What's interesting is that Luke 1:43 seems to be an allusion to 2 Samuel 6:9
(Luke 1:43) And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
(2 Samuel 6:9) And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and he said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?"
This proves that (1) Mary is being connected to the Ark of the Covenant and (2) "My Lord" in Luke 1 represents deity, because the corresponding "The Lord" in 2 Samuel 6 is YHWH.
Fundamentalists say it would have been repugnant for Mary and Joseph to enter a marriage and remain celibate. They call such marriages "unnatural" arrangements. Certainly they were unusual, but not as unusual as having the Son of God in ones family, and not nearly as unusual as having a virgin give birth to a child. The Holy Family was neither an average family nor should we expect its members to act as would members of an average family.
The Blessed Joseph was respecting the Mother of God's vow of chastity. In the Orthodox Church it's traditional to the Anathemas from the 7th Ecumenical Council on the first Sunday of Lent, which includes:
"To those who dare to say that the all-pure Virgin Mary was not virgin before giving birth, during birthgiving, and after her child-birth, Anathema!"
Jesus is one indivisible God-Man. He has two natures but they are wholly inseparable. It's simple logic: if Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus is not God.
Mary is the Mother of God *within time*. She is not the mother of the Son's eternal hypostasis, of course.
But her womb contained what the entire universe cannot, and if that's not worthy of honor, I don't know what is.
As for perpetual virginity, if you think Joseph would have dared to go where God lived for 9 months...you're crazy.
@age234 Sorry..Mary is not the mother of God. She is referred to in scripture as "mother of Jesus" If you want to be even more sound correct, you can say she is the mother of Gods' humanity.
Right, but God's humanity and God's divinity is one person—Jesus Christ. So you agree that Mary is the mother of Incarnate God, but for some illogical reason you refuse to say so.
@age234 Right Jesus Christ is all God and all man. Mary gave birth to Jesus humanity, not his divinity. His divinity had no beginning. In order for Jesus to be a perfect sacrifice for sin and die, He had to have a human body. Which Mary " who is blessed among women" gave Jesus who was already God before His birth.
Jesus is God, right? We agree. The Son, eternally begotten of the Father, was conceived in her womb by the the Holy Spirit.
So, infinite God was contained in Mary's womb. God received nourishment from her body through God's umbilical cord. After nine months, that infant who is God came out of her body. Making her the Mother of God.
You are separating Christ's divinity and humanity into an almost schizophrenic two-people-in-one-body situation.
@age234 Sorry but if you say Mary is the mother of God, yes your saying she gave birth to God. Yes Jesus is God, so is the Father and so is the Holy Spirit. Did Mary give birth to them too? Infinite God was not contained in Marys womb, sorry. God is a triunity. My statment which is biblical still stands , sorry. Mary gave birth to The Word made flesh. Mary is the mother of.....
5. Jesus' humanity and divinity are inseparable, thus God
6. The Messiah is God
You refuse to say that Jesus in his physical body is fully God. Jesus Christ is infinite God in human form, fully God unto himself. He wasn't a body walking around, with his infinite divinity elsewhere. He is uncontainable God, contained in flesh.
I never said Mary was the source of God the Son, nor the source of the Trinity.
@age234 Sorry I never said Jesus wasn't God. I said Mary did not give birth to Jesus Deity, only his human body. i guess we will have to differ on the title " mother of God". We can debate till we are blue in the face. But that fact is the only true we can both have in common is the Word of God. Peace and God bless you and yours. :)
The reason we insist on "Mother of God" is because there were heresies in the early Church that said Jesus was only a human and was "indwelt" by God at his baptism, and then God "left" him at his death. Obviously this is a major problem, because then Christ is not a God-Man, he is a Man indwelt by God. Two very different things.
Therefore, since Jesus is fully Man and fully God, it is accurate to say that Mary gave birth to God, just as it's accurate to say Mary gave birth to a boy. The two natures cannot be separated from each other.
Mary did not bring God into existence, and she is not the source of God's eternal essence, but she is the birthgiver of Incarnate God, so we say Mother of God.
It has everything to do with protecting Christ's divinity, it is not for the sake of exulting Mary undeservedly.
saying that Mary was sinless is a big error. By God's grace that sin could have been erased, but there has only been one to walk the earth that was sinless. Jesus.
It is not an error it is based on the Holiness of Christ. God is the source of Holiness and he prepared a worthy Thron for himself on earth. Not made of gold or silver but made of Holiness and purity. She is the New Throne of Glory, the living Temple, the arc of the new testament, She is the seat of mercy,...
where does it say that she is the living throne of anything? And also do you believe that she is a perpetual virgin as well? If so...how could you when she had other children?
Of course she is. How could it be possible that the living Temple of God bore other children ? That is crazy...The Dogma of the perpetual virginity is christological - it belongs to the holiness of Christ...
God rests on his Holy Throne (read the OT) on the Throne of Glory, the seat of mercy...And since God "rested" in the womb of the Theotokos she can be called the Throne of God. I
Mary was a vessel for the LORD to come into the world. She in my view is the mother of Jesus. I recognize that Jesus is God in human form, but I still don't think stating that she is the mother of God is quite correct. She was not the vessel that brought God into existence into the universe. She was used to bring my Lord and Savior into this world.
The Scriptures also calls Her Mother of God: When Elisabeth said: How does it come that the Mother of my Lord (ADONAI) comes to me....She said mother of my God....Adonai is a name for God. Mother of the Lord. Mother of God is a very old term for the Holy Virgin - but it is usually a christological one. Because when Christ is true God and ture Man - His Mother can be called Mother of God.
Mother of my Lord. Hmm, so that means that she is the mother of God? Now...check this out. Jesus once said to someone "Before Abraham was, I am" What does this mean? It's saying that Jesus is God, no argument at all there. I know Jesus was fully man and God, but she wasn't the mother of God, she was the mother of Jesus. The man...the son of man. On a fully spiritual level, Mary wasn't really the mother of Jesus either. If it wasn't for Jesus..Mary would have never been created!
It is the same if u call Her Mother of God or Lord. Lord means God. The Holy Virgin gave birth to a "PERSON" and not only to a nature. So it is true to call Her Mother of God because Her son was GOD_MAN ! Christ is a whole Person and not a Nature. People often do not understand the true meaning of it but that is their problem. To call Her Mother of God means not that she is the Mother of the HOly Trinity or God in Heaven which is without beginning!
No, if you say mother of our Lord...you could be and in this case most likely are talking specifically about Jesus. Most people are led by sight and not by faith, so somebody if they saw Jesus wouldn't be like "Hey look! There's God! Let's say what's up!" They would say that's Jesus, and knowing what they know they would probably call Him their Lord. Lord means king. I know that's what Jesus and God are, but the word lord means king or simply someone who basically rules over a group of people.
Sorry u are wrong: The word Lord in the Holy Scripture does not mean Mr. or so..it means God (Adonai, Kyrios..) Nothing in the Holy Scripture is without a theological meaning..The Jews always called God - the Lord....We also pray: ...Lord Jesus Christ and want to say...our God Jesus Christ..
If you separate Jesus from God, you are treating them as two different persons who happened to occupy the same body for a span of time. This is simply false... Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man, and the two natures were not divided. Therefore, we should call Mary Mother of God or Theotokos.
basically that's how it is. Jesus is both man and God. I won't call her the mother of God, because the scriptures don't do that. And Theotokos only means Mother of God to Catholics.. Mary to truly be mother of God she would have to either be greater than God or BE God...which honestly sometimes it appears that's how Catholics view her. I went to a Catholic high school. Why did I hear more about Mary than Jesus?
If you accept that the divine and human natures of Christ are inseparable, then you must accept that Mary gave birth to God. Ergo, she is the Theotokos. The unhealthy attitude of the Papists toward Mary is rather beside the point- the title "Theotokos" is primarily a statement of Christology.
The angel wasn't asking a question, or making a suggestion! This was a decision already made by God...there was no room for argument. Mary was who God chose to carry Jesus and give birth to Him. There wasn't any room for her to negotiate.
So don't ask us this question, I don't don't believe that such a thing should even be pondered. And if you want to ask that question, go to God with it.
If she could even say no to what was about to happen to her...God would have worked it out somehow. If not with her, with someone else. You do know that God is almighty, right?
Your right God would have asked someone else, and they also could have said no or rejected it. Your explanation denies the ability to make a free choice. The God you make it out to be is a God of forced decision. Of course Mary had a choice.
Weather you like it or not God needed Mary to say yes or else Christ would not have come into this world.Mary has free will as do us all. How else could we freely choose to love God. You do believe God lets us choose to accept his grace or not do you?
I know you ment the best in this statement, but Mary most certainly did have the choice. God gives free will, but he knew by Mary's most pure and loving spirit that she would not refuse him
Theotokos means god-bearer not literally mother of god (the translation is not ideal) She bore Christ which is both god and human so she is bearer of God the son, so god-bearer. When protestants quote the Bible they forget the translation is imperfect of the original greek, besides Christianity is older than the bible.
The Literal rendering of THEOTOKOS was rejected by much of the early Church as being odd. Therefore they opted to realize that the LITERAL truth of the combined Greek terms meant that MARY was indeed the MOTHER of GOD-therefore choosing to use the translation MOTHER OF GOD in their Liturgies rather than GOD BEARER.
Yes, she is mother of god. I agree, but i'm just explaining to people that cant understand the concept they think it should mean that mary came before is is the mother of God the father. I was making it clearer that she was only mother of god the son. Theotokos was not abondoned in the orthodox church, ofcourse.
"When protestants quote the Bible they forget the translation is imperfect of the original greek"--that would wholly depend. Some translations have quite good renderings of particular verses.
Mary gives birth (and flesh) to God.....BY THE GRACE OF GOD.
She is not the origin of God; but the grace bestowed on her (as our New Eve, & our New Mother) concretises God's love for us. That is the way He wanted it. As he wanted to be born in a stable, shunned by the world. It should be a cause of joy, not an obstacle between us. The Lord God almighty upsets all our values and estimations and seeks to serve us. Not clinging to his Godhead but took real human flesh from a Jewish Maid.
to zigguret- you are right Mary was born in Sin just like every human being on this earth because they came from a seed from man. Jesus died for Mary his mothers sin as well as all the worlds
It has more to do with acknowledging the divinity the Christ as far as I know. I think that if most non-Catholic and non-Orthodox understood that it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm a proud Protestant and I call her the Theotokos. *shrugs* Makes sense to me.
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Haha OK so the church frowns upon the evidence that she was a version... So you're basing it all on the word of a teenage(?) girl who would have been in big trouble if people found out she'd been sleeping around or that she'd been raped. The Early Church fathers? So they gave her an examination? Before they knew she bore the 'son of God'? ...No i don't think they did... So what's the Early Church Fathers evidence?
Basing something so HUGE on such little evidence :S
Not at all, we base our evidence on the testimony of hundreds upon hundreds of early Christian writers. The Early Church Fathers and their "Evidence" comes directly from the Apostles themselves--who were the closest to Christ. Now if you reject the Bible, then you reject all the Apostles then in turn you reject ALL the Early Church Fathers and of course then this becomes a problem about authority and I can't really FORCE you to believe something.
In order to understand the Marian Doctrines you'd have to first be a Christian, because then at least we'd have SOME common ground. But obviously you're not---so the real underlying issue is your prevailing atheism over Christianity.
The fact of the matter is that no historical or geographical or any sort of error has ever been definitively proven from the Bible. The Bible is our most accurate ancient collection of documents and your choice to reject it is purely out of your traditional upbringing and nothing to do with the evidence. Cause the evidence that supports the Bible is overwhelming. ;-)
Elizabeth uses "Adonai" which means "Lord God" in Luke 1:43 when she says "And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Jesus is refered as "Lord of the Sabbath" in Mt 12:8, Mk 2:28 & Lk 6:5. He is the Lord of God's law. That is how Elizabeth used "Lord."
You cannot separate the natures of Jesus, which are Divine & human. If Mary is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God then it only stands that Mary is the Mother of God. Very simple. ;)
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You sure she was a virgin?
Was she medically examined to check that her Hymen was still intact when she was found with child?
I don't understand why Joseph didn't consummate the marriage?
The Mother of God musta been hot right? So why did he hold back?
Feigning ignorance would have been a clever idea for hiding the fact that you'd been sleeping around... People in those times would have believed anything.......
The only account that shows her hymen was intact is an apocryphal account that the Catholic Church does not take as inspired. The consummation of a marriage didn't always equal sexual intercourse. There are Biblical passages and early historical evidence for the existence of consecrated virgins entering into marriage. Our evidence is derived from the fact that Scripture does not say she lost her virginity and the testimony of all the early Christians. :-)
People in those times would have NOT believed anything, or else the Jews would have accepted Christ as their Messiah--they did not--hence the Crucifixion.
Some believed hence his disciples. Then after the Crucifixion everyone fell hook line and sinker :)
Mmm Hmm... Now I'm confused as to why anyone would have medically examined her and then published the results (before they knew she bore the 'son of god'). A little toooo convenient if you ask me...
Why Mary? was she sin free?
What's the deal with Jesus' childhood?... no1 ever hears about that must been lame leading a sin free childhood!
Incorrect again, in fact after the Crucifixion Christianity was persecuted the most. As far as medically examined, such proper terminology need not be used---and once more you might have misunderstood--I said that account of her being examined was SPURIOUS--so your comments all fail here. Mary sin free? Absolutely. Jesus and his childhood simply are absent from our historical records..yet we do have a SHORT glimpse into his early childhood just not an EXTENSIVE one.
well not immediately after the crucifixion. Obviously the story needed a bit of time to get exaggerated over and over till people cared :P
Hehe funny you should use spurious... Was Jesus a bastard? technically yes but then i guess he's approved by god so no?
And why would my comment fail if the accounts weren't reliable? That means there's a possibility that she slept around and then lied about it. A possibility that is highly likely as Super Sperm with teleportation powers are pretty rare
If the story got exaggerated over time we'd expect some sort of interpolations in early Greek Documents--or the such in the early writings of theologians in the first century and on---->Jesus is not a bastard because he was begot by the Holy Spirit---learn your theology ;-)
And again you fail to grasp my comment. My point about the "spurious" documents is that the Catholic Church does not RELY on such documents and actually frowns down upon them. So again you fail ahhahahaha. You missed it!
Once more, the Church uses reliable first hand accounts, testimony from the first century onward--from the Deposit of the Faith that has been held from the beginning. Spurious documents mean nothing to us--so criticize them all you want ;-)
You have to realize that unlike our modern culture which is saturated with the western culture of sex sex sex--things back then were quite different. A consecrated virgin in a married state wasn't out of this world back in those times
so in order for your position to hold any viability--you're gonna have to show me that such was an oddity, or present some sort of evidence that Mary was NOT a virgin. I have all the Early Church Fathers that claim she was-SIEMPRE VIRGEN--you have to present evidence to the contrary. Good luck ;-)
Thank you very much. I'll be loading up a rebuttal of the Protesant objection to the Priesthood later on this week. I would have filmed the video sooner but I had lost my Septuagint and I use the majority of sources from the Septuagint. You can catch that video later on this week as well. GOD BLESS you!
Elizabeth said, "Who is this that the mother of my lord should come to me?" Up until the Nativity - maybe even after that - the Lord was God. Therefore Mary is the Mother of God.
For those who have a problem giving Mary any honor, it would serve them well to remember that her blood ran through the veins of Jesus, her son and our Lord and Savior. Do not disregard her as unimportant or "just a vessel" for Christ. She was highly favored by God and the first Christian to profess our faith.
I like that you made reference to the Orthodox Church as well. They are one of the few to give Mary her due and have always done so. She is and forever will be, Theotokos.
Some crazy heretics are so eager to refute Catholicism, they end up jettisoning the Holy Trinity and Incarnation. They should follow thier own advice and "carefully study" the Scripture.
I do. Catholics come up with stuff that's not even in the bible. Such as Mary being a perpetual virgin.
"Mary remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin."
Do you think that this means that she is a perpetual virgin? Come on now. This point just drives home that she truly was a virgin when Christ was born. When He was born...not FOREVER!
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? "
Mark 6:3
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."
I heard once that they weren't really his brothers and sisters..they were cousins.
You really have no understanding of early church teaching and of the Bible.
The scripture completely shows that they were not his brothers.
In Mark 15:40, we read, There were also women looking on from a distance; among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome." Obviously they were the sons of the OThER MARY. You do not have tradition in your church so I wouldnt expect you to understand anything
What's interesting is that Luke 1:43 seems to be an allusion to 2 Samuel 6:9
(Luke 1:43) And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
(2 Samuel 6:9) And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and he said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?"
This proves that (1) Mary is being connected to the Ark of the Covenant and (2) "My Lord" in Luke 1 represents deity, because the corresponding "The Lord" in 2 Samuel 6 is YHWH.
KabaneTheChristian 2 months ago
I don't disagree with the content of your video, but I am amused that you pronounce it "niv" (I only hear people say "en, eye, vee") ;)
XSC3 1 year ago
Fundamentalists say it would have been repugnant for Mary and Joseph to enter a marriage and remain celibate. They call such marriages "unnatural" arrangements. Certainly they were unusual, but not as unusual as having the Son of God in ones family, and not nearly as unusual as having a virgin give birth to a child. The Holy Family was neither an average family nor should we expect its members to act as would members of an average family.
mannyfit75 2 years ago
The Blessed Joseph was respecting the Mother of God's vow of chastity. In the Orthodox Church it's traditional to the Anathemas from the 7th Ecumenical Council on the first Sunday of Lent, which includes:
"To those who dare to say that the all-pure Virgin Mary was not virgin before giving birth, during birthgiving, and after her child-birth, Anathema!"
age234 2 years ago
Jesus is one indivisible God-Man. He has two natures but they are wholly inseparable. It's simple logic: if Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus is not God.
Mary is the Mother of God *within time*. She is not the mother of the Son's eternal hypostasis, of course.
But her womb contained what the entire universe cannot, and if that's not worthy of honor, I don't know what is.
As for perpetual virginity, if you think Joseph would have dared to go where God lived for 9 months...you're crazy.
age234 2 years ago
@age234 Sorry..Mary is not the mother of God. She is referred to in scripture as "mother of Jesus" If you want to be even more sound correct, you can say she is the mother of Gods' humanity.
Utubing74 2 years ago
Right, but God's humanity and God's divinity is one person—Jesus Christ. So you agree that Mary is the mother of Incarnate God, but for some illogical reason you refuse to say so.
age234 2 years ago
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Utubing74 2 years ago
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@age234 Right Jesus Christ is all God and all man. Mary gave birth to Jesus humanity, not his divinity. His divinity had no beginning. In order for Jesus to be a perfect sacrifice for sin and die, He had to have a human body. Which Mary " who is blessed among women" gave Jesus who was already God before His birth.
Utubing74 2 years ago
Nobody said Mary gave birth to his divinity.
Jesus is God, right? We agree. The Son, eternally begotten of the Father, was conceived in her womb by the the Holy Spirit.
So, infinite God was contained in Mary's womb. God received nourishment from her body through God's umbilical cord. After nine months, that infant who is God came out of her body. Making her the Mother of God.
You are separating Christ's divinity and humanity into an almost schizophrenic two-people-in-one-body situation.
age234 2 years ago
@age234 Sorry but if you say Mary is the mother of God, yes your saying she gave birth to God. Yes Jesus is God, so is the Father and so is the Holy Spirit. Did Mary give birth to them too? Infinite God was not contained in Marys womb, sorry. God is a triunity. My statment which is biblical still stands , sorry. Mary gave birth to The Word made flesh. Mary is the mother of.....
1.Jesus
2. The Word made flesh
3. the incarnation
4. The Lord "which means Master"
5. Jesus humanity
6. The Messiah
Utubing74 2 years ago
1. Jesus is God
2. The Word is God
3. Incarnate God
4. The Lord God
5. Jesus' humanity and divinity are inseparable, thus God
6. The Messiah is God
You refuse to say that Jesus in his physical body is fully God. Jesus Christ is infinite God in human form, fully God unto himself. He wasn't a body walking around, with his infinite divinity elsewhere. He is uncontainable God, contained in flesh.
I never said Mary was the source of God the Son, nor the source of the Trinity.
age234 2 years ago
The Father is uncreated. He is fully God.
The Son is begotten of the Father. He is fully God.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. He is fully God.
Jesus Christ is the Son, fully God, made flesh. He is not God *inside* a physical body, he is God *as* a physical body.
Jesus' body is God. As the song Mary Did You Know says, "When you kiss your little baby, you kiss the face of God."
Thus, the infant Jesus is fully the God of the universe Himself. So, Mary gave birth to God. Mother of God.
age234 2 years ago
@age234 Sorry I never said Jesus wasn't God. I said Mary did not give birth to Jesus Deity, only his human body. i guess we will have to differ on the title " mother of God". We can debate till we are blue in the face. But that fact is the only true we can both have in common is the Word of God. Peace and God bless you and yours. :)
Utubing74 2 years ago
She is not the eternal source of his divinity, but she most certainly gave birth to a God-Man.
age234 2 years ago
@age234 That I can agree on. : )
Utubing74 2 years ago
Oh good.
The reason we insist on "Mother of God" is because there were heresies in the early Church that said Jesus was only a human and was "indwelt" by God at his baptism, and then God "left" him at his death. Obviously this is a major problem, because then Christ is not a God-Man, he is a Man indwelt by God. Two very different things.
age234 2 years ago
(cont.)
Therefore, since Jesus is fully Man and fully God, it is accurate to say that Mary gave birth to God, just as it's accurate to say Mary gave birth to a boy. The two natures cannot be separated from each other.
Mary did not bring God into existence, and she is not the source of God's eternal essence, but she is the birthgiver of Incarnate God, so we say Mother of God.
It has everything to do with protecting Christ's divinity, it is not for the sake of exulting Mary undeservedly.
age234 2 years ago
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Prayers to Mary are SIN
Prayers to Mary are wasted
Prayers to Mary are not Biblicial
Mary had Sin Mary is a Sinner acording to the Bible
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me.
it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
valu777 2 years ago
saying that Mary was sinless is a big error. By God's grace that sin could have been erased, but there has only been one to walk the earth that was sinless. Jesus.
siamus 3 years ago
It is not an error it is based on the Holiness of Christ. God is the source of Holiness and he prepared a worthy Thron for himself on earth. Not made of gold or silver but made of Holiness and purity. She is the New Throne of Glory, the living Temple, the arc of the new testament, She is the seat of mercy,...
adamantis4657 3 years ago
where does it say that she is the living throne of anything? And also do you believe that she is a perpetual virgin as well? If so...how could you when she had other children?
siamus 3 years ago
Of course she is. How could it be possible that the living Temple of God bore other children ? That is crazy...The Dogma of the perpetual virginity is christological - it belongs to the holiness of Christ...
adamantis4657 3 years ago
God rests on his Holy Throne (read the OT) on the Throne of Glory, the seat of mercy...And since God "rested" in the womb of the Theotokos she can be called the Throne of God. I
adamantis4657 3 years ago
Mary was a vessel for the LORD to come into the world. She in my view is the mother of Jesus. I recognize that Jesus is God in human form, but I still don't think stating that she is the mother of God is quite correct. She was not the vessel that brought God into existence into the universe. She was used to bring my Lord and Savior into this world.
siamus 3 years ago
The Scriptures also calls Her Mother of God: When Elisabeth said: How does it come that the Mother of my Lord (ADONAI) comes to me....She said mother of my God....Adonai is a name for God. Mother of the Lord. Mother of God is a very old term for the Holy Virgin - but it is usually a christological one. Because when Christ is true God and ture Man - His Mother can be called Mother of God.
adamantis4657 3 years ago
Mother of my Lord. Hmm, so that means that she is the mother of God? Now...check this out. Jesus once said to someone "Before Abraham was, I am" What does this mean? It's saying that Jesus is God, no argument at all there. I know Jesus was fully man and God, but she wasn't the mother of God, she was the mother of Jesus. The man...the son of man. On a fully spiritual level, Mary wasn't really the mother of Jesus either. If it wasn't for Jesus..Mary would have never been created!
siamus 3 years ago
It is the same if u call Her Mother of God or Lord. Lord means God. The Holy Virgin gave birth to a "PERSON" and not only to a nature. So it is true to call Her Mother of God because Her son was GOD_MAN ! Christ is a whole Person and not a Nature. People often do not understand the true meaning of it but that is their problem. To call Her Mother of God means not that she is the Mother of the HOly Trinity or God in Heaven which is without beginning!
adamantis4657 3 years ago
No, if you say mother of our Lord...you could be and in this case most likely are talking specifically about Jesus. Most people are led by sight and not by faith, so somebody if they saw Jesus wouldn't be like "Hey look! There's God! Let's say what's up!" They would say that's Jesus, and knowing what they know they would probably call Him their Lord. Lord means king. I know that's what Jesus and God are, but the word lord means king or simply someone who basically rules over a group of people.
siamus 3 years ago
Sorry u are wrong: The word Lord in the Holy Scripture does not mean Mr. or so..it means God (Adonai, Kyrios..) Nothing in the Holy Scripture is without a theological meaning..The Jews always called God - the Lord....We also pray: ...Lord Jesus Christ and want to say...our God Jesus Christ..
adamantis4657 3 years ago
If you separate Jesus from God, you are treating them as two different persons who happened to occupy the same body for a span of time. This is simply false... Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man, and the two natures were not divided. Therefore, we should call Mary Mother of God or Theotokos.
avantibarbari 3 years ago
basically that's how it is. Jesus is both man and God. I won't call her the mother of God, because the scriptures don't do that. And Theotokos only means Mother of God to Catholics.. Mary to truly be mother of God she would have to either be greater than God or BE God...which honestly sometimes it appears that's how Catholics view her. I went to a Catholic high school. Why did I hear more about Mary than Jesus?
siamus 3 years ago
If you accept that the divine and human natures of Christ are inseparable, then you must accept that Mary gave birth to God. Ergo, she is the Theotokos. The unhealthy attitude of the Papists toward Mary is rather beside the point- the title "Theotokos" is primarily a statement of Christology.
avantibarbari 3 years ago
I have a question....What if Mary told the Angel No? Were would Christ have come from???????
oneholycatholic 2 years ago
The angel wasn't asking a question, or making a suggestion! This was a decision already made by God...there was no room for argument. Mary was who God chose to carry Jesus and give birth to Him. There wasn't any room for her to negotiate.
So don't ask us this question, I don't don't believe that such a thing should even be pondered. And if you want to ask that question, go to God with it.
siamus 2 years ago
If she could even say no to what was about to happen to her...God would have worked it out somehow. If not with her, with someone else. You do know that God is almighty, right?
siamus 2 years ago
Your right God would have asked someone else, and they also could have said no or rejected it. Your explanation denies the ability to make a free choice. The God you make it out to be is a God of forced decision. Of course Mary had a choice.
Weather you like it or not God needed Mary to say yes or else Christ would not have come into this world.Mary has free will as do us all. How else could we freely choose to love God. You do believe God lets us choose to accept his grace or not do you?
oneholycatholic 2 years ago
I know you ment the best in this statement, but Mary most certainly did have the choice. God gives free will, but he knew by Mary's most pure and loving spirit that she would not refuse him
slavicman09 2 years ago
Theotokos means god-bearer not literally mother of god (the translation is not ideal) She bore Christ which is both god and human so she is bearer of God the son, so god-bearer. When protestants quote the Bible they forget the translation is imperfect of the original greek, besides Christianity is older than the bible.
22poopoo 3 years ago
The Literal rendering of THEOTOKOS was rejected by much of the early Church as being odd. Therefore they opted to realize that the LITERAL truth of the combined Greek terms meant that MARY was indeed the MOTHER of GOD-therefore choosing to use the translation MOTHER OF GOD in their Liturgies rather than GOD BEARER.
gnrhead 3 years ago
Yes, she is mother of god. I agree, but i'm just explaining to people that cant understand the concept they think it should mean that mary came before is is the mother of God the father. I was making it clearer that she was only mother of god the son. Theotokos was not abondoned in the orthodox church, ofcourse.
22poopoo 3 years ago
"When protestants quote the Bible they forget the translation is imperfect of the original greek"--that would wholly depend. Some translations have quite good renderings of particular verses.
gnrhead 3 years ago
Mary gives birth (and flesh) to God.....BY THE GRACE OF GOD.
She is not the origin of God; but the grace bestowed on her (as our New Eve, & our New Mother) concretises God's love for us. That is the way He wanted it. As he wanted to be born in a stable, shunned by the world. It should be a cause of joy, not an obstacle between us. The Lord God almighty upsets all our values and estimations and seeks to serve us. Not clinging to his Godhead but took real human flesh from a Jewish Maid.
wilts43 1 year ago
Mary is the mother of Jesus THE HUMAN/MAN!!!
She is not the mother of Jesus the Son of God. The begotten son that was slain before the foundations of the world.
John 1; 1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word [JESUS], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2.The same was in the beginning with God.
3.All things were MADE BY HIM; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Everything was made by Jesus including Mary. Mary is a sinful Human who shouldn't be worshiped.
TSwainson 3 years ago
Just because Mary was the Mother of Jesus Christ did'nt mean that she was sinless. You go to some extreme Conclusions in your points,
I would just like to say Hebrews 10:5 shows that it's something soverignly done by God.
"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"
Mary was simply just a vehicle used of God to Bring His Son into the World. And Mary was a sinner
Zigguret 3 years ago
to zigguret- you are right Mary was born in Sin just like every human being on this earth because they came from a seed from man. Jesus died for Mary his mothers sin as well as all the worlds
stopplayingchurch 3 years ago
It has more to do with acknowledging the divinity the Christ as far as I know. I think that if most non-Catholic and non-Orthodox understood that it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm a proud Protestant and I call her the Theotokos. *shrugs* Makes sense to me.
Sohaila95 3 years ago
Thank you for another great post.
chantguy520 3 years ago
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Haha OK so the church frowns upon the evidence that she was a version... So you're basing it all on the word of a teenage(?) girl who would have been in big trouble if people found out she'd been sleeping around or that she'd been raped. The Early Church fathers? So they gave her an examination? Before they knew she bore the 'son of God'? ...No i don't think they did... So what's the Early Church Fathers evidence?
Basing something so HUGE on such little evidence :S
Risky...
Shmyea 3 years ago
Not at all, we base our evidence on the testimony of hundreds upon hundreds of early Christian writers. The Early Church Fathers and their "Evidence" comes directly from the Apostles themselves--who were the closest to Christ. Now if you reject the Bible, then you reject all the Apostles then in turn you reject ALL the Early Church Fathers and of course then this becomes a problem about authority and I can't really FORCE you to believe something.
gnrhead 3 years ago
In order to understand the Marian Doctrines you'd have to first be a Christian, because then at least we'd have SOME common ground. But obviously you're not---so the real underlying issue is your prevailing atheism over Christianity.
gnrhead 3 years ago
The fact of the matter is that no historical or geographical or any sort of error has ever been definitively proven from the Bible. The Bible is our most accurate ancient collection of documents and your choice to reject it is purely out of your traditional upbringing and nothing to do with the evidence. Cause the evidence that supports the Bible is overwhelming. ;-)
gnrhead 3 years ago
Well done! Keep up the great work defending and sharing our Catholic faith!
Summerly03 3 years ago
AMEN! Great video!
Elizabeth uses "Adonai" which means "Lord God" in Luke 1:43 when she says "And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Jesus is refered as "Lord of the Sabbath" in Mt 12:8, Mk 2:28 & Lk 6:5. He is the Lord of God's law. That is how Elizabeth used "Lord."
You cannot separate the natures of Jesus, which are Divine & human. If Mary is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God then it only stands that Mary is the Mother of God. Very simple. ;)
1Hope4All 3 years ago
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You sure she was a virgin?
Was she medically examined to check that her Hymen was still intact when she was found with child?
I don't understand why Joseph didn't consummate the marriage?
The Mother of God musta been hot right? So why did he hold back?
Feigning ignorance would have been a clever idea for hiding the fact that you'd been sleeping around... People in those times would have believed anything.......
From your favourite Heathen Rat :P
Shmyea 3 years ago
The only account that shows her hymen was intact is an apocryphal account that the Catholic Church does not take as inspired. The consummation of a marriage didn't always equal sexual intercourse. There are Biblical passages and early historical evidence for the existence of consecrated virgins entering into marriage. Our evidence is derived from the fact that Scripture does not say she lost her virginity and the testimony of all the early Christians. :-)
gnrhead 3 years ago
People in those times would have NOT believed anything, or else the Jews would have accepted Christ as their Messiah--they did not--hence the Crucifixion.
gnrhead 3 years ago
Some believed hence his disciples. Then after the Crucifixion everyone fell hook line and sinker :)
Mmm Hmm... Now I'm confused as to why anyone would have medically examined her and then published the results (before they knew she bore the 'son of god'). A little toooo convenient if you ask me...
Why Mary? was she sin free?
What's the deal with Jesus' childhood?... no1 ever hears about that must been lame leading a sin free childhood!
I put it to you that Jesus wasn't the son of god.
Shmyea 3 years ago
Incorrect again, in fact after the Crucifixion Christianity was persecuted the most. As far as medically examined, such proper terminology need not be used---and once more you might have misunderstood--I said that account of her being examined was SPURIOUS--so your comments all fail here. Mary sin free? Absolutely. Jesus and his childhood simply are absent from our historical records..yet we do have a SHORT glimpse into his early childhood just not an EXTENSIVE one.
gnrhead 3 years ago
well not immediately after the crucifixion. Obviously the story needed a bit of time to get exaggerated over and over till people cared :P
Hehe funny you should use spurious... Was Jesus a bastard? technically yes but then i guess he's approved by god so no?
And why would my comment fail if the accounts weren't reliable? That means there's a possibility that she slept around and then lied about it. A possibility that is highly likely as Super Sperm with teleportation powers are pretty rare
:]
Shmyea 3 years ago
If the story got exaggerated over time we'd expect some sort of interpolations in early Greek Documents--or the such in the early writings of theologians in the first century and on---->Jesus is not a bastard because he was begot by the Holy Spirit---learn your theology ;-)
And again you fail to grasp my comment. My point about the "spurious" documents is that the Catholic Church does not RELY on such documents and actually frowns down upon them. So again you fail ahhahahaha. You missed it!
gnrhead 3 years ago
Once more, the Church uses reliable first hand accounts, testimony from the first century onward--from the Deposit of the Faith that has been held from the beginning. Spurious documents mean nothing to us--so criticize them all you want ;-)
You have to realize that unlike our modern culture which is saturated with the western culture of sex sex sex--things back then were quite different. A consecrated virgin in a married state wasn't out of this world back in those times
gnrhead 3 years ago
so in order for your position to hold any viability--you're gonna have to show me that such was an oddity, or present some sort of evidence that Mary was NOT a virgin. I have all the Early Church Fathers that claim she was-SIEMPRE VIRGEN--you have to present evidence to the contrary. Good luck ;-)
gnrhead 3 years ago
Great video, a nice summation of the doctrine! Excellent work!
Keep promoting the one true faith!
SaintMichaelsMedia 3 years ago 2
Thank you very much. I'll be loading up a rebuttal of the Protesant objection to the Priesthood later on this week. I would have filmed the video sooner but I had lost my Septuagint and I use the majority of sources from the Septuagint. You can catch that video later on this week as well. GOD BLESS you!
gnrhead 3 years ago
Elizabeth said, "Who is this that the mother of my lord should come to me?" Up until the Nativity - maybe even after that - the Lord was God. Therefore Mary is the Mother of God.
lourdesgirl101 3 years ago
For those who have a problem giving Mary any honor, it would serve them well to remember that her blood ran through the veins of Jesus, her son and our Lord and Savior. Do not disregard her as unimportant or "just a vessel" for Christ. She was highly favored by God and the first Christian to profess our faith.
I like that you made reference to the Orthodox Church as well. They are one of the few to give Mary her due and have always done so. She is and forever will be, Theotokos.
PatristicEchoes 3 years ago
Some crazy heretics are so eager to refute Catholicism, they end up jettisoning the Holy Trinity and Incarnation. They should follow thier own advice and "carefully study" the Scripture.
lukewarm25 3 years ago 2
I do. Catholics come up with stuff that's not even in the bible. Such as Mary being a perpetual virgin.
"Mary remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin."
Do you think that this means that she is a perpetual virgin? Come on now. This point just drives home that she truly was a virgin when Christ was born. When He was born...not FOREVER!
siamus 2 years ago
Matthew 13:55 '
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? "
Mark 6:3
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."
I heard once that they weren't really his brothers and sisters..they were cousins.
So God doesn't know what's going on?
siamus 2 years ago
You really have no understanding of early church teaching and of the Bible.
The scripture completely shows that they were not his brothers.
In Mark 15:40, we read, There were also women looking on from a distance; among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome." Obviously they were the sons of the OThER MARY. You do not have tradition in your church so I wouldnt expect you to understand anything
slavicman09 2 years ago
@siamus
Mary is the Perpetual Virgin. It has been a part of Christian tradition which is still believe in the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.
It is the Protestant or Evangelical who have a problem with this belief.
mannyfit75 2 years ago