Zagzebski on Plantinga: Reformed Epistemology. "Religious Knowledge and The Virtues".

[dfpolis]

Very informative. While Plantinga has valuable insights, after hearing him speak I had so many objections that I could not even begin to organize them all in time for a cogent question. I came away with little desire to study his work. Since, I have seen that he has diamonds in that coal.

[SobrietySobriquet]

I'm not sure what Zagzebski source you are reading from. Are you reading from Virtues of the Mind? I have that book but I haven't had time to delve into it much. I'm studying epistemology now in school and I was trying to clarify differences between Virtue and Reformed epistemology. It would be nice to know what Zag. sources you are reading so I can read them myself as well. Thanks.

[SobrietySobriquet]

@SobrietySobriquet I know the source now. Sorry. I posted that before I finished the video. I'm hoping the book contains much of the same material as this article.

[berettaNZ]

I just thought I'd pop in to note that I am the creator of that picture of Alvin Plantinga destroying the Taj Mahal. It's nice to see it in use!

[Theologica37]

What a great picture. Can you give me some information so that I can properly document and cite it? As I recall, I could only find it on a forum.



[berettaNZ]

Unfortunately Youtube doesn't allow me to post URLs in the comments, so I will message you privately.

[jaydyer]

Ha! Small world. What's up Craig...lol.

[jaydyer]

This debate is flip sides of the same coin. You should look at St. Maximus the Confessor and the religious epistemology of the East.

[migkillertwo]

Well I finally got around to watching your video.

It seems that your whole argument is centered around the notion that Reformed Epistemology demolishes Doxatic Voluntarism. Now I agree that doxatic voluntarism is true, to some extent. Obviously we can't choose all of our beliefs.

Sadly I have not read Plantinga's series on Warrant, but all presentations of Plantinga's reformed epistemology divorce justification from warrant. This is why Plantinga admitted that Muslims are justified...

[migkillertwo]

...though not warranted to hold to Islam.

[Theologica37]

Right, and I mean just think about that one for a second. It doesn't take a whole lot of genius to tell that's problematic. Hopefully later in the week I can get around to making other videos.

[AbdielAbiram]

lol doesn't Platinga call that the "son of the Great Pumkin" objection?

[Cimbolic]

Thanks for posting this. It's very interesting.

[antipelagian]

He is a molinist.

[AbdielAbiram]

I don't like Anthony Kenny that much, he is admittedly I concede an eminent Thomist, or Neo-Thomist or whatever, because he isn't an essentialist and thinks that Thomas' project of Natural Theology fails, so I don't know what to call him. Which it does seem to me ridiculous to reject the essentialism of Thomas and then call your self a Thomist.

[Theologica37]

Yeah I for sure would not walk that path but Kenny specifically eats Plantinga alive for that claim, so I had to include it.

The man knows Thomistic philosophy, we need to concede this, he just doesn't follow it or its theological counterparts-- that much is for sure. The man is an apostate.

[AbdielAbiram]

I'm uploading my answer video now, the audio quality is horrible. Anyway, it appears however that Kenny, in fact I know he does because of my acquaintance with his book on Aquinas and being, that he rejects essentialism, which seems to me pivotal in understanding Thomism.

[antipelagian]

1 Cor 2:13-15

I don't subscribe to RE, but God commanding His people to seek Him, etc, is not a blanket statement of mankind's ability to properly seek and/or reason through spiritual truth.

In fact, God commanding the reprobate to repent and believe says nothing of their ability to do so...only that they *should*...I think Luther spanked Erasmus on this very topic.

Good vid, though....I'm certain you are aware that Plantinga, et al, are not Calvinists.

[Theologica37]

Plantinga and Wolterstorff are both Calvinists, and both attended the same college as Van Til-- Calvin college. Its just that now, Plantinga teaches at a Catholic university. But they are Calvinists. In fact, Wolterstorff very frequently gave talks at Calvin college.

[antipelagian]

Google it...molinists and open theists love RE.

Wolterstorff, if I remember correctly, would fall under the category of open theist.

Calvin College is not a bastion of Calvinism...ironically.

[Theologica37]

Oh I agree with the top statement, but Plantinga is indeed a calvinist, and yes Wolterstorff is an open theist so its a little different I guess. Plantinga certainly considers himself one, but I do know that his views on the trinity, supposedly (its not like he writes on these things generally) are different.

Perhaps we're defining "calvinism" different, I'm not exactly sure how this sort of thing works within the various reformed denominations. Can you be "excommunicated" from calvinism?

[antipelagian]

The social Trinity is essentially what Plantinga holds to.

You can't be excommunicated from Calvinism, but terms that are abused become meaningless...much like that one girl no one wants to marry because she's a virgin for the 32nd time.

[RussellFTW]

Plantinga is not a Calvinist, he does not believe in double predestination, sola fide, etc. He's a molinist, just like Bill Craig

[Scientialist]

If i didn't already know, i would think you were on the other side of the argument. You make some good points and give some nice examples of the bazaar circular reasoning employed by Christian apologists.

[Theologica37]

They haven't used these arguments yet is the thing, I am very much on "their side" of the fence.. "weak atheism" is most certainly absurd. It is nothing short of an ad hoc copout to make up for a lack of argument. I do disagree with Plantinga on this issue, as should others when they consider what it forces us to believe theologically speaking-- but this doesn't entail that I do not support Plantinga. He is one of my favorite philosophers.

[Anglolund]

@Theologica37 .correcetion to my second post ..The Goodness of God's character instead of ( Goodness of Charcter ) .

[Anglolund]

Theologica: Intresting insights. I studied RE as a protestestant and always thoght it is was an intresting critique of the various forms of epistemologies out there, but always found it somewhat suspect. I thought you pointed out some intresting insights in terms of the opreation ot the mind and the will and what role they play in warrant and belief. Looking forward to Pt 2.

[jemerson85]

Geez, that was so over my head.

[Theologica37]

I have 3 summarized points in the sidebar check them out.

[jemerson85]

Thanks.

[DawahFilms]

Thank you so much for this video :)

[Theologica37]

Nooo problem :-)

[Veritas48]

I feel like I just took a class!

[Theologica37]

Sorry for the information being all at once.. It really saves me time to just do one 10 minute video rather than doing 3 part video series (most people would in this situation). So I kinda have to go through it quickly.

The next videos hopefully will be more straight forward.

What of the subject matter? Do you hold to RE?

[Veritas48]

@Theologica37

I am very much so leaning to RE. Perhaps I can make a video after this discussion we're having or maybe since its really an inhouse discussion I could address my views in an upcoming podcast. But yes, at this point I am leaning in that direction.

[Theologica37]

I think I can change your mind, there isn't a whole lot you have to tweak about RE to fix about 90% of the problems.

Does it not strike you as an immediately contradictory that faith is rendered an unconscious act? Do you have any idea what this does to the concept of "loving God" ? The Will must be involved. Sacred scripture and St. Augustine inevitably take the hand with this one.

[Anglolund]

@Theologica37 Yes I agree with your critiques, very insightful, it dose ential problems for the faith dynamic and the nature of God. In my research I know that many in reformed circles look to compatiablism to resolve these problematic issues.

[Anglolund]

@Theologica37 Paul Helm out of Kings College is one among many that have writen on this issue ( The Providence of God pgs. 185-189 ) . He accounts for faith being a responisble and conscious act and relies on several lines of reasoning that account for the Goodness of Charcter in light of his view of faith and providence (Chapters 8&9) ; however, I don't know if this is the position of Plantinga or any of the RE advocates.

[Anglolund]

@Anglolund I know however that Helm references Plantinga and others in the RE camp in his works.

[Theologica37]

I'll be honest I've never read his work. On the outset it still seems to be problematic, what I'm not seeing is duty. It may very well be the case that he argues like Alston for some sort of "internalistic externalism" .. believe it or not that is what its called.. Which I'm slowly seeing I'll also have to address in this .. series I guess. I've been getting alot of feedback essentially demanding that I keep going ..lol.

[Anglolund]

@Theologica37 I agree. its seems problematic from a theological and philosophical level. Yea when I read Alston's article on "Christian Experinence and Christian Belief" it seemed logical but just seems prone to severe subjectivism or as you put it Drastic individualism.

[billredeemed]

hey Brother why don't you pray for me that i will be able to understand all of what you are saying:) Jesus bless you!

[Theologica37]

Which part was too complicated? Perhaps I could rephrase?

[billredeemed]

It's not you. Each of us can relate to a certain group of people better; that i feel is the way Jesus works to reach everyone. I feel that you are reaching people that are far more educated than i am or may ever be, conversely i may be able to reach some of the less educated like myself. You just keep on doing what you are doing with the peace of Jesus.

[DasAmericanAtheist]

I was expecting this conversation to move to some discussion of reformed epistemology--I was possibly going to do some criticism myself.

Good video.

[Theologica37]

Yeah you could tell thats where it was going.

[DasAmericanAtheist]

Yeah, a lot of allusion to belief in god not needing evidence to be justified...in fact, DaWahFilms said exactly that.

"Self-Authenticating Faith" strikes me as one of the weakest justifications for belief in god--and does nothing to bear the burden of Divine Multiplicity. That might work in a somewhat Deistic sense, but certainly not for a thorough-bread theistic position such as Christianity of Islam.

My $.02 I guess.

[Theologica37]

I certainly think there are issues, and I'm not alone. I haven't even gotten to some of the more crucial aspects of the shortcomings yet. Needless to say, I do understand where Plantinga is coming from-- and I'm sure he might even overcome of these objections but it is clear that this is also a deeply theological issue to which Plantinga is weighted by.

[DawahFilms]

@DasAmericanAtheist

But the problem here isn't for Theists.

We can justify our basic Theism by this understanding and then move on to other things to evidence our specific religious traditions.

We do not consider Theism, generally understood, to be counter to Deism. Deism is still the belief in God, just with different attributes.

This whole issue we have raised is a problem for Atheists.

[Veritas48]

@DawahFilms

I agree, Deism is a subset of theism. It is a type of theism simply with less attributes assigned. I dont see why there should be any sort of conflict here.

[DawahFilms]

@Veritas48

Well, they say that the problem lies with the fact that specifically, a Deistic account of god is non-personal, whereas a Theistic account of god is.

But, as I stated earlier...we're talking about general Theism, not specifics.

[Pumbaelo]

My first comment seems to be missing, but I laughed so hard when I saw the "Plantinga Rampage" picture from the Prosblogion photoshop contest.

[Theologica37]

Hmm, try reposting.

Its an absolutely hilarious photo I couldn't resist!

[drsuessre14]

Glad you did a video on this.

[Theologica37]

Oh thank you. Yeah its been a long time coming. Veritas48 finally moved my hand.