Shine (Movie) - David Helfgott Training for Rach 3

[zhangensprachen]

People do make a big deal out of the difficulty of rach 3, and it's warranted to an extent and silly to another extent. Personally, I think many sections of Scriabin's sonatas are more challenging, and if you're specifically thinking of a difficult chord passage, I can't think of anything more diabolical than Debussy's chord etude. Rachmaninoff's genius is not a diabolical one. He is like Chopin in the sense that he manages to marry an intended sound with playing ease.

[looney1023]

I wish he had chosen the toccata-cadenza which Rachmaninoff had preferred.

[whenmyguitar]

Thank you!

[TheJay0thegreat]

easy cadenza will be easy

[Choltik]

Awesome teacher!

[truvianni]

Gielgud is one of the all time greats

[gggordanus]

fuck!

[dinkarrao1]

i love godiva

[1hanamoon]

love marybeth

[LoftyProduction]

Or you could stfu and enjoy it for what it is, there's an idea?

[dinkarrao1]

hanamoon

[itisjinzo]

Big , fat chords <3

[MeskovicZ]

The teacher laugh when he snaps the string on Steinway is sooooo EPIC !!!!

[BenMcCormack91]

To any pianist, this scene is a little hilarious. No teacher ever talks like this, and Rachmaninov's third isn't exactly as horrifyingly-difficult as he makes it out to be. It's a tough piece, to be sure, but the way the teacher approaches it is really silly.

But you have to bend reality to service narratives I guess. As a musician, I hate when they bend musical practice. I know lawyers who get irritated about courtroom scenes, scientists who hate the pseudo-science in sci-fi.  It's life.

[AnnoyingLittleShit]

@BenMcCormack91 I'm a long way off even attempting this piece and I've got no doubt it's very difficult, but I think the way they made it seem like the hardest piece you could ever play is just to emphasise how he was pushed to his absolute limit and couldn't cope.

[BenMcCormack91]

@AnnoyingLittleShit Yeah, I know. As I said, a musician gets bugged by the way they twist it, but everyone else is pretty much fine with it.

[AnnoyingLittleShit]

@BenMcCormack91 I've been playing for 10 years (since i was 7) and I guess i did find it kind of irritating, but I understand why they did it. They had to emphasise that he was pushed far too much and he couldn't cope especially with signs of mental illness starting to manifest.

[BenMcCormack91]

@AnnoyingLittleShit I know. I was sort of half-making fun of them for exaggerating and half-making fun of my own mind for being so obtuse about it, :P

[artvscience]

@BenMcCormack91 not horrifyingly difficult? ok big shot, let's hear you play it then!!!

[BenMcCormack91]

@artvscience I never said the piece was easy. I said that this movie exaggerates its difficulty, if you read the context of the single phrase you extracted from what I said. In real life, learning piano music isn't exactly something I could imagine being turned into a montage sequence, and there's never a teacher blubbering silly things like "IT'S MONSTROUS MUSIC" or "Good, you broke a string!" That was my point. Fiction about things you know well is always disappointing; that was the point.

[vladimirhorowitz]

@BenMcCormack91 I'm a lifelong pianist and this scene was inspiring and very exciting for me. Not hilarious at all. Yeah, my teacher has never said anything about melodies jousting for supremacy but every teacher has their own style. As far as the Rach 3 being horrifyingly difficult, unless you're a prodigy...it kinda is. Not many pieces in the traditional classical repertoire match up to it in difficulty level. Prok 2, Islamey, a lot of Alkan and some others are only in its class.

[Vesivian]

@BenMcCormack91 Urm no. Rachmanioff's third is exactly as horrifyingly-difficult as he makes it out to be. Just take a look at the score.

[BenMcCormack91]

@Vesivian Your comment does nothing other than take one of my sentences and negate the linking verb. I can respond by explaining a little more of my perspective, but if you're going to disagree with me, give me information rather than verb conjugation.

My comment assumed a few things; chiefly, it assumed that if a player studies a piece methodically, identifies sections that are difficult and works on the techniques required to play them, learning any piece is just a matter of time.

[Vesivian]

@BenMcCormack91 Definitely not. There's a reason why it's considered as one of the hardest concerto's ever written of all time, just take a look at the ossia cadenza of the 1st movement, those huge chords... So what you are trying to say is that anyone who ''studies a piece methodically and so on'' will be able to play this work? How ridiculous.

[BenMcCormack91]

@Vesivian I know the score. I know the orchestration, I know the structure, I have sat at the piano and read through the whole thing multiple times, and I am, in fact, a pianist. The "huge chords" in the first cadenza aren't ever larger than a tenth, and the fast jumps between registers are a matter of coordination and mapping, which is a skill, not some magical ability you either have or don't have from birth. It's hard, but of course there's a method to learning it.

[BenMcCormack91]

@Vesivian Getting up to any given skill level - be it a skill level where you are comfortable with Bach inventions, or a skill level where you are comfortable with Rachmaninoff concerti, is always a matter of work. There's nothing magical about that. Give me enough time and I could teach any person in decent physical and mental health how to play the piano with control and accuracy. Getting someone to be creative about it is the hard part.

[Dragonsforever05]

I do not like the way David's dad treated him. At least some good came out of his abusive childhood.

[magnum13th]

@Dragonsforever05 "The film Shine has come in for strong criticism from Helfgott's siblings for a range of inaccuracies, particularly for the portrayal of his father as a tyrannical despot."

[ByCraZyBoY100]

that's great ı love this man

[LoftyProduction]

If you analyse this scene carefully, there are number of things that are used to display Davids state of mind. First of all the Cadenza itself that David plays is definately used to show his descent into madness, if you listen carefully to it of course. I'll let you find the rest.

[nrith]

best scene of the movie (and what a GREAT movie)

Thanks for uploading

[davidovich00]

haha it was awesome. I mean, Rachmaninov's third is one thing, but blindfolded? wtf?

[raggieful]

"Am I mad enough, professor?" Hahaha .... amazing!

[nmbanana]

why is it that the piano cadenza sounds better when the piano is out of tune?

[rl1416]

Steypustjori, the movie's ending credits says it was David Helfgott who played the Rach 3 for this film. This is one of the best Rach 3 1st mov't. cadenzas ever. It rivals that of Ashkenazy's which I think is also lovely.

[roshabones]

I had to be placed in a hospital's emergency ward for 3 months as a result of trying to play this. Every bone in my body was broken.

[LoftyProduction]

@roshabones LOL

[Vendetta5246]

Lol can you imagine that teacher teaching a kid like that( Its a monster! You have to tame the peice its a beast...etc) when the kid plays twinkle star :P

[asita887]

Beautiful movie, Noah Taylor is the great actor and the part 1:41-1:53 is very cute :-)

[AstraVex]

1:18 - I do that when I'm trying to figure out complex piano/guitar music.

Strengthens your fingers up nicely too :)

[PirateTrowel]

This film was the making of me, before I saw it I had no love for classical music. 12 years later I have attained a musical composition degree, teach piano, play the Rach 3- had too after seeing this!!!! and write music reviews- I love this films so much... and it cant just be me that it has transformed.

[pianomatteo]

@PirateTrowel i quit piano as a child and toward the end of high school i watched the movie with my mother and it changed my life. I started playing again, attended conservatory, and even though i am now a voice/choral education major I still play piano and adore it very much so. I am reading through this piece now for fun, but still have dreams of learning and performing it some day =D

[Dragonsforever05]

@PirateTrowel Well done:)

[Steypustjori]

Who is playing the piano in this marvelous scene?

[Martel211996]

With all due respect, I think this movie and part and the part where he performs is greatly EXAGGERATED. especially when he says "its dangerous,s people can get hurt". For crying out loud, this is a concerto, not a secret operative mission on Iraq. Lugansky learend this concerto in 4 days....4 days. IM not saying its easy. just it should not be this exaggerated.

[kinggimped]

@Martel211996 Within the context of David Helfgott's life it does not seem so exaggerated. The relationship with his father is all kinds of messed up, and it is through Rach 3 that David thinks he can salvage his father's respect and repair the relationship. To you it's just a piece of music, to him it was much more.

Obviously they dramatise it a little - IT'S A FILM - but it's the driving force behind his breakdown, so it's not an exaggeration of how much it meant to him. Watch the film again.

[TobiasMathe7]

@Martel211996

I tried playing this and I got hurt...bad :(

[RollaArtis]

Brilliant performance by Sir John Gielgud! Not sure about the music though.........

[bstct]

This is Rafael Orozco playing?

Whoever it is, how refreshing, actually, to hear this section played somewhere within the written rhythmic framework, at the alternating bass and treble duplets and at the triplets (fff - "big fat chords"), for example. As a bonus, you can actually hear the notes and harmonies. Too often "rubato" and "performer's license" take the form of utter rhythmic anarchy, resulting in a caricature, or an obliteration, of portions of the music.

[maulcs]

Don't you just love those big fat chords!

[sackwhacker]

@maulcs

yes I LOVE those BIG FAT CHORDS =D

[Rheostatik]

A bit of trivia regarding the music for this part of the movie:

This is the cadenza to the first movement. However Rachmaninoff was too "happy" with, believe it overshadowed the rest of the first movement, so he wrote a second cadenza, which is what most pianists now play.

This version, even though in the score it's labeled as the "ossia", is actually the original. Glad they chose the original for this section, as it's way more dramatic.

[monstrumwomen]

Considering this is an outstanding piece of music, I am amazed to see people saying it is not the most complicated piece to play (which is correct), but technically and texture wise it is a joy to listen to, and yes it may have been blown out of proportion, but I feel exhilarated when I listen to it. So STOP arguing over whats the hardest piece to play. The point of this movie is to take you on a journey throughout david helfgotts life, and for him it was a big achievement!!

[andrewzador]

A lot of people have no idea how Feux Follets supposed to be played. Others do, but still don't play it right (including myself), and that's because it requires not only flexible hands, but sophistication at the highest level when you can make a difference between putting 45 or 50 grams into your strike. This is what makes it the most difficult piece, not only the intervals and the extremely uncomfortable positions. I would say there are only 10 or 15 people in the world who could play it right.

[andrewzador]

The most difficult piece ever written for piano is Liszt: Feux Follets.

[sirglickness]

@andrewzador

Not even close. Sure, this piece by Rachmaninoff is exaggerated for the sake of the movie, and it gets annoying hearing everybody say Rach's 3rd piano concerto is the hardest thing ever because they saw this movie. Feux Follets being the hardest piece ever is not even close. The hardest pieces ever written are eccentric 20th century compositions by avant-garde composers. I'd suggest Iannis Xenakis's Synaphai if you want to hear something as close to impossible as it gets.

[deanclift]

@andrewzador

Mah...

[badareddine]

hhhhxd........

[jaycrazy12101]

it is difficult because of the huge chords the mans fingers were huge and the heart and soul you have to put in it to play it correctly to make it sound beutifull but who can argue what is the hardest or the best piece of music all the worlds a stage we are merrly players all music is beutifull it depends upon your level of crafstmanship

[Boudosaved]

Had the privilege of working on the legal contracts to finance this film when I interned at New Line Cinema back in 1996.

[Janya7]

Does anybody know which is the most difficult piece ever written? For piano

[DBEEZZYY]

It depends. Islamey, Scarbo from Gaspard de la Nuit, and the Petrouchka Transcriptions are all technically more difficult. But I guess it depends on the performer.

[emilioarroyomohamed]

The most difficult piece ever written is Opus Clavicembalisticum by Sorabji

[Falseproph3t]

Ohh i must listen to that one.

[mikkeljs]

@emilioarroyomohamed Sorabji wrote many other pieces that are far more difficult than Opus Clavicembalisticum. I think Opus Archimagicum and the 2nd Symphony for Orchestra (which was abandoned and left as a piano piece) are the two hardest pieces by Sorabji.

[prefix331]

@mikkeljs The Rach 3 is the strongest most difficult piece ever created. Opus Clavicembalisticum doesn't hold a candle to Sergey's Rach.

[mikkeljs]

@prefix331 I never said, that Opus Clavicembalisticum is more difficult than Rach 3. But I would certainly think that Alkan wrote far more difficult stuff than Rachmaninov.

[vladimirhorowitz]

@mikkeljs Just for the record, it's not exactly an "accomplishment" to write difficult stuff. I could write something more difficult than anything Sorabji wrote in about 5 minutes. It would involve a lot of 64th note chromatic runs...at ffff and in octaves. But so what? That doesn't make it good and Sorabji's stuff isn't good because it's difficult either. How many touring concert pianists put Sorabji on their program? Not many because nobody wants to hear that crap and I don't blame them.

[mikkeljs]

@vladimirhorowitz I dont give a shit about difficulty in music - but as a pianist its natural to be curious about it, when most of your life is devoted to become as good as possible, get the most challenge and healthy repertoir. When it comes to Sorabji, you are very wrong. Sorabji is interesting because of his musical genious, and he is in fact my favourite composer over Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninov etc. Sorabji is genious because he have the guts to screw all traditional forms and dogma,

[vladimirhorowitz]

@mikkeljs Well, nothing wrong with having a different opinion. I'm not one to tell someone not to like a composer, but I definitely think there's a good reason that nobody plays Sorabji in public. I've only heard a few pieces by him, which sounded loud, dissonant, and harsh to me. I don't know, maybe you know of a few that may change my mind. Although I have to say, the fact that you prefer him over all the greats says to me that you probably have a very different taste than most people.

[mikkeljs]

@vladimirhorowitz and he doesnt care about how it is received. He wrote music kean with his heart in total isolation and was extremely productive. If you actually look into the stuff, you will also discover the vastness of his natural sound language, his mature sence of harmonic disposition which is familiar with Scriabin, his love for random sound yet it isnt theorized as Astronische Musik or serialism but it is from an honest human life, a life of an exceptionally awakened isolated being

[foshizmaniz21]

this one for sure!! 43 pages of pure gold

[sirglickness]

@Janya7

See my post in response to Andrewzador.

[OrangeSodaKing]

Rach 3 isn't the most difficult piece written, but it is very difficult.

[curzmg]

It depends what you personally find difficult, I think most people would agree with you though. xXx

[luckyphilster]

muse

[JAYJAY1000000]

Fantastic scene, I love it when the teacher and his pupil sing along together

[lauritapily]

I LOVE this movie!

[cathy03]

ABSOLUTELY LOVED (and still do) THIS MOVIE!!! Highly recommend it.

[Vendetta5246]

i cant find it in any dvd store in my country

[posturex1]

great, could you play the clip where he plays flight of the bumblebee thanks for sharing

[chattychar]

oh my gosh, NOT THE RACH 3!!!!

[chocobosROK]

my chords are only chubby....

[17Paperclips]

LOVE IT!

[Rachmanomaniac]

Is this a real film?

[jijiandkiki]

It is a real movie inspired by a real life.

For music lovers and others.

[zinnia001]

learn it first, THEN forget it. Genius! (I mean that, not being sarky)

[GeetarAdam]

Yup. The same concept applies to all things in life. It is the essence of art. I learned it studying Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, but later found it in everything we do.

[FiatObscuritas]

@zinnia001 is really true , for all that we play some classic instrument, inconsciously we do that, but seeing the movie we realised it

[theshjt1]

@zinnia001 It's true. After I've learnt a piece about 2-3 months, I would say that I can't remember exactly the notes but I can play it fluently

[kvetmada]

genius awesome and wonderful

Rachmanninov and Helfgott

[Aneurismo]

inspiring...

[danielchong1234]

wow.that old teacher is so cool.i mean the way he speaks.going to be real cool if he teaches me.

[Senariusa]

@danielchong1234 Hes an actor dude, It's a movie.

[moviephoneguy]

yes i do love those big fat chords

[rebharath]

he broke the piano string?! cool.

[kane1368]

1:30 is the best bit

[XDemonix]

yea it is. its also one of the hardest parts. have you seen the score for that part?

[kane1368]

i don't really want to see the music for that cos i would explopde from just looking at it let alone reading it lol :)

[4ngry4nus]

yea, and unfortunately played that :P

[livekillers]

rach3 is so hard to interpret

[jmcae]

Rach 3 is just incredible...

btw sirglickness, this is just my opinion but even though decent graduate students can play this piece, can they play it well? Not only the piece is technically challenging but to play it musically well is extremely difficult too so I wouldn't consider this piece as such an easy piece. I respect this piece a lot and I just feel like you are saying it is something so ordinary.

[davidweiner23]

Do you know if this is actually Helfgott playing this cadenza?

[finlayma84]

no, it's rafael orozoco. And this is a fiendishly difficult piece, no matter what sirglickness says. Of course there are lots of graduate students running around who can play it; fingerbusters are everywhere, but that doesn't make the task of learning it any less formidable. Nothing to sneeze at to be sure. I do have to agree with you about the real helfgott's playing; schizophrenia and years away from the piano really took their toll. Wonderful movie, though; one of my favorites.

[vivipara]

rachmaninov la lleva!

[sirglickness]

I like this movie. However, I must note that just about every decent graduate student in piano can play this piece. There must be literally millions of people who can play this. And by the way, Helfgott's performance is considered awful.

[64wulf]

I like this movie. However, I must disagree that you are someone who thinks everything to be awfull if you think to say that about every decent graduate student can play rach 3 RIGHT this is not true but mabe you are right about helfgott lol :0

[Hydrophobia234]

Great movie!!!!Strongly recommend!