You mentioned that my posts have been spammed as well. Frankly, I have no idea if one of my own posts has been spammed.
I don't know if it possible to tell on my end. At any rate, I do see my posts on the main page here and I have not, as yet, seen that they have been spammed on the "see all comments" option.
Perhaps they could have been spammed and I just don't see it on my end.
However, I still think that spamming is very much a SIN AGAINST OBJECTIVE TRUTH itself and DUMB!!
Did you know.....A new King James Bible has broken a centuries-old tradition and is following in the footsteps of several Bible translations that restored the Divine Name to its original place in the Old Testament.
Read more: Cleveland Daily Banner - WRIGHT WAY: A New King James Bible
YOU ARE ALMOST 100% CERTAIN DEAD WRONG, sorry to say!
My seven posts were visible for several hours. Then they were suddenly spammed. You are saying [if I don't misunderstand you] that there's some glitch in YT responslible for this.
I don't believe that.
No! I was thoroughly spammed by someone.
I am NOT going to take that again.
I exerted mysef - all 7 were spammed.
I refuse to comment here.
If you have something to say to me, say it on my wall or on my wall.
@tommotian Yes I have to agree I am wrong. Prods posts were visible and then got marked as spam. This is sad. I guess the people can't provide any real answers, so they feel they need to silence you. This is very sad.
I would like to take on this topic as well as others you mentioned, but right now I have to go to work, so I will give answer when I return. Until then, I do hope that others post their own answers to your questions.
"Is it right for religions to side with countries?"
No doubt you ask this because you feel uncomfortable with the possibility that a particular religion may "side" with a particular political movement or party or a civil leader may wish to seek support from religious leaders.
This is a valid question which should be discussed.
The Watchtower's very foundation has much to do with this concern and it has used this as a "banner" of sorts.
tommotian i see ur points, but u dont seem to take any deep knowledge of other things. then u can only be right. u develop this type of ''hate'' for the JW's. everybody u may think u r right and also i do that, but u need to reasonable and teachable to fully understand. ask yourself do u accept to hear the teachings of others only to weigh it against something else or do u lean on your understanding and use the deceptive mouth to influence ur comments. many conflicts and i have more answers.
i saw in spammed comments that u dont judge an army by its deserters, but by the loyal ones. i see all ur statements and reasonings. yet i need more proof than talking to former JW's. now i have questions. is it right for religions to side with countries e.g. hitler with catholics. can someone come to be reasonable if he/she favors one subject over another. i only see the comments of people only saying that they talked to some former JW's and yet no proof. hell is a concept and open to talk
@dangerman808 I was the one who said we don't judge and army by the deserters. Scripture also tells us we are to pray for our leaders. I Tim 2 [1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
dangerman808 Hell is more then a concept, it is a real place/state of being.
Matt 5:22. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Jesus is raising the bar here and the commandment not to kill. By disrespecitng your brother you put yourself into danger.
Matt 13 [41] The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity. [42] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Jesus is warning us that there will be a judgement, and those who are doing bad things will be punshied for this! Don't ignore this.
@tommotian Actually I sometimes wonder if it is just YT tagging it because we tend to post lots in a row. I think if we miss the catchpa the first time I think it rates it higher on the spam scale. Cause some of the posts marked as spam just don't fit pattern of someone trying to suppress it. Also I generally will read those tagged as spam anyway.
I now see that your posts are also being "spammed".
This makes no sense at all to me. It is the denial of objective reality to spam posts.
The comment was made, the point was lucid, clear and understandable, and anyone may counter the point. Instead, some very strange person ends up "spamming" the post so others will have to go to the "see all" option to see his posts.
This is INSANITY!
Friends, don't deny objective reality by "spamming" it, be an adult and make a lucid reply.
I was TODAY!!! told by a former, loyal, JW that before he was disfellowshipped he was counselled that:
""a brother or sister caught in a situation where disfellowshipping may be the result can attempt at a display of repentance which may work for them." This has directly to do with God. Example: my own case, when I was asked to accept that the Governing Body is God's representative on earth.".
"Does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...[This] was a body of men and women. ... known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses" (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).
1914, 1925, 1975 [end of world] - FALSE PROPHECY ALERT!!
@tommotian This is interesting, The Church says that all public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle (St John). There can be no new teachings. There can be deeping of understanding, or different ways of presenting the same teaching, but there can never be any new teaching.
If something conflicts with what was previously taught we are the be highly suspect of it, and generally reject it.
I think former JW's like myself would quit fighting the Watchtower if/when the Watchtower Society would stop using former members, "evil apostates", as punching bags in their literature and at their conventions.
But the Watchtower won't ever stop, because they need to create a common enemy to help keep the JW's loyal, and the shunning to instill in them an almost deadly fear of the consequences of leaving.
I think former JW's like myself would quit fighting the Watchtower if/when the Watchtower Society would stop using former members, "evil apostates", as punching bags in their literature and at their conventions.
But the Watchtower won't ever stop, because they need to create a common enemy to help keep the JW's loyal, and the shunning to instill in them an almost deadly fear of the consequences of leaving.
"For this corruptible (body), must put on incorruption, and this mortal (body), must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?'
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
I see that someone has listed kgxxx10's comments as "spam". I had to go to the "see all" option to view his comments.
PLEASE....DO NOT DO THIS!
It is a sin against the search for objective truth to "spam" any reasonable, charitable posts and it is manifestly unfair to not only the person who made the "spammed" comment, but also to the dialogue itself.
Let the dialogue stand on its own and let the chips fall where they may.
"Spamming" posts is not only cowardly, but also STUPID!
Angela parallell scripture to 1 Cor 15:51-53 [v 52 especially]:
"the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMPET call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.", 1 Thess 4:16.
I thought this one is worth mentioning, for the trumpet is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 as well: "For the trumpet will sound ..."
Q. What about the "souls" in Rev 6:9-10, or In Rev 20:4?
A. Since they are in Heavent they are souls with spirit bodies. We are souls, human souls of flesh and blood. Those in Heaven are souls of a different nature.
Strong's Greek: "soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality. ... (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person".
@tommotian One of the problems is that the JW's misunderstand
I Cor 15:50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
If you read this in context, Paul is talking about if we focus on the things of this earth, we will never be able to focus on the things of heaven, therefore we will loose heaven. In other words Paul is not nescissarly speaking literally, more likely figuratively.
Q. How come the dead are unconscious "if Jesus was able to TALK to the dead when he "descended to the dead" before he himself rose?"
A. You are referring to 1 Peter 3:19, 20 which says that after Jesus was "made alive" he preached "to the imprisoned spirits" who were disobedient in the days of Noah".
The JW answer is that the spirits are the fallen angels of God who, when the flood came, returned to the spirit world but cannot come to Heaven - thus imprisoned! and debased.
You believe in the "glorified" body ... the "change" that you believe Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:51.
I agree.
Verse 51: "we will all be changed".
Strong's Greek gives "transformed" as an alternative to "changed". But it's basically the same; a transformation from a body of flesh and blood to one that is not; a spiritual body, the nature of which is such that it can enter Heaven.
From what is perishable [fleshly nature] --> IMperishable [spirit nature]. v 53.
@tommotian I prefer to stick with scripture here: I Cor 2:9. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.
Whatever it is we can think of, God will have something even better planed for us. We can speculate, but why bother? I prefer to be suprised about these things.
I do agree with you regarding 1 Cor 15:51 and "changed". I do believe that it is still called "flesh" from Job 19:26 and Christ in Lk 24:39... I believe this is flesh as Christ had when He entered the room through the locked door (Jn 20:19) and took on the form of the gardener (Jn 20:15). I also believe that it is the dead (the body from the grave) which is raised to life (Jn 5:28-29), which is how I understand there to be a "change".
I am always pleased to see you making contributions to the dialogue. I have to work today, so I will miss Tom's responses until I get back home.
With him being in Sweden, the time difference makes for some interesting "posting tag" games. Once again, Tom will be in bed by the time I get back home to read his responses and possibly make a reply. Ha ha!
It is what it is, but it does discipline one to only reply AFTER thinking longer.
Correction below... not a "resurrection of the original body", I believe in the "glorified" body... the "change" that I believe Paul spoke of (1 Cor 15:51)...
Thank you for responding! I have to be honest.. I’m trying to understand how this is not reincarnation… not that I’m claiming that it is, just that I may not be fully understanding. I absolutely agree with you when you say that not everything that comes from the WTS is erroneous, if it were they would not attract some very honest and intelligent Christians
(as I see they do). I know that you were there when I came to the understanding of the Resurrection of the body and you know that it was through the teachings of the Society that I began to recognize this in the Scriptures. I found this first from Job (19:26), it just ballooned from there… I started seeing it throughout the Old and New Testaments. I didn’t know what to make of it, but my understanding was already that Christ was raised in the flesh.
3 I come to see that He was the ‘firstfruits from the dead’… displaying what our own resurrection will be like as Paul is clear in the last half of 1 Cor. ch. 15. You know my belief in the bodily Resurrection of Christ, I’ve explained my position (primarily based upon, though not limited to, Jn 2:19-21; Lk 24:39; Acts 13:34). I also remember your position clearly, I know that your greatest objection was that this might forfeit the sacrifice by your understanding of Heb 10:10…
while I do understand your objection and find it valid and insightful, I do still disagree and maintain my belief that receiving His body back would not undo the sacrifice.. I feel that John 10:17 is relevant here. I felt that I needed to explain that only to justify my own belief… which is that we will be raised in our own flesh (whatever that may mean [?],
Paul called it “a mystery… we will all be changed” (1 Cor 15:51). One of the points that I feel I can only take as a resurrection of the original body is still Mt 10:28 “fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”… this doesn’t seem to be a hypothetical claim,
I believe that Jesus confirmed this in John 5:28-29 when He said that we will rise from our graves, some to a resurrection of life.. others to a resurrection of damnation.
Also, Acts 2:26 and the Valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1-14).
I believe that we can take Lazarus not as an example of our resurrection, but an example of God’s power over death. Martha didn’t seem to believe, she said that he had been buried for four days, that his body stunk…
7 of course rigor mortus had set in within the first hours, by day four… putrefaction began. Although, I believe raising him from death is no more miraculous than creating him from nothing in the first place =). Like the resurrection of the flesh (given cremation, dismemberment, deterioration, etc.), I don’t claim to be able to comprehend it in the slightest way… I only believe that it’s true. This is really not where I meant to go, though =D… sorry about that!
I am sorry I missed you earlier, I had to work all day and I will have to work tomorrow as well. Perhaps you can answer as to the Watchtower's beliefs concerning the life of the soul in greater depth.
You mentioned earlier that they believe:
"The dead are unconscious until resurrected..So it is a belief in soul-sleep"
How does this make sense if Jesus was able to TALK to the dead when he "descended to the dead" before he himself rose?
What about the "souls" in Rev 6:9-10, or In Rev 20:4?
I hope that you don't mind my butting in! The Society does not teach that Christ spoke during the 3 days in Hades. Of His preaching to "the spirits in prison", since they teach that the all of those deceased remained unconscious until 1918, they refer this to the fallen angels who had affairs w/women... I strongly feel that the context of 1 Peter 3:18:21 implies that they were the humans that did not survive the flood.
It was strange that they would not even go near the bodies of loved ones.
We believe that ALL stages of life and death are Sacred because of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Because Jesus was conceived, conception is Sacred; as a fetus in Mary's womb, Jesus Sanctifies that stage; as an infant, infancy is Sanctified; as a child, childhood is Sanctified; as a youth, youth is Sanctified; as an adult, adulthood is Sanctified; as he died, death itself is made Holy.
When answering your questions I feel a sadness in my heart, for the JW couple who conducted the study with me for me to become a JW were honest, good people. I remember asking them the questions you are asking me now, and they answered them to the best of their ability.
They are dead now, they were devoted.
I believe they are in God's memory.
They died before the Internet era, I thank God for that.
prod actually commented on his failing English being a second language and how well his intentional mis-speaking was quite good.
If you guys can't see thorugh this idiot, you really need help.
Do a little secrete investigating..examine how he plays off himself..
What a loser!
BTW the US Conference of Catholic Bishops came up with a way to lower the number of Bishops and Priest classified as PEDOPHILES..they Redefined the age of Puberty to begin at 10 years old
I really would like the rationale of my grandpa who arranged this... but that can't happen. He had my aunt cremated, which made me wonder how the body was to rise again. I asked the witnesses at one of the studies, they told me that it is a new body. I want to know how this does not interfere with our shared belief that there is no such thing as reincarnation? Do you know how this is reconciled? Do they have a unique definition for 'reincarnation'?
I'm trying to figure out whether this might actually have something to do with the soul vs. the spirit? It seems that my (Catholic) view of a soul is pretty equivalent to the WTS's view of a spirit, though... each is unique to each person.
@fezik82 Yes and no, to them the spirit is the force that animates the body. Sort of like eletricity. To us the Soul is the essence of who we are. The Soul has the ablity to will and make choices. According to the JW's when the spirit leave the body it is gone.
Cremation does not really cause me a problem. God can easily recreate for us physical bodies. Also if the body is not properly preserved, in about 1-2years there aint much left to it.
They believe since your physical body is destroyed [correct of course] when you die, SOMETHING survives which is kept in God's memory [palm]. THIS contains all your memories, your personality, what really makes YOU unique.
This unique YOU is given a new body, be it an earthly one or a spiritual one, and so you know when resurrected who you are ... personlity, memories, all of it.
But, the Bible also says that the soul, nefesch, dies ... this is difficult.
From my description you can see that they do not believe in reincarnation. That is a Hindu concept. At your resurrection, "God gives it [the unique YOU which [who?] was resting in God's palm] a body, just as it has pleased him", 1 Cor 15:38 NWT.
This makes sense to me! The JWs aren't wrong on all counts.
Do you see what I mean, do I make myself understood?
You people out there are told if everyone in a group doesn’t believe EXACTLY the same thing, that’s a lack of unity, but Col 3:14 says LOVE "is a perfect bond of unity", NOT the robotic sameness the WTS is requiring of you!
Christ's yoke is easy and his burden light, Matt 11:30, but being a Jehovah’s Witness is actually a very heavy yoke. Read Romans 14 and John 8:32 thoughtfully about the Christian freedom ALL OF US, including JWs and "interested ones", are supposed to enjoy.
I must caution you. I was a JW for decades. When they speak of "the truth", they without exception refer to the teachings of the WTS REGARDLELL OF them being true or not, and if you do NOT agree on a certain teaching OF THE WTS and say so, you will WITHOUT FAIL be disfellowshipped.
This is very bad because it means:
1) Putting the words of the WTS above Jesus & the apostles,
"a person coming to just learn the truth will hate all other religious practices and will anger at such events like a funeral or a wedding in another religion."
I assume you meant to say, "A person coming to just learn what they BELIEVE to be the truth will hate all other religious practices."
Yes, in that case, it can be said that, "Hell hath no fury like a new convert".
However, people often "hate" what they do not understand, they just "think" they understand it.
@ProdigalSonship everybody has a certain extent of how they understand things. JW's do about the world and other religions and vise verca. most people dont usually accept all religions and tend to favor one to not want to learn about another. yes they could be enemies and that is how some JW's view it and some view company as acceptable, but dont apply cultures or practices while with each other just as a person going to another religious event. its tolerated not life changing.
"the spirituality of a newly baptized or new bible studier can be weak as to be disgusted with the practices of other religions."
This concept of "being disgusted with the practices of other religions" is VERY odd nowadays.
This is not a "reasoned" approach at all, it is quite "cultish" reasoning in fact.
One must FIRST try to understand the "objective" history of each religion by starting at the "genesis" of the religion and the "culture" of its beginnings.
@ProdigalSonship ah i see. well i just tried to get my word out to compare to yours. i just used the example of my auntie and her new found hatred of other religions. i wont try to complain more because the next answer would be favoring one side and not taking in consideration of wat u have said. thank you for enlightening me
"to all people wishing to conflict with me i want to point out that i am a mere boy and still have to research on both sides of a discussion."
This seems to me to be an honest answer and has a welcome tone of sincere humility about it which is very seldom seen. You are welcome here.
An honest, enquiring mind is very healthy. It is one which is open to new ideas and sound reason. There is nothing to fear in conflict when one is reasonable and seeks truth.
to all people wishing to conflict with me i want to point out that i am a mere boy and still have to research on both sides of a discussion. do not think of me as a man coming to know everything, but as a person still fresh in the world and open minded and not favoring one subject over another. i try not be bias as some of ur answers to me might be
@ProdigalSonship u have a general idea of a non attending JW, but why should it be like as the law to attend events.let me provide an illustration. the spirituality of a newly baptized or new bible studier can be weak as to be disgusted with the practices of other religions. a person coming to just learn the truth will hate all other religious practices and will anger at such events like a funeral or a wedding in another religion.as time passes they learn to tolerate such things
"yes u have an opinion, but why is it necessary for them to go? sure u see the loved one and maybe unite the family, but u enforce this attendance like it's a sin to not attend."
I have no wish to force anyone.
As said before, the issue to me is the REASON they choose NOT to go REASONABLE?
I attend these events out of solidarity, love and respect for the individual dignity of family members, not necessarily because I have a "solidarity" with the events themselves.
"u do not get DF'd for going to such events, but practicing sin without repentance. if u go to certain events totally rely or ur decision not someone saying u gotta go"
I have heard that a number of JW's do get disfellowshipped for just going into a church or synagogue. It is my understanding that it is illicit for them to merely cross the threshold of the door of a church.
This sounds somewhat like a superstitious mindset to me.
"It is my understanding that it is illicit for them to merely cross the threshold of the door of a church."
It is not. It depends on why you do so. If you PARTICIPATE in a religious ceremony in the church, that is forbidden.
Let's assume you as a JW are on a vacation. You are in a group of people travelling somewhere. The group out of curiosity wishes to visit [and enter] a church of a denomination foreign to them, just to see what it looks like.
@ProdigalSonship well that is most likely not the cause. if u look into peoples' personal affairs as 1 thess 4:11 not to do then u will know what problems people have. just look into their situations and a lot more things could be covered. u most likely dont know their mentality and thoughts to make them do actions that could get them DF'd. again i say u can look into their personal affairs and know why people get DF'd
Perhaps you think that merely attending a family affair somehow puts your "stamp of approval" of the goings on?
I have attended all manner of meetings, the primary purpose of which I was in essential disagreement.
Just because one attends a family function to celebrate or grieve as a family, does not mean that one is in fact in full agreement with what was said or done.
One may very reasonably attend a family function to show "family solidarity" without fully "participating" in it.
@ProdigalSonship first of all i want to state that different JW's i have come to know have different spiritual levels and consciences and these events at different religious places could either sicken them, anger them, or damage their spirituality. as u know people make personal choices whether to go or not. u do not get DF'd for going to such events, but practicing sin without repentance. if u go to certain events totally rely or ur decision not someone saying u gotta go
@ProdigalSonship they continue to seek their kingdom first then other things. protecting spirituality is a must for them because it's their relationship to god. i have come to know the thinking of us ''worldly people of the nations'' and the JW's perspective. if u try to prove something u need 2 parts of a discussion and it seems that a lot of people dont consider their point of view. i wish to continue this talk to try and enlighten u and vice-versa.
bunch of apostates and i dont see any proof only talk. cmon u guys getting pissed cuz u dont like that they're preaching. i bet all of the itchers and complainers dont even look into wat they teach and only go off of wat other bitchers and complainers say. also wrong translation? i didnt see him explain how it's wrong i bet he's a bitcher too because he dont like the bible, plus he was probably comparing english to greek so no wonder they look different. bitchers
It is very good to see you back, you have been sorely missed here as of late!
I asked those reading the dialogue over a week ago to tell us of any instances they may have experienced when they knew a JW who refused to go to a Wedding, Baptism or Funeral because it happened to occur in a "church" or "synagogue", as opposed to a Kingdom Hall.
I have seen this before when a JW was afraid to attend the Weddings and Funerals of family members!!
It's odd for me, my grandparents refused to go to most of our bigger events. When we did see them, they would pin us down for conversion. My sister (somewhat out of fear of rejection & somewhat out of bitterness, I believe) did not invite them to her wedding, so they made a point by showing up to mine. This was my first event that they attended, it was actually pleasant... but then everything went back to normal =(
@ProdigalSonship did u know that ppl have a conscience and can make choices? no law says that not attending a funeral or wedding at a church or synagogue is illegal. do u know that people make excuses to not go to events while JW's have reasons not to go. thats just like a communist encouraging democracy. u dont mix want u know will conflict like that. religions r not to mix.false religions mix with countries and war each. like catholics fighting catholics and each praying to the same god to win
@dangerman808 What reasons would a JW have not to go to another church? Why would you not go to a wedding if invited or a funeral? Other then prior commitments or family reason what could be a valid reason to not attend?
@kgxxx10 yes u have an opinion, but why is it necessary for them to go? sure u see the loved one and maybe unite the family, but u enforce this attendance like it's a sin to not attend. they believe in a resurrection and that in their new system the ''former things will have passed away'' including death or sickness. mourning or continuously grieving will damage u as a person emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually. it's a personal choice to go or not. the choice s yours.
@dangerman808 Ok... the reason to attend a wedding would be to show your support and approval of the bond. The reason to attend a funeral is to help support those who are left behind. Grieving the lose of someone close is normal and a natural part of the process, to ignore this is wrong. Assisting those who are left behind is also good. So to miss this important events shows a lack of wishing to be involved in the community.
@kgxxx10 then again it is still a personal decision. it's just more in favor of surroundings and atmosphere of people there because they all have same teachings and beliefs. nothing wrong with non JW's to attend JW events. 2004 16 mil people attended the JW memorial and 10mil werent baptized. i attended JW events such as certain conventions and baptisms. u need to understand that people and make choices and not everybody is the same. u linger in ur own beliefs and arent open minded
@kgxxx10 i know that if they accept their teachings that they are very good people. i love the company of them and i like to widen my association to understand people more. i am not a hater of religions or race. i do not favor. i answer according to statements using my knowledge
@kgxxx10 yes. u r partially right. from wat i read and observe u always imply that people have to go and i will always answer that it is a personal decision to go to events JW or non JW. the thing u lack to understand is purpose and motive. think about those to things because that affects action. its not illegal not to go to such events. 100% JW's care about family and u only have conflict with the people who dont go. tell me wat is ur purpose and motive plz
@dangerman808 Of course it is a personal decision, I will not deny this. However I believe that the WTS seriously frowns on attending events at other churches.
@kgxxx10 and that is where u lack the research. i can see u probably are a grown man or woman and have come to know many people and certain JW's. i have responded to other conflicts and said why other JW's accept these events and why others dont. in time as they learn in their religon they learn to accept certain things and tolerate certain things. also we all sin and have fits of anger and some JW's are wet behind the ears and just hate other religions. again as they learn they accept
@dangerman808 This might be true... they have a high turnover rate from what I understand. Also I have read much of their literature and books, and spoken to many over the last few years, so I am not speaking out of ignorance.
"i hope in the future we both come to know the true accurate knowledge of the JW's".
I do hope that you will very soon come to know that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the SOLE source of religious truth, nor do they have the monopoly on Christianity.
Christianity is not an Organization.
Jesus Christ IS! the truth, John 14:6.
It doesn't say the Watchtower Society is.
This is so true that even a child would understand it.
Please read my two posts on being a footstep follower!
@dangerman808 Remember I have read much of thier literature, and talked with many. Spent many weeks about 2 years ago talking with members from my local KH on my porch. Been to the KH. I prefer to speak with active members, rather then those who have left. You don't judge and army by it's deserters, but by it's loyal troops. Many times ex members have axes to grind.
@kgxxx10 they dont. they frown on the religion hosting the event. they are taught not to hate but to pray for enemies and only hate actions. they dont frown upon people just the ''false religion'' as they put it
@fezik82 this is another thing in which i would like to clarify.let me point out that no matter who u r a close loved one's death will cause u to feel sad and or to mourn the dead one. the thing is to not linger in that state of sorrow or sadness and i said earlier it will affect u. there is nothing wrong with mourning if thats wat u want. they provide scriptures or publications to ease the pain, but the spirituality of the person will tell if they are truly whole souled to their god
@dangerman808 The witnesses do not believe in an eternal soul. The dead cease to exist until God choose to perhaps resurrect them if they have been good enough.
@kgxxx10 they believe in not going to hell or heaven, but that the dead r ''sleeping'' in their resurrection. before their Armageddon people who were killed before will be resurrection. only the people destroyed in their armageddon will not be resurrected and i also have an answer explaining why. the wages for sin is death and through death u have been cleared of ur sin is wat they believe
@dangerman808 If you press them they will admit that those who are dead don't exist anymore. They believe in heaven for the anointed class. However there lack of believe in hell always makes me wonder, Our Lord talked more about Hell then he did about Heaven. Seems kind of funny to talk a lot about something that is not real!
@kgxxx10 i honestly dont have a bible for reasons of finding conflicts in different religions and myself to become stumbled on sides of a subject. would u plz enlighten me upon your lord's meaning of hell? all i know from JW literature is that to them hell isnt real. i honestly have come to be stumbeld on this and more research and time is required. the egyptians also believed in a different afterlife and also the vikings and many others and i only heard about sumting like hell 1 time
@dangerman808 Basically we have one choose to make in this life. God or not God. If we choose God we get to spend eternity with him. If we choose not God we get to spend eternity away from him. We are made for God, only in him can we find completness, therefore eternity without God is HELL. Imagine forever knowing the peace, beauty, etc you gave up because you wanted something now. In scripture Hell is talked about as being pain, fire, etc, because this is the only way we can understand it. ...
@dangerman808 cont. We have no concept of what it is like to live as a spirit, and how a spirit feels. We can get some idea from our earthly existance. However heaven and hell are just one moment, that never ends. Even in sleep we get some rest.
You say that many cultures have beleive in an afterlife, yet scripture does not take much in the way to correct this view if it is wrong. It does however continue to hammer in the unity of God, and his Oneness. It hammers in that our actions have ....
@dangerman808 cont conciquences, but only in a few verses if pushed can you come up with the concept that there is nothing after death.
In revelation we see heaven, and we see people so many that they can't be numbered! We don't see just a few, or 144,000 we see billions.
Don't be mislead by the JW's Heaven and Hell are very real. Otherwise Our Lord would not have warned us, Matt 10:28. And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: ....
I don't mean to post and bail, but I only have a minute... they believe that the spirits of the 'great crowd' are reserved unconscious until life on Paradise Earth. Since 1934, they claim that 1918 marked the time of Christ's Kingship... the spirits of the anointed now go directly to heaven upon death.
Actually, I would like your opinions on a series I recently watched online at pbs.org. It is found there under the video section for a famous program called NOVA. The videos are done by a scientist named Brian Greene. They are based on his best selling book called, "The Fabric of the Cosmos". They are done VERY well and there are right now four different videos to be seen at pbs.org on NOVA called:
If you guys are gonna get into mathematics beyond simple arithmetic here, then I am totally lost! LOL
I can only try to understand Quantum Mechanics and Theory as concepts or constructs. Sadly, I have a rather poor background in "higher math" and so you guys will very rapidly be "leaving me in the dust" if you delve deeply into the "math" aspect of it all. Ha ha!
I thank you for moving your dialogue to another channel called "Is the Bible true", by the channel owner who is known as "bubbafuss".
I am sure we all wish you well in your discussions.
Thankfully, this affords others an opportunity to make comments about issues having to do with the Watchtower's Bible, or Watchtower and JW issues in general.
I invite all truly interested in a rational, charitable dialogue to make contributions to this particular subject material.
What you are asking me about is Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity. It describes how spacetime changes shape in the presence of matter. The greater the mass, the more the distortion, or CURVATURE in the universe. This curvature of spacetime creates attraction between all the masses in the universe. That attraction is the GRAVITATIONAL FORCE. I don’t know if I am making myself understood … what one must understand is the importance of mass; baryonic matter.
The mass is what creates the curvature, and this curvature creates gravity! If we have a very strong gravitational field, such as near a black hole, the curvature of space near it is very strong. – The James Webb telescope will be looking for proof of this. Also, time slows down in the presence of matter. The greater the concentration of matter, the slower clocks tick. In summary: Given a high concentration of matter, space near it is curved and time slows down.
Both physical space and time itself is affected, therefore is spoken of as one unit only and is called SPACETIME. Space AND time is combined into a single continuum called spacetime. There is much more to be said about time itself … such as, it can be proved mathematically that you would not experience this as extra years, or even more, added to your life-span were you near a very large lump of matter – no! But to ME, far away from you, it would seem that way.
This is very hard to understand. Matter is never destroyed, correct. With one exception maybe. We don’t know the fate of matter falling into a black hole. The “hole” is black because not even light can escape from it. The point in it where mass disappears due to the immense gravity is called the SINGULARITY. We know it exists. But we will never know what happens there.
I would be very happy to get to know from God why he did all this the way he did it!!
@tommotian Matter falling into a black hole is not destroyed. However it is out of touch with the universe. Hawkings predicted that black holes would evaporate, which actually fits with quantum theory.
You said: "Matter falling into a black hole is not destroyed."
That is a very definite statement. We do NOT know. It's fate is UNKNOWN.
What you said about the quantum theory and the evaporating of black holes, however, is correct.
The energy of the black hole is transmitted to outside the event horizon as gravitational radiation to replace the energy taken away by an escaping particle that was once a virtual particle. I can explanin more about it if you like.
@tommotian I took some high energy physics courses in college, and a lot on semiconductor physics, however I am really out of date on all this. By definition we can never know what happens in a black hole. Since there is no way to get any information out of it.
Did he predict that all black holes would evaporate, or just the micro black holes? Michio Kaku (spelling?) has said that finding out which came first, the galaxy or the black holes, is like the chicken or the egg question.. I thought that this suggested that black holes are possibly older than the entire galaxy. I just assumed that they must form something that we need to survive, maybe to remain in our position...am I in lala land? Do they have benefits, or are just there?
@fezik82 I'm not sure about the current theories on this. Or if there is an upper limit. My thoughts would say that the more massive the black hole, the slower the evaporation would be. There would have been some very massive black holes formed in the first few milliseconds of the universe when the densities where really high.
Pairs of virtual particles spontaneously appear and disappear so quickly that they do not violate any known laws of nature. The tidal forces very near a black hole is so strong that it tears apart two virtual particles that appears there just before they destroy each other. At least one of them now having used up gravitational energy to make them real disappears into the black hole. This emittance of gravitat. energy from the black hole is the evaporation!
I know you may not want to distract the dialogue even further to discuss this topic of "Spacetime", but perhaps it would be of some benefit in so far as it clearly seems to suggest that nothing and NO ONE is ever "definitively lost" in the Cosmos, but rather, matter just "changes" into other forms and "Spacetime" itself CAN be seen as having not so much a "past" or a "future", but an eternal PRESENT, depending on the "perspective".
Hi prod. Your questions will be answered in a few posts, but very much is needed to in-depth understand. However, I try to explain some basic concepts.
Right about now would be a good time for Tom to put on his Astronomer's hat to talk to us about the "space-time continuum", or "Spacetime".
It has been shown that OUR "time", as such, is an illusion.
All "times" exist in "space". Because of this, ultimately, there is no such thing as past or future, ONLY the "present". It is a matter of "perspective" so far as "space time" is concerned.
Historical Christianity has often talked of God as being "outside" of what we know as "time".
@ProdigalSonship Yes it boggles the mind when we contemplate this. We are never fully ourselves, since we exist over a series of nows. God exists in the eternal NOW, for God past,present and future are the same to him. This is also why he is unchanging, because he does not experience time. We can see this in Rev, where it talks about the Lamb slain from the foundation of the universe.
@kgxxx10 Let me give you a little bit of ACTUAL history. Jews could not recant their faith and race and be turned loose by the Nazis..LOL Close to the dumbest thing you have ever said
We exist over a series of nows and God exists in the eternal now..Now thats the dumbest thing you have said,
Sufficient evidence to convist? How much evidence did the Papacy need to prove you a WITCH? What happened, did they turn someone into a NEWT!
You have been right from the very beginning of course. I must apologize for having lent a hand in engaging in a dialogue which is so far from the stated purpose of this particular video that it has become one massively huge NON SEQUITUR!
Since both DraugarX and kgxxx10 are very willing to move their discussion to another public video on youtube, then I am sure it is best for all concerned that they do so.
@ProdigalSonship If he gives me a video to move to or wishes to take this private I have no problem with that. I don't have the time to search for a appropriate video.
Take a look at two quotes from two nights ago from both DraugarX and kgxxx10:
"I would be happy to discuss this somewhere else. PM me with a different site. I believe what we have to say should be heard/read. BOTH SIDES." DraugarX
And then kgxxx10"s response:
"@DraugarX Choose a video or via PM, it does not matter to me. Just let me know."
Obviously, both are WILLING to MOVE their dialogue to a DIFFERENT youtube site so this particular channel can RESUME its stated purpose.
What our friend DraugarX seems to be oddly terrified to say is that he is an Atheist, he does not believe there is a God. This is why he will not give definitive answers as to his belief in a God; just WHY he believes in a God; and just HOW he came to believe in a God.
How very BIZARRE.
If he DOES NOT believe there is a God, then he should have the courage HERE to state it openly. If he DOES believe there is a God, then he also should be courageous and open about it.
One was written a VERY long time ago and the other was written JUST two nights ago by DraugarX . The quotes exhibit FUNDAMENTALLY different philosophies about life
kgxxx10:
Rich,
You mentioned that my posts have been spammed as well. Frankly, I have no idea if one of my own posts has been spammed.
I don't know if it possible to tell on my end. At any rate, I do see my posts on the main page here and I have not, as yet, seen that they have been spammed on the "see all comments" option.
Perhaps they could have been spammed and I just don't see it on my end.
However, I still think that spamming is very much a SIN AGAINST OBJECTIVE TRUTH itself and DUMB!!
ProdigalSonship 2 days ago
Did you know.....A new King James Bible has broken a centuries-old tradition and is following in the footsteps of several Bible translations that restored the Divine Name to its original place in the Old Testament.
Read more: Cleveland Daily Banner - WRIGHT WAY: A New King James Bible
thumpa5252 2 days ago
kgxxx10 Sorry, for a moment I was careless. I mean of course "say it on my wall or on your wall".
OK.
tommotian 2 days ago
kgxxx10 on spamming
YOU ARE ALMOST 100% CERTAIN DEAD WRONG, sorry to say!
My seven posts were visible for several hours. Then they were suddenly spammed. You are saying [if I don't misunderstand you] that there's some glitch in YT responslible for this.
I don't believe that.
No! I was thoroughly spammed by someone.
I am NOT going to take that again.
I exerted mysef - all 7 were spammed.
I refuse to comment here.
If you have something to say to me, say it on my wall or on my wall.
tommotian 2 days ago
@tommotian Yes I have to agree I am wrong. Prods posts were visible and then got marked as spam. This is sad. I guess the people can't provide any real answers, so they feel they need to silence you. This is very sad.
kgxxx10 2 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
dangerman808:
My friend,
I would like to take on this topic as well as others you mentioned, but right now I have to go to work, so I will give answer when I return. Until then, I do hope that others post their own answers to your questions.
Peace be with you.
ProdigalSonship 3 days ago
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dangerman808:
Thank you for your comments. You ask here:
"Is it right for religions to side with countries?"
No doubt you ask this because you feel uncomfortable with the possibility that a particular religion may "side" with a particular political movement or party or a civil leader may wish to seek support from religious leaders.
This is a valid question which should be discussed.
The Watchtower's very foundation has much to do with this concern and it has used this as a "banner" of sorts.
ProdigalSonship 3 days ago
tommotian i see ur points, but u dont seem to take any deep knowledge of other things. then u can only be right. u develop this type of ''hate'' for the JW's. everybody u may think u r right and also i do that, but u need to reasonable and teachable to fully understand. ask yourself do u accept to hear the teachings of others only to weigh it against something else or do u lean on your understanding and use the deceptive mouth to influence ur comments. many conflicts and i have more answers.
dangerman808 3 days ago
@dangerman808
We'll see. At present, No. If you want to question me, Please do so on my wall.
tommotian 2 days ago
i saw in spammed comments that u dont judge an army by its deserters, but by the loyal ones. i see all ur statements and reasonings. yet i need more proof than talking to former JW's. now i have questions. is it right for religions to side with countries e.g. hitler with catholics. can someone come to be reasonable if he/she favors one subject over another. i only see the comments of people only saying that they talked to some former JW's and yet no proof. hell is a concept and open to talk
dangerman808 3 days ago
@dangerman808 I was the one who said we don't judge and army by the deserters. Scripture also tells us we are to pray for our leaders. I Tim 2 [1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
kgxxx10 3 days ago
dangerman808 Hell is more then a concept, it is a real place/state of being.
Matt 5:22. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Jesus is raising the bar here and the commandment not to kill. By disrespecitng your brother you put yourself into danger.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@dangerman808
Matt 13 [41] The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity. [42] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Jesus is warning us that there will be a judgement, and those who are doing bad things will be punshied for this! Don't ignore this.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
Goodbye.
tommotian 3 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
In just the last few hours no less than 7 of my comments were spammed, ALL of them at the same time.
That is some heavy censorship!
They will remain invisible unless the visitor knows the trick to make them visible: To hit the "View all Comments" button.
What's the point of coming here knowing that you are to be silenced?
NONE!
But there are other, frequently visited sites, so you will not get to me that easily.
Slimeball!
I do not regret a single line in my previous post.
tommotian 3 days ago
@tommotian Actually I sometimes wonder if it is just YT tagging it because we tend to post lots in a row. I think if we miss the catchpa the first time I think it rates it higher on the spam scale. Cause some of the posts marked as spam just don't fit pattern of someone trying to suppress it. Also I generally will read those tagged as spam anyway.
kgxxx10 3 days ago
@kgxxx10
I hit the "show all" and generally read the spammed comments first. In a way, this person is doing a service to those that they are spamming =D
fezik82 3 days ago
To the [JW? "interested one"?] out there active in the spamming business.
You slimy [Watchtowerist?] creep, this one is for you:
It is not possible to remain a poster here because some imbecill person[s] is/are spamming not only my comments but those of others as well.
Whoever is/are doing it, You are a sick devil and one day you will pay for this.
When that day comes, I thank God I'm not in your shoes!
This is where it all ends because the site is not moderated.
tommotian 4 days ago
be blessed
muzzledchristians1 4 days ago
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tommotian:
Tom,
I now see that your posts are also being "spammed".
This makes no sense at all to me. It is the denial of objective reality to spam posts.
The comment was made, the point was lucid, clear and understandable, and anyone may counter the point. Instead, some very strange person ends up "spamming" the post so others will have to go to the "see all" option to see his posts.
This is INSANITY!
Friends, don't deny objective reality by "spamming" it, be an adult and make a lucid reply.
ProdigalSonship 4 days ago
Pick your choice!
tommotian 4 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I was TODAY!!! told by a former, loyal, JW that before he was disfellowshipped he was counselled that:
""a brother or sister caught in a situation where disfellowshipping may be the result can attempt at a display of repentance which may work for them." This has directly to do with God. Example: my own case, when I was asked to accept that the Governing Body is God's representative on earth.".
He refused. They disfellowshipped him.
WHO are the JWs following?
1) The Gov. Body.
2) Jesus.
tommotian 4 days ago
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dagerman808 being a follower of who? [3]
The WTS claims to have prophets:
"Does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...[This] was a body of men and women. ... known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses" (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).
1914, 1925, 1975 [end of world] - FALSE PROPHECY ALERT!!
tommotian 5 days ago
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@tommotian This is interesting, The Church says that all public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle (St John). There can be no new teachings. There can be deeping of understanding, or different ways of presenting the same teaching, but there can never be any new teaching.
If something conflicts with what was previously taught we are the be highly suspect of it, and generally reject it.
kgxxx10 5 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Whoever you are, stop spamming my posts! Or anyone else's for that matter.
If you have something to say, say it.
Challenge me please!
What are you afraid of?
Reposting below!
tommotian 5 days ago
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dangerman808 being a follower of who? [2]
I think former JW's like myself would quit fighting the Watchtower if/when the Watchtower Society would stop using former members, "evil apostates", as punching bags in their literature and at their conventions.
But the Watchtower won't ever stop, because they need to create a common enemy to help keep the JW's loyal, and the shunning to instill in them an almost deadly fear of the consequences of leaving.
There is no middle-ground.
tommotian 5 days ago
Comment removed
tommotian 5 days ago
a christian is a footstep follower of christ is wat i was told. is it true? plz reply.
dangerman808 5 days ago
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@dangerman808 being a follower of who? [1]
Here's the reply you asked for.
Yes, the Christian is a footstep follower of Christ.
The problem now is, They want you to be a footstep follower of an Organization to the point of denying your conscience.
They want you to acknowledge their Governing Body within this Organization as the only source of correct interpretation of Scripture.
That is how I was taught, and is still being told on YouTube, so indeed do I know.
Here I am warning you.
tommotian 5 days ago
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@dangerman808 being a follower of who? [2]
I think former JW's like myself would quit fighting the Watchtower if/when the Watchtower Society would stop using former members, "evil apostates", as punching bags in their literature and at their conventions.
But the Watchtower won't ever stop, because they need to create a common enemy to help keep the JW's loyal, and the shunning to instill in them an almost deadly fear of the consequences of leaving.
There is no middle-ground.
tommotian 5 days ago
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@dangerman808 Christ gave us the answer to this.
Luke 9:23. And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
When you are ready to step on the cross with Christ then you are a follower.
kgxxx10 5 days ago
Pats and Giants go to the SUPER BOWL!!
Last time they went their together was 2008 and the Giants won the Pats back then. Hmmm....it's a win/win for me! Ha ha!
ProdigalSonship 5 days ago
"For this corruptible (body), must put on incorruption, and this mortal (body), must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?'
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Indeed, THANKS BE!!
ProdigalSonship 5 days ago
tommotian,
Tom, thank you for your comments.
Well, I'd say you do a pretty good job of representing the Watchtower's opinions fairly and objectively when asked to do so! :-)
No need to "report hours" to your local Kingdom Hall though.
Just tell them you "gave at the office". That's a diplomatic thing to say.
We appreciate your efforts to be fair on the Watchtower's behalf.
All comments which seek to honestly inform so others can gain a genuine perspective on the WTS are very much welcome here.
ProdigalSonship 5 days ago
My friends,
I see that someone has listed kgxxx10's comments as "spam". I had to go to the "see all" option to view his comments.
PLEASE....DO NOT DO THIS!
It is a sin against the search for objective truth to "spam" any reasonable, charitable posts and it is manifestly unfair to not only the person who made the "spammed" comment, but also to the dialogue itself.
Let the dialogue stand on its own and let the chips fall where they may.
"Spamming" posts is not only cowardly, but also STUPID!
ProdigalSonship 5 days ago
Angela and Jim
OK, enough for today. I'll be busy tomorrow, the day after that I'll be back.
Besides, you must be given an opportunity to respond to answers submitted to you.
I could say more about it.
The two of you are making me preach AS A JW would!! regardless of be the answers right or wrong.
But you are asking me for the JW point of view, and why, so that is what I'm doing.
Maybe I ought to report hours to my local Kingdom Hall now? - Just kiddin' !
:=))
God Bless!
tommotian 5 days ago
Angela parallell scripture to 1 Cor 15:51-53 [v 52 especially]:
"the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMPET call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.", 1 Thess 4:16.
I thought this one is worth mentioning, for the trumpet is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 as well: "For the trumpet will sound ..."
tommotian 5 days ago
ProdigalSonship
Q. What about the "souls" in Rev 6:9-10, or In Rev 20:4?
A. Since they are in Heavent they are souls with spirit bodies. We are souls, human souls of flesh and blood. Those in Heaven are souls of a different nature.
Strong's Greek: "soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality. ... (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person".
tommotian 5 days ago
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@tommotian One of the problems is that the JW's misunderstand
I Cor 15:50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
If you read this in context, Paul is talking about if we focus on the things of this earth, we will never be able to focus on the things of heaven, therefore we will loose heaven. In other words Paul is not nescissarly speaking literally, more likely figuratively.
kgxxx10 5 days ago
ProdigalSonship
Q. How come the dead are unconscious "if Jesus was able to TALK to the dead when he "descended to the dead" before he himself rose?"
A. You are referring to 1 Peter 3:19, 20 which says that after Jesus was "made alive" he preached "to the imprisoned spirits" who were disobedient in the days of Noah".
The JW answer is that the spirits are the fallen angels of God who, when the flood came, returned to the spirit world but cannot come to Heaven - thus imprisoned! and debased.
tommotian 5 days ago
Thee people try and separate Christ from being the One True God in the flesh right? Well if thats the case then this book wants burning......
1988TheHitman 5 days ago
Angela
You believe in the "glorified" body ... the "change" that you believe Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:51.
I agree.
Verse 51: "we will all be changed".
Strong's Greek gives "transformed" as an alternative to "changed". But it's basically the same; a transformation from a body of flesh and blood to one that is not; a spiritual body, the nature of which is such that it can enter Heaven.
From what is perishable [fleshly nature] --> IMperishable [spirit nature]. v 53.
That's my understanding!
tommotian 5 days ago
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@tommotian I prefer to stick with scripture here: I Cor 2:9. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.
Whatever it is we can think of, God will have something even better planed for us. We can speculate, but why bother? I prefer to be suprised about these things.
kgxxx10 5 days ago
@tommotian
I do agree with you regarding 1 Cor 15:51 and "changed". I do believe that it is still called "flesh" from Job 19:26 and Christ in Lk 24:39... I believe this is flesh as Christ had when He entered the room through the locked door (Jn 20:19) and took on the form of the gardener (Jn 20:15). I also believe that it is the dead (the body from the grave) which is raised to life (Jn 5:28-29), which is how I understand there to be a "change".
Your last post made me laugh =)
fezik82 5 days ago
fezik82:
Angela,
I don't mind at all when you "butt in". LOL
I am always pleased to see you making contributions to the dialogue. I have to work today, so I will miss Tom's responses until I get back home.
With him being in Sweden, the time difference makes for some interesting "posting tag" games. Once again, Tom will be in bed by the time I get back home to read his responses and possibly make a reply. Ha ha!
It is what it is, but it does discipline one to only reply AFTER thinking longer.
ProdigalSonship 5 days ago
Correction below... not a "resurrection of the original body", I believe in the "glorified" body... the "change" that I believe Paul spoke of (1 Cor 15:51)...
fezik82 6 days ago
1
Tom,
Thank you for responding! I have to be honest.. I’m trying to understand how this is not reincarnation… not that I’m claiming that it is, just that I may not be fully understanding. I absolutely agree with you when you say that not everything that comes from the WTS is erroneous, if it were they would not attract some very honest and intelligent Christians
fezik82 6 days ago
2
(as I see they do). I know that you were there when I came to the understanding of the Resurrection of the body and you know that it was through the teachings of the Society that I began to recognize this in the Scriptures. I found this first from Job (19:26), it just ballooned from there… I started seeing it throughout the Old and New Testaments. I didn’t know what to make of it, but my understanding was already that Christ was raised in the flesh.
fezik82 6 days ago
3 I come to see that He was the ‘firstfruits from the dead’… displaying what our own resurrection will be like as Paul is clear in the last half of 1 Cor. ch. 15. You know my belief in the bodily Resurrection of Christ, I’ve explained my position (primarily based upon, though not limited to, Jn 2:19-21; Lk 24:39; Acts 13:34). I also remember your position clearly, I know that your greatest objection was that this might forfeit the sacrifice by your understanding of Heb 10:10…
fezik82 6 days ago
4
while I do understand your objection and find it valid and insightful, I do still disagree and maintain my belief that receiving His body back would not undo the sacrifice.. I feel that John 10:17 is relevant here. I felt that I needed to explain that only to justify my own belief… which is that we will be raised in our own flesh (whatever that may mean [?],
fezik82 6 days ago
5
Paul called it “a mystery… we will all be changed” (1 Cor 15:51). One of the points that I feel I can only take as a resurrection of the original body is still Mt 10:28 “fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”… this doesn’t seem to be a hypothetical claim,
fezik82 6 days ago
6
I believe that Jesus confirmed this in John 5:28-29 when He said that we will rise from our graves, some to a resurrection of life.. others to a resurrection of damnation.
Also, Acts 2:26 and the Valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1-14).
I believe that we can take Lazarus not as an example of our resurrection, but an example of God’s power over death. Martha didn’t seem to believe, she said that he had been buried for four days, that his body stunk…
fezik82 6 days ago
7 of course rigor mortus had set in within the first hours, by day four… putrefaction began. Although, I believe raising him from death is no more miraculous than creating him from nothing in the first place =). Like the resurrection of the flesh (given cremation, dismemberment, deterioration, etc.), I don’t claim to be able to comprehend it in the slightest way… I only believe that it’s true. This is really not where I meant to go, though =D… sorry about that!
fezik82 6 days ago
Tom,
I am sorry I missed you earlier, I had to work all day and I will have to work tomorrow as well. Perhaps you can answer as to the Watchtower's beliefs concerning the life of the soul in greater depth.
You mentioned earlier that they believe:
"The dead are unconscious until resurrected..So it is a belief in soul-sleep"
How does this make sense if Jesus was able to TALK to the dead when he "descended to the dead" before he himself rose?
What about the "souls" in Rev 6:9-10, or In Rev 20:4?
ProdigalSonship 6 days ago
@ProdigalSonship
I hope that you don't mind my butting in! The Society does not teach that Christ spoke during the 3 days in Hades. Of His preaching to "the spirits in prison", since they teach that the all of those deceased remained unconscious until 1918, they refer this to the fallen angels who had affairs w/women... I strongly feel that the context of 1 Peter 3:18:21 implies that they were the humans that did not survive the flood.
fezik82 6 days ago
tommotian:
Tom thanks for the info.
It was strange that they would not even go near the bodies of loved ones.
We believe that ALL stages of life and death are Sacred because of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Because Jesus was conceived, conception is Sacred; as a fetus in Mary's womb, Jesus Sanctifies that stage; as an infant, infancy is Sanctified; as a child, childhood is Sanctified; as a youth, youth is Sanctified; as an adult, adulthood is Sanctified; as he died, death itself is made Holy.
ProdigalSonship 6 days ago
Angela and Jim.
Questions answered. It's late in my country and I'm going to bed. See you later.
tommotian 6 days ago
@tommotian
Thank you, I'm leaving... I'll read more thoroughly and respond tonight.
fezik82 6 days ago
ProdigalSonship
When answering your questions I feel a sadness in my heart, for the JW couple who conducted the study with me for me to become a JW were honest, good people. I remember asking them the questions you are asking me now, and they answered them to the best of their ability.
They are dead now, they were devoted.
I believe they are in God's memory.
They died before the Internet era, I thank God for that.
It is such a very sad story.
Some of what I was taught holds water.
tommotian 6 days ago
prod actually commented on his failing English being a second language and how well his intentional mis-speaking was quite good.
If you guys can't see thorugh this idiot, you really need help.
Do a little secrete investigating..examine how he plays off himself..
What a loser!
BTW the US Conference of Catholic Bishops came up with a way to lower the number of Bishops and Priest classified as PEDOPHILES..they Redefined the age of Puberty to begin at 10 years old
BTW,
HolyRollerSpirit1 6 days ago
I saw where Draugar informed you idiots that prod and tom are actually prodtom, LMAO
He is soooo right.
I went back and looked and there is no doubt. What a clown. If you will, notice the same exact sentence structure and the same exact vernacular.
Also, upon this being said, tomo immediately began speaking like a caveman, omitting pronouns and articles..this didn't last long.
Also, the immediate asking each other for instruction.
BUSTED! ROFLMAO
SOOO TRANSPARANT
Draugar ROCKS
HolyRollerSpirit1 6 days ago
tommortian;
Tom, it is very good to see you back again. I know you have been very busy and I thank you for your comments.
I am curious about what the Watchtower teaches concerning a dead human corpus, or death in general for that matter.
Is it their belief that death is 'evil" and that a dead body is something to be avoided?
I have had a couple of related experiences with JW's in the past. This way of looking at death is VERY odd to a Christian.
It is obviously against historical Christianity.
ProdigalSonship 6 days ago
@ProdigalSonship
This is something I never encountered.
About your experience ... it seems me these JWs are not representative of their religion.
Not recognized by me as a problem.
Many JWs have their deceased loved ones cremated.
I consulted the book "Shepherd the flock of God", also called "The Elders Secret Manual", 2010 version,
and:
NOTHING about a dead human corpus being an 'evil' thing is being said.
No special rules for funerals are mentioned - I attended different ones.
tommotian 6 days ago
@tommotian Oh, look no grammar errors that seem to come and go.
CORPUS? amazing that two different individuals would use that word.
If you correct someone and disagree with someone and that someone is yourself in cognito..the masses will be thrown off..BUT NOT ALL.
Upon diligent investigation, the gig is up LMAO
HolyRollerSpirit1 6 days ago
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@HolyRollerSpirit1 Corpus is latin for body. This is what it is called. Educate yourself!
kgxxx10 6 days ago
@tommotian
I really would like the rationale of my grandpa who arranged this... but that can't happen. He had my aunt cremated, which made me wonder how the body was to rise again. I asked the witnesses at one of the studies, they told me that it is a new body. I want to know how this does not interfere with our shared belief that there is no such thing as reincarnation? Do you know how this is reconciled? Do they have a unique definition for 'reincarnation'?
fezik82 6 days ago
I'm trying to figure out whether this might actually have something to do with the soul vs. the spirit? It seems that my (Catholic) view of a soul is pretty equivalent to the WTS's view of a spirit, though... each is unique to each person.
fezik82 6 days ago
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@fezik82 Yes and no, to them the spirit is the force that animates the body. Sort of like eletricity. To us the Soul is the essence of who we are. The Soul has the ablity to will and make choices. According to the JW's when the spirit leave the body it is gone.
Cremation does not really cause me a problem. God can easily recreate for us physical bodies. Also if the body is not properly preserved, in about 1-2years there aint much left to it.
kgxxx10 6 days ago
@fezik82 spirit [1]
To the JWs, the spirit [ruach in Hebrew] is that which makes the person alive; THE SPARK OF LIFE.
"When their spirit [life; mind] departs, they [their dead bodies] return to the ground" Ps 146:4.
The person is at the resurrection given a body according to God's choosing and and is brought to life by being given back the spirit [force of life].
The JWs ALSO teach that the ones who are given a heavenly life are immediately resurrected from death and given spritit bodies.
tommotian 6 days ago
@fezik82 spirit [2]
OK, so I should say that Yes, SOME of what the JWs believe about it is pretty similar to that of your Catholic views on the subject.
Then there are parts which are NOT.
It is very complex; but they firmly believe that Jesus IS the resurrection and the life, John 11:25.
It must in all earnest be said that there are good sides to the beliefs of the JWs.
The problem rests very much with the totalitarian leadership.
The good JWs are slaves and the WTS is the slave-owner.
tommotian 6 days ago
@fezik82 resurrection [1]
They believe since your physical body is destroyed [correct of course] when you die, SOMETHING survives which is kept in God's memory [palm]. THIS contains all your memories, your personality, what really makes YOU unique.
This unique YOU is given a new body, be it an earthly one or a spiritual one, and so you know when resurrected who you are ... personlity, memories, all of it.
But, the Bible also says that the soul, nefesch, dies ... this is difficult.
tommotian 6 days ago
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tommotian 6 days ago
@fezik82 resurrection [2]
From my description you can see that they do not believe in reincarnation. That is a Hindu concept. At your resurrection, "God gives it [the unique YOU which [who?] was resting in God's palm] a body, just as it has pleased him", 1 Cor 15:38 NWT.
This makes sense to me! The JWs aren't wrong on all counts.
Do you see what I mean, do I make myself understood?
tommotian 6 days ago
@ProdigalSonship
The JW opinion about what death is:
The dead are unconscious until resurrected, Eccl 9:5,10; John 11:11-14.
So it is a belief in soul-sleep, but I know some JWs think differently about this.
They think some are resurrected to a life on Paradise Earth, Matt 5:5 [clearly a misunderstanding what Jesus is saying here].
And that only the 144 000 are resurrected to life in Heaven as co-rulers with Jesus, Rev 7:4-8; Rev 14:1-5.
This is but a summary for you.
Hope this helps!
tommotian 6 days ago
You people out there are told if everyone in a group doesn’t believe EXACTLY the same thing, that’s a lack of unity, but Col 3:14 says LOVE "is a perfect bond of unity", NOT the robotic sameness the WTS is requiring of you!
Christ's yoke is easy and his burden light, Matt 11:30, but being a Jehovah’s Witness is actually a very heavy yoke. Read Romans 14 and John 8:32 thoughtfully about the Christian freedom ALL OF US, including JWs and "interested ones", are supposed to enjoy.
Am I right?
tommotian 1 week ago
Sorry, I mean "REGARDLESS" - my misspelling there.
tommotian 1 week ago
dangerman808
Dear fellow,
I must caution you. I was a JW for decades. When they speak of "the truth", they without exception refer to the teachings of the WTS REGARDLELL OF them being true or not, and if you do NOT agree on a certain teaching OF THE WTS and say so, you will WITHOUT FAIL be disfellowshipped.
This is very bad because it means:
1) Putting the words of the WTS above Jesus & the apostles,
2) Ignoring that Jeus IS! "the truth", JOHN 14:6.
It dosn't say the WTS is! NO! NO!
tommotian 1 week ago
121 people are JW....... no lie either
adzwild 1 week ago
dangerman808"
You say here:
"a person coming to just learn the truth will hate all other religious practices and will anger at such events like a funeral or a wedding in another religion."
I assume you meant to say, "A person coming to just learn what they BELIEVE to be the truth will hate all other religious practices."
Yes, in that case, it can be said that, "Hell hath no fury like a new convert".
However, people often "hate" what they do not understand, they just "think" they understand it.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship everybody has a certain extent of how they understand things. JW's do about the world and other religions and vise verca. most people dont usually accept all religions and tend to favor one to not want to learn about another. yes they could be enemies and that is how some JW's view it and some view company as acceptable, but dont apply cultures or practices while with each other just as a person going to another religious event. its tolerated not life changing.
dangerman808 5 days ago
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dangerman808:
Friend, you say here:
"the spirituality of a newly baptized or new bible studier can be weak as to be disgusted with the practices of other religions."
This concept of "being disgusted with the practices of other religions" is VERY odd nowadays.
This is not a "reasoned" approach at all, it is quite "cultish" reasoning in fact.
One must FIRST try to understand the "objective" history of each religion by starting at the "genesis" of the religion and the "culture" of its beginnings.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship ah i see. well i just tried to get my word out to compare to yours. i just used the example of my auntie and her new found hatred of other religions. i wont try to complain more because the next answer would be favoring one side and not taking in consideration of wat u have said. thank you for enlightening me
dangerman808 5 days ago
dangerman808:
My friend,
You say here:
"to all people wishing to conflict with me i want to point out that i am a mere boy and still have to research on both sides of a discussion."
This seems to me to be an honest answer and has a welcome tone of sincere humility about it which is very seldom seen. You are welcome here.
An honest, enquiring mind is very healthy. It is one which is open to new ideas and sound reason. There is nothing to fear in conflict when one is reasonable and seeks truth.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
to all people wishing to conflict with me i want to point out that i am a mere boy and still have to research on both sides of a discussion. do not think of me as a man coming to know everything, but as a person still fresh in the world and open minded and not favoring one subject over another. i try not be bias as some of ur answers to me might be
dangerman808 1 week ago
fezik82:
Angela,
I remember two instances when a family member went to just a funeral home, not the church, to attend the "wake" of a deceased family member.
In fact, at the formal "service" part of the wake itself, they left the room and this was being held in the funeral home! How very odd.
When looking at the open casket and the corpus contained inside, one JW was heard as saying it was "evil" and refused even to go near it.
These were the bodies of her own father and favorite aunt!
Bizarre!
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
dangerman808:
Friend,
I assume when you say "they" and "them", that you mean JW's.
You say here:
"they continue to seek their kingdom first then other things. protecting spirituality is a must for them because it's their relationship to god."
This is a curious statement. Cannot the "spirituality" of a JW be "protected" by God himself even if the JW happens to attend a family event?
Is there a problem with the "spirituality" of a JW that it cannot withstand merely attending a family event?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship u have a general idea of a non attending JW, but why should it be like as the law to attend events.let me provide an illustration. the spirituality of a newly baptized or new bible studier can be weak as to be disgusted with the practices of other religions. a person coming to just learn the truth will hate all other religious practices and will anger at such events like a funeral or a wedding in another religion.as time passes they learn to tolerate such things
dangerman808 1 week ago
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dangerman808:
You say here:
"yes u have an opinion, but why is it necessary for them to go? sure u see the loved one and maybe unite the family, but u enforce this attendance like it's a sin to not attend."
I have no wish to force anyone.
As said before, the issue to me is the REASON they choose NOT to go REASONABLE?
I attend these events out of solidarity, love and respect for the individual dignity of family members, not necessarily because I have a "solidarity" with the events themselves.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
dangerman808:
Friend,
You say here:
"u do not get DF'd for going to such events, but practicing sin without repentance. if u go to certain events totally rely or ur decision not someone saying u gotta go"
I have heard that a number of JW's do get disfellowshipped for just going into a church or synagogue. It is my understanding that it is illicit for them to merely cross the threshold of the door of a church.
This sounds somewhat like a superstitious mindset to me.
Is my perspective wrong here?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
"It is my understanding that it is illicit for them to merely cross the threshold of the door of a church."
It is not. It depends on why you do so. If you PARTICIPATE in a religious ceremony in the church, that is forbidden.
Let's assume you as a JW are on a vacation. You are in a group of people travelling somewhere. The group out of curiosity wishes to visit [and enter] a church of a denomination foreign to them, just to see what it looks like.
As a JW you could do that.
tommotian 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship well that is most likely not the cause. if u look into peoples' personal affairs as 1 thess 4:11 not to do then u will know what problems people have. just look into their situations and a lot more things could be covered. u most likely dont know their mentality and thoughts to make them do actions that could get them DF'd. again i say u can look into their personal affairs and know why people get DF'd
dangerman808 1 week ago
dangerman808
May I ask you, just to understand your answers better: Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian im not a JW. they bother me too much. i simply take in their knowledge just to undetstand them and not to apply to myself
dangerman808 1 week ago
dangerman808:
Perhaps you think that merely attending a family affair somehow puts your "stamp of approval" of the goings on?
I have attended all manner of meetings, the primary purpose of which I was in essential disagreement.
Just because one attends a family function to celebrate or grieve as a family, does not mean that one is in fact in full agreement with what was said or done.
One may very reasonably attend a family function to show "family solidarity" without fully "participating" in it.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
dangerman808:
My friend,
Thank you for your comments.
You say here:
"people make excuses to not go to events while JW's have reasons not to go."
It is perfectly fine for people to have reasons for not attending events. I myself have reasons for not attending events.
But, is the "reason" for not attending a family event or celebration "reasonable"?
I am curious, are you as a JW afraid to attend a family event out of superstition or fear of "catching" something or fear of being dis-fellowshipped?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship first of all i want to state that different JW's i have come to know have different spiritual levels and consciences and these events at different religious places could either sicken them, anger them, or damage their spirituality. as u know people make personal choices whether to go or not. u do not get DF'd for going to such events, but practicing sin without repentance. if u go to certain events totally rely or ur decision not someone saying u gotta go
dangerman808 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship they continue to seek their kingdom first then other things. protecting spirituality is a must for them because it's their relationship to god. i have come to know the thinking of us ''worldly people of the nations'' and the JW's perspective. if u try to prove something u need 2 parts of a discussion and it seems that a lot of people dont consider their point of view. i wish to continue this talk to try and enlighten u and vice-versa.
dangerman808 1 week ago
bunch of apostates and i dont see any proof only talk. cmon u guys getting pissed cuz u dont like that they're preaching. i bet all of the itchers and complainers dont even look into wat they teach and only go off of wat other bitchers and complainers say. also wrong translation? i didnt see him explain how it's wrong i bet he's a bitcher too because he dont like the bible, plus he was probably comparing english to greek so no wonder they look different. bitchers
dangerman808 1 week ago
fexik82:
Angela,
It is very good to see you back, you have been sorely missed here as of late!
I asked those reading the dialogue over a week ago to tell us of any instances they may have experienced when they knew a JW who refused to go to a Wedding, Baptism or Funeral because it happened to occur in a "church" or "synagogue", as opposed to a Kingdom Hall.
I have seen this before when a JW was afraid to attend the Weddings and Funerals of family members!!
Have this happened to you also Angela?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
Thanks! I've missed you guys, as well!
It's odd for me, my grandparents refused to go to most of our bigger events. When we did see them, they would pin us down for conversion. My sister (somewhat out of fear of rejection & somewhat out of bitterness, I believe) did not invite them to her wedding, so they made a point by showing up to mine. This was my first event that they attended, it was actually pleasant... but then everything went back to normal =(
fezik82 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
I maybe should have pointed out, too, that my sister did have a very small wedding. There were maybe 15-20 people from each side (friends included).
fezik82 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship did u know that ppl have a conscience and can make choices? no law says that not attending a funeral or wedding at a church or synagogue is illegal. do u know that people make excuses to not go to events while JW's have reasons not to go. thats just like a communist encouraging democracy. u dont mix want u know will conflict like that. religions r not to mix.false religions mix with countries and war each. like catholics fighting catholics and each praying to the same god to win
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 What reasons would a JW have not to go to another church? Why would you not go to a wedding if invited or a funeral? Other then prior commitments or family reason what could be a valid reason to not attend?
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 yes u have an opinion, but why is it necessary for them to go? sure u see the loved one and maybe unite the family, but u enforce this attendance like it's a sin to not attend. they believe in a resurrection and that in their new system the ''former things will have passed away'' including death or sickness. mourning or continuously grieving will damage u as a person emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually. it's a personal choice to go or not. the choice s yours.
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 Ok... the reason to attend a wedding would be to show your support and approval of the bond. The reason to attend a funeral is to help support those who are left behind. Grieving the lose of someone close is normal and a natural part of the process, to ignore this is wrong. Assisting those who are left behind is also good. So to miss this important events shows a lack of wishing to be involved in the community.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@dangerman808 cont... From what I gather, they have no problem attending these same events if they are held at a KH? Does this sound right?
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 then again it is still a personal decision. it's just more in favor of surroundings and atmosphere of people there because they all have same teachings and beliefs. nothing wrong with non JW's to attend JW events. 2004 16 mil people attended the JW memorial and 10mil werent baptized. i attended JW events such as certain conventions and baptisms. u need to understand that people and make choices and not everybody is the same. u linger in ur own beliefs and arent open minded
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 I've been to a KH event, and talked to them a lot. In general most are good people seeking God in the best way they know how.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 i know that if they accept their teachings that they are very good people. i love the company of them and i like to widen my association to understand people more. i am not a hater of religions or race. i do not favor. i answer according to statements using my knowledge
dangerman808 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 yes. u r partially right. from wat i read and observe u always imply that people have to go and i will always answer that it is a personal decision to go to events JW or non JW. the thing u lack to understand is purpose and motive. think about those to things because that affects action. its not illegal not to go to such events. 100% JW's care about family and u only have conflict with the people who dont go. tell me wat is ur purpose and motive plz
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 Of course it is a personal decision, I will not deny this. However I believe that the WTS seriously frowns on attending events at other churches.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 and that is where u lack the research. i can see u probably are a grown man or woman and have come to know many people and certain JW's. i have responded to other conflicts and said why other JW's accept these events and why others dont. in time as they learn in their religon they learn to accept certain things and tolerate certain things. also we all sin and have fits of anger and some JW's are wet behind the ears and just hate other religions. again as they learn they accept
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 This might be true... they have a high turnover rate from what I understand. Also I have read much of their literature and books, and spoken to many over the last few years, so I am not speaking out of ignorance.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 srry if i have not gotten ur point of the discussion, but i hope in the future we both come to know the true accurate knowledge of the JW's
dangerman808 5 days ago
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@dangerman808
"i hope in the future we both come to know the true accurate knowledge of the JW's".
I do hope that you will very soon come to know that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the SOLE source of religious truth, nor do they have the monopoly on Christianity.
Christianity is not an Organization.
Jesus Christ IS! the truth, John 14:6.
It doesn't say the Watchtower Society is.
This is so true that even a child would understand it.
Please read my two posts on being a footstep follower!
tommotian 5 days ago
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@dangerman808 Remember I have read much of thier literature, and talked with many. Spent many weeks about 2 years ago talking with members from my local KH on my porch. Been to the KH. I prefer to speak with active members, rather then those who have left. You don't judge and army by it's deserters, but by it's loyal troops. Many times ex members have axes to grind.
kgxxx10 5 days ago
@kgxxx10 they dont. they frown on the religion hosting the event. they are taught not to hate but to pray for enemies and only hate actions. they dont frown upon people just the ''false religion'' as they put it
dangerman808 5 days ago
@dangerman808
"in their new system the ''former things will have passed away'' including death or sickness"
That would be a great response if not for the fact that Jw's do still hold funerals for deceased witnesses. I was at my aunt's.
fezik82 1 week ago
I'm sorry, I believe that the witnesses call these "memorial services"?
fezik82 1 week ago
@fezik82 they call it watever they want.
dangerman808 1 week ago
@fezik82
You are correct. A funeral is in the JW arrangement things mostly called a "memorial service".
tommotian 1 week ago
@fezik82 this is another thing in which i would like to clarify.let me point out that no matter who u r a close loved one's death will cause u to feel sad and or to mourn the dead one. the thing is to not linger in that state of sorrow or sadness and i said earlier it will affect u. there is nothing wrong with mourning if thats wat u want. they provide scriptures or publications to ease the pain, but the spirituality of the person will tell if they are truly whole souled to their god
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 The witnesses do not believe in an eternal soul. The dead cease to exist until God choose to perhaps resurrect them if they have been good enough.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 they believe in not going to hell or heaven, but that the dead r ''sleeping'' in their resurrection. before their Armageddon people who were killed before will be resurrection. only the people destroyed in their armageddon will not be resurrected and i also have an answer explaining why. the wages for sin is death and through death u have been cleared of ur sin is wat they believe
dangerman808 1 week ago
@dangerman808 If you press them they will admit that those who are dead don't exist anymore. They believe in heaven for the anointed class. However there lack of believe in hell always makes me wonder, Our Lord talked more about Hell then he did about Heaven. Seems kind of funny to talk a lot about something that is not real!
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 i honestly dont have a bible for reasons of finding conflicts in different religions and myself to become stumbled on sides of a subject. would u plz enlighten me upon your lord's meaning of hell? all i know from JW literature is that to them hell isnt real. i honestly have come to be stumbeld on this and more research and time is required. the egyptians also believed in a different afterlife and also the vikings and many others and i only heard about sumting like hell 1 time
dangerman808 5 days ago
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@dangerman808 Basically we have one choose to make in this life. God or not God. If we choose God we get to spend eternity with him. If we choose not God we get to spend eternity away from him. We are made for God, only in him can we find completness, therefore eternity without God is HELL. Imagine forever knowing the peace, beauty, etc you gave up because you wanted something now. In scripture Hell is talked about as being pain, fire, etc, because this is the only way we can understand it. ...
kgxxx10 5 days ago
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@dangerman808 cont. We have no concept of what it is like to live as a spirit, and how a spirit feels. We can get some idea from our earthly existance. However heaven and hell are just one moment, that never ends. Even in sleep we get some rest.
You say that many cultures have beleive in an afterlife, yet scripture does not take much in the way to correct this view if it is wrong. It does however continue to hammer in the unity of God, and his Oneness. It hammers in that our actions have ....
kgxxx10 5 days ago
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@dangerman808 cont conciquences, but only in a few verses if pushed can you come up with the concept that there is nothing after death.
In revelation we see heaven, and we see people so many that they can't be numbered! We don't see just a few, or 144,000 we see billions.
Don't be mislead by the JW's Heaven and Hell are very real. Otherwise Our Lord would not have warned us, Matt 10:28. And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: ....
kgxxx10 5 days ago
@kgxxx10
I don't mean to post and bail, but I only have a minute... they believe that the spirits of the 'great crowd' are reserved unconscious until life on Paradise Earth. Since 1934, they claim that 1918 marked the time of Christ's Kingship... the spirits of the anointed now go directly to heaven upon death.
fezik82 1 week ago
@fezik82 Thanks for the correction. I have trouble wrapping my mind around exactly what they believe in this area.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
Friends,
Actually, I would like your opinions on a series I recently watched online at pbs.org. It is found there under the video section for a famous program called NOVA. The videos are done by a scientist named Brian Greene. They are based on his best selling book called, "The Fabric of the Cosmos". They are done VERY well and there are right now four different videos to be seen at pbs.org on NOVA called:
1. What is Space
2. The Illusion of Time
3. Quantum Leap
4. Universe or Multiverse?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
It's late in my country and I'm going to bed. [my favorite phrase]
tommotian 1 week ago
tommotian &kgxxx10:
Tom and Rich,
If you guys are gonna get into mathematics beyond simple arithmetic here, then I am totally lost! LOL
I can only try to understand Quantum Mechanics and Theory as concepts or constructs. Sadly, I have a rather poor background in "higher math" and so you guys will very rapidly be "leaving me in the dust" if you delve deeply into the "math" aspect of it all. Ha ha!
Cut a poor guy some slack here....PLEASE!
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
You have one up on me, I missed the math aspect. =) This topic is interesting to me, but I am lost in the details!
fezik82 1 week ago
DraugarX & kgxxx10:
My friends,
I thank you for moving your dialogue to another channel called "Is the Bible true", by the channel owner who is known as "bubbafuss".
I am sure we all wish you well in your discussions.
Thankfully, this affords others an opportunity to make comments about issues having to do with the Watchtower's Bible, or Watchtower and JW issues in general.
I invite all truly interested in a rational, charitable dialogue to make contributions to this particular subject material.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
Prod, spacetime [1]
What you are asking me about is Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity. It describes how spacetime changes shape in the presence of matter. The greater the mass, the more the distortion, or CURVATURE in the universe. This curvature of spacetime creates attraction between all the masses in the universe. That attraction is the GRAVITATIONAL FORCE. I don’t know if I am making myself understood … what one must understand is the importance of mass; baryonic matter.
tommotian 1 week ago
Prod, spacetime [2]
The mass is what creates the curvature, and this curvature creates gravity! If we have a very strong gravitational field, such as near a black hole, the curvature of space near it is very strong. – The James Webb telescope will be looking for proof of this. Also, time slows down in the presence of matter. The greater the concentration of matter, the slower clocks tick. In summary: Given a high concentration of matter, space near it is curved and time slows down.
tommotian 1 week ago
Prod, spacetime [3]
Both physical space and time itself is affected, therefore is spoken of as one unit only and is called SPACETIME. Space AND time is combined into a single continuum called spacetime. There is much more to be said about time itself … such as, it can be proved mathematically that you would not experience this as extra years, or even more, added to your life-span were you near a very large lump of matter – no! But to ME, far away from you, it would seem that way.
tommotian 1 week ago
Prod, spacetime [4]
This is very hard to understand. Matter is never destroyed, correct. With one exception maybe. We don’t know the fate of matter falling into a black hole. The “hole” is black because not even light can escape from it. The point in it where mass disappears due to the immense gravity is called the SINGULARITY. We know it exists. But we will never know what happens there.
I would be very happy to get to know from God why he did all this the way he did it!!
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian Matter falling into a black hole is not destroyed. However it is out of touch with the universe. Hawkings predicted that black holes would evaporate, which actually fits with quantum theory.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kgxxx10
I said "maybe".
You said: "Matter falling into a black hole is not destroyed."
That is a very definite statement. We do NOT know. It's fate is UNKNOWN.
What you said about the quantum theory and the evaporating of black holes, however, is correct.
The energy of the black hole is transmitted to outside the event horizon as gravitational radiation to replace the energy taken away by an escaping particle that was once a virtual particle. I can explanin more about it if you like.
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian I took some high energy physics courses in college, and a lot on semiconductor physics, however I am really out of date on all this. By definition we can never know what happens in a black hole. Since there is no way to get any information out of it.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10
Did he predict that all black holes would evaporate, or just the micro black holes? Michio Kaku (spelling?) has said that finding out which came first, the galaxy or the black holes, is like the chicken or the egg question.. I thought that this suggested that black holes are possibly older than the entire galaxy. I just assumed that they must form something that we need to survive, maybe to remain in our position...am I in lala land? Do they have benefits, or are just there?
fezik82 1 week ago
Let me rephrase my last question... I know that black holes have their downside, but is there an upside? Do they benefit us?
fezik82 1 week ago
@fezik82 I'm not sure about the current theories on this. Or if there is an upper limit. My thoughts would say that the more massive the black hole, the slower the evaporation would be. There would have been some very massive black holes formed in the first few milliseconds of the universe when the densities where really high.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 virtual particle, cont'd.
Pairs of virtual particles spontaneously appear and disappear so quickly that they do not violate any known laws of nature. The tidal forces very near a black hole is so strong that it tears apart two virtual particles that appears there just before they destroy each other. At least one of them now having used up gravitational energy to make them real disappears into the black hole. This emittance of gravitat. energy from the black hole is the evaporation!
tommotian 1 week ago
@tommotian
You have gone so far above my head, I'll go back to 'silent visitor' =D God Bless!
fezik82 1 week ago
@fezik82 Quantum mechanics and relativity theory can really mess with your head. :-)
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10
I agree, my husband is very knowledgeable in that area... I don't absorb it so well. One of these days, maybe!
fezik82 1 week ago
tommotian:
Tom,
I know you may not want to distract the dialogue even further to discuss this topic of "Spacetime", but perhaps it would be of some benefit in so far as it clearly seems to suggest that nothing and NO ONE is ever "definitively lost" in the Cosmos, but rather, matter just "changes" into other forms and "Spacetime" itself CAN be seen as having not so much a "past" or a "future", but an eternal PRESENT, depending on the "perspective".
Tom, I leave the decision up to you my friend.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship
Hi prod. Your questions will be answered in a few posts, but very much is needed to in-depth understand. However, I try to explain some basic concepts.
tommotian 1 week ago
kgxxx10:
Rich,
Right about now would be a good time for Tom to put on his Astronomer's hat to talk to us about the "space-time continuum", or "Spacetime".
It has been shown that OUR "time", as such, is an illusion.
All "times" exist in "space". Because of this, ultimately, there is no such thing as past or future, ONLY the "present". It is a matter of "perspective" so far as "space time" is concerned.
Historical Christianity has often talked of God as being "outside" of what we know as "time".
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship Yes it boggles the mind when we contemplate this. We are never fully ourselves, since we exist over a series of nows. God exists in the eternal NOW, for God past,present and future are the same to him. This is also why he is unchanging, because he does not experience time. We can see this in Rev, where it talks about the Lamb slain from the foundation of the universe.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 Let me give you a little bit of ACTUAL history. Jews could not recant their faith and race and be turned loose by the Nazis..LOL Close to the dumbest thing you have ever said
We exist over a series of nows and God exists in the eternal now..Now thats the dumbest thing you have said,
Sufficient evidence to convist? How much evidence did the Papacy need to prove you a WITCH? What happened, did they turn someone into a NEWT!
Defending a Heretic ws Heresy!
You should stay here,
DraugarX 1 week ago
@DraugarX It is not my saying about God. I love the way you bring up side issues.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
@kgxxx10 Lets move this to "Is the Bible True?"
Type it at the top in the youtube search.
Then prodtom can talk to himself, ROFL
If you dont come, I will understand..the vid is by bubbastuff or something like that.
See ya?
DraugarX 1 week ago
@DraugarX Is this the one interviewing college students?
kgxxx10 1 week ago
tommotian:
Tom,
I thank you for your admonitions to us all.
You have been right from the very beginning of course. I must apologize for having lent a hand in engaging in a dialogue which is so far from the stated purpose of this particular video that it has become one massively huge NON SEQUITUR!
Since both DraugarX and kgxxx10 are very willing to move their discussion to another public video on youtube, then I am sure it is best for all concerned that they do so.
One may hope it will be soon.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
@ProdigalSonship If he gives me a video to move to or wishes to take this private I have no problem with that. I don't have the time to search for a appropriate video.
kgxxx10 1 week ago
tommotian:
Tom,
Take a look at two quotes from two nights ago from both DraugarX and kgxxx10:
"I would be happy to discuss this somewhere else. PM me with a different site. I believe what we have to say should be heard/read. BOTH SIDES." DraugarX
And then kgxxx10"s response:
"@DraugarX Choose a video or via PM, it does not matter to me. Just let me know."
Obviously, both are WILLING to MOVE their dialogue to a DIFFERENT youtube site so this particular channel can RESUME its stated purpose.
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
Friends,
What our friend DraugarX seems to be oddly terrified to say is that he is an Atheist, he does not believe there is a God. This is why he will not give definitive answers as to his belief in a God; just WHY he believes in a God; and just HOW he came to believe in a God.
How very BIZARRE.
If he DOES NOT believe there is a God, then he should have the courage HERE to state it openly. If he DOES believe there is a God, then he also should be courageous and open about it.
Why be evasive?
ProdigalSonship 1 week ago
Friends,
Let's look at two "quotes" here.
One was written a VERY long time ago and the other was written JUST two nights ago by DraugarX . The quotes exhibit FUNDAMENTALLY different philosophies about life