A few years before the albanians didnt even want to hear of the word Epirus and now they ve started calling themselves Epirots!!!You cant become epirots cause you ve never been.
poli oreo video.. antrixiazo, thimame otan zousa ximarra boriou hpeirou.....i hope Ill be there soon..... kai oso gia ton albanian2be...agnoisteton....plisi eggefalou exei opos oi perisoteroi alvanoi....akomi mialo den vazoune.....
you are the muslim converts, you were the hired mercenaries of the ottoman empire, you were the and are still the only muslim people inside the balkans, what does this tell you?
Vocalist has great resonant voice for panaegric, well supported by klarina. This is the soul of Epirus. I think you can agree with this, whether you are Berati or from Ioannina.
Voreia eiperus,,akoma prepi na apeleftherothi! ellinika meri,,elliniko aima,,afou i pappoudes mas pigan eki na polemisoun me pious? alvanous? OXI me ellines sympatriotes..ksypniste reeee koita ti lene i alvanoi gia tin eipiro mas!
what about the creation of the albanian state by the world powers in world war 1? now what? so what, greeks are supposed to leave the lands their fathers and grandfathers fought for because an albanian said its a "false" state? stop taking drugs albanians enough is enough it has ruined your brains!
STOP! trying to transfer your political opinions! music is international...just enjoy!
i am from himare and my first language is greek...but i am really tired all of you greeks...albanians....ipirots...turks and whatever you' ve been brainwashed about... peace out!
illyria would make much more sense if more modernly translated to ylleria, as was used much in old times for it cosmic significance. As the rulers yllus, bardhyllus. The great character achylles. the work ylliad. basil, vasil, vasillis should be pasyll or mbasyll which would be behind the star (eclipse, a celestial alignment), another significant cosmic symbol of old. you guys are wasting your time debating this stuff as never the concrete will be discovered. the song is incredible, by the way.
Of all the region through which the pure. STRYMON flows, on the side toward the setting sun,I am the lord. There lies within the limits of my rule the land of the PERRHEABI, the parts beyond Pindus CLOSE to the Paeonians, and the mountain ridge of DODONA;the edge of the watery sea borders my kingdom. I rule up to these boundaries.
All I have posted are accurate ancient texts on the origins of the Epirotes. The overwhelming character of the ancient Epirotes was Greek, and in fact the homeland of the proto-Greeks before 2000bc. Even the word Epiros translates to "mainland" in Greek. Illyrians pushed into the Balkans around 1100 bc, and yes, they did intermingle with some Epirote tribes. The Albanians represent a mixture of other ancient Balkan people north of the Greeks, predominantly the Illyrians and Thracians
Balkancoolhead, You mentioned that Pelasgian may be a distant ancestor of Albanian. Can you provide a shred of evidence for that comment?
Can you please provide even one ancient text that places the Pelasgians in the area of where Albanians live such as Kosovo, Tetovo, and Albaina proper?
ALL THE ANCIENT TESTIMONY place the Pelasgians in Greece and only as far north as Epirus and Macedonia, NEVER IN ILLYRIA.
All I have posted are accurate ancient texts on the origins of the Epirotes. The overwhelming character of the ancient Epirotes was Greek, and in fact the homeland of the proto-Greeks before 2000bc. Even the word Epiros translates to "mainland" in Greek. Illyrians pushed into the Balkans around 1100 bc, and yes, they did intermingle with some Epirote tribes. The Albanians represent a mixture of other ancient Balkan people north of the Greeks, predominantly the Illyrians and Thracians
that's also where the most unique aspects of the language persist, leading to a more than reasonable hypothesis that albanian is closest to illyrian. the changes and transformations over time from what may be a distant pelasgian ancestor are more difficult to trace at present, but i am convinced modern science will provide more clarity in the not so distant future.
in the meantime, i am still waiting for a sincere effort on your part to address the issue of Albanian Christians or Arvanites.
well, you've come a long way here and i hope that your fellow patrioti will have a chance to peruse the thread to come to the conclusions that for the most part we share, about the albanians in the balkans.
i am not against the idea notion of illyrian/thracian/dacian blood connection to modern albanians. this would seem most logical after all of this time, though the northern mountains in albania may very well have protected a purer concentration of illyrian that persists today to some degree.
For among the Bruttii are the Epizephyrian Locrians and the inhabitants of Croton and Thurii. But north of the gulf the first inhabitants are GREEKS, called EPIROTES, as far as the city of Epidamnus, which is situated on the sea. [83] And to the north of them live the ALBANOI in an exceedingly good land called Langovilla, and beyond these are the nations subject to the Franks...."
"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes."
The continuity issue is that Albanian is a Satem tongue while Illyrian a Centum tongue. My theory is that modern day Albanians are a mixture of Illyrians and Paeonians/Thracians or Dardanians so there has been major changes in the Albanian language.
chicagogeorge, although i dont agree with you on alot of things youve said, i atleast want to say thanks for having the balls to atleast admitt albanians have been there since god knows when, as apposed to slavic teachings of albanians not being there at all, also if i could say that pan -slavism, most notably servia pushes for misinformation on the vardarski issues...
meanwhile, there are some problems with albanian/illyrian continuity between 8th century and 11th century when there is a major news blackout without references, but it was also the dark ages in europe, so periods of extreme poverty, reversals in cultural development, barbarism or just time itself passing without notable events in some regions is completely normal during this period, especially in very remote areas.
About Kastrioti, I am not an expert on, but I DID provide you several sources that claim that he was Greek origin. I really do not know.
I do consider myself well versed in ANCIENT Epirus, which I have PROVEN to you that 100% of scholars consider it to be a Hellenic land. You NEVER replied in any logical way about the abundant evidence I present on the ancient Hellenes. You automaticall jumped 3000 years to Ottoman times when Epirus was a mixed Greek and Albanian region.
Then onward he rode and afar, With scarce three hundred men, Through river and forest and fen, O'er the mountains of Argentar; And his heart was merry within, When he crossed the river Drin, And saw in the gleam of the morn The White Castle Ak-Hissar, The city Croia called, The city moated and walled, The city where he was born,-- And above it the morning star.
Then his trumpeters in the van On their silver bugles blew, And in crowds about him ran Albanian and Turkoman, That the sound together drew. And he feasted with his friends, And when they were warm with wine, He said: "O friends of mine, Behold what fortune sends, And what the fates design! King Amurath commands That my father's wide domain, This city and all its lands, Shall be given to me again."
Then to the Castle White He rode in regal state, And entered in at the gate In all his arms bedight, And gave to the Pasha Who ruled in Croia The writing of the King, Sealed with his signet ring. And the Pasha bowed his head, And after a silence said: "Allah is just and great! I yield to the will divine, The city and lands are thine; Who shall contend with fate?"
Anon from the castle walls The crescent banner falls, And the crowd beholds instead, Like a portent in the sky, Iskander's banner fly, The Black Eagle with double head; And a shout ascends on high, For men's souls are tired of the Turks, And their wicked ways and works, That have made of Ak-Hissar A city of the plague; And the loud, exultant cry That echoes wide and far Is: "Long live Scanderbeg!"
the confusion from a limited number of sources about a "greek" origin for skanderbeg is based on a combination of limited familiarity with the region as well as a bias at the time associating greece generally with christianity in the East.
thus a military leader from epirus that fought to preserve christianity was simply labeled greek as opposed to ottoman, since arnaot/arvanita/arberesh/albanian was less well known as an ethnic group.
"The object they have in view is the hellenization of Albania. The whole of the southern portion carries its commerce through Janina, and the inhabitants regard this town as their capital. They fraternize easily with the Greeks.. As yet, their aspirations to form a distinct nationality are thought to be weak and ill-defined,
so that the Greeks hope with the possession of Janina to amalgamate the two races and gain over to the cause of hellenism the finest and most warlike race in South-Eastern Europe."
Encyclopedia of Islam 1913-1936 E.J Brill's First Edition edited by M Th Houtsma, R Hartmann, T W Arnold, R Basset, H A R Gibb, W Heffening, E Livi-Provengal, A J Wensinck 1993
pg 466
His name was George Kastriota, of the family of Kastriotes of Serbian origin, that had once ruled Epirus and Southern Albania
Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time
by Franz Babinger, William C. Hickmann 1992
page 358
Iskender Bey's father was an Italian from Genoa, his mother a Greek woman from Trabzon
2.4 His Turkish education could never eradicate from his memory the consciousness that he was a Greek
3.12 A guard of honour, by the orders of Karam Bey, advanced to conduct Iskander to his presence; and soon, entering the pavilion, the Grecian prince exchanged courtesies with the Turkish general.
4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.
The Question of Northern Epirus at the Peace Conference - Page 73
by Nicholas J. Cassavetes - Eastern question (Balkan) - 1919
Chapter VII
"The Greek-speaking population is greater than the total Mussulman population, or 198,925 and 116,815, respectively........."
" the Greek speaking population of Epirus alone is in the majority over any one element and by far more numerous than the Moslem Albanians or 193,925 Greeks against 116,815.:
"Here, secluded from the rest of the world, and before the Ottoman arms or the plundering Albanians invaded their peace, the family of the Botsari ruled supreme, and Marco, tending his father's flocks, conceived those ideas of military glory which were afterwards developed in combating for the liberties of Greece.""
SOURCE:
Greece and the Levant; or, Diary of a summer's excursion in 1834: with epistolary supplements. By the Rev. Richard Burgess., Burgess, Richard, 1796-1881.
Of course you must by pass ALL the evidence that I presented about the Hellenic identity of Epirotes and jump into Ottoman times where migratory Albanians moved south into Albania. Nobody denies that Epirus was a mix of Greek and Albanian during Ottoman times. Chams were found in Greek Epirus, until they decided to side with the Axis Powers, and Greeks are STILL found in Albanian Epirus. In fact I teach three students in Chicago who have parents form Northern Epirus....
"The object they [[the Greeks]] have in view is the hellenization of Albania. The whole of the southern portion carries its commerce through Janina, and the inhabitants regard this town as their capital. They fraternize easily with the Greeks...
As yet, their aspirations to form a distinct nationality are thought to be weak and ill-defined, so that the Greeks hope with the possession of Janina to amalgamate the two races and gain over to the cause of hellenism the finest and most warlike race in South-Eastern Europe."
* Hipothoos led the tribes of spear-fighting Pelasgians, * they who dwelt in LARISA with its rich soil; * their leaders were Hippothoos and Pylaios, scion of Ares, * the two sons of Pelasgian Lethoos, son of Teumanos.
58. The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body....
Herodotus, The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, tr., vol. 1 (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885), Book 1; and vol. 2 , book 3].
I will wait for a LONG time for anyone to place the Pelasgians in Illyria or modern Albania. Every single ancient evidence has them in Epirus, Thessaly, Athens, Peloponesos, Crete and Macedonia, BUT NEVER IN ILLYRIA!
meanwhile, your unscholarly accounts of history continue to be shameless...
Herodotus, The Histories:
"These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen;
driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans [Phoenicians], it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian."
fuk you condescending kathekis. your shit stinks at least as bad and you benefitted from massive subsidies from the u.s., NATO and now the EU (you even cooked the books on your application to get in), and you are still the poorest nation of the original EU members.
after WWII, you were as poor as Albania and required new cows from America in order to survive.
don't worry, we are recovering quickly now from our dark period under communism. keep up the bad karma, malakas.
The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes.
Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope.
its difficult to put boarders to a place where llyrians ,molossians chaonians and thesprotians lived together and changed national identities over the year.
Politsani51, just for the record ,it was WWII not WWI.Never the less this is great music and music has no borders.I used to dance to this music during the festival time back in Greece and I love the Klarino sound.Most of Epirus is indeed part of Greece.For the Nothern part there is nothing one can do. Civilized thing that is.... Enjoy the music..Life is too short...
Thank you for posting this wonderful video. I was born with, lived with, raised with and aged my 48 years with the moving sound of the CLARINO. I feel blessed to be emotionally moved by the pure, tradional, original sound of GREECE!! Yes we are GREEK not albanian and proud of it! How do you know there are no American-Epirotis in the audience? Because we would be dancing! LETS KEEP IT ALIVE!
After WWI, at the Yalta Conference, Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill divided Europe up to contain the Germans. They gave Northern Epirus to Albania which accounts for all the Greeks in Albania. For most of that time, they were not allowed to speak Greek or attend church. But, Hoxha ruled with a heavy and restrictive hand. The Greeks were considered less than second class citizens and were not allowed to leave the country. In any event, we were and still are Greeks living in Albania
Trikala, Thessalia is the centre of the universe, and Panagiotis Sosimas' hometown. Panigiri summer 2008 in Psiloma and Kerasoula (better known as "ta hassia"). See Sosimas live...stay tuned for details...
this massacre? its because when the facists came you openly allowed them to albania and joined them to invade greece, what were greeks supposed to do? think that if we do this, some ignorant fool 60 years later might post something on the internet. so lets not? of course massacres happend, why do you forget about arvanites who were hired and enslaved mercenaries for your muslim overlords?
1940 - 1945 ? it developed then? you should stop taking expired drugs. and when you say your language, were greeks aloud and are they allowed to speak their language in "albania" albania is an ottoman entity, a millet you idiot.
Tsamiko originated in Çamëria (Tsamouria) which is Southern Epirus. 1940 - 1945 the Muslim Çams were massacred and expelled from their homes by Zervas. They now reside in Albania. The rest of the Orthodox Çams live in Çamëria (Greek Epirus) and they have not been permitted to speak their own language for over 60 years now. The older people still know it, the kids are just confused to what they are.
Thanks for your reply. As a Greek person living away from Greece all my life , feel very angry that ethnic minorities within Greece have been treated badly . This is wrong and should not happen . Only now in richer countries like were I live, Britain , there are laws respecting all rights of minorities .I wish good luck to my Cam brothers and love the music !
Thanks for the good words and understanding. If you need more info on Epirote music, let me know. You can also browse through my music videos to get a general idea of how diverse it is. The Greek Epirote has only one character and is not polyphonic. Only late attempts of Chalkias and a couple of others have tried to make it polyphonic.
this singer is my friend...i know him very well....this song is traditional greek...fuck you bastard albanians...you copy everything from greece. geia sou re patrida thessalia....opa...na zisei i ellada.
I have a feeling like a lot of them may be Vlahs. There is this thing in the Balkans....where minorities....like to identify with their neighbours...eg. Pomaks often claim to be Turks, Vlachs from Albania.... often claim to be Greeks, Moslems from Serbia and Montenegro...claim to be Bosnian.....and so on....and so on. This music sounds pretty Vlach to me....whatever language you sing it in...I hear Vlachs!
Sadie--My family is Vlakh form Ioannina. This is definitely NOT Vlakh music. If you want to hear some of our music check out Gramustea video. Dear Came Xhavella- do you want to know the ancestor of Klarina? Check out double flutes on ancient GREEK pottery vases.Get that? I said GREEK! Origin of Tsamiko, that's another matter.
Oh, my God..Why dont u try to call those people who are singing albanians and then watch their reactions.Its really very annoying that albanians (a 50 years old nation) are claiming everything that is greek as theirs.They are nothing more than wannabe greeks.
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Όλη η Ξάνθη ακούει Παναγιώτη Ζωσιμά...!!!
Stabo91 10 months ago
αυτος τραγουδησε στο γαμο μου ο Ζωσιμας
hujeta1 10 months ago
Such a small country, yet so diverse. Amazing.
I am from Tripoli.....
blacksheep290 11 months ago
einai o zosi!!!!
th0m4sss9 1 year ago
A few years before the albanians didnt even want to hear of the word Epirus and now they ve started calling themselves Epirots!!!You cant become epirots cause you ve never been.
gkioniskk 2 years ago
this is vlachika he is a vlach singer amazing monster voice!!!!
Skabanis 2 years ago
@Skabanis He is resonating form his lungs and not the throat-- a rare gift.
IanHunedoara8 1 year ago
gia sou re arxonta zosima....!!
remlgr 2 years ago
Γεια σου ρε Πάνο Ζωσιμά με τα τραγούδια σου !!!
jimcrush 2 years ago
poli oreo video.. antrixiazo, thimame otan zousa ximarra boriou hpeirou.....i hope Ill be there soon..... kai oso gia ton albanian2be...agnoisteton....plisi eggefalou exei opos oi perisoteroi alvanoi....akomi mialo den vazoune.....
REtiPATHAME 2 years ago 4
5***** love for hometown Ioannina and all Epirus on Eleftheria day 3/25. Remember Heroic Botsares and Kolkotronis. Never forget the Souli.
IanHunedoara8 2 years ago 3
ELLADA GIA PADA! Etsi tragoudame sta Ipirotika vouna!
marbiourd 2 years ago 7
Geia sou re patrida!!!!!!!!
nzorbas1982 3 years ago 3
gia sou vre Zosima asteri tis thessalias
zeta4711 3 years ago
Ποιος είναι ο Τραγουδιστης?
yiannisbaris 3 years ago
stupit?
you are the muslim converts, you were the hired mercenaries of the ottoman empire, you were the and are still the only muslim people inside the balkans, what does this tell you?
YOU are the real turks in the area, nobody else.
wtfhellas 3 years ago
aide ore ..sakoulemena
saltadoros08 3 years ago
Everyone stop... or else im taking down the video.
klefti 3 years ago
who is the singer and the clarinet player in the video ??? Amazing Klarino :) YIA
kmferranti 1 year ago
ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΠΑΛΙΟΜΑΛΑΚΕΣ ΑΥΤΟ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΟΧΙ ΑΛΒΑΝΙΑ
xrisaaaa 3 years ago
Vocalist has great resonant voice for panaegric, well supported by klarina. This is the soul of Epirus. I think you can agree with this, whether you are Berati or from Ioannina.
IanHunedoara8 3 years ago
the only fake state is albania
wtfhellas 3 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
-.- wtf why you saying that lol ps greek blood dusnt exist nerd!
Albanian2Be 3 years ago
and albanian does? again you think you are illyrian. stop stealing history, its not like stealing a chicken or shoes in greece.
wtfhellas 3 years ago
Όσο για σένα mishmesy , agree ξε-agree , απόλαυσε ΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΠΑΡΑΔΟΣΙΑΚΗ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ και μην παριστάνεις το κερασάκι στην τούρτα..
Άι σιχτίρ με τους "καλοθελητάδες τους εξαποδώ"
GogaMishiu 3 years ago 2
Τι λές ωρέ REtiPATHAME !!!!!
Η μητρική σου γλώσσα είναι τα Ελληνικά, αλλά έχεις .."κουραστεί από τους Έλληνες"????
Σε έχει κουράσει η Ελλάδα και ο Ελληνισμός??
Έχει πλάκα ρε ΑΛΒΑΝΕ ΠΡΟΒΟΚΑΤΟΡΑ , να μας πεις ότι είσαι και ΕΛΛΗΝΑΣ ΣΤΗΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΩΓΗ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GogaMishiu 3 years ago 3
Voreia eiperus,,akoma prepi na apeleftherothi! ellinika meri,,elliniko aima,,afou i pappoudes mas pigan eki na polemisoun me pious? alvanous? OXI me ellines sympatriotes..ksypniste reeee koita ti lene i alvanoi gia tin eipiro mas!
mitsosfantasia 3 years ago
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Greece dont exist.That pseudo state or also called "British creation " is based on albanian lands and albanian culture.
P4RR3LL 3 years ago
what about the creation of the albanian state by the world powers in world war 1? now what? so what, greeks are supposed to leave the lands their fathers and grandfathers fought for because an albanian said its a "false" state? stop taking drugs albanians enough is enough it has ruined your brains!
mitsosfantasia 3 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
ku di ti biesh klarinetes ti kokloqe pederast nga athina.... biere njehere ketej klarinetes nga muzeqeja ta tregojne ata si i biet....
Epiri-Toskeria pergjithmone!!!
visibuzi 3 years ago
STOP! trying to transfer your political opinions! music is international...just enjoy!
i am from himare and my first language is greek...but i am really tired all of you greeks...albanians....ipirots...turks and whatever you' ve been brainwashed about... peace out!
REtiPATHAME 3 years ago
i agree. i also think klefti should upload some more from this performance.
mishmesy 3 years ago 4
did you just have a revelation that you are an albanian?
newsflash: people in EPIRUS ARE MAJORITY GREEK BLOOD and were talking about the NATIVES not the ones who were brought in from asia minor and pontus.
wtfhellas 3 years ago
illyria would make much more sense if more modernly translated to ylleria, as was used much in old times for it cosmic significance. As the rulers yllus, bardhyllus. The great character achylles. the work ylliad. basil, vasil, vasillis should be pasyll or mbasyll which would be behind the star (eclipse, a celestial alignment), another significant cosmic symbol of old. you guys are wasting your time debating this stuff as never the concrete will be discovered. the song is incredible, by the way.
perhapsirony 3 years ago
continued.... Aeschylus Suppliants 258
For I am Pelasgus, offspring of Palaechthon,
whom the earth brought forth, and lord of this land;and after me, their king, is rightly named the race of the Pelasgi,who harvest the land.
chicagogeorge 3 years ago 3
Of all the region through which the pure. STRYMON flows, on the side toward the setting sun,I am the lord. There lies within the limits of my rule the land of the PERRHEABI, the parts beyond Pindus CLOSE to the Paeonians, and the mountain ridge of DODONA;the edge of the watery sea borders my kingdom. I rule up to these boundaries.
chicagogeorge 3 years ago 3
Dionysus of Halikarnassos "Roman Antiquities" 1.17.2.1
for the Pelasgians too, were a Hellenic race originally from the Peloponnesus
chicagogeorge 3 years ago 3
usamykfor,
All I have posted are accurate ancient texts on the origins of the Epirotes. The overwhelming character of the ancient Epirotes was Greek, and in fact the homeland of the proto-Greeks before 2000bc. Even the word Epiros translates to "mainland" in Greek. Illyrians pushed into the Balkans around 1100 bc, and yes, they did intermingle with some Epirote tribes. The Albanians represent a mixture of other ancient Balkan people north of the Greeks, predominantly the Illyrians and Thracians
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
Sorry for the double post.
Balkancoolhead, You mentioned that Pelasgian may be a distant ancestor of Albanian. Can you provide a shred of evidence for that comment?
Can you please provide even one ancient text that places the Pelasgians in the area of where Albanians live such as Kosovo, Tetovo, and Albaina proper?
ALL THE ANCIENT TESTIMONY place the Pelasgians in Greece and only as far north as Epirus and Macedonia, NEVER IN ILLYRIA.
Here are some ancient quotes on the Pelasgians...
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
usamykfor,
All I have posted are accurate ancient texts on the origins of the Epirotes. The overwhelming character of the ancient Epirotes was Greek, and in fact the homeland of the proto-Greeks before 2000bc. Even the word Epiros translates to "mainland" in Greek. Illyrians pushed into the Balkans around 1100 bc, and yes, they did intermingle with some Epirote tribes. The Albanians represent a mixture of other ancient Balkan people north of the Greeks, predominantly the Illyrians and Thracians
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
we'll return to epirus at a later time.
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
that's also where the most unique aspects of the language persist, leading to a more than reasonable hypothesis that albanian is closest to illyrian. the changes and transformations over time from what may be a distant pelasgian ancestor are more difficult to trace at present, but i am convinced modern science will provide more clarity in the not so distant future.
in the meantime, i am still waiting for a sincere effort on your part to address the issue of Albanian Christians or Arvanites.
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
well, you've come a long way here and i hope that your fellow patrioti will have a chance to peruse the thread to come to the conclusions that for the most part we share, about the albanians in the balkans.
i am not against the idea notion of illyrian/thracian/dacian blood connection to modern albanians. this would seem most logical after all of this time, though the northern mountains in albania may very well have protected a purer concentration of illyrian that persists today to some degree.
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
No matter how hard you try to pretend that Greeks were not the first and last to be called Epirotes, history will always vindicate my friend......
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
For among the Bruttii are the Epizephyrian Locrians and the inhabitants of Croton and Thurii. But north of the gulf the first inhabitants are GREEKS, called EPIROTES, as far as the city of Epidamnus, which is situated on the sea. [83] And to the north of them live the ALBANOI in an exceedingly good land called Langovilla, and beyond these are the nations subject to the Franks...."
Procopius-The Gothic War, Book V, 80
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
Aristotle wrote in his work Meteorologica:
"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes."
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
I never denied the that Albanians have had a presence in Epirus but the fact remains, that the Greeks have ALWAYS BEEN IN EPIRUS......
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
The continuity issue is that Albanian is a Satem tongue while Illyrian a Centum tongue. My theory is that modern day Albanians are a mixture of Illyrians and Paeonians/Thracians or Dardanians so there has been major changes in the Albanian language.
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
chicagogeorge, although i dont agree with you on alot of things youve said, i atleast want to say thanks for having the balls to atleast admitt albanians have been there since god knows when, as apposed to slavic teachings of albanians not being there at all, also if i could say that pan -slavism, most notably servia pushes for misinformation on the vardarski issues...
usarmykfor 3 years ago
fair enough, i will reply in more detail soon.
meanwhile, there are some problems with albanian/illyrian continuity between 8th century and 11th century when there is a major news blackout without references, but it was also the dark ages in europe, so periods of extreme poverty, reversals in cultural development, barbarism or just time itself passing without notable events in some regions is completely normal during this period, especially in very remote areas.
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
About Kastrioti, I am not an expert on, but I DID provide you several sources that claim that he was Greek origin. I really do not know.
I do consider myself well versed in ANCIENT Epirus, which I have PROVEN to you that 100% of scholars consider it to be a Hellenic land. You NEVER replied in any logical way about the abundant evidence I present on the ancient Hellenes. You automaticall jumped 3000 years to Ottoman times when Epirus was a mixed Greek and Albanian region.
I am still waiting.
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
excerpts from:
"Tales of a Wayside Inn"
by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
of course, in serious scholarly circles, there is no real question of skanderbeg's albanian origin.
to suggest otherwise is to reveal your own bias or tendency towards mischief. maskara greek. ;-)
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
the confusion from a limited number of sources about a "greek" origin for skanderbeg is based on a combination of limited familiarity with the region as well as a bias at the time associating greece generally with christianity in the East.
thus a military leader from epirus that fought to preserve christianity was simply labeled greek as opposed to ottoman, since arnaot/arvanita/arberesh/albanian was less well known as an ethnic group.
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
"The object they have in view is the hellenization of Albania. The whole of the southern portion carries its commerce through Janina, and the inhabitants regard this town as their capital. They fraternize easily with the Greeks.. As yet, their aspirations to form a distinct nationality are thought to be weak and ill-defined,
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
so that the Greeks hope with the possession of Janina to amalgamate the two races and gain over to the cause of hellenism the finest and most warlike race in South-Eastern Europe."
The Times (London), January 31, 1879
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
it seems to me, you are a victim yourself of hellenization chicago. i wonder if you are not an obedient arvanite.
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
Encyclopedia of Islam 1913-1936 E.J Brill's First Edition edited by M Th Houtsma, R Hartmann, T W Arnold, R Basset, H A R Gibb, W Heffening, E Livi-Provengal, A J Wensinck 1993
pg 466
His name was George Kastriota, of the family of Kastriotes of Serbian origin, that had once ruled Epirus and Southern Albania
Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time
by Franz Babinger, William C. Hickmann 1992
page 358
Iskender Bey's father was an Italian from Genoa, his mother a Greek woman from Trabzon
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
-Italin A. Salvi, 1718
-British C. Randall,1810
-French Paganel (Histoire de Scanderbey), 1855
Called Skanderbeg a Greek.
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
George Kastrioti
2.4 His Turkish education could never eradicate from his memory the consciousness that he was a Greek
3.12 A guard of honour, by the orders of Karam Bey, advanced to conduct Iskander to his presence; and soon, entering the pavilion, the Grecian prince exchanged courtesies with the Turkish general.
4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.
.ibiblio.org/disraeli/iskander.pdf
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
Ottoman census 1911
311,000 Geeks in Vilayet in Janina (Ioannina)
img443.imageshack.us/img443/5137/popolazottomana19112zb2.jpg
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
The Question of Northern Epirus at the Peace Conference - Page 73
by Nicholas J. Cassavetes - Eastern question (Balkan) - 1919
Chapter VII
"The Greek-speaking population is greater than the total Mussulman population, or 198,925 and 116,815, respectively........."
" the Greek speaking population of Epirus alone is in the majority over any one element and by far more numerous than the Moslem Albanians or 193,925 Greeks against 116,815.:
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
"Here, secluded from the rest of the world, and before the Ottoman arms or the plundering Albanians invaded their peace, the family of the Botsari ruled supreme, and Marco, tending his father's flocks, conceived those ideas of military glory which were afterwards developed in combating for the liberties of Greece.""
SOURCE:
Greece and the Levant; or, Diary of a summer's excursion in 1834: with epistolary supplements. By the Rev. Richard Burgess., Burgess, Richard, 1796-1881.
P.78
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
Of course you must by pass ALL the evidence that I presented about the Hellenic identity of Epirotes and jump into Ottoman times where migratory Albanians moved south into Albania. Nobody denies that Epirus was a mix of Greek and Albanian during Ottoman times. Chams were found in Greek Epirus, until they decided to side with the Axis Powers, and Greeks are STILL found in Albanian Epirus. In fact I teach three students in Chicago who have parents form Northern Epirus....
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
[...] Et Scanderbeg, haineux du peuple Scythien
Qui de toute l'Asie a chassé l'Evangile.
O très-grand Epirote ! Ô vaillant Albanois !
Dont la main a défait les Turcs vingt et deux fois [...]"
"[...] And Scanderbeg, hating the Scythian people
Which from all Asia has expelled the Gospel.
O! Mighty Epirote! O! valiant Albanian!
Whose hand defeated the Turks twenty-two times[...]"
-Pierre de Ronsard (1524-1585)
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
"The object they [[the Greeks]] have in view is the hellenization of Albania. The whole of the southern portion carries its commerce through Janina, and the inhabitants regard this town as their capital. They fraternize easily with the Greeks...
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
As yet, their aspirations to form a distinct nationality are thought to be weak and ill-defined, so that the Greeks hope with the possession of Janina to amalgamate the two races and gain over to the cause of hellenism the finest and most warlike race in South-Eastern Europe."
The Times (London), January 31, 1879
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
* Hipothoos led the tribes of spear-fighting Pelasgians, * they who dwelt in LARISA with its rich soil; * their leaders were Hippothoos and Pylaios, scion of Ares, * the two sons of Pelasgian Lethoos, son of Teumanos.
[Homer, Iliad 2, lines 840 - 843]
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
58. The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body....
Herodotus, The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, tr., vol. 1 (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885), Book 1; and vol. 2 , book 3].
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
I will wait for a LONG time for anyone to place the Pelasgians in Illyria or modern Albania. Every single ancient evidence has them in Epirus, Thessaly, Athens, Peloponesos, Crete and Macedonia, BUT NEVER IN ILLYRIA!
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
Quote:
Herodotus 1.58
Τὸ δὲ Ἑλληνικὸν γλώσσῃ μέν, ἐπείτε ἐγένετο, αἰεί κοτε τῇ
αὐτῇ διαχρᾶται, ὡς ἐμοὶ καταφαίνεται εἶναι. Ἀποσχισθὲν
μέντοι ἀπὸ τοῦ Πελασγικοῦ
translation:
"But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always
had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when
separated from the Pelasgians"
Why speak of separation, if they were not part of the same people?
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
they were not the same people.the greeks came and assimilated most of southern pelasgs.
bylysi 3 years ago
and Pelasgian has NOTHING to do with Albanians.....
Find me one ancient source that places Pelasgians in Albania/Illyria! I will laugh hard at you!
Dionysus of Halikarnassos "Roman Antiquities" 1.17.2.1
καὶ τὸ τῶν Πελασγῶν γένος Ἑλληνικὸν ἐκ Πελοποννήσου
translation:
for the Pelasgians too, were a Hellenic race originally from the Peloponnesus
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
hahaha
the pelasgians are a greek race???
ahahahahahah
freking idiot.
bylysi 3 years ago
'O Lord Zeus, Dodonaean, Pelasgian.' - Homer
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
That was Achilles prayer by the way. Not Sali Berisha's
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
meanwhile, your unscholarly accounts of history continue to be shameless...
Herodotus, The Histories:
"These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen;
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans [Phoenicians], it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian."
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
So the Athenians and Ionians are Pelasgian....
WHat is your point. They have nothing to do with Albanians or Illyrians!
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
fuk you condescending kathekis. your shit stinks at least as bad and you benefitted from massive subsidies from the u.s., NATO and now the EU (you even cooked the books on your application to get in), and you are still the poorest nation of the original EU members.
after WWII, you were as poor as Albania and required new cows from America in order to survive.
don't worry, we are recovering quickly now from our dark period under communism. keep up the bad karma, malakas.
balkancoolhead 3 years ago
livendis
fadsas 3 years ago
The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes.
Meteorology
Aristotle
Translated by J. L. Stocks
Book I
350BC
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
Aristotle (Meteorologica, I.352a
Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope.
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
Yeah ok man..... You know what a Greek is...
chicagogeorge 3 years ago
Gia sou Epiros, gia sou Ellada!!!!!!
Ntarntana1 3 years ago 2
epiri is illyrian.you copied from us and call it "greece".a false dream
bylysi 3 years ago
albanians stop the dirty propapaganda
rebetika1922 3 years ago
hahah
we??? weee run propaganda????
hahahahahaha
bylysi 3 years ago
its difficult to put boarders to a place where llyrians ,molossians chaonians and thesprotians lived together and changed national identities over the year.
alexgramma4 3 years ago
national identitys is new it was more a people back then.but it is not that hard.
illyrians were a collective of tribes.
molosians chaonians thesprotians dalmatians arbanois taulantis dalmate...............
were illyrian
bylysi 3 years ago
they were not llyrians theys spoke doric greek gut they shared similarities with llyrians. not in terms of language but in terms of culture.
alexgramma4 3 years ago
i refer to molossians chaonians and thesprotians in specific.
alexgramma4 3 years ago
yeah because you want them to be greek.too bad is not gona happend.
bylysi 3 years ago
thats what history says. read books.
alexgramma4 3 years ago
actually is the other way around.
bylysi 3 years ago
Bravo re pedia. That's real Greek music. Keep it coming, please. Zhtw h Makedonia ke h Epiros.
macedonika 3 years ago 4
Politsani51, just for the record ,it was WWII not WWI.Never the less this is great music and music has no borders.I used to dance to this music during the festival time back in Greece and I love the Klarino sound.Most of Epirus is indeed part of Greece.For the Nothern part there is nothing one can do. Civilized thing that is.... Enjoy the music..Life is too short...
pantheon56 4 years ago
Thank you for posting this wonderful video. I was born with, lived with, raised with and aged my 48 years with the moving sound of the CLARINO. I feel blessed to be emotionally moved by the pure, tradional, original sound of GREECE!! Yes we are GREEK not albanian and proud of it! How do you know there are no American-Epirotis in the audience? Because we would be dancing! LETS KEEP IT ALIVE!
Jimmy
JKNJV 4 years ago 2
After WWI, at the Yalta Conference, Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill divided Europe up to contain the Germans. They gave Northern Epirus to Albania which accounts for all the Greeks in Albania. For most of that time, they were not allowed to speak Greek or attend church. But, Hoxha ruled with a heavy and restrictive hand. The Greeks were considered less than second class citizens and were not allowed to leave the country. In any event, we were and still are Greeks living in Albania
politsani51 4 years ago 3
Tell me how many Albanians are in Greece?
You only look in your Greek point of view.
Arvanites + Tsamis= half of Greece is Albanian.
And they are loosing their Albanian Language but Greeks in Albania they do still speak Greek & nobody stops them.
My Greek neighbors still speak greek.
But your Greek Church is worst than E. Hoxha.
pictura8 3 years ago
ye the whole world is albanian!
alexgramma4 3 years ago
sure damn is not greek.even greece is not greece
bylysi 3 years ago
do u just drink or smoke weed as well?
alexgramma4 3 years ago
did you??????????????
bylysi 3 years ago
never. but dont smoke albanian weed its got a lot of pesticides.
alexgramma4 3 years ago
dude you make no sense.
bylysi 3 years ago
neither do u.
alexgramma4 3 years ago
stop hitting the pipe fag
bylysi 3 years ago
ok man whatever u say.
alexgramma4 3 years ago
we greeks called you assholes barbarians.We were wrong.We should have called you bitches.Cause that's what you always were.
helen4life1985 3 years ago
Trikala, Thessalia is the centre of the universe, and Panagiotis Sosimas' hometown. Panigiri summer 2008 in Psiloma and Kerasoula (better known as "ta hassia"). See Sosimas live...stay tuned for details...
jimmythegrk 4 years ago
jess you are right, this is typical for thessalia!
I`m from trikala and they love this musik there
LexxrDerGrieche 4 years ago
aaaaxxx re patridamou pou eisai?
pou eisai gia na mporo na se glentiso.
opaaaa
mou leipis ellas gia panta
LexxrDerGrieche 4 years ago
popo girisma o pextis sti pikrodafnis foveros giasou thedorou megale
3kalinos 4 years ago
this massacre? its because when the facists came you openly allowed them to albania and joined them to invade greece, what were greeks supposed to do? think that if we do this, some ignorant fool 60 years later might post something on the internet. so lets not? of course massacres happend, why do you forget about arvanites who were hired and enslaved mercenaries for your muslim overlords?
bakaliaro 4 years ago
1940 - 1945 ? it developed then? you should stop taking expired drugs. and when you say your language, were greeks aloud and are they allowed to speak their language in "albania" albania is an ottoman entity, a millet you idiot.
bakaliaro 4 years ago
opaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
kiinngs 4 years ago
pedia zosimas traggoudi,klarino theodorou ,armonio katsikas
kiinngs 4 years ago
This is beautiful, he has a very good voice, thank you for the post!!
ptpt1414 4 years ago
tsamiko et est le Panagiotis Zosimas de KASTRAKI KALAMPAKAS (METEORA)
euagg05 4 years ago
Personne ne parle français ici ?
Bien ça vient de l'Epire mais dans quel style ça se classe ? Ce n'est pas vraiment un Tsamiko?...
Merci de me renseigner
sismaels 4 years ago
malakies lene oi alvanoi
oixalos 4 years ago 2
ante re zosima trele.
anebase file kai alla videakia an exeis.
edochristos 4 years ago
Yia sas oraia pramamata akouo.!
What is all this about Epirus belonging to Albania and that the tsamiko is Albanian?
I listened to the Albanian versions they don't even have much resemblance to the Greek. Did the tsamiko really originate there?
LiveMusicShow 4 years ago
Tsamiko originated in Çamëria (Tsamouria) which is Southern Epirus. 1940 - 1945 the Muslim Çams were massacred and expelled from their homes by Zervas. They now reside in Albania. The rest of the Orthodox Çams live in Çamëria (Greek Epirus) and they have not been permitted to speak their own language for over 60 years now. The older people still know it, the kids are just confused to what they are.
MusicOfEpirus 4 years ago
Thanks for your reply. As a Greek person living away from Greece all my life , feel very angry that ethnic minorities within Greece have been treated badly . This is wrong and should not happen . Only now in richer countries like were I live, Britain , there are laws respecting all rights of minorities .I wish good luck to my Cam brothers and love the music !
LiveMusicShow 4 years ago
Thanks for the good words and understanding. If you need more info on Epirote music, let me know. You can also browse through my music videos to get a general idea of how diverse it is. The Greek Epirote has only one character and is not polyphonic. Only late attempts of Chalkias and a couple of others have tried to make it polyphonic.
MusicOfEpirus 4 years ago
Ridiculous.
You have no idea about epirote music.
Just visit delvinaki and ask anyone there if there is polyphonic epirote songs.
Albo stop your propaganda.
Epirote music is only greek and albanians just copy greek music.
About cams,they collaborated with the italians and germans.
They massacred greeks and after the german defeat got whate they deserved.
Long Live Greek NORTH EPIRUS
giorgionegr 4 years ago
you're absolutely right!!
you have no clue what you're talking about.
MusicOfEpirus 4 years ago
Stop using a name which has nothing to do with your dirty nation.
Epirus is hellas and epirote music esisted some thousands years before you.
giorgionegr 4 years ago 2
Προσπαθώ να βρώ λέξεις εδώ και αρκετή ώρα,ώστε να κάνω κάποιο σχόλιο για το καταπληκτικό αυτό βίντεο, αλλά....
"εχω ζάλη στο κεφάλι
έχω ντέρτια και καημό
όταν ακούω το κλαρίνο
ΣΕ ΗΠΕΙΡΩΤΙΚΟ ΣΚΟΠΟ......
GoguMishiu 4 years ago 2
geisoy patrida
glinavideo 4 years ago
kai esy sto exoteriko zeis re file
Preveza4L 4 years ago
po re megaleeeeeeeee teleio aftin ine mousiki!!!!!! XAIRETIZMATA THERMA APO KOZANI!!!
Ganxta91 4 years ago
oreos poli oreos yasou file
frankalexiou 4 years ago
RE PREBEZA 4 EVER IPIROS REEE!!!!
kwronopoulo 4 years ago
this singer is my friend...i know him very well....this song is traditional greek...fuck you bastard albanians...you copy everything from greece. geia sou re patrida thessalia....opa...na zisei i ellada.
commandosgr 4 years ago
what is the name of the band? pls..
ionutprost 4 years ago
its not a band....the name of the singer is...zosimas. he's a very good singer...he sings all the kind of GREEK music.
commandosgr 4 years ago
Yeah because the Albanians have left such a rich heritage that the world admires L out fucking loud.
chicagogeorge 4 years ago
This IS EPIRO'S MUSIC NICE. Omorfa!! Yia sou Thessalia
me ta orea panigiria.
I am from ARTA EPIROS. OREA!!!!
Greetings from New York USA
PLEASE DONT POST nonsenses
Petropouliotis 4 years ago 3
ela re ipirotika...a re xorio mou....
PanDiMia 4 years ago 3
LONG LIVE EPEIROS!! OPA! ayta einai tragoudia!...And for your information VORIOS EPEIROS is GREEK! not albanian. xeretismata apo Australia paidia!
fghtrpltf16 4 years ago 4
yes i am a greek too but how come their are 200,000 greeks in albania
achilys 4 years ago
I have a feeling like a lot of them may be Vlahs. There is this thing in the Balkans....where minorities....like to identify with their neighbours...eg. Pomaks often claim to be Turks, Vlachs from Albania.... often claim to be Greeks, Moslems from Serbia and Montenegro...claim to be Bosnian.....and so on....and so on. This music sounds pretty Vlach to me....whatever language you sing it in...I hear Vlachs!
SadieMirsade 4 years ago
Sadie--My family is Vlakh form Ioannina. This is definitely NOT Vlakh music. If you want to hear some of our music check out Gramustea video. Dear Came Xhavella- do you want to know the ancestor of Klarina? Check out double flutes on ancient GREEK pottery vases.Get that? I said GREEK! Origin of Tsamiko, that's another matter.
IanHunedoara8 4 years ago
what are you talking about?
Dykefalos 4 years ago
oraia girismata
andreas1436 4 years ago
Oh, my God..Why dont u try to call those people who are singing albanians and then watch their reactions.Its really very annoying that albanians (a 50 years old nation) are claiming everything that is greek as theirs.They are nothing more than wannabe greeks.
Steald13 4 years ago
ΓΕΙΑ ΣΟΥ ΠΑΝΑΓΙΩΤΗ ΖΩΣΙΜΑ!!!
IMC584 4 years ago 2
poly kalos o zosimas(singer)
kratiste tin paradosi
hallo aus germany
spintzi 4 years ago 3
Does anyone hear albanian here??? why do people make this about politics..
Skabanis 4 years ago
oppoios exei videakia me eipiroyika as balei...
PSOLARAS23 4 years ago
Epiros.The birthplace of the Greeks Dodona.
chicagogeorge 4 years ago
awfully sweet, hence music calms the savage beast...
lucidlamp 5 years ago
berati style first song...second is done by the serres vlachs...this guys voice is amazing...the hills are echoing...
Skabanis 5 years ago 3
this reminds me wen i was little and i was at the xorio panigiri hahahaha
Grkfighter84 5 years ago
Na Zisi I Epiros!!!
Tha kaei o petros!
Klaritzis 5 years ago
ANTE RE PATRIDA!!! :)
neo307gr 5 years ago
mou glykeni kathe mera tin mera stin doulia :D
Scandalous1378 5 years ago
kalo einai na min xanete h paradosh
Klarinovios 5 years ago
Pohh Pohhh Opa Wreh Manga!
Poli Orea ta Ley!!!
Respect!!
Pes ta!! Asta ola exo manga!!
Ta Leme...
tahla92 5 years ago
paaaaaaai siga siga.. wreos rythm
kamakioriginale 5 years ago
Oraio Video.Ax mou thimise touto Kalokairi otan piga se Klarina.
jiamas 5 years ago
nice song
oTimpis 5 years ago