Shorin Ryu Kusanku Kata

[gunblazingmutant]

Much different from the Isshinryu version

[nautilusagency]

It's entirely WRONG!

[rijnjlj]

Thank you for the performance. I studied under Kuda for 3 years in Okinawa. While most of these comments are less than positive, Sensei Kuda would most likely dismissed everyone who was critical with "do it better yourself"

[anaaman]

Thanks for sharing. This kata is performed poorly. Hi eyes are everywhere. Sad to see a high rank not focusing with his/her eyes where he or she should be focusing at. Sensei James Coffman will be saddened to see martial artist performing poor katas.

[Ebureto]

... Okinawan convention they cannot say that they teach Shorin-ryu Matsumura Seito. Whether they use that label behind closed doors or just when they're outside Okinawa is another thing entirely.

[Ebureto]

As far as surviving students of Master Soken teaching "Matsumura Seito" is concerned, I've been told by several people whom I trust and have no reason to lie to me that "nobody says Matsumura Seito on Okinawa anymore". That's why Kuda-sensei formed his Shorin-ryu Matsumura Kenpo group, Kise-sensei formed his Shorin-ryu Kenshinkan system, and Arakaki made his Shorin-ryu Shinbukan (I think?) system before he died. They all do (or did) what they do, but in the strictest sense according to...

[OkinawaShorinryu]

This is a good performance, thanks

[Ebureto]

... (or rather "some people") refer to are nothing more than very superficial personal, and perhaps idiosyncratic, changes that do not substantively alter the kata... and certainly not the content if you understand the kata at all. If you're looking for a "pure" form of MS, look at people (like the late Nishihira) who never studied with anyone but Soken. Kuda-sensei gets bashed by MS snobs who say that he studied too long with other masters like Nakamura, but hey, know what? So did Kise!

[Ebureto]

... one can compare all of Soken's senior students and p*ss and moan about how no one does/did it like Soken, but this does not necessarily make their karate any more or less "valid". This happened here in the USA in the first decade following Soken's passing when comparing two senior students of his. Again, a lack of cultural understanding. I have observed many hours of footage of Soken's senior students over the years as they became available, and all the "significant changes" that people....

[Ebureto]

First, nobody but (maybe) Nishihira Kosei could legitimately claim to teach "Matsumura Seito" on Okinawa after the passing of Soken Hohan... that's just the cultural convention in terms of passing on the system. Only people abroad, especially in the USA, use the term "Matsumura Seito" anymore, because there's a lack of cultural understanding. Second...

[joeykarateka]

@Ebureto I definitely agree that the differences seen amongst students of Soken does not invalidate or make their karate any less legitimate. That would be the case with just about every style there is, with the exception of "made up" styles that have arbitrarily changed kata with little or any consideration for bunkai by individuals without the wisdom/experience to alter kata. Along the same lines of thinking, just because the kata are slightly different doesn't mean that it is not...

[joeykarateka]

@Ebureto ...Matsumura Seito. Changing the kata doesn't make it a different style. Kise does claim, and rightly so, to teach Matsumura Seito, as to others in Okinawa. Slight variations in kata, yes most definitely, but "orthodox karate inspired by the teachings of Matsumura" (which is what Matsumura Seito means) is taught by many legitimate instructors in Japan and throughout the world.

[pamisterios]

in some ways it looks like tae kwon do. doesn't it?

[senseichief]

Very changed ката

[RoccoCypress]

this Matsumura Kenpo version of Shorin Ryu. Yuichi Kuda's style. Kuda learned from Hohan Sokon. This is closely related to Sokon Matsumura Seito style but not exactly the same. This was a clip from an old Panther Productions training video and is being performed at a slow speed so that the viewer can follow along.

[joeykarateka]

@RoccoCypress I think many are commenting on the uniqueness of the kata because Soken performed this kata very differently. Kuda apparently made more significant changes than most of the other Soken students that have passed it down so it does look very different from the majority of the kusanku versions that are more widely known. This is not a criticism, just an observation, it's different that's all.

[HKNatureHK]

wew

[faron27]

I learned Shōbayashi Shōrin-ryu from

Dan Williams

[robertvoice]

Karate is Not Japanese, is Okinawanese. From RyuKyu Kingdom. It belongs to japan, but is Not Japan.

[robertvoice]

I don't like Karate, BUT This guy moves very well, I can see clearly the Shaolin (shorin) influence and that's very good. And I can't understand why most of the karatecas deny the chinese origin. u.u

[joeykarateka]

Most experienced and knowledgeable karatekas of traditional styles do NOT deny but rather embrace our Chinese origin. It's those that took classes at McDojos that have no clue. Please do not generalize based on a few that don't really know karate. This kata is of Chinese origin but most of the movements are linear which is a Japanese influence.

[robertvoice]

@joeykarateka

Thanks for your good answer, my friend. At last a Karateka that doesn't need to offend. Thanks.

[joeykarateka]

I started checking out youtube to find old footage of old masters primarily, but I have the same observation. I think most of the posts are made by beginners or individuals with a need to experience talking down to others with the safety of anonimity. Very immature if you ask me. But once again, this is not representative of most mature and knowledgeable karatekas, I would not base my opinion of karatekas on youtube comments. It's a shame a few knuckle heads make us all look bad.

[ShorinRyuRonin]

@joeykarateka, McDojo's, that is hysterical, I love it.

[WolfDruid623]

@joeykarateka nicely put.

[jiggahippo]

looks more japanese than chinese. shorin is much more compact in movements.

[robertvoice]

@jiggahippo

Of Course, I don't say It Looks more chinese, I practice Traditional Kung Fu, Aikido, Boxing and Wing Chun And I see some movements that have clearly Chinese Influence. If all of you read the history you'll see the origin.

[jiggahippo]

Oh I agree, however, every system loks alike as they all have envoved into each other at some time or the other. But the japanese use longer stances and extented thier arms more than most.

[ShorinRyuRonin]

@robertvoice, It is Chinese mixed with Okinawan styles, not fully Chinese. If you look at any Chinese forms they are five times longer than Karate, & this is the longest Kata Shorin Ryu has. It is not fully Chinese, it is modified.

[robertvoice]

@ShorinRyuRonin

Hey, Cool. I like what I see in this video more than all others, This is the best style of Karate I've seen. Really Complete, not like the others.

[joeykarateka]

In over 30 years as a Shorin Ryu black belt I have never seen a traditional Shorin Ryu practitioner with black stripes on the gi pants, nor have I ever seen this version of Kusanku. I wonder what this black belt's lineage is?

[Specter1957]

@joeykarateka His lineage is via Kuda sensei who trained with Soken Sensei(and also Nakamura of Okinwawan Kempo)many times people say this is not Matsumura Karate, how ever you have to remember that many established sensei petitioned soken to teach them, and he taught each one according to their strong points, that why this Kata looks a little different compared to say Kise Senseis Kata...both had trained under Soken

[joeykarateka]

@Specter1957 thank you. I am aware of Soken's lineage but I would have never made the connection as per the black stripes and very linear/robotic movements which are both so unlike the mainstream okinawan karate I have been exposed to. At first i thought maybe it was a Yamashita student. Thank you for taking the time to respond however. Do you know this practitioner personally?

[Specter1957]

@joeykarateka as for the black stripes on Gi,,,,,the so called tae kwon do trim uniforms originated on Okinawa, there is a photo of Kyan Chotoku wearing one circa 1939.

[joeykarateka]

@Specter1957 interesting, that must be a rare photo. there are so many versions of kusanku, and they can all legitimately claim to be from the same lineage. However, would you agree that this particular version has added movements that none of the others have? In other words, this version is most unlike the others and therefore perhaps farther removed from the Chatan Yara Kusanku that most mainstream okinawan styles perform? Putting it in a positive tone, it's very unique,

[Specter1957]

@joeykarateka you also have to remember that John"Tosh" was living in southern california....and had also evolved his kata more for tournaments.

I had returned from Okinawa in 1990, John had expressed a desire to come under Kise at this point.

For a period of time I was trying to get his dojo in line with Okinawa, Tosh has since stopped teaching , and his former students are now with Kenshinkan Shorin Ryu of Kise Fusei

[joeykarateka]

@Specter1957 all this is very interesting but I was simply referring to the manner in which this kata was performed. I don't care about the politics. I don't know which John you are referring to but if he felt like changing/adding moves for tournaments then so be it. not trying to degrade the performance (I actually thinks he looks good), but it is useful to point out to viewers when they are seeing a heavily "doctored" version of one of the most pivotal katas in okinawa te history. Peace.

[Specter1957]

@joeykarateka the person performing the kata is John "Tosh" Gillespie

Joe Jennings had Tosh perform the Shorin Ryu Kata for the Panther Video series.

Yes Tosh did a great job on this video, and it did reflect the Matsumura style well

[joeykarateka]

@Specter1957 Tosh looked good performing this kata. Once again, this is not a criticism but an observation from someone who's very first black belt in 1985 was in Matsumura Seito.  Like several observers have pointed out, not just me, this version maintains the same general pattern of Kusanku, but there are several major changes and additions and is not typical of matsumura seito. I gues we have to respectfully agree to disagree, but the majority of the observers have said the same thing.

[Specter1957]

@joeykarateka with whom did you train?

I've been a direct student under Kise since 1982, but had my start in Martial Arts in 1965

[joeykarateka]

@Specter1957 will get back to you privately

[OkinawaShorinryu]

@joeykarateka Jose I agree with you. One can search here: Matsumura Kusanku and see Kise doing Kusanku as Soken did it (Soken was at this demo also) and search here to see another student of GM Soken: nishime kusanku,doing a great performance. ( It says Nishime, but this is not correct to my knowledge) I'm a traditionalist and yes, folks change the kata and the ones they teach could change it also till a point one would not recognize the kata only the name.

[nicky666]

Henshinnnnnnnn

[whitrbit]

I would rather Kanku Dai, Shotokan style.

[kempoxyz]

This was definitely different than Shotokan which is related to Shorin Ryu...

[joeykarateka]

The Shotokan katas were created much later than the Shorin Ryu katas; Funakoshi learned okinawan karate and then altered the okinawan katas to create his own style. But this version of kusanku is also very different than the more traditional one's. This versions doesn't even look okinawan, it's too linear, too stiff, and it has many added or changed movements.

[kempoxyz]

Yes I do know the history what shocks me is how this Sensei is performing the Kata. It is very esoteric to say the least. I agree it does not look like anything I have seen.

I have dan rank(s) in Shotokan, Kenpo Karate, and a black sash in Praying Mantis. MA is my sole physical outlet. Thanks for the Info. This kata is different...

[wael77]

That was beautiful to watch. The focus and form were impressive.

[Assassin824]

is this a taikei??

[karateki]

Just one question...who was your instructor?

[shorinryukaratedo123]

im still learning this kata. and correct if im wrong but does kusanku mean like the sky or something

[LoveForPhysics]

I do shotokan, and we call this kata "konku dai" which means 'gazing at the sky'

[whitrbit]

Isn't it Kanku Dai? With an A?

[49sGirl]

i need to learn this kata so my sensei and I can alter it for tournoment. Thanks for the help!

[Specter1957]

question, why would you alter it?

[49sGirl]

Im not, altering was used for lack of better words. My sensei wasnts me to learn this one, so that I can teach it to him. He used to perform a kata simliar to this one called Kobanu Kusanku. He no longer remembers it and there s no clear recording of that kata. So he has asked me to learn this one and reteach it to him in hopes of jogging his memory of Kobanu Kusanku.

This is a beautiful kata and is performed excelently in this video and Iby no means would I recomend any altrations.

[Specter1957]

interesting, two months ago you said you were going to alter it for tournament, now your saying your sensei knew this kata but not anymore, and that he wants you to learn it and teach it to him.....very interesting logic

[49sGirl]

you are not impressing me by arguing the matter, I mearly meant that he knew the kata, forgot it over the years, and has asked me to learn it off this video so that I can reteach it to him. This is not the kata he knew but the closest recorded version. He hopes that by learning this one, it will jog his memory of the kata he wants me to perform.

I did not share all that information in my first post simply because I didn't think anyone would care enough to argue the point.,

[Specter1957]

sorry if you feel that i am arguing the point, just making an observation.....good luck in learning the kata from a video, you may want to tallk your sensei into trying to follow along, he would have a better chance of remembering his kata then

[joeykarateka]

@49sGirl you need to find a different Sensei!!!!

[ryukuykenpo74]

May i ask is this matusmura seito shorin ryu it looks like it to me but i'm only 80 % sure.great post thanks

[JimmyTheKirkie]

I'm shodan in Shorin Ryu. Did it for 25 years. I now do Kenpo. I remember practicing this kata over and over....and over..........................­...From "Panther Productions" to youtube.........

Kampai!

[ccthedragon]

hello, liked yr tech & style in this classical kata. very strong handtechnique. thnx.