The Problem China and Africa 3

[siyuweinisi]

Why you guys talk about Dlai here? The point is the development of Africa.

[saulpaulus]

@siyuweinisi I guess the point is that if China does not treat minorities within its own empire well, why should anyone expect that it will be kinder to Africans?

[siyuweinisi]

@saulpaulus I guess the point why africa is so poor because of the triangular trade (or you donnt know the triangular trade?). I donnt except africa trust china. Maybe we chinese could be helpful. yeah, there are problems in china. Also there were the same problems in USA even 50 years ago. Ironically, It is shameful that most of the aboriginals (the Indians) of america were killed by ...(who? i donnt know)...

[saulpaulus]

@siyuweinisi Very familiar w/ the triangular trade which took place nearly three centuries ago and the oppression of Native Americans which took place over 100 years ago. Chinese mistreatment of minorities is ongoing today.

[siyuweinisi]

@saulpaulus But during the past 350 years, the africa are mainly doing business with the west (still now). We are just starting to do business recently. We want to share a bright future with africa indeed. The situation in china is not good but not horrible. we need time to make a progress.

[saulpaulus]

@siyuweinisi Fair enough. China's great challenge is to hopefully transition into a free society where equal treatment is the rule. If China is to progress, it has to resolve this.

[53Africa]

Improving nonstop burst pipe in Moscow winter, is one of the funniest shows you`re ever likely to see the major differences in the Tanzania Zambia Railways or similarity Siberian & India Indian copy railway.

[fsami18]

why the video is called 'the problem'!!!!

[Amberlysdt]

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Nice. Nice. Nice.

[saulpaulus]

Thank you.

[sakpase333]

While white westerners were busy hating blacks in the 50s, the chinese were busy loving these people and now the chinese are getting bashed for their actions? Why? No European or American can say anything negative about China's love for Africa, Period. Westerners are in deep DUDU. Why? Because Africa will want nothing to do with westerners and will work with only Iranians and asian b/c those are the people they trust, not westerners, can you blame them?

[saulpaulus]

In the 1950s, China was busy trying to destroy the ancient cultures of the Tibetan and Uighur peoples while Western powers were preparing the emerging nations of Africa for freedom. Of course, I understand that "freedom" is a rather strange concept to the Chinese. They have never really known it themselves so they could hardly be expected to promote it for others.

[sguardian870]

freedom what freedom and good has the west done saulpaulus be honest does it look like africa is better than it was 60 yearss ago everything was taken from us even our history was destroyed and lied about now even african believe they were in trees. The west has brought us pain and hurt and ur comfort 2day is from the blood of many in the past and today look at the niger delta look at sudan nothing is being done yet they chase after the chinese

[saulpaulus]

Those African nations that have followed the course of democracy are better off for it. Africa's problems may be partly due to colonialism but they are also due to the failure to reject traditions like female genital mutilation and polygamy. The problems in Sudan cannot be solved as long as China prevents effective intervention.

[Entropy137]

And what does female genital mutilation and polygamy have to do with economics? Btw, polygamy sounds pro freedom to me.

[saulpaulus]

Both of these things are aimed at the subjugation of women and developmental experts all say that there is a positive correlation between female status in society and economic growth. No woman living in such a society would agree that polygamy sounds like freedom.

[Entropy137]

It still seems to me that woman's status is a social issue, not an economic one. How was america's industries pre 60s? I believe you that there is a positive correlation, but I'm guessing not a very high one. Polygamy is only anti-freedom when men can buy women from their fathers. Polygamy when consentual on the other hand, is about choice and thus freedom.

[saulpaulus]

The status of women is social and economic. An essential element requisite for any primitive society hoping to grow out of poverty is the granting of equal rights to women. America prior to 60s was already a developed society. The status of women certainly improved in the wake of the 1960s Civil Rights movement. Don't know whether there is a positive correlation but our economy now is about 20-30X what it was in 1960. Polygamy may seem like freedom to the polygamist, but hardly to his wives.

[h1br1dthe0ri3]

@saulpaulus correlation does not imply causality. You claim 20-30x more NOW in 2009-2010. Yet there's almost a 50 year gap in many events that attribute (dotcom boom, communications technology, green revolution)

As for polygamy, if it's simply a matter of consent between adults, there isn't an issue.

[saulpaulus]

@h1br1dthe0ri3 Any reasonable study of human development will make clear the positive correlation between women's rights and progress. You cannot habitually mistreat half of a society's members and expect that society to progress as well as another society where that does not happen. And where in the world do you find polygamy that is a matter of consent between adults? In many cases, the "woman" is sold when she is barely at puberty, sometimes even before.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Then what happen to Africa geopolitics right now after they learned ideas from the west? Did they improved? 

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell African mistreatment of women esp polygamy and genital mutilation is not something learned from the West. There have been harmful legacies from the colonial period, but those are not among them.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus You brought something that is solely African. But I sense that you used it to drag China in. What you want to prove in the end, China encourage the custom?

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell If you look at my entire comments, I was discussing these African cultural issues in a context. You can draw whatever conclusions you want from that.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus This is what I say, the two customs is solely in Africa. So why you comment in the beginning in the place where everyone discussing CHINA'S INVESTMENT IN AFRICA? Be it a political or economical controversy, we are not talking about African culture or dark history here, if you remember.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell These are not solely issues in Africa and my comments on these issues have a specific context. You should read through the whole thread before commenting.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus To be frank, I do hope that your research is correct because after-all, Africa did have these kind of Medieval-like punishment. But time changes, so we might never know what will happen. And personally, I don't want to speculate further since I myself, is not an expert in society research.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell African mistreatment of women esp polygamy and genital mutilation is not something learned from the West. There have been harmful legacies from the colonial period, but those are not among them.

[ChineseSlaves]

@saulpaulus most of the chinese are poorer than africans. how can they come to aid people who are richer than them? it's really ridiculous. i guess most africans don't know there are still lotta Chinese slaves in 2010.

[saulpaulus]

@ChineseSlaves There are many poor Chinese, but I would not agree that most Chinese are poorer than Africans. By many markers, Africans are the poorest people in the world. And, of course, there is still slavery in Africa as well.

[ChineseSlaves]

@saulpaulus well, one third of the Chinese are living in extreme poverty, even worse than many Sub-saharan countries. And most of the african countries establish democracy and prohibit restrictions on freedom, whereas those poor Chinese people got nothing but have been suffering from regime, extremely restricted freedom, starvation and massacre over time.

[saulpaulus]

@ChineseSlaves I don't doubt that a great many Chinese are living in extreme poverty, but I do question the notion that they are poorer than the people of sub-Saharan Africa. And, while democracy has advanced in Africa, it is hardly the case that most Africans live in freedom.

[bollocks2who]

@saulpaulus Ummm...that's not true! Slavery in africa may exist but it is illegal! It also exists in the united states an europe in form of pimping and other terrible things.

[saulpaulus]

@bollocks2who Wasn't necessarily referring to slavery, but since you raised the issue....slavery is officially banned in Africa but is nodded and winked at and exists on a far more massive scale and is far more inhumane than anything you are likely to find in America.

[bollocks2who]

@saulpaulus Yeah. At least after a long while, Africa is actually beginning to develop. I went to west Africa, it has greatly improved. Nigeria, they are building roads now and tall building, it was so beautiful. In Ghana, they have good health plan for their people now. They now care about each other. The president of Ivory Coast, lost his re-election and refused to step down, other african leaders are threatening him with military strike which is good. They need democracy. They need to change.

[saulpaulus]

@bollocks2who By all accounts, Ghana is one of the more hopeful places on the continent. Africans need to change and Westerners need to help them anyway they can.

[bollocks2who]

@saulpaulus Yeah, they need to develop even faster now. Now, African countries have launched about 4 satellites. At least it's a start.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Wow, are you lying to yourself there? That's one of the worst excuse I ever seen. China may not a real democracy example but at least they don't try to invade the whole Asia as the western hypocrites once feared. About the Tibetan and Uighur matter, it's better you make your research in detail before you comment. Or your assumption can be shatter if one proof of contradiction surface.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell Wow, no I am not lying to myself or anyone else. So your standard of morality for China is that it not invade the rest of Asia? Wow, that's setting the bar pretty low! And, wow, I have researched the Tibet and Uighur matters very carefully and know just how badly China has mistreated the indigenous populations there.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus So you're saying my country especially, has became China's territory? Well, you have proved yourself to be a good excuse-maker.

Done your research? Nice work, unfortunately not enough. I may not have details but I don't speculate the outcome of both Tibet and Uighur. I may be wrong but the so-called research may came from Cultural Revolution data, and WE ALL know how terrible it is.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell Actually my information comes from detailed news reports as well as statements from Tibetan and Uighur indigenous people themselves. Nothing whatever to do with the Cultural Revolution which happened ages ago. And what is your country BTW?

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Free Tibet and Free Uighur? No thanks, buddy. I seriously NEVER trust a political movement with their own agenda which we might never know it's good or bad, neither do I truly believe the state media of China as a whole. Both of them are in constant conflict with China unfortunately, truth is the first casualty of war.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell Every political movement has its own agenda. Without an agenda, it wouldnt be a movement. Gandhi had a political agenda. So did Dr. King. So did Mr. Mandela. Are you dismissing them as well?

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus At least Gandhi, Dr. King and Mr Mandela not funded by some corporate banking or C.I.A. kingpin terrorists. There are some reports said that Free Tibet and Free Uighur movement are funded by American and western taxpayers money which unfortunately, it's a luxury that the majority average citizens can't afford any longer.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell Those "reports"likely have their origin in the PRC or sources sympathetic to it. Don't believe it for a minute and even if it were true fact that US or others might support a movement doesnt mean it isnt valid.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus O.K. Then where their money came from then?

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell First, who says they have very much money? Second, why should I believe that any money they do have is from any where but their own people who support them?

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Then why they got a piece of land in India and their can travel around the world? And if that movement is supported by government, that means it's tax payers' money is involve. Unfortunately right now that's a luxury that most average citizens can never afford.

By the way, smarty. Show some courtesy and answer the question.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell BTW smarty document your "facts", don't just make allegations. If you refer to the Dalai Lama, he is a world renowned religious leader with supporters all over the world and among his people. He doesnt need any govt support. If you have proof that he is getting US govt support, show it.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Answer the question, smart-ass. Don't try making excuses for the sake to derail the argument. I'll only show you the proof when you answer question.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell I have given answers. They are simply not the ones you want to hear and you have offered no proof of your assertions. BTW, I do not insist that people agree w/ me on these threads. I do insist that they maintain a civil tone. If you cannot do that, I'll have to block you.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus That's right, you gave your answer for not giving me a website or any links for my research. I willing to be proved wrong if there's another sources that can do so. Well, an answer without a real answer so, no deal.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell The Dalai Lama's worldwide support & celebrity are rather well known. I haven't provided a link, but evidence of his popular support in Tibet & elsewhere shouldnt be hard to find. You are the one who made the claim that the Free Tibet & Uighur movements were supported w/ $ from the West.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus I have some doubt here. Even with worldwide support, it still doesn't make sense that why they still can own land and still can travel to meet leaders. Mind you, those aren't cheap travels.

And regarding my research, try go to Webster Tarpley. 100% or not, he's the best bet in the time when history is wrote by only western hypocrites.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell Compare the Dalai Lama to the Pope. The Pope travels a lot, doesnt he? And the RC church may be the biggest landowner in the world.

Part of your problem is bias. Everything you disagree with is written by "western hypocrites". Maybe they arent hypocrites. Maybe they are just writing things you dont want to hear. Do you have a link to Tarpley's writings?

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Oh my god, Pope is completely different from that homeless Dalai Lama. Pope existed for centuries and they are recognized religious and political head of Catholics in Vatican long before Dalai Lama's misery back in 50's. One very different thing is that Pope and the Vatican didn't revolt even in the time when they're controlled by the real Italian ruler.

Regarding Webster Tarpley, go and search his C.I.A. monk in RT and the C.I.A. document which found on the internet.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Of course, not many western leaders are hypocrite. Peoples like Jesse Ventura, Ron Paul, Gerald Celente, Peter Schiff, Max Keiser, Jim Rogers, Marc Fobers and Richard Wolff are just a few of them which I trust although they may not perfect characters.

[uoxleonard]

@ltmikepowell Trust seriously, they are the same coin

[ltmikepowell]

@uoxleonard And the mainstream discounted them.

[sguardian870]

the west built rail roads in nigeria and guess what we cant use it for transport becos of the way it was built it run through only the natural resources thus people cant travel with it

[saulpaulus]

When were the railroads built?

[jamir25]

a 1000 views for shame people this is thr mother land wheres opera and r money to support these poeple

[saulpaulus]

What exactly do you mean?

[sguardian870]

did u see the chinese working with the africans i have never seen that in my lifethe west in africa they come and they act superior and mighty sleeping at the hilton hotel etc but when the chinese com they live in condition that an africa of that staus would that is fair

[saulpaulus]

Chinese workers live in a command economy. They do as they are told. And lately they have been told to withdraw. Many Chinese aid and development projects are folding across Africa. I have read that their development projects often did not provide work for Africans to the extent that Western projects have.

[sguardian870]

and where did u hear that the development programs arent working and what projects have the west done that have worked africa is 60 % poorer than it was in the last 60 years hello

[saulpaulus]

Google PEPFAR for instance. It has been in several newspapers that the Chinese are scaling back their aid and actually withdrawing from more unstable regions. You keep throwing around this 60% figure. Africa hasn't kept up with global economic progress and the West must change its policies to facilitate African growth. I would disagree with the notion that Africa is 60% poorer, however.

[mingosan2006]

china will be the new "west" and will use the same tactics of hegemony and evil.

[swindaflesh]

美国是今天,中国是明天!

[saulpaulus]

Your profile says that you are from the US. I assume that you can communicate in English and you will need to do so in order to post on this clip.

[swindaflesh]

sure not a problem

America is today, China is tomorrow.

[saulpaulus]

We will see. More important than which country or countries have hegemony is what values prevail.

[beancube2008]

今天是今天,明天是明天! If 今天 you fake, 美国是 your 明天 and perhaps you don't have 今天 at all! Did you fake yesterday, but 美国 haven't arrive today. It is a British dream on you for couple hundred years already. Do you see how people hated the lines the British drown in the past? They call you their subjects.

[Entropy137]

I do hope that China doesn't go down the road of hegemony that the USA has in ages past. But, consider this, for most of China's history after the Qing dynasty, it lived peacefully next to its neighbors even though it was the most powerful.

[RoniCMaster]

@Entropy137 Don't you mean the Qin Dynasty? The Qing were the last Imperial Dynasty in China. Preceeded by the Ming, Yuan and others. The Qin were the first to set the borders of China and construct the Great Wall.

[ChineseSlaves]

@RoniCMaster i dont think so. please check it on wikipedia. it was those lord warriors in Chow Dynasty who jointly built the great wall in order to preclude invasion of northern tribes.

[saulpaulus]

The relatively low amounts of aid given by China under Mao seem to have had an ideological basis. In recent years, Chinese aid has been much more extensive and has been given with a view to maintain access to raw materials without regard to human rights or the environment.

[swindaflesh]

yes the chinese do access raw materials but at the same time they are helping to build the infrastructure of many african countries

[saulpaulus]

The PRC have shown little concern with sustainable development and democratic values. Sudan's efforts in Darfur are linked to providing the PRC with raw materials and have been supported by the PRC. I am happy for the PRC to obtain raw materials. The issue is how.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus You know those hypocrites in D.C. used human rights to justify their right in Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, which we all know that war means deaths are emerging. And those hypocrites too took our environmental issue as hostage while secretly encouraging oil to be tie with the Greenbacks.

Sadly both of those right now, backfired harshly and now Libya came into the mix. I wish them luck.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell The Afghanistan incursion was well justified by 9/11. Most Americans, incl our President, acknowledge going into Iraq was a mistake. That's something China has a problem with--admitting it was wrong. Your comment about the environment doesn't make a lot of sense. so I am unable to respond.

Iraq was difficult but the US has brought about a hard-won stability. Afghanistan is more difficult because the brutal insurgents are being protected by Pakistan, but we are making progress.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus All war must have a political end, that's a very simple objective throughout our warfare history. Assuming that Afghan War is inevitable, then where's the real political end that supposed to end most insurgency? Then what happen in Iraq where a political ends is a MUST consider the history of conflict in that region? U.S. have golden opportunity a few years back to end these calamities with a wise political end. Sadly the D.C. has let the Defense Department decide the outcome.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell Your comments are unclear and I think I've answered any real question about Afghanistan and Iraq.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Still not understand. Or maybe you're trying to prove that political end in war, is not an objective at all? Well, U.S. have her chance back in 1991 to have a wise political end after the stunning victory over Iraq, and oust Saddam Hussein for good. Sadly, the end didn't happen and this led to a 2003 invasion which later cost thousands of life of American G.I.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell It is true that many claim that the US should have finished Saddam in 1991. Not sure about that. I am sure that we should not have invaded in 2003. Was that what you wanted to hear?

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus As I said, had U.S. achieved a good political end then U.S. won't have to actually waste their resources to invade and maintain Iraq's unstable society.

This simple yet sometimes, ignored fact as already told us many times ever since the ancient time when kings and lords battle out for an ending. As a war that without an ending objective, is just like a time bomb waiting to explode.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Regarding the environmental issue, I may not have further detail but, if those countries like U.S. claimed to have green technology then why there's still no conclusion in all those environmental meeting. Although I may be wrong again, but the answer may be simple, thanks to those oil lobbies. In fact, some U.S. cities has their chance to have clean infrastructures in the past but thanks to the oil lobby, the streets are pile with cars that poison the air.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell If you are saying that US oil companies and others have been on the wrong side of environmental issues, I agree. Beyond that, I don't know what your point is.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus Take one example, the city of L.A. Look at their history of public transport in post-war era, and you'll what I mean.

[saulpaulus]

@ltmikepowell LA has been noteworthy for not having much if any public transit system when compared with NY for example.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus L.A. once got their subway system which supposedly do the right thing for the citizens. Unfortunately, the car and oil lobbyists bought up the system and then destroyed them in the name of competition freedom. Well, the L.A. citizens do have their cars and sub-urban dream. Right now, citizens of L.A. may felt pig sicked regret for allowing cars and trucks to poison their city's once clean air.

[ltmikepowell]

@saulpaulus New York very fortunately, didn't follow the footstep of L.A. Really lucky for them.