The Secret of Our Organ's 32-ft. Trombone

[PolyphonicTheory]

A wonderful demonstration of using what you have resourcefully. :)

[organist1982]

I'm an organist, too; this is very interesting! I also play wind instruments, and I'm wanting to find a way to be able to play my clarinet into a device like your harmonist in order to have it pitched down an octave in real-time. Do you know of any software or devices currently available that would allow me to do this?

[theremin137]

@organist1982 - well, the only thing I can think of is to play the clarinet into a microphone that runs through an effects pedal and then out through an audio system. Boss makes a pedal called the Super Octave Pedal -- which can double down one or two octaves, or both. That pedal might work with the clarnet. But I will say, I didn't get very good success using one with the pipe organ. Not sure why, but it just didn't have the kind of "oomph" that the Harmonist pedal does.

[crohnsappleadams]

@theremin137 The reason for this is that the two pedals operate in very different ways. The Harmonist produces a modification of the original waveform, whereas the Octave/Super Octave pedals identify the pitch and produce a note one and/or two octaves lower using a very simple synthesizer. For certain instruments (i.e. electric guitar), the Octave lends a certain thickness that doesn't exist in the original source's waveform. The organ already has that thickness, so the Harmonist works better.

[ds1868]

Very interesting and informative. It's understandable that, through cost and even lack of space, the 'real thing' may not be possible. I also suspect that the 'synthesised ' option may be just as convincing as the 'cheap route' of half length resonators. Thanks for posting this!

[Gazdatronik]

What? People take umbrage to this? As a synthesizer guy, I think this is great. I grew up on a '75 Casavant Frères at the local church. This reminds me of my own trials, trying to get my old Roland JX-3P to do pedal convincingly. It ends up needing about 10 pounds of EQ and the second oscillator tuned to god knows what interval to get some overtones in there.

It ain't right, but it's close, and it'll still enough bass to blow up a house.

And yours sounds better than mine.....

[sailing19100]

very innovative and clever.

[Offshoreorganbuilder]

All very interesting a clever, but not for me, I'm afraid. I still prefer the real thing.

[theremin137]

@Offshoreorganbuilder Well bully for you! I too prefer the real thing. But lacking the real thing, my interim solution is better than nothing.

[Offshoreorganbuilder]

@theremin137 "Our food ain't good, but it's cheap, and their's plenty of it!"

[theremin137]

@Offshoreorganbuilder  Ask a starving person sometime which would better -- to have cheap food or none at all.

You've made your point; go play with your bow ties now.

[Offshoreorganbuilder]

@theremin137 A touch, a palpable touch!  Sorry to hear you were starving, I had no idea. I shall, indeed, go and play with my bow ties, and leave you to your theremin.

[crohnsappleadams]

@Offshoreorganbuilder "There's", not "their's". If you're gonna be a snob, you have to at least spell correctly.

[corfu007]

i don't know how to play but wish I could! Been fascinated with the pipe organ and its workings since I was a kid. Your videos and narrations are quite interesting. My parish has from what I learned recently, a 42 rank, 2000 pipe , Peragallo organ. Given those numbers, what would it be considered sizewise?

Luckily our main organist / Music DIrectress, has a fine arts/music background and actually really knows how to play. Handel and Bach sound great on it!

[MelosAntropon]

A 42 rank instrument in this day and age would be considered "medium" sized - but a fairly big "medium". It's very subjective, of course, and the purists will have their own views, but I look from the standpoint of practicality and cost in modern organ building. When you reach , say, 52-55 ranks, you're genuinely talking about a large instrument. Hope that helps.

[gondolacrescent5]

You're having fun, you're learning and teaching what you know. My hat-off to you! (without any patronizing)

How did you manage to inferface your set-up with the organ?

I notice the console's a 3 m. Casavant from the late 1950's. You have 3 (not the usual 2) expression pedals and Crescendo. Are all 3 manual divisions under expression?

Is the console still pneumatically controlled? I don't see anything to suggest added electronic memory--thus the extra questions...

[theremin137]

I explain how the interface works in the video - the organ chambers are miked, and the miked channel for the pedal is directed through the Harmonist pedal.

And yes, the organ is fully enclosed. Thus, its flexibility and versatility are greatly enhanced. This was an excellent design decision in this instance -- and probably would be a good choice with many other smaller instruments as well.

[gondolacrescent5]

oops, I didn't watch the video...sorry!

It's funny. By 1960 Casavant were building some two manual organs without any expression. I've tuned one. (horrible). The extra added cost of enclosing the Great division is significant and it's surely one of the reasons it's seldom done anymore.

I'm familiar with a N.A. builder and distributor of digital and hybrid organs. I'll send him the You Tube video you made.

best for 2010.

[hootinouts]

The Boss Harmonizer is apparently a polyphonic effect pedal from what I heard here. I own a Boss Octaver and it is a monophonic effect. If I play chords through it the sound is muddy and distorted.

[hootinouts]

Nothing wrong with what you are doing. Lots of Pipe organs use Midi to extend the range down to 32'. With Midi anyone can have include a 64' Diaphone Profunda like in Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City NJ to their stop list.

[User846]

genius!!!!!11

[User846]

Great sound! What mic positions you use? if not ambient mic i say connect a ambient mic and solo it on the mixer and make a video with the harmonist :)

[theremin137]

The mics are all Shure wide-dynamic-range vocal mics so yes, they are ambient. There are mics both inside and outside the expression shutters, although i've found the most effective ones are the ones outside the shutters.

[helloitsmelol097]

@theremin137 I can see how the ones outside would help just because the pipes could blend together better there, Also when the shutters are closed it is good to be able to notice the difference

[theaterpipe1]

Well no wonder! That was rather interesting to learn about how the 32' Trombone!

[Tattookub]

The effects pedal, "Boss Harmonist", although not cheap can still be found on Ebay.

[kerry5101971]

Pretty nifty! You're the mad scientist of music. = )

[User846]

amazin

[jopinglu]

I wonder if you could double down the output of the speakers again, making it 64'?

[Polybun]

Heh, you should try an mxr blue box on it.

[fatbarry2000]

I'm disappointed with these people claiming what you're doing is wrong. I'm in the UK, and quite familiar with extension and unification - not new ideas, and surely they're just as 'bad' as amplification?

The organ at the Philharmonic Hall in Liverpool has quite a few extended ranks, and borrowing between manuals too. Not to mention the sub and super extensions on the choir div.

The organ fits in chambers either side of the stage and is played for classical and cinema work.

...continued...

[fatbarry2000]

I'm disappointed with these people claiming what you're doing is wrong. I'm in the UK, and quite familiar with extension and unification - not new ideas, and surely they're just as 'bad' as amplification?

The organ at the Philharmonic Hall in Liverpool has quite a few extended ranks, and borrowing between manuals too. Not to mention the sub and super extensions on the choir div.

The organ fits in chambers either side of the stage and is played for classical and cinema work.

...continued...

[RLcoolJ9]

I have tried this on my organ...works well with one note, but when I actually play anything, i get everything an octave down and it sounds absolutely awful. Any suggestions?

[theremin137]

If you are using it in the Pedal to double the bottom octave of 16-foot stops, those pipes have to be fairly isolated and the mics have to be pretty close to them. Otherwise, yes, the tones from all the pipes will be picked up and it will be a mess. In our organ, the largest pipes are against the back wall of the Pedal and Great chamber. One mike is on a short stand about 3 feet in front of the mouths of the Principals, and the other one is suspended above the tops of the lowest reeds.

[RLcoolJ9]

I tried this with my organ...how do you keep from getting a 32 foot tone on every note and having everything become extremely muddy? Works quite well with single notes, but sounds terrible when I try to play anything. Any suggestions?

[theblackhand2]

Hey what ever works. Granted noting replaces real pipes, I say "What ever gets the job done." esp. given the tight budgets of many churches and today's bad economy.

[Fergophone]

That's really neat and a great way to expand an instrument. The cost would be staggering to do it in real pipes anyway. What kind of sound system and speakers are you running it through?

[theremin137]

VANS™ black & white checkerboard slip-ons.

See tinyurl(dot)(com)(slash)cujkbt­.

(No, these are not my Sunday morning console footwear!)

[dirtydeeds73]

OMG I WANT THOSE SHOES!

[iqi616]

I think these enhancements are pretty cool. Notre Dame de Paris has MIDI so I don't see anything wrong with you adding electronics to this instrument. Many organs are developed "beyond their designers' intentions" - often over a period of centuries. Most of the greatest organ builders learnt their craft by restoring and augmenting existing instruments. So, keep up the good work! Just don't add anything that sounds like a DX7 "mallet" patch okay! :)

[deluzon]

For a churchman you use a hard language! It's not contempt. I also have no intention to go to the north pole, also without any contempt. What I wanted to say is, no one with with respect and good taste would do that to an old pipe organ. And don't tell me that the congregation can't hear the organ. Again you would tell me, 'you are not here, how can you say that ?' You probably want to shake the congregation with your organ sound - and that was not intended by the builder of this instrument.

[theremin137]

Your ongoing quibbling only proves my point -- that you criticize things, people, places, without any basis whatsoever. You have never met me, you have not heard the organ in the church, you know nothing about my church, you could not possibly know the "organbuilder's intentions," yet you have uninformed opinions on all of these! There is no point in going back and forth, so this discussion is hereby ended.

[deanopain]

Well said.

[deluzon]

What would you call this poor instrument then? A hybrid? But that's our time, especially in America.

[theremin137]

With all due respect, your remark does not make any sense. And what does my being American have to do with it? It's easy for non-Americans to make judgments about our country, based on what they see on TV, even when they live many thousands of miles away and have probably never even been here.

[deluzon]

That's only your opinion. Yes, America is a great nation and some countries have to thank America for becoming democracies, but, and I'm not alone with my opinion, the American's have a deplorable taste, everything has to be big, then it's ok. Yes, I have never been in America and I have no intention to go there.

[theremin137]

"Yes, I have never been in America and I have no intention to go there."

-------

That is called, in certain circles, "Contempt prior to investigation."

Furthermore, the enhancement of our Casavant organ was not to make it bigger, but to make it HEARD. If you read my comments that introduce this video, you would have noted that the organ is very much undersized for the large auditorium it's in. By amplifying and expanding it, it now has much more presence in the room. Sorry if you disapprove.

[y11971alex]

come on. real 32 foot stops really is huge.

you need at least 40 foot roof to fit it in, it also costs a lot of money to build!

if the owner of the organ do have nither of these, this is a good way to enhance this organ!

[Cindermakers]

Not if it's stopped, and they may bend and go horizontally at a carefully calculated point.

[y11971alex]

So where do you place them?

under the congregation bench ?

[JimmieBluffdweller]

I don't think 'such a thing' has been 'done' to this organ. The organ seems to stand as it was built. This is not the same thing as an electronic organ or synthesizer, but simply amplified and enhanced acoustic sound. I think it's pretty remarkable and clever and if it sounds good, it is good. The Brits and all the rest of 'em can stick to their old wheasy boxes of whistles if they like, but this is a way of making lemonade out of lemons....

[y11971alex]

This is indeed a very useful way!

[thesummerlover]

I for one believe that this is quite an innovative idea to expand the resources. For those of you who criticize this organist's efforts, I would suggest you do the "proper" thing and make donations of no less than $1,000 each toward a total restoration/tonal expansion project by a reputable builder for this instrument. Until then, I would suggest leaving your "thinking inside the box only comments" at your keyboard. The audacity to criticize from the "purists" irritate me to no end. Be well.

[PhasingSound]

THAT IS AMAZING!! I'm a person who is using electronic instruments and effects for a long time and I tried many different things in my studio, but I would never expect that real organs might also be assisted by this kind of "toys":) What is the next step btw.? Trance gating;))?

[acorntechnique]

Organ assisted by Guitar pedals? That's novel, though I cant imagine why you'd want to do it.

[pianoplayeruk]

I sincerely hope your parish is able to find the funding required so that you can do a proper job and install the pipes you want. 32 or even 64 ft!

But loudspeakers and Boss pedals?

I'd be embarrassed to tell someone.....

Good luck with your plans.

[chupahombrrre]

You feature among your video favorites such delights as "Farting Girlfriend," "The Pooter" (in four volumes), "Jingle Fart," "Gay Naked Boys Dancing," "Banned TV Commercials" (featuring lesbians), a piano duet of that timeless and tasteful classic "Chopsticks," and, last but not least, "Me Getting Darts Thrown At My C#@k".

Therefore, your high-road indignity at someone else's electronically augmented pipe organ videos seems a bit out of hand, one would think.

[pianoplayeruk]

In addition - those whom I have spoken to here about your ideas are actually shocked that you would use such a system to enhance the sound of an acoustic instrument. Their eye brows went up and their mouths opened in disbelief. 'Only in America' were the words of the resident organist of St Thomas cathedral in my nearby city. You have departed completely from what Acoustic pipe organs are all about. If your going to use loudspeakers, why don't you just buy a Hammond and a couple of Leslies?

[pianoplayeruk]

Let me say that there most certainly would not be any donations of any sum, 6 figures or otherwise. Not because I have any issue with your project, but because I live in Europe where, there are thousands of projects in need of funding. However, nowhere here, has there been a suggestion to add loudspeakers and effects pedals to fake a sound. American it seems is uniquely capable in the 'false and fake' department. Here in Europe it would be considered 'sacrilege' to do such a thing to an organ.

[pianoplayeruk]

Let me say that there most certainly would not be any donations of any sum, 6 figures or otherwise. Not because I have any issue with your project, but because I live in Europe where, there are thousands of projects in need of funding. However, nowhere here, has there been a suggestion to add loudspeakers and effects pedals to fake a sound. America it seems is uniquely capable in the 'false and fake' department. Here in Europe it would be considered 'sacrilege' to do such a thing to an organ.

[theremin137]

I was going to remove your comments but decided to let them stand, for all the world to behold your self-important pompousness and nose-upturned eurocentrism.

[uwdcpiggy]

Great idea - what size speakers do u use?

[jamietrt]

speakers? thats is a acoustic organ. theres no speekers

[sparky2k3]

cheating yes but verry good job with what you have

[pianoplayeruk]

Am i missing something here or isn't this simply cheating with technology?

of course the overall sound can be augmented to produce tones only available on instruments with much bigger pipes of course, but Boss effects pedals and loudspeakers??

To me that simply cheating - sorry.

[theremin137]

Call it what you will - in this very small parish with ZERO budget for any more real pipes [indeed, not even budget to maintain what's there], this is an acceptable alternative at present until we receive funding to complete the organ.

We would be most grateful to receive a financial gift from you to fill out the missing stops, if our "cheating" is of such great concern to you! Just be sure your check has a minimum of six digits following the dollar sign.......

Thanks for your input.

[wsanders1]

Cool!

Don't they have pipe organs on Ebay by now? I can just see it - "Runs great, some assembly required."

[theremin137]

Yes indeed, I have seen old pipe organs from churches being sold on eBay as well as new ones made by organ builders! And many auctions for pipes and other parts.

[theremin137]

(p.s. The cost factor of installing pipe additions lies not so much in the cost of the pipes themselves but in related materials - wind chests, mechanical parts, updating the console [if that's even possible], retrofitting and modifying the building, and the incredible amount of highly skilled labor involved. You can't go to Home Depot and bring over a crew of day laborers to put in a pipe organ.)

[alefroemming]

I know a organ builder, that did the something done here only on a much larger and complicated scale, and you can't tell the difference at all between real pipes and speakers. i like the guitar pedals. that is a fantastic idea!!!!

[wsanders1]

And I meant that as a compliment to your DIY spirit.

When I was a kid I used to sneak into the concert hall of a big university down the street and hack on the organ until someone would run me out. All the 32' ranks were synthesized, that was pretty high tech for back then.

[JSB1983]

What a cool way to soup up the organ!

[jmjboi]

I might be seing things but in this video when you first show us the pedal notes when I look carefully you weren't playing a d flat you were playing an a flat??

[Phantphan1993]

he pushed down a Ab, but the first thing was set to play down a fifth still - so it was really a Db

[BySharpandFlame]

haha no you're correct

[rexx6869]

I don't use youtube much so please tell me, will this work with a 14 rank organ? Can I make a 16' Reed out of an 8' Reed with this device? How do I do it? Write me please!! I think this youtube account e-mails me...TY!!!

[redletterchurch]

I'll never, ever trust an organist again...

[jkeelsnc]

Clever! Interesting!

[windsorcommuter]

That's what I love about organs...you don't just play em you build em! There's nothing like getting the back off a pipe organ and just messing around in their eh? Nice work.

[theremin137]

Hi, yes, it sounds good enough to have fooled a fellow organist who was downstairs listening. He just "fell out" when he came up and saw what the 32-footers really are! And, no, it does not get 'confused' since it's only receiving single-tone input.

[latribe]

Hi!

Really brilliant! Thanks! I've tried a Behringer US 600 but going an octave or two up it can't cope with 2nd inversion triads, especially if there is a bottom related note in the bass. From your video the Boss unit sounds impeccable. Does it really sound as good as your demonstration? Have you managed to confuse it?

Very very many thanks for posting this trick!

[latribe]

Hi!

What an inspiration! Thanks for posting this! Do I see two units? How do you get the unit to respond to individual stops and not the whole organ or sets of ranks . . . ?

Thanks

[theremin137]

The unit in the Swell amplification channel does affect the entire division. The one in the pedal affects the entire division to a certain degree, but the mike is closest to the 16-foot reed pipes so it picks up most of the audio output from them. That, along with the fact that the 16-foot reed is the loudest and most harmonically active stop in the Pedal division. Thanks for your kind comments.

[ChalieChaplin]

Very interesting!!! Wow!!!

[ukorganist]

thats quite cool!

[matmilne]

utterly brilliant. totally musical, genius, and ingenious too. well inkeeping with the idea of a rennovation on that scale and nature. adding too much weight to the organ can be very dangerous to the building, doing it this way is obviously cost effective and is deffinately something to be encouraged the world over. 5 stars

[theremin137]

Thx. Glad to hear an "encouraging word."

[Organgrinder010]

How intriguing! I think it is wonderful what you have set up here.