Peter 3:20 talks bout all the spirits that waited to hear the gospel of jesus Christ since the day of the great flood so they use their agency to accept it or not. The like figure (AGE) whereunto baptism doth now save us, that is 8 souls.
But c'mon Every knee will bow, every tongue shall confess this about jesus?. Does it not say this?
How could a muslim, buddist, taoist, catholic, protestant, evolutionist, ect ect ect every be included in that wording if it were not true?
@blackmamba54321 To carry fresh water for 22 people and for all their lives stock for 344 days aboad these light" dish like vessels, would require about 6000 plus gallons of fresh water, be it that a person consumes 3 liters per day, animals..etc.(be it just to survive) for fresh water supply alone, they would have to carry 25 tons of it! Now here is the clintcher...How would anybody know how much fresh water to take with them for such a grandious voyage, that no one had ever gone before?
@blackmamba54321 If we were to compare Smith's 8 small light barges with 22 people and lives stock of every kind, full of fresh water and food for a nearly a year..to Noah's ark, it would be like comparing the Empire state building to a dog house! Think of it..Noah ark supported only 8 people, in a ship the size of 3/4 of the Titanic!
@blackmamba54321 Well lets not demean your intelligence, but common, this is asking too much. These barges were like a dish? Which only means that they would flip over in the rough seas, which is the reason for the two holes, (am I right?) In case these things flipped over they were to unstop the hole so that they could breath. (cough%) Now think, if these barges flipped over again and again, what would happen to all the people and the animals and its food stuffs in it? = a Laundry Dryer. lol
@Rypaul5217 it is also going to be awfully unhygienic whenever those crude barges flip over. Excrement, bedding material and dust would be thrown up into the air before landing on the hapless occupants. It would have been the perfect breeding gound for all sort of infectious diseases.
@brandenburg2388 --its the weight and construction of these barges flipping over and over in the wild rough seas that is of great consequence. Such a boat would have to be made of steel or something. Cannot use nails, the stress would be too much, screws or nuts and bolds perhaps? lol ..and pitch is not going to hold either,.not with 25 tons of fresh drinking water, plus 600 lbs cows, and the weight of many herds and whole families, and all the food supplies tumbling around inside like a drum.
@blackmamba54321 Listen, if you can refute the Bible stories or even prove to me that Noah's ship is not now resting upon the mountain of Ararak, please by all means do. This ship btw was the size of a football field and a half long, 75 feet wide and four stories tall! Not a small vessel not by any means and totally sea worthy too, but however, J Smith also believed in a literal Noah's ark and a world wide flood, So you are only going against yourself. (talk about double standards. sheesh!)
@blackmamba54321 Our advice is, dont be conned by a con-man, prove him wrong instead, I challenge you to put your foot on his neck, and test his magic rock claims, have the back bone and the courage to stand up to the liars, You will soon discover and uncover all the balognie, even all the changes to the history the church has made to cover it up. There are plenty of ex LDS Members who have had their names removed from the LDS church, simply because they saw what a crock it all truly was.
@blackmamba54321 -Yes its sad that DNA shoots down Joe Smith's novel, which means even if we didnt believe in the Bible, Science still disproves that there were any Lamanites with Hebrew DNA. for if these people were in fact over here from the descends from Jeruselem, stands to reason that at least one native should have some Hebrew DNA in them, there is none. zelz, nada, zip, nothing. means just that.
come on you can figure it out, there never was any golden book with what ever language.
@brandenburg2388 Yeah? We supposedly share 95% with apes too. Along with other animals that score high in the 90 percentile. There is also no single bottleneck model to go with singlularly Adam and Eve.Yes,we share similarities, but there are too many different kinds of genes. Plus, the DNA timeline don't even match each other. (You can look on wikipedia for that). My main point to rypaul is since DNA does not support his beliefs, his point is towards LDS with DNA is moot.
@blackmamba54321 to qualify as being genetically similar, it is mandatory for the number of chromosomes to be at least equal. Thus on the first rule, we can rule out primates as sharing a common ancestor with man. Humans have 46 chromosomes while chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans all have 48, and the Rhesus monkey 42.
Lucy Smith reports “Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.” (Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 134)
@blackmamba54321 BoM, in the book of Ether, 22 people leave the tower of Babel and build 8 small submarine-like barges with top and bottom holes, (in case it flips) collected and packed them with“flocks and herds” for a sea journey that would last for 344 days. Well just one cow would require six tons of hay and 3000 gallons of fresh water to survive. which means they would not be able to hold the volume of food required to feed all their livestock for nearly a whole year.
@Rypaul5217 yup, the BoM is full of contradictions, anachronisms and downright fantasy tales when compared to facts. Not surprising since the BoM was authored by a team of 19th century conmen who were rather ignorant in specialized disciplines like archaelogy, history, culture, language, metallurgy etc. And these conmen would not have imagined the advent of sophisticated technlogy like DNA mapping that would later expose the BoM as a fraud.
@Rypaul5217 Yeah, and being stuck in a whale for 3 days, talking donkies, dragons, a boat with enough food to support every set of species of animals on the planet and your family sounds a lot better huh? Enough of your double standards.
@blackmamba54321 So does this also mean that the Lord of the Rings is also Bible stories? Heck what could be fiction? The source for Ether story is from Joseph Smith's own head, is a story about 22 people who sailed across two vast oceans blindly sufficating, flipping over and over in the wild seas, unstopping the top and bottom holes, tumbling animals inbetween, if the kid wrote his own fiction, seems heir apparent to his own imagination. which was my poiint. its his novel and nothing more.
@Rypaul5217 Yeah and the story of Noah is about him and his family surviving the flood with a boat full of animals. Tell me, how did they get enough food for the animals again? Oh wait dont forget about his own family...oh wait! nobody really knows...Your double standard thinking is remarkebly over the top.
@blackmamba54321 the ark that Noah built was the most complex ship in existence in those days. It was 133 m long and 22 m wide, which would make it as large as a modern-day frigate. And it had compartments (rooms) and 3 decks to hold a large quantity of cargo. From the account in Genesis, Noah took many many years to construct the Ark, which would have given him and his family enough time to collect and store food like straw, grains etc in the ark for the animals.
@blackmamba54321 Like I said before, it would be a mute point to even go there, since we both believe Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. but jumping on a horse of a different color will not help Joseph Smith case any. Question is, if the BoM truly was only 19th century fabrication, how would you know it? I just found out that there is this Ex-LDS member who read Smiths book 20 times before he found it to be a farce. His online opinion about Smith's novel is truly revealing.
@Rypaul5217 That is EXACTLY MY point. DNA does NOT support you own beliefs yet you use it to your advantage. Your like a suicide bomber. Good job. You refuted my belief by using something that also refutes you own. Im proud of you.
@Rypaul5217 "So is our argument about Moses or Jo Smith" Neither. Our DISCUSSION is on the fact that you disregard the fact that the Bible teaches that Adam and Eve are the first humans and all of our first parents. You also ignore the "fact" that DNA does NOT support Adam and Eve WHATSOEVER. And then you use DNA to support you arguments against us. THAT IS WHAT IS GOING ON. YOU won't man the hell up and ADMIT that you are double standard. That you are a DECEIVER.
@blackmamba54321 DNA shows who the Native Americans came from, this is a truth we can prove, both to our selves and to the whole world at large. In fact, its the most accurate science able to convict a crimminal suspect of a crime, no...only fiction book writers claiming off the wall stories, (using steel swords chariots horses, cows, etc..) copying whole King James Bible verses as he went along, picking this verse here and taking that verse there, so it was Jo Smith who was a deciever. not us.
@Rypaul5217 You change subjects like a car shifts gears.You can't seem to stay on topic."DNA shows who the Native Americans came from"yet you have no rebuttal on the Adam and Eve subject.Why is that?Why do you always throw in the Native Americans when we are talking about our first parents on earth?You don't even metion it.You can throw in all the Red Herrings you want.I will stand on this issue until you answer it.DNA does not support Adam and Eve.And then you use DNA for your arguments.SMH.
@blackmamba54321 Why are we trying to refute Moses? Smith believed in Adam and Eve, so to debunk the Bible is to debunk J Smith, for he used the Bible, even as Charles Russel of the JW's & many other self appointed prophet types, pick out a few verses, then with authority claim "oh we are the only true church". The point is Cults take the Bible and twist it into their own religion, decieving many with their mountain of lies, much like a pied piper leading children into their own false hill
@Rypaul5217 Im NOT trying to refute Moses. We both believe in Adam and Eve. BUT DNA does NOT support Adam and Eve. Yet you USE DNA to YOUR own leverage even though it does not even support your very own beliefs. THAT is what I am getting at.
@blackmamba54321 on the contrary, the Human Genome Project has shown that whatever genetic variation found between 2 human beings of different racial origins, it is in the region of 0.5%, which means that all of us have 99.5% genetic similarity. And this figure has remain fairly constant throughout the milleniums. This is only possible if all of us share a common ancestor.
@LDS4life71 The wheel is all too important invention, would be onset into the minds of men forever, its complete usefulness and solution is all too obvious. So how come the native aborigeneses didnt adopt the wheel? Simple. The ancient Americans were primative Asians who came over the berring strait long before the invention of the wheel, some time late in the ice age, else they would have simply adopted the cart and wagon and we would see them still using them when Columbus had arrived.
@LDS4Life71 nope, no horses, or chariots, or cows or oxen, no cattle or sheep, or any steel swords were in South America. (not until the Europians arrived did the horse and cattle wheat grain etc was introduced) but of course a 1800's back yard 7th grader would think that these things were in abundance, especially kings with steel swords and horses driving chariots all over the place. blowing the horn, having many battles, likewise, the wheel, so common to Joseph Smith world is also evident.
Alma 20:6 "Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots."
Alma 18:9 "and they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots,"
Alma18:10 "Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfullness of Ammon."
Mos 10:5 "And I did cause that the women should spin, and toil, and work, and work all manner of fine linen, yea, and cloth of every kind, that we might clothe our nakedness;"
Hele 6:13 "Behold their women did toil and spin, and did make all manner of cloth, of fine-twined linen and cloth of every kind, to clothe their nakedness. "
Ether 10:24 "And they did have silks, and fine-twined linen; and they did work all manner of cloth, that they might clothe themselves from their nakedness."
@Rypaul5217 silk in Meso-America? lol. Anyone with a rudimentary level of intelligence will know by now that the BoM is fake. Since Meso-Americans had zero knowledge of silk production as it was for centuries a carefully guarded secret of the ancient Chinese. And no circumstantial evidence like the mulberry plants and silkworms being found in the Americas. BoM = conman job 101.
@brandenburg2388 I dont know...why should they engrave on gold plates more than twice, just to say that their women made clothing so that they should not be naked? ..lol.
@LDS4Life71 Which of any Jew invented steel swords before anybody? Laban? 1st Nephi 4:9 "And I beheld his (Laban) sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel."
I have to say this the kid had some imagination. Its when you see how Smith uses these "steel swords” in his novel ie. cutting off arms of his enemies that gives him away.
@Rypaul5217 Get over yourself. The sword of Laban is a reality, and you will be so sorry you didn't get to know the true God of this earth. You do not know the God of the bible, and you're completely ignorant.
@LDS4Life71--- have you even read Joseph Smith story novel? See Ether 7:9 "Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords OUT OF STEEL for those whom he had drawn away with him;" Steel? Way back 4000 years ago?? Everybody in the BOM can make weapons of steel. Steel swords, Steel bows. centimers? The kid was only a 7th grader who simply didnt know what real steel was and wrote a novel about such steel swords. In his story they even "drew out" swords.
@LDS4Life71 well its obvious fiction for a man name Shiz to have his head cut off and Joseph Smith still narrating his last living and breathing drama. lol
Don't forget to join the Worldwide YouTube Boycott Every Sunday and the Weekend of Feb 18 & 19th, don't log in to your account during this time and also make your videos private, YT relies heavily on advertising revenue so if we all do this they will lose out big time, spread the word...BOYCOTT!
@LDS4Life71 --- yeah well name calling would work except you forgot to raise your hand up at me....lol ...this way you could see me run and hide behind a bush shaking and trembling...ooooooo
@Rypaul5217 STOP WITH THE DODGING. I ALREADY ASKED YOU AND I QUOTE FOR THE-FIFTH-TIME "WHY DO YOU IGNORE DNA'S DISAPPROVAL OF ADAM AND EVE"? Quit PLAYING around and answer the bloody question. Want it simpler? FIne. Leave aside the "archeological findings" BS, and all the Joseph Smith garbage and ANSWER, FOR THE LAST TIME: There different types of DNA that are NOT alike and from different regions which debately questions the existence of Adam and Eve, WHY DO YOU IGNORE THIS condemn LDS for this?
@blackmamba54321 Who wrote the book of Genesis? So is our argument about Moses or Jo Smith who added 15 BoM passages right into the last chapter of the Bible's book of Genesis about himself? (see J.Smith's transl. Gen. ch 50) Clearly this added section is his own molochie use of "fruit of thy loins.. fruit of the loins of" over and over, you should count them yourself, and behold, its also in 2 Nephi 3..proof that a 7th grader wrote it, twas not the way Moses wrote, not by a long shot.
@Rypaul5217 Decievers like you don't have a brain. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and the book of Mormon is absolutely the word of God. God revealed it to all of us, that read it and pray for the truth. WE ALL have a more competent brain that your weak feeble intellect.
@LDS4Life71 Well, I suppose that in Joseph's book of Ether...some 4000 years ago... they also had steel swords. lol... [ common get a brain ] The kid wrote his own 7th grade storybook.
@blackmamba54321 The DNA study was not done to condemn you personally, nor was it trying to patronize you, or undermine your religious beliefs. If you are missing the information about the DNA matter and what it proves, then you are NOT looking at the evidence objectively, & simply need to think, how could a married 24 year
old write a 7th grade novel? Yes its possible & very likely the case here, for there is more evidence that Jo Smith was faking it than to have actually found golden plates.
@LDS4Life71 ok so just where is this so called record? yup ---I thought so...you ve got nothing.
Eventually you will get it. You're simply in a 19th century cult, nothing more.
Cults change the meaning of reality into a fantasy (in this case, a mere storybook novel--) Its like your a spinning like a top all for nothing, and with nothing...Its sad.
I can only hope that you are happy without any brains.
@LDS4Life71 yup, you're absolutely right --- Our God is not your God...(our God is a Holy fire, which is and always will be an eternal spirit---is the only God) God never was a human planetary being or creature of any form or limitations, nor is He one of many gods who is also said to have come down and had sex with Mary? (Wow!) And now has many wives in heaven? Really? Nah, your idea of many gods is mere fictious make believe like pagan beliefs in the Greek and Roman gods of Zeuz and Apollo.
Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and no matter what rypaul says out of his behind. Joseph smith still translated a portion of ancient central american history into English from an Semitic tongue.
@LDS4Life71---Joseph words are like spegetti with ragoo sauce. lol only you have to suck in his long spegetti noodle for 10 whole minuets before you get some of the tomata sauce...lol
Behold. Behold insomuch..wherefore, behold...behold...insomuch..wherefore...and it came to pass, that, behold...and it came to pass, behold! And everybody who wrote the book of Mormon spoke like this? I mean who did this kid think he was kidding?
@LDS4Life71 --- Its like Joseph Smith must say everything 3 to 6 times just to make one point and then go back and write the same thing all over again, because he wanted to make it sound better.lol His writing style is so overt, its like taking cerand wrap and wrapping your own salad bowl over and over again, until the reader is smothered in it. and then tosses it over and over, so to elaborate on what he just wrote! Somebody please! turn off the focet!
@Rypaul5217 You still stuck on Dr. Seuss? Go figure. Joseph Smith translated a record, and that record fulfilled biblical prophecy. You scoff only at your own demise.
@Rypaul5217 You know dang well what Im asking here. All that 'moses and jews have hebrew dna' hoopla is BESIDE the point of my question. Step by step now...why do YOU, claim WHOLE heartely, that dna proves LDS wrong, when U KNOW that DNA also "proves" that there is no Adam and Eve. I will NOT answer your question until you have answered mine.
@blackmamba54321 Jews we have proof of even without DNA (this a no brainer in fact) The facts are so abundant with antiquity that using DNA would be rather rediculous, like I said before, there is no argument. There is plenty of archelogical evidence and cities of the Bible found, thousands of manuscripts, etc, but however, there is all the reason in the world to doubt the Book of Mormon to be anything historic, and that its just a piece of fiction, which is the focus of our debate.
@Rypaul5217 For the love of GOD! Did you READ my first comment? Its NOT an argument. For the fourth time answer the QUESTION, Why do you WILLINGLY ignore that DNA "proves" that there is no Adam and Eve and have the audacity to use it against LDS? Or answer me this...why wont answer the questiom??? Simply stating we believe that moses was hebrew and all that shinanigans is all distractions! Stop dodging and answer. Or do you not want to...
@blackmamba54321 Again there is no argument so serously this is a mute point--because the evidence that there was a Moses is Documented in Jewish history---why Even Jesus quoted Moses. so was Christ a liar?
but on a local note If you read my answer to your question...you would know that Moses = Hebrew DNA = Genesis = Adam and Eve..ok so I have already answered your question. What seems to be your problem?
@blackmamba54321---Again, I ask you..where in the Bible is there any mention of "ANOTHER" promise land? There is nothing in the Old Testament, and none of the Apostes ever mention this other promise land. This idea of Smith was merely fictional.(As I said, a clone of the original Genesis-Abraham story.) Joseph's book is only a 19th Century novel. There was only one promise land concerning God and his people. To say that there is another is to pretend to be another Moses.
@blackmamba54321 Your argument has no merrit, sir, Jews have Hebrew DNA. Moses was Hebrew, Moses wrote Genesis-etc. The proof of Moses is the Hebrew nation which is visible even today. The proof the Jews are that History is both cultural and recorded antiquity...There is no argument...thats the point... What you guys have IS NOTHING. So now you are tossed all about looking for some pieces of straw to put back into the strawman. but the truth that its all a big lie will always blow it away.
Okay...so do Mormons actually believe Native Americans were descendants from Israel...and that one tribe got rid of the other and was punished by God and their skin was changed? Just curious.
The mark of Cain is understood to be dark skin. (Genesis 9:25 and Alma 3:6).
If I were you, I'd read the references for myself because this is very deep. Also the most important belief is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and He loves us and we love Him.
@Blackmamba54321 Jesus paid the price, not a prophet dude. No matter who he claims himself to be, he did not pay for anything. In fact Jo Smith boasted that he had done a greater work than Jesus and his apostles, (huh?)...but Jesus said "The sheep do not hear a stranger.." we dont hear Jo Smith because...Jesus said "My sheep hear MY voice and I call them out by name and they follow ME."
@Rypaul5217 "Jesus paid the price, not a prophet dude", Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? Where have I or anyone in this forum or any forum claim that we reach salvation through a prophet? A prophet is there to lead. That is all. We have already refutted that so called 'boast'. For the third time, stay on subject and answer the question.
@blackmamba54321 That line about a prophet puts the follower completely off the hook. Ya see all the texts were written by prophets, so nothing in the scriptures matters because Jesus did everything so we thus don't have to do anything. In essence it is the gospel of I can have everything for nothing.
@Bureyeanne lol then they use these scriptures to their own liking...I love the double standar-err I mean the Christ like attrubutions towards everyone..especailly LDS...
@blackmamba54321 Then why do we need Joseph Smith? Isnt Jesus the only answer for saving a man's soul?
And where in the Bible is there any metion of "another" promise land? There is nothing in the old testament, and none of the Apostes ever mention another promise land...Are we to believe in someone elses fantasy? How can a fantasy book be true without question, if there was no Biblical bases for it? Could it be just an imatation? a clone of the Genesis-Abraham story?
@Bureyeanne Um so what are these many books--too many that the Bible mentions---that you cant list here---say? I dont know, who does? (um surely you could mention just 5 of them..)
Well I guess anyone can make it up as he goes along...sure why not, who will dare question an idiot?
@Rypaul5217 "who will dare question an idiot?" You are the idiot. Get over yourself, loser. Joseph Smith was without a doubt a true prophet of our Heavenly Father, and his calling to restore the truth is from God. he is the Messiah Ben-Joseph to be killed before the coming of the Messiah Ben David. You are the real idiot. Shut your pie hole. bmaf.org lds.org fairlds.org JefflindsayDOTcom AmericanTestament.blogspotDOTcom FOR the TRUTH :)
@LDS4Life71 Calm down LDS4Life... I'm LDS too, the problem is that hatred is a form of sin. We can however have a debate that does not relly on hate and anger. Let us be peaceful about this... Keep the anger on the downlow, we dont need sin within a simple conversation over the internet.
@trumpetboy262 Rypaul isn't looking for truth, but is a stumbling block to people. He just sits and trolls this page. He doesn't understand that the prophets did know Jesus Christ, and especially his name. and yes the Israelite nation were true "chjristians."
@LDS4Life71---that a man can write his own book is what you cannot comprehend.
I mean its obviously too lazy dont you think? That a great journey across two vast oceans by Lehi family boat took only one line of script for the whole voyage, (from when Nephi took over), its like blip! and they're there.lol..but if you read Jacob 5 (that is if you can get through all the verbage) it took an amazing 77 verses to explain how a tree in a vineyard is purged to bring forth more fruit..RoFL!
@LDS4Life71 "....the prophets did know Jesus Christ and especially His name". I gotta disagree with your statement. Please show us a verse from the Old Testament that specifically mentioned the name Jesus Christ or His equivalent Hebrew name of Yeshua? The ancient prophets only had a foreknowledge of the coming of the Messiah but His name was kept a mystery from them by God. The name Jesus was first revealed by the angel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary (Luke1: 31).
@brandenburg2388 The writings of SEVERAL early Christian Fathers including Clement of Rome and others accused the Jews of removing the name of Jesus Christ from their record. The name WAS there, and they removed it. This is why the Book of Mormon still knows the truth, and the bible is full of faults just like you just mentioned. Because of the bible, whichever one you use, you still stumble.
You obviously need to do more research. The BYprofessor did a video set on it.
@brandenburg2388 The writings of SEVERAL early Christian Fathers including Clement of Rome and others accused the Jews of removing the name of Jesus Christ from their record. The name WAS there, and they removed it. This is why the Book of Mormon still knows the truth, and the bible is full of faults just like you just mentioned. Because of the bible, whichever one you use, you still stumble.
You obviously need to do more research. The BYprofessor did a video set on it.
@brandenburg2388 The writings of SEVERAL early Christian Fathers including Clement of Rome and others accused the Jews of removing the name of Jesus Christ from their record. The name WAS there, and they removed it. This is why the Book of Mormon still knows the truth, and the bible is full of faults just like you just mentioned. Because of the bible, whichever one you use, you still stumble.
You obviously need to do more research. The BYprofessor did a video set on it.
@LDS4Life71 there is absolutely no proof of the Jews ever tampering with the Hebrew Scriptures. This was not something that they could fiddle with as they liked since it was regarded as the very words spoken by Jehovah.
@brandenburg2388 The early Christian Father's writings are proof enough for me. Stop dancing like an idiot like Rypaul. They knew the name Jesus before JC was ever even conceived and then they removed it from their record just as the early Christian fathers are accusing them of.
@Blackmamba54321 God created all things (and He only) Man is the highest of his creation, but sin is in the world, Paul writes "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and "the wages of sin is death" Hereby we need to come to God and ask him to save us from our sinful delema, and forgive us, surrender to God completely with all of our heart and ask Jesus to come in and take over, hence we become born again.
Jesus said " I am the door, he that enters by me, shall be saved."
@Blackmamba54321 Having said that, Genesis is crucial to the existance of the nation of Isreal, from Abraham, the promise of God about one promise land.the land of Cannan which is why the promise land was so important to his people---however in veiw of Adam sin.Man's fallen state is related to his nature, be it primitive or savage, or evil in heart, Man needs to know God, but sin separates all men from knowing God, and the law is its revealer, pointing to our guilt, and need for saving grace.
My Jesus was the Son of God just as he said that we are sons of God. Why? Because scripture teaches us the God is the Father of spirits!!!! Do we have spirits? Yes! Does Jesus have a spirit? Yes! Is Satan a spirit? Yes, sorry about that but he is also a spirit. He was a spirit in heaven with all the spirits, or sons and daughters of God, and was cast out by his rebellious actions (Rev 12:12-15). It is Biblical.
Lies that are conjured up by apostates do not constitute evidence. They remain lies. Joseph Smith however did not lie, and neither did the eleven witnesses that held and and seen the plates with the appearance of gold.
Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
@blackmamba54321 --quote what? I dont know what you are talking about sir.
all you have to do is go to Irr org (type in search window there) or utlm org or exmormons com or even momonthink com to find this or any of this information. and I think that I already posted a site to the last person I conversed with in here.
@Rypaul5217 I have a question for you, not a debate-why do you use DNA as one of your "greatest" arguments when it is just as "damaging" (not really) to your beliefs? Such as the debatable existance of Adam and Eve? Do you willingly ignore that?
@blackmamba54321 To debate the book of genesis is to debate the existance of Moses who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. But since we both agree that Moses was a Prophet - and chosen deliverer by God, it would be pointless to refute Moses and since j.Smith also wrote about Moses and about Adam and Eve.then its a mute point. The focus is on J Smith, his book, his teachings on other gods, if he was false on what he claims, then all of his story is also fakery. self apppointed and deceptive.
@Rypaul5217 You are dodging the question. It was a simple question really. Instead of answering it head on, you try to divert it to joseph smith. I dont care what the focus is, I asked you why you willingly ignore the "fact" the DNA "proves" that there is no Adam and Eve. Stay on subject and answer again...truthfully.
@M424Filmcast---Well all the sources here at this one particular web site are well documented, year by year covering when and where and with what plural wife Smith had with some of the history and circumstances about each. some of the very words of J Smith himself is documented so that the person how is studing it can get a grasp about what Smith was saying about poligamy. The list is long and full, more so than any other place I have studied concerning this issue.
I have observed one amusing and quizzical thing talking to mormons, on the controversial elements (polygamy, attiude to blacks, weird teachings like moon being inhabited, etc) there are 2 camps. Those who flat-out deny them, and those who try to build an argument to justify them. And the best of all are those who start in one camp, then move on to the other mid argument. its wonderful :)
@alfiejames8 This sounds like the typical critic. Create a premise as if it's the only possibility, then claim that any argument against your railings is somehow only justification. Then of course claiming that we all just "run away".
@M424Filmcast really? well Jesus placed great importance on knowing Him, even after He ascended, so you're arguing that point with Him. want scripture for that?
@alfiejames8 "[do we]...the know[ ] of Jesus personally?"
My ..oh my...I don't know about you ...but when was Jesus last on the earth so you can speak to him "personally" and know him personally? I know I love my saviour Jesus Christ...I know I follow him and preach him as does our theology...but this simpleton..needs confirmation for some reason of our own PERSONAL relationship...[scratches head]...[shakes head]...
@M424Filmcast but He is here in spirit, and lives in His born-again believers, that is how we know, commune and live with Him. Its stuff found in the epistles mate :) but not in your church apparently
@M424Filmcast there has been lots of comments, I have no way of knowing which such a non-distinct statement was replying to, call it think if you like
@M424Filmcast --- I gave you all the sources to study...I have to go and make dinner now, but I will be back later tonight, but I will want to get your feed back on the history of Joseph Smith poligamy chronology, or if you can produce a better site I would like to see it. This one in my opinion is pretty conclusive and academic. full of sources. and documentation.
@1overthehillsfaraway He was born on a farm. He owned a farm. He traveled on horseback 300's of miles. And you post that he never worked an honest day in his life? You will be hard pressed to find any other church who's leaders don't ask for payment for their services.
We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
The true gospel of Jesus Christ was restored by the True Prophet of God, Joseph Smith, he was ordained with Power and authority from on HIGH, and given Joseph Smith to restore the Church of GOD.
@LDS4Life71 There are thousand of these so called restorationists groups throughout the US, all say that they have the restored gospel, and that they are the only true chruch because of it....so which one of these groups think that they have the proper authority? all of them...lol..geez luweez now what?
@Rypaul5217 I know you have said this arguement before. You're a broken record. It's been disputed. You got nothing, but false accusations and assumptions. the Tanners are liars, and are burning in hell.
@nasticanasta Acts 7:51-53 “Ye STIFFNECKED and uncircumcised IN HEART and EARS, YE DO ALWAYS RESIST the HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, SO DO YE. Which of the PROPHETS have not your fathers PERSECUTED and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have RECIEVED the law BY THE DISPOSITION OF ANGELS, and have NOT KEPT IT”.
@M424Filmcast lol now your posting stuff about yourself.. how odd...and I haven't called anyone a name here.. but you guys have.. check yourself first... lol look at your yelling and caps.. it's hilarious watching you crash and burn,you received it from a lying kid...mine comes from God. I just love when Judge Judy says," you know how to tell if a teen is lying, their mouths are moving" lol.. so full of hatred you are making spelling errors and yelling...the sign of a religious nut
@M424Filmcast ---The LDS dont even know who the Holy Ghost is..much less who the Lord God of the OT is...um Brigham Young says The Holy Ghost is the arch angel Michael, JOD Vol 1 pg 51 ] others say he is another son of God. so which is it? how can you be saved by an angel? The Holy Spirit is God, which is the Holy Ghost. according to the scriptures. He is the only one whom you can blaphemy. is a sin against God himself.
@Rypaul5217 RE :Using extra-scriptural resources to attack LDS theology LDS theology is only based on the following: The Bible The Book of Mormon The D&C The PofGP And General Conferance talks that eventually get sustained as revelation to be binding on the saints (i.e. The Proclamation to the World) These are called the standard works - and if it doesn't come from any of these..then it is just speculation and "theory" - not doctrine nor binding on the saints
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Peter 3:20 talks bout all the spirits that waited to hear the gospel of jesus Christ since the day of the great flood so they use their agency to accept it or not. The like figure (AGE) whereunto baptism doth now save us, that is 8 souls.
But c'mon Every knee will bow, every tongue shall confess this about jesus?. Does it not say this?
How could a muslim, buddist, taoist, catholic, protestant, evolutionist, ect ect ect every be included in that wording if it were not true?
LDS4Life71 2 hours ago
81 evidences presented by PHD scholars from fair/FARMS
Joseph Smith was undoubtedly a true prophet of God.
LDS4Life71 13 hours ago
@LDS4Life71 the only criteria that can absolutely prove Smith's prophethood is given in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. He simply failed this crucial test.
brandenburg2388 9 hours ago
@brandenburg2388 No I'm afraid you'll have to do much better than that. Joseph Smith was a without a doubt a true prophet of God.
LDS4Life71 2 hours ago
They can bash and trash Joseph Smith, but the truth remains that he didn't lie, and was a true prophet of the Saviour Jesus Christ.
lds.org
bmaf.org
LDS4Life71 20 hours ago
@blackmamba54321 To carry fresh water for 22 people and for all their lives stock for 344 days aboad these light" dish like vessels, would require about 6000 plus gallons of fresh water, be it that a person consumes 3 liters per day, animals..etc.(be it just to survive) for fresh water supply alone, they would have to carry 25 tons of it! Now here is the clintcher...How would anybody know how much fresh water to take with them for such a grandious voyage, that no one had ever gone before?
Rypaul5217 20 hours ago
@blackmamba54321 If we were to compare Smith's 8 small light barges with 22 people and lives stock of every kind, full of fresh water and food for a nearly a year..to Noah's ark, it would be like comparing the Empire state building to a dog house! Think of it..Noah ark supported only 8 people, in a ship the size of 3/4 of the Titanic!
Rypaul5217 20 hours ago
@blackmamba54321 Well lets not demean your intelligence, but common, this is asking too much. These barges were like a dish? Which only means that they would flip over in the rough seas, which is the reason for the two holes, (am I right?) In case these things flipped over they were to unstop the hole so that they could breath. (cough%) Now think, if these barges flipped over again and again, what would happen to all the people and the animals and its food stuffs in it? = a Laundry Dryer. lol
Rypaul5217 22 hours ago
@Rypaul5217 it is also going to be awfully unhygienic whenever those crude barges flip over. Excrement, bedding material and dust would be thrown up into the air before landing on the hapless occupants. It would have been the perfect breeding gound for all sort of infectious diseases.
brandenburg2388 8 hours ago
@brandenburg2388 --its the weight and construction of these barges flipping over and over in the wild rough seas that is of great consequence. Such a boat would have to be made of steel or something. Cannot use nails, the stress would be too much, screws or nuts and bolds perhaps? lol ..and pitch is not going to hold either,.not with 25 tons of fresh drinking water, plus 600 lbs cows, and the weight of many herds and whole families, and all the food supplies tumbling around inside like a drum.
Rypaul5217 15 minutes ago
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Rypaul5217 22 hours ago
@blackmamba54321 Listen, if you can refute the Bible stories or even prove to me that Noah's ship is not now resting upon the mountain of Ararak, please by all means do. This ship btw was the size of a football field and a half long, 75 feet wide and four stories tall! Not a small vessel not by any means and totally sea worthy too, but however, J Smith also believed in a literal Noah's ark and a world wide flood, So you are only going against yourself. (talk about double standards. sheesh!)
Rypaul5217 22 hours ago
@blackmamba54321 Our advice is, dont be conned by a con-man, prove him wrong instead, I challenge you to put your foot on his neck, and test his magic rock claims, have the back bone and the courage to stand up to the liars, You will soon discover and uncover all the balognie, even all the changes to the history the church has made to cover it up. There are plenty of ex LDS Members who have had their names removed from the LDS church, simply because they saw what a crock it all truly was.
Rypaul5217 1 day ago
@blackmamba54321 -Yes its sad that DNA shoots down Joe Smith's novel, which means even if we didnt believe in the Bible, Science still disproves that there were any Lamanites with Hebrew DNA. for if these people were in fact over here from the descends from Jeruselem, stands to reason that at least one native should have some Hebrew DNA in them, there is none. zelz, nada, zip, nothing. means just that.
come on you can figure it out, there never was any golden book with what ever language.
Rypaul5217 1 day ago
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Rypaul5217 1 day ago
@brandenburg2388 Yeah? We supposedly share 95% with apes too. Along with other animals that score high in the 90 percentile. There is also no single bottleneck model to go with singlularly Adam and Eve.Yes,we share similarities, but there are too many different kinds of genes. Plus, the DNA timeline don't even match each other. (You can look on wikipedia for that). My main point to rypaul is since DNA does not support his beliefs, his point is towards LDS with DNA is moot.
blackmamba54321 2 days ago
@blackmamba54321 to qualify as being genetically similar, it is mandatory for the number of chromosomes to be at least equal. Thus on the first rule, we can rule out primates as sharing a common ancestor with man. Humans have 46 chromosomes while chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans all have 48, and the Rhesus monkey 42.
brandenburg2388 1 day ago
Lucy Smith reports “Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.” (Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 134)
Rypaul5217 2 days ago
@blackmamba54321 BoM, in the book of Ether, 22 people leave the tower of Babel and build 8 small submarine-like barges with top and bottom holes, (in case it flips) collected and packed them with“flocks and herds” for a sea journey that would last for 344 days. Well just one cow would require six tons of hay and 3000 gallons of fresh water to survive. which means they would not be able to hold the volume of food required to feed all their livestock for nearly a whole year.
fiction 101
Rypaul5217 2 days ago
@Rypaul5217 yup, the BoM is full of contradictions, anachronisms and downright fantasy tales when compared to facts. Not surprising since the BoM was authored by a team of 19th century conmen who were rather ignorant in specialized disciplines like archaelogy, history, culture, language, metallurgy etc. And these conmen would not have imagined the advent of sophisticated technlogy like DNA mapping that would later expose the BoM as a fraud.
brandenburg2388 2 days ago
@Rypaul5217 Yeah, and being stuck in a whale for 3 days, talking donkies, dragons, a boat with enough food to support every set of species of animals on the planet and your family sounds a lot better huh? Enough of your double standards.
blackmamba54321 1 day ago
@blackmamba54321 So does this also mean that the Lord of the Rings is also Bible stories? Heck what could be fiction? The source for Ether story is from Joseph Smith's own head, is a story about 22 people who sailed across two vast oceans blindly sufficating, flipping over and over in the wild seas, unstopping the top and bottom holes, tumbling animals inbetween, if the kid wrote his own fiction, seems heir apparent to his own imagination. which was my poiint. its his novel and nothing more.
Rypaul5217 1 day ago
@Rypaul5217 Yeah and the story of Noah is about him and his family surviving the flood with a boat full of animals. Tell me, how did they get enough food for the animals again? Oh wait dont forget about his own family...oh wait! nobody really knows...Your double standard thinking is remarkebly over the top.
blackmamba54321 1 day ago
@blackmamba54321 the ark that Noah built was the most complex ship in existence in those days. It was 133 m long and 22 m wide, which would make it as large as a modern-day frigate. And it had compartments (rooms) and 3 decks to hold a large quantity of cargo. From the account in Genesis, Noah took many many years to construct the Ark, which would have given him and his family enough time to collect and store food like straw, grains etc in the ark for the animals.
brandenburg2388 1 day ago
@blackmamba54321 Like I said before, it would be a mute point to even go there, since we both believe Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. but jumping on a horse of a different color will not help Joseph Smith case any. Question is, if the BoM truly was only 19th century fabrication, how would you know it? I just found out that there is this Ex-LDS member who read Smiths book 20 times before he found it to be a farce. His online opinion about Smith's novel is truly revealing.
Rypaul5217 2 days ago
@Rypaul5217 That is EXACTLY MY point. DNA does NOT support you own beliefs yet you use it to your advantage. Your like a suicide bomber. Good job. You refuted my belief by using something that also refutes you own. Im proud of you.
blackmamba54321 1 day ago
Your Biblical Prophecies are all fails, if you actually read those passages in context, you'd feel stupid for posting this video.
kightsun 2 days ago
@blackmamba54321---and 99.4% Asain DNA is not a red Herring.
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
@Rypaul5217 You are missing the point...again
blackmamba54321 2 days ago
@Rypaul5217 It is when it has nothing to do with Adam and Eve
blackmamba54321 2 days ago
@Rypaul5217 "So is our argument about Moses or Jo Smith" Neither. Our DISCUSSION is on the fact that you disregard the fact that the Bible teaches that Adam and Eve are the first humans and all of our first parents. You also ignore the "fact" that DNA does NOT support Adam and Eve WHATSOEVER. And then you use DNA to support you arguments against us. THAT IS WHAT IS GOING ON. YOU won't man the hell up and ADMIT that you are double standard. That you are a DECEIVER.
blackmamba54321 3 days ago
@blackmamba54321 DNA shows who the Native Americans came from, this is a truth we can prove, both to our selves and to the whole world at large. In fact, its the most accurate science able to convict a crimminal suspect of a crime, no...only fiction book writers claiming off the wall stories, (using steel swords chariots horses, cows, etc..) copying whole King James Bible verses as he went along, picking this verse here and taking that verse there, so it was Jo Smith who was a deciever. not us.
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
@Rypaul5217 You change subjects like a car shifts gears.You can't seem to stay on topic."DNA shows who the Native Americans came from"yet you have no rebuttal on the Adam and Eve subject.Why is that?Why do you always throw in the Native Americans when we are talking about our first parents on earth?You don't even metion it.You can throw in all the Red Herrings you want.I will stand on this issue until you answer it.DNA does not support Adam and Eve.And then you use DNA for your arguments.SMH.
blackmamba54321 3 days ago
@blackmamba54321 Why are we trying to refute Moses? Smith believed in Adam and Eve, so to debunk the Bible is to debunk J Smith, for he used the Bible, even as Charles Russel of the JW's & many other self appointed prophet types, pick out a few verses, then with authority claim "oh we are the only true church". The point is Cults take the Bible and twist it into their own religion, decieving many with their mountain of lies, much like a pied piper leading children into their own false hill
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
@Rypaul5217 Im NOT trying to refute Moses. We both believe in Adam and Eve. BUT DNA does NOT support Adam and Eve. Yet you USE DNA to YOUR own leverage even though it does not even support your very own beliefs. THAT is what I am getting at.
blackmamba54321 3 days ago
@blackmamba54321 on the contrary, the Human Genome Project has shown that whatever genetic variation found between 2 human beings of different racial origins, it is in the region of 0.5%, which means that all of us have 99.5% genetic similarity. And this figure has remain fairly constant throughout the milleniums. This is only possible if all of us share a common ancestor.
brandenburg2388 2 days ago
@LDS4life71 The wheel is all too important invention, would be onset into the minds of men forever, its complete usefulness and solution is all too obvious. So how come the native aborigeneses didnt adopt the wheel? Simple. The ancient Americans were primative Asians who came over the berring strait long before the invention of the wheel, some time late in the ice age, else they would have simply adopted the cart and wagon and we would see them still using them when Columbus had arrived.
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
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@LDS4Life71 nope, no horses, or chariots, or cows or oxen, no cattle or sheep, or any steel swords were in South America. (not until the Europians arrived did the horse and cattle wheat grain etc was introduced) but of course a 1800's back yard 7th grader would think that these things were in abundance, especially kings with steel swords and horses driving chariots all over the place. blowing the horn, having many battles, likewise, the wheel, so common to Joseph Smith world is also evident.
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
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Rypaul5217 3 days ago
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Rypaul5217 3 days ago
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Rypaul5217 3 days ago
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Alma 20:6 "Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots."
Alma 18:9 "and they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots,"
Alma18:10 "Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfullness of Ammon."
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
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Rypaul5217 3 days ago
Mos 10:5 "And I did cause that the women should spin, and toil, and work, and work all manner of fine linen, yea, and cloth of every kind, that we might clothe our nakedness;"
Hele 6:13 "Behold their women did toil and spin, and did make all manner of cloth, of fine-twined linen and cloth of every kind, to clothe their nakedness. "
Ether 10:24 "And they did have silks, and fine-twined linen; and they did work all manner of cloth, that they might clothe themselves from their nakedness."
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
@Rypaul5217 silk in Meso-America? lol. Anyone with a rudimentary level of intelligence will know by now that the BoM is fake. Since Meso-Americans had zero knowledge of silk production as it was for centuries a carefully guarded secret of the ancient Chinese. And no circumstantial evidence like the mulberry plants and silkworms being found in the Americas. BoM = conman job 101.
brandenburg2388 3 days ago
@brandenburg2388 I dont know...why should they engrave on gold plates more than twice, just to say that their women made clothing so that they should not be naked? ..lol.
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB
Ironjagg 4 days ago
@Ironjagg U must be talking about life at your home, because you don't have a clue or anything to back up what you just said, pal.
LDS4Life71 4 days ago
@LDS4Life71 just a joke .do u ever watch southpark ?
Ironjagg 3 days ago
@Ironjagg ----yeah I have seen some of southpark, (not all) some of which are rather rediculous. others are funny, and others make a point.
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
@LDS4Life71 Which of any Jew invented steel swords before anybody? Laban? 1st Nephi 4:9 "And I beheld his (Laban) sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel."
I have to say this the kid had some imagination. Its when you see how Smith uses these "steel swords” in his novel ie. cutting off arms of his enemies that gives him away.
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@Rypaul5217 Get over yourself. The sword of Laban is a reality, and you will be so sorry you didn't get to know the true God of this earth. You do not know the God of the bible, and you're completely ignorant.
LDS4Life71 4 days ago
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Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@LDS4Life71--- have you even read Joseph Smith story novel? See Ether 7:9 "Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords OUT OF STEEL for those whom he had drawn away with him;" Steel? Way back 4000 years ago?? Everybody in the BOM can make weapons of steel. Steel swords, Steel bows. centimers? The kid was only a 7th grader who simply didnt know what real steel was and wrote a novel about such steel swords. In his story they even "drew out" swords.
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@LDS4Life71 well its obvious fiction for a man name Shiz to have his head cut off and Joseph Smith still narrating his last living and breathing drama. lol
--
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yeah..knowing that you only have a fiction story,
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is like falling into a pit without a ladder.
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
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Don't forget to join the Worldwide YouTube Boycott Every Sunday and the Weekend of Feb 18 & 19th, don't log in to your account during this time and also make your videos private, YT relies heavily on advertising revenue so if we all do this they will lose out big time, spread the word...BOYCOTT!
blackmamba54321 4 days ago
Rypaul, wherever you are, is still an IDIOT, and won't answer our questions.
LDS4Life71 5 days ago
@LDS4Life71 --- yeah well name calling would work except you forgot to raise your hand up at me....lol ...this way you could see me run and hide behind a bush shaking and trembling...ooooooo
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@Rypaul5217 STOP WITH THE DODGING. I ALREADY ASKED YOU AND I QUOTE FOR THE-FIFTH-TIME "WHY DO YOU IGNORE DNA'S DISAPPROVAL OF ADAM AND EVE"? Quit PLAYING around and answer the bloody question. Want it simpler? FIne. Leave aside the "archeological findings" BS, and all the Joseph Smith garbage and ANSWER, FOR THE LAST TIME: There different types of DNA that are NOT alike and from different regions which debately questions the existence of Adam and Eve, WHY DO YOU IGNORE THIS condemn LDS for this?
blackmamba54321 5 days ago
@blackmamba54321 it's true. Rypaul is the real shit-for-brains! He condemns all of christianity with his double standards.
LDS4Life71 5 days ago
@LDS4Life71 ---gee I love your use of language. I'm sure everybody here can see YOUR fruits. I suppose your cult gives you a purpose. I dont know.
The point is you dont have a brain...lol
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@blackmamba54321 hey I have already answer it. Twice even.
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@Rypaul5217 No. You avoided the question. Twice even. Hell, thrice. You are a deciever. You are double standard.
blackmamba54321 4 days ago
@blackmamba54321 Who wrote the book of Genesis? So is our argument about Moses or Jo Smith who added 15 BoM passages right into the last chapter of the Bible's book of Genesis about himself? (see J.Smith's transl. Gen. ch 50) Clearly this added section is his own molochie use of "fruit of thy loins.. fruit of the loins of" over and over, you should count them yourself, and behold, its also in 2 Nephi 3..proof that a 7th grader wrote it, twas not the way Moses wrote, not by a long shot.
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@Rypaul5217 Decievers like you don't have a brain. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and the book of Mormon is absolutely the word of God. God revealed it to all of us, that read it and pray for the truth. WE ALL have a more competent brain that your weak feeble intellect.
LDS4Life71 4 days ago
@Rypaul5217 And wherever you are. YOU are the IDIOT. not me
LDS4Life71 4 days ago
@LDS4Life71 Well, I suppose that in Joseph's book of Ether...some 4000 years ago... they also had steel swords. lol... [ common get a brain ] The kid wrote his own 7th grade storybook.
Rypaul5217 3 days ago
@blackmamba54321 The DNA study was not done to condemn you personally, nor was it trying to patronize you, or undermine your religious beliefs. If you are missing the information about the DNA matter and what it proves, then you are NOT looking at the evidence objectively, & simply need to think, how could a married 24 year
old write a 7th grade novel? Yes its possible & very likely the case here, for there is more evidence that Jo Smith was faking it than to have actually found golden plates.
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@LDS4Life71 ok so just where is this so called record? yup ---I thought so...you ve got nothing.
Eventually you will get it. You're simply in a 19th century cult, nothing more.
Cults change the meaning of reality into a fantasy (in this case, a mere storybook novel--) Its like your a spinning like a top all for nothing, and with nothing...Its sad.
I can only hope that you are happy without any brains.
Rypaul5217 5 days ago
@Rypaul5217 You simply belong to a 20th centruy cult of lies. You are not born again, and You are the one living a fantasy oh shit-for-brains!
LDS4Life71 5 days ago
@Rypaul5217 There won't be any eventually I'll get it. I already get it. YOU are COMPLETE DOCILE IDIOT, and YOU DO NOT KNOW THE GOD OF THE BIBLE.
The apostacy and restoration of the church that Christ founded is completely biblical.
Isaiah 29:13-14, Revelation 14:6-7, Daniel 2, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 1 Corinthians 15.
It is clear you don't understand the resurrection of the dead, and your impossible changing goo jebus is about as stupid as you are.
LDS4Life71 5 days ago
@LDS4Life71 yup, you're absolutely right --- Our God is not your God...(our God is a Holy fire, which is and always will be an eternal spirit---is the only God) God never was a human planetary being or creature of any form or limitations, nor is He one of many gods who is also said to have come down and had sex with Mary? (Wow!) And now has many wives in heaven? Really? Nah, your idea of many gods is mere fictious make believe like pagan beliefs in the Greek and Roman gods of Zeuz and Apollo.
Rypaul5217 4 days ago
@Rypaul5217 Enough already Rypaul.
blackmamba54321 4 days ago
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Rypaul5217 1 week ago
Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and no matter what rypaul says out of his behind. Joseph smith still translated a portion of ancient central american history into English from an Semitic tongue.
LDS.org
for the truth
LDS4Life71 1 week ago 2
@LDS4Life71---Joseph words are like spegetti with ragoo sauce. lol only you have to suck in his long spegetti noodle for 10 whole minuets before you get some of the tomata sauce...lol
Behold. Behold insomuch..wherefore, behold...behold...insomuch..wherefore...and it came to pass, that, behold...and it came to pass, behold! And everybody who wrote the book of Mormon spoke like this? I mean who did this kid think he was kidding?
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 You got nothing. Your words are rubbish.
LDS4Life71 1 week ago
@LDS4Life71 --- Its like Joseph Smith must say everything 3 to 6 times just to make one point and then go back and write the same thing all over again, because he wanted to make it sound better.lol His writing style is so overt, its like taking cerand wrap and wrapping your own salad bowl over and over again, until the reader is smothered in it. and then tosses it over and over, so to elaborate on what he just wrote! Somebody please! turn off the focet!
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@LDS4Life71 --- Joseph storybook is like a flea lands on the elephant and then the elephant swims across the sea.. litterally.. RoFL!
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 You still stuck on Dr. Seuss? Go figure. Joseph Smith translated a record, and that record fulfilled biblical prophecy. You scoff only at your own demise.
LDS4Life71 1 week ago
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Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@blackmamba54321 see 2 Nephi 33:6 so does this mean that Nephi was a Christian?
I rest my case.
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 You know dang well what Im asking here. All that 'moses and jews have hebrew dna' hoopla is BESIDE the point of my question. Step by step now...why do YOU, claim WHOLE heartely, that dna proves LDS wrong, when U KNOW that DNA also "proves" that there is no Adam and Eve. I will NOT answer your question until you have answered mine.
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
@blackmamba54321 Jews we have proof of even without DNA (this a no brainer in fact) The facts are so abundant with antiquity that using DNA would be rather rediculous, like I said before, there is no argument. There is plenty of archelogical evidence and cities of the Bible found, thousands of manuscripts, etc, but however, there is all the reason in the world to doubt the Book of Mormon to be anything historic, and that its just a piece of fiction, which is the focus of our debate.
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 For the love of GOD! Did you READ my first comment? Its NOT an argument. For the fourth time answer the QUESTION, Why do you WILLINGLY ignore that DNA "proves" that there is no Adam and Eve and have the audacity to use it against LDS? Or answer me this...why wont answer the questiom??? Simply stating we believe that moses was hebrew and all that shinanigans is all distractions! Stop dodging and answer. Or do you not want to...
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
@blackmamba54321 Again there is no argument so serously this is a mute point--because the evidence that there was a Moses is Documented in Jewish history---why Even Jesus quoted Moses. so was Christ a liar?
but on a local note If you read my answer to your question...you would know that Moses = Hebrew DNA = Genesis = Adam and Eve..ok so I have already answered your question. What seems to be your problem?
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@blackmamba54321---Again, I ask you..where in the Bible is there any mention of "ANOTHER" promise land? There is nothing in the Old Testament, and none of the Apostes ever mention this other promise land. This idea of Smith was merely fictional.(As I said, a clone of the original Genesis-Abraham story.) Joseph's book is only a 19th Century novel. There was only one promise land concerning God and his people. To say that there is another is to pretend to be another Moses.
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 and you are STILL avoiding the question. I will not debate you on anything till you asnswer...or do u not want to?
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
@blackmamba54321 Your argument has no merrit, sir, Jews have Hebrew DNA. Moses was Hebrew, Moses wrote Genesis-etc. The proof of Moses is the Hebrew nation which is visible even today. The proof the Jews are that History is both cultural and recorded antiquity...There is no argument...thats the point... What you guys have IS NOTHING. So now you are tossed all about looking for some pieces of straw to put back into the strawman. but the truth that its all a big lie will always blow it away.
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 BY THAT LOGIC FOREST GUMP IS THE GOSPEL TRUTH!
Bureyeanne 1 week ago
412 people can't see the light :)
DaSticksanStonesClub 1 week ago in playlist Liked videos
Okay...so do Mormons actually believe Native Americans were descendants from Israel...and that one tribe got rid of the other and was punished by God and their skin was changed? Just curious.
TheJayWar 1 week ago
@TheJayWar
The Lamanites of the Book of Mormon are descendants of Israel (see Book of Mormon Title Page).
The Nephites were completely wiped out. (Mormon 6:1)
Punished by God (Jeremiah 44:13).
The mark of Cain is understood to be dark skin. (Genesis 9:25 and Alma 3:6).
If I were you, I'd read the references for myself because this is very deep. Also the most important belief is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and He loves us and we love Him.
MsEndure2end 1 week ago
@MsEndure2end Ya but...DNA testing can make that story completely made up
TheJayWar 1 week ago
@TheJayWar
I believe that God's word is much more reliable than man's studies.
MsEndure2end 1 week ago
@Blackmamba54321 Jesus paid the price, not a prophet dude. No matter who he claims himself to be, he did not pay for anything. In fact Jo Smith boasted that he had done a greater work than Jesus and his apostles, (huh?)...but Jesus said "The sheep do not hear a stranger.." we dont hear Jo Smith because...Jesus said "My sheep hear MY voice and I call them out by name and they follow ME."
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 "Jesus paid the price, not a prophet dude", Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? Where have I or anyone in this forum or any forum claim that we reach salvation through a prophet? A prophet is there to lead. That is all. We have already refutted that so called 'boast'. For the third time, stay on subject and answer the question.
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
@blackmamba54321 That line about a prophet puts the follower completely off the hook. Ya see all the texts were written by prophets, so nothing in the scriptures matters because Jesus did everything so we thus don't have to do anything. In essence it is the gospel of I can have everything for nothing.
Bureyeanne 1 week ago
@Bureyeanne lol then they use these scriptures to their own liking...I love the double standar-err I mean the Christ like attrubutions towards everyone..especailly LDS...
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
@blackmamba54321 Then why do we need Joseph Smith? Isnt Jesus the only answer for saving a man's soul?
And where in the Bible is there any metion of "another" promise land? There is nothing in the old testament, and none of the Apostes ever mention another promise land...Are we to believe in someone elses fantasy? How can a fantasy book be true without question, if there was no Biblical bases for it? Could it be just an imatation? a clone of the Genesis-Abraham story?
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 There are several references to the other records in the Bible. In fact there are too many to list here.
Bureyeanne 1 week ago
@Bureyeanne Um so what are these many books--too many that the Bible mentions---that you cant list here---say? I dont know, who does? (um surely you could mention just 5 of them..)
Well I guess anyone can make it up as he goes along...sure why not, who will dare question an idiot?
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
LDS4Life71 1 week ago
@LDS4Life71 ah this thing again?...looking over glasses...have you ever read your own book?
2 Nephi 25:18
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@LDS4Life71 Calm down LDS4Life... I'm LDS too, the problem is that hatred is a form of sin. We can however have a debate that does not relly on hate and anger. Let us be peaceful about this... Keep the anger on the downlow, we dont need sin within a simple conversation over the internet.
trumpetboy262 1 week ago
@trumpetboy262 Rypaul isn't looking for truth, but is a stumbling block to people. He just sits and trolls this page. He doesn't understand that the prophets did know Jesus Christ, and especially his name. and yes the Israelite nation were true "chjristians."
Something our friend, rypaul, cannot comprehend.
LDS4Life71 1 week ago
@LDS4Life71---that a man can write his own book is what you cannot comprehend.
I mean its obviously too lazy dont you think? That a great journey across two vast oceans by Lehi family boat took only one line of script for the whole voyage, (from when Nephi took over), its like blip! and they're there.lol..but if you read Jacob 5 (that is if you can get through all the verbage) it took an amazing 77 verses to explain how a tree in a vineyard is purged to bring forth more fruit..RoFL!
get real
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 No, troll, it's not and on the contrary it's not a story book. Joseph didn't write it. It is impossible that he could have.
you get real
RoFL!
LDS4Life71 1 week ago
@LDS4Life71 "....the prophets did know Jesus Christ and especially His name". I gotta disagree with your statement. Please show us a verse from the Old Testament that specifically mentioned the name Jesus Christ or His equivalent Hebrew name of Yeshua? The ancient prophets only had a foreknowledge of the coming of the Messiah but His name was kept a mystery from them by God. The name Jesus was first revealed by the angel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary (Luke1: 31).
brandenburg2388 5 days ago
@brandenburg2388 The writings of SEVERAL early Christian Fathers including Clement of Rome and others accused the Jews of removing the name of Jesus Christ from their record. The name WAS there, and they removed it. This is why the Book of Mormon still knows the truth, and the bible is full of faults just like you just mentioned. Because of the bible, whichever one you use, you still stumble.
You obviously need to do more research. The BYprofessor did a video set on it.
LDS4Life71 5 days ago
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@brandenburg2388 The writings of SEVERAL early Christian Fathers including Clement of Rome and others accused the Jews of removing the name of Jesus Christ from their record. The name WAS there, and they removed it. This is why the Book of Mormon still knows the truth, and the bible is full of faults just like you just mentioned. Because of the bible, whichever one you use, you still stumble.
You obviously need to do more research. The BYprofessor did a video set on it.
LDS4Life71 5 days ago
@brandenburg2388 The writings of SEVERAL early Christian Fathers including Clement of Rome and others accused the Jews of removing the name of Jesus Christ from their record. The name WAS there, and they removed it. This is why the Book of Mormon still knows the truth, and the bible is full of faults just like you just mentioned. Because of the bible, whichever one you use, you still stumble.
You obviously need to do more research. The BYprofessor did a video set on it.
LDS4Life71 5 days ago
@LDS4Life71 there is absolutely no proof of the Jews ever tampering with the Hebrew Scriptures. This was not something that they could fiddle with as they liked since it was regarded as the very words spoken by Jehovah.
brandenburg2388 5 days ago
@brandenburg2388 The early Christian Father's writings are proof enough for me. Stop dancing like an idiot like Rypaul. They knew the name Jesus before JC was ever even conceived and then they removed it from their record just as the early Christian fathers are accusing them of.
LDS4Life71 5 days ago
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@Blackmamba54321 God created all things (and He only) Man is the highest of his creation, but sin is in the world, Paul writes "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and "the wages of sin is death" Hereby we need to come to God and ask him to save us from our sinful delema, and forgive us, surrender to God completely with all of our heart and ask Jesus to come in and take over, hence we become born again.
Jesus said " I am the door, he that enters by me, shall be saved."
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
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Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Blackmamba54321 Having said that, Genesis is crucial to the existance of the nation of Isreal, from Abraham, the promise of God about one promise land.the land of Cannan which is why the promise land was so important to his people---however in veiw of Adam sin.Man's fallen state is related to his nature, be it primitive or savage, or evil in heart, Man needs to know God, but sin separates all men from knowing God, and the law is its revealer, pointing to our guilt, and need for saving grace.
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 Once again, stay on subject. You are wasting time by giving me pointless lectures I already know. The red hearring shows.
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
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My Jesus was the Son of God just as he said that we are sons of God. Why? Because scripture teaches us the God is the Father of spirits!!!! Do we have spirits? Yes! Does Jesus have a spirit? Yes! Is Satan a spirit? Yes, sorry about that but he is also a spirit. He was a spirit in heaven with all the spirits, or sons and daughters of God, and was cast out by his rebellious actions (Rev 12:12-15). It is Biblical.
bmaf.org
for the truth
LDS4Life71 1 week ago
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Lies that are conjured up by apostates do not constitute evidence. They remain lies. Joseph Smith however did not lie, and neither did the eleven witnesses that held and and seen the plates with the appearance of gold.
LDS4Life71 1 week ago
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2 Kings 2:23-24 NKJV
Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
stinnetbennet 1 week ago
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Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and the book of Mormon is a true translation from an ancient Semitic text.
lds.org
bmaf.org
for the truth
LDS4Life71 1 week ago
@Rypaul5271 You are once again taking things out of context. Please put the ENTIRE QUOTE next time...
blackmamba54321 2 weeks ago
@blackmamba54321 --quote what? I dont know what you are talking about sir.
all you have to do is go to Irr org (type in search window there) or utlm org or exmormons com or even momonthink com to find this or any of this information. and I think that I already posted a site to the last person I conversed with in here.
Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217 Your Brigham Young comment. Its out of context...of course.
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 I have a question for you, not a debate-why do you use DNA as one of your "greatest" arguments when it is just as "damaging" (not really) to your beliefs? Such as the debatable existance of Adam and Eve? Do you willingly ignore that?
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
@blackmamba54321 To debate the book of genesis is to debate the existance of Moses who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. But since we both agree that Moses was a Prophet - and chosen deliverer by God, it would be pointless to refute Moses and since j.Smith also wrote about Moses and about Adam and Eve.then its a mute point. The focus is on J Smith, his book, his teachings on other gods, if he was false on what he claims, then all of his story is also fakery. self apppointed and deceptive.
Rypaul5217 1 week ago
@Rypaul5217 You are dodging the question. It was a simple question really. Instead of answering it head on, you try to divert it to joseph smith. I dont care what the focus is, I asked you why you willingly ignore the "fact" the DNA "proves" that there is no Adam and Eve. Stay on subject and answer again...truthfully.
blackmamba54321 1 week ago
@M424Filmcast---Well all the sources here at this one particular web site are well documented, year by year covering when and where and with what plural wife Smith had with some of the history and circumstances about each. some of the very words of J Smith himself is documented so that the person how is studing it can get a grasp about what Smith was saying about poligamy. The list is long and full, more so than any other place I have studied concerning this issue.
Take your time there.
Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217 Don´t you have a job or something better to spend your time?
dorisfenella 2 weeks ago
wow rarely have i seen someone so full of shit
Briannadelgado 2 weeks ago
I have observed one amusing and quizzical thing talking to mormons, on the controversial elements (polygamy, attiude to blacks, weird teachings like moon being inhabited, etc) there are 2 camps. Those who flat-out deny them, and those who try to build an argument to justify them. And the best of all are those who start in one camp, then move on to the other mid argument. its wonderful :)
alfiejames8 2 weeks ago
@alfiejames8 This sounds like the typical critic. Create a premise as if it's the only possibility, then claim that any argument against your railings is somehow only justification. Then of course claiming that we all just "run away".
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@M424Filmcast really? well Jesus placed great importance on knowing Him, even after He ascended, so you're arguing that point with Him. want scripture for that?
alfiejames8 2 weeks ago
@alfiejames8 "[do we]...the know[ ] of Jesus personally?"
My ..oh my...I don't know about you ...but when was Jesus last on the earth so you can speak to him "personally" and know him personally? I know I love my saviour Jesus Christ...I know I follow him and preach him as does our theology...but this simpleton..needs confirmation for some reason of our own PERSONAL relationship...[scratches head]...[shakes head]...
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@M424Filmcast but He is here in spirit, and lives in His born-again believers, that is how we know, commune and live with Him. Its stuff found in the epistles mate :) but not in your church apparently
alfiejames8 2 weeks ago
@alfiejames8 It is very much in our church. You simply deny that.
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@M424Filmcast what is very much in your church?
alfiejames8 2 weeks ago
@alfiejames8 Don't be thick. Read your comment, then read my response.
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@M424Filmcast there has been lots of comments, I have no way of knowing which such a non-distinct statement was replying to, call it think if you like
alfiejames8 2 weeks ago
@alfiejames8 It's not that tough alfie. Just look at that particular thread. I can honestly say I don't think you are stupid.
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@M424Filmcast --- I gave you all the sources to study...I have to go and make dinner now, but I will be back later tonight, but I will want to get your feed back on the history of Joseph Smith poligamy chronology, or if you can produce a better site I would like to see it. This one in my opinion is pretty conclusive and academic. full of sources. and documentation.
Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
And the answer to all the factors outlined in the video is simple: work of plagarism.
alfiejames8 2 weeks ago
@1overthehillsfaraway He was born on a farm. He owned a farm. He traveled on horseback 300's of miles. And you post that he never worked an honest day in his life? You will be hard pressed to find any other church who's leaders don't ask for payment for their services.
Bureyeanne 2 weeks ago
Mormon Apologetic Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect:
Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?
Carl Mosser and Paul Owen
1997 Evangelical Theological Society Far West Annual Meeting
April 25, 1997
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
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I'm going to continue quoting the words of the LORD until you stop posting. The book is 100% authentic part of ancient meso american history.
americantestament.blogspot.com
for the truth
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
@LDS4Life71 how is this spam?
Bureyeanne 2 weeks ago
@Bureyeanne "I feel much betta, I think I'll go for a walk now."
:)
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
@LDS4Life71 I see your comments "spammed" all the time.
Bureyeanne 2 weeks ago
@Bureyeanne They spam them because they can't handle the truth and it makes them angry.
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
@Bureyeanne Story book? Joseph wrote a story book? what was it called?
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
2 Nephi 25:26
The true gospel of Jesus Christ was restored by the True Prophet of God, Joseph Smith, he was ordained with Power and authority from on HIGH, and given Joseph Smith to restore the Church of GOD.
FAIRLDS.org
for the truth
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
@LDS4Life71 There are thousand of these so called restorationists groups throughout the US, all say that they have the restored gospel, and that they are the only true chruch because of it....so which one of these groups think that they have the proper authority? all of them...lol..geez luweez now what?
Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217 I know you have said this arguement before. You're a broken record. It's been disputed. You got nothing, but false accusations and assumptions. the Tanners are liars, and are burning in hell.
Quote by the Prophet Brigham Young.
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
@LDS4Life71 False Prophet Bring'em Young
tattoodfreeek 2 weeks ago
@tattoodfreeek TRUE PROPHET BRIGHAM YOUNG!
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
@LDS4Life71 I think you'll find I'm right, I mean, Adam-God?? Please!!!
tattoodfreeek 2 weeks ago
@tattoodfreeek FAIRLDS.org
for the truth
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
@LDS4Life71 for the truth approved by the LDS cult you mean
tattoodfreeek 2 weeks ago
@tattoodfreeek The apostles of christ were called a cult too, wannabe christian.
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago
@tattoodfreeek FAIR is not run by, nor approved by the church.
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@M424Filmcast and another apologist enters the room!!!
tattoodfreeek 2 weeks ago
@tattoodfreeek they are not even apologists...lol
nasticanasta 2 weeks ago
@nasticanasta Acts 7:51-53 “Ye STIFFNECKED and uncircumcised IN HEART and EARS, YE DO ALWAYS RESIST the HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, SO DO YE. Which of the PROPHETS have not your fathers PERSECUTED and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have RECIEVED the law BY THE DISPOSITION OF ANGELS, and have NOT KEPT IT”.
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@M424Filmcast lol now your posting stuff about yourself.. how odd...and I haven't called anyone a name here.. but you guys have.. check yourself first... lol look at your yelling and caps.. it's hilarious watching you crash and burn,you received it from a lying kid...mine comes from God. I just love when Judge Judy says," you know how to tell if a teen is lying, their mouths are moving" lol.. so full of hatred you are making spelling errors and yelling...the sign of a religious nut
nasticanasta 2 weeks ago
@nasticanasta Funny, you cannot stand when scripture is used against your tactics. Weak. And where are my spelling errors?
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@M424Filmcast ---The LDS dont even know who the Holy Ghost is..much less who the Lord God of the OT is...um Brigham Young says The Holy Ghost is the arch angel Michael, JOD Vol 1 pg 51 ] others say he is another son of God. so which is it? how can you be saved by an angel? The Holy Spirit is God, which is the Holy Ghost. according to the scriptures. He is the only one whom you can blaphemy. is a sin against God himself.
Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217 RE :Using extra-scriptural resources to attack LDS theology LDS theology is only based on the following: The Bible The Book of Mormon The D&C The PofGP And General Conferance talks that eventually get sustained as revelation to be binding on the saints (i.e. The Proclamation to the World) These are called the standard works - and if it doesn't come from any of these..then it is just speculation and "theory" - not doctrine nor binding on the saints
M424Filmcast 2 weeks ago
@tattoodfreeek More like a thick cement wall. STill banging your head against it?
LDS4Life71 2 weeks ago