Mexico & the Virgin of Guadalupe: Goddess or Trick?

[RapidBeastFire]

Mryoda shutup please. You obviously don't believe than why are u watching these videos. I feel sorry for you you are lost and ur just trying to find answers.

[ThePedrosanta]

The Black Madonna prayer blog at wordpress.

[yellowfellow]

its obviously a lie created by the spanish

if you cant see that, when its known that the spanish murdered millions of people in mexico then you're in complete denial

[jgcase]

The Virgin of Guadalupe: Goddess or Trick? NEITHER! She's the mother of Jesus, sent by God to witness to the Aztecs, first, and then to all of the Americas.  Both have a specific part in His plan for humanity, and He sent her to prepare us.

[mryoda]

First prove that Jesus actually existed, and there is a god. Good luck with that.

[jgcase]

Based simply on human observation of the entirety and intricacy of creation, I think the burden of proof is upon YOU to prove that God does NOT exist, rather than my needing to establish that He does. And, there is far more objective, authentic, historical documentation confirming Jesus's existence than there is for Julius Caesar's, e.g., in the writings of the Jewish historian, Josephus. Or do you doubt Caesar's existence, too?

You should do your own library/online search. Good luck with THAT.

[mryoda]

there are two roman historians that wrote about a dude called jesus, the other hundreds of historians didn't talk about him. and besides most of the writings about jesus were years after his death.

IF you claim there is a god, a jesus, a virgin of guadalupe, or a pokemon show evidence... it is the responsibility of the person claiming something to prove his/her claim, not the other way around.

In other words, if I believe in unicorns, can you prove me there are no unicorns?

[jgcase]

And how many wrote about Julius Caesar?

[mryoda]

I haven't studied Julius cesars so I won't lied to you.

Still that doesn't prove the existence of your imaginary friends. Show some evidence.

[loco039]

The Gaudalupe is no real, it was story invented for the europens.

[OriamendiMexico]

How about NASA's studies?

Do those mean anything?

No paint, no dyes, no sign of brush strokes.

NASA's scientists could not figure out how the image existed on the tilma's fabric.

Fabric that was crafted from cactus fibers, a fabric that doesn't last more than 20 or so years.

...but has somehow (miraculously?) survived nearly 500 years. NASA found no signs of preservatives!

The fabric is very rough, yet on the side the image is on, its like silk?!

Science couldn't explain it, miracle?

[gusb232]

Didnt they reproduce a similar fabric using sun bleaching? Painting onto a peace of glass and lying over the fabric it in the sun?

Not only has the garment survived 500 yrs but holes in the garment Miraculously repair themselves every few years. An we know the garment cant be reproduced.... opps,

[OriamendiMexico]

Just a few things to take note of:

She's not a goddess. Mary is the highest of saints, but not a figure of worship. None except God is worshipped in the Catholic faith.

And shame on those that spread the rumor that we worship saints. We ask them to intercede for us, to pray for us.

"Pray" means "ask", (example: "Pray tell, what time is it?") We are asking saints to pray to God for us. Its like asking a fellow Christian to pray for you.

[J25x]

Imma get my a tattoo of the virgen de la guadelupe on my arm, with the mexican flag to the side.

badass

[gusb232]

Tonantzin Was a so deeply ingrained into the life of mesoamerica for over 3 Thousand years.

Why do you think she Should have disapeared?

Although The simalarities between the two religions did help usher the 'meztizaje'.

Why Do Christians assume Diego saw the mother of jesus on the hill and not his mother goddes Tonantzin.

[OriamendiMexico]

This "goddess" would have demanded human sacrifice as were the religions of the Meso-American peoples.

Our mother Mary appeared as she most likely looked like in life, brown skinned: ARABIC!

In case anyone's forgotten, Christ, Mary, the apostles, and most Biblical figures were from the Middle East, from the region where people typically had brown skin. The Semites, in fact, include the Arabic peoples.

[gusb232]

So your saying ,Whether Mary Looked like the Goddess , or the Goddess looked like Mary; they are the same person and indistinguishable?

Besides the fact that a Christianized Tona would have allowed Meso-Americans to continue to worship Her with out being burned at the stake, As she clearly is the object of such biblically unjustified to sinful amounts of adoration and worship to this day.

[OriamendiMexico]

How could you possibly come to that conclusion?

Mary was not that goddess. The natives at the time of Spanish colonization lived away from the colonial towns of the Spanish. Heretics were burned at the stake for feigning Catholicism, pagans were not burned at the stake, I don't know where you obtained such information.

The manner of worship that the natives had at the time required humans sacrifices, which was most definitely not something any sane human would allow to continue.

[gusb232]

Are you saying the Americans that refused to convert were allowed to Live? (Fact Millions were killed) And yes Most natives Fled Spanish Colonization Only a few extreamly remote villiages survive today.

If you are found Worshiping other Gods The Bible Commands your Death this is fact.

Im no expertbut I have taken a few Athro. and Chicano Studies classes on Ancient MesoAmerica.

I assume you get your history from Mel Gibson?

But I am NOT Argueing that Any Religion was Moral or true,you are.

[OriamendiMexico]

Millions were killed? Says who? What reliable historian would dare make such a preposterous claim?

In case you didn't read, the Spanish (who only brought a couple hundred troops) didn't bring down the Aztec Empire on their own. The Aztecs had plenty of enemies, people the Aztecs had oppressed, used in human sacrifice, taken as slaves, etc.

[gusb232]

Yes Millions of AMERICANS were killed, the Population of the Americas was in the Millions, and it was destroyed by Mostly people that believed themselfs to be Goood Christians.

You have a stereotypical view of Aztec Soceity, Regardless Most Americans were NOT aztecs, they suffered the same fate.

[OriamendiMexico]

Diseases, it was unavoidable.

Besides looking back the colonists from Northern European countries were the ones killing off natives (England).

Spain, Portugal and France intermarried and converted the natives. Heck to this day, the lands that THEY settled still have higher native populations than those settled by the English and Americans.

[OriamendiMexico]

No, I don't get my information from Gibson's movie. I'm Mexican American and I have an uncle who's a teacher of history in a university in Mexico, he provides me with history books they use down there and alot of it is propaganda that the Mexican government uses to avoid responsibility for alot things wrong with the country.

"Blame the US, blame the Church, blame this, blame that, etc."

Its nothing but another steamvalve used by an oppressive regime to avoid the lid from blowing up on them.

[gusb232]

The university of Mexico is part of the Mexican goverment! So you just undermined your own arguement.

My Chicano studies Professor Also happened to be catholic, And he Agreed that what the Chruch did was Very wrong, But so What If he Was an Atheist that wouldnt change any facts.

[OriamendiMexico]

???

When did I quote the University of Mexico?

I said my uncle worked in a university IN Mexico (the state capital of Durango to be exact). And I also said I disagreed with the books he provided.

[OriamendiMexico]

Cafeteria Catholicism.

[OriamendiMexico]

The Bible commands? This isn't the Old Testament anymore.

And guess what? The natives had no better ally than the Church, even to this day. There is no greater fighter for the rights of the natives. You hear alot of lies in places of learning, yet when traveling to these places you can't help but notice the Mexican government is trying to take everything these people have (land, resources) and sell it off to the highest bidder. And the Church is the only force to help them.

[gusb232]

Yes the Bible Commands These Things.And I have news For you Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine and the Conquistadors had Read the new Testament and they were able to Square it with the torture and murder of pagan savages. (Read Mat 5:18)

Thank God modern doctrines of Grace obscure these passages and we no longer burn people at the stake.

And I will be the last person to defend the Mexican Corupt-o-ment.

You may argue that Natives a have better lives today, this does not negate All past violence!

[OriamendiMexico]

Violence is justifiable under certain circumstances, but quit blaming the Church for the Spanish military's actions.

The violence of the past? How is executing criminals bad? 1531, the year of the apparition. Between 1531 and 1521 the year the Spanish took Mexico, ten years can you cite any unjust treatment by the Church of the natives? No only by the Spanish military. (Cortes was no saint, he limped from jumping out a window of a married woman's bedroom)

[OriamendiMexico]

???

Matt 5:18? What does that have have to do with anything?

"For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. "

[gusb232]

You Stated that the Old testament directives to kill those of other religions no longer applied. When it was infact the chruch that gave the Cortez then Moral authority and support. Im only giving the chruch Blame for the Violence they Supported with biblical claims. Yes they Killed criminals as well, So What! We should still call a Spade a Spade.

[OriamendiMexico]

Cortes or Cortez?

[DawnInTexas]

Juan Diego's tilma, with the Miraculous Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, should have disintegrated loooooong ago.

My favorite part of this image is the 'snapshot' image in her eye.

I thank God for this 'little piece of Heaven.' I love His mother...I'm sure He loves her more than we could begin to imagine!

He is Love, Itself.

[ijrijrijr]

God has no mother but i see you have blind faith.

[katerict]

is Jesus is your God?

Luke 1:43:

"But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

[katerict]

John 19:25-27

25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother."

[DawnInTexas]

Jesus and Mary, when they appear to people in the world, look like the people of the region. That way, they can relate to them.

For those who do not like a certain people of the world, I wonder if, at their Judgment, Christ appears like the people they have discriminated against.

All are in the image and likeness of God.

[sesaw7]

Yo pienso que la virgen morena fue propaganda española para convertir a los indigenas de ese siglo...pero la Fe es lo que importa asi que ya que importa...

[rhs2000us]

Jeremiah 7:18 - The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

[rhs2000us]

Jeremias 7:18 - Los hijos recogen la leña, y los padres encienden el fuego. Las mujeres amasan la masa para hacer tortas a la Reina del Cielo y para derramar libaciones a otros dioses, para ofenderme.

[rhs2000us]

Exodo 20:

4 No te harás imagen, ni ninguna semejanza de lo que esté arriba en el cielo, ni abajo en la tierra, ni en las aguas debajo de la tierra.

5 No te inclinarás ante ellas ni les rendirás culto, porque yo soy Jehovah tu Dios, un Dios celoso que castigo la maldad de los padres sobre los hijos, sobre la tercera y sobre la cuarta generación de los que me aborrecen.

6 Pero muestro misericordia por mil generaciones a los que me aman y guardan mis mandamientos.

[rhs2000us]

Exodus 20:

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

[rick664ath]

que asco, la virgen es para los indios ineducados y analfabetos

[moroandres123]

And what makes you say that?(wait your english sucks)

Porque dices eso?