@IWANAROCKYEEEAAAA the odds was 10 against one and they still fought for more than 6 years against the whole world alone. thats whats called power. now go fuck yourself :)
@cryteeek germany had italy(yea not that much good but)finland,and all the countrys they took in they way to moscow,stalingrad etc gave them troops did you know that all the troops that where in the northern and southern flanks in stalingrad werent even german ,germany wasnt along that is bulsh*t and they didnt fight against the hole world at first they just invaded one country at a time with help of their allys when they invaded the cccp(14 countrys)they got stoped at the 5th month
Life is an eternal struggle of ideas and toughs on everything. Personal achievements, searching, for truth. All that is war, it is not only a vast field of destruction.
@iloveeverything219 Ah yes I do know that. I guess I agree with you. But I said I hate war because of all the unnecessary bloodshed. Sure war can be achievements, searching for truth, etc, but all that can be ahieved by peace. We do not need war for peace. Peace can be achieved by peace, if you know what I mean.
War is not only bloodshell, war is part of the human nature, not peace.
It is not a reson to hate the human of course, but interior peace is a lie.
I may appear as a evil american gunshop owner by saying this, but peace for humans is a lie, war is life in everything you do, you must love war and therefore you can love yourself, because war is beautiful. ( I am not talking about butchery)
@iloveeverything219 Well, I kind of see what you are saying, I really do. I have heard that war is a part of human nature, and it can't change. But I believe it can change. I am searching for hope that one day, war will not be needed to perform a goal. This is my opinion though.
@TheJaceMaster I like Benjamin "Hawkeye" Pierce's solution for war. He said, " We invite all the jokers from the north and the south to a cocktail party...last guy on his feet at the end wins the war!"
Hopefully one day, War won't be needed. Because nobody would unite if not for war, take for example WWII Russia. "Da! The German swine have invaded our Holy Motherland!" (ignore the Holy part, them being athiests, lol.)
But yeah, you see how War as a whole unifies people.
@melvingamer Wehrmach was the German Army just like the British Army is the British Army the US Army is US Army and Russian army is the Russian army! there is no Monarchist Army for Brits Republican army for americans. Political status quo doesnt change the names of nationalities!
@usaarmyairboens uuuum no! watch the movie "Enemy at the gates" again and then the first 30 sec. from this video. Believe me you will not find this scene in "Enemy at the gates". Search "Stalingrad movie" in youtube and you will find this. Many clips from this Video are from the german movie "Stalingrad". And its german! In the first 30 sec. they speaking german!
Pants video, what is it supposed to be? A trailer for a film? I am endlessly fascinated by the battle for Stalingrad, the bravery and sacrifice of the Russians is something we must never forget. Never mind the Americans, if anyone defeated the Krauts it was the Russians. Just a good job Hitler was a conceited, arrogant idiot, who decided to send 300, 000 troops to their death on the Eastern front rather than wipe us out first and then look at the Ruskis...
@smoothmicra I don't see how you can give the Russians credit, they lost millions of men with their crappy battle plans. I would have preferred to fight with the U.S. At least they did not send poor men to their deaths in front of machine gun fire.
@airforcerotc305 Got to give the Russians credit for the incredible stamina and bravery they demonstrated. It is true that life was incredibly cheap in Stalin's Russia, but don't forget this was a conscript, barely trained and poorly equipped army against the highly trained military might of the Germans. You can't call the defeat of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad a 'crappy battle plan', it was genius and took the Germans entirely by surprise.
@smoothmicra True enough. They were some brave individuals who died fighting for what they believed in. I just prefer the way the modern u.s conducts military operations.
@airforcerotc305 Remember, they were consripts like most of the soldiers in vietnam, they weren't ready to fight, it's the officers who did the killings of the conscripts, their battle plans managed to win the eastern front single handedly, but were supllied by the british and Americans but was stopped during the times before and after d day.
to some earlier comments, it's fair to say that a soviet tank army was the equivalent of a german pz korps [not in components but in number of men, support units etc-also, german inf div usually comprised 12-17,000 men, soviet- 4-8,000 men]. but by mid '44 german volksgren divs had 5-8,000 men and Pz div was little higher in tanks than a sov tank div tho it did have larger support units and men. by '45 german units were in name only. regts and divs were actually coy size, mostly.
2 films is here ; the American - "Enemy at the Gates" and the German. I do not remember the name, seems to be simply "Stalingrad". author skillfully assembled alternately from both films. Only the music is not suitable. then went to 80% of the repertoire Ramshshteyn, not this an English song.
@Tadej96SLO тут 2 фильма - американский -"Враг у ворот" и германский не помню как называется ,по моему просто "Сталинград". автор грамотно смонтировал поочередно из обоих фильмов . Только музыка не в кассу совсем. тут подошли бы 80 % из репертуара Рамшштейн, а не эта английская песня.
@JPmercykiller123 2 films here - the American - "Enemy at the Gates" and the German. I do not remember the name, seems to be simply "Stalingrad". author skillfully assembled alternately from both films. Only the music is not suitable. then went to 80% of the repertoire Ramshshteyn, not this an English song.
I want to clarify. When I spoke to the technical superiority of the Soviet army, I mean, that Russian has a large number of tanks, planes and guns. This means the technical superiority of the army.
And youre one again misinformed by romistrikows propaganda reports. The parts of the reserves of 5th guard tank arrived on forenoon of 13th july and just supported the
futile attempt of the Russians, to break the positions of Totenkopf and to fall in the back of 2. SS Panzer Korps.
Fact: The fast advance and then the hard resistance of Totenkopf helped to reduce the fighting power of 5th Guards Tank Army, because romistrikow shattered his reserves.
Fact: So when we say that Totenkopf was stopped on evening of 12th july, than from 6th, 7th guard army and 31. guard tank korps, but not from 5th guard tank army reserves.
(3 huge russian Battleunits to stop just one german division..... Apart from the fact that this german division reached its target for the day.....
Fact: Totenkopf could held the Flank of 2. SS Panzerkorps against numerical superior russian units in the following days.
@Imprudentman For example in 1:06 (the scene of those airplanes) that part don't belong from the movie Stalingrad, but don't worry i just find out what movie is... is: Enemy at the gates
But for this day ,12.7.43, the strength of the Central Front, specify only 645.300 soldiers. That means an additional loss of 60,000 soldiers. Despite the central front had received considerable reinforcements during this time.
Nope, sorr,y cant agree, cause the russians reportet only about 200 combat ready tanks on mrning of 13th july. And the losses of totenkopf were mainly from fighting 5th guard army-not tank army, and 5. GdA, der 1. PzA und der 6. GdA. Only On 13th july totenkopf met with 5. russian mechGdK.
And totenkopf fought against units of 5th tank guard army, NOT ONLY 5TH TANKGUARD) AND 1. PzA 6. GdA. So Tanks of Totenkopf did not fight against only 5th Guard TANK on 12th july.
@Anullu22 Probably yes. But the battle-order division Totenkopf on July 12 was to cut the road Prokhorovka - Kartashevka. July 12 Division major forces advancing from the bridgehead on the river Psyol. There is division and suffered the losses that can not be concealed. Actions of this division is an important part Prokhorovka battle. This division has an important role in the attack. They had to squeeze in a pincer attack Russian Corps in rivers.
On morning of 13th july Reich and Lah reported 190 tanks as comabt ready, meansthe 60 light damaged german tanks are insignificant, cause 1day later they were comat ready. Most of these 60 tanks got repaired on the battelfield, they did not need to get in garage. So Reich and LAh reporet 190 tanks combat ready on 13th july.
And we can note is following, despite that the russians had all advantages on their side, they were superior in numbers, knew exactly when and were the germans would come and well prepared - In view of that which was available to both sites, the achivements of the russian frontline units were not satisfactory.
In fact: the 5th guard tank and 1. russian tank army failed their mission to eliminate the danger of an german breaktrough. The german tank units were in good shape and one german Tankkorps were hold in reserve.
After the counterattacks of 5th guard and 1. russian tank army which failed their objektives. Sure, they impeded the progress of the German tanks, but that was not their final operativ/tactical objective.
The question of the almost breaktrough and reserves: The russians had reserves but they were not able to resist a concentrated german attack. And not to forget, what would have happened if the Armygroup south could have used XXIV. Pz.K ?
When i said the russians had no reserves, than i mean in the short term. If army group south could have used XXIV. Pz.K, on 13th or 14 th july, the russians short term reserves and the remains could not have prevent a german break trough.
The losses numbers for 3.tankkorps Kempf and 4 tank army you wrote about were the losses for the days from 11th july till 17th july, not all on 12th july.
The result of the tank counterattacks of the russians in fact failed.
They had order to breaktrough the german lines, and to destroy the german Tankunits. But they failed. And ist important to know that the german tanks were stopped by the orders of german high command and not from the russian tanks.
Ultimately the massive counter-offensive of the russian 5th GdPzA and 1 PzA on 12.7 failed with heavy losses. The russian 5th GdPzA failed with two TK at II / Pz.Rgt. LAH.
While the german Div GD in conjunction with the 3rd german Tankdivision defeated all the attacks of the 1st russian PzA .
Very important too: I dont want to blame russian soldiers or generals, which were definitely one of the bravest in WW2, but the russian frontline-troops ,tactical and operativ, were not up to the german frontline soldiers.
And the most important reason, the reason of this discussion, the losses statistics are clear: 1 german loss - 5-6 russians losses. No matter, if we discuss damaged, light damaged, destroyed or deafeated., the rate of losses remains the same.
We can discuss the meaning of damaged, destroyed, defaeted for weeks, but does it change the result of "Prochrowka"?
12th july. "the highlight" the root of the myth of prochorowka born by sowjet propaganda lies, the myth of Prochorowka is destroyed. The german PanzerKorps were not been decisively defeated. Prochorowka was far away from an decisive battle. On the contrary, Prokhorovka was a total failure for the Russians, when we look at their plans.
I just reflect the numbers of casualties belonging to my sources.
Tey defaeted a tank, but hours , days or weeks later the tank which was deafeted returned to the battlefield. At germans or russian side it was the same....
Sure there were more damaged Tigers than destroyed Tigers, but 3 destroyed Tigers are 3 destroyed Tigers no matter how many damaged tigers the germans had.
@Anullu22 Surely such records was conducted by the German command - how many tanks are being repaired. How many tanks charged to the plant or destroyed. Without this is simply not possible to plan military operations.
Well, just 1 tiger, cause often in tank combats the russians tanks did not come close enough to damage the tigers irreparably. The most dangeroeus enemy for the tigers were the Anti tank cannons i think. The Tigertank-crews were not very afraid about T 34 tanks, they feared the AntiTanks Canons. The most casualties the tigers had, were from russian anti tank gun settings. The russians were often very-well masked and and went in wait for tanks.
@Anullu22 Yes I also read similar opinions of the German officers on the Russian anti-tank weapons. I think they are quite reliable. But as far as Prokhorovka then one of the divisions 2. ss lost 2 tanks tiger, rather than one.
Yes, air support for 2. SS was very effective and was one of the main reasons for the progress of 2 SS Panzerkorps. In the north, 9th german army havent had that strong air-support, and their attacks failed.
if I interpret brandt correctly, the main and most intense combats were on 12th july, on 13th the intense of the combats subsided.
@Anullu22 Obviously you have correctly interpreted the Brandt. In fact, fights, about the same intensity has not abated a few days. Russian counterattack continued around the perimeter of the German penetrations. Unless, therefore, seems to me that German historians have not noticed - the great tank battle at Prokhorovka July 12. As discussed by Soviet propaganda. Just any day between July 8 and July 15, corresponded to this definition.
Many german historians believed in the myth of prochorowka and just wrote the sowjet propaganda reports in their books. The tragedy of stalingrad was the main focus of the German, not Kursk or other Battles for the years after the war. Only in recent years it has been known that Prokhorovka was just a Sequence of intense fighting and not one great battle with hundreds of tanks on confined space at the same time.
@Anullu22 I think you're right. Indeed in 1940 the German army was better than all other armies in the world is technically equipped, and had experience fighting under the new military doctrine - the blitzkrieg. This could not boast of any army at the time.
@Anullu22 Some material on Prokhorovka not known to historians even now. For example due to high losses in tanks on the Voronezh and Central fronts a commission Malenkov - to identify the perpetrators. The results of this work secret, even now.
@Anullu22 Soviet historians had little information and lots of party instructions. Therefore, Western historians say about the example of the battles on the Eastern Front just pointed to the ideological Soviet assessment and argued that it was a lie. Often, it really was so. In Soviet times, it was argued that under Prokhorovka July 12 were destroyed 400 German tanks. In fact, in 2,5 times less.
Prochorowka: 17- 20 german tanks total destroyed and 41 heavy damaged for long repair. 67 light damaged.
Brandt said 54 total losses after citadelle for 2 SS
Frieser and Töppel said after studying exactly reports from 2 SS Korps: 33- 36 total destroyed after citadelle (5th till 17th july). There is a differ of 18. Maybe 18 of this 54 were really damaged and went for repair in germany but they were still in stock of the SS. Cause tank reserves were low in germany, so they needed every tank.
@Anullu22 I think Dieter Brandt said the correct numbers 50 destroyed German tanks and 108 tanks in need of repair no more than 4 days. Here all is well. With regard to 54 tanks and three assault weapons, then they either simply destroyed or sent to long-term repairs in Dnepropetrovsk or Germany. Anyway, these tanks are permanently lost to the Citadel transaction, and perhaps the whole in 1943, given the shortage of spare parts of the Wehrmacht.
@Anullu22 For example the presence of Soviet tanks in front of 21,000 -22,000 Great Patriotic War in general was not widely known in the USSR. True history buffs can learn about the correct number of individual sources. For example, from the memoirs of Zhukov, but the broad masses of people did not know these numbers.
that means: Secret Commando case army group south on 17,7,1943.
In worst case: 54 tanks of 2 SS korps were not available after citadelle(17,7,43) in cause of destruction and huge damages, huge damaged tanks which needed very long repairs, but these tanks were total losses too because for the following battle they were not available.
@Anullu22 Russian, too, believe that the deadweight loss July 12 - 40 tanks and self-propelled units in 2. SS and 3. tank corps of the Army Kempf. As regards the reports of German officers - I have some doubts. More precisely if we could see the repair fund armored divisions. Unfortunately the Germans do not have publications on the subject.
@Anullu22 It seems to me that any day from July 10-15 can be considered equivalent to a fight Prokhorovka July 12. 3rd Panzer Corps lost 36 tanks and assault guns wrote Tsetterling N. and Frankson And of the 66 tanks and 1 shtug on July 18. Tomzov for example believes that 3. Panzer Corps lost 96 tanks and 1 shtug. Loss of 3. Tank Corps until July 16 at least 40 units of tanks. Consequently, the irreversible losses in the battle Prokhorovsky July 12-16, at least 60 tanks.
@Anullu22 Yes, July 12 2. CC lost 20 tanks. 3. Tank Corps during the period from July 12-16, lost at least 40 tanks. A total of 60 tanks irretrievably lost in the Battle of Prokhorovka not counting the German self-propelled guns. (Marder and Grillo). Which was lost in July, no less than 24 pieces. ( Adolf Hitler - 7 pcs , Das Reich - 9 pcs. 3 Tank Corps - 8 pieces) . Russian does not take into account the loss of Sau Hummel and Vespe.
indeed, prochoworka 12th july was just the highlight in of many Tankcombats in these days. I think we reached largely an agreement with the Losses of Prochorowka.
Just one thing: You wrote about the tigers of Totenkopf that they lost 10 tigers total destroyed.
In my files location Totenkopf had 13 Tigers available on 5th july, during Ciitadelle they lost 11(not 11 i a row on one single day) but just 1 as total destroyed, the other 12 were after citadelle combat ready.
@Anullu22 Yes . 10 . Tigers were in need of repair, so were not prepared to fight a few days or weeks. Certainly repair their team tried to pull it off. It is surprising that the German divisions 2.SS have annihilated each 1 tiger. Similar to the limit?
Belonging my sources many german tank losses were from anti tank guns during Citadelle.
Tiger was a perfect Tank for defensive battles, covered from german Panzergrenadiers and some AT-Guns a deadly obstacle.
But Panzer IV was till 1945 the tank which was used mainly, Tigers were support, and just used with low numbers at tankdivisions. But often the russians and western-allied soldiers mistakenly described the Panzer IV as a Tiger ( The Tigerschreck)
@Anullu22 Yes. Russian soldiers often took the T-4 with a skirt for the Tiger tank. And as any German self-propelled called Ferdinand. Of course they did not do this on purpose. In fact, the Tigers were a little on the front, and Ferdinand tank destroyer, and even less.
@Anullu22 Why? Defeated a tank can be repaired at the factory. But he was written off the combat units and was considered a part destroyed. But the truth is that before the plants they could not reach. They could be destroyed and gathering places of tanks at the front. This had happened differently.
After that day the Soviet Forces were not able to continue deep offensive operations, rather the Soviet forces were forced on the defensive, they were only able to some smaller uncoordinated actions at the tactical level.
In the total balance is to be noted, therefore, that the Soviets had SUCCEEDED IN NOTHING of what they set out to, and certainly not the "bleeding" of the German units. At 13.7. the Voronezh Front was particularly in the area around Prokhorovka in an almost desperate operational situation. Russian units still had highly qualified and battle-strong german Panzerkorps in front of itself, and the russian 5th tankguard and 1st tankarmy were badly hit and had no real reserves!
@Anullu22 Value of loss of Russian tanks to the German 2.5 to 1 for 7 day battle in Prokhorovka. Deadweight loss of the tanks 12 July 6-1 in the remaining days of 5 -1.
@Anullu22 There was no reserves in Russian? No friend of this style of attack is typical for the German commanders. That they put the full force of the first blow, and the reserves then you drove out of the offensive. Russian acted differently. 5 Army Rotmistrov was ready to fight a mechanized corps - 200 tanks. This case is not involved in the attack on July 12. Truth in what you say only that the situation for the Russian was really difficult. But time has worked on Russian, not German.
@Anullu22 Do you think that the division Totenkopf, which lost all the Tigers on July 13 and lost 46% of their medium tanks could also successfully perform their tasks?
Strictly speaking, the GREAT TANKBattle of prochorowka was a combat between II./Pz.Rgt. LAH and the russian tank korps 18 and 29. And this battle is the root of the myth of prochorowka, the greatest tank battle in history hunfreds of tanks in close combat, hundreds of destroyed german tanks and so on....
II./PzRgtLAH lost 3 Tanks as TOTAL loss on 12h july. 29th russian tank korps, on july 12th, alone lost 150 tanks of 212 and 117 of these 150 russian tanks of 29th were destroyed, thats proved in russian files and reports.
@Anullu22 Even if we take the highest number of 6,069 Russian tanks lost in the Citadel, from 5 July to late August - a figure lower than the ratio of 5-1 and 6-1. The loss of German tanks 1580 -1612 need scrutiny. Since it ignores the self-propelled anti-tank installation type Marder and Grillo. As well as not less than 66 tanks captured Germans who took part in the fighting.
@Anullu22 I think that you can assume anything. You write about the losses 9000 - 8400 Russian tanks. You must show your evidence. I already wrote to you about 3 tanks lost on July 12 at Prokhorovsky field and do not want to repeat.
The 3 total losses of II./Pz.Rgt. LAH is proven in lists of losses of army group south. And as you know, german bureaucracy is very exactly, and has nothing to do with propaganda.
@Anullu22 Loss 5 th Guards Army of about 400 tanks (18. 29., 2., 10. tank corps and mechanized corps). Loss of 2. SS (108 tanks, Adolf Hitler and the Reich and 46. Totenkopf tanks.) - 153 tanks. Value of total losses 2.5 -1. Deadweight loss - 6 -1. July 12, 1943.
nope, 5th guard, lost over 600 tanks all in all, 239 total losses is proven by russian files and reports. and romistrykow said himself that he lost on 12th july 400 tanks as damaged.
@Anullu22 5 th Guards Army attacked the 670 tanks. Of them had lost about 400 tanks (18. 29., 2., 10. tank corps and mechanized corps). Of the 400 tanks lost - 234 tanks lost forever. German deadweight loss July 12 - 40 tanks lost forever. Total losses of 153 German tanks.
@Anullu22 Yes you are right. Division Totenkopf was faced with 5 Guards Army. This does not change anything in Prokhorovsky battle, when we talk about casualties German and Russian. Here everything is consistent with common sense. With regard to the division Greater Germany, it was supposed to strengthen the strike 2. SS. But could not come on time because of attacks 1. Panzer Army on the left flank of the wedge.
It changes, cause Totenkopf lost not about 50 tanks on 12th july. My sources wrote that on 12th july only Panzergrenadiers from Reg. Eicke were involved in large area Prochorowka. Not until 13th Div Totenkopf met mainly with 5. mechGdK. So on 12th july.And The battles of GD are definitely not part of provhorowka. It was involved in battle with 1.tankarmy but not prohorowka.
@Anullu22 Of course, the tank division at the direction of its main attack should act his tank regiment. Panzer Division Totenkopf regiment crossed the river Psyol should build on the success divisions Adolf Hitler and the Reich. Which these divisions have 5 -11 July. That meant the destruction of Russian tank corps 5 Guards Tank Army and the capture of Prokhorovka. On the right flank of Army Group Kempf had to close the tongs and take the Ring Russian reserves.
If we remember that Reich and LAh reporet 190 tanks combt ready on morning of 13th july. Than its proven that the 60 light damaged tanks of LAH and Reich were not significant. Cause all of them were repaired. But 5th guard tank reported just about 200 combat ready tanks on mornig of 13th july. So fact: 2. SS Korps was in good shape and 5th guard sufferd hevy losses. No matter how many destroyed , defaeted, heavy damaged, damaged tanks, the attack of 5th guard failed under huge losses
It seems to me that the russian history has quit another view of battle of kursk and prochorowka than the german history. we can discuss it for weeks on, but i will not change my statistics and you will not change your statistics.But i will ask directly:is
prochorowka the same russian "Victory" what the sowjets wrote about it,after all this new sources are available?
Well, but it seems that the russians have another look on prochorowka than the germans, so the russian and german statistics of this battle (or battles) will not agree.
@Anullu22 But now we are discussing any topic of this battle. And there are no closed topics. The fact that there are Russian and German points of view on this question is obvious.
@Anullu22 Prokhorov battle is not a defeat of the Russian. It is quite obvious. In Russia, this battle is seen as a victory, achieved a very heavy price.
@Anullu22 In the Soviet period, just the appearance on the battlefield in Prokhorovka 5 Guards Tank Army Rotmistrov and 5 th Guards Army Zhadov perceived as a victory at Kursk. Of course it was far from reality. It was the myth of Soviet propaganda. 2. SS Panzer Corps also failed to defeat the 5 Guards Tank Army and move on to the city of Kursk. But before 2. SS Panzer Corps was such a problem.
@Anullu22 3. German tank corps entered into Prokhorovskaya battle on July 12 with the capture of the village Rzhavets. So take into account the loss of only 2. SS Panzer Corps is not right and wrong.
@Anullu22 Indeed the structure of Russian tanks and damage to the Germans was different. Russian losses amounted to at least 70% of attacking tanks - 400 pieces. 5 Guards Tank Army had 950 tanks on the list. One way or another in it there were about 450 tanks in service on July 16. By the way Vatutin ordered the defense forces of the front only on July 17 it seems, when the Germans began to divert troops.
@Anullu22 There is a very good book on this topic. Leo Lopuhovsky "Prokhorovka: nonclassified."This book is devoid of the Communist Party of ratings used German data. The author has done a really great and important work.
There are several other reasons that Hitler stopped Zitadelle(for example russian Counter attack at Orel, and allied landings at Sicily)but the operation of 5th guard tank Army was not decisive.
And I must correct myself: 5th Guard Tank Army was defeated ,operational and tactical, at prochorowka on 12th july.
So if we look to the operativ and tactical orders for 5th guard tank army, and if we look then what 5th guard tank army finally reached, we see that the 5th guard tank army definitely suffered a defeat
The germans were stopped "temporarily" through the attacks of 5th guard tank, but the 5th guard tank definitely could not fullfill their mission, and their mission was to break trough and to destroy the german Panzerkorps in a huge charge. 5th guard tank army had namely NO order to hold the line. Fact: The new Cannae, which the russian generals planned, failed completely.
Russian generals said the same, in a confidential study of the Soviet General Staff, which was written during WW2, the following is written: "On 12 July, the 5th Guards Tank Army failed in fulfilling their assigned mission."
Source: The Battle for Kursk1943. The soviet General Staff Study.
@Anullu22 July 13 in the bend of the river acted Psyol 82 tanks Division Totenkopf and 92 of the tank 5. Guards Mechanized Corps. In total 174 of the tank. And you say - did not significant battles!
@Anullu22 Yes. In fact, before the 2. SS was such a problem - to break Russian reserves. The Germans knew the tactical situation on the 10 - July 11. For them, there was no secret the presence of 5. Guards Tank Army and 5. Army Guard Zhadova. But they could not solve it. Division Totenkopf was unable to get through to Prokhorovka bridgehead. Kempf, Army Group was unable to blow from the south to surround the Russian armored corps.
@Anullu22 "Broken" 5 Guards Tank Army also held positions at the front. 13. July of the army attacked the Germans. Another thing is that the frontal attack on July 12 was not successful, that's true. July 16 at the Army had 444 ready for battle tanks and 212 in repairs in the Russian rear. How is this possible Explain to me? So do not write about the "broken" Army, right?
@Anullu22 You can argue that the 5. Guards Tank Army suffered heavy losses. That's true. But the loss of German tank units were not lesser. In addition the structure of German and Russian losses were different this is also true, but it does not say about their absence, especially from the Germans.
Germany #1
cryteeek 3 months ago
@cryteeek №2
fantomazer70 2 months ago
@cryteeek sorry for telling you this but they lost
IWANAROCKYEEEAAAA 2 days ago
@IWANAROCKYEEEAAAA the odds was 10 against one and they still fought for more than 6 years against the whole world alone. thats whats called power. now go fuck yourself :)
cryteeek 2 days ago
@cryteeek germany had italy(yea not that much good but)finland,and all the countrys they took in they way to moscow,stalingrad etc gave them troops did you know that all the troops that where in the northern and southern flanks in stalingrad werent even german ,germany wasnt along that is bulsh*t and they didnt fight against the hole world at first they just invaded one country at a time with help of their allys when they invaded the cccp(14 countrys)they got stoped at the 5th month
IWANAROCKYEEEAAAA 2 days ago
I hate war.
TheJaceMaster 3 months ago
@TheJaceMaster
War is life.
iloveeverything219 3 months ago
@iloveeverything219 Could you explain more of what you said please?
TheJaceMaster 3 months ago
@TheJaceMaster
Life is an eternal struggle of ideas and toughs on everything. Personal achievements, searching, for truth. All that is war, it is not only a vast field of destruction.
War is life.
iloveeverything219 3 months ago
@iloveeverything219 Ah yes I do know that. I guess I agree with you. But I said I hate war because of all the unnecessary bloodshed. Sure war can be achievements, searching for truth, etc, but all that can be ahieved by peace. We do not need war for peace. Peace can be achieved by peace, if you know what I mean.
TheJaceMaster 3 months ago
@TheJaceMaster
War is not only bloodshell, war is part of the human nature, not peace.
It is not a reson to hate the human of course, but interior peace is a lie.
I may appear as a evil american gunshop owner by saying this, but peace for humans is a lie, war is life in everything you do, you must love war and therefore you can love yourself, because war is beautiful. ( I am not talking about butchery)
iloveeverything219 3 months ago
@iloveeverything219 Well, I kind of see what you are saying, I really do. I have heard that war is a part of human nature, and it can't change. But I believe it can change. I am searching for hope that one day, war will not be needed to perform a goal. This is my opinion though.
TheJaceMaster 3 months ago
@TheJaceMaster I like Benjamin "Hawkeye" Pierce's solution for war. He said, " We invite all the jokers from the north and the south to a cocktail party...last guy on his feet at the end wins the war!"
Cyon1691 2 months ago
@TheJaceMaster
Hopefully one day, War won't be needed. Because nobody would unite if not for war, take for example WWII Russia. "Da! The German swine have invaded our Holy Motherland!" (ignore the Holy part, them being athiests, lol.)
But yeah, you see how War as a whole unifies people.
At least for a time.
RyanBrooksby 1 week ago
Wehrmach is just the nazi army right?
melvingamer 4 months ago
@melvingamer Wehrmach was the German Army just like the British Army is the British Army the US Army is US Army and Russian army is the Russian army! there is no Monarchist Army for Brits Republican army for americans. Political status quo doesnt change the names of nationalities!
ImperialGuard9001 3 months ago
by VIDEO - u must be win, germans.....buhaha)))
vetermgla 4 months ago
this video sucks …
vincent7520 4 months ago
what are the names of the movie clips you used.
I know one of them is Enemy at the Gates.
WesleySparks14 5 months ago
@WesleySparks14 many clips are from the german movie "Stalingrad". You can watch it on youtube.
Schuhcremesepp 5 months ago
@Schuhcremesepp Its not german and not called "Stalingrad" Its called " Enemy at the gates"
usaarmyairboens 5 months ago
@usaarmyairboens uuuum no! watch the movie "Enemy at the gates" again and then the first 30 sec. from this video. Believe me you will not find this scene in "Enemy at the gates". Search "Stalingrad movie" in youtube and you will find this. Many clips from this Video are from the german movie "Stalingrad". And its german! In the first 30 sec. they speaking german!
Schuhcremesepp 5 months ago
@Schuhcremesepp Oh SRY its was cause i saw many sceenes from Enemy at the gates.... my bad :)
usaarmyairboens 5 months ago
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@MrRikardoe
maybe you will tell us something about the friendship between germany and sweden?
42 million troops?
42 is wrong.
troops too.
harrikelm 5 months ago
Pants video, what is it supposed to be? A trailer for a film? I am endlessly fascinated by the battle for Stalingrad, the bravery and sacrifice of the Russians is something we must never forget. Never mind the Americans, if anyone defeated the Krauts it was the Russians. Just a good job Hitler was a conceited, arrogant idiot, who decided to send 300, 000 troops to their death on the Eastern front rather than wipe us out first and then look at the Ruskis...
smoothmicra 5 months ago
@smoothmicra 42 million soviet troops died.. just saying.
MrRikardoe 5 months ago
@MrRikardoe
maybe you will tell us something about the friendship between germany and sweden?
42 million troops?
42 is wrong.
troops too.
harrikelm 5 months ago
@MrRikardoe the highest estimation is 10,700,000 troop deaths
mesohorny360 5 months ago
@MrRikardoe the highest estimation is 10,700,000 troop deaths
mesohorny360 5 months ago
@mesohorny360 Yeah, my bad, 42 million dead Soviet citizens, Including Stalins madness, Civlians and famine.
MrRikardoe 5 months ago
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waste0fspais 5 months ago
@smoothmicra I don't see how you can give the Russians credit, they lost millions of men with their crappy battle plans. I would have preferred to fight with the U.S. At least they did not send poor men to their deaths in front of machine gun fire.
airforcerotc305 5 months ago
@airforcerotc305 Got to give the Russians credit for the incredible stamina and bravery they demonstrated. It is true that life was incredibly cheap in Stalin's Russia, but don't forget this was a conscript, barely trained and poorly equipped army against the highly trained military might of the Germans. You can't call the defeat of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad a 'crappy battle plan', it was genius and took the Germans entirely by surprise.
smoothmicra 5 months ago
@smoothmicra True enough. They were some brave individuals who died fighting for what they believed in. I just prefer the way the modern u.s conducts military operations.
airforcerotc305 5 months ago
@airforcerotc305
you mean bombing poor countries over oil? no bravery in that...
diramonsky 5 months ago
@airforcerotc305 Remember, they were consripts like most of the soldiers in vietnam, they weren't ready to fight, it's the officers who did the killings of the conscripts, their battle plans managed to win the eastern front single handedly, but were supllied by the british and Americans but was stopped during the times before and after d day.
Eshayzbra96 4 months ago
to some earlier comments, it's fair to say that a soviet tank army was the equivalent of a german pz korps [not in components but in number of men, support units etc-also, german inf div usually comprised 12-17,000 men, soviet- 4-8,000 men]. but by mid '44 german volksgren divs had 5-8,000 men and Pz div was little higher in tanks than a sov tank div tho it did have larger support units and men. by '45 german units were in name only. regts and divs were actually coy size, mostly.
narred 6 months ago
2 films is here ; the American - "Enemy at the Gates" and the German. I do not remember the name, seems to be simply "Stalingrad". author skillfully assembled alternately from both films. Only the music is not suitable. then went to 80% of the repertoire Ramshshteyn, not this an English song.
Bugsybag 6 months ago
what movie is this?
Tadej96SLO 6 months ago
@Tadej96SLO тут 2 фильма - американский -"Враг у ворот" и германский не помню как называется ,по моему просто "Сталинград". автор грамотно смонтировал поочередно из обоих фильмов . Только музыка не в кассу совсем. тут подошли бы 80 % из репертуара Рамшштейн, а не эта английская песня.
Bugsybag 6 months ago
@Bugsybag Sry i cant read cyrillic :DDD
Tadej96SLO 6 months ago
SABATON HELL FUCKIN' YEAH!
YoungCrimeRiders 7 months ago
Whats up with the retarded music. Like I should enjoy it while people kill eachother
YJAMD 7 months ago
Greatest operation in history done bye the greatest army in the world : Operation , Barbarossa
TheEMIR95 7 months ago
the soviet union should have never fallen!!!!!
MrAlphakilla 8 months ago
what is the name of that movie?
JPmercykiller123 8 months ago
@JPmercykiller123
It's the german movie "Stalingrad" directed by Joseph Vilsmaier
lapaloma72 8 months ago
@JPmercykiller123 2 films here - the American - "Enemy at the Gates" and the German. I do not remember the name, seems to be simply "Stalingrad". author skillfully assembled alternately from both films. Only the music is not suitable. then went to 80% of the repertoire Ramshshteyn, not this an English song.
Bugsybag 6 months ago
come on the russian sovites!!!!!
MrAlphakilla 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I want to clarify. When I spoke to the technical superiority of the Soviet army, I mean, that Russian has a large number of tanks, planes and guns. This means the technical superiority of the army.
Imprudentman 9 months ago
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Imprudentman 9 months ago
The Germans would have won that if it was not for Hilter.
TheFatbazza 9 months ago
видео из фильма,ну да американцы умеют делать все не правдоподобно,браво .....
Vadsee 9 months ago
@Vadsee там американцев совсем не большой кусочек .
Imprudentman 9 months ago
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Imprudentman 9 months ago
What are the name of those movies?
sperumita6mzero 10 months ago
@sperumita6mzero Stalingrad
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
So you continue writing about the rapairs of tanks from 5th Guard tank Army, it will not help you....
Anullu22 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Imprudentman
And youre one again misinformed by romistrikows propaganda reports. The parts of the reserves of 5th guard tank arrived on forenoon of 13th july and just supported the
futile attempt of the Russians, to break the positions of Totenkopf and to fall in the back of 2. SS Panzer Korps.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Fact: The fast advance and then the hard resistance of Totenkopf helped to reduce the fighting power of 5th Guards Tank Army, because romistrikow shattered his reserves.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Fact: So when we say that Totenkopf was stopped on evening of 12th july, than from 6th, 7th guard army and 31. guard tank korps, but not from 5th guard tank army reserves.
(3 huge russian Battleunits to stop just one german division..... Apart from the fact that this german division reached its target for the day.....
Fact: Totenkopf could held the Flank of 2. SS Panzerkorps against numerical superior russian units in the following days.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman Are there different versions?? Because some clips don't belong from the German version
sperumita6mzero 9 months ago
@sperumita6mzero I do not understand what you mean.
Imprudentman 9 months ago
@Imprudentman For example in 1:06 (the scene of those airplanes) that part don't belong from the movie Stalingrad, but don't worry i just find out what movie is... is: Enemy at the gates
Thanks
sperumita6mzero 9 months ago
@sperumita6mzero You are right. In the clip used snippets of those two movies. Thank corrected.
Imprudentman 9 months ago
@Imprudentman
But for this day ,12.7.43, the strength of the Central Front, specify only 645.300 soldiers. That means an additional loss of 60,000 soldiers. Despite the central front had received considerable reinforcements during this time.
Finally: 90.000 personnel losses.
Anullu22 9 months ago
Nope, sorr,y cant agree, cause the russians reportet only about 200 combat ready tanks on mrning of 13th july. And the losses of totenkopf were mainly from fighting 5th guard army-not tank army, and 5. GdA, der 1. PzA und der 6. GdA. Only On 13th july totenkopf met with 5. russian mechGdK.
Anullu22 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
And totenkopf fought against units of 5th tank guard army, NOT ONLY 5TH TANKGUARD) AND 1. PzA 6. GdA. So Tanks of Totenkopf did not fight against only 5th Guard TANK on 12th july.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Probably yes. But the battle-order division Totenkopf on July 12 was to cut the road Prokhorovka - Kartashevka. July 12 Division major forces advancing from the bridgehead on the river Psyol. There is division and suffered the losses that can not be concealed. Actions of this division is an important part Prokhorovka battle. This division has an important role in the attack. They had to squeeze in a pincer attack Russian Corps in rivers.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
On morning of 13th july Reich and Lah reported 190 tanks as comabt ready, meansthe 60 light damaged german tanks are insignificant, cause 1day later they were comat ready. Most of these 60 tanks got repaired on the battelfield, they did not need to get in garage. So Reich and LAh reporet 190 tanks combat ready on 13th july.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
An on 12th july 2. SS just lost 17 - 20 tanks as total loss. not 40.
Because its proven from 5.7. till 23.7 2.SS Korps lost just 36 tanks as total destruct.
Anullu22 10 months ago
And we can note is following, despite that the russians had all advantages on their side, they were superior in numbers, knew exactly when and were the germans would come and well prepared - In view of that which was available to both sites, the achivements of the russian frontline units were not satisfactory.
Anullu22 10 months ago
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Anullu22 10 months ago
In fact: the 5th guard tank and 1. russian tank army failed their mission to eliminate the danger of an german breaktrough. The german tank units were in good shape and one german Tankkorps were hold in reserve.
After the counterattacks of 5th guard and 1. russian tank army which failed their objektives. Sure, they impeded the progress of the German tanks, but that was not their final operativ/tactical objective.
Anullu22 10 months ago
The question of the almost breaktrough and reserves: The russians had reserves but they were not able to resist a concentrated german attack. And not to forget, what would have happened if the Armygroup south could have used XXIV. Pz.K ?
When i said the russians had no reserves, than i mean in the short term. If army group south could have used XXIV. Pz.K, on 13th or 14 th july, the russians short term reserves and the remains could not have prevent a german break trough.
Anullu22 10 months ago
The losses numbers for 3.tankkorps Kempf and 4 tank army you wrote about were the losses for the days from 11th july till 17th july, not all on 12th july.
The result of the tank counterattacks of the russians in fact failed.
They had order to breaktrough the german lines, and to destroy the german Tankunits. But they failed. And ist important to know that the german tanks were stopped by the orders of german high command and not from the russian tanks.
Anullu22 10 months ago
Ultimately the massive counter-offensive of the russian 5th GdPzA and 1 PzA on 12.7 failed with heavy losses. The russian 5th GdPzA failed with two TK at II / Pz.Rgt. LAH.
While the german Div GD in conjunction with the 3rd german Tankdivision defeated all the attacks of the 1st russian PzA .
Anullu22 10 months ago
Very important too: I dont want to blame russian soldiers or generals, which were definitely one of the bravest in WW2, but the russian frontline-troops ,tactical and operativ, were not up to the german frontline soldiers.
Anullu22 10 months ago
And the most important reason, the reason of this discussion, the losses statistics are clear: 1 german loss - 5-6 russians losses. No matter, if we discuss damaged, light damaged, destroyed or deafeated., the rate of losses remains the same.
Anullu22 10 months ago
We can discuss the meaning of damaged, destroyed, defaeted for weeks, but does it change the result of "Prochrowka"?
12th july. "the highlight" the root of the myth of prochorowka born by sowjet propaganda lies, the myth of Prochorowka is destroyed. The german PanzerKorps were not been decisively defeated. Prochorowka was far away from an decisive battle. On the contrary, Prokhorovka was a total failure for the Russians, when we look at their plans.
Anullu22 10 months ago
I just reflect the numbers of casualties belonging to my sources.
Tey defaeted a tank, but hours , days or weeks later the tank which was deafeted returned to the battlefield. At germans or russian side it was the same....
Anullu22 10 months ago
Sure there were more damaged Tigers than destroyed Tigers, but 3 destroyed Tigers are 3 destroyed Tigers no matter how many damaged tigers the germans had.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Surely such records was conducted by the German command - how many tanks are being repaired. How many tanks charged to the plant or destroyed. Without this is simply not possible to plan military operations.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
Two possible answers:
1: russian tankers damaged a tiger and indicated it mistankenly as destroyed.
2. The russians mistakenly thought it was a Tiger but in real it was a Panzer IV.
Anullu22 10 months ago
Well, just 1 tiger, cause often in tank combats the russians tanks did not come close enough to damage the tigers irreparably. The most dangeroeus enemy for the tigers were the Anti tank cannons i think. The Tigertank-crews were not very afraid about T 34 tanks, they feared the AntiTanks Canons. The most casualties the tigers had, were from russian anti tank gun settings. The russians were often very-well masked and and went in wait for tanks.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Yes I also read similar opinions of the German officers on the Russian anti-tank weapons. I think they are quite reliable. But as far as Prokhorovka then one of the divisions 2. ss lost 2 tanks tiger, rather than one.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 It seems to me that the Citadel for Dieter Brandt ended the evening on July 12.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Yes, air support for 2. SS was very effective and was one of the main reasons for the progress of 2 SS Panzerkorps. In the north, 9th german army havent had that strong air-support, and their attacks failed.
if I interpret brandt correctly, the main and most intense combats were on 12th july, on 13th the intense of the combats subsided.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Obviously you have correctly interpreted the Brandt. In fact, fights, about the same intensity has not abated a few days. Russian counterattack continued around the perimeter of the German penetrations. Unless, therefore, seems to me that German historians have not noticed - the great tank battle at Prokhorovka July 12. As discussed by Soviet propaganda. Just any day between July 8 and July 15, corresponded to this definition.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Many german historians believed in the myth of prochorowka and just wrote the sowjet propaganda reports in their books. The tragedy of stalingrad was the main focus of the German, not Kursk or other Battles for the years after the war. Only in recent years it has been known that Prokhorovka was just a Sequence of intense fighting and not one great battle with hundreds of tanks on confined space at the same time.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 I think you're right. Indeed in 1940 the German army was better than all other armies in the world is technically equipped, and had experience fighting under the new military doctrine - the blitzkrieg. This could not boast of any army at the time.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Some material on Prokhorovka not known to historians even now. For example due to high losses in tanks on the Voronezh and Central fronts a commission Malenkov - to identify the perpetrators. The results of this work secret, even now.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Soviet historians had little information and lots of party instructions. Therefore, Western historians say about the example of the battles on the Eastern Front just pointed to the ideological Soviet assessment and argued that it was a lie. Often, it really was so. In Soviet times, it was argued that under Prokhorovka July 12 were destroyed 400 German tanks. In fact, in 2,5 times less.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
Prochorowka: 17- 20 german tanks total destroyed and 41 heavy damaged for long repair. 67 light damaged.
Brandt said 54 total losses after citadelle for 2 SS
Frieser and Töppel said after studying exactly reports from 2 SS Korps: 33- 36 total destroyed after citadelle (5th till 17th july). There is a differ of 18. Maybe 18 of this 54 were really damaged and went for repair in germany but they were still in stock of the SS. Cause tank reserves were low in germany, so they needed every tank.
Anullu22 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 I think Dieter Brandt said the correct numbers 50 destroyed German tanks and 108 tanks in need of repair no more than 4 days. Here all is well. With regard to 54 tanks and three assault weapons, then they either simply destroyed or sent to long-term repairs in Dnepropetrovsk or Germany. Anyway, these tanks are permanently lost to the Citadel transaction, and perhaps the whole in 1943, given the shortage of spare parts of the Wehrmacht.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 For example the presence of Soviet tanks in front of 21,000 -22,000 Great Patriotic War in general was not widely known in the USSR. True history buffs can learn about the correct number of individual sources. For example, from the memoirs of Zhukov, but the broad masses of people did not know these numbers.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
The source of this losses:
Geheime Kommandosache, Ausfälle Heeresgruppe Süd, Stand 17.7.43, (Bl 74) BA-MA, RH 10/64
that means: Secret Commando case army group south on 17,7,1943.
In worst case: 54 tanks of 2 SS korps were not available after citadelle(17,7,43) in cause of destruction and huge damages, huge damaged tanks which needed very long repairs, but these tanks were total losses too because for the following battle they were not available.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Russian, too, believe that the deadweight loss July 12 - 40 tanks and self-propelled units in 2. SS and 3. tank corps of the Army Kempf. As regards the reports of German officers - I have some doubts. More precisely if we could see the repair fund armored divisions. Unfortunately the Germans do not have publications on the subject.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 It seems to me that any day from July 10-15 can be considered equivalent to a fight Prokhorovka July 12. 3rd Panzer Corps lost 36 tanks and assault guns wrote Tsetterling N. and Frankson And of the 66 tanks and 1 shtug on July 18. Tomzov for example believes that 3. Panzer Corps lost 96 tanks and 1 shtug. Loss of 3. Tank Corps until July 16 at least 40 units of tanks. Consequently, the irreversible losses in the battle Prokhorovsky July 12-16, at least 60 tanks.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Yes, July 12 2. CC lost 20 tanks. 3. Tank Corps during the period from July 12-16, lost at least 40 tanks. A total of 60 tanks irretrievably lost in the Battle of Prokhorovka not counting the German self-propelled guns. (Marder and Grillo). Which was lost in July, no less than 24 pieces. ( Adolf Hitler - 7 pcs , Das Reich - 9 pcs. 3 Tank Corps - 8 pieces) . Russian does not take into account the loss of Sau Hummel and Vespe.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
indeed, prochoworka 12th july was just the highlight in of many Tankcombats in these days. I think we reached largely an agreement with the Losses of Prochorowka.
Just one thing: You wrote about the tigers of Totenkopf that they lost 10 tigers total destroyed.
In my files location Totenkopf had 13 Tigers available on 5th july, during Ciitadelle they lost 11(not 11 i a row on one single day) but just 1 as total destroyed, the other 12 were after citadelle combat ready.
Anullu22 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Yes . 10 . Tigers were in need of repair, so were not prepared to fight a few days or weeks. Certainly repair their team tried to pull it off. It is surprising that the German divisions 2.SS have annihilated each 1 tiger. Similar to the limit?
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Belonging my sources many german tank losses were from anti tank guns during Citadelle.
Tiger was a perfect Tank for defensive battles, covered from german Panzergrenadiers and some AT-Guns a deadly obstacle.
But Panzer IV was till 1945 the tank which was used mainly, Tigers were support, and just used with low numbers at tankdivisions. But often the russians and western-allied soldiers mistakenly described the Panzer IV as a Tiger ( The Tigerschreck)
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Yes. Russian soldiers often took the T-4 with a skirt for the Tiger tank. And as any German self-propelled called Ferdinand. Of course they did not do this on purpose. In fact, the Tigers were a little on the front, and Ferdinand tank destroyer, and even less.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
I can not agree because in german army destroyed means destroyed....its for the junk yard.
Long term repair is relative, depends on what is broken, It's logical right?
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Why? Defeated a tank can be repaired at the factory. But he was written off the combat units and was considered a part destroyed. But the truth is that before the plants they could not reach. They could be destroyed and gathering places of tanks at the front. This had happened differently.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
After that day the Soviet Forces were not able to continue deep offensive operations, rather the Soviet forces were forced on the defensive, they were only able to some smaller uncoordinated actions at the tactical level.
Anullu22 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
In the total balance is to be noted, therefore, that the Soviets had SUCCEEDED IN NOTHING of what they set out to, and certainly not the "bleeding" of the German units. At 13.7. the Voronezh Front was particularly in the area around Prokhorovka in an almost desperate operational situation. Russian units still had highly qualified and battle-strong german Panzerkorps in front of itself, and the russian 5th tankguard and 1st tankarmy were badly hit and had no real reserves!
Anullu22 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
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@Anullu22 Value of loss of Russian tanks to the German 2.5 to 1 for 7 day battle in Prokhorovka. Deadweight loss of the tanks 12 July 6-1 in the remaining days of 5 -1.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 There was no reserves in Russian? No friend of this style of attack is typical for the German commanders. That they put the full force of the first blow, and the reserves then you drove out of the offensive. Russian acted differently. 5 Army Rotmistrov was ready to fight a mechanized corps - 200 tanks. This case is not involved in the attack on July 12. Truth in what you say only that the situation for the Russian was really difficult. But time has worked on Russian, not German.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Do you think that the division Totenkopf, which lost all the Tigers on July 13 and lost 46% of their medium tanks could also successfully perform their tasks?
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Strictly speaking, the GREAT TANKBattle of prochorowka was a combat between II./Pz.Rgt. LAH and the russian tank korps 18 and 29. And this battle is the root of the myth of prochorowka, the greatest tank battle in history hunfreds of tanks in close combat, hundreds of destroyed german tanks and so on....
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
II./PzRgtLAH lost 3 Tanks as TOTAL loss on 12h july. 29th russian tank korps, on july 12th, alone lost 150 tanks of 212 and 117 of these 150 russian tanks of 29th were destroyed, thats proved in russian files and reports.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Even if we take the highest number of 6,069 Russian tanks lost in the Citadel, from 5 July to late August - a figure lower than the ratio of 5-1 and 6-1. The loss of German tanks 1580 -1612 need scrutiny. Since it ignores the self-propelled anti-tank installation type Marder and Grillo. As well as not less than 66 tanks captured Germans who took part in the fighting.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Your report for all losses for july and august is also wrong.
All in all the germans lost 1330
the russians lost 8100 all in all.
Niklas Zetterling and Anders Frankson asume about 9400 russian losses for july and august all in all.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 I think that you can assume anything. You write about the losses 9000 - 8400 Russian tanks. You must show your evidence. I already wrote to you about 3 tanks lost on July 12 at Prokhorovsky field and do not want to repeat.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
The 3 total losses of II./Pz.Rgt. LAH is proven in lists of losses of army group south. And as you know, german bureaucracy is very exactly, and has nothing to do with propaganda.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Loss 5 th Guards Army of about 400 tanks (18. 29., 2., 10. tank corps and mechanized corps). Loss of 2. SS (108 tanks, Adolf Hitler and the Reich and 46. Totenkopf tanks.) - 153 tanks. Value of total losses 2.5 -1. Deadweight loss - 6 -1. July 12, 1943.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
nope, 5th guard, lost over 600 tanks all in all, 239 total losses is proven by russian files and reports. and romistrykow said himself that he lost on 12th july 400 tanks as damaged.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 5 th Guards Army attacked the 670 tanks. Of them had lost about 400 tanks (18. 29., 2., 10. tank corps and mechanized corps). Of the 400 tanks lost - 234 tanks lost forever. German deadweight loss July 12 - 40 tanks lost forever. Total losses of 153 German tanks.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Yes you are right. Division Totenkopf was faced with 5 Guards Army. This does not change anything in Prokhorovsky battle, when we talk about casualties German and Russian. Here everything is consistent with common sense. With regard to the division Greater Germany, it was supposed to strengthen the strike 2. SS. But could not come on time because of attacks 1. Panzer Army on the left flank of the wedge.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
It changes, cause Totenkopf lost not about 50 tanks on 12th july. My sources wrote that on 12th july only Panzergrenadiers from Reg. Eicke were involved in large area Prochorowka. Not until 13th Div Totenkopf met mainly with 5. mechGdK. So on 12th july.And The battles of GD are definitely not part of provhorowka. It was involved in battle with 1.tankarmy but not prohorowka.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Of course, the tank division at the direction of its main attack should act his tank regiment. Panzer Division Totenkopf regiment crossed the river Psyol should build on the success divisions Adolf Hitler and the Reich. Which these divisions have 5 -11 July. That meant the destruction of Russian tank corps 5 Guards Tank Army and the capture of Prokhorovka. On the right flank of Army Group Kempf had to close the tongs and take the Ring Russian reserves.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
If we remember that Reich and LAh reporet 190 tanks combt ready on morning of 13th july. Than its proven that the 60 light damaged tanks of LAH and Reich were not significant. Cause all of them were repaired. But 5th guard tank reported just about 200 combat ready tanks on mornig of 13th july. So fact: 2. SS Korps was in good shape and 5th guard sufferd hevy losses. No matter how many destroyed , defaeted, heavy damaged, damaged tanks, the attack of 5th guard failed under huge losses
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Very interesting: On 11th july LAh and Reich reportet 186 Tanks combat ready
and on 13th july 190 tanks combat ready.
How that? Because on 13th july other german tanks which got damaged in the days before 11 july,get back to the tankcompanies
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
It seems to me that the russian history has quit another view of battle of kursk and prochorowka than the german history. we can discuss it for weeks on, but i will not change my statistics and you will not change your statistics.But i will ask directly:is
prochorowka the same russian "Victory" what the sowjets wrote about it,after all this new sources are available?
Anullu22 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Well, but it seems that the russians have another look on prochorowka than the germans, so the russian and german statistics of this battle (or battles) will not agree.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 But now we are discussing any topic of this battle. And there are no closed topics. The fact that there are Russian and German points of view on this question is obvious.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Sure, we are discussing many topics of this battle, and what is the result of this battle when we take stock?
Cause on german point of view, the tank combats in the area of prochorowka means the heavy combats on 12th july.
And these combats were not successfull for the russians. So the myth of the sowjet history of that 12th july is not true.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Prokhorov battle is not a defeat of the Russian. It is quite obvious. In Russia, this battle is seen as a victory, achieved a very heavy price.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
You see, that is what i said about the point of views of this battle. Most russians believe in the myth of prokorovka.
In fact, Prokorovka was no defeat for the russians but the russians were far away from a victory.
Short: In the end of the 12th july the 2.SS Korps stand their ground and the 5th guard tank withdraw.
That can not be changed. In other words: the myth of the sowjet history of that 12th july is not true.
Anullu22 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
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@Anullu22 In the Soviet period, just the appearance on the battlefield in Prokhorovka 5 Guards Tank Army Rotmistrov and 5 th Guards Army Zhadov perceived as a victory at Kursk. Of course it was far from reality. It was the myth of Soviet propaganda. 2. SS Panzer Corps also failed to defeat the 5 Guards Tank Army and move on to the city of Kursk. But before 2. SS Panzer Corps was such a problem.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 3. German tank corps entered into Prokhorovskaya battle on July 12 with the capture of the village Rzhavets. So take into account the loss of only 2. SS Panzer Corps is not right and wrong.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
186 on 11th july and 190 on 13th july is Another prove for the good condition of 2. SS Tankkorps despite the heavy russian counterattacks.
You can bring a lot of new list of losses but you cannot change the fact of the withdrawn of the russian tanks korps on evening of 12th july....
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Indeed the structure of Russian tanks and damage to the Germans was different. Russian losses amounted to at least 70% of attacking tanks - 400 pieces. 5 Guards Tank Army had 950 tanks on the list. One way or another in it there were about 450 tanks in service on July 16. By the way Vatutin ordered the defense forces of the front only on July 17 it seems, when the Germans began to divert troops.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 There is a very good book on this topic. Leo Lopuhovsky "Prokhorovka: nonclassified."This book is devoid of the Communist Party of ratings used German data. The author has done a really great and important work.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Why do you marked your last comment as spam?
Maybe, because you know that your last comment is just based on a myth?
In our discussion you could not bring ONE argument which supported this myth.....
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Hello. I do not find anything like it. I think it could make someone else. Comment about what?
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Its a myth that 5th guard Tank stopped 2.SS.
There are several other reasons that Hitler stopped Zitadelle(for example russian Counter attack at Orel, and allied landings at Sicily)but the operation of 5th guard tank Army was not decisive.
And I must correct myself: 5th Guard Tank Army was defeated ,operational and tactical, at prochorowka on 12th july.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Well. As celebrate in Germany, May 9? And notes in Germany ending the 2nd World War?
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
So if we look to the operativ and tactical orders for 5th guard tank army, and if we look then what 5th guard tank army finally reached, we see that the 5th guard tank army definitely suffered a defeat
on that 12th july.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 What argument supports this myth?
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
The germans were stopped "temporarily" through the attacks of 5th guard tank, but the 5th guard tank definitely could not fullfill their mission, and their mission was to break trough and to destroy the german Panzerkorps in a huge charge. 5th guard tank army had namely NO order to hold the line. Fact: The new Cannae, which the russian generals planned, failed completely.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
The germans instead had to hold their positions on 12th and after that 12th july the germans were in a good shape, and able to fight.
And 5th guard had to withdraw on evening of 12th july.
If we look at this Combats between LAH, Reich versus 5th guard Tank, on 12th july:
It were the Germans who had to fend off attacks. 5th guard Tank engaged, with its 4 of 5 Korps only LAH and Reich on 12th july.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
Russian generals said the same, in a confidential study of the Soviet General Staff, which was written during WW2, the following is written: "On 12 July, the 5th Guards Tank Army failed in fulfilling their assigned mission."
Source: The Battle for Kursk1943. The soviet General Staff Study.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 July 13 in the bend of the river acted Psyol 82 tanks Division Totenkopf and 92 of the tank 5. Guards Mechanized Corps. In total 174 of the tank. And you say - did not significant battles!
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Imprudentman
So the loss rate were definitely 1 german - 6 Russians on12th july.
Sources: Glantz/House The battle for Kursk, KTB SSPzK, Töppel: The Offensive for Kursk, russian files of WW2.
Anullu22 10 months ago
@Anullu22 Yes. In fact, before the 2. SS was such a problem - to break Russian reserves. The Germans knew the tactical situation on the 10 - July 11. For them, there was no secret the presence of 5. Guards Tank Army and 5. Army Guard Zhadova. But they could not solve it. Division Totenkopf was unable to get through to Prokhorovka bridgehead. Kempf, Army Group was unable to blow from the south to surround the Russian armored corps.
Imprudentman 10 months ago
@Anullu22 "Broken" 5 Guards Tank Army also held positions at the front. 13. July of the army attacked the Germans. Another thing is that the frontal attack on July 12 was not successful, that's true. July 16 at the Army had 444 ready for battle tanks and 212 in repairs in the Russian rear. How is this possible Explain to me? So do not write about the "broken" Army, right?
Imprudentman 10 months ago
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Imprudentman 10 months ago
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@Anullu22 You can argue that the 5. Guards Tank Army suffered heavy losses. That's true. But the loss of German tank units were not lesser. In addition the structure of German and Russian losses were different this is also true, but it does not say about their absence, especially from the Germans.
Imprudentman 10 months ago