The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Another fine product from the manuscript of Westcott and Hort. Others include the ASV, NIV, TEV, NASV, NLT and the other 200 or so perversions of God's word that came out in the last 120 years. We can also thank them for developing the school of textual criticism that has plagued our bible colleges resulting in pulpits being filled with men who have been educated out of their faith in the inerrancy of God's word and lie about it to keep a job.
@DraugarX Let me try again. Christ ministered to those souls who had gone before he died, and gave them all a chance to either accept Christ or reject him. This happend during the period between his death and resurrection, There are other verses which say that those would be given a chance. One key point, these people did not reject Christ during their lifes!
Basically each of these people had a chance to accept Christ or reject them. Is this that hard to understand?
wat's hell and how was it made? was it pre-created from god for evil work or once inside they could repent whole souled to suffer. i was taught god forgives and that he/she/it or watever you call em cant be tried for evil. god isnt love, peaceable, or anything in galations 5:22
@dangerman808 Hell is the absence of God. We are all made for God, however we also have the free choice to choose him or not him. God honors that choice. Those in hell are suffering because they know what they have given up. Rather than ask God for mercy, they prefer to curse and hate him.
Besides God being good, he is also Just. Justice demands recompensation for our actions.
@dangerman808 Hell is God's mercy. It is a place where those who reject him can be out of his presence. CCC 1035 ... Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs
@dangerman808 there is no hell. By this, I mean a place where you go. Hell is a place spoken of in other religions that the Roman Catholic Church incorporated into Christianity.
This way, if God can send you to a place of eternal pain and suffering for not complying, for not being obedient, for not doing as you are told..the Catholic Church, in its place as God on earth and the Vicar of christ, is afforded, at least, the authority to dish out a little pain and suffering here on earth.
@DraugarX This is a lovely concept... no matter what we do in life, God understand that we are fallible and forgives us. A loving God could never send someone to eternal suffering no matter how bad they were. Is this what you believe?
@DraugarXWhy should I waste my time answering you when you don't want to be answered? You have as much told me so. When you are ready for answers let me know.
Until then I suggest you take a good college level course in biblical studies.
I Pet 3 [18] Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, [19] In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: [20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
@DraugarX Christ ministered to those souls who had gone before he died, and gave them all a chance to either accept Christ or reject him. This happend during the period between his death and resurrection, There are other verses which say that those would be given a chance. One key point, these people did not reject Christ during their lifes!
@kgxxx10 I will give you 10 minutes to answer. After that, I will be ignoring you even though you follow me around.
You said they were WICKED and deserving of Gods Punishment..NOW, they get a second chance?
Lets see, they deserved to be slaughtered, including their wives and children, EXCEPT their teenage daughters, they were to by JESUS to keep them for SEX, and the little babies cut into pieces. They even slaughtered their animals.
@ 1:41 Dr. Mantey states "You can't follow theirs because it's biased, and it's deceptive, because they deliberately changed the words in the passage of scripture to make it fit into their doctrine. They distorted the scripture in many passages, scores and scores of passages in the New Testament dealing with the deity of Christ especially." Brilliantly stated and dead on.
You mentioned that my posts have been spammed as well. Frankly, I have no idea if one of my own posts has been spammed.
I don't know if it possible to tell on my end. At any rate, I do see my posts on the main page here and I have not, as yet, seen that they have been spammed on the "see all comments" option.
Perhaps they could have been spammed and I just don't see it on my end.
However, I still think that spamming is very much a SIN AGAINST OBJECTIVE TRUTH itself and DUMB!!
Did you know.....A new King James Bible has broken a centuries-old tradition and is following in the footsteps of several Bible translations that restored the Divine Name to its original place in the Old Testament.
Read more: Cleveland Daily Banner - WRIGHT WAY: A New King James Bible
YOU ARE ALMOST 100% CERTAIN DEAD WRONG, sorry to say!
My seven posts were visible for several hours. Then they were suddenly spammed. You are saying [if I don't misunderstand you] that there's some glitch in YT responslible for this.
I don't believe that.
No! I was thoroughly spammed by someone.
I am NOT going to take that again.
I exerted mysef - all 7 were spammed.
I refuse to comment here.
If you have something to say to me, say it on my wall or on my wall.
@tommotian Yes I have to agree I am wrong. Prods posts were visible and then got marked as spam. This is sad. I guess the people can't provide any real answers, so they feel they need to silence you. This is very sad.
I would like to take on this topic as well as others you mentioned, but right now I have to go to work, so I will give answer when I return. Until then, I do hope that others post their own answers to your questions.
"Is it right for religions to side with countries?"
No doubt you ask this because you feel uncomfortable with the possibility that a particular religion may "side" with a particular political movement or party or a civil leader may wish to seek support from religious leaders.
This is a valid question which should be discussed.
The Watchtower's very foundation has much to do with this concern and it has used this as a "banner" of sorts.
@ProdigalSonship religions side with countries yea? countries war against each other yea? religious ppl are in the army yea? do ppl from same religion pray for the death of a fellow believer? does their god accept siding with armies to kill? i dont know wat to think about this
tommotian i see ur points, but u dont seem to take any deep knowledge of other things. then u can only be right. u develop this type of ''hate'' for the JW's. everybody u may think u r right and also i do that, but u need to reasonable and teachable to fully understand. ask yourself do u accept to hear the teachings of others only to weigh it against something else or do u lean on your understanding and use the deceptive mouth to influence ur comments. many conflicts and i have more answers.
i saw in spammed comments that u dont judge an army by its deserters, but by the loyal ones. i see all ur statements and reasonings. yet i need more proof than talking to former JW's. now i have questions. is it right for religions to side with countries e.g. hitler with catholics. can someone come to be reasonable if he/she favors one subject over another. i only see the comments of people only saying that they talked to some former JW's and yet no proof. hell is a concept and open to talk
@dangerman808 I was the one who said we don't judge and army by the deserters. Scripture also tells us we are to pray for our leaders. I Tim 2 [1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
dangerman808 Hell is more then a concept, it is a real place/state of being.
Matt 5:22. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Jesus is raising the bar here and the commandment not to kill. By disrespecitng your brother you put yourself into danger.
Matt 13 [41] The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity. [42] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Jesus is warning us that there will be a judgement, and those who are doing bad things will be punshied for this! Don't ignore this.
@dangerman808 No I don't know what you mean. God does not temp us, we freely do things that are wrong. James 1:13 is saying that we can't blame God for our mistakes.
@kgxxx10 yes. our actions gets us in trouble. we r accountable to that, but does repentance mean nothing then? or is it only for special ppl who accept ur god.
@dangerman808 Yes repentance means something. However if you are not truly sorry for your actions, how can there be any repentance? God saves whom he wishes, whomever come to him. However if you come to the wrong God, how can this save you? God is both merciful and Just. Justice demands re-compensation for our actions. Otherwise God could have just said to Adam and Eve, ok, you messed up everything is ok now. This would not be just. It reduces obedience to God to whatever we want.
@dangerman808 Don't listen to this guy. He is entrenched in the authority of his church. He is COMPLIANT. He is OBEDIENT! He believes that salvation is thru the Roman Catholic Church and NOWHERE ELSE. He might not admit it..but it is what he believes. I can't get him to leave me alone, lol. People like him believe We are not worthy. We can't do good. We SUCK Our best is NOT enuff We need forgiveness We are filty rags We need somone to Rescue us We need a Redeemer lol
@DraugarX I think you are biased. Least I accept the Bible as God's inerrant word! I have already answered my believes, he can go look at them. It is a free YT, I can post to any videos I feel like. Why do you keep posting to the same ones I am talking in? :-)
@DraugarX You don't believe the Bible! I believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. Since I was posting in this and the other videos for months before you showed up it is hardly consider that stalking :-). The other video you asked me to come too.
@tommotian Actually I sometimes wonder if it is just YT tagging it because we tend to post lots in a row. I think if we miss the catchpa the first time I think it rates it higher on the spam scale. Cause some of the posts marked as spam just don't fit pattern of someone trying to suppress it. Also I generally will read those tagged as spam anyway.
I now see that your posts are also being "spammed".
This makes no sense at all to me. It is the denial of objective reality to spam posts.
The comment was made, the point was lucid, clear and understandable, and anyone may counter the point. Instead, some very strange person ends up "spamming" the post so others will have to go to the "see all" option to see his posts.
This is INSANITY!
Friends, don't deny objective reality by "spamming" it, be an adult and make a lucid reply.
I was TODAY!!! told by a former, loyal, JW that before he was disfellowshipped he was counselled that:
""a brother or sister caught in a situation where disfellowshipping may be the result can attempt at a display of repentance which may work for them." This has directly to do with God. Example: my own case, when I was asked to accept that the Governing Body is God's representative on earth.".
"Does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...[This] was a body of men and women. ... known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses" (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).
1914, 1925, 1975 [end of world] - FALSE PROPHECY ALERT!!
@tommotian This is interesting, The Church says that all public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle (St John). There can be no new teachings. There can be deeping of understanding, or different ways of presenting the same teaching, but there can never be any new teaching.
If something conflicts with what was previously taught we are the be highly suspect of it, and generally reject it.
I think former JW's like myself would quit fighting the Watchtower if/when the Watchtower Society would stop using former members, "evil apostates", as punching bags in their literature and at their conventions.
But the Watchtower won't ever stop, because they need to create a common enemy to help keep the JW's loyal, and the shunning to instill in them an almost deadly fear of the consequences of leaving.
I think former JW's like myself would quit fighting the Watchtower if/when the Watchtower Society would stop using former members, "evil apostates", as punching bags in their literature and at their conventions.
But the Watchtower won't ever stop, because they need to create a common enemy to help keep the JW's loyal, and the shunning to instill in them an almost deadly fear of the consequences of leaving.
"For this corruptible (body), must put on incorruption, and this mortal (body), must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?'
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
I see that someone has listed kgxxx10's comments as "spam". I had to go to the "see all" option to view his comments.
PLEASE....DO NOT DO THIS!
It is a sin against the search for objective truth to "spam" any reasonable, charitable posts and it is manifestly unfair to not only the person who made the "spammed" comment, but also to the dialogue itself.
Let the dialogue stand on its own and let the chips fall where they may.
"Spamming" posts is not only cowardly, but also STUPID!
Angela parallell scripture to 1 Cor 15:51-53 [v 52 especially]:
"the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMPET call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.", 1 Thess 4:16.
I thought this one is worth mentioning, for the trumpet is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 as well: "For the trumpet will sound ..."
Q. What about the "souls" in Rev 6:9-10, or In Rev 20:4?
A. Since they are in Heavent they are souls with spirit bodies. We are souls, human souls of flesh and blood. Those in Heaven are souls of a different nature.
Strong's Greek: "soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality. ... (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person".
@tommotian One of the problems is that the JW's misunderstand
I Cor 15:50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
If you read this in context, Paul is talking about if we focus on the things of this earth, we will never be able to focus on the things of heaven, therefore we will loose heaven. In other words Paul is not nescissarly speaking literally, more likely figuratively.
Q. How come the dead are unconscious "if Jesus was able to TALK to the dead when he "descended to the dead" before he himself rose?"
A. You are referring to 1 Peter 3:19, 20 which says that after Jesus was "made alive" he preached "to the imprisoned spirits" who were disobedient in the days of Noah".
The JW answer is that the spirits are the fallen angels of God who, when the flood came, returned to the spirit world but cannot come to Heaven - thus imprisoned! and debased.
You believe in the "glorified" body ... the "change" that you believe Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:51.
I agree.
Verse 51: "we will all be changed".
Strong's Greek gives "transformed" as an alternative to "changed". But it's basically the same; a transformation from a body of flesh and blood to one that is not; a spiritual body, the nature of which is such that it can enter Heaven.
From what is perishable [fleshly nature] --> IMperishable [spirit nature]. v 53.
@tommotian I prefer to stick with scripture here: I Cor 2:9. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.
Whatever it is we can think of, God will have something even better planed for us. We can speculate, but why bother? I prefer to be suprised about these things.
I do agree with you regarding 1 Cor 15:51 and "changed". I do believe that it is still called "flesh" from Job 19:26 and Christ in Lk 24:39... I believe this is flesh as Christ had when He entered the room through the locked door (Jn 20:19) and took on the form of the gardener (Jn 20:15). I also believe that it is the dead (the body from the grave) which is raised to life (Jn 5:28-29), which is how I understand there to be a "change".
I am always pleased to see you making contributions to the dialogue. I have to work today, so I will miss Tom's responses until I get back home.
With him being in Sweden, the time difference makes for some interesting "posting tag" games. Once again, Tom will be in bed by the time I get back home to read his responses and possibly make a reply. Ha ha!
It is what it is, but it does discipline one to only reply AFTER thinking longer.
Correction below... not a "resurrection of the original body", I believe in the "glorified" body... the "change" that I believe Paul spoke of (1 Cor 15:51)...
Thank you for responding! I have to be honest.. I’m trying to understand how this is not reincarnation… not that I’m claiming that it is, just that I may not be fully understanding. I absolutely agree with you when you say that not everything that comes from the WTS is erroneous, if it were they would not attract some very honest and intelligent Christians
(as I see they do). I know that you were there when I came to the understanding of the Resurrection of the body and you know that it was through the teachings of the Society that I began to recognize this in the Scriptures. I found this first from Job (19:26), it just ballooned from there… I started seeing it throughout the Old and New Testaments. I didn’t know what to make of it, but my understanding was already that Christ was raised in the flesh.
3 I come to see that He was the ‘firstfruits from the dead’… displaying what our own resurrection will be like as Paul is clear in the last half of 1 Cor. ch. 15. You know my belief in the bodily Resurrection of Christ, I’ve explained my position (primarily based upon, though not limited to, Jn 2:19-21; Lk 24:39; Acts 13:34). I also remember your position clearly, I know that your greatest objection was that this might forfeit the sacrifice by your understanding of Heb 10:10…
while I do understand your objection and find it valid and insightful, I do still disagree and maintain my belief that receiving His body back would not undo the sacrifice.. I feel that John 10:17 is relevant here. I felt that I needed to explain that only to justify my own belief… which is that we will be raised in our own flesh (whatever that may mean [?],
Paul called it “a mystery… we will all be changed” (1 Cor 15:51). One of the points that I feel I can only take as a resurrection of the original body is still Mt 10:28 “fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”… this doesn’t seem to be a hypothetical claim,
I believe that Jesus confirmed this in John 5:28-29 when He said that we will rise from our graves, some to a resurrection of life.. others to a resurrection of damnation.
Also, Acts 2:26 and the Valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1-14).
I believe that we can take Lazarus not as an example of our resurrection, but an example of God’s power over death. Martha didn’t seem to believe, she said that he had been buried for four days, that his body stunk…
7 of course rigor mortus had set in within the first hours, by day four… putrefaction began. Although, I believe raising him from death is no more miraculous than creating him from nothing in the first place =). Like the resurrection of the flesh (given cremation, dismemberment, deterioration, etc.), I don’t claim to be able to comprehend it in the slightest way… I only believe that it’s true. This is really not where I meant to go, though =D… sorry about that!
I am sorry I missed you earlier, I had to work all day and I will have to work tomorrow as well. Perhaps you can answer as to the Watchtower's beliefs concerning the life of the soul in greater depth.
You mentioned earlier that they believe:
"The dead are unconscious until resurrected..So it is a belief in soul-sleep"
How does this make sense if Jesus was able to TALK to the dead when he "descended to the dead" before he himself rose?
What about the "souls" in Rev 6:9-10, or In Rev 20:4?
I hope that you don't mind my butting in! The Society does not teach that Christ spoke during the 3 days in Hades. Of His preaching to "the spirits in prison", since they teach that the all of those deceased remained unconscious until 1918, they refer this to the fallen angels who had affairs w/women... I strongly feel that the context of 1 Peter 3:18:21 implies that they were the humans that did not survive the flood.
It was strange that they would not even go near the bodies of loved ones.
We believe that ALL stages of life and death are Sacred because of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Because Jesus was conceived, conception is Sacred; as a fetus in Mary's womb, Jesus Sanctifies that stage; as an infant, infancy is Sanctified; as a child, childhood is Sanctified; as a youth, youth is Sanctified; as an adult, adulthood is Sanctified; as he died, death itself is made Holy.
When answering your questions I feel a sadness in my heart, for the JW couple who conducted the study with me for me to become a JW were honest, good people. I remember asking them the questions you are asking me now, and they answered them to the best of their ability.
They are dead now, they were devoted.
I believe they are in God's memory.
They died before the Internet era, I thank God for that.
prod actually commented on his failing English being a second language and how well his intentional mis-speaking was quite good.
If you guys can't see thorugh this idiot, you really need help.
Do a little secrete investigating..examine how he plays off himself..
What a loser!
BTW the US Conference of Catholic Bishops came up with a way to lower the number of Bishops and Priest classified as PEDOPHILES..they Redefined the age of Puberty to begin at 10 years old
I really would like the rationale of my grandpa who arranged this... but that can't happen. He had my aunt cremated, which made me wonder how the body was to rise again. I asked the witnesses at one of the studies, they told me that it is a new body. I want to know how this does not interfere with our shared belief that there is no such thing as reincarnation? Do you know how this is reconciled? Do they have a unique definition for 'reincarnation'?
I'm trying to figure out whether this might actually have something to do with the soul vs. the spirit? It seems that my (Catholic) view of a soul is pretty equivalent to the WTS's view of a spirit, though... each is unique to each person.
@fezik82 Yes and no, to them the spirit is the force that animates the body. Sort of like eletricity. To us the Soul is the essence of who we are. The Soul has the ablity to will and make choices. According to the JW's when the spirit leave the body it is gone.
Cremation does not really cause me a problem. God can easily recreate for us physical bodies. Also if the body is not properly preserved, in about 1-2years there aint much left to it.
They believe since your physical body is destroyed [correct of course] when you die, SOMETHING survives which is kept in God's memory [palm]. THIS contains all your memories, your personality, what really makes YOU unique.
This unique YOU is given a new body, be it an earthly one or a spiritual one, and so you know when resurrected who you are ... personlity, memories, all of it.
But, the Bible also says that the soul, nefesch, dies ... this is difficult.
From my description you can see that they do not believe in reincarnation. That is a Hindu concept. At your resurrection, "God gives it [the unique YOU which [who?] was resting in God's palm] a body, just as it has pleased him", 1 Cor 15:38 NWT.
This makes sense to me! The JWs aren't wrong on all counts.
Do you see what I mean, do I make myself understood?
You people out there are told if everyone in a group doesn’t believe EXACTLY the same thing, that’s a lack of unity, but Col 3:14 says LOVE "is a perfect bond of unity", NOT the robotic sameness the WTS is requiring of you!
Christ's yoke is easy and his burden light, Matt 11:30, but being a Jehovah’s Witness is actually a very heavy yoke. Read Romans 14 and John 8:32 thoughtfully about the Christian freedom ALL OF US, including JWs and "interested ones", are supposed to enjoy.
I must caution you. I was a JW for decades. When they speak of "the truth", they without exception refer to the teachings of the WTS REGARDLELL OF them being true or not, and if you do NOT agree on a certain teaching OF THE WTS and say so, you will WITHOUT FAIL be disfellowshipped.
This is very bad because it means:
1) Putting the words of the WTS above Jesus & the apostles,
"a person coming to just learn the truth will hate all other religious practices and will anger at such events like a funeral or a wedding in another religion."
I assume you meant to say, "A person coming to just learn what they BELIEVE to be the truth will hate all other religious practices."
Yes, in that case, it can be said that, "Hell hath no fury like a new convert".
However, people often "hate" what they do not understand, they just "think" they understand it.
@ProdigalSonship everybody has a certain extent of how they understand things. JW's do about the world and other religions and vise verca. most people dont usually accept all religions and tend to favor one to not want to learn about another. yes they could be enemies and that is how some JW's view it and some view company as acceptable, but dont apply cultures or practices while with each other just as a person going to another religious event. its tolerated not life changing.
"the spirituality of a newly baptized or new bible studier can be weak as to be disgusted with the practices of other religions."
This concept of "being disgusted with the practices of other religions" is VERY odd nowadays.
This is not a "reasoned" approach at all, it is quite "cultish" reasoning in fact.
One must FIRST try to understand the "objective" history of each religion by starting at the "genesis" of the religion and the "culture" of its beginnings.
@ProdigalSonship ah i see. well i just tried to get my word out to compare to yours. i just used the example of my auntie and her new found hatred of other religions. i wont try to complain more because the next answer would be favoring one side and not taking in consideration of wat u have said. thank you for enlightening me
"to all people wishing to conflict with me i want to point out that i am a mere boy and still have to research on both sides of a discussion."
This seems to me to be an honest answer and has a welcome tone of sincere humility about it which is very seldom seen. You are welcome here.
An honest, enquiring mind is very healthy. It is one which is open to new ideas and sound reason. There is nothing to fear in conflict when one is reasonable and seeks truth.
to all people wishing to conflict with me i want to point out that i am a mere boy and still have to research on both sides of a discussion. do not think of me as a man coming to know everything, but as a person still fresh in the world and open minded and not favoring one subject over another. i try not be bias as some of ur answers to me might be
@ProdigalSonship u have a general idea of a non attending JW, but why should it be like as the law to attend events.let me provide an illustration. the spirituality of a newly baptized or new bible studier can be weak as to be disgusted with the practices of other religions. a person coming to just learn the truth will hate all other religious practices and will anger at such events like a funeral or a wedding in another religion.as time passes they learn to tolerate such things
"yes u have an opinion, but why is it necessary for them to go? sure u see the loved one and maybe unite the family, but u enforce this attendance like it's a sin to not attend."
I have no wish to force anyone.
As said before, the issue to me is the REASON they choose NOT to go REASONABLE?
I attend these events out of solidarity, love and respect for the individual dignity of family members, not necessarily because I have a "solidarity" with the events themselves.
"u do not get DF'd for going to such events, but practicing sin without repentance. if u go to certain events totally rely or ur decision not someone saying u gotta go"
I have heard that a number of JW's do get disfellowshipped for just going into a church or synagogue. It is my understanding that it is illicit for them to merely cross the threshold of the door of a church.
This sounds somewhat like a superstitious mindset to me.
"It is my understanding that it is illicit for them to merely cross the threshold of the door of a church."
It is not. It depends on why you do so. If you PARTICIPATE in a religious ceremony in the church, that is forbidden.
Let's assume you as a JW are on a vacation. You are in a group of people travelling somewhere. The group out of curiosity wishes to visit [and enter] a church of a denomination foreign to them, just to see what it looks like.
@ProdigalSonship well that is most likely not the cause. if u look into peoples' personal affairs as 1 thess 4:11 not to do then u will know what problems people have. just look into their situations and a lot more things could be covered. u most likely dont know their mentality and thoughts to make them do actions that could get them DF'd. again i say u can look into their personal affairs and know why people get DF'd
Perhaps you think that merely attending a family affair somehow puts your "stamp of approval" of the goings on?
I have attended all manner of meetings, the primary purpose of which I was in essential disagreement.
Just because one attends a family function to celebrate or grieve as a family, does not mean that one is in fact in full agreement with what was said or done.
One may very reasonably attend a family function to show "family solidarity" without fully "participating" in it.
@ProdigalSonship first of all i want to state that different JW's i have come to know have different spiritual levels and consciences and these events at different religious places could either sicken them, anger them, or damage their spirituality. as u know people make personal choices whether to go or not. u do not get DF'd for going to such events, but practicing sin without repentance. if u go to certain events totally rely or ur decision not someone saying u gotta go
@ProdigalSonship they continue to seek their kingdom first then other things. protecting spirituality is a must for them because it's their relationship to god. i have come to know the thinking of us ''worldly people of the nations'' and the JW's perspective. if u try to prove something u need 2 parts of a discussion and it seems that a lot of people dont consider their point of view. i wish to continue this talk to try and enlighten u and vice-versa.
bunch of apostates and i dont see any proof only talk. cmon u guys getting pissed cuz u dont like that they're preaching. i bet all of the itchers and complainers dont even look into wat they teach and only go off of wat other bitchers and complainers say. also wrong translation? i didnt see him explain how it's wrong i bet he's a bitcher too because he dont like the bible, plus he was probably comparing english to greek so no wonder they look different. bitchers
It is very good to see you back, you have been sorely missed here as of late!
I asked those reading the dialogue over a week ago to tell us of any instances they may have experienced when they knew a JW who refused to go to a Wedding, Baptism or Funeral because it happened to occur in a "church" or "synagogue", as opposed to a Kingdom Hall.
I have seen this before when a JW was afraid to attend the Weddings and Funerals of family members!!
It's odd for me, my grandparents refused to go to most of our bigger events. When we did see them, they would pin us down for conversion. My sister (somewhat out of fear of rejection & somewhat out of bitterness, I believe) did not invite them to her wedding, so they made a point by showing up to mine. This was my first event that they attended, it was actually pleasant... but then everything went back to normal =(
@ProdigalSonship did u know that ppl have a conscience and can make choices? no law says that not attending a funeral or wedding at a church or synagogue is illegal. do u know that people make excuses to not go to events while JW's have reasons not to go. thats just like a communist encouraging democracy. u dont mix want u know will conflict like that. religions r not to mix.false religions mix with countries and war each. like catholics fighting catholics and each praying to the same god to win
@dangerman808 What reasons would a JW have not to go to another church? Why would you not go to a wedding if invited or a funeral? Other then prior commitments or family reason what could be a valid reason to not attend?
@kgxxx10 yes u have an opinion, but why is it necessary for them to go? sure u see the loved one and maybe unite the family, but u enforce this attendance like it's a sin to not attend. they believe in a resurrection and that in their new system the ''former things will have passed away'' including death or sickness. mourning or continuously grieving will damage u as a person emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually. it's a personal choice to go or not. the choice s yours.
@dangerman808 Ok... the reason to attend a wedding would be to show your support and approval of the bond. The reason to attend a funeral is to help support those who are left behind. Grieving the lose of someone close is normal and a natural part of the process, to ignore this is wrong. Assisting those who are left behind is also good. So to miss this important events shows a lack of wishing to be involved in the community.
@kgxxx10 then again it is still a personal decision. it's just more in favor of surroundings and atmosphere of people there because they all have same teachings and beliefs. nothing wrong with non JW's to attend JW events. 2004 16 mil people attended the JW memorial and 10mil werent baptized. i attended JW events such as certain conventions and baptisms. u need to understand that people and make choices and not everybody is the same. u linger in ur own beliefs and arent open minded
@kgxxx10 i know that if they accept their teachings that they are very good people. i love the company of them and i like to widen my association to understand people more. i am not a hater of religions or race. i do not favor. i answer according to statements using my knowledge
@kgxxx10 yes. u r partially right. from wat i read and observe u always imply that people have to go and i will always answer that it is a personal decision to go to events JW or non JW. the thing u lack to understand is purpose and motive. think about those to things because that affects action. its not illegal not to go to such events. 100% JW's care about family and u only have conflict with the people who dont go. tell me wat is ur purpose and motive plz
@dangerman808 Of course it is a personal decision, I will not deny this. However I believe that the WTS seriously frowns on attending events at other churches.
@kgxxx10 and that is where u lack the research. i can see u probably are a grown man or woman and have come to know many people and certain JW's. i have responded to other conflicts and said why other JW's accept these events and why others dont. in time as they learn in their religon they learn to accept certain things and tolerate certain things. also we all sin and have fits of anger and some JW's are wet behind the ears and just hate other religions. again as they learn they accept
@dangerman808 This might be true... they have a high turnover rate from what I understand. Also I have read much of their literature and books, and spoken to many over the last few years, so I am not speaking out of ignorance.
"i hope in the future we both come to know the true accurate knowledge of the JW's".
I do hope that you will very soon come to know that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the SOLE source of religious truth, nor do they have the monopoly on Christianity.
Christianity is not an Organization.
Jesus Christ IS! the truth, John 14:6.
It doesn't say the Watchtower Society is.
This is so true that even a child would understand it.
Please read my two posts on being a footstep follower!
@dangerman808 Remember I have read much of thier literature, and talked with many. Spent many weeks about 2 years ago talking with members from my local KH on my porch. Been to the KH. I prefer to speak with active members, rather then those who have left. You don't judge and army by it's deserters, but by it's loyal troops. Many times ex members have axes to grind.
@kgxxx10 they dont. they frown on the religion hosting the event. they are taught not to hate but to pray for enemies and only hate actions. they dont frown upon people just the ''false religion'' as they put it
@fezik82 this is another thing in which i would like to clarify.let me point out that no matter who u r a close loved one's death will cause u to feel sad and or to mourn the dead one. the thing is to not linger in that state of sorrow or sadness and i said earlier it will affect u. there is nothing wrong with mourning if thats wat u want. they provide scriptures or publications to ease the pain, but the spirituality of the person will tell if they are truly whole souled to their god
@dangerman808 The witnesses do not believe in an eternal soul. The dead cease to exist until God choose to perhaps resurrect them if they have been good enough.
@kgxxx10 they believe in not going to hell or heaven, but that the dead r ''sleeping'' in their resurrection. before their Armageddon people who were killed before will be resurrection. only the people destroyed in their armageddon will not be resurrected and i also have an answer explaining why. the wages for sin is death and through death u have been cleared of ur sin is wat they believe
@dangerman808 If you press them they will admit that those who are dead don't exist anymore. They believe in heaven for the anointed class. However there lack of believe in hell always makes me wonder, Our Lord talked more about Hell then he did about Heaven. Seems kind of funny to talk a lot about something that is not real!
@kgxxx10 i honestly dont have a bible for reasons of finding conflicts in different religions and myself to become stumbled on sides of a subject. would u plz enlighten me upon your lord's meaning of hell? all i know from JW literature is that to them hell isnt real. i honestly have come to be stumbeld on this and more research and time is required. the egyptians also believed in a different afterlife and also the vikings and many others and i only heard about sumting like hell 1 time
@dangerman808 Basically we have one choose to make in this life. God or not God. If we choose God we get to spend eternity with him. If we choose not God we get to spend eternity away from him. We are made for God, only in him can we find completness, therefore eternity without God is HELL. Imagine forever knowing the peace, beauty, etc you gave up because you wanted something now. In scripture Hell is talked about as being pain, fire, etc, because this is the only way we can understand it. ...
@dangerman808 cont. We have no concept of what it is like to live as a spirit, and how a spirit feels. We can get some idea from our earthly existance. However heaven and hell are just one moment, that never ends. Even in sleep we get some rest.
You say that many cultures have beleive in an afterlife, yet scripture does not take much in the way to correct this view if it is wrong. It does however continue to hammer in the unity of God, and his Oneness. It hammers in that our actions have ....
@dangerman808 cont conciquences, but only in a few verses if pushed can you come up with the concept that there is nothing after death.
In revelation we see heaven, and we see people so many that they can't be numbered! We don't see just a few, or 144,000 we see billions.
Don't be mislead by the JW's Heaven and Hell are very real. Otherwise Our Lord would not have warned us, Matt 10:28. And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: ....
The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Another fine product from the manuscript of Westcott and Hort. Others include the ASV, NIV, TEV, NASV, NLT and the other 200 or so perversions of God's word that came out in the last 120 years. We can also thank them for developing the school of textual criticism that has plagued our bible colleges resulting in pulpits being filled with men who have been educated out of their faith in the inerrancy of God's word and lie about it to keep a job.
mwilson70201 12 hours ago
@mwilson70201 lol, which do you recommend? Lets take a look at it.
I have yet to see ONE that is correct, accurate and true.
DraugarX 22 minutes ago
lol, How it Works
D: will the little babies that God slaughtered burn in a fiery hell
K: should I waste my time answering when you don't want answers? Tell me whn you want answers
D: OK, I am ready for your answer
K: I already answered
D: ??lol
SSDD
DraugarX 3 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DraugarX Let me try again. Christ ministered to those souls who had gone before he died, and gave them all a chance to either accept Christ or reject him. This happend during the period between his death and resurrection, There are other verses which say that those would be given a chance. One key point, these people did not reject Christ during their lifes!
Basically each of these people had a chance to accept Christ or reject them. Is this that hard to understand?
kgxxx10 3 days ago
wat's hell and how was it made? was it pre-created from god for evil work or once inside they could repent whole souled to suffer. i was taught god forgives and that he/she/it or watever you call em cant be tried for evil. god isnt love, peaceable, or anything in galations 5:22
dangerman808 3 days ago
@dangerman808 Hell is the absence of God. We are all made for God, however we also have the free choice to choose him or not him. God honors that choice. Those in hell are suffering because they know what they have given up. Rather than ask God for mercy, they prefer to curse and hate him.
Besides God being good, he is also Just. Justice demands recompensation for our actions.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@kgxxx10 but how did hell come to happen? out of god's will or was it an evil created just as good is. that's wat i dont know.
dangerman808 2 days ago
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@dangerman808 Hell is God's mercy. It is a place where those who reject him can be out of his presence. CCC 1035 ... Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs
kgxxx10 2 days ago
@dangerman808 there is no hell. By this, I mean a place where you go. Hell is a place spoken of in other religions that the Roman Catholic Church incorporated into Christianity.
This way, if God can send you to a place of eternal pain and suffering for not complying, for not being obedient, for not doing as you are told..the Catholic Church, in its place as God on earth and the Vicar of christ, is afforded, at least, the authority to dish out a little pain and suffering here on earth.
OBEY
DraugarX 2 days ago
@DraugarX This is a lovely concept... no matter what we do in life, God understand that we are fallible and forgives us. A loving God could never send someone to eternal suffering no matter how bad they were. Is this what you believe?
kgxxx10 2 days ago
TICK TICK TICK you got till 10 till the hour
DraugarX 3 days ago
@DraugarX I answered you, sorry you don't like it.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
WOW!, look at all the rational charitable dialogue abot the specified subject matter.
tsk, tsk, tsk..kinda dead without me, ain't it!
my friends..ROFL
DraugarX 3 days ago
@DraugarX Perhaps they are waiting to make sure you are staying away :-). lol
kgxxx10 3 days ago
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@kgxxx10 I can't seem to get rid of you? Every time I turn around, there you are.
Since they have departed riddle me this Batman Hey, all those people God slaughtered..will they burn in hell forever and ever?
They really didn't get their chance to "ACCEPT< TRUST< RECEIVE" Jesus. They kind of got struck down as women and children and even BABIES.
How do you keep the little babies from burning up?
Do you turn the fire down on their end?
Do they still have infant brains?
DraugarX 3 days ago
@DraugarXWhy should I waste my time answering you when you don't want to be answered? You have as much told me so. When you are ready for answers let me know.
Until then I suggest you take a good college level course in biblical studies.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@kgxxx10 OK I am ready
Go ahead and answer that one?
DraugarX 3 days ago
@DraugarX This one is easy:
I Pet 3 [18] Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, [19] In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: [20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@DraugarX Christ ministered to those souls who had gone before he died, and gave them all a chance to either accept Christ or reject him. This happend during the period between his death and resurrection, There are other verses which say that those would be given a chance. One key point, these people did not reject Christ during their lifes!
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@DraugarX Now please forward all repiles to the other video.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@kgxxx10 HUH?
Did you FORGET the question?
I will post it again..I mean it..LAST CHANCE
The Babies that God had slaughtered and cut to pieces before their parents eyes..WILL THEY BURN IN ETERNAL HELL?
Do they still have little infant minds? Will they understand the eternal torment and suffering?
DraugarX 3 days ago
@kgxxx10 you know, all I ever hear from anyone is..you don't want answers
You don't want to hear my answer
You aren't worth answering
Im not wasting my time answering you
You already know the answer
EVERYTHING BUT AN ANSWER
I keep asking and YOU keep stalling and changing the subject
IF you are going to follow me around you need to stop lying. I don't have time for you and your antics.
I don't think much of phonies..and I think you are one..you fiqure it out.
Last Chance
DraugarX 3 days ago
@DraugarX I'm not following you around. I happen to be commenting in these videos long before you came around. So it is you who are following me.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@kgxxx10 I will give you 10 minutes to answer. After that, I will be ignoring you even though you follow me around.
You said they were WICKED and deserving of Gods Punishment..NOW, they get a second chance?
Lets see, they deserved to be slaughtered, including their wives and children, EXCEPT their teenage daughters, they were to by JESUS to keep them for SEX, and the little babies cut into pieces. They even slaughtered their animals.
NOW, they get a second chance?
lol, LIE MUCH?
DraugarX 3 days ago
@ 1:41 Dr. Mantey states "You can't follow theirs because it's biased, and it's deceptive, because they deliberately changed the words in the passage of scripture to make it fit into their doctrine. They distorted the scripture in many passages, scores and scores of passages in the New Testament dealing with the deity of Christ especially." Brilliantly stated and dead on.
MrNinamarie 5 days ago
kgxxx10:
Rich,
You mentioned that my posts have been spammed as well. Frankly, I have no idea if one of my own posts has been spammed.
I don't know if it possible to tell on my end. At any rate, I do see my posts on the main page here and I have not, as yet, seen that they have been spammed on the "see all comments" option.
Perhaps they could have been spammed and I just don't see it on my end.
However, I still think that spamming is very much a SIN AGAINST OBJECTIVE TRUTH itself and DUMB!!
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
Did you know.....A new King James Bible has broken a centuries-old tradition and is following in the footsteps of several Bible translations that restored the Divine Name to its original place in the Old Testament.
Read more: Cleveland Daily Banner - WRIGHT WAY: A New King James Bible
thumpa5252 1 week ago
kgxxx10 Sorry, for a moment I was careless. I mean of course "say it on my wall or on your wall".
OK.
tommotian 1 week ago
kgxxx10 on spamming
YOU ARE ALMOST 100% CERTAIN DEAD WRONG, sorry to say!
My seven posts were visible for several hours. Then they were suddenly spammed. You are saying [if I don't misunderstand you] that there's some glitch in YT responslible for this.
I don't believe that.
No! I was thoroughly spammed by someone.
I am NOT going to take that again.
I exerted mysef - all 7 were spammed.
I refuse to comment here.
If you have something to say to me, say it on my wall or on my wall.
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian Yes I have to agree I am wrong. Prods posts were visible and then got marked as spam. This is sad. I guess the people can't provide any real answers, so they feel they need to silence you. This is very sad.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
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dangerman808:
My friend,
I would like to take on this topic as well as others you mentioned, but right now I have to go to work, so I will give answer when I return. Until then, I do hope that others post their own answers to your questions.
Peace be with you.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
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dangerman808:
Thank you for your comments. You ask here:
"Is it right for religions to side with countries?"
No doubt you ask this because you feel uncomfortable with the possibility that a particular religion may "side" with a particular political movement or party or a civil leader may wish to seek support from religious leaders.
This is a valid question which should be discussed.
The Watchtower's very foundation has much to do with this concern and it has used this as a "banner" of sorts.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship religions side with countries yea? countries war against each other yea? religious ppl are in the army yea? do ppl from same religion pray for the death of a fellow believer? does their god accept siding with armies to kill? i dont know wat to think about this
dangerman808 3 days ago
tommotian i see ur points, but u dont seem to take any deep knowledge of other things. then u can only be right. u develop this type of ''hate'' for the JW's. everybody u may think u r right and also i do that, but u need to reasonable and teachable to fully understand. ask yourself do u accept to hear the teachings of others only to weigh it against something else or do u lean on your understanding and use the deceptive mouth to influence ur comments. many conflicts and i have more answers.
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808
We'll see. At present, No. If you want to question me, Please do so on my wall.
tommotian 1 week ago
i saw in spammed comments that u dont judge an army by its deserters, but by the loyal ones. i see all ur statements and reasonings. yet i need more proof than talking to former JW's. now i have questions. is it right for religions to side with countries e.g. hitler with catholics. can someone come to be reasonable if he/she favors one subject over another. i only see the comments of people only saying that they talked to some former JW's and yet no proof. hell is a concept and open to talk
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 I was the one who said we don't judge and army by the deserters. Scripture also tells us we are to pray for our leaders. I Tim 2 [1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
kgxxx10 1 week ago
dangerman808 Hell is more then a concept, it is a real place/state of being.
Matt 5:22. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Jesus is raising the bar here and the commandment not to kill. By disrespecitng your brother you put yourself into danger.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@dangerman808
Matt 13 [41] The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity. [42] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Jesus is warning us that there will be a judgement, and those who are doing bad things will be punshied for this! Don't ignore this.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 wat about james 1:13. if u know wat i mean
dangerman808 3 days ago
@dangerman808 No I don't know what you mean. God does not temp us, we freely do things that are wrong. James 1:13 is saying that we can't blame God for our mistakes.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@kgxxx10 yes. our actions gets us in trouble. we r accountable to that, but does repentance mean nothing then? or is it only for special ppl who accept ur god.
dangerman808 2 days ago
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@dangerman808 Yes repentance means something. However if you are not truly sorry for your actions, how can there be any repentance? God saves whom he wishes, whomever come to him. However if you come to the wrong God, how can this save you? God is both merciful and Just. Justice demands re-compensation for our actions. Otherwise God could have just said to Adam and Eve, ok, you messed up everything is ok now. This would not be just. It reduces obedience to God to whatever we want.
kgxxx10 2 days ago
DraugarX 1 day ago
@DraugarX I think you are biased. Least I accept the Bible as God's inerrant word! I have already answered my believes, he can go look at them. It is a free YT, I can post to any videos I feel like. Why do you keep posting to the same ones I am talking in? :-)
kgxxx10 1 day ago
@dangerman808 don't believe a word he says.
He has a truth issue..he dosen't believe the bible
HE BELIEVES HIS CHURCH
He is right about it being "a free youtube"
If it wasn't, I would have him arrested for STALKING
DraugarX 1 day ago
@DraugarX You don't believe the Bible! I believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. Since I was posting in this and the other videos for months before you showed up it is hardly consider that stalking :-). The other video you asked me to come too.
kgxxx10 1 day ago
Goodbye.
tommotian 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
In just the last few hours no less than 7 of my comments were spammed, ALL of them at the same time.
That is some heavy censorship!
They will remain invisible unless the visitor knows the trick to make them visible: To hit the "View all Comments" button.
What's the point of coming here knowing that you are to be silenced?
NONE!
But there are other, frequently visited sites, so you will not get to me that easily.
Slimeball!
I do not regret a single line in my previous post.
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian Actually I sometimes wonder if it is just YT tagging it because we tend to post lots in a row. I think if we miss the catchpa the first time I think it rates it higher on the spam scale. Cause some of the posts marked as spam just don't fit pattern of someone trying to suppress it. Also I generally will read those tagged as spam anyway.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10
I hit the "show all" and generally read the spammed comments first. In a way, this person is doing a service to those that they are spamming =D
fezik82 1 week ago
To the [JW? "interested one"?] out there active in the spamming business.
You slimy [Watchtowerist?] creep, this one is for you:
It is not possible to remain a poster here because some imbecill person[s] is/are spamming not only my comments but those of others as well.
Whoever is/are doing it, You are a sick devil and one day you will pay for this.
When that day comes, I thank God I'm not in your shoes!
This is where it all ends because the site is not moderated.
tommotian 1 week ago
be blessed
muzzledchristians1 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
tommotian:
Tom,
I now see that your posts are also being "spammed".
This makes no sense at all to me. It is the denial of objective reality to spam posts.
The comment was made, the point was lucid, clear and understandable, and anyone may counter the point. Instead, some very strange person ends up "spamming" the post so others will have to go to the "see all" option to see his posts.
This is INSANITY!
Friends, don't deny objective reality by "spamming" it, be an adult and make a lucid reply.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
Pick your choice!
tommotian 1 week ago
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I was TODAY!!! told by a former, loyal, JW that before he was disfellowshipped he was counselled that:
""a brother or sister caught in a situation where disfellowshipping may be the result can attempt at a display of repentance which may work for them." This has directly to do with God. Example: my own case, when I was asked to accept that the Governing Body is God's representative on earth.".
He refused. They disfellowshipped him.
WHO are the JWs following?
1) The Gov. Body.
2) Jesus.
tommotian 1 week ago
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dagerman808 being a follower of who? [3]
The WTS claims to have prophets:
"Does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...[This] was a body of men and women. ... known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses" (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).
1914, 1925, 1975 [end of world] - FALSE PROPHECY ALERT!!
tommotian 1 week ago
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@tommotian This is interesting, The Church says that all public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle (St John). There can be no new teachings. There can be deeping of understanding, or different ways of presenting the same teaching, but there can never be any new teaching.
If something conflicts with what was previously taught we are the be highly suspect of it, and generally reject it.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
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Whoever you are, stop spamming my posts! Or anyone else's for that matter.
If you have something to say, say it.
Challenge me please!
What are you afraid of?
Reposting below!
tommotian 1 week ago
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dangerman808 being a follower of who? [2]
I think former JW's like myself would quit fighting the Watchtower if/when the Watchtower Society would stop using former members, "evil apostates", as punching bags in their literature and at their conventions.
But the Watchtower won't ever stop, because they need to create a common enemy to help keep the JW's loyal, and the shunning to instill in them an almost deadly fear of the consequences of leaving.
There is no middle-ground.
tommotian 1 week ago
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tommotian 1 week ago
a christian is a footstep follower of christ is wat i was told. is it true? plz reply.
dangerman808 1 week ago
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@dangerman808 being a follower of who? [1]
Here's the reply you asked for.
Yes, the Christian is a footstep follower of Christ.
The problem now is, They want you to be a footstep follower of an Organization to the point of denying your conscience.
They want you to acknowledge their Governing Body within this Organization as the only source of correct interpretation of Scripture.
That is how I was taught, and is still being told on YouTube, so indeed do I know.
Here I am warning you.
tommotian 1 week ago
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@dangerman808 being a follower of who? [2]
I think former JW's like myself would quit fighting the Watchtower if/when the Watchtower Society would stop using former members, "evil apostates", as punching bags in their literature and at their conventions.
But the Watchtower won't ever stop, because they need to create a common enemy to help keep the JW's loyal, and the shunning to instill in them an almost deadly fear of the consequences of leaving.
There is no middle-ground.
tommotian 1 week ago
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@dangerman808 Christ gave us the answer to this.
Luke 9:23. And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
When you are ready to step on the cross with Christ then you are a follower.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
Pats and Giants go to the SUPER BOWL!!
Last time they went their together was 2008 and the Giants won the Pats back then. Hmmm....it's a win/win for me! Ha ha!
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
"For this corruptible (body), must put on incorruption, and this mortal (body), must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?'
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Indeed, THANKS BE!!
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
tommotian,
Tom, thank you for your comments.
Well, I'd say you do a pretty good job of representing the Watchtower's opinions fairly and objectively when asked to do so! :-)
No need to "report hours" to your local Kingdom Hall though.
Just tell them you "gave at the office". That's a diplomatic thing to say.
We appreciate your efforts to be fair on the Watchtower's behalf.
All comments which seek to honestly inform so others can gain a genuine perspective on the WTS are very much welcome here.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
My friends,
I see that someone has listed kgxxx10's comments as "spam". I had to go to the "see all" option to view his comments.
PLEASE....DO NOT DO THIS!
It is a sin against the search for objective truth to "spam" any reasonable, charitable posts and it is manifestly unfair to not only the person who made the "spammed" comment, but also to the dialogue itself.
Let the dialogue stand on its own and let the chips fall where they may.
"Spamming" posts is not only cowardly, but also STUPID!
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
Angela and Jim
OK, enough for today. I'll be busy tomorrow, the day after that I'll be back.
Besides, you must be given an opportunity to respond to answers submitted to you.
I could say more about it.
The two of you are making me preach AS A JW would!! regardless of be the answers right or wrong.
But you are asking me for the JW point of view, and why, so that is what I'm doing.
Maybe I ought to report hours to my local Kingdom Hall now? - Just kiddin' !
:=))
God Bless!
tommotian 1 week ago
Angela parallell scripture to 1 Cor 15:51-53 [v 52 especially]:
"the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMPET call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.", 1 Thess 4:16.
I thought this one is worth mentioning, for the trumpet is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 as well: "For the trumpet will sound ..."
tommotian 1 week ago
ProdigalSonship
Q. What about the "souls" in Rev 6:9-10, or In Rev 20:4?
A. Since they are in Heavent they are souls with spirit bodies. We are souls, human souls of flesh and blood. Those in Heaven are souls of a different nature.
Strong's Greek: "soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality. ... (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person".
tommotian 1 week ago
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@tommotian One of the problems is that the JW's misunderstand
I Cor 15:50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
If you read this in context, Paul is talking about if we focus on the things of this earth, we will never be able to focus on the things of heaven, therefore we will loose heaven. In other words Paul is not nescissarly speaking literally, more likely figuratively.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
ProdigalSonship
Q. How come the dead are unconscious "if Jesus was able to TALK to the dead when he "descended to the dead" before he himself rose?"
A. You are referring to 1 Peter 3:19, 20 which says that after Jesus was "made alive" he preached "to the imprisoned spirits" who were disobedient in the days of Noah".
The JW answer is that the spirits are the fallen angels of God who, when the flood came, returned to the spirit world but cannot come to Heaven - thus imprisoned! and debased.
tommotian 1 week ago
Thee people try and separate Christ from being the One True God in the flesh right? Well if thats the case then this book wants burning......
1988TheHitman 1 week ago
Angela
You believe in the "glorified" body ... the "change" that you believe Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:51.
I agree.
Verse 51: "we will all be changed".
Strong's Greek gives "transformed" as an alternative to "changed". But it's basically the same; a transformation from a body of flesh and blood to one that is not; a spiritual body, the nature of which is such that it can enter Heaven.
From what is perishable [fleshly nature] --> IMperishable [spirit nature]. v 53.
That's my understanding!
tommotian 1 week ago
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@tommotian I prefer to stick with scripture here: I Cor 2:9. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.
Whatever it is we can think of, God will have something even better planed for us. We can speculate, but why bother? I prefer to be suprised about these things.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@tommotian
I do agree with you regarding 1 Cor 15:51 and "changed". I do believe that it is still called "flesh" from Job 19:26 and Christ in Lk 24:39... I believe this is flesh as Christ had when He entered the room through the locked door (Jn 20:19) and took on the form of the gardener (Jn 20:15). I also believe that it is the dead (the body from the grave) which is raised to life (Jn 5:28-29), which is how I understand there to be a "change".
Your last post made me laugh =)
fezik82 1 week ago
fezik82:
Angela,
I don't mind at all when you "butt in". LOL
I am always pleased to see you making contributions to the dialogue. I have to work today, so I will miss Tom's responses until I get back home.
With him being in Sweden, the time difference makes for some interesting "posting tag" games. Once again, Tom will be in bed by the time I get back home to read his responses and possibly make a reply. Ha ha!
It is what it is, but it does discipline one to only reply AFTER thinking longer.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
Correction below... not a "resurrection of the original body", I believe in the "glorified" body... the "change" that I believe Paul spoke of (1 Cor 15:51)...
fezik82 1 week ago
1
Tom,
Thank you for responding! I have to be honest.. I’m trying to understand how this is not reincarnation… not that I’m claiming that it is, just that I may not be fully understanding. I absolutely agree with you when you say that not everything that comes from the WTS is erroneous, if it were they would not attract some very honest and intelligent Christians
fezik82 1 week ago
2
(as I see they do). I know that you were there when I came to the understanding of the Resurrection of the body and you know that it was through the teachings of the Society that I began to recognize this in the Scriptures. I found this first from Job (19:26), it just ballooned from there… I started seeing it throughout the Old and New Testaments. I didn’t know what to make of it, but my understanding was already that Christ was raised in the flesh.
fezik82 1 week ago
3 I come to see that He was the ‘firstfruits from the dead’… displaying what our own resurrection will be like as Paul is clear in the last half of 1 Cor. ch. 15. You know my belief in the bodily Resurrection of Christ, I’ve explained my position (primarily based upon, though not limited to, Jn 2:19-21; Lk 24:39; Acts 13:34). I also remember your position clearly, I know that your greatest objection was that this might forfeit the sacrifice by your understanding of Heb 10:10…
fezik82 1 week ago
4
while I do understand your objection and find it valid and insightful, I do still disagree and maintain my belief that receiving His body back would not undo the sacrifice.. I feel that John 10:17 is relevant here. I felt that I needed to explain that only to justify my own belief… which is that we will be raised in our own flesh (whatever that may mean [?],
fezik82 1 week ago
5
Paul called it “a mystery… we will all be changed” (1 Cor 15:51). One of the points that I feel I can only take as a resurrection of the original body is still Mt 10:28 “fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”… this doesn’t seem to be a hypothetical claim,
fezik82 1 week ago
6
I believe that Jesus confirmed this in John 5:28-29 when He said that we will rise from our graves, some to a resurrection of life.. others to a resurrection of damnation.
Also, Acts 2:26 and the Valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1-14).
I believe that we can take Lazarus not as an example of our resurrection, but an example of God’s power over death. Martha didn’t seem to believe, she said that he had been buried for four days, that his body stunk…
fezik82 1 week ago
7 of course rigor mortus had set in within the first hours, by day four… putrefaction began. Although, I believe raising him from death is no more miraculous than creating him from nothing in the first place =). Like the resurrection of the flesh (given cremation, dismemberment, deterioration, etc.), I don’t claim to be able to comprehend it in the slightest way… I only believe that it’s true. This is really not where I meant to go, though =D… sorry about that!
fezik82 1 week ago
Tom,
I am sorry I missed you earlier, I had to work all day and I will have to work tomorrow as well. Perhaps you can answer as to the Watchtower's beliefs concerning the life of the soul in greater depth.
You mentioned earlier that they believe:
"The dead are unconscious until resurrected..So it is a belief in soul-sleep"
How does this make sense if Jesus was able to TALK to the dead when he "descended to the dead" before he himself rose?
What about the "souls" in Rev 6:9-10, or In Rev 20:4?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
I hope that you don't mind my butting in! The Society does not teach that Christ spoke during the 3 days in Hades. Of His preaching to "the spirits in prison", since they teach that the all of those deceased remained unconscious until 1918, they refer this to the fallen angels who had affairs w/women... I strongly feel that the context of 1 Peter 3:18:21 implies that they were the humans that did not survive the flood.
fezik82 1 week ago
tommotian:
Tom thanks for the info.
It was strange that they would not even go near the bodies of loved ones.
We believe that ALL stages of life and death are Sacred because of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Because Jesus was conceived, conception is Sacred; as a fetus in Mary's womb, Jesus Sanctifies that stage; as an infant, infancy is Sanctified; as a child, childhood is Sanctified; as a youth, youth is Sanctified; as an adult, adulthood is Sanctified; as he died, death itself is made Holy.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
Angela and Jim.
Questions answered. It's late in my country and I'm going to bed. See you later.
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian
Thank you, I'm leaving... I'll read more thoroughly and respond tonight.
fezik82 1 week ago
ProdigalSonship
When answering your questions I feel a sadness in my heart, for the JW couple who conducted the study with me for me to become a JW were honest, good people. I remember asking them the questions you are asking me now, and they answered them to the best of their ability.
They are dead now, they were devoted.
I believe they are in God's memory.
They died before the Internet era, I thank God for that.
It is such a very sad story.
Some of what I was taught holds water.
tommotian 1 week ago
prod actually commented on his failing English being a second language and how well his intentional mis-speaking was quite good.
If you guys can't see thorugh this idiot, you really need help.
Do a little secrete investigating..examine how he plays off himself..
What a loser!
BTW the US Conference of Catholic Bishops came up with a way to lower the number of Bishops and Priest classified as PEDOPHILES..they Redefined the age of Puberty to begin at 10 years old
BTW,
HolyRollerSpirit1 1 week ago
I saw where Draugar informed you idiots that prod and tom are actually prodtom, LMAO
He is soooo right.
I went back and looked and there is no doubt. What a clown. If you will, notice the same exact sentence structure and the same exact vernacular.
Also, upon this being said, tomo immediately began speaking like a caveman, omitting pronouns and articles..this didn't last long.
Also, the immediate asking each other for instruction.
BUSTED! ROFLMAO
SOOO TRANSPARANT
Draugar ROCKS
HolyRollerSpirit1 1 week ago
tommortian;
Tom, it is very good to see you back again. I know you have been very busy and I thank you for your comments.
I am curious about what the Watchtower teaches concerning a dead human corpus, or death in general for that matter.
Is it their belief that death is 'evil" and that a dead body is something to be avoided?
I have had a couple of related experiences with JW's in the past. This way of looking at death is VERY odd to a Christian.
It is obviously against historical Christianity.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
This is something I never encountered.
About your experience ... it seems me these JWs are not representative of their religion.
Not recognized by me as a problem.
Many JWs have their deceased loved ones cremated.
I consulted the book "Shepherd the flock of God", also called "The Elders Secret Manual", 2010 version,
and:
NOTHING about a dead human corpus being an 'evil' thing is being said.
No special rules for funerals are mentioned - I attended different ones.
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian Oh, look no grammar errors that seem to come and go.
CORPUS? amazing that two different individuals would use that word.
If you correct someone and disagree with someone and that someone is yourself in cognito..the masses will be thrown off..BUT NOT ALL.
Upon diligent investigation, the gig is up LMAO
HolyRollerSpirit1 1 week ago
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@HolyRollerSpirit1 Corpus is latin for body. This is what it is called. Educate yourself!
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@tommotian
I really would like the rationale of my grandpa who arranged this... but that can't happen. He had my aunt cremated, which made me wonder how the body was to rise again. I asked the witnesses at one of the studies, they told me that it is a new body. I want to know how this does not interfere with our shared belief that there is no such thing as reincarnation? Do you know how this is reconciled? Do they have a unique definition for 'reincarnation'?
fezik82 1 week ago
I'm trying to figure out whether this might actually have something to do with the soul vs. the spirit? It seems that my (Catholic) view of a soul is pretty equivalent to the WTS's view of a spirit, though... each is unique to each person.
fezik82 1 week ago
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@fezik82 Yes and no, to them the spirit is the force that animates the body. Sort of like eletricity. To us the Soul is the essence of who we are. The Soul has the ablity to will and make choices. According to the JW's when the spirit leave the body it is gone.
Cremation does not really cause me a problem. God can easily recreate for us physical bodies. Also if the body is not properly preserved, in about 1-2years there aint much left to it.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@fezik82 spirit [1]
To the JWs, the spirit [ruach in Hebrew] is that which makes the person alive; THE SPARK OF LIFE.
"When their spirit [life; mind] departs, they [their dead bodies] return to the ground" Ps 146:4.
The person is at the resurrection given a body according to God's choosing and and is brought to life by being given back the spirit [force of life].
The JWs ALSO teach that the ones who are given a heavenly life are immediately resurrected from death and given spritit bodies.
tommotian 1 week ago
@fezik82 spirit [2]
OK, so I should say that Yes, SOME of what the JWs believe about it is pretty similar to that of your Catholic views on the subject.
Then there are parts which are NOT.
It is very complex; but they firmly believe that Jesus IS the resurrection and the life, John 11:25.
It must in all earnest be said that there are good sides to the beliefs of the JWs.
The problem rests very much with the totalitarian leadership.
The good JWs are slaves and the WTS is the slave-owner.
tommotian 1 week ago
@fezik82 resurrection [1]
They believe since your physical body is destroyed [correct of course] when you die, SOMETHING survives which is kept in God's memory [palm]. THIS contains all your memories, your personality, what really makes YOU unique.
This unique YOU is given a new body, be it an earthly one or a spiritual one, and so you know when resurrected who you are ... personlity, memories, all of it.
But, the Bible also says that the soul, nefesch, dies ... this is difficult.
tommotian 1 week ago
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tommotian 1 week ago
@fezik82 resurrection [2]
From my description you can see that they do not believe in reincarnation. That is a Hindu concept. At your resurrection, "God gives it [the unique YOU which [who?] was resting in God's palm] a body, just as it has pleased him", 1 Cor 15:38 NWT.
This makes sense to me! The JWs aren't wrong on all counts.
Do you see what I mean, do I make myself understood?
tommotian 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
The JW opinion about what death is:
The dead are unconscious until resurrected, Eccl 9:5,10; John 11:11-14.
So it is a belief in soul-sleep, but I know some JWs think differently about this.
They think some are resurrected to a life on Paradise Earth, Matt 5:5 [clearly a misunderstanding what Jesus is saying here].
And that only the 144 000 are resurrected to life in Heaven as co-rulers with Jesus, Rev 7:4-8; Rev 14:1-5.
This is but a summary for you.
Hope this helps!
tommotian 1 week ago
You people out there are told if everyone in a group doesn’t believe EXACTLY the same thing, that’s a lack of unity, but Col 3:14 says LOVE "is a perfect bond of unity", NOT the robotic sameness the WTS is requiring of you!
Christ's yoke is easy and his burden light, Matt 11:30, but being a Jehovah’s Witness is actually a very heavy yoke. Read Romans 14 and John 8:32 thoughtfully about the Christian freedom ALL OF US, including JWs and "interested ones", are supposed to enjoy.
Am I right?
tommotian 1 week ago
Sorry, I mean "REGARDLESS" - my misspelling there.
tommotian 1 week ago
dangerman808
Dear fellow,
I must caution you. I was a JW for decades. When they speak of "the truth", they without exception refer to the teachings of the WTS REGARDLELL OF them being true or not, and if you do NOT agree on a certain teaching OF THE WTS and say so, you will WITHOUT FAIL be disfellowshipped.
This is very bad because it means:
1) Putting the words of the WTS above Jesus & the apostles,
2) Ignoring that Jeus IS! "the truth", JOHN 14:6.
It dosn't say the WTS is! NO! NO!
tommotian 1 week ago
121 people are JW....... no lie either
adzwild 1 week ago
dangerman808"
You say here:
"a person coming to just learn the truth will hate all other religious practices and will anger at such events like a funeral or a wedding in another religion."
I assume you meant to say, "A person coming to just learn what they BELIEVE to be the truth will hate all other religious practices."
Yes, in that case, it can be said that, "Hell hath no fury like a new convert".
However, people often "hate" what they do not understand, they just "think" they understand it.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship everybody has a certain extent of how they understand things. JW's do about the world and other religions and vise verca. most people dont usually accept all religions and tend to favor one to not want to learn about another. yes they could be enemies and that is how some JW's view it and some view company as acceptable, but dont apply cultures or practices while with each other just as a person going to another religious event. its tolerated not life changing.
dangerman808 1 week ago
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dangerman808:
Friend, you say here:
"the spirituality of a newly baptized or new bible studier can be weak as to be disgusted with the practices of other religions."
This concept of "being disgusted with the practices of other religions" is VERY odd nowadays.
This is not a "reasoned" approach at all, it is quite "cultish" reasoning in fact.
One must FIRST try to understand the "objective" history of each religion by starting at the "genesis" of the religion and the "culture" of its beginnings.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship ah i see. well i just tried to get my word out to compare to yours. i just used the example of my auntie and her new found hatred of other religions. i wont try to complain more because the next answer would be favoring one side and not taking in consideration of wat u have said. thank you for enlightening me
dangerman808 1 week ago
dangerman808:
My friend,
You say here:
"to all people wishing to conflict with me i want to point out that i am a mere boy and still have to research on both sides of a discussion."
This seems to me to be an honest answer and has a welcome tone of sincere humility about it which is very seldom seen. You are welcome here.
An honest, enquiring mind is very healthy. It is one which is open to new ideas and sound reason. There is nothing to fear in conflict when one is reasonable and seeks truth.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
to all people wishing to conflict with me i want to point out that i am a mere boy and still have to research on both sides of a discussion. do not think of me as a man coming to know everything, but as a person still fresh in the world and open minded and not favoring one subject over another. i try not be bias as some of ur answers to me might be
dangerman808 1 week ago
fezik82:
Angela,
I remember two instances when a family member went to just a funeral home, not the church, to attend the "wake" of a deceased family member.
In fact, at the formal "service" part of the wake itself, they left the room and this was being held in the funeral home! How very odd.
When looking at the open casket and the corpus contained inside, one JW was heard as saying it was "evil" and refused even to go near it.
These were the bodies of her own father and favorite aunt!
Bizarre!
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
dangerman808:
Friend,
I assume when you say "they" and "them", that you mean JW's.
You say here:
"they continue to seek their kingdom first then other things. protecting spirituality is a must for them because it's their relationship to god."
This is a curious statement. Cannot the "spirituality" of a JW be "protected" by God himself even if the JW happens to attend a family event?
Is there a problem with the "spirituality" of a JW that it cannot withstand merely attending a family event?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship u have a general idea of a non attending JW, but why should it be like as the law to attend events.let me provide an illustration. the spirituality of a newly baptized or new bible studier can be weak as to be disgusted with the practices of other religions. a person coming to just learn the truth will hate all other religious practices and will anger at such events like a funeral or a wedding in another religion.as time passes they learn to tolerate such things
dangerman808 1 week ago
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dangerman808:
You say here:
"yes u have an opinion, but why is it necessary for them to go? sure u see the loved one and maybe unite the family, but u enforce this attendance like it's a sin to not attend."
I have no wish to force anyone.
As said before, the issue to me is the REASON they choose NOT to go REASONABLE?
I attend these events out of solidarity, love and respect for the individual dignity of family members, not necessarily because I have a "solidarity" with the events themselves.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
dangerman808:
Friend,
You say here:
"u do not get DF'd for going to such events, but practicing sin without repentance. if u go to certain events totally rely or ur decision not someone saying u gotta go"
I have heard that a number of JW's do get disfellowshipped for just going into a church or synagogue. It is my understanding that it is illicit for them to merely cross the threshold of the door of a church.
This sounds somewhat like a superstitious mindset to me.
Is my perspective wrong here?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
"It is my understanding that it is illicit for them to merely cross the threshold of the door of a church."
It is not. It depends on why you do so. If you PARTICIPATE in a religious ceremony in the church, that is forbidden.
Let's assume you as a JW are on a vacation. You are in a group of people travelling somewhere. The group out of curiosity wishes to visit [and enter] a church of a denomination foreign to them, just to see what it looks like.
As a JW you could do that.
tommotian 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship well that is most likely not the cause. if u look into peoples' personal affairs as 1 thess 4:11 not to do then u will know what problems people have. just look into their situations and a lot more things could be covered. u most likely dont know their mentality and thoughts to make them do actions that could get them DF'd. again i say u can look into their personal affairs and know why people get DF'd
dangerman808 1 week ago
dangerman808
May I ask you, just to understand your answers better: Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian im not a JW. they bother me too much. i simply take in their knowledge just to undetstand them and not to apply to myself
dangerman808 1 week ago
dangerman808:
Perhaps you think that merely attending a family affair somehow puts your "stamp of approval" of the goings on?
I have attended all manner of meetings, the primary purpose of which I was in essential disagreement.
Just because one attends a family function to celebrate or grieve as a family, does not mean that one is in fact in full agreement with what was said or done.
One may very reasonably attend a family function to show "family solidarity" without fully "participating" in it.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
dangerman808:
My friend,
Thank you for your comments.
You say here:
"people make excuses to not go to events while JW's have reasons not to go."
It is perfectly fine for people to have reasons for not attending events. I myself have reasons for not attending events.
But, is the "reason" for not attending a family event or celebration "reasonable"?
I am curious, are you as a JW afraid to attend a family event out of superstition or fear of "catching" something or fear of being dis-fellowshipped?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship first of all i want to state that different JW's i have come to know have different spiritual levels and consciences and these events at different religious places could either sicken them, anger them, or damage their spirituality. as u know people make personal choices whether to go or not. u do not get DF'd for going to such events, but practicing sin without repentance. if u go to certain events totally rely or ur decision not someone saying u gotta go
dangerman808 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship they continue to seek their kingdom first then other things. protecting spirituality is a must for them because it's their relationship to god. i have come to know the thinking of us ''worldly people of the nations'' and the JW's perspective. if u try to prove something u need 2 parts of a discussion and it seems that a lot of people dont consider their point of view. i wish to continue this talk to try and enlighten u and vice-versa.
dangerman808 1 week ago
bunch of apostates and i dont see any proof only talk. cmon u guys getting pissed cuz u dont like that they're preaching. i bet all of the itchers and complainers dont even look into wat they teach and only go off of wat other bitchers and complainers say. also wrong translation? i didnt see him explain how it's wrong i bet he's a bitcher too because he dont like the bible, plus he was probably comparing english to greek so no wonder they look different. bitchers
dangerman808 1 week ago
fexik82:
Angela,
It is very good to see you back, you have been sorely missed here as of late!
I asked those reading the dialogue over a week ago to tell us of any instances they may have experienced when they knew a JW who refused to go to a Wedding, Baptism or Funeral because it happened to occur in a "church" or "synagogue", as opposed to a Kingdom Hall.
I have seen this before when a JW was afraid to attend the Weddings and Funerals of family members!!
Have this happened to you also Angela?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
Thanks! I've missed you guys, as well!
It's odd for me, my grandparents refused to go to most of our bigger events. When we did see them, they would pin us down for conversion. My sister (somewhat out of fear of rejection & somewhat out of bitterness, I believe) did not invite them to her wedding, so they made a point by showing up to mine. This was my first event that they attended, it was actually pleasant... but then everything went back to normal =(
fezik82 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
I maybe should have pointed out, too, that my sister did have a very small wedding. There were maybe 15-20 people from each side (friends included).
fezik82 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship did u know that ppl have a conscience and can make choices? no law says that not attending a funeral or wedding at a church or synagogue is illegal. do u know that people make excuses to not go to events while JW's have reasons not to go. thats just like a communist encouraging democracy. u dont mix want u know will conflict like that. religions r not to mix.false religions mix with countries and war each. like catholics fighting catholics and each praying to the same god to win
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 What reasons would a JW have not to go to another church? Why would you not go to a wedding if invited or a funeral? Other then prior commitments or family reason what could be a valid reason to not attend?
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 yes u have an opinion, but why is it necessary for them to go? sure u see the loved one and maybe unite the family, but u enforce this attendance like it's a sin to not attend. they believe in a resurrection and that in their new system the ''former things will have passed away'' including death or sickness. mourning or continuously grieving will damage u as a person emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually. it's a personal choice to go or not. the choice s yours.
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 Ok... the reason to attend a wedding would be to show your support and approval of the bond. The reason to attend a funeral is to help support those who are left behind. Grieving the lose of someone close is normal and a natural part of the process, to ignore this is wrong. Assisting those who are left behind is also good. So to miss this important events shows a lack of wishing to be involved in the community.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@dangerman808 cont... From what I gather, they have no problem attending these same events if they are held at a KH? Does this sound right?
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 then again it is still a personal decision. it's just more in favor of surroundings and atmosphere of people there because they all have same teachings and beliefs. nothing wrong with non JW's to attend JW events. 2004 16 mil people attended the JW memorial and 10mil werent baptized. i attended JW events such as certain conventions and baptisms. u need to understand that people and make choices and not everybody is the same. u linger in ur own beliefs and arent open minded
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 I've been to a KH event, and talked to them a lot. In general most are good people seeking God in the best way they know how.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 i know that if they accept their teachings that they are very good people. i love the company of them and i like to widen my association to understand people more. i am not a hater of religions or race. i do not favor. i answer according to statements using my knowledge
dangerman808 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 yes. u r partially right. from wat i read and observe u always imply that people have to go and i will always answer that it is a personal decision to go to events JW or non JW. the thing u lack to understand is purpose and motive. think about those to things because that affects action. its not illegal not to go to such events. 100% JW's care about family and u only have conflict with the people who dont go. tell me wat is ur purpose and motive plz
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 Of course it is a personal decision, I will not deny this. However I believe that the WTS seriously frowns on attending events at other churches.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 and that is where u lack the research. i can see u probably are a grown man or woman and have come to know many people and certain JW's. i have responded to other conflicts and said why other JW's accept these events and why others dont. in time as they learn in their religon they learn to accept certain things and tolerate certain things. also we all sin and have fits of anger and some JW's are wet behind the ears and just hate other religions. again as they learn they accept
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 This might be true... they have a high turnover rate from what I understand. Also I have read much of their literature and books, and spoken to many over the last few years, so I am not speaking out of ignorance.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 srry if i have not gotten ur point of the discussion, but i hope in the future we both come to know the true accurate knowledge of the JW's
dangerman808 1 week ago
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@dangerman808
"i hope in the future we both come to know the true accurate knowledge of the JW's".
I do hope that you will very soon come to know that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the SOLE source of religious truth, nor do they have the monopoly on Christianity.
Christianity is not an Organization.
Jesus Christ IS! the truth, John 14:6.
It doesn't say the Watchtower Society is.
This is so true that even a child would understand it.
Please read my two posts on being a footstep follower!
tommotian 1 week ago
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@dangerman808 Remember I have read much of thier literature, and talked with many. Spent many weeks about 2 years ago talking with members from my local KH on my porch. Been to the KH. I prefer to speak with active members, rather then those who have left. You don't judge and army by it's deserters, but by it's loyal troops. Many times ex members have axes to grind.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 they dont. they frown on the religion hosting the event. they are taught not to hate but to pray for enemies and only hate actions. they dont frown upon people just the ''false religion'' as they put it
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808
"in their new system the ''former things will have passed away'' including death or sickness"
That would be a great response if not for the fact that Jw's do still hold funerals for deceased witnesses. I was at my aunt's.
fezik82 1 week ago
I'm sorry, I believe that the witnesses call these "memorial services"?
fezik82 1 week ago
@fezik82 they call it watever they want.
dangerman808 1 week ago
@fezik82
You are correct. A funeral is in the JW arrangement things mostly called a "memorial service".
tommotian 1 week ago
@fezik82 this is another thing in which i would like to clarify.let me point out that no matter who u r a close loved one's death will cause u to feel sad and or to mourn the dead one. the thing is to not linger in that state of sorrow or sadness and i said earlier it will affect u. there is nothing wrong with mourning if thats wat u want. they provide scriptures or publications to ease the pain, but the spirituality of the person will tell if they are truly whole souled to their god
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 The witnesses do not believe in an eternal soul. The dead cease to exist until God choose to perhaps resurrect them if they have been good enough.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 they believe in not going to hell or heaven, but that the dead r ''sleeping'' in their resurrection. before their Armageddon people who were killed before will be resurrection. only the people destroyed in their armageddon will not be resurrected and i also have an answer explaining why. the wages for sin is death and through death u have been cleared of ur sin is wat they believe
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 If you press them they will admit that those who are dead don't exist anymore. They believe in heaven for the anointed class. However there lack of believe in hell always makes me wonder, Our Lord talked more about Hell then he did about Heaven. Seems kind of funny to talk a lot about something that is not real!
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 i honestly dont have a bible for reasons of finding conflicts in different religions and myself to become stumbled on sides of a subject. would u plz enlighten me upon your lord's meaning of hell? all i know from JW literature is that to them hell isnt real. i honestly have come to be stumbeld on this and more research and time is required. the egyptians also believed in a different afterlife and also the vikings and many others and i only heard about sumting like hell 1 time
dangerman808 1 week ago
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@dangerman808 Basically we have one choose to make in this life. God or not God. If we choose God we get to spend eternity with him. If we choose not God we get to spend eternity away from him. We are made for God, only in him can we find completness, therefore eternity without God is HELL. Imagine forever knowing the peace, beauty, etc you gave up because you wanted something now. In scripture Hell is talked about as being pain, fire, etc, because this is the only way we can understand it. ...
kgxxx10 1 week ago
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@dangerman808 cont. We have no concept of what it is like to live as a spirit, and how a spirit feels. We can get some idea from our earthly existance. However heaven and hell are just one moment, that never ends. Even in sleep we get some rest.
You say that many cultures have beleive in an afterlife, yet scripture does not take much in the way to correct this view if it is wrong. It does however continue to hammer in the unity of God, and his Oneness. It hammers in that our actions have ....
kgxxx10 1 week ago
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@dangerman808 cont conciquences, but only in a few verses if pushed can you come up with the concept that there is nothing after death.
In revelation we see heaven, and we see people so many that they can't be numbered! We don't see just a few, or 144,000 we see billions.
Don't be mislead by the JW's Heaven and Hell are very real. Otherwise Our Lord would not have warned us, Matt 10:28. And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: ....
kgxxx10 1 week ago