Riz Khan - Robert Fisk - 1 Oct 08 - Part 1

[gjohnson0116]

This guy is saying what conservatives have been screaming about for decades

[CharlesDickens99]

In Fisks latest book The Age of the Warrior, he writes this factual inaccuracy.

Shakespeare lived at a time when the largely Muslim Ottoman Empire then at the zenith of its power, remained an existential if not a real threat for Europeans.

In 1565, one year after the birth of Shakespeare (1564), the Turkish Ottomans besieged Malta and were defeated by the Knights Hospitallers of St John.

When Queen Elizabeth I heard of this she ordered all the church bells in Britain rung.

[alexanderwotl]

@CharlesDickens99 How is that an inaccuracy? They still posed a real threat to Europe (source: Historian).

[19996669991]

It is always refreshing to hear Fisk speak.

He makes the incredibly complex issues of the ME comprehensible and I buy The Independent just to read him.

[trollfinger]

Holy crap. CharlesDickens99 thinks that his facts about Fisk are correct ? He is on EVERY Fisk video taking things out of context.

[bushmusharraf]

Now the world Should realize that ISRAEL is the biggest perpetrator of HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION .

It rapes every constitution of UN made against its ruth less policies towards the innocent mankind .

AMERICA GOVT s/d stop unjust support of terrorist ISRAEL ..although its very unlikely to happen , as israel runs american GOVT .

American nation s/d boycott its Govt policies for the support of TERRORIST ISRAEL .

Peace for all except for the ZIONIST JEWS

[gjohnson0116]

@bushmusharraf

was that you cousin the other week running up to the cockpit and yelling Allahu Akbar? So, I take it that Israel's neighbors aren't the troublemakers then? I guess you'd like to see Israel destroyed, right? So, that muslims can have their land back? Is that where your going with this? Buddy, your argument is old and boring. YAWN,

[k1a1t1h1y1]

Isreal is impossible, they need to be made by USA to behave and go back to 1967 borders. Stop funding Isreal!!!!!!

[weeg91]

ive not lived long but this guys a legend in my eyes

[norhetoric1]

Right wingers hate to hear facts and reply with name calling.

It means they are hopeless

[bebeinpa]

HA HA HA-As usual, you lefty, have it exactly BACKWARDS.

[rrmoh]

another bitter jealous Brit... hey you didn't get to be born in the USA.. deal with it...

[yaz044]

didnt get to be born in the USA? wow i cant even begin to describe how thankful to have NOT been born in your shit hole of a country. Robert Fisk is not bitter or jealous, he is an incredible journalist who makes very good points and if you had read him you would know.

[pejvak1950]

anybody knows why in media they call President Obama and Ahamdinejad, or mohommer qadafe?

the Presidentsy is only said if that person is american in media?

[CharlesDickens99]

When President Obama spoke at the Al-Azhar University in Cairo, he omitted to mention that although Coptic Christians are forced to pay taxes to support it, they are not allowed to attend it. Fisk has also failed to mention this fact.

[Entaruadunexecutor]

Obama did not speak at Al Azhar University.

He spoke at Cairo University, where there are plenty of Coptic Christians in attendance.

Learn your facts before you spread bigotry.

[CharlesDickens99]

In the first line of Obamas speech he said it was hosted by two remarkable institutions, namely Al-Azhar and Cairo Universities.

The building he spoke in may have belonged to Cairo Uni.

If I got my facts slightly wrong I apologize. This is more than Robert Fisk does who never prints a retraction when he makes a factual error (he has made many.)

[BeholdZeus]

I love Robert Fisk. A big fan. But I'm afraid he's wrong about the Guardian's fair and objective reporting. It's important to remember that Johann Hari, for example, was once a strong supporter of the Iraqi invasion; and, interestingly, most - if not all of his sources - were drawn from officialdom. Hari has apologized since then, but the point remains.

[haroon420]

who cares what that obnoxious man/boy thing johann hari thinks?? i hate his style of reporting and others like him who have seemed to pop up everywhere in various broadsheets!!

[ballsauce666]

Fisk is no match for Fox News's honesty and accuracy - CNN's extensive study of the issues or NPR's objective view on topics...

BUA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

that was a joke - a very large joke.

[Enes007]

damn im still laughing:)

[demyansk2000]

HAhaha! I started reading this and thought 'what a tosser!.... until I realised.' A very good joke!

[bebeinpa]

What a liar-fisk repeats the canard that only "poor" kids are fighting in Iraq. He accuses only American newspapers of bias-i.e. control by Jews, while his papers Independent, Reuters, and French rags only print the truth. NO BOB, they only print what you want to hear.

[bebeinpa]

Fisk has so distorted history through his own biases I fail to see why anyone listens to him.

[peymaania]

Is your middle name Hadassa by any chance?

[bebeinpa]

No, jew-baiter, it's not.

[peymaania]

Touche ...Mothah Fuckah!

[roarkpickles]

In 1937, Roosevelts U.S. State Departments European Division argued that fascisms rise was a natural response of the rich and middle classes to the threat posed by dissatisfied masses, who, with the example of the Russian Revolution before them, might swing to the left. Fascism, the State Department argued, must succeed or the masses, this time reinforced by the disillusioned middle class, will again turn to the left.

[myaser88]

ths man speaks alot of sense!

YAWMA FILASTINE!

[Batavian187]

He thinks he has seen bloodshed by watching peoples limbs torn off and bodies piled.

But he hasn't been in Poland or Russia during the Nazi blitz.

And he hasn't been in Rotterdam when it was bombed off the map.

He has no idea of the power and will of a peoples to live in freedom and to resist tyranny.

[duck9382]

ur post does not relate to the video.

[CharlesDickens99]

The spread of Islam was perhaps the biggest and bloodiest act of imperialism the world has ever seen. The ideology which fuelled these conquests, Islamism, is being revived, in fact, it never really went away.

[Katharsis2006]

Hmm.... Do you have any numbers to prove this? You used the word "fact"... Let's see some. And hopefully when you provide it, let's compare the numbers to the European wars.

[CharlesDickens99]

60 million people died in the Second World War. According to some estimates, the Muslim wars against India gave a death toll of 70 million over a period from 7th Century to 17th. Read the opinion of historian Will Durant.

Hindus are not people of the book and so are treated even worse than Jews or Christians. Google Hugh Fitzgerald telling the truth about India.

[roarkpickles]

What about the spread of Christianity? What about the Slave Trade which killed 100 million? What about the conquest of North America which possibly killed up to 150 million of the indigenous population? You are an anti-Christ and a bigot.

[fralo86]

do u really want to get into the question who killed more?

because we, the christians, are surely far ahead of the muslims. shall we mention the innumerable religious wars and slaughters in europe, the massacre of entire peoples in america (read bartolomé de las casas) the colonial expeditions "to spread the christian values" (in the words of Leopold of Belgium- who killed 2-3 millions zairians).

[Dalambam]

"shall we mention the innumerable religious wars and slaughters in europe, the massacre of entire peoples in america (read bartolomé de las casas) the colonial expeditions "to spread the christian values" (in the words of Leopold of Belgium- who killed 2-3 millions zairians)."

Actually I think the death toll of the spread of Christianity in Zaire is estimated to be somewhere between 8 and 20 million (half the population was exterminated).

[Dalambam]

In the Americas, it's between 50 and 100 million deaths (95% population decrease as a result of the Christian invasion). Also check out stuff like the Albigensian Crusade (just one random episode of the peaceful spread of Christianity in Europe).

[fralo86]

the "conversion by the sword theory" about india has been largely dismissed by recent (from 1950 onwards) studies of population growth (the pop. of india grew by 35 millions between 1000 and 1600- a pattern hardly compatible with the scale of the killings described by Durant), economic growth, genetics (muslim pop.), location of muslim communities (widespread in southern india, indochina and indonesia, untouched by the conflicts- which touched mainly northern india). read digby and maddison.

[bebeinpa]

Very true-Islam's enslavement of blacks being a fact that's never mentioned.

[hamidious]

WTF are you talking about? Are you trying to make sense?

[handofsutekh]

@bebeinpa Never mentioned? UK media, historians & papers mention it quite often

[Batavian187]

It's nice to know Robert Fisk wasn't around when we were dealing with the "German world" and the "Nazi" peoples.

And how the Nazi's just wanted some bits and pieces of human rights off the Western shelves, but that the answer should be all non-Nazi's out of Europe.

He understands the clash which is Islam and the democratic free West.

Yet he swings the flag of surrender something he isn't even allowed to do knowing what his parents went through.

[CharlesDickens99]

Wow! Someone with common sense.

Robert Fisk understands very little about Islam. An informed observer would know that Arabs are indigenous to one country in the world, the Arabian Peninsula, now known as Saudi Arabia. Virtually every county which became Arabic ( or indeed Islamic) became so due to military invasion. This huge exercise in Arab Imperialism should be kept in mind when listening to the endless accusations of imperialism Fisk charges the West with.

[Mat1913]

You're right, the Arabs did spread outside Saudi Arabia, about 900 to 1000 years ago. Plus, you seem to forget it was after WWI when the westerners split the Middles East into different countries like Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Kuwait. US imperialism brought down the government of Iran in 1953 and helped the Baath Party come to power in the earlier 1960's. I think that's that kind of imperial mentality for capitalism that we need to focus on.

[fralo86]

most of europe and of the western world became christian through military invasion. and btw, most of the muslim world was converted through peaceful means(or more peaceful means than those used by the christians). the turks willingly converted to islam, so did the persians, and the tartars(the arabs surely didn't have the strength to forcefully convert them). and until recently arabs had been way more tolerant (christian and jewish communities flourished in muslim countries, rarely the contrary)

[CharlesDickens99]

It is nonsense to state that most of Europe became Christian through military invasion. Christianity came to Britain via St Augustine who travelled from Rome, landing near Canterbury. He gained many converts without violence including the King. According to historian Bede it was the King's policy "to compel no man to embrace Christianity"

[fralo86]

Europe is a bit bigger than England: the pacific conversion of Britain was an EXCEPTION. What about Constantine's forced conversion of Italy after Ponte Milvio, or Charlemagne and the Saxons in Germany, or the Teutons in Poland, or Charlemagne and the Avars, or the Tsar and it forced conversion of Russia, or the wars between christians and pagans in Scandinavia?

you seem to look at history from a very ideological point of view. things are a little more complex, i'm afraid.

[CharlesDickens99]

There are several million people buried in the Catacombs under Rome which date to a time BEFORE Constantine made Christianity a legal religion in 312 AD. Christianity was a strong movement before an Emperor accepted it. There was no forced conversion after Ponte Milvio, this is absolute nonsense. Incidentally, Christianity spread through Russia mostly through the influence of Eastern Orthodox Church.

[fralo86]

1) there are not several MILLIONS buried under rome, but tens of thousands(italy at the time had just 6 millions inhabitants, they would have noticed millions getting killed

2) after Ponte Milvio there WERE forced conversions (we have edicts of the roman imperial chancellery). and later the edict of thessaloniki made pagans into second class citizens (all careers closed, only servitude (colonatus) left as an option, no legal rights (inheritance etc.)-accompanied by massacres, expecially in Gaul

[fralo86]

btw, even though historians do not have a consensus on the proportions of the repression of pagan religiosity after the Edict of Milan in 313 (the more lenient say it was a fiscal pressure backed by threat of forced- rarely used- others, mention Teophanes' description of temples razed to the ground and clerics killed), there is NO CONTROVERSY over the violence used by Theodosius to enforce the Nicean orthodoxy, the slaughter of the arian heretics, the mass -forced- conversions in teh countryside

[CharlesDickens99]

Mohammed said If someone changes their religion kill them. Did Jesus say such a thing? Nope. Mohammed said Islam gave non-believers 3 choices: conversion, death or dimmitude. Did Jesus say such a thing? Nope. Abuses of power have occurred in Christianity despite the teachings of Christ whereas abuses of power that happened within Islam were fully integral to the teachings of Mohammed.

[fralo86]

nice speech, it would be interesting if it was any relevant.

1)- you forgot to mention that the christian doctrine is not just the word of jesus but also the word of god in the old testament (which didn't give the third option of dimmitude to infidels, simply conversion or death)

2)- the abuses of christianity were fully consistent with the old testament and part of the new one (st. paul was not so kind hearted, was he?)

[CharlesDickens99]

Fundamentalist Islam gives unbelievers 3 options: conversion, dimmitude or death. It is a total distortion to say Christianity does the same, there is no equivalent command in Christian scriptures. Christ clearly said he fulfilled Old Testament so bloodthirsty bits were superseded. Christ said I want mercy not sacrifice. Matthew 12:7

[srebrenika]

christianity does not teach blindly following after human leaders, but it most certainly has been corrupted by a long stream of corrupted individuals in religion and politics since the year it was founded. Christianity in practice is a religion of love but it has been seriously undermined and distorted to the point of horrific slaughter in two world wars. Can you blame non-christians for seeing such inconsistencies of faith as being nothing less than hypocrasy to the highest degree?

[fralo86]

and the thought that MAYBE religious views evolve (islam today is hardly that of seven centuries ago) and that they are often a cover for more mundane and political agendas didn't cross your mind, right? u never thought that maybe if the france and the ottoman empires were able to ally against the catholic absburgs, that if the sunni and shia can cooperate against israel, maybe the "jihad" is just the facade? that maybe the world is not black or white, as it may seem to your bidimensional mind?

[CharlesDickens99]

All four principal Sunni schools of jurisprudence, the Shafii, Maliki, Hanafi and Hanbali schools, agree on the importance of jihad warfare against non-Muslims. These ancient teachings have never been reformed or rejected. Al-Azhar University in Cairo today supports this interpretation. i.e. for Mulsims warfare is obligatory against non-believers. The 'gates of ijtihad (interpretation)' closed more than a millennium ago, the teachings are unalterable.

[fralo86]

Muhammad ash-Shafi, founder of the Shafi'i, wa limited this offensive jihad against pagan Arabs only, not permitting it against non-Arab non-Muslims

Javed Ahmad Ghamidi believes that after Muhammad and his companions, there is no concept in Islam obliging Muslims to wage war for propagation or implementation of Islam. The only valid basis for military jihad is to end oppression when all other measures have failed. Islam only allows jihad to be conducted by a government

[fralo86]

3) i didn't deny that christianity was spread ALSO through peaceful means - i contested your statement that it was spread MAINLY through peaceful means (while the barbarous muslims could only convert through force, right?)

4) btw, the russian princes (like Vladimir I in Kiev) forced- brutally- the people to convert because they saw the orthodox church as an instrumentum regni (because at the time the head of the church happened to be the PRINCE- aka "cesaropapism"- and every rebel an heretic)

[fralo86]

but even admitting your theory that islam is inherently violent while christianity was sometimes (very often, actually) misinterpreted by its followers. DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE TO THE MILLIONS OF VICTIMS OF THE WARS OF RELIGION? a religion affects your life not simply for what its prophet or holy book states, but for how it is interpreted in reality. and in reality christians can hardly pretend to hold the moral high ground...

[fralo86]

this conversation is going nowhere.if you actually believe that the palestinians bomb because mohammed said so and not for political reasons,or that bin laden attacks the west because he wants to establish a world caliphate and not as an expedient to get what he actually wants i.e.the overthrow of the house of Saud,IF YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE PEOPLE KILL SOLELY BECAUSE BEARDED MEN TOLD THEM TO THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO,than you're either naive or malicious,and there's little point reasoning with you

[ATMleb]

sorry to dissapoint you but most studies show otherwise, DNA test prove that most people in arab nation where descendants of indigenous people that where there before Islamic invasion.

and who are you to understand Islam more then Robert Fisk? the guy lived in the middle east for many years.

[CharlesDickens99]

It is true that many people in these countries are decendents of indigenous population before Arabic/Muslim invasion. Most were originally Christian, they converted to escape the status of a Dhimmi - a second-class citizen in an Islamic Society, who had to pay a special tax, Jizha. Robert Fisks work contains lots of factual errors he is actually quite ignorant of Middle-East history prior to the 20th Century.

[fralo86]

not to talk about the forced christianization of sub-saharian africa and the new world. btw, in the middle age we did have a sort of Dhimma in europe (ever heard of the Jews?) and muslims were generally not allowed to live in christian countries (with few and transitory exceptions). btw, the Ottoman empire in the half of XVI century was (openly) allied with France. i doubt the French rung bells at their defeat, maybe they were too busy slaughtering protestants in the name of the lord.

[CharlesDickens99]

In Fisks latest book The Age of the Warrior, he writes this factual inaccuracy.

Shakespeare lived at a time when the largely Muslim Ottoman Empire then at the zenith of its power, remained an existential if not a real threat for Europeans.

In 1565, one year after the birth of Shakespeare (1564), the Turkish Ottomans besieged Malta and were defeated by the Knights Hospitallers of St John.

When Queen Elizabeth I heard of this she ordered all the church bells in Britain rung.

[CharlesDickens99]

Personally I dont think Pakistans dictators are imposed on them by the West.

They are home-grown Im afraid.

[jammoexii]

Fiskie you're my hero!

[aparytai]

Pakistani are smart people! they don't deserve the government, they don't deserve the security forces? what does it mean?

[mxpxjf]

He means they have a corrupt and incompetent government, as well as a notorious security force (probably referring to the ISI) that constantly undermines prospects for peace and that Pakistani people deserve better in both respects.

[hasankhalid]

you alomost had it right, i lived in pakistan. what he meat was that we(westerners) need to stop imposing dictators on them. we have done that since the 60s.

[ballaamir]

Superb guest, I've read much of his work. Good job AJE.