat]

Chinese government wouldn't want to sit down and talk with a liar, this is the keypoint.

I was wondering the same a week ago just like you why Chinese government wouldn't want to talk before I knew the truth of what exactly the Dalai Laman wants. Ok, someone says to you: "Let me take away your heart without killing you, let me take away your brain without hurting your." What would you say? "Let's sit down and discuss it"?

[giovaniceva]

Brothers and sisters in China are not only Tibetans and Uighurs, there are so many others in provinces to talk about, and many are suffering even more than government subsidized minority groups. China for sure is growing economically, but she is still a third world country struggling for a better life for her people. (cont..)

[holmes5668]

What worries me most about the Chinese press is not what the Chinese press tells you, which as you say, many educated Chinese are able to filter. What worries me more is what the Chinese government does not tell the Chinese people. It is apparent from comments on here and other forums that many mainland Chinese have a glaring lack of knowledge Tibet and Xinjiang. If the truth were known, and there are many accurate academic accounts, then the mainland Chinese would not be so quick to condemn.

[giovaniceva]

This should be applied to all other governments. The US citizens should be worried about what Bush and Cheney hid from them, etc. This is an issue for all of us, not only for chinese people. The fact that some singled out China out of proportion in this issue, is a sign of prejudice.

[holmes5668]

If there was a massacre in Quebec or Atlanta or London, England, then the press can investigate and report back. Only in very extreme circumstances does the government have the right to prevent news being broadcast.

If there was an uprising in part of the country it would get reported.

[holmes5668]

Just to add to that. Yes, all governments cover things up, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.

If China wants to be a big player on the world stage then its dirty laundry is going to be inpsected. The bigger it gets the more interest there will be. Nobody wants a world leader who kills people for their religious and cultural beliefs. That should worry all of us. It is a step backwards.

[giovaniceva]

holmes: Nobody wants a world leader...

This actually comes from a very different paradigm, the world based on power with its superpowers. Many asian countries don't subscribe to this notion, not every country wants to be a world leader. We cannot assume everyone want to be the next USA, the self-claimed world sheriff. The future global community should not be based on power, but on mutual respects and the betterment of the whole mankind.

[holmes5668]

I admit, bad choice of words on my part. Yes, I agree China does not want the position that the US has, but it will be in a position of huge influence because of the size of its economy.

[eztomcat]

Do you still believe this time more than 140 tibetans were killed by communist troops in March 14 Lhasa tragedy? Westerns would rather believe what the exile-tibetan government says than to listen to communist government. Even if the later is telling more truth about things in Lhasa.

[holmes5668]

eztomcat: For me the jury is out. I cannot prove it either way. I do not know. I have said before, there has been bad reporting on these events. I am inteligent enough to have doubts.

Do you believe the Chinese communist government was welcomed with open arms in Xinjiang and Tibet 50 years ago?

[giovaniceva]

One of the most profound problems of western media is the dehumanizing of non-western people and countries. Western media put all thing non-western into two categories: the cutes and excotics for pleasure, and the devils. If you don't fit into western shoes, you are definitely a devil or monster. We should constantly say NO to this kind of depiction.

[holmes5668]

I think to an extent you are right. I also think George Bush's policy of 'you are either with us or against us' has increased that divide.

But really, if you want to get to the route of this problem then you have to look at academic texts and not rely on CNN and Fox. Everybody knows this is not solid reporting. I would say the same about the Renmin Ribao -this is the voice of the Chinese government, so is by nature bias

The truth often lies somewhere in the middle.

[giovaniceva]

I agree with you, and it goes beyond CNN and Fox. Canadian magazine MacLeans for example, the title of this week cover story was: "Butchers and Monsters: things we can never forget about Communist China". We went back to the 50s era of McCarthyism, currently combined with Bush doctrine of axis of evil, or Reagan's Great Satan. Most western media bought into this bullshit readily, at least in the reporting of events. (cont..)

[giovaniceva]

About Renmin Ribao or other media of the Chinese Government. Most chinese people know it's by nature the voice the government. Almost no westerners took it seriuosly. We all activied a mental built-in filter when accessing such media. But western media claimed to be the sole free press in the world, the voice of truth, and most people just took it at face value. Media bias exercized by western media is then the worst case of propaganda with profound impact of promoting global injustice.

[holmes5668]

You talk of the western media as being one body of thought, but that isn't what a 'free press' means. Free press means that I have the right tp express my view regardless of whether you like it or not. There should be, and is, a range of thought on all issues. Granted, there is no excuse for large press corporations to bend the truth, but the Chinese press is equally responsible for that kind of behaviour.

[kevinzhouhai]

love tibat of china

[theagent3]

I would think there is more overseas chinese than tibetans?

[holmes5668]

For the pro Tibetan demonstrations about 80% of Canadian Tibetans show up. for the pro Chinese demonstrations about 0.05% of mainland Chinese turn up. I wonder what the other 99.95% think?

[giovaniceva]

They are silent majority. Chinese are mostly apolitical. Some are worried being seen as a threat to the others. This is not a baseless fear. When tibetans stood in protest, westerners saw them as voice of conscience. You add some caucasians to the rank, it became voice of the people - vox populi. But when some chinese stood up against the prejudice, suddenly they were considered a bunch of brainwashed cyborgs. A deep prejudice against chinese people or china is still prevalent in north america.

[eztomcat]

We don't know what exactly the rest of the 99.95% pro-Chinese are thinking. Most Chinese didn't get used to demostrating their thoughts in an open manner even if they live in a democratic country like Canada. Confucius influenced culture, plus extreme communism control from 1949-1978, plus 1989, caused all these. But the 0.05% in this video, they are the real advanced ones. Thanks to the long term western propaganda, they are acualy the democratic applicationers. They expressed thoughts freely

[holmes5668]

Which is a good thing. I agree that the western media has bias, all media does, where ever is comes from. I am glad they can stand up and voice their concerns. But I do not see these Chinese standing up against the Chinese government and defending their Tibetan and Uighur 'brothers and sisters'. I am not talking about those that killed, but the rest who simply wanted to protest injustice and oppression. Surely, many of you mainlanders can sympathise with them.

[eztomcat]

Read a little China's history, it's no that hard to find the answer. The CPC and Kuomingtang are foes for more than half centry. But when Japanese invaded China in 1937, both parties with diffrent political views stood shoulder by shoulder. Mainland Chinese are more of nationalism than communism. If you are able to eavesdrop, these "We love China" shouters are condemning CPC's stupidity when they get back home. (Shrug) To Westerns: never try to changllenge Chinese patriotic emotions.

[holmes5668]

Then Chinese need to understand that it is the Chinese government that is being attacked for its brutality, not the Chinese people.

[eztomcat]

Otherwise, you are making more enemies to yourself than you should have made as friends.

When your beloved wife is beating your mother, do you choose to join the beating together with your wife, or stand up to protect your mother?

[jjr1712]

For you ppl out there who screaming Chinese leaders r Nazis that they use violence against "peaceful protestors", you are either ignorant or cold blooded. The evidence is out there...Rioters killed innocent ppl working& living in Tibet... they poured gasoline on ppl's bodies and burnt them on the street...There r photos taken... it's all there... Don't let ur hatred toward a political party blindfold ur consciousness

[holmes5668]

Yes, its true, some Tibetans did kill Chinese and there is no excuse for that. The evidence is there. The evidence of the deaths of 100s of 1000s of Tibetans and Uighurs is also there, but you choose to ignore the last 50 years and concentrate on one two week event in Tibet.

Violence begets violence. When people have no voice they fight back.

[giovaniceva]

Nope, you are wrong. Western countries, especially the US, use Dalai Lama and his elites, to continually provoke and stir-up China. That's actually a documented fact. Dalai Lama & his men were used by CIA and is still being used as a political toy.

China never ventured far behind her borders, while US for exmpl, went bombing other countries as routine exercises, and kept on financing countless stir-up movements in other countries.

[holmes5668]

I am not trying to provoke, but where is this documentary evidence for the period from 1970 to now? It is known that the CIA financed the Tibetan resistance in the late 1950s to (I believe) 1964, but then stopped payment when they realised the Tibetans could not win. This is well documented and the Dalai Lama has been open about it. His brother even wrote a book about it. The resistance movement (Chushi Gandruk) was based in the Mustang region of Nepal. Where is the evidence after than period?

[yaorockets88]

A peaceful demonstration, something the tibetans should learn about.

[Norepress]

A peaceful demonstration to please the Chinese masters? How convenient! China rapes Tibet, and China wants Tibet to stay still for China to enjoy raping Tibet "peacefully"!

[yaorockets88]

China is not "raping" tibet. How has tibet's tibetan population increased if there is a rape? How come the tibetans that are rebelling are all of the former noble class who used to own slaves and treated as the upper class but now that China abolished the slavery system they are dirt poor because they are too stupid and lazy to learn and become educated?

[Norepress]

Good or bad, The Tibetans decide Tibet's life. Not the Chinese. They do not to be ruled by Chinese.

[mia2099]

the desire for peace over the "free" Tibet Extremism