The Great Debate: Thom Hartmann vs Michael Medved (5/10)

[KWtones]

@th3grjuan yes (as long as we un-subsidize the meat industry, make ivy-league-level education available to all without the mark up, standardize top notch health care and we all make enough money to do what we love as a profession)...your highest aspiration is to be a janitor who makes 40k/year?  Fine...I'll be the scientist/engineer/lawyer/doct­or/plumber (fill in trade skill) who makes 75...meanwhile, meat/education/health industry owners still make more than the rest of us...who's losing, here?

[noldorian86]

8:06 pathethic morons

[micflor531313]

Big corporations do NOT exploit working americans, GOVERNMENT UNIONS Do. In Illinois the teachers unions donate far more than anybody else to Democratis campaigns. Their reward? They pay NO social security, NO medicare, and LITTLE into their own pensions, and get LOTTO pensions of 1,000 to 1,400 a WEEK and more. LIVING off the working people. It's the great scheme of corruption in history, and media cater to teachers and won't expose it.

[packerfan748]

this debate is so pointless, how are you supposed to just guarentee a living wage? Force business and unions to pay more? I wish they would explain some of these ideas more rather than an idealistic battle about whether or not they should or shouldnt, last time i checked most people dont work for minimum wage, its like a very small % of the population

[Newspeakgeneration]

so.. the government gave corporations billions of dollars in security blankets..and the democrats claim it was the free market.. yea right.. grow the fuck up.

[estrahota]

Most Unions breed entitlement, it is a rare niche or industry that uses the union today effectively.  The unions had their day when Robber Barons were lashing the backs of abused laborers, but today we have OSHA and other Federally run organizations that keep the employer in check. We have guidelines for what classifies as full time, overtime, and hiring/firing principles. Other than the fallacy of keeping wages higher what does the Union offer? And what are high wages doing in the UAW???

[leftwingersareweak]

Yes...those unions are going to be so valuable when government employees find their pensions being reduced significantly in the coming years. Ha.

[th3gr8juan]

So the Republican Teddy Roosevelt says that I should make enough to put filet mignon on my table everyday, send my child to the best schools and Ivy League Universities, have top notch health care, go to Europe every summer for vacation then retire in Australia all on the salary of a janitor. 

[onfirealex]

@th3gr8juan Nice job putting words in his mouth, fucktard.

[th3gr8juan]

@onfirealex I see you have the grasp of some pretty big words yourself. Did you have to look that one up the in the dictionary?

[cruiscinlan]

mr. medved seems to want to restore the economy on the backs of poorly paid workers

everything was stolen in the 70s and 80s with the dumbing down of the population, lulling us with the tv watch george carlin's commentary; hilarious, but bang on

[cruiscinlan]

mr. medved seems to want to restore the economy on the backs of poorly paid workers

everything was stolen in the 70s and 80s with the dumbing down of the population, lulling us with the tv

[cruiscinlan]

mr. medved seems to want to recover the company on the backs of poorly paid workers

[TheFreethinker71]

@DartmouthDem First off, they are my employees, not my co-workers. Secondly, I look at GOOD employees as an asset & BAD employees as a liability. When unions make it impossible to fire anyone, I am stuck employing bad workers forever and they drag the whole company down. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. To consider every employee or co-worker (as you put it) as an asset rewards workers for doing just enough to not get fired. You will never own a sucessful biz using that strategy.

[lamiac2411]

IDK much about unions but I will sum up what I do know. I worked construction for $10 per hour and my friend worked construction for $22.50!! We did the same job. The only difference?? He was a union member! I am sorry but I agree with Unions because these multi million dollar coorperations will pay fucking slave wages if they could get way with it!! If it werent for unions no1 would make enough $ for descent blue collar jobs.

[TheFreethinker71]

@lamiac2411 Aren't you free to quit your crappy $10/hr job? No one was holding a gun to your head to keep that job. I'm an employer and unions just wind up costing more money in the end for the consumer. I don't trust any system (union) that pays people based off how long they have been at a job as opposed to how well they do the job. All that does is encourage mediocrity in the work place. But if you just look at the wage rate and not at the opportunity to advance, then I would not hire you.

[TheFreethinker71]

@lamiac2411 If it weren't for unions, we would have a lower unemployment rate because two people would be employed at $10/hr instead of one at $22.50/hr. Or are you one of those people who would rather have fewer people making union wages and a lot more people unemployed as a result? I swear you union types would rather have no factory in your town where no one has any jobs instead of a non-union factory where there are lots of jobs. Great economic thinking man!

[lamiac2411]

@TheFreethinker71 It don't even matter any more anyways:) There is no factories here in the U.S anyways we manufacture pretty much nothing. They sent em all overseas!

[exenrontexas]

@michigan6443 Your comment only proves my point that those who listen to conservative talk radio have their head up Cheney's butt. It seems that YOUR head is so far up there that you cannot hear the truth about the GOP, BUSH and the teabaggers. IF you cannot support America style democracy why don't you MOVE OUT of MY America, numbnuts.

[shroomduke]

You don't need a Union, Uncle Corporation will take good care of you... hahahahaha by working you straight into an early grave...

[Newspeakgeneration]

@shroomduke well it was henry ford who actually made 8 hour work days and weekends.. and he was a huge corporate guy.. soo whats your point?

[m1ndfr34k117]

@shroomduke Unions are good when they're needed. Sometimes they aren't needed though and just make unjust demands when nothing bad is happening to the workers.

[bonfirejovi]

"You can't have a economic recovery without decent wages"

That is a demand side fallacy through and through. Higher wages means higher production costs and compliance costs which means more business failures. Look at the EPI study on how minimum wage laws destroy small business. The economy is driven by savings and investment not demand and consumption as the US is finding out the hard way (stimulus fail). If you want to make the rich invest then increase consumption tax on certain items.

[bonfirejovi]

Democracy is mob rules. It is not a perfect system (like capitalism) but it is the best we have especially when it is combined with a written constitution to protect people from the tyranny of the majority thus becoming a republic. Choice in the workplace should determined by the individual NOT the majority or the mob.

Hartmann is just guilty as Medved of using certain words, whether they be 'socialism' 'corporations' 'democracy' etc... to denote absolutes. It is a childish tactic.

[anon0019]

Medved is right about card check. Unions need to work for the people they represent. Unions thusly, should not be put in a position where they can exert their influence to bully a worker to agree with them. It's unlawful political manipulation and flies in the face of what unions stand for... which is protecting the rights of the worker. I didn't even realize there was a debate about this issue. it seems very plain and straightforward.

[byronnuffer]

6:20 mark is beautiful... Michael is just grasping for anything... How many times has he changed the subject bc he cant answer the question ?

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

@byronnuffer Mark is arguing the pathetic case of wage entitlement. Also, any one else notice how near the end of this thing the Union Boss moderator intercedes around 7:20 prior to Medved's response to Mark's pro-Union\anti-Consumer rant and changes the subject?

[megagagnon1]

you work for a company, you're in the minority of people who want a union, if that's known to the company, the company will find some excuse to let you go. at the frontier casino when they voted for the union, within a year all of the dealers who organized it were gone.

[unclelight13]

Medved is the right wings nigger!

[tonyg0123]

6:20 "union jobs are good paying jobs". hey Thom, how are the unions doing in detroit? how is the school system with the teacher's union or what about the auto industry? hmmm...?

[jahellaspartan]

@tonyg0123

Answer!

Go ask your friendly CEO's & CFO's at their high rises at GMC, Chrysler, and Ford! They'll be more than happy to tell you and others fairytale lies when they're the sons of a bitches that purposely planned to bankrupt their corporations in order to screw over and destroy the people of Detroit! All in the name to profit by controlling its workers, bribing and corrupting union leaders, and more! Then get paid for it too! (a bail out for their bonuses) What a deal!

[schmij8]

Don't forget the steel industry. Notice how Thom doesn't explain the circumstances behind why the employees were fired for trying to unionize. Again, he's giving shocking numbers with no data or reason behind the numbers. Thom's a blowhard.

[roflmao113]

VV proof that politics is almost like a religion and that people will support their party no matter what.

[Rennpanzer]

7:55 Proof that Mr. Medved is an obfuscative, neogone, stooge.

[jahellaspartan]

@Rennpanzer

....You got that right Rennpanzer! It's amazing the more that Micheal tries to make his points and emphasizes on dominating the floor ... he looks and acts like a weak opponent on the issues! Thom makes tremendous sense!

[ohshiite]

Doe's everyone want hope and change? Guaranteed it start's in your home with your kids... LOve, respected, (even for your elders)... No more fatherless kids, single mothers. You start from there. I'm sure you can get rid of some of this BS.... Just me )

[Tide007007]

This whole debate is tiresome after awhile. In life, a balance has to be achieved. You can't spend all your time working, or playing, you can't have the government run all forms of businesses, or vice versa , etc...you need private motive to build a sustainable insurance business model, and govt regulation to make it fair. Talking abt unions, the average wage for GM production workers were USD 40+ to 50+ per hr.... which is part of their downfall..

[jackdav34]

I agree with you.

[Konformation07]

and he keeps going around the questions

[serpentineflame]

Actually...Actually...it was the Bush Administration.

[Entropy56]

Unions are evil.

[jayrt71]

Limbaugh and Medved are big believers in, "If you keep telling a lie long enough, and if you can control the microphone, so that no one can prove that you are lying... the lie will be accepted as fact." We as Americans need to continue to expose these guys for the liars that they really are!

[mikejmcc1970]

I don't honestly get the impression that Medved knowingly lies...not that he isn't completely full of shite; however I do think he justifies his positions with the evidence of his success and thinks,"hey it worked for me you must be lazy".

He's not a bad guy in my opinion just wrong on almost every point starting with religion and ending with how the common man will feed himself and meet is basic needs.

[exenrontexas]

Just exactly like...JOSEPH GOEBBELS, the NAZI propaganda minister.

[delphiz99]

There is really no need to invoke the Nazis every time you disagree with somebody...

[exenrontexas]

I only do it when it fits and I do not think that Medved is a Nazi. He is a fascist without the anti-semitism like the NEOCONS. The NEOCON guru was Leo Strauss who came to America from Germany under a Rockefeller grant arranged by Carl Schmitt. Schmitt was the German lawyer for Prescott BUSH, Fritz Thyssen and...Adolf Hitler. Thyssen was the wealthy industrialist who financed Hitler's rise to power. Prescott was his business partner and Dubya's grandfather. Like Goebbels Medved is a liar.

[delphiz99]

I am afraid you did not get the point: the Nazi (or Goebbels) comparisons are overused and invoke emotional response. Have you ever lied in your life? It's probably safe to assume that yes (as did I or about everybody else); so, does it mean you are like Goebbels? It is obviously more to "being like Goebbels" than lying (or being short and lame). This rhetoric is unnecessary and usually backfires. As to being a fascist you obviously don't know the meaning of the word.

[exenrontexas]

Fascist comes from the Latin word "fasces" which mean to do or work; however, the fascist's father, Mussolini, said that it more properly should be called corporatism where government exists for the sake of large industrial corporations. When Medved practices his form of fascism, it more closely means NEOCONSERVATISM which suckles at the breast of corporate America. I met some of the NEOCONS when I worked at the sixth largest US corporation, ENRON CORP, which majorly funded their efforts.

[delphiz99]

OK as you know and intended fascist today comes with a lot of load. My point is that inflammatory rhetoric is not only unnecessary, but is actually detrimental to one's own position. If you noticed, Michael and Thom seem to like each other even as they disagree. So, calling Michael NeoCon is probably better. How it was at ENRON? Did they fail because of you ;-) ?

[exenrontexas]

I INTENDED it to be inflammatory. I have oftened listened to Medved's program (know the enemy) and it BECAUSE he is so much like the fascist that I say so. He blatantly LIES about the facts. He is politically motivated in most of his statements and when someone with real facts comes on his show he cuts them off. He is anti-American, anti-Constitution and anti-Christian which is what you would expect from a fascist. Neocons are fascists without the anti-semitism.

[exenrontexas]

He is some of the rationale. Christ said you should share your wealth, be overly generous, heal the sick, love your enemy, trust in the Lord. Medved says the opposite. The Constitution says that the government IS the PEOPLE. Medved want to tear DOWN the government. America stands for freedom and liberty. Medved stands for control and against free speech and the Fairness Doctrine. I am certain that indirectly Medved gets major support from large corporations because he is their mouthpiece.

[delphiz99]

My impressions about Medved's opinions does not coincide with yours. And I honestly don't understand what Lord Jesus Christ has to do with it... (Mussolini was a Christian, AFAIK)

[exenrontexas]

There are many who CLAIM to be religous or faithful for the POWER that comes with it. The fascists, the Nazis and the NEOCONS all claim to be doing God's will as did Herod and the Pharisees. The fact is just because someone CLAIMS to be religious does not make it so. We are told "ye shall know them by their works" and by that guidance. the NEOCONS are not only sinners (as I am) but also agents of Satan (as I am not). They do great evil and are no friend of America or the Lord.

[delphiz99]

Oh, now I get it, exenrontexas: there is a Satan, and Neocons are his agents (I presume because many are Jews). I wish you all the best (including getting into Paradise), but this is not a discussion I am interested in...

[exenrontexas]

Pity.

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

@exenrontexas Your comment is indicative of all flawed liberal assertions. It's short on facts and full of distortions. 1) Christ taught us to be generous with what we have on an individual charitable basis, he didn't lobby Caesar to create a welfare state. 2) The "Fairness Doctrine" and those who advocate it want to force people to pay to give voice to opposing viewpoints violates Free Speech.

[exenrontexas]

@johnsonfromwisconsin WRONG! And you illustrate the great evil that is pop conservative views. Christ taught us to give our coats and if that was not enough then give our shirts as well. Christians are to be modeled after Christ and he said we need to forsake EVERYTHING except him. YOU on the other hand support Caesars view which is...GREED.

The Fairness Doctrine applies to the AIRWAVES which are owned by the PEOPLE. Free Speech applies to printing presses and personal communication.

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

@exenrontexas Christ had the power to force people to give of their wealth, but He did not. Yet you seem to wish to enforce the ways of tyranny, which Christ did not.

Free speech applies to all media, not just the ones that are friendly to your own views. The "People's AirWave's" arguments is a non-starter given that radio bandwith is far more divisible than it was decades ago, and there are far more outlets nowdays. It's the typical liberal opposition to free speach of the opposition.

[exenrontexas]

@johnsonfromwisconsin WRONG! First of all IF you are a citizen of the United States YOU are REQUIRED to obey it's laws. You DO have the option of renoucning your citizenship and...LEAVING. I suggest you consider that option. There is NO FORCE WHATSOEVER involved.

The SCOTUS has ruled many times that free speech rules do NOT applied to broadcast media. The PEOPLE own the airwaves and they DO have a say on what the content is and governed by the FCC, the PEOPLES representatives.

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

@exenrontexas Where did I advocate breaking laws? Is it that disagreement constitutes breaking the law? Typical Liberal thinking there.

SCOTUS defended the Fairness Doctrine *only because bandwidth was limited. It isn't anymore, this isn't 1949. But lets be honest, your argument has nothing to do with limits of the radio spectrum, but only with your desire to silence those whom with you disagree. This is evi.

[exenrontexas]

@johnsonfromwisconsin WRONG! The Fairness Doctrine has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with bandwith. It is about the proper use of the PEOPLES airwaves that are leased to private enterprise conditional of serving the public good as determine by the PEOPLE and the FCC. I NEVER said I wanted to silence the brain dead, gravy sucking pigs on conservative radio. I ONLY want them to provide equal time for opposing views. THAT serves the public good.

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

@exenrontexas Christ had the power to force people to give of their wealth, but He did not. Yet you seem to wish to enforce the ways of tyranny, which Christ did not.

Free speech applies to all media, not just the ones that are friendly to your own views. The "People's AirWave's" arguments is a non-starter given that radio bandwith is far more divisible than it was decades ago, and there are far more outlets nowdays. It's the typical liberal oppesition to free speach of the opposition.

[martthesling]

ummm you make me laugh:) Corporatism: look it up before you open your mouth.

[jon1156]

Actually "fasces" are sticks or twigs, which are weak on their own, but strong when bundled together. Mussolini's symbol was a bundle of twigs with an ax blade sticking out of it. Fascism is all about uniting under a single banner - us versus them. Incidentally, the opposite of the conservative philosophy of individual rights over group rights.

[exenrontexas]

I recall one of the Enron management retreats that I worked at where some of the senior executives started a side discussion about the woeful state of American culture and some of them spoke admiringly about the concept of EUGENICS. In a sense, the NEOCONS support EUGENICS as in their response to Hurricane Katrina. Prescott BUSH was a strong supporter of EUGENICS and actually was instrumental in exporting those concepts to Germany. Eugenics is the philosophy behind Hitler's "Final Solution".

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

@exenrontexas you know, you speak of Christ, but you engage in bald-faced lying. how dissapointing....

[exenrontexas]

@johnsonfromwisconsin Romans 13, written to the faithful in ROME where Christians were being rounded up, wrap in freshly killed animal skins & fed in the Coluseum to wild animals, says that there is no authority except that which is established by God & if you go against that authority you are going against GOD. You may chose which ever path you follow but if you chose God's path it is the path of submission to HIS will, not the GOP nor the Tea Party nor the memory of the Satanist, Reagan.

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

@exenrontexas You sound just crazy. Are you saying that you are God?

[exenrontexas]

@johnsonfromwisconsin The Bible says that the word of God will seem like nonesense to those who belong to Satan.

[delphiz99]

I wouldn't put Limbaugh and Medved together. Whether you agree with him or not (and I agree with some points, and disagree with others), he is well-educated and well-spoken man. As to Limbaugh I tend to agree with Franken's opinion about him (and I am not a liberal - or a conservative for that matter).

[DaHonestAbe]

First Limbaugh, now Medved is blaming TARP on Obama. Sad!