you don't need to be a christian to commit a selfless act like that and what makes you think a christian wouldn't just run off and leave their friend behind they can just confess and everything would be ok in their eyes
first one made me lol XD but this i can debunk the point you don't need to be christian to sacrifice yourself im aithiest and if it were me and some stranger i would try to hold off the mountain lion that's a selfless act anyone can do that not christians specifically and how do you know a christian would defend their friend or some stranger people sin as you put it and the christian can just confess
mrk - I agree - you don't need to be a Christian to perform that selfless act... and I do not know if any Christian would actually sacrifice themselves - I just know we should be willing to do so...
winer - no - you aren't blocked - this particular video is acting up with the comments - asking for approval - and I can't seem to get it to accept comments freely like my other vids
Err...sorry to say this, cristoferL...but I really don't think there are all that many people you can outrun. I think you have something that's called *morbid obesity*...and the only cure for that is exercise and cutting down on the pizzas and cheeseburgers, hehe. : )
*morbid obesity* ? You need to get out more - lol - yeah - Im over weight - but its not to the point of morbid obesity - and in truth - I am working out and losing weight - give me another 6 months and Ill meet you on the track.. .
Ok, a lion, a zebra, and a monkey go into a bar. And they start drinking. The Lion drank about six drinks and said, Well time to go to work and leaves. The zebra and the monkey kept drinking. The zebra having twelve drinks passes out right on the bar. The monkey has one more drink and proceeds to walk out the door. The bartender shouts out, Hey, you cant leave this lying here and the monkey said in return, Dont be silly! Thats not a lion, its a zebra.
yeah nice for the christian to do that. Of course that story would sound so much better if it was the atheist that sacrificed her life to save a friend. Which i could do. Of course we go ignored by all because we dont do it to please a god, or get rewards in heaven, its simply to save a person.
Mountain lion is running at them and the Christian says "ok give me 10-20% of your annual income, give us your kid's minds to warp with our nonsense and become part of our cult for the rest of your life and maybe ill see what i can do about this lion".
Think id rather just get eaten by the lion thanks.
i would sacrifice myself for someone else to escape, i actually have in the past , 3 Times, one of those times was a life or death situation. Its not a CHRISTIAN thing for someone to do things like that , its a HUMAN thing !! Im proof !!
Tommy - You would be considered the exception though... and you'd probably fight and kill the lion anyways - lol - but in the end - where would you say you fall in the rat race of life - the me first society? Because that was truly what I envisioned by using the term 'world' - not atheists per say but society.
What you said in "the world" part really makes ya think, care to explain in a message?
But i like what you said in the "christian" part, about not being afraid of being put into danger, because Christ is protecting us. And if the mountain lion killed the christian, then he woulda went home, he aint afraid of dying and that woulda been a big encouragement to the other guy.
Marc - well, its been my experience that the 'world' is commonly a "me first" or "what's in it for me" environment... people tend to walk over each other to get ahead - it wasn't meant as an attack on any one - other than the system itself.
You do realise tha much of 'the world' is actually made up of religious people dont you? many of which are other christians, from moderates to evangelicals.
Kaspar - no - I did not mention atheism... I was speaking of the world in general )as in the rat race) vs. what a Christian should be willing to do if he truly believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yep Jesus died for everyone, but only those who "choose" Him will be saved.... doesn't really sound like that great of a love... sounds more like, be my friend or I'll fry you... but that's mainstream Christianity's interpretation.
Never did sound right to me personally, so I dug deeper.... and I encourage all believers to dig deeper, for the truth is not found in the mainstream church and it's seminary trained pastors.
The truth is in front our faces, but seen by very very few.
"seek and you shall find" is a great analogy. I think there are possibly more Christians who don't know what they found than their are Christians who think they found it and claim to know.
I often try to say, look at the words again, the deeper meaning is there, but most "believers" only eat the icing, and not the cake itself
If a on coming car is going to hit you and someone tries to push you out of the way , so that they end up being hit instead of you, but you refuse to budge and get hit, is that because of the person trying to save you or you refusal to all them to save you?
That depends... is the guy who pushes "me" out of the way all knowing and all-powerful like God is?
Could the guy have prevented the scenario from happening in the first place, because he knew what would happen in advance?
What I was alluding to in my first comment was this.... Most Christians tend to read everything Jesus said and personalize it, but in fact Jesus was talking to the OC Jews of His day... and this totally affects what was said.
What has that analogy got to do with anything discussed here?
Oh okay jesus is the Hero of mankind, the written movie star, the superman as opposed to all those other long forgotten Gods and unwritten human heroes who have done pretty much the same. Jesus, if what you say is true, is only special because he joins the line of a rare breed of brave individuals, nothing more
Erm pay attention, long time Christain who bought into the bull and was genuine about seeking the the truth to the point I made enemies in my church of pharasies. I don't buy into fairytales and I certainly don't buy into the claims thsat the bible is the perfect word of God
The bible wont save you , neither will a church, or a religion, we dont need any of these things to speak to God, he listens to our pleas if we place our trust in Jesus.
Based on what? Again when are you going to get it? You have nothing but a voice in your head at the end of the day to prove your point, if the bible means nothing. And believe me I've had that same voice.
Show me something substantial. Show me something concrete. Show me something that I cannot argue with logic and reason. Please that's all I ever as from any of you people and you never, EVER, deliver
Geez, I already gave you my reasons about the bible being unreliable. That you haven't actually read it properly or fully is not my problem. That you have a difficulty getting this fact through your head is apparently.
Wow you really are ignorant about the foundation for your own faith aren't you? And I know you'll dent this too.
Ashe - I know you discount the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - but God is greater than the book - and His presence proves His existence - making the questions concerning the book rather secondary.
His presence as you put proves nothing, only that you think think there is a presence.
Chris, let me ask you somethin, do it for me, do one video one video for me without using the bible or "peronal relationships" to help me get it please :)
"Show me something that I cannot argue with logic and reason."
You may ask for too much Ashe. There must always be an element of faith in any belief. People generally do not come to God through logic or by way of reason. I'm studying evangelism partially to try and figure out just what fuels conversion because I don't understand it. All I know is that there come a point when skepticism ceases to be helpful and productive. If I demanded concrete proof of Laras420's existence for example.
No it;s not asking for too much, largely because if the bible is full of the contradictions that have been pointed out so many times, as well as the lies and additions made too it by the authors of the New testament. alone, that's exactly what is needed. Your faith is dependant on what the words tell you apparanrlt and the Holy Spirit is meant to be your guide. It can't be an honest guide if it depends on what I have already pointed out to understand the word. A lie is a lie
I have yet to be convinced that any contradictions of merit exist in the bible. Every last one I have encountered is the result of prooftexting and bad literary analyisis. Again, if you want an argument that proves beyond all doubt that christianity is the truth you ask too much. Not even science makes such demands upon itself.
The truth is Ashe that the intellect is ruled by the will and it is all to easy to rationalize and argue against anything under the sun. I don't think what you need is logic or reason here. No, It would involve a change of heart, of will, and a renewal of your mind would follow that. We can only point to the best sources we have, and pray for you but other than that the rest is between you and God. Everyone I've talked to says that the Holy Spirit is what does it, not argument or logic.
Um...You have a misconception about Atheists. You're description of Christians fits most (if not all) Atheists. Plus I would have a gun (most likely a 12 gauge shotgun) with me because it is the wilderness.
Agreed, the Christian's sacrifice is no greater than a man who does the same an is not a Christian. Chris's analogy, whilst noble, is arrogant to say the least.
It's not arrogant in the least. He is expounding on the right course of action for the Christian. He laid no judgement of any sort on the man who ran away.
I think it is arrogant. Whilst it's a noble lesson for Christianity no doubt, the same analogy lies in the Buddhist faith, even some elements of Paganism and Islam.
The lesson is universal, not limited to Christian nobility or courage. A good atheist who does the same is no worse than the Christian, but who goes to Hell? Who risks Hell more?
I think the courage is greater in the man who faces the unknown rather than a reward in heaven.
He's not adressing Buddhists, Pagans or Muslims. He's addressing Christians. There is no arrogance involved in the least. The lesson is not limited to Christians, nut people who aren't Christians aren't inclined to come to a Christian page and learn the lesson. They're far more likely to call him arrogant and start an argument to detract from his lesson.
Look I understand the message, but the original context of the joke when it was first told was not an analogy of how Christians act, but how Theist do not. This joke was told over and over again in Churches I attended when I was a kid, and the message was loud and clear.
Atheists, Christians died for their beliefs. Why would they die for a lie? It's not a new joke
I think the video would have been better if Chris had retold the joke from how it should be relevant, not repeated word for word.
This joke is terribly old, insisting that it came from Christians for a sinister reason is an archtype of an even older joke. I won't help you detract from the message any longer. God bless.
I dunno - honestly - I don't recall - but to me - this is just a great way to inspire conversation... I am just surprised at how it took off - I expected Christians to dispute the sacrificial role I assigned to us...
Ashe - its my view of what a Christian should do - thats all - and the world would be anyone not a Christian - not just atheist - though when boiled down - it would be good of anyone to do...
Christopher really where do you get this stuff. Is it a joke or a way in your mind to define Christians and Nonbelievers? The
reason the christian would say that is that it isn't a selfless act as oppossed to wha tyou think is a selfish act in the other scenario. It is because the christian believes in an afterlife and is willing to throw his life away in hope of the eternal reward. But the reality is he will get chewed up have to have a piss bag become bitter and die. yeah jesus!
But, you see, Nanee... the larger point here is that Jesus died for those who loved him and those who hated him.
He died for you. He died for me. He died for our worst enemies.
So, Jesus took the issue presented in this video even further.
Folks called him delusional. Blasphemous. Demonic. They spat at him. They reviled him. They beat him. They crucified him. Yet, still, he died FOR them.
Christopher. So is this the litmus test to see if your a christian. If you decide to give up your life your a christian but if you want to save your life you are a selfish non believer or not a real christian. This is a silly analogy. You of course are referring to the verse of laying down your life for your brother. Yet if god were true he could distract the bear and you both could live. What kind of god wants to "test" to see who is true or not but getting killed by a bear.
A test of faith for a God who knows everything without a doubt would be pointless, so in effect if God was testing the faith of his followers, it would prove doubt.
Lets not forget the test of Abraham and Issac. The only lesson Ii got from that was, God doesn't know everthing
God knows all that is knowable. The question then is "what may be known?".
Also the scriptures leave Y'shua' omniscience a mystery. It would seem that during the incarnation at least, he didn't know everything. When Yeshua Ha-Mashiach came, God experienced temptation, doubts, pain, fear, grief, and everything else.
Its about love, who hasnt at one time wanted the love of a man who would be faithful and loyal and would literally lay his life down for you, ie a car is coming ,he pushes you out of the way so you lived and took the full force. If it was a movie the girls be all saying ohhhhhhhhh i want a man like that!. That type of love i believe is almost impossible to find in man but Jesus, well he already did that for us, he literally went down on that cross because he loves us that much. Thats love...
and what do you think God expects in return? He gave us free will to choose what we want to do, he just gave us a chance to live beyond what we imagine is life. he didnt make us to die, we did that, he still doesnt want to lose us, we choose to walk away.. At the end of the day we all face God and if we refuse to listen while there is still breath in our body then we take our chances
LOL im sure you are, thats the difference between knowing God or knowing of God, I trust God, he doenst expect me to know everything, just trust in him.
Dear God Alighty (and don't say I believe in God because I am exasperated, I say Gordon Bennet a lot too, that doesnt mean I believe in Gordon's divinity)
Is that all you have? A voice? A Gut feeling? A hope?
If God was serious about saving lives he would have come up with a more reliable source than anything you've so far come up with
You speak words of great wisdom of God and Ashels is just to ignorant to listen. All that is going to happen is Ashels will try to make you angry and look like a big fool in the end.
But Ashels, if you want to debate religion I suggest you find shockofgod and go to his radio show on Sunday. If you want a chance to try to debate religion that is the perfect place to do it where believes and non believes discuss it live.
Oh for goodness sake, he showed ntohing but wishful thinking and falcay
I have larwady debated shockofgod, and all I got was "the bible tells me" or "I have a relationship with God"
believe me notning different from anythign an muslim of equal delusion hasn't already told me. I don't want to debate releion, I want to stop this stupid idea that you have any right to tell me that my life is evil and sinful and "America shoudl repent"
when that stops I stop debating your faith, get it?
if you actually pay attention to shock you will see that he has some very good points.
The idea of atheism being evil is that in a Christians point of view it is not really you who is evil but you fell for a religion that was made by the evil satin.
When they say repent they simpily mean apoligise to god for falling for satin. Now this may seem offensive but really it isn't, it's hard to explain but it isn't meant to insult people who are atheist.
Also though if you truly do believe what you say I think it is your best shot to try to prove it on shocks show. That is where many Christians go to listen and where many will base their opinions on. If you want to convince christians of what you say the radio show is your best bet.
I'm sure he does make good points that the choir buys into
And if Shock where to inviteme for a personal debate on his radio show, I'd be more than happy to take it up. My point is not to diswade you from your belief but to explain to you why you and people like Shock for all their words, cannot persuade me with arguments like "literal" "Allegory" "Relationship" "personal" or "interpretation". It saddens me that you simply don't get it. (pto)
But as I already said, shock thus far has said nothing to me personally except everything I have already debunked
As for your explanation on "evil" once again you paint the image of what your belief as every other religion, for that's what you are, is based upon. The belief that mankind is a dirty, undeserving lowly creature. You claim not to be a religion, but everything about you said proves otherwise
"I have larwady debated shockofgod, and all I got was "the bible tells me" or "I have a relationship with God""
Funny that you would say that because last I know having a RELATIONSHIP with someone (even God) requires that person to exist. Also, ShockofGod was once an atheist by his own admission so he knows where you are coming from.
Of course you will deny that he was ever an atheist because that would necessitate that he may be speaking the truth. (Cont)
(Cont) Funny how you require witnesses of Jesus's activity in the Garden of Gethsemene but you will require no witnesses to whether ShockofGod was an atheist or not.
The bigger question, Ashe, is what Christian would go to hell for their enemies?
Even unbelievers may sacrifice themselves for their friends and family...
The answer is: not many.
But, Jesus died for those who loved him and those who hated him... even if you think he had a screw loose (i.e., if you aren't a Christian), it is amazing what he did, isn't it?
If you buy into it, which I don't, so no. It difficult to buy into contradictory scripture, misconstrued prophecy, and simply made up addtions to the Tora and believe that Jesus was the man you claim him to be.
And considering I would gladly lay down my life for everyone on this planet, even go to eternal torment for a second chance, it's not all that impressive, and their are none believers braver than I am on this world
Ashe I think the bigger issue there is the actual possibility of such a sacrifice. The Tanakh is quite clear about Sheol and how there is a gulf between the side for the righteous and the side for the wicked. I find no reason to believe that anyone unless they are sinless may atone for a sinner in this way. In all probability any such attempt on either your or my part would wind up in damnation for both us and he who we tried to save.
I disagree again. A God who dies and can rise again is not an act of courage, especially for things he has set in motion from the dawn of time. A man who truly understands what it means to die for good and suffer, now there in lies the courage and the sacrifice
I never said that mashiach's death and resurrection was courageous, nor did I say that mashiach alone could make that sacrifice (I may believe such things but thats for another discussion). I merely wished to point out that any attempt on the part of a sinner to atone for the sins of another will result in both facing eternal damnation. It will not have the desired result.
Since we are on the subject, Y'shua was human and I am sure he suffered, and faced death wrestling with fear and doubt.
yet he said "I AM" and new the outcome. Human he may have been, but he knew who he was according to scripture, and as for the dout thing, no one went with him into the Garden when he prayed, so we have no witness to back that claim either
yes, I do not deny the mystery inherent in orthodox christology that christ was both 100% man and 100% God, but there is an inhereant complexity in it all. He was well aware of who he was, but he did not know everything. Remember Matthew 24:36? He didnt know when the world would end. About doubt, I was thinking also of how he cried out on the cross "Eloi Eloi Lamach Sabachtani"
You wouldn't believe any witnesses testimony anyhow, Ashels.
I know this because there are 4 gospels plus an entire New Testament (plus some outside sources) which claim to have seen the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you reject them.
The entire point of Jesus dieing on the cross was to take the wrath instead of you and I, he rose because God was satisfied with the sacrfice, Jesus took the punishment. If we dont accept the sacrifice ie Jesus then the payment is never paid. Well until you die anyway, then you end up paying for it..
But that's if you buy into the hype and the outright deception, most notably in the book of Matthew and later the Letters of Paul and the Apostles. Like I said I do not, I have read the bible back to front, and even I know where things were taken out of context or not even mentioned at all in the old testament as claimed in the New.
And at the end of the day, I didn't ask him to even if it's true, the attitude of God hasn't.... (pto)
it shows nothing but the hype put into this man already. We only have an imperfect book to back it up and as I said before, that's not useful evidence to back up your claim.
There is little he can say that will change my mind that your God is a vengeful, amnesiac, petty and well none existent God, the best have tried and failed, I fail to see what a youtuber can achieve or say different. Honied words are bitter
you don't need to be a christian to commit a selfless act like that and what makes you think a christian wouldn't just run off and leave their friend behind they can just confess and everything would be ok in their eyes
mrkrabbz44 2 years ago
A Christian could do all of that - you're right - but that wasn't my point - :)
christoferL 2 years ago
first one made me lol XD but this i can debunk the point you don't need to be christian to sacrifice yourself im aithiest and if it were me and some stranger i would try to hold off the mountain lion that's a selfless act anyone can do that not christians specifically and how do you know a christian would defend their friend or some stranger people sin as you put it and the christian can just confess
mrkrabbz44 2 years ago
mrk - I agree - you don't need to be a Christian to perform that selfless act... and I do not know if any Christian would actually sacrifice themselves - I just know we should be willing to do so...
christoferL 2 years ago
Fiv'd & Fav'd bro!
TheEdge012 2 years ago
or you could watch obijimkenobi's video and realize that the whole story is insane
Leadman1989 2 years ago
Hey, am I blocked here or something? Naah...?
winterstellar 2 years ago
winer - no - you aren't blocked - this particular video is acting up with the comments - asking for approval - and I can't seem to get it to accept comments freely like my other vids
christoferL 2 years ago
Hahaha
johnatspray 2 years ago
Err...sorry to say this, cristoferL...but I really don't think there are all that many people you can outrun. I think you have something that's called *morbid obesity*...and the only cure for that is exercise and cutting down on the pizzas and cheeseburgers, hehe. : )
winterstellar 2 years ago
*morbid obesity* ? You need to get out more - lol - yeah - Im over weight - but its not to the point of morbid obesity - and in truth - I am working out and losing weight - give me another 6 months and Ill meet you on the track.. .
christoferL 2 years ago
Just makes the point that religious people are nuts.
Pigdowndog 2 years ago
Yeah - religion itself is insane.
christoferL 2 years ago
I happen to enjoy the video and thought the comments were quite interesting to say the least! GBU!
DianaMarie777 2 years ago
Um, what Christian will stay behind and fight off a lion?
theheat151 2 years ago
ChrisL, you replied "heat - the one who is not afraid to doe for another - confident in his faith in Christ?"
What if the lion kills you and then kills the ones you were trying to save anyways? That tactic doesn't look so smart now, does it?
theheat151 2 years ago
Heat - the lion won't go after a victim running if its busy eating...
christoferL 2 years ago
Now, what if it is a pack(?) of lions?
theheat151 2 years ago
Time to start witnessing fast?
christoferL 2 years ago
Ok, a lion, a zebra, and a monkey go into a bar. And they start drinking. The Lion drank about six drinks and said, Well time to go to work and leaves. The zebra and the monkey kept drinking. The zebra having twelve drinks passes out right on the bar. The monkey has one more drink and proceeds to walk out the door. The bartender shouts out, Hey, you cant leave this lying here and the monkey said in return, Dont be silly! Thats not a lion, its a zebra.
redstinkysock 2 years ago
lol
christoferL 2 years ago
yeah nice for the christian to do that. Of course that story would sound so much better if it was the atheist that sacrificed her life to save a friend. Which i could do. Of course we go ignored by all because we dont do it to please a god, or get rewards in heaven, its simply to save a person.
Put that in yer pip and smoke it. lol
peace buddy
cjunk351 2 years ago
cjunk - you bring up an interesting point - which has inspired my next vid - thanks!
christoferL 2 years ago
cool . I have never inspired a video before. :) well there was this one guy, but anyway.
peace
cjunk351 2 years ago
Mountain lion is running at them and the Christian says "ok give me 10-20% of your annual income, give us your kid's minds to warp with our nonsense and become part of our cult for the rest of your life and maybe ill see what i can do about this lion".
Think id rather just get eaten by the lion thanks.
Atheistprimate 2 years ago
Atheistprimate - I like my version of the account better - by the time anyone could say all that you added - both wouldve been eaten...
christoferL 2 years ago
i would sacrifice myself for someone else to escape, i actually have in the past , 3 Times, one of those times was a life or death situation. Its not a CHRISTIAN thing for someone to do things like that , its a HUMAN thing !! Im proof !!
TOMMYfromtheBRONX 2 years ago
Tommy - You would be considered the exception though... and you'd probably fight and kill the lion anyways - lol - but in the end - where would you say you fall in the rat race of life - the me first society? Because that was truly what I envisioned by using the term 'world' - not atheists per say but society.
christoferL 2 years ago
What you said in "the world" part really makes ya think, care to explain in a message?
But i like what you said in the "christian" part, about not being afraid of being put into danger, because Christ is protecting us. And if the mountain lion killed the christian, then he woulda went home, he aint afraid of dying and that woulda been a big encouragement to the other guy.
xIMPERIALx 2 years ago
Marc - well, its been my experience that the 'world' is commonly a "me first" or "what's in it for me" environment... people tend to walk over each other to get ahead - it wasn't meant as an attack on any one - other than the system itself.
christoferL 2 years ago
You do realise tha much of 'the world' is actually made up of religious people dont you? many of which are other christians, from moderates to evangelicals.
cjunk351 2 years ago
cjunk - yes - there are many who claim Christ who are of the world - which is why I pointed out this wasn't intended as a slam on atheists.
christoferL 2 years ago
ahhh so you are saying that in all the world's battlefield's there has never been an atheist soldier who laid down his life for his mates?
There has never been a buddhist monk that set himself on fire as a public suicide protest for world peace and to stop a war in Vietnam?
None of this has happened then? Only christians do these things and all the reports we have of non christians doing these things are all lies?
KasparHauser4 2 years ago
Kaspar - no - I did not mention atheism... I was speaking of the world in general )as in the rat race) vs. what a Christian should be willing to do if he truly believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
christoferL 2 years ago
Very cool Chris
gdy80 2 years ago
Yep Jesus died for everyone, but only those who "choose" Him will be saved.... doesn't really sound like that great of a love... sounds more like, be my friend or I'll fry you... but that's mainstream Christianity's interpretation.
Never did sound right to me personally, so I dug deeper.... and I encourage all believers to dig deeper, for the truth is not found in the mainstream church and it's seminary trained pastors.
The truth is in front our faces, but seen by very very few.
ChristianNewsWatch 2 years ago
"seek and you shall find" is a great analogy. I think there are possibly more Christians who don't know what they found than their are Christians who think they found it and claim to know.
I often try to say, look at the words again, the deeper meaning is there, but most "believers" only eat the icing, and not the cake itself
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
If a on coming car is going to hit you and someone tries to push you out of the way , so that they end up being hit instead of you, but you refuse to budge and get hit, is that because of the person trying to save you or you refusal to all them to save you?
Laras420 2 years ago
Laras - RE the car analogy...
That depends... is the guy who pushes "me" out of the way all knowing and all-powerful like God is?
Could the guy have prevented the scenario from happening in the first place, because he knew what would happen in advance?
What I was alluding to in my first comment was this.... Most Christians tend to read everything Jesus said and personalize it, but in fact Jesus was talking to the OC Jews of His day... and this totally affects what was said.
Matthew 15:24
ChristianNewsWatch 2 years ago
What has that analogy got to do with anything discussed here?
Oh okay jesus is the Hero of mankind, the written movie star, the superman as opposed to all those other long forgotten Gods and unwritten human heroes who have done pretty much the same. Jesus, if what you say is true, is only special because he joins the line of a rare breed of brave individuals, nothing more
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Well you only have to ask God for yourself. If you really want to know he will respond.
Laras420 2 years ago
Erm pay attention, long time Christain who bought into the bull and was genuine about seeking the the truth to the point I made enemies in my church of pharasies. I don't buy into fairytales and I certainly don't buy into the claims thsat the bible is the perfect word of God
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
The bible wont save you , neither will a church, or a religion, we dont need any of these things to speak to God, he listens to our pleas if we place our trust in Jesus.
Laras420 2 years ago
Based on what? Again when are you going to get it? You have nothing but a voice in your head at the end of the day to prove your point, if the bible means nothing. And believe me I've had that same voice.
Show me something substantial. Show me something concrete. Show me something that I cannot argue with logic and reason. Please that's all I ever as from any of you people and you never, EVER, deliver
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
you say you know the bible but you ask for evidence? You wont have the luxury of doubting Thomas
Laras420 2 years ago
Geez, I already gave you my reasons about the bible being unreliable. That you haven't actually read it properly or fully is not my problem. That you have a difficulty getting this fact through your head is apparently.
Wow you really are ignorant about the foundation for your own faith aren't you? And I know you'll dent this too.
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
lol i dont debate theology but i do share the Good news :-)
Laras420 2 years ago
Then you have nothing
You share a lie
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
if that eases yur mind there is little anyone can say to show you the truth
Laras420 2 years ago
Becasue you have notning but a book of lies, that you havnt even bother to read or study.
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Ashe - I know you discount the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - but God is greater than the book - and His presence proves His existence - making the questions concerning the book rather secondary.
christoferL 2 years ago
His presence as you put proves nothing, only that you think think there is a presence.
Chris, let me ask you somethin, do it for me, do one video one video for me without using the bible or "peronal relationships" to help me get it please :)
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Ill see what I can do for you Ashe
christoferL 2 years ago
Thank you
I am really looking, my interest in genuine, but so far nothing adds up even on a theological point of view.
And I understand the need to drop all common logic and understanding, even science has to with the bee being able to fly
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
"Show me something that I cannot argue with logic and reason."
You may ask for too much Ashe. There must always be an element of faith in any belief. People generally do not come to God through logic or by way of reason. I'm studying evangelism partially to try and figure out just what fuels conversion because I don't understand it. All I know is that there come a point when skepticism ceases to be helpful and productive. If I demanded concrete proof of Laras420's existence for example.
joness105639 2 years ago
No it;s not asking for too much, largely because if the bible is full of the contradictions that have been pointed out so many times, as well as the lies and additions made too it by the authors of the New testament. alone, that's exactly what is needed. Your faith is dependant on what the words tell you apparanrlt and the Holy Spirit is meant to be your guide. It can't be an honest guide if it depends on what I have already pointed out to understand the word. A lie is a lie
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
I have yet to be convinced that any contradictions of merit exist in the bible. Every last one I have encountered is the result of prooftexting and bad literary analyisis. Again, if you want an argument that proves beyond all doubt that christianity is the truth you ask too much. Not even science makes such demands upon itself.
joness105639 2 years ago
Didnt I already cover this already?
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
The truth is Ashe that the intellect is ruled by the will and it is all to easy to rationalize and argue against anything under the sun. I don't think what you need is logic or reason here. No, It would involve a change of heart, of will, and a renewal of your mind would follow that. We can only point to the best sources we have, and pray for you but other than that the rest is between you and God. Everyone I've talked to says that the Holy Spirit is what does it, not argument or logic.
joness105639 2 years ago
Jones, thats not an explanation, thats a cop out
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Its not a cop out if its the truth.
joness105639 2 years ago
the world vs christianity? isn't that like a washing machine vs a pair of socks?
emuholic 2 years ago
hmmm - two against one huh?
christoferL 2 years ago
Um...You have a misconception about Atheists. You're description of Christians fits most (if not all) Atheists. Plus I would have a gun (most likely a 12 gauge shotgun) with me because it is the wilderness.
FraggedMind 2 years ago
Fragged - who said anything about atheists?
christoferL 2 years ago
Your Title "The World" also includes Atheists.
FraggedMind 2 years ago
includes anyone not following Jesus...
christoferL 2 years ago
I am not even going to touch on that subject...
FraggedMind 2 years ago
As should be the response of any true friend. "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
thehistorysage 2 years ago
Agreed, the Christian's sacrifice is no greater than a man who does the same an is not a Christian. Chris's analogy, whilst noble, is arrogant to say the least.
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
It's not arrogant in the least. He is expounding on the right course of action for the Christian. He laid no judgement of any sort on the man who ran away.
thehistorysage 2 years ago
I think it is arrogant. Whilst it's a noble lesson for Christianity no doubt, the same analogy lies in the Buddhist faith, even some elements of Paganism and Islam.
The lesson is universal, not limited to Christian nobility or courage. A good atheist who does the same is no worse than the Christian, but who goes to Hell? Who risks Hell more?
I think the courage is greater in the man who faces the unknown rather than a reward in heaven.
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
He's not adressing Buddhists, Pagans or Muslims. He's addressing Christians. There is no arrogance involved in the least. The lesson is not limited to Christians, nut people who aren't Christians aren't inclined to come to a Christian page and learn the lesson. They're far more likely to call him arrogant and start an argument to detract from his lesson.
thehistorysage 2 years ago
Look I understand the message, but the original context of the joke when it was first told was not an analogy of how Christians act, but how Theist do not. This joke was told over and over again in Churches I attended when I was a kid, and the message was loud and clear.
Atheists, Christians died for their beliefs. Why would they die for a lie? It's not a new joke
I think the video would have been better if Chris had retold the joke from how it should be relevant, not repeated word for word.
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
This joke is terribly old, insisting that it came from Christians for a sinister reason is an archtype of an even older joke. I won't help you detract from the message any longer. God bless.
thehistorysage 2 years ago
Whether you like it or not, it's the truth
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
lol - if you think this is arrogant - wait to you see the ones I have planned...
christoferL 2 years ago
Chris, what did I tell you about context?
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
I dunno - honestly - I don't recall - but to me - this is just a great way to inspire conversation... I am just surprised at how it took off - I expected Christians to dispute the sacrificial role I assigned to us...
christoferL 2 years ago
Chris it's very noble in that respect, believe me I appluad you for it
But really it's a lesson for all of us :)
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Ashe - its my view of what a Christian should do - thats all - and the world would be anyone not a Christian - not just atheist - though when boiled down - it would be good of anyone to do...
christoferL 2 years ago
.... And the atheist say ... "I don't believe you".
Danmill23 2 years ago
Christopher really where do you get this stuff. Is it a joke or a way in your mind to define Christians and Nonbelievers? The
reason the christian would say that is that it isn't a selfless act as oppossed to wha tyou think is a selfish act in the other scenario. It is because the christian believes in an afterlife and is willing to throw his life away in hope of the eternal reward. But the reality is he will get chewed up have to have a piss bag become bitter and die. yeah jesus!
Nanee715 2 years ago
But, you see, Nanee... the larger point here is that Jesus died for those who loved him and those who hated him.
He died for you. He died for me. He died for our worst enemies.
So, Jesus took the issue presented in this video even further.
Folks called him delusional. Blasphemous. Demonic. They spat at him. They reviled him. They beat him. They crucified him. Yet, still, he died FOR them.
Praise God.
LiftAloft 2 years ago
I already answered this point LiftAloft
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Not adequately. Please explain the "deception" you are talking about in your post above.
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
Nanee - Jesus said the path is narrow - so there aren't nearly as many Christians as we think there are...
christoferL 2 years ago
(see the side bar - how Christians SHOULD be) :)
christoferL 2 years ago
Christopher. So is this the litmus test to see if your a christian. If you decide to give up your life your a christian but if you want to save your life you are a selfish non believer or not a real christian. This is a silly analogy. You of course are referring to the verse of laying down your life for your brother. Yet if god were true he could distract the bear and you both could live. What kind of god wants to "test" to see who is true or not but getting killed by a bear.
Nanee715 2 years ago
A test of faith for a God who knows everything without a doubt would be pointless, so in effect if God was testing the faith of his followers, it would prove doubt.
Lets not forget the test of Abraham and Issac. The only lesson Ii got from that was, God doesn't know everthing
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
God knows all that is knowable. The question then is "what may be known?".
Also the scriptures leave Y'shua' omniscience a mystery. It would seem that during the incarnation at least, he didn't know everything. When Yeshua Ha-Mashiach came, God experienced temptation, doubts, pain, fear, grief, and everything else.
joness105639 2 years ago
And yet we only have his word for all that is great in his deeds, and even thats dubious at best
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Its about love, who hasnt at one time wanted the love of a man who would be faithful and loyal and would literally lay his life down for you, ie a car is coming ,he pushes you out of the way so you lived and took the full force. If it was a movie the girls be all saying ohhhhhhhhh i want a man like that!. That type of love i believe is almost impossible to find in man but Jesus, well he already did that for us, he literally went down on that cross because he loves us that much. Thats love...
Laras420 2 years ago
Love being
"I did something for you, and I expect somethign in return"
Funny how most of the best sacrifices in the world demand very little in return in contrast to what you just said
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
and what do you think God expects in return? He gave us free will to choose what we want to do, he just gave us a chance to live beyond what we imagine is life. he didnt make us to die, we did that, he still doesnt want to lose us, we choose to walk away.. At the end of the day we all face God and if we refuse to listen while there is still breath in our body then we take our chances
Laras420 2 years ago
Oh dear oh dear, the freewill fallacy again? Do I really need to go into this again? don't tempt me, I'm better at this than you are
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
LOL im sure you are, thats the difference between knowing God or knowing of God, I trust God, he doenst expect me to know everything, just trust in him.
Laras420 2 years ago
Dear God Alighty (and don't say I believe in God because I am exasperated, I say Gordon Bennet a lot too, that doesnt mean I believe in Gordon's divinity)
Is that all you have? A voice? A Gut feeling? A hope?
If God was serious about saving lives he would have come up with a more reliable source than anything you've so far come up with
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Laras, I suggest you forget it.
You speak words of great wisdom of God and Ashels is just to ignorant to listen. All that is going to happen is Ashels will try to make you angry and look like a big fool in the end.
But Ashels, if you want to debate religion I suggest you find shockofgod and go to his radio show on Sunday. If you want a chance to try to debate religion that is the perfect place to do it where believes and non believes discuss it live.
TheChristianCanadian 2 years ago
Oh for goodness sake, he showed ntohing but wishful thinking and falcay
I have larwady debated shockofgod, and all I got was "the bible tells me" or "I have a relationship with God"
believe me notning different from anythign an muslim of equal delusion hasn't already told me. I don't want to debate releion, I want to stop this stupid idea that you have any right to tell me that my life is evil and sinful and "America shoudl repent"
when that stops I stop debating your faith, get it?
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
if you actually pay attention to shock you will see that he has some very good points.
The idea of atheism being evil is that in a Christians point of view it is not really you who is evil but you fell for a religion that was made by the evil satin.
When they say repent they simpily mean apoligise to god for falling for satin. Now this may seem offensive but really it isn't, it's hard to explain but it isn't meant to insult people who are atheist.
TheChristianCanadian 2 years ago
Also though if you truly do believe what you say I think it is your best shot to try to prove it on shocks show. That is where many Christians go to listen and where many will base their opinions on. If you want to convince christians of what you say the radio show is your best bet.
TheChristianCanadian 2 years ago
I'm sure he does make good points that the choir buys into
And if Shock where to inviteme for a personal debate on his radio show, I'd be more than happy to take it up. My point is not to diswade you from your belief but to explain to you why you and people like Shock for all their words, cannot persuade me with arguments like "literal" "Allegory" "Relationship" "personal" or "interpretation". It saddens me that you simply don't get it. (pto)
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
But as I already said, shock thus far has said nothing to me personally except everything I have already debunked
As for your explanation on "evil" once again you paint the image of what your belief as every other religion, for that's what you are, is based upon. The belief that mankind is a dirty, undeserving lowly creature. You claim not to be a religion, but everything about you said proves otherwise
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
"I have larwady debated shockofgod, and all I got was "the bible tells me" or "I have a relationship with God""
Funny that you would say that because last I know having a RELATIONSHIP with someone (even God) requires that person to exist. Also, ShockofGod was once an atheist by his own admission so he knows where you are coming from.
Of course you will deny that he was ever an atheist because that would necessitate that he may be speaking the truth. (Cont)
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
(Cont) Funny how you require witnesses of Jesus's activity in the Garden of Gethsemene but you will require no witnesses to whether ShockofGod was an atheist or not.
Can you not see the flaw in your logic here?
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
I never asked if he was an atheist or not, did he ask if I was a Christian?
funny how it's immaterial to the debate really
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
your right, i only came to share the Good news lol, not to debate, and yes shock is a good choice of referral if they are up for a debate lol
Laras420 2 years ago
Are you going to go on the radio show? I will.
Also this part is for christoferL.
I don't mean to be advertising the radio show on here, it was just a suggestion incase Ashels was serious about trying to prove what he is saying.
TheChristianCanadian 2 years ago
How is pointing out where Matthew made up scripture, trying to make him angry? If truth makes people angry then you have a problem with truth
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
What is so demanding about accepting the death of christ as atonement for the sins of the world?
joness105639 2 years ago
The facts for a start
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
nanee - its an opinion... and a hypothetical situation - and I think you're thinking too much about it - personally.
christoferL 2 years ago
Funny though, considering the health care issue and the going to Hell issue. I find that analogy from most Christians very hard to swallow.
How many Christians would go to hell in their friends place?
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
The bigger question, Ashe, is what Christian would go to hell for their enemies?
Even unbelievers may sacrifice themselves for their friends and family...
The answer is: not many.
But, Jesus died for those who loved him and those who hated him... even if you think he had a screw loose (i.e., if you aren't a Christian), it is amazing what he did, isn't it?
Hallelujah!
LiftAloft 2 years ago
If you buy into it, which I don't, so no. It difficult to buy into contradictory scripture, misconstrued prophecy, and simply made up addtions to the Tora and believe that Jesus was the man you claim him to be.
And considering I would gladly lay down my life for everyone on this planet, even go to eternal torment for a second chance, it's not all that impressive, and their are none believers braver than I am on this world
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Ashe I think the bigger issue there is the actual possibility of such a sacrifice. The Tanakh is quite clear about Sheol and how there is a gulf between the side for the righteous and the side for the wicked. I find no reason to believe that anyone unless they are sinless may atone for a sinner in this way. In all probability any such attempt on either your or my part would wind up in damnation for both us and he who we tried to save.
joness105639 2 years ago
I disagree again. A God who dies and can rise again is not an act of courage, especially for things he has set in motion from the dawn of time. A man who truly understands what it means to die for good and suffer, now there in lies the courage and the sacrifice
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
I never said that mashiach's death and resurrection was courageous, nor did I say that mashiach alone could make that sacrifice (I may believe such things but thats for another discussion). I merely wished to point out that any attempt on the part of a sinner to atone for the sins of another will result in both facing eternal damnation. It will not have the desired result.
Since we are on the subject, Y'shua was human and I am sure he suffered, and faced death wrestling with fear and doubt.
joness105639 2 years ago
yet he said "I AM" and new the outcome. Human he may have been, but he knew who he was according to scripture, and as for the dout thing, no one went with him into the Garden when he prayed, so we have no witness to back that claim either
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
yes, I do not deny the mystery inherent in orthodox christology that christ was both 100% man and 100% God, but there is an inhereant complexity in it all. He was well aware of who he was, but he did not know everything. Remember Matthew 24:36? He didnt know when the world would end. About doubt, I was thinking also of how he cried out on the cross "Eloi Eloi Lamach Sabachtani"
joness105639 2 years ago
You wouldn't believe any witnesses testimony anyhow, Ashels.
I know this because there are 4 gospels plus an entire New Testament (plus some outside sources) which claim to have seen the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you reject them.
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
The entire point of Jesus dieing on the cross was to take the wrath instead of you and I, he rose because God was satisfied with the sacrfice, Jesus took the punishment. If we dont accept the sacrifice ie Jesus then the payment is never paid. Well until you die anyway, then you end up paying for it..
Laras420 2 years ago
But that's if you buy into the hype and the outright deception, most notably in the book of Matthew and later the Letters of Paul and the Apostles. Like I said I do not, I have read the bible back to front, and even I know where things were taken out of context or not even mentioned at all in the old testament as claimed in the New.
And at the end of the day, I didn't ask him to even if it's true, the attitude of God hasn't.... (pto)
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
No you didnt ask him too, thats just shows the purity of his love for us, he would do it without us asking him too.
Laras420 2 years ago
I already answered this point
it shows nothing but the hype put into this man already. We only have an imperfect book to back it up and as I said before, that's not useful evidence to back up your claim.
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
changed much from his wrathful beginnings, and I don't follow tyrants, not even Gods
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
This one would.
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
I already told you I've dealt with him
There is little he can say that will change my mind that your God is a vengeful, amnesiac, petty and well none existent God, the best have tried and failed, I fail to see what a youtuber can achieve or say different. Honied words are bitter
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Then why on earth do you bother?
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
Because it's right
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
Or maybe I should say
It's not wrong to seek knowledge and question things. The only way to find truth is to anyalise it up close and personal
AsheIsTheRaven 2 years ago
I'll ourtrun you, had me laghing my face off:)
jarbon5 2 years ago
Jarbon - lol - I'll bet you could...
christoferL 2 years ago