@eamonhoffman I disagree with this statement. I would be interested to see your proof of it -- I've thought many times of making a pointer fixed to the handlebars, pointing at a card fixed to the bike's frame. Film that as you go around corners, and we could answer these questions definitively.
In my experience, the wheel does indeed point into the turn at all speeds. If it were otherwise, the bike couldn't be balanced (handlebar force) in a turn. I've done it. No force required once leaned.
@eamonhoffman I disagree with this statement. I would be interested to see your proof of it -- I've thought many times of making a pointer fixed to the handlebars, pointing at a card fixed to the bike's frame. Film that as you go around corners, and we could answer these questions definitively.
In my experience, the wheel does indeed point into the turn at all speeds. If it were otherwise, the bike couldn't be balanced (handlebar force) in a turn. I've done it. No force required once leaned.
@eamonhoffman I disagree with this statement. I would be interested to see your proof of it -- I've thought many times of making a pointer fixed to the handlebars, pointing at a card fixed to the bike's frame. Film that as you go around corners, and we could answer these questions definitively.
In my experience, the wheel does indeed point into the turn at all speeds. If it were otherwise, the bike couldn't be balanced (handlebar force) in a turn. I've done it. No force required once leaned.
I think it could have been explained better if you mentioned G-force or as if you fill a bucket of water and you swing it around really fast it stays in the bucket. I remember when i was a kid I thought that was the coolest thing! It's clear a motorcycle works the same way i never knew that! Physics is some cool stuff!
i finally get it ... the thing that didnt understand on the other vids were that the handle bar goes the opposite side slightly then right back to the way your turning i thiught you juts keep it facing the opposite side and i was fuckin confused
that was really helpful thanks for posting, seems to be something which people find hard to explain but looks like you found a way, vids were very helpful too, before watching i thought this was some tricky thing i'd need to learn but now i've seen it i realise i've been doing it for years on my pushbike :P
Good comment. Just how I would sum up the whole mystery of Counter Steering. He certainly has the skills to make the explenation seem so simple. I also thought it must be some magical trick of manover.
maybe the word "countersteer" can cause problems to the new rider thinking he has to countersteer round and entire cornerperhaps the word JINK would be closer,anyway maybe there is no need to get into it at all it is intuitive after all,if you started telling people that walking was 90% falling people might start falling more often
Hi Ian, I think the term "countersteering" is misleading because it creates the impression that there must be two kinds of steering. To keep things straight in my own mind I view the steering bar as a control for managing lean angle. Maintain a lean angle to one side of zero degrees for long enough and the bike makes a curved path, a turn. To maintain a straight path steering is used to vary lean angle on either side of zero degrees.
nice video of swerving one direction before turning/leaning in the other. Unfortunately it had absolutely nothing to do with countersteering. There is NO countersteering at slow speeds because ther is not enough gyroscopic precession with a slowly turning wheel to cause it to lean.
I don't disagree with those dynamics. But that isn't counter-steering. Countersteering relies on the gyroscopic effect of the spinning heavy front wheel and the gyroscopic precession effect. Spin a bicycle wheel held by the axle and your hands/outstrectched arms. If it is spinning fast enough in the right direction, pushing forward on the right side of the axle will cause the top of the wheel to lean to the right. Spinning slowly doesn't produce the lean.
@DFWKen Countersteering has little to do with gyroscopes -- it'd work as well with ice skates or skis as it does with wheels, in the same inline configuration. Now turning, that involves gyroscopes to some extent, definitely (but a snowbike still turns by leaning, and doesn't need gyroscopes to do it). Countersteering is just deflecting the vector of your forward progress to produce lean, and nothing more.
You are talking about push-steering, which is how one maintains a trajectory through a turn after the turn is initiated. Counter steering refers to how to set up the turn to begin with (without relying of shifting body weight).
To set up for a turn, the bike has to be steered very briefly in the opposite direction from (counter to) the direction you want to go. That is the most effective way to cause the bike to lean in the direction we will eventually turn. That's all it is.
This video clipping does infact show counter-steering very well, countersteering can be done at all speeds but isnt a necessity, counter-steering depends more on how sharp a turn you want to make, very wide turns do not require counter steering.
(Studies on gyroscopy, now shows that gyroscopic effect on a 2 wheeler is near negligible)
Try the book "Motorcycle Design and Technology" by Gaetano Cocco. It covers the physics of high and low speed cornering on two-wheeled machines. The book is very comprehensive, but It took me a long time to read and understand it for a number of reasons: I get the impression that English is not the authors primary language; and editing is poor in spots (mislabels pictures, incorrect formulas, etc). I hope one day they will come out with a better second edition.
I agree, because the bike and rider have more mass than the wheels and the bike is actually traveling at a slightly higher speed than most of the wheel mass. So the bike has much more kinetic energy than the wheel. Therefore we need to use the bikes energy to lean it by deflecting the path for a moment. The gyroscopic effect holds us in balance only when we are in almost perfect balance since a tiny input on the steering produces much more force by path deflection
I can't see what all the mystery is about countersteering, or why everyone is so confused by it. It's dead simple.
Push the left handlebar forward and the bike will turn to the left. Push the right handlebar forward and the bike will turn to the right.
Depending how fast you are going and how hard you push will depend on how far it leans over. If you want to really get it going, as you push the bars, lean the bike as well. Best to try to keep your head upright when doing this.
Good video. However knowing about it and doing it are two different things. I rode bicycles as a kid and now I'm trying to learn to steer a motorcycle at age 48. This counter steering stuff is driving me crazy.
Everyone be very careful with countersteering if u are on a crotch rocket and need to slow down for a turn quickly this might accidently happen and send u flying into a turn back wheel fish tailing very quickly just happened to me 2 mintues ago so sketchy
very interesting. I just went out on my bicycle and did it on purpose, and it felt pretty weird. I suppose I do it all the time on a dirtbike or bicycle without knowing I was even doing it. Although I do it naturally I can't imagine doing it without thinking.
Okay so heres where I'm confused and if you are to thumbs this up so we can get a response (as long as i'm not the only one who doesn't understand). When you countersteer is the slight change in your wheel used to change where your balance is then you face the wheel into the turn, or do you face your wheel away from the turn throughout the turn?
@Rige02 "Countersteering" is momentarily turning your wheel away from the direction you want to go, to lean the bike over. The rest of the turn, you're aiming the wheel at where you want to go. Then you countersteer again (turning too far into the turn) to pick the bike up again.
@IanJSeattle this changes my previous understanding of counter steering. Watch a motorcycle racer taking a corner : I am sure he got into the corner pushing on the cornerside bar (or pulling the opposite bar) but even once he is into the turn you will see his front wheels pointing to the sky (away from the turn) not into the turn as your comment suggests. It doesnt look like the rider is aiming his wheel at where he wants to go, it looks like he is aiming in the opposite direction (ie the sky)
@Rige02 Don't worry about the wheel since you can't see it anyway. Concentrate on pushing on the inside handlebar grip - the faster you go through the turn, the harder you will be pushing forward on the inside hand-grip. Push left while turning left.
@Rige02 You have to stop countersteering when the bike is at the correct lean angle for the speed and corner. Or else you will just keep leaning further until you fall down or run onto the inside shoulder of the corner.
5***** for the security recommendations at the end... Although I've seen Keith Code II I was surprised not to see any warn of putting that in practice on public roads!!!!
At about 5 mins long, this is a good videoas far as it goes but rookie riders need to understand a whole lot more. Eg the importance of throttle control when turning in order to transer weight to the rear wheel contact patch etc etc . Buy "Twist of the Wrist II" on DVD. At 109 minutes you will learn what you need to know.
This was very informative and explained the reasoning behind countersteering. Before this vid I completely misunderstood what it was, but it all makes soooo much sense now. Thank You!
I'm not a motorcycle rider yet, but I'll have to try this on my bicycle. I can't say I've done this, but I might just do it without thinking maybe....
This is thee best guide I've ever seen on counter steering and I FINALLY understand it! THANK YOU! I remember now as a kid riding my bike and it working like this I just didn't know it was a strategy. I was just watching Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist 2 video, and reading the book and it doesn't show it like this. It makes it sound like you turn right to turn left and it just confused me like most people.
thats not true ian, it depends on the sharpness of the turn and the speed of the bike, at higher speeds u need push againt the handlebars thruout the whole turn which allows you to really lean the bike way over thru a sharp turn
I have rode bikes and dirt bikes for a while now and I know I have counted steered before but it is hurting my head trying to figure this out and I don't know why. I need to get on a bike and do it but it is pouring outside right now.
WHEN I COUNTERSTEER...do i hold the whell with little force...so that the handle bars are stright and i can then turn in the dirrectoin i wan to go? or the opasite directoin is enough to have me in a LEAN to go in that dirrection? OR do i still have to NOT only let the bike make the handle bars stright but also move the bars in the directon i wanted to go in the first place?
The MSF basic rider course is the right way to learn to ride. You learn so much more than just steering the motorcycle. This information is available to everyone. The MFS has nothing to do with the govt motorcycle license test. Make sure you have your information correct before you make false claims.
@geritolwhamfan Then we disagree. I've seen evidence that the MSF is involved in the politics of m/c licensing. PM if you want details, this has little to do with countersteering. If I deleted your previous comment, it's because it was rudely presented. This is not a democracy, and I don't have to let any old comment appear here. If you disagree with me, make your own video and post it as a response.
@geritolwhamfan Depends on what state your in. I took the MSF course in WA State and they took care of my endorsement as well. We took a riding test and a written test. All I had to do was take the endorsement to the licensing department and pay a fee and they gave me my license with 2-wheel cycle endorsement on the back :)
@geritolwhamfan MSF writes the tests for most states... they claim to be the authority and its cheaper for states to just take what the MSF says as word rather than to spend the money to go out and hire researchers, nominate experts, pay them to write exams, debate methods... yadda yadda yadda... even the MSF manual plainly states that MSF controls the material for most states...
MSF is "A" provider of curriculum... not "THE" -as they want to be. There are other options. It is much less expensive to use an established curriculum rather than reinventing the wheel -as Oregon has.
Everyone naturally countersteers, but in an emergency and without practice, some people revert to their car-driving habits, and try to turn directly in the direction they want to go, which sends them toward the danger instead of away from it.
btw. if you want to know how taking corners without counter steering would look like, try riding hands free. This way you have to get your "lean" by just shifting weight, which is very slow. You know "action equals reactio"? If you want to push yourself to the left you have to push something to the right, which means the bike would lean in the opposite direction. Only due to friction effects these to actions don't cancel themselves out.
Everybody who's riding a bike or bicycle is already countersteering, or else there would be many more people lying on the streets ;-)
But it is good to think consciously about it, because in an emergency situation counter steering is often forgotten. The "natural" reaction is to turn the steering in the direction you want to go without countersteering. This decision can be dead wrong.
Can you go more in depth as to how to pull out of a heavy turn? im new and really need to now this the easy way and not the hard way. I dont want to lose any more skin on my knee:p
If you're in a turn to the right, you steer *further* to the right to pick the bike up and straighten it out. I also suggest that "heavy turns" and "I'm new" don't go together so well. Get used to moderate maneuvers before trying the showy/high performance stuff. There's a reason you start crawling, then walking, then running.
what i dont get is say you were gonna turn to the right would you turn to the handlebars left then turn to them right immediately after turning them to the left? or would you turn the handle bars to the left and hold the handle bars to the left to turn right?
You're seriously overthinking this. Get on a bicycle and steer: you're countersteering. Apply the same thing to motorcycles. Only at high speeds or for very sharp turns (such as swerving) do you have to be aware of countersteering.
A countersteer is turning the wheel to the left to fall over to the right, then turning it right to catch yourself from falling too far. There's no formula, it's all down to feel.
Ask people this. Get a kid on training wheels on a bike without training wheels. Hold onto the kids elbows only to aid them. They have arms of steel and do not know how to countersteer. (Yes they won't really get that concept yet but they do not know that they have to catch themselves when they fall over.) They turn to the right and fall left. Once they lossen up their arms and you keep giving the counteer steer inputs, they will get catching the fall and be free never really aware of CS'ing.
Great video, great debate, many don't get it. I consciously think about counter steering when I race or ride my bicycle and have had many debates on the subject.
When going slow on a motorbike or riding a bicycle, you are always oversteering and making so many corrections you are not aware of any counter steering inputs. However if you are going slow and you are in a steady turn, first gear parking lot stuff, you will have to counter steer heavily to get out of your turn and go straight.
You DO NOT steer into the turn once leaned over. At much over 15mph bikes do not turn from the front wheel direction. Example, for a left hand turn, push the left bar to initiate the turn, bike will lean and stay in the turn with no force applied (you could remove your hands, I did this at Laguna Seca as part of a drill). Bike will turn until you either push left again (tighten) or push right to straighten.
I disagree -- the wheel is aiming into the turn, but we're really splitting hairs by debating this. I do agree that there's no "steering into the turn" force being applied to the handlebars, except at high speeds.
so, i cant say iv ever been on a motorcycle at high speed, but i never really noticed this on a regular bike either...even when hauling ass as fast as i could
i think its even easier to notice on a bicycle. Try standing in front of a bicycle holding the handle bars.. turn the handle bars and notice that the body of the bicycle leans the other way.
So would i counter steer through the whole turn? i.e. if I'm making a right turn would I have my wheel turned to the left the whole turn and then straighten out once I need to go straight again (like for an off ramp)?
No, countersteering only initiates the turn. You steer into the turn once you're leaned over and turning. You steer further into the turn to pick the bike up again (countersteering in the other direction).
That's correct, as far as it goes. You push with your right hand (thus steering to the left) to lean the bike over to the right. You push with your left hand (thus steering to the right) to lean the bike to the left. If you keep pushing, the bike falls over -- countersteering is only to get you leaned over, not to go through the turn.
So you said that at high speeds countersteering is done throughout the turn and not just initiate it? I makes sense that the steering input is very low coz I have checked many onboard videos and it barely seems like the handle bars are turned! Gr8 video .. tx
I'm not so sure I agree with that statement any more, but what I was trying to say is that *some* bikes are set up so that their self-correcting tendencies need to be counteracted throughout a turn at high enough speeds. I now think that's actually pretty rare, and once you're in a turn, there's no effort involved in staying at that angle. It is theoretically possible, though.
I don't seem to ever notice myself steering into the turn. If I'm going right at a higher speed (~>20mph), I'm either pressing the right grip or holding/releasing pressure on the grip. I only press the left grip when I'm leaning right to upright the bike from the right lean. Is it that by maintaining/releasing pressure on the grip, you are technically steering into the turn?
BTW, thanks & great job on this vid. It helped me quite a bit when I 1st started several mths ago.
you dont really realize your countersteering til you ride with your hands upsidedown with your palms faceing the sky. you realize you are pulling the bars in the oppisite direction.
Unfortunately, countersteering simply doesn't make sense until you've spent some time on a bike. I could type until my fingers fell off, and I'm not sure I could explain it without that shared experience. I can almost guarantee you'll pick it up really quickly once you get started, almost everyone does. Good luck!
ok, sorry just wanted some incite but thanks for the video and fast responses ps liked the vid.
The exaggeration of the counter-steer in this video causes confusion. It is not necessary to initiate a counter-steer. Lets assume you are taking a curve to the right. You simply adjust speed as appropriate as you approach a curve, then lean right, press slightly on the right side of the handlebars, and as you negotiate the curve outside of lane to inside and back to outside you roll on the throttle (approx. half way through the curve.) Also look to your destination as you negotiate the curve.
This video is not designed to demonstrate how you'd actually countersteer. People do that already. This is to demonstrate how countersteering actually happens, and for that to be made clear, it must be exaggerated.
I generally lean a little bit into the corner (riding on the street). You definitely shouldn't lean your body away from the corner. But yes, the bike leans, and your body goes with it.
OMG, I used to cycle to highschool every day for four years (about 18 miles a day) and i've never noticed that I instinctively countersteered on my bicycle. Since October I have been riding on a scooter, so this is video is very usefull thanks :).
so if you were coming up to a left turn do you just lean left and point the front wheel right for a second or do you lean left and turn right for the whole turn? thats what idont get. (never ridden a bike but and i am starting to get really interested in learning how to)
By aiming the wheel to the right, you to unbalance toward the left. You then point the wheel into the turn to balance the forces once you're leaned over the correct amount -- et voila, you're turning left. Steer *more* to the left to unbalance to the right until you're upright, then steer straight. It's a lot easier to do than it is to think about.
so you turn the opposite way to start the turn then with the turn when you feel it, is that what your saying? (this is the only thing that i am not sure i could do, i never even herd of counter-steering until i started to watch how to vids on youtube)
Exactly right. If you can ride a bicycle, you're already doing this, whether you know it or not. It's usually called "learning to balance," although it is actually teaching your brain how to countersteer.
The reason I posted a video about this is not to teach people how to ride. It's to teach them how to ride effectively at higher speeds. Don't worry about getting started; come back to this and watch it again after you've mastered puttering around a parking lot.
Unfortunately, countersteering simply doesn't make sense until you've spent some time on a bike. I could type until my fingers fell off, and I'm not sure I could explain it without that shared experience. I can almost guarantee you'll pick it up really quickly once you get started, almost everyone does. Good luck!
Ok, Ian, I take it that your position is that shifting your weight side to side can be used effectively and predictably to lean the bike left and right based ONLY on the weight shift elements of such an activity. (balance effects only -- no countersteer)
If true, you should be able to stop the bike and and balance it easily just by "shifting your weight side to side in your seat".
Of course not, and that's not what I was saying. I said, "I tend to use a combination of countersteering and weight-shifting at very low speeds." I *can* also steer only with countersteering or only with weight shifting. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, and that's certainly not how I ride.
If you'd like to provoke me, I'll be happy to stop approving your comments. I'm just trying to help people understand an often-misunderstood element of riding, not debate technicalities.
Ian, I think I've given you enough kudos for your effort to demonstrate that I'm not trying to provoke you. I truly do comment you for your clear video and explanations and agree with an awful lot of them.
That said, I am attempting to engage you on what I believe to be *your* misunderstandings of this often-misunderstood element of riding.
>I'd be interested in hearing of another *usable and
>effective* method of unbalancing the bike to the left
>other than right countersteer.
I told you, unbalancing by shifting weight is one of the tools I use while riding at very low speeds. I cannot demonstrate this because it also requires countersteering. That doesn't invalidate my using weight-shifting as an aspect of low-speed steering.
I can demonstrate countersteering alone, but not weight-shifting. (Cont'd)
To video weight-shifting alone would require a bike with locked steering, which would result in a crash as soon as you started the lean. I never argued that weight-shifting is sufficient by itself to steer, much less balance a bike at a dead stop, that was your request.
Thank you for your commendations, I'm glad you liked the video. I'm sorry you misunderstood my statements about weight-shifting.
All that said, countersteering still *works* at all speeds. It is *necessary* at anything much more than a walking pace. It is absolutely mandatory to safe riding (which includes the ability to steer quickly) to countersteer.
Ian, if you are the producer of this video, I commend you for your efforts and clear explanations. One of your conclusions is demonstrably wrong however.
The conclusion that at slow speeds there is another way to effectively steer the bike other than countersteer doesn't hold up.
>Turns can be started by any
>method that unbalances the bike.
I'd be interested in hearing of another *usable and effective* method of unbalancing the bike to the left other than right countersteer.
I find that when I'm actually riding, and not trying to demonstrate anything, I tend to use a combination of countersteering and weight-shifting at very low speeds. Countersteering is too strong a force for very low speeds all by itself, and so I'll shift my weight in my seat, side to side. This changes the center of gravity of me+bike, which initiates a lean. This also works at high speeds -- I can swerve my bike (very slowly) on the freeway without touching the bars. (Cont'd)
...And although it works, I'd never recommend it to anyone, because it takes seconds to initiate a slight turn, whereas countersteering takes the blink of an eye to initiate the sharpest turn I might want. All you have to do is to get the bike leaning. Countersteering is the best way, but *anything* that makes you lean, including crosswind, weight shift, a car bumping into you, etc. will start a turn. At very slow speeds, weight shift is strong enough to be a safe alternative... (Cont'd)
They claim in this video that countersteering can be used at low speeds but is neither necessary nor a good idea. However, they never once show that a turn can be initiated without countersteering. The fact is, turns at all speeds are initiated with countersteering - even if subconscious or imperceptible. A properly instrumented bike would show this to be the case.
Your first point is fair -- countersteering at low speeds is not something that should be taught as a lesson. The reason it exists in the video is that my very first intention (most obvious in my slow-speed countersteering vid) was to demonstrate that countersteering doesn't switch off at 12 mph like so many claim.
Your last two points contradict each other, and I don't agree with the third. Turns can be started by any method that unbalances the bike. Countersteering is just quickest.
I don't see where I contradict myself at any point. I believe that all riders use countersteering at all speeds to initiate turns. The only evidence I've seen to suggest it could be otherwise involved a circus performer and a long balance bar.
As we discussed in PM, I agree with you for the most part. Your contradiction was in the statements, "never.. show that a turn can be initiated without countersteering," (implying that it can be done) and "[all] turns are initiated with countersteering." After PM discussion, I understand what you were trying to say.
While I agree with you that countersteering is involved in turns at all speeds, *conscious* countersteering is not really a safe way to think about turning at low speed.
I had said you never showed that a turn can be initiated without countersteering only because it seemed the video claimed it could be done, but didn't show that it could be done. It has been my contention all along that turns are never initiated without countersteering. I also agree that countersteering can be passive (e.g. hands off the bars) and subconscious (e.g. every 10 year old that rides a bike).
Seriously man, thanks. Everyone who tried to explained countersteer to me just said "push the bars to the left to go right". No one actually explained WHY you leaned right when you turned left. You helped out a lot.
Thanks i previously watched a video on countersteering and was scratching my head. I am going to start riding bikes soon. This video cleared it right up for me. Thanks for the informative video!
This is probably the BEST explanation of counter steering I have ever heard. The MSF instructors that teach at Walnut, CA at Mt. San Antonio College don't even bother explaining it. They just skip it entirely because they deemed it too confusing to teach to students. What a load of jack offs!
I know you made a good faith effort to offer a highly simplified physical explanation of the countersteering but GOOD GOD that made my brain hemmorrage from the inaccuracy. Otherwise a beautiful video.
Unless you construct nwton's laws in a non-inertial system, there is no centrifugal force. Also, the free body diagram with "lean" as force is wrong. There is no lean force. The force that accelerates a cycle radially inward, causing the turn, is the reaction force at the points of wheel contact. Your bike exerts a frictional force on the ground, but the ground doesnt move. By Newton's third law, there is an equal/opposite frictional force on the bike radially inward and the bike turns.
Its not really that big of a deal though, since it gets the point across and you told us that the explanation was highly simplified. This isn't Vehicle Dynamics at UC Berkeley either, so I will let it slide. It just always bothers us technical geeks to see science tossed around willy nilly.
I dare say my use of science hasn't been tossed around "willy nilly." It was carefully edited to be accessible to a wide audience who mostly doesn't care about exactly which vector the reactionary frictional force uses. There's a difference between being technically accurate and being understandable, and I agree that this isn't a spot I'd show to physics students. As I've disclaimed in the video, and to everyone who's criticized me on this point, it's Highly Simplified.
This is the first example i've managed to find of this being properly/clearly explained. Countersteering seems to be more about the actual art of leaning the bike as opposed to turning it, as EVERY other place i've looked seems to fail to mention. P.s Before anyone says anything, i am aware that leaning is a vital part of turning, but you know what i mean. :) Thanks Ian.
It's a really easy mistake to make -- countersteering is a vital part of leaning, which is a vital part of turning -- so it's easy to get it all confused. Countersteering still happens when you're turning, too, but I like to keep the phases seperated out when you're thinking about them. It's clearer.
Basically if you want to turn left, you turn the wheel to the right so that your bike starts "dropping" to the left (imagine someone standing on a rug, then you pull the rug real quick), then you quickly turn the wheel left to control the turn.
@eamonhoffman I disagree with this statement. I would be interested to see your proof of it -- I've thought many times of making a pointer fixed to the handlebars, pointing at a card fixed to the bike's frame. Film that as you go around corners, and we could answer these questions definitively.
In my experience, the wheel does indeed point into the turn at all speeds. If it were otherwise, the bike couldn't be balanced (handlebar force) in a turn. I've done it. No force required once leaned.
IanJSeattle 4 months ago
@eamonhoffman I disagree with this statement. I would be interested to see your proof of it -- I've thought many times of making a pointer fixed to the handlebars, pointing at a card fixed to the bike's frame. Film that as you go around corners, and we could answer these questions definitively.
In my experience, the wheel does indeed point into the turn at all speeds. If it were otherwise, the bike couldn't be balanced (handlebar force) in a turn. I've done it. No force required once leaned.
IanJSeattle 4 months ago
@eamonhoffman I disagree with this statement. I would be interested to see your proof of it -- I've thought many times of making a pointer fixed to the handlebars, pointing at a card fixed to the bike's frame. Film that as you go around corners, and we could answer these questions definitively.
In my experience, the wheel does indeed point into the turn at all speeds. If it were otherwise, the bike couldn't be balanced (handlebar force) in a turn. I've done it. No force required once leaned.
IanJSeattle 4 months ago
Ian this again is a 1st rate video. Well done in your explenation of this move. You certainly have the skills of explenation and motorcyling.
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Harley Davidson Fat Boy
CruisingHarleyFatBoy 5 months ago
I really made to lean without counter steering, but it was a big circle road. (With a bicycle):))
dragos070395 5 months ago
I think it could have been explained better if you mentioned G-force or as if you fill a bucket of water and you swing it around really fast it stays in the bucket. I remember when i was a kid I thought that was the coolest thing! It's clear a motorcycle works the same way i never knew that! Physics is some cool stuff!
rangu66 5 months ago
i get it now too, great video!!
12345RunescapeNerd 6 months ago
i finally get it ... the thing that didnt understand on the other vids were that the handle bar goes the opposite side slightly then right back to the way your turning i thiught you juts keep it facing the opposite side and i was fuckin confused
MrDevanteCPT 6 months ago
thanks a lot man,nice video.
Defectordrunkzone 6 months ago
Finally a good explanation. I get it now. Thank you!
huhoicutube 6 months ago
Great video dude, thanks
SourNaik 8 months ago
that was really helpful thanks for posting, seems to be something which people find hard to explain but looks like you found a way, vids were very helpful too, before watching i thought this was some tricky thing i'd need to learn but now i've seen it i realise i've been doing it for years on my pushbike :P
ImEuanAndIGotsSkeelz 9 months ago
@ImEuanAndIGotsSkeelz
Good comment. Just how I would sum up the whole mystery of Counter Steering. He certainly has the skills to make the explenation seem so simple. I also thought it must be some magical trick of manover.
Regards,
Harley.Davidson.FatBoy
CruisingHarleyFatBoy 5 months ago
maybe the word "countersteer" can cause problems to the new rider thinking he has to countersteer round and entire cornerperhaps the word JINK would be closer,anyway maybe there is no need to get into it at all it is intuitive after all,if you started telling people that walking was 90% falling people might start falling more often
dnrobs 11 months ago
Hi Ian, I think the term "countersteering" is misleading because it creates the impression that there must be two kinds of steering. To keep things straight in my own mind I view the steering bar as a control for managing lean angle. Maintain a lean angle to one side of zero degrees for long enough and the bike makes a curved path, a turn. To maintain a straight path steering is used to vary lean angle on either side of zero degrees.
motormanmagoo 11 months ago
It is not gyroscopic forces if it was then you would need a heavy wheel turning with considerable RPM.
It is the curve of the motorcycle tyre.
If you roll a cylinder it it rolls in a straight line.
if you roll a cone it will rolls in a circle.
a curved motorcycle tyre is like two cones face to face so when you tilt the wheels they roll like cones.
so when leaned both wheels front and rear steer the bike in a smooth circle.
The initial twitch CS just starts the lean using the weight of the bike.
AntonyAnimation 11 months ago
I think that comes naturally when riding after just a few days........
chainsawz 1 year ago
When i saw "Money Shot", i thought i was watching a porno... :S
jactivate 1 year ago
That cleared up so much confusion. Thanks!
jaronhall 1 year ago
I understand now! Thanks.
Ransomlikespie 1 year ago
That's countersteering?
Wow, I thought it was something to do with the bike's internals... lmao, cheers for the simple explanation!
ordi75 1 year ago
You want to see countersteer and some action look at youtube video titled VINTAGE FLAT TRACK MOTOTCYCLE RACING CRASHES
rcpmac 1 year ago
When I was learning how to ride a motorcycle, I do that without thinking about it.
DeadFishFactory 1 year ago
Thank you. I like the simplicity here.
kaledovic 1 year ago
I just realized I do this shit all the time on my bike..
alboman1 1 year ago
ive been doing that since i was 5 on a peddle bike. it should be second nature
evogibson92 1 year ago
The 13 people who disliked this video can't ride anything with two wheels. ;)
SirVladDracula 1 year ago 2
nice video of swerving one direction before turning/leaning in the other. Unfortunately it had absolutely nothing to do with countersteering. There is NO countersteering at slow speeds because ther is not enough gyroscopic precession with a slowly turning wheel to cause it to lean.
DFWKen 1 year ago
@DFWKen I dare you to ride at 3 mph and push hard to the right without correcting to the left. Film it and post it as a response here.
IanJSeattle 1 year ago 25
@IanJSeattle
I don't disagree with those dynamics. But that isn't counter-steering. Countersteering relies on the gyroscopic effect of the spinning heavy front wheel and the gyroscopic precession effect. Spin a bicycle wheel held by the axle and your hands/outstrectched arms. If it is spinning fast enough in the right direction, pushing forward on the right side of the axle will cause the top of the wheel to lean to the right. Spinning slowly doesn't produce the lean.
DFWKen 1 year ago
@DFWKen Countersteering has little to do with gyroscopes -- it'd work as well with ice skates or skis as it does with wheels, in the same inline configuration. Now turning, that involves gyroscopes to some extent, definitely (but a snowbike still turns by leaning, and doesn't need gyroscopes to do it). Countersteering is just deflecting the vector of your forward progress to produce lean, and nothing more.
IanJSeattle 1 year ago 7
@DFWKen
You are talking about push-steering, which is how one maintains a trajectory through a turn after the turn is initiated. Counter steering refers to how to set up the turn to begin with (without relying of shifting body weight).
To set up for a turn, the bike has to be steered very briefly in the opposite direction from (counter to) the direction you want to go. That is the most effective way to cause the bike to lean in the direction we will eventually turn. That's all it is.
Weaseltube 9 months ago
@IanJSeattle i did that at 10 just a second ago
lol but no kidding
shanetheninja101 1 year ago
@DFWKen, @IanJSeattle
This video clipping does infact show counter-steering very well, countersteering can be done at all speeds but isnt a necessity, counter-steering depends more on how sharp a turn you want to make, very wide turns do not require counter steering.
(Studies on gyroscopy, now shows that gyroscopic effect on a 2 wheeler is near negligible)
karthiksk 1 year ago 7
@karthiksk Interesting. Do you have any citations on those studies? I'm curious to learn more.
IanJSeattle 1 year ago
@IanJSeattle here's the link
wwwdotmisconceptionjunctiondotcom /index.php/2010/08/gyroscopic-effects-have-almost-nothing-to-do-with-keeping-you-balanced-on-a-bike/
karthiksk 1 year ago
@IanJSeattle
Try the book "Motorcycle Design and Technology" by Gaetano Cocco. It covers the physics of high and low speed cornering on two-wheeled machines. The book is very comprehensive, but It took me a long time to read and understand it for a number of reasons: I get the impression that English is not the authors primary language; and editing is poor in spots (mislabels pictures, incorrect formulas, etc). I hope one day they will come out with a better second edition.
paullschexnayder 11 months ago
@karthiksk It's a necessity if you want to actually turn at 60mph on a motorcycle without running off a road.
bendystix 1 year ago
@karthiksk
I agree, because the bike and rider have more mass than the wheels and the bike is actually traveling at a slightly higher speed than most of the wheel mass. So the bike has much more kinetic energy than the wheel. Therefore we need to use the bikes energy to lean it by deflecting the path for a moment. The gyroscopic effect holds us in balance only when we are in almost perfect balance since a tiny input on the steering produces much more force by path deflection
cromrke 10 months ago
@DFWKen It's actually been done on a bike with counter-rotating weights. Precession is not what leans a bike.
allmhuran 8 months ago
Remember push the left handlebar forward and the bike goes left. Push the right handlebar forward and the bike goes right.
forget about all the geometry and what the wheel is doing.
Push left, go left. Push right, go right.
MrBurgman08 1 year ago
I can't see what all the mystery is about countersteering, or why everyone is so confused by it. It's dead simple.
Push the left handlebar forward and the bike will turn to the left. Push the right handlebar forward and the bike will turn to the right.
Depending how fast you are going and how hard you push will depend on how far it leans over. If you want to really get it going, as you push the bars, lean the bike as well. Best to try to keep your head upright when doing this.
MrBurgman08 1 year ago
Loved this video!
edlewis100 1 year ago
Good video. However knowing about it and doing it are two different things. I rode bicycles as a kid and now I'm trying to learn to steer a motorcycle at age 48. This counter steering stuff is driving me crazy.
n4mwd 1 year ago
OHHHH so you have to counter steer just for a brief moment and then during the turn keep turning like you would in a car?
If that's right then this is the best counter steering video i've seen on youtube! lol
adamenko89 1 year ago
very well explained, cheers.
fylde456 1 year ago
I just realized that I've been countersteering since I was 5. Great video, excellent examples and demonstrations!
GooseThunderfoot 1 year ago
@GooseThunderfoot me too. i do this but never thought about it
amigopuerco 1 year ago
Everyone be very careful with countersteering if u are on a crotch rocket and need to slow down for a turn quickly this might accidently happen and send u flying into a turn back wheel fish tailing very quickly just happened to me 2 mintues ago so sketchy
jordansb8 1 year ago
Centripetal force* . nice vid
bobwilson333 1 year ago
very interesting. I just went out on my bicycle and did it on purpose, and it felt pretty weird. I suppose I do it all the time on a dirtbike or bicycle without knowing I was even doing it. Although I do it naturally I can't imagine doing it without thinking.
me1108 1 year ago
Okay so heres where I'm confused and if you are to thumbs this up so we can get a response (as long as i'm not the only one who doesn't understand). When you countersteer is the slight change in your wheel used to change where your balance is then you face the wheel into the turn, or do you face your wheel away from the turn throughout the turn?
Rige02 1 year ago
@Rige02 "Countersteering" is momentarily turning your wheel away from the direction you want to go, to lean the bike over. The rest of the turn, you're aiming the wheel at where you want to go. Then you countersteer again (turning too far into the turn) to pick the bike up again.
IanJSeattle 1 year ago 2
@IanJSeattle thank you!
Rige02 1 year ago
@IanJSeattle this changes my previous understanding of counter steering. Watch a motorcycle racer taking a corner : I am sure he got into the corner pushing on the cornerside bar (or pulling the opposite bar) but even once he is into the turn you will see his front wheels pointing to the sky (away from the turn) not into the turn as your comment suggests. It doesnt look like the rider is aiming his wheel at where he wants to go, it looks like he is aiming in the opposite direction (ie the sky)
BillAndersonNS 1 year ago
@Rige02 Don't worry about the wheel since you can't see it anyway. Concentrate on pushing on the inside handlebar grip - the faster you go through the turn, the harder you will be pushing forward on the inside hand-grip. Push left while turning left.
CaneFu 1 year ago
@Rige02 You have to stop countersteering when the bike is at the correct lean angle for the speed and corner. Or else you will just keep leaning further until you fall down or run onto the inside shoulder of the corner.
rbez1984 1 year ago
5***** for the security recommendations at the end... Although I've seen Keith Code II I was surprised not to see any warn of putting that in practice on public roads!!!!
thydusk666 1 year ago
keep this up and others will get it , very nice explenation and shots
transdetendal 1 year ago
This is awesome! The (simple) explanations and video clips should really help (most) new riders begin to understand the concept(s). Great info!
Gives them the tools necessary to go practice and learn how (best) to apply the technique(s) within the limits of their bike and their skill.
This is great! KM
KMMCSafety 1 year ago
i still dont understand..
stockedmuscle 1 year ago
Excellent, informative video!
SpazmoRogue 1 year ago
At about 5 mins long, this is a good videoas far as it goes but rookie riders need to understand a whole lot more. Eg the importance of throttle control when turning in order to transer weight to the rear wheel contact patch etc etc . Buy "Twist of the Wrist II" on DVD. At 109 minutes you will learn what you need to know.
TRUFFLEHOUNDEXPRESS 1 year ago
@TRUFFLEHOUNDEXPRESS Yep, this is definitely only intended to cover countersteering. There's a lot more one needs to know to ride well.
IanJSeattle 1 year ago
Thanks for what I thought was YouTube's best explanation of counter steering.
Prior to this video, I was confused as to what it meant.
Thanks for taking the time to help us out
cuteIslandGirls 1 year ago
This was very informative and explained the reasoning behind countersteering. Before this vid I completely misunderstood what it was, but it all makes soooo much sense now. Thank You!
iannosaurus 1 year ago
I'm not a motorcycle rider yet, but I'll have to try this on my bicycle. I can't say I've done this, but I might just do it without thinking maybe....
darkling9109 1 year ago
This is thee best guide I've ever seen on counter steering and I FINALLY understand it! THANK YOU! I remember now as a kid riding my bike and it working like this I just didn't know it was a strategy. I was just watching Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist 2 video, and reading the book and it doesn't show it like this. It makes it sound like you turn right to turn left and it just confused me like most people.
TheFutureLooksGrimm 1 year ago
thats not true ian, it depends on the sharpness of the turn and the speed of the bike, at higher speeds u need push againt the handlebars thruout the whole turn which allows you to really lean the bike way over thru a sharp turn
bajabilly2004 1 year ago
Muito legal o vídeo! Explicou bem o princípio do contra-esterço!
Parabéns!
Great video! Tranks!
biowolf99 1 year ago
I have rode bikes and dirt bikes for a while now and I know I have counted steered before but it is hurting my head trying to figure this out and I don't know why. I need to get on a bike and do it but it is pouring outside right now.
slickyd86 2 years ago
good vid been woundering what counterstearing ment lol
SMG59 2 years ago
Excellent video. I just realized I had been countersteering this whole time and I never realized I was doing it.
mouse743 2 years ago
just do it on a bicycle - u will see instantly - you do it without thinking - if u keep thinking about it u will mess up -
haangout 2 years ago 2
Yep. Especially a road bike.
Anavengertg 2 years ago
waow this was the only video that finally made me understand how its done, thank you!!
Now I have to practice:)
Sparrowmind 2 years ago
WHEN I COUNTERSTEER...do i hold the whell with little force...so that the handle bars are stright and i can then turn in the dirrectoin i wan to go? or the opasite directoin is enough to have me in a LEAN to go in that dirrection? OR do i still have to NOT only let the bike make the handle bars stright but also move the bars in the directon i wanted to go in the first place?
vacationboyvideos 2 years ago
Lol, when I read about counter steering on Howstuffworks, I was all WTF??? but then watching this, I realize I do this on my bicycle voluntarily :P
MrNik1001 2 years ago
Great explanation of how this works.
slushpuppy89 2 years ago
thank you, I understand now!
deadxenophobe 2 years ago
Too bad MSF censors countersteering from all govt motorcycle "license" tests, to extort riders to pay $100 for 1,000 MSF schools..
operationnorthwoodz 2 years ago
The MSF basic rider course is the right way to learn to ride. You learn so much more than just steering the motorcycle. This information is available to everyone. The MFS has nothing to do with the govt motorcycle license test. Make sure you have your information correct before you make false claims.
geritolwhamfan 2 years ago
@geritolwhamfan What false claims have I hade?
IanJSeattle 1 year ago 2
@IanJSeattle you made a comment that the MSF was involved with the politics of the licensing of motorcyclist.
The MSF is in no way involved in that process
geritolwhamfan 1 year ago
@geritolwhamfan Then we disagree. I've seen evidence that the MSF is involved in the politics of m/c licensing. PM if you want details, this has little to do with countersteering. If I deleted your previous comment, it's because it was rudely presented. This is not a democracy, and I don't have to let any old comment appear here. If you disagree with me, make your own video and post it as a response.
IanJSeattle 1 year ago 4
@IanJSeattle No argument from me. it is not worth my time. You deleted your comment not mine. Great video. One of the few that are correct
geritolwhamfan 1 year ago
@geritolwhamfan Depends on what state your in. I took the MSF course in WA State and they took care of my endorsement as well. We took a riding test and a written test. All I had to do was take the endorsement to the licensing department and pay a fee and they gave me my license with 2-wheel cycle endorsement on the back :)
mintydent 1 year ago
@geritolwhamfan MSF writes the tests for most states... they claim to be the authority and its cheaper for states to just take what the MSF says as word rather than to spend the money to go out and hire researchers, nominate experts, pay them to write exams, debate methods... yadda yadda yadda... even the MSF manual plainly states that MSF controls the material for most states...
infotechsailor 1 year ago
@infotechsailor
MSF is "A" provider of curriculum... not "THE" -as they want to be. There are other options. It is much less expensive to use an established curriculum rather than reinventing the wheel -as Oregon has.
KMMCSafety 1 year ago
Best video on counter steering on youtube! finally i get it haha, thanks!
vg1945 2 years ago 2
5 stars!
Best explanation I've seen
ImMatches 2 years ago 2
Are there people who can't "naturally" countersteer on a motorcycle? I can't imagine what it would be like to have to LEARN to countersteer :O
ChaosmanOne 2 years ago 2
Everyone naturally countersteers, but in an emergency and without practice, some people revert to their car-driving habits, and try to turn directly in the direction they want to go, which sends them toward the danger instead of away from it.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
btw. if you want to know how taking corners without counter steering would look like, try riding hands free. This way you have to get your "lean" by just shifting weight, which is very slow. You know "action equals reactio"? If you want to push yourself to the left you have to push something to the right, which means the bike would lean in the opposite direction. Only due to friction effects these to actions don't cancel themselves out.
polyatheist 2 years ago
Everybody who's riding a bike or bicycle is already countersteering, or else there would be many more people lying on the streets ;-)
But it is good to think consciously about it, because in an emergency situation counter steering is often forgotten. The "natural" reaction is to turn the steering in the direction you want to go without countersteering. This decision can be dead wrong.
polyatheist 2 years ago
i did it!! and i got a broken bone!! ^^ that was effing COOL
09204418448 2 years ago
lol i still dont understand counter streeting xD
ICE095 2 years ago
Awesome video!
Makes it simple!
Seljegut 2 years ago
Can you go more in depth as to how to pull out of a heavy turn? im new and really need to now this the easy way and not the hard way. I dont want to lose any more skin on my knee:p
da9illest821 2 years ago
If you're in a turn to the right, you steer *further* to the right to pick the bike up and straighten it out. I also suggest that "heavy turns" and "I'm new" don't go together so well. Get used to moderate maneuvers before trying the showy/high performance stuff. There's a reason you start crawling, then walking, then running.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
what i dont get is say you were gonna turn to the right would you turn to the handlebars left then turn to them right immediately after turning them to the left? or would you turn the handle bars to the left and hold the handle bars to the left to turn right?
please reply
xxxHARDxDRIVExxx 2 years ago
You're seriously overthinking this. Get on a bicycle and steer: you're countersteering. Apply the same thing to motorcycles. Only at high speeds or for very sharp turns (such as swerving) do you have to be aware of countersteering.
A countersteer is turning the wheel to the left to fall over to the right, then turning it right to catch yourself from falling too far. There's no formula, it's all down to feel.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
Ask people this. Get a kid on training wheels on a bike without training wheels. Hold onto the kids elbows only to aid them. They have arms of steel and do not know how to countersteer. (Yes they won't really get that concept yet but they do not know that they have to catch themselves when they fall over.) They turn to the right and fall left. Once they lossen up their arms and you keep giving the counteer steer inputs, they will get catching the fall and be free never really aware of CS'ing.
slickityjimmy 2 years ago
Great video, great debate, many don't get it. I consciously think about counter steering when I race or ride my bicycle and have had many debates on the subject.
When going slow on a motorbike or riding a bicycle, you are always oversteering and making so many corrections you are not aware of any counter steering inputs. However if you are going slow and you are in a steady turn, first gear parking lot stuff, you will have to counter steer heavily to get out of your turn and go straight.
slickityjimmy 2 years ago
You DO NOT steer into the turn once leaned over. At much over 15mph bikes do not turn from the front wheel direction. Example, for a left hand turn, push the left bar to initiate the turn, bike will lean and stay in the turn with no force applied (you could remove your hands, I did this at Laguna Seca as part of a drill). Bike will turn until you either push left again (tighten) or push right to straighten.
Loz997S 2 years ago
I disagree -- the wheel is aiming into the turn, but we're really splitting hairs by debating this. I do agree that there's no "steering into the turn" force being applied to the handlebars, except at high speeds.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
so, i cant say iv ever been on a motorcycle at high speed, but i never really noticed this on a regular bike either...even when hauling ass as fast as i could
JakeB090489 2 years ago
It's very hard to notice on a bicycle, because they're so light. Get going 80 MPH on a motorcycle, and you can't steer without it.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
i think its even easier to notice on a bicycle. Try standing in front of a bicycle holding the handle bars.. turn the handle bars and notice that the body of the bicycle leans the other way.
shogrran 2 years ago
So would i counter steer through the whole turn? i.e. if I'm making a right turn would I have my wheel turned to the left the whole turn and then straighten out once I need to go straight again (like for an off ramp)?
teatimecrumpet 2 years ago
No, countersteering only initiates the turn. You steer into the turn once you're leaned over and turning. You steer further into the turn to pick the bike up again (countersteering in the other direction).
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
see im confused mordeth13 said push right to go right
CIutch94 2 years ago
That's correct, as far as it goes. You push with your right hand (thus steering to the left) to lean the bike over to the right. You push with your left hand (thus steering to the right) to lean the bike to the left. If you keep pushing, the bike falls over -- countersteering is only to get you leaned over, not to go through the turn.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
FINALLLY!!! i understand it.
Megatron24 2 years ago
Now I understand. Thanks for the explanation.
6stringbadger 2 years ago
i just realized i do that all that time.
on my bike
isidabomb 2 years ago
oooh i get it now
adamgamedude 2 years ago
So you said that at high speeds countersteering is done throughout the turn and not just initiate it? I makes sense that the steering input is very low coz I have checked many onboard videos and it barely seems like the handle bars are turned! Gr8 video .. tx
deepsudeep 2 years ago
I'm not so sure I agree with that statement any more, but what I was trying to say is that *some* bikes are set up so that their self-correcting tendencies need to be counteracted throughout a turn at high enough speeds. I now think that's actually pretty rare, and once you're in a turn, there's no effort involved in staying at that angle. It is theoretically possible, though.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
Hi Ian,
I don't seem to ever notice myself steering into the turn. If I'm going right at a higher speed (~>20mph), I'm either pressing the right grip or holding/releasing pressure on the grip. I only press the left grip when I'm leaning right to upright the bike from the right lean. Is it that by maintaining/releasing pressure on the grip, you are technically steering into the turn?
BTW, thanks & great job on this vid. It helped me quite a bit when I 1st started several mths ago.
TruTin09 2 years ago
you dont really realize your countersteering til you ride with your hands upsidedown with your palms faceing the sky. you realize you are pulling the bars in the oppisite direction.
really good video!!
red1100cc 2 years ago
Another good example is trying to steer into a turn one handed @15mph
runxner 2 years ago
Unfortunately, countersteering simply doesn't make sense until you've spent some time on a bike. I could type until my fingers fell off, and I'm not sure I could explain it without that shared experience. I can almost guarantee you'll pick it up really quickly once you get started, almost everyone does. Good luck!
ok, sorry just wanted some incite but thanks for the video and fast responses ps liked the vid.
sunupor112 2 years ago
Very useful video, especially given that I'm about to scratch a random itch and get a bike. Thanks for this.
Seer1185 2 years ago
Do it! I just got one a couple days ago, so much fun.
stevus85 2 years ago
The exaggeration of the counter-steer in this video causes confusion. It is not necessary to initiate a counter-steer. Lets assume you are taking a curve to the right. You simply adjust speed as appropriate as you approach a curve, then lean right, press slightly on the right side of the handlebars, and as you negotiate the curve outside of lane to inside and back to outside you roll on the throttle (approx. half way through the curve.) Also look to your destination as you negotiate the curve.
tantuine 2 years ago
This video is not designed to demonstrate how you'd actually countersteer. People do that already. This is to demonstrate how countersteering actually happens, and for that to be made clear, it must be exaggerated.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
thanks for the video ian.
one question though: you're not actively leaning though right? the bike will lean itself?
4fastweb 2 years ago
I generally lean a little bit into the corner (riding on the street). You definitely shouldn't lean your body away from the corner. But yes, the bike leans, and your body goes with it.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
OMG, I used to cycle to highschool every day for four years (about 18 miles a day) and i've never noticed that I instinctively countersteered on my bicycle. Since October I have been riding on a scooter, so this is video is very usefull thanks :).
danniethe123 2 years ago
so if you were coming up to a left turn do you just lean left and point the front wheel right for a second or do you lean left and turn right for the whole turn? thats what idont get. (never ridden a bike but and i am starting to get really interested in learning how to)
kyle2222222 2 years ago
By aiming the wheel to the right, you to unbalance toward the left. You then point the wheel into the turn to balance the forces once you're leaned over the correct amount -- et voila, you're turning left. Steer *more* to the left to unbalance to the right until you're upright, then steer straight. It's a lot easier to do than it is to think about.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
so you turn the opposite way to start the turn then with the turn when you feel it, is that what your saying? (this is the only thing that i am not sure i could do, i never even herd of counter-steering until i started to watch how to vids on youtube)
kyle2222222 2 years ago
Exactly right. If you can ride a bicycle, you're already doing this, whether you know it or not. It's usually called "learning to balance," although it is actually teaching your brain how to countersteer.
The reason I posted a video about this is not to teach people how to ride. It's to teach them how to ride effectively at higher speeds. Don't worry about getting started; come back to this and watch it again after you've mastered puttering around a parking lot.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
ok, sorry just wanted some incite but thanks for the video and fast responses ps liked the vid.
kyle2222222 2 years ago
Unfortunately, countersteering simply doesn't make sense until you've spent some time on a bike. I could type until my fingers fell off, and I'm not sure I could explain it without that shared experience. I can almost guarantee you'll pick it up really quickly once you get started, almost everyone does. Good luck!
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
Great video, I just got my motorcycle license and never understood this concept. Thanks!!
lordziron 2 years ago
> ... so I'll shift my weight in my seat,
>side to side.
Ok, Ian, I take it that your position is that shifting your weight side to side can be used effectively and predictably to lean the bike left and right based ONLY on the weight shift elements of such an activity. (balance effects only -- no countersteer)
If true, you should be able to stop the bike and and balance it easily just by "shifting your weight side to side in your seat".
Can you? Video showing it?
Thanks.
TraderTurok 2 years ago
Of course not, and that's not what I was saying. I said, "I tend to use a combination of countersteering and weight-shifting at very low speeds." I *can* also steer only with countersteering or only with weight shifting. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, and that's certainly not how I ride.
If you'd like to provoke me, I'll be happy to stop approving your comments. I'm just trying to help people understand an often-misunderstood element of riding, not debate technicalities.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
Ian, I think I've given you enough kudos for your effort to demonstrate that I'm not trying to provoke you. I truly do comment you for your clear video and explanations and agree with an awful lot of them.
That said, I am attempting to engage you on what I believe to be *your* misunderstandings of this often-misunderstood element of riding.
Fair enough?
JB
TraderTurok 2 years ago
Ok, engage on what?
>I'd be interested in hearing of another *usable and
>effective* method of unbalancing the bike to the left
>other than right countersteer.
I told you, unbalancing by shifting weight is one of the tools I use while riding at very low speeds. I cannot demonstrate this because it also requires countersteering. That doesn't invalidate my using weight-shifting as an aspect of low-speed steering.
I can demonstrate countersteering alone, but not weight-shifting. (Cont'd)
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
To video weight-shifting alone would require a bike with locked steering, which would result in a crash as soon as you started the lean. I never argued that weight-shifting is sufficient by itself to steer, much less balance a bike at a dead stop, that was your request.
Thank you for your commendations, I'm glad you liked the video. I'm sorry you misunderstood my statements about weight-shifting.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
...to pure countersteering.
All that said, countersteering still *works* at all speeds. It is *necessary* at anything much more than a walking pace. It is absolutely mandatory to safe riding (which includes the ability to steer quickly) to countersteer.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
Ian, if you are the producer of this video, I commend you for your efforts and clear explanations. One of your conclusions is demonstrably wrong however.
The conclusion that at slow speeds there is another way to effectively steer the bike other than countersteer doesn't hold up.
>Turns can be started by any
>method that unbalances the bike.
I'd be interested in hearing of another *usable and effective* method of unbalancing the bike to the left other than right countersteer.
TraderTurok 2 years ago
I find that when I'm actually riding, and not trying to demonstrate anything, I tend to use a combination of countersteering and weight-shifting at very low speeds. Countersteering is too strong a force for very low speeds all by itself, and so I'll shift my weight in my seat, side to side. This changes the center of gravity of me+bike, which initiates a lean. This also works at high speeds -- I can swerve my bike (very slowly) on the freeway without touching the bars. (Cont'd)
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
...And although it works, I'd never recommend it to anyone, because it takes seconds to initiate a slight turn, whereas countersteering takes the blink of an eye to initiate the sharpest turn I might want. All you have to do is to get the bike leaning. Countersteering is the best way, but *anything* that makes you lean, including crosswind, weight shift, a car bumping into you, etc. will start a turn. At very slow speeds, weight shift is strong enough to be a safe alternative... (Cont'd)
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
They claim in this video that countersteering can be used at low speeds but is neither necessary nor a good idea. However, they never once show that a turn can be initiated without countersteering. The fact is, turns at all speeds are initiated with countersteering - even if subconscious or imperceptible. A properly instrumented bike would show this to be the case.
spork33 2 years ago
Your first point is fair -- countersteering at low speeds is not something that should be taught as a lesson. The reason it exists in the video is that my very first intention (most obvious in my slow-speed countersteering vid) was to demonstrate that countersteering doesn't switch off at 12 mph like so many claim.
Your last two points contradict each other, and I don't agree with the third. Turns can be started by any method that unbalances the bike. Countersteering is just quickest.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
I don't see where I contradict myself at any point. I believe that all riders use countersteering at all speeds to initiate turns. The only evidence I've seen to suggest it could be otherwise involved a circus performer and a long balance bar.
But a regular guy on a regular bike - nope.
spork33 2 years ago
As we discussed in PM, I agree with you for the most part. Your contradiction was in the statements, "never.. show that a turn can be initiated without countersteering," (implying that it can be done) and "[all] turns are initiated with countersteering." After PM discussion, I understand what you were trying to say.
While I agree with you that countersteering is involved in turns at all speeds, *conscious* countersteering is not really a safe way to think about turning at low speed.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
I had said you never showed that a turn can be initiated without countersteering only because it seemed the video claimed it could be done, but didn't show that it could be done. It has been my contention all along that turns are never initiated without countersteering. I also agree that countersteering can be passive (e.g. hands off the bars) and subconscious (e.g. every 10 year old that rides a bike).
spork33 2 years ago
cool, and here i thought riding a motorcycle was exactly like riding a bike
ortzinator 2 years ago
awesome video thanks!!!!
doworktysin 2 years ago
Seriously man, thanks. Everyone who tried to explained countersteer to me just said "push the bars to the left to go right". No one actually explained WHY you leaned right when you turned left. You helped out a lot.
muckluck12 2 years ago 2
Thanks i previously watched a video on countersteering and was scratching my head. I am going to start riding bikes soon. This video cleared it right up for me. Thanks for the informative video!
supersayin11178 2 years ago
Cleaned things up for me, many thanks.
OhMurray 3 years ago
physics is wrong (inertial reaction to centripital force...its tecnically an inward force) but it gets the point across very well
spikeyeyerish 3 years ago
This is probably the BEST explanation of counter steering I have ever heard. The MSF instructors that teach at Walnut, CA at Mt. San Antonio College don't even bother explaining it. They just skip it entirely because they deemed it too confusing to teach to students. What a load of jack offs!
tallius84 3 years ago
I know you made a good faith effort to offer a highly simplified physical explanation of the countersteering but GOOD GOD that made my brain hemmorrage from the inaccuracy. Otherwise a beautiful video.
DaylightRobberyCA 3 years ago
Would you care to enlighten us as to what those inaccuracies were?
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
Unless you construct nwton's laws in a non-inertial system, there is no centrifugal force. Also, the free body diagram with "lean" as force is wrong. There is no lean force. The force that accelerates a cycle radially inward, causing the turn, is the reaction force at the points of wheel contact. Your bike exerts a frictional force on the ground, but the ground doesnt move. By Newton's third law, there is an equal/opposite frictional force on the bike radially inward and the bike turns.
DaylightRobberyCA 2 years ago
Its not really that big of a deal though, since it gets the point across and you told us that the explanation was highly simplified. This isn't Vehicle Dynamics at UC Berkeley either, so I will let it slide. It just always bothers us technical geeks to see science tossed around willy nilly.
DaylightRobberyCA 2 years ago
I dare say my use of science hasn't been tossed around "willy nilly." It was carefully edited to be accessible to a wide audience who mostly doesn't care about exactly which vector the reactionary frictional force uses. There's a difference between being technically accurate and being understandable, and I agree that this isn't a spot I'd show to physics students. As I've disclaimed in the video, and to everyone who's criticized me on this point, it's Highly Simplified.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago
Point taken.
Thanks for the video sir!
DaylightRobberyCA 2 years ago
Thanks.... dude .. by the way you are an excellent cartoonist.
bucetapussy 3 years ago
This is the first example i've managed to find of this being properly/clearly explained. Countersteering seems to be more about the actual art of leaning the bike as opposed to turning it, as EVERY other place i've looked seems to fail to mention. P.s Before anyone says anything, i am aware that leaning is a vital part of turning, but you know what i mean. :) Thanks Ian.
stevietron 3 years ago
It's a really easy mistake to make -- countersteering is a vital part of leaning, which is a vital part of turning -- so it's easy to get it all confused. Countersteering still happens when you're turning, too, but I like to keep the phases seperated out when you're thinking about them. It's clearer.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
good video
shanon844 3 years ago
Terrific. Great production too.
pianofood 3 years ago
very nice :-)
reyshare 3 years ago
Thanks a lot man!! Best explanation ever;)
oOkebolamadaOo 3 years ago
Very informative - thanks!
josdaboss 3 years ago
I don't know how it doesn't make sense.
Basically if you want to turn left, you turn the wheel to the right so that your bike starts "dropping" to the left (imagine someone standing on a rug, then you pull the rug real quick), then you quickly turn the wheel left to control the turn.
nlitement 3 years ago
Informative.:)
buntonghininga 3 years ago