4 Lanes of the Emerging Church

[YouTubricant]

Lane #4 and proud of it. :)

[frithar]

Wow, ummmm.... I read Velvet Elvis twice and I don;t remember that part-- is it possible he asked a question as an example and used that to make a point but wasn't saying he doesn't really think it's valid? Careful what words you put in Bell's mouth-- I've heard many people declare that he said certain things he's never never said. I'll have to buy a copy of VE now...

[thegraduatee]

I agree that sin is sin all the same and no sin is too great to be forgiven through Jesus. The bible also says when we believe in Jesus we are dead to sin but alive in Christ, which means we value him far more than ALL these things hence don't go after them. There are straight people who never marry and, if you're a Christian, that means no sexual relations with another person for life. The real question: is Jesus enough or do you also HAVE TO have sex, money, health, popularity, success...etc?

[gretanojoke]

Mark Driscoll is not telling the truth here; he uses secular reasoning to grow churches rather than the true gospel. He's a change agent and uses the dialectic. Obama-lite

[MrSB1274]

@gretanojoke : He uses secular reasoning to grow churches?? Um no, jesus is growing his church through mars hill and many other churches. I've never heard Mark teach anything other than the bible. Swing and a miss. Where did the "obama-lite" come from?

[boblee747]

Not other group of sinners is Like the Homosexual group. They are basically committing a sin that violates another persons humanity and they spread disease to all of us. Also, No other group of sinners is so clearly wrong and has gone corporate in their violant and adamant seeking of approval of others through both in your face display of "gay Pride" and to overthrow of 6000 years of human morals and Civil laws!! Can you Imagane the legal embrace of the "liars Pride"? Murderers Pride

[xVyKariousx]

@boblee747

Did you know that STD's can be just as easily spread through heterosexual intercourse? I know, I was shocked too. And how can you get "diseases" from gay people unless you're having sex with them yourself?

[mj76d]

The most repeated command in the bible is "Do not fear!" I can't make sense of hanging on to Jesus because I am so frightened of going to hell.

[trackguy2]

i can't take mark driscoll seriously with that shirt on... i think its just a tad inappropriate for a pastor to be wearing that during his sermon

[CaptainSmoothie]

@trackguy2 Why is it inappropriate? Is that your thought? Or Gods?

[trackguy2]

@CaptainSmoothie i said i feel its a tad inappropriate being that hes a pastor and the shirt could be taken the wrong way or be offensive to someone because its a confusing shirt.... so my thought i guess

[CaptainSmoothie]

@trackguy2 So Jesus doesn't like music is what you're saying??? jk man I just don't get why cloths matter to people so much.

[daciple]

Emerging Church is bad period, I dunno why anyone would want to label themselves under this ignorant banner. I have no problem with Mark himself as I have heard of him so far, but this whole lets change the Gospel and how we present it to fit the Culture is the exact PROBLEM with the Culture and with the Emerging Church. My Bible says the Lord and Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow so is the Gospel and we should strive to preach as Paul and the Apostles preach not New Nonesense...

[Nightwing20]

lol... "Emerging Reformers, this is my team so obviously it's the right one!" For those who criticize Mark Driscoll...THAT WAS A JOKE. But his list of Emerging Reformers are amazing and wonderful pastors and authors. So even though it was a joke, I would have to personally agree with it being the "right lane"

[christofu92]

well said Mark!

[DuneWest]

"Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth" 2 Timothy 3:15

So, does this scripture mean that some person out there can WRONGLY divide the Word of Truth???----YES!

Friends, there is a verse that says something like; be sober, be vigilant because your adversary the devil goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8

[777Aaronw1]

It's interesting because of Bell new book coming out that has caused a lot of controversy. I don't get what Bell is trying to say in his video about the book Love Wins, ugh it gives me a head ache. I am very glad that we have guys like Mark to help clarify things and understand just a little more since it seems like the Emergant liberals dodge a lot questions.

[oceaneyess67]

When I seen the "mars hill logo" i became concerned didnt know why just something felt wrong so glad i continued to listen now i know why it felt wrong rob bell uses that name. Way to go Pastor excellent word.

[tylerhamlet]

RB was using a Rabbinic teaching method that Jesus used when he spoke of the King who gave his servants talents. He used Herod as the king that represented God in that parable.The Rabbinic method is this. If "A" is true how greater still is "B"? So if "A" is true of even Herod, how greater is it of God. If the teachings of the bible are alone powerful how greater powerful are they because Jesus is Lord. Which Bell goes on to say. I love your stuff Mark but you short sheeted Bell on this account

[TheJackOfHearts91]

The idea that you can take away the virgin birth and not lose anything, in my opinion, hinges on two things. Would it make Jesus any less God, and would it make Jesus any less man.

[AtheistsBane]

@TheJackOfHearts91 Yes, God would not be God if he had been convieved in a natural way. The whole idea of the virgin birth is so that man's sinful nature would not be passed on to Christ. Had he not been conceived of the Holy Spirit, he would have been born into the sin nature that everyone is born with and because he is God this could not be so (it would go against his very nature). See Romans 5:18

[TheJackOfHearts91]

@AtheistsBane I do see what you're saying, however to hinge Jesus' divinity on conception detracts from his divinity. If God is all powerful, than either can be true. God chose to send the Messiah, it doesn't matter how, it matters that he did.

[nathanaellockhart]

@TheJackOfHearts91 It might not matter but as Mark Driscoll said, the bible says Jesus was born of a virgin and thats why we believe it. Why ignore something in the bible and call yourself a christian?

[nathanaellockhart]

@TheJackOfHearts91 

[DuneWest]

@TheJackOfHearts91 Nice try---The virgin birth of Jesus Christ is a doctrinal TRUTH. One cannot pick and choose what he/she wants as being the Truth from the bible. To do so, is to be venturing out on dangerous territory! You either believe the bible in its entirety as the infalible Word of God or don't believe it at all. Discuss it all you want, but the doctrinal Truths of God's Holy Word are not up for debate.

[Apemano]

@TheJackOfHearts91 Its a string that unravels everything. If Jesus was not born of a virgin, the Gospels are incorrect, the OT prophecies about a virgin birth are incorrect and the NT letters that are connected by reference to either or both become untrustworthy. Some things (as bell puts it ) are springs on a trampoline that can lose one or two and the thing still works. But these things are mode of baptism, speaking in tongues, end times belief, women pastors, NOT trinity, virgin birth etc

[christofu92]

@TheJackOfHearts91 it would make God a liar because it was prophesied in scripture hundreds of years before Christ's birth.

[Icannottolerateit]

I thought the idea was to move toward the Christianity of the apostles as opposed to all these "new interpretations, new methods, etc".

Elijah rebuilt the ORIGINAL altar.

Isaac dug the wells his father had originally dug, but had been filled with dirt.

A return to the origin means a return of the same results. This means another Welsh Revival. This means Church continuing for days and days. This means no man tailored schedule, meaning a return to spontaneity. This means CONVERSIONS.

[Pharaoh481]

Why is questioning what you are told bad? If I told you I had a rock that kept tigers away, wouldn't you question if it was a true statement?

[bluesyboypete]

I am an evangelical, but I think Wayne Grudem is not a great theologian, sorry. He gets narrow-minded when interacting with other people's arguments, but worse than that, he misrepresents them (especially people that are more intelligent than him, such as Gordon Fee)

[mottledbrain]

A seven minute talk without mentioning The Church that Jesus Christ Himself instituted!

There is no 'emerging church'. The Church our Lord instituted still exists and 'the gates of hell will never master it.'

[cfloate13]

@mottledbrain yes that is true but driscoll is talking about the different styles of "church" that is emerging today that may not exactly be what the early church in Acts did..and yes we are all the church of Christ if we are saved through Christ but this is something different as in different belief systems regarding the church, etc

[BearBarton53]

Sorry, I can't hear what this guy is saying - his "Champion spark plug" jacket makes me think he just crawled out from under a car and decided to be an expert on all that is evangelical.

[cfloate13]

@BearBarton53 well he kinda went to seminary for a good while so im pretty sure he as a good idea of what he is talking about theologically because he simply expresses what the Bible has to say

[christopherlomas]

Aren't we supposed to be loving of each other as 'the Church'? Not bashing each other on the web!

[filoIII]

culturally connected? 2Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, he doesn't believe in all the evangelical distinctives, such as 1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. James4:4b whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.--this is the bilind leading the blind

[jasonacousticwaller]

we need to be culturally connected to some extent. This doesn't mean we compromise our love for God or doctrine taught in Scripture. The gospel stays the same while our method of presenting it is more relevant with people today.

Even Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:22

"I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some." Just food for thought; not trying to argue with my fellow Christian brother or sister :)

[filoIII]

can I go back to the bars and booze it up to "win" some to the Lord? you have a HUGE problem if you're thinking Paul said to become like the world to win the world to Christ.  this gospel isn't the same today w/ the different versions, and these new 'methods' may very well be the reason the Church is in the condition it's in--with slackers and false converts littering the pews

[Icannottolerateit]

@filoIII One needs to only present the Gospel WITHOUT even CONSIDERING the culture.

It is absurd to think Peter knew about Greek culture and tailored his message to fit that culture. Peter was Peter, regardless of environment.

Why would one need to tailor the message of being healed of blindness? A blind man's state is the same regardless of culture, and his desires to see is exactly the same.

[cfloate13]

@filoIII we are supposed to be in the world and not of the world :)

[filoIII]

this false teacher is speaking about the emerging church? I'm sure he knows all about it

[cfloate13]

@filoIII so what do you believe kind sir?

[DavidisGritz]

Driscoll takes the Rob Bell quote totally out of it's context within the book. How many times has that also been done in a destructive way with a verse of scripture. I agree that being liberal on so many of those issues is destructive to the faith, and goes against the bible, but many of those issues that he mentioned, Rob Bell also disagrees with. Driscoll should not make such strong broad statements and then classify a person as having all those beliefs.

[cfloate13]

@DavidisGritz umm im pretty sure that bell meant the quote that if we take away the virign birth then it takes away nothing but i do see ur side of things...but he was just putting people in classes if the theology in which they believe..there is nothing wrong with that he is just telling people what others believe the bible says

[krinorik]

A lot of Christians are interested in what's going on with the emergent church. I thought this was good to hear Mark talk of the differences in the emergent movement. Simple.

[josephandtavifa]

Now, if you suspect someone is a false teacher and you want to confront them on false teaching, do it Biblically. Do it publicly. If he is simply a sinning elder, then he should be confronted "in the presence of all" (1 Timothy 5:19-20). If he turns out to be a man who simply was in error (like Peter, Galatians 2:11-21), then he will consent to wholesome words (1 Timothy 6:3). If he turns out to actually be a false teacher, he will not consent (1 Timothy 6:3-5)

[weightofglory]

The most telling thing is that despite this unwarranted and unprovoked criticism Rob Bell has remained silent on Driscoll.

Bell tells us what he stands for while Driscoll rages against people he doesn't like. If Driscoll was secure in what he believed he wouldn't have to say stuff like this, he'd just keep preaching what he was for rather than wasting his time on this.

I know who I would rather listen to.

[fullback292]

//Bell tells us what he stands for while Driscoll rages against people he doesn't like.//

Really, Bell doesn't say anything of wolves? Perhaps he should

[hubbs86]

dude, Bell doesn't say anything because he'd get his butt kicked.

second, bell has serious theological issues... read bells statement of his church and then driscolls...there's a night and day difference.

[AtlantiansAnAlteran]

@weightofglory Driscoll is responding to questions from his congregation. Get your facts straight, Rob Bell doesn't bother responding because he is under the impression that truth is relative anyway, so why bother? ;-)

[cfloate13]

@weightofglory well mr.weight of glory..driscoll clearly states that he is friends with all of these people (except Bell) and that is because a lot of the stuff Bell says is completely unbiblical

[moptopdrummer]

It's funny Mark Driscoll loves to knock other peoples opinions and theology, but from what I hear he considers himself a 5 point Calvinist. Which if anyone knows anything about the history of Calvinism. They're heretic and their theology is based on man made doctrines that are unbiblical In The 1500's they used their twisted doctrine to kill people who disagreed with their doctrine. Go look it up. It's undisputed.

[ishlael]

Just wondering what doctrines of Calvinism you think are man made in particular. And who did Calvinists kill in the 1500's (other than Servetus)? Calvinists were actually the ones getting killed most of the time (look up the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre).

[RobertHSengstacke]

@ishlael actually Calvin didnt have servetus crucified, the government of geneva did. Calvin wasnt a citizen of Geneva at the time servetus was execited. The truth f the matter is that servetus would have been executed whether or not Calvin testified against him. He was guilty of blashemy which was a crime punishable by death in many places in europe at that time

[eshgibor]

Mark Driscoll is not a 5 point Calvinist . . . he does not agree in the Limited Atonement part. Also, he does not believe in double predestination which is the common stand of Reformed Theology

[Palindrome700]

@eshgibor macarthur doesnt believe in double predestination either

[FigTreeInBloom]

North American Christians need to stop worrying about what divides them and start focusing on the glory of God; that is Jesus. Jesus, Jesus, Praise him in all ways possible.

[Icannottolerateit]

@FigTreeInBloom To say "Focus on the glory of God" there are different opinions of what that actually means, thus the conflict.

We need a lot more Evan Roberts running around.....

[cfloate13]

@FigTreeInBloom amen! but we do need to help people understand the other "belief" systems in order to make their faith stronger

[Piros1987]

Did anyone notice the T-Shirt Mark is wearing ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that an image of what people thinks Jesus looks like ?

3rd commandment anyone ? Is this "Great" pastor trying to say it is ok to wear or have Jesus image when God said " You shall not make for yourself any carved image that is in heaven above...."

Judge amongst yourself. Who do you rather follow the Bible or Mark Discroll.

[Toejamscruff]

3rd commandment? Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy?

The shirt is Jesus 'turning tables'. It is an artistic representation of the Gospel.

I get what you're saying though. However, I would challenge you to look at a cross and see the meaning behind the symbol.

I don't believe Driscoll worships his shirt or the image that is printed on it.

[Littlek51291]

Jesus was at one point in time fully God...and fully man. The typical image of Jesus is not portrayal of what he looks like as spirit, but as man. Therefore, we are not making graven images, because the image already once existed.

[xev1n777]

You completely misquoted and misunderstood Rob Bell's book Velvet Elvis...Not to sound offensive but, did you actually even read the book?

[carbin15]

Don't forget about divorce its a sin too.

[Jugheadr2]

I never knew that. I always thought it was what you did after the divorce (adultery) that was a sin.

[rodanosamehr]

Just curious is that a bit of advertising for Champion on his jacket there or just coincidental?

[IrvingISD91]

No, he just bought a jacket that's Champion and is wearing it.

[dawnsmi2]

Good Mark, I'm glad you've got it all figured out.

[999sasha]

Rob Bell is so much cooler then this bloated frat boy.

[OptimusJon]

My concern is that he might be replacing God with the Bible. You can't throw out the Commandment for the sake of the Law. If you're going to be particular about women leadership or homosexuality then you shouldn't eat lobster or pork, or allow women with short hair or pants into church, and never get a tattoo. Some of the Law was cultural.

[cfloate13]

@OptimusJon yes but the laws such as not eating pork and other unclean foods were thrown out when Jesus fulfilled Old Testament law..and homosexuality isnt particular because it is a sin and the bible states that men should be the leaders of the church

[tylerhamlet]

@cfloate13 many of my Gay friends try to throw out homosexuality as a sin with the rest of the many old testament laws. But that is truly a case of throwing the the baby out with the bath water!

[grandedrip]

it's no wonder christians get a bad rap...all we/they ever do is judge between what is acceptable or not (ortho-anything), right or wrong, good or evil....so busy excluding and filtering...when we could be using our energy doing what we were called to do, to love one another...is that really hard?

[norqvader]

If you watch the whole sermon this excerpt is from...Driscoll only devotes 20 minutes to this subject...then he shares the Gospel, which IS what we are commanded to do.

[grandedrip]

my point is that what the Good News tells us to do is to deal with the world in a radical way called agape (perfect love), sin by definition is "missing the mark" and that is what we tend to do as Christians too.......i just think there are bigger problems we need to address than "emerging" in the church: poverty, prejudice, greed, war/hate, etc, not in general sense but these are going on all over the world today including here in the US

[mandamk]

Yes, but remember 2 Tim 4:2-5.  It isn't good to sit around and criticize one another, but we also need to make sure that we are sharing the right gospel and loving truth. We love truth by protecting it and by making ourselves aware of teachings that go against Scripture, or that call into question the truth of Scripture.

[grandedrip]

my friends...quoting scripture in parts (verses) is being inconsistent with the proper use of scripture. verses were added much later, not by the original authors...read the entire passage (verses before and after) and let us not use scripture as a weapon but a map towards God and his amazing love......how could the gospel be "good news" when we use it for different reasons/purposes? i encourage you to read 1john the entire chapter 4 =)

[43408]

The thing with homosexuality is that its a sin just like killing or lying. In Gods eyes every sin is just as evil as the next. There all just as evil in his eyes. Its lust no matter how you look at it. "Hate the sin but love the sinner." So I can't understand how alot of Christians hate homosexuals. It pushes them away from Jesus.

[norqvader]

Nowhere does does the Bible say, "hate the sin, love the sinner". That is from Ghandi...NOT a Christian. There is no hope for anyone without Jesus.

[tylerhamlet]

@norqvader The words trinity and denomination are not in the bible as well but the Trinity is a concept that is affirmed though the word. In the same respect "Love the sinner hate the sin" is not farbateum in the bible as well. However it is a concept that is affirmed through Christ teaching.

[extremesoutherngal]

No we should NOT hate homosexuals. Hate toward anyone is not God's way. Because we are commanded to love others, as christians, we need to remember that God's word also commands us to "speak THE TRUTH in love." Love does not lie to make someone feel ok about their sin. Having homosexual feelings is NOT a sin, but the Bible is clear the sexual act outside of a male-female marriage relationship is SIN. Love tells the truth. Love the sinner, but tell the truth. Saving faith produces repentance.

[Hebrews927]

To say that having homosexual feelings is not a sin is wrong in itself. To have sexual feelings about ANYONE other then your spouse is called LUST. LUST IS a sin, recall where Christ said; (Mat 5:27-28) You have heard that it was said, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';

I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Whether it is lust for a man or woman it's adultery of the heart and breaking God's

7th commandment.

[gilesmhayward]

This mite be a misinterpretation, but doesn't the Bible say that homosexual acts are wrong, not being homosexual. I agree that lust is wrong whatever. I think that you can look at the same sex, think they are attractive and not lust, as with the opposite sex. Or maybe I am wrong...?

Also divorce is not a sin if the spouse is being maritally unfaithful (Matt 5:32, 19:9)

[tylerhamlet]

@43408 So very true. As a christian in the arts i am very upfront with my gay friends that yes they have free choose and I love them and it is because of that love I mention the big waterfall with all the pointy rocks that sits waiting at the end of that choice.

Jesus said that we are to love to prepare Gods way (the truth) Fill there life with the love of God to pave the way for personal conviction.

[SamuelinDetroit]

@43408 Yes & No. James 2 talks about breaking the law in one point breaks the whole law. So in a sense, It doesn't matter if you are homo/hetrosexual if you die in your sins you end up in hell.

Even then, those going to hell will be judged and punished in hell according to their works (See Rev 20).

There are several instances in scripture that talk about greater condemnation for sin: John 19:11, Luke 12:47-48, Matt 11:20-24, Heb. 10:29

Also, sexual sin is considered a sin against the body

[IndigoVagrant]

@SamuelinDetroit And what makes your King James Bible so damn accurate anyway? You know how many times it has been edited by governments? For Gods sake it says KING JAMES on it!! You are deluded, you worship Baphomet, and in your ranks are bigots, homophobes, killers, and consumers.  Materialistic SCUM. You arent going to hell, YOU ARE CREATING HELL

[SamuelinDetroit]

@IndigoVagrant I will love you enough to tell you the truth. You may choose to misunderstand, be offended or hear me: You have broken every one of God's laws. You have personally sinned against God himself. You are NOT a good person. The WRATH of God abides on you & God is ANGRY with you everyday. I am not condemning you cause you are condemned ALREADY. The wages of sin is death & you are on your way to HELL unless you make a U-turn. God resist the Proud but gives grace to the humble.

[IndigoVagrant]

@SamuelinDetroit What the hell are you talking about? Who gives you the right to know who goes to heaven and hell. Judge not lest ye be judged.

[SamuelinDetroit]

@IndigoVagrant Yes correct, hell is what I am talking about.

[SamuelinDetroit]

@IndigoVagrant What gives me the right to know? Everyone has the natural God given right to know. People decide for themselves. You can chose to know flee from the wrath to come or chose to not know and suffer on the day of wrath.

[SamuelinDetroit]

@IndigoVagrant I don't know where the King James comment is coming from but that isn't the issue. Sin is the issue. Repent and live.

[IndigoVagrant]

@SamuelinDetroit

The King James Bible distorts what sin is. If you first read the Torah, and understand the old testament from a Jewish or Islamic point of view, it quickly becomes obvious that modern Christians have lost their way, and have translated an imperial materialist belief into religion through the King James Bible, and the subsequent Protestant movement. Both are distortions of the Bible.

[norqvader]

This is a dead-on analysis. If you watch the entire sermon-for you emergents concerned with the narrative- you will find that he ultimately says that ALL that matters is Jesus...not the emerging/emergent movement. In time, the movement will fall off much like the prosperity movement of the 80's. Only Old people and 2nd generation "pastors" still proclaim it. That will be the case of the emergents. The Bible, and it's doctrine are timeless..."Heaven and earth will pass away, but my Word will not"

[Curtisquatch]

are you afraid of those who question, because deep down you question as well and have found answers that contradict what people have told you and you dont want to find your own answers?

[brendtwaters]

Quite the opposite -- I'd welcome *actual* discernment. It's just that your definition is off.

A discerning person wouldn't claim to know the hearts of 1000s of people; especially if he was basing that off of one sentence by one man.

[Icannottolerateit]

@brendtwaters Actually one sentence can indeed be enough....

[SoulSurvivorInChrist]

A Question To The Modern "Church" Movement: Are People Truely Being Encouraged To Worship Jesus Christ With Every Part Of Thier Being Or Are You Having Coffee Hour Every Week?

[PaulmanC]

No... lane #4, yes. But not all four lanes! :P

By the way, there's a difference between the emerging church and the emergent church. The latter is quite liberal in their theology, from what I know.

[billiefan2000]

all 4 lanes of the emergent church= 2 timothy 4:3-4

[drumladd]

What a baseless generalization.

[billiefan2000]

how so? I mean the emerging church's goal is to lead people astray

just ask brian mclaren who has said

sound doctrine is bigotry and not welcome in the church

[brendtwaters]

Cool. So you're able to divine the motives of others!

Must be neato to be God!

[billiefan2000]

so you are saying I shouldnt be using DISCERNMENT

alittleleaven DOT com

[brendtwaters]

Quite the opposite -- I'd welcome *actual* discernment. It's just that your definition is off.

A discerning person wouldn't claim to know the hearts of 1000s of people; especially if he was basing that off of one sentence by one man.

[hasani42]

Exactly, Brian McClaren is emergent, or what I like to call insurgent, Mark Driscoll is emerging, hes very sound biblically in his theology, and Ive never found cause to discredit him in any way.