Jazz Guitar Lesson 2 Melodic Minor Modes (1 of 2)

[xOnimpulsex]

where is the melodic minor scale derived from? Like, diatontically from the major scale, where do you arrive at the melodic minor scale or is it outside diationic? also if it is from the diationic harmony, can you harmonize every mode there is? and then how do you know what to play over what? .....thats a lot i know haha. anyone out there that can help with these please

[lekremyelsew]

@xOnimpulsex Starting from the natural minor scale, composers liked to raise the 7th to a major because it creates a V7 (dominant) chord which resolves very well to the I, which made the harmonic minor scale. When creating melodies with this scale, there was an awkward augment second between the 6th and the 7th. They didn't didn't like the way it sounded, especially in the "dissonance is for the devil" period of time. So they raised the 6th too which got rid of that augmented interval.

[lekremyelsew]

@xOnimpulsex As for the modal question, major scale and its relative modes are set apart from others by a unique pattern of whole and half steps (WWHWWWH). Every mode of the major scale contains this pattern, the difference in modes is where you start. The harmonic and melodic minor scales each have a different pattern of intervals (starting at a different root note does not change the overall pattern). So the natural, harmonic and melodic minor scales each have their own set of 7 unique modes.

[lekremyelsew]

@xOnimpulsex One more for clarity XD. When modulating in a song to a different relative mode, you just start from a different note in the scale, the key signature stays the same (hence the same interval pattern). When going from natural minor to harmonic minor you use a chromatic inflection (raising the 7th) and therefore changing the key signature (and inherently the overall pattern). Same for the raised 6th from harmonic to melodic minor.

[closetome]

Do you reccomend any books to get to learn jazz harmony? Thankyou

[Eradicateify]

@closetome

Mark Levine The jazz theory book

[danlovesnan]

hello, I have a question. If I play a Cmelodic minor on a G7 it sounds good, but if I play a Gsharp melodic minor it doesn't..isn't it strange? I was playing the Ab melodicMinor thinking of the triton substitution G7/D7b (C#7)...Have you got any idea?

[TheHappyFaceBoxMan]

That guitar sounds beautiful, almost like a nylon string guitar

[closetome]

you spend the first 5 mintues talking about nothing of any use, why get into something meaty straight away like how we can actually solo with it

[geoffstockton]

@closetome How about you don't bother telling me how to conduct my lessons and post some of your own if you don't like mine? I know I personally don't waste my time telling people how they should conduct their youtube videos, which is great because it allows me more time to be productive because I don't have to waste time putting others down. If you think the first 5 minutes contain info of no particular use, that's your problem. About 11 thousand other people haven't shared your complaint.

[geoffstockton]

@closetome I'm assuming you're one of the six thousand who didn't bother to watch part 2 of this lesson.

[RUOCCOLOCO]

5:01 i like to calli it MIXOLYDIAN #11 (mixo #11)

[ivanmikyska]

@2112mike I don't think many jazz musicians lower the 6th and 7th when practicing them. Especially because in jazz, a lot of it is using the melodic minor scale is used for composition, harmonising it etc., so it's pointless to lower the 6th and 7th. I never really understood that, anyway. Why would you lower it anyway? What's the point? About the saxlessons thing you posted, I didn't read it (couldn't find it), but I imagine it's just the same thing, but with a different name.

[ivanmikyska]

Don't get all defensive, I've just never heard of it - unlike Berklee, NewSchool, Julliard, NYU or NEC, but that's not the point, it might be very good for all I know. Point is, I'm from the Czech Republic and I've really never heard the term jazz minor. Here (and in all the study material I've used) it's just melodic minor, both for jazz and classical musicians.

[2112mike]

@ivanmikyska so then when you're playing the scale descending do you lower the 6th and 7th?

[ivanmikyska]

@2112mike I'm just from another part of the world (Czech Republic) and i have to say I've never heard the term jazz minor scale - just melodic minor, which is used by jazz and classical musicians alike. And I didn't know that's what you meant by jazz minor in the first comment.

[ivanmikyska]

@2112mike Hey, don't take it as an attack.

[acbulgin2]

Fantastic tone, obviously a well-versed player! What I fail to understand about formalisms of any kind however is the tendency for people to think it's cool to have 5 different names for one thing. The lack of standardization only serves to confuse. Oh well, the only answer is to learn the scales and forget about the names. You would think by now the jazz players would agree about what to call a scale, after all this time. Damned proprietary egotism!

[MusicianofStark]

Thanks for this lesson. So what your saying is that this melodic minor scale is played the same ascending and descending? I always was tought to play melodic minor ascending and harmonic minor descending. That never made much sense to me.

[1979saxman]

@MusicianofStark it's a different scale ascending and descening ONLY in when it's used in Classical Music, Jazz musician's just drop the third going up and down.

[2112mike]

i thought that "melodic minor" was more classical, or, Western Art music..with the descending minor 6th and 7th. in jazz, it's the jazz minor scale which is the same ascending as descending. Im studying jazz currently at Humber college in Toronto.

[ivanmikyska]

@2112mike Oof, doesn't sound like a great college. The melodic minor is (along with the lydian) a really important scale in modern jazz. And not just the scale in itself, but also its modes - the IV is the lydian dominant (or lydian mixolydian) scale, used for V7#11, the VII is the altered scale (for altered chords, surprisingly enough) and the V is the mixolydian b13 (for ummm...mixolydian b13 chords). So it's a very important scale in jazz,

[2112mike]

@ivanmikyska okay first of all, Humber College is one of the best schools to go to in North American. Second of all, its not called melodic minor in jazz because when you descend on the scale, you maintain the 8 7 6 5 4 b3 2 1 structure. please dont start lecturing me on the modes of jazz minor..i'm already fluent enough in them. thats why its called the jazz minor...not melodic minor. 

[aspensubi28]

@2112mike naw dude its melodic

[2112mike]

@aspensubi28 how so? do you lower the 6th and 7th when you're descending?

[aspensubi28]

@2112mike its the same up and down, just like the fellow said.

[2112mike]

@aspensubi28 read this saxlessons com/jazzminor htm and tell me you're right.

[ivanmikyska]

@2112mike but it's not played like classical musicians play it, but the same up and down (1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8 - like the major scale but with a minor 3rd).

[rock4ever812]

8:56 I can think of one possible voicing for a D#11(13) starting on the A string and going up: D G# C F# B (A5 D6 G5 B7 E7). You could also use the same voicing starting on the 6th string (E10 A11 D10 G11 B12). It's cumbersome, but it's there.

[geoffstockton]

@rock4ever812 Hey, good call. Don't know why I hadn't thought of that! It's a little cumbersome but I've definitely seen worse. Plus: if you're playing with a bass player you could always drop the bass note and leave it to the bassist. Then it's just the classic 7#9 Hendrix chord voicing against the tritone in the bass. Thanks for pointing that out!

[cckptom]

hi geoffstockton. great lesson thank you.

Hey Tjuo, when ever you only understand a 10th of what Geoff is doing in his great lesson. you would be eventually able to respond. Playing Country Road with a Capo...says enough..

Tom

[6stringks]

Respect Geoff, great lesson...you come long way...guess you wouldn't need a Capo to play Country Roads ;-)))

[geoffstockton]

@tjuo77 So do you think Coltrane never studied this? My advice would be to go and read up on John Coltrane. Have fun searching for the rest of your life for sounds that you could learn to use in an hour or two if you were willing to think.

[squider98]

@geoffstockton from tjuo77 I’m sorry for my previous comment it was rude and disrespectful. I hope you accept my apology. I changed my account to stop those who trawled through my stuff misinterpreting what I’ve looked at, for things I play rather than teach.

[squider98]

@geoffstockton My point is this: Sure Coltrane studied this stuff but his real skill was (like Parker et al) blowing over fast changes with real expression, style and above all rhythm. Spending hours studying modes of the melodic minor scale and worrying what a melodic minor scale should do ascending or descending I think is fruitless when trying to play over standards (Particularly where the chords go by at a rate of knots).

[squider98]

@geoffstockton The better approach is (like solo to Giant steps) get your ears accustomed to hearing digital patterns over the changes. Like say on a II V I using 1, m3, 5, m7 on II to 3, b9, 1 m7 on V to say 3, 5, 7, 1 on the I. It’s incredible how your ear start to hear the solos after doing this for a while. I just get frustrated when I hear people implying that scales are the whole game. Anyway you should be praised for putting your ideas out there so sorry once again.

[geoffstockton]

@squider98 Hey, apology, totally accepted. I apologize for my rude reaction. I've played over Giant Steps for years now and I hear you but the thing is: Unless you've studied the common usage scales of jazz, pretty thoroughly, those digital patterns don't mean a scrap. Learning scales isn't THE key to playing on standards but it's a pretty necessary step unless you want to take like five times as long to get there. There's just no ONE approach to jazz. More like 20 approaches.

[6stringks]

@Geoff Respect Geoff, great lesson...you come long way...guess you wouldn't need a Capo to play Country Roads ;-)))

@tjuo77 : man, man, man...you shouldn't even open your mouth and learn to play without Capo...but that would mean you understand a bit of music

[BlikeNave]

I am confused about how we get the Dominant 7 chord on our minor V. If we have a minor ii V I progression, I would think of it as (in the key A minor) ii (Bmin7b5), V (E7alt- confused about this), I (A min7). If we think of it modally, I'd see it as locrian, phrygian, aeolian. Do we just make our V a dominant 7 regardless of the modes? (because I would think of our E [our V in this minor progression] as being phrygian- not mixolydian. Idk I'm just unclear on where this V7 comes from.

[geoffstockton]

@BlikeNave You're problem is that you're thinking of the natural minor scale as opposed to the harmonic minor scale which is Root, 2nd, b3rd, 4th, 5th, b6th, 7th.

Minor key chord progressions are traditionally built from this scale, hence the name harmonic minor. This scale isn't used melodically over the changes much in jazz or classical because of the 1 1/2 steps between the b6th and natural 7th. Plus mixolydian is only one of many scales that produces a dominant chord.

[BlikeNave]

@geoffstockton Ahhh, that makes MUCH more sense! This has been a confusing problem for me and has hindered me in my minor ii V i progressions for some time. You've shown me the way! haha thanks Geoff.

[mikebrownonline]

Can you tab this A melodic minor out...was too quick....i think your lessons are ace!

[malabarspyder]

dang you play the scale FAST and SMOOTH now I see an area I need a lot more practice.

THanks for the lesson nice mixture of theory and demonstration.

Sounds like STAIRWAY at 2:50!

[DougFCKNSteele]

I'm a metal player, I love the haunting characteristics of the melodic minor scale. Fredrik Thordendal of Meshuggah uses that one quite a bit when he's not doing taps. Good stuff!!!

[geoffstockton]

@DougFCKNSteele Yeah, I'm a big metal fan too. Mostly classic metal and some newer "weird" bands like Protest The Hero and Between The Buried and me. I'm sure I'm missing out on good stuff but it just goes with the territory of listening to pretty much all styles of music. Nobody can cover it all. I'll have to check out Meshuggah.

[DougFCKNSteele]

@geoffstockton If you need to check out one song, try Future Breed Machine. If you check out one album, try Destroy Erase Improve. That's their Back in Black and it's a benchmark ball kicker.

[soulbrotha4u]

Nice thanks

[PieCesOfThreE]

super great lesson man.tks a lot

[FenderBender93]

Great lesson! It's also great to see that someone finally modifies some of the stupid chord names, and turn them into something that better describes their function. I miss some more improvising videos, though, because it seems that you have a hell of a lot of knowledge in stock and it would be great to see the possibilities we all get if we learn to know these clever scales and tricks. I know a great harmony book, but it's in Norwegian though, so it probably wouldn't help you :\

[KeithWhalen11]

Great teaching Geoff and loving that tone!

[sharingan3600]

thank you very much for the lesson, I subscribed to your channel and I really hope you make new lessons : ) You could do a video improvising using only the melodic minor scale.

And can anyone answer me if the harmonic minor scale have some use in jazz? Sorry about the bad grammar, I'm Brazilian.

[jeremyhillaryboobphd]

Am augmented im with you on that one ay makes way more sense. good to see someone who actually knows there shit properly on youtube

[stevieo78]

These lessons are extremely accessible, setting them apart from the majority of jazz lessons on the use of scales.

[JustinSandercoe]

Where is your take on the history of MMin? In my experience there is a lot of use of it in baroque music... let the debate begin ;)

[geoffstockton]

I've studied some baroque music myself and saw plenty  major 6ths and 7ths descending and b6ths and 7ths ascending which is a good indicator that direction was never the governing factor. The real governing factor was harmonic context. Go to my list of videos and you'll see one called "the melodic minor myth" which will explain what I'm talking about.

[jonsmith345]

Where is the clip of your take on the history of melodic minor Great lesson.

[geoffstockton]

It's in my list of videos on my channel. It's called the "melodic minor myth". Let me know what you think.

[Chromatype]

C aug is obviously the relative pseudo-major of A minor maj7...but that is basic theory 101 being re- done..applying the logic of the major scale to the melodic minor scale- very useful as a starting point. MORE useful to just harmonize that scale just the like the major scale, all modes, all arpeggios and superimpose them till you find your sounds...did that already. I play lines so much now that I don't even relate to it in such terms any more...its a line into another line over harmony

[btchslapyomom]

Chromatype had to tell the world he already did this.Bet he likes the taste of his own sperm too.I bet he superimposes his cock onto 17 magazine.You had to say it.Its sad to see people so desperate for recognition of there acomplishments(wich ANYONE can learn in a tonal harmony book or any book on improv or composition)that they have to let total strangers know it.What have you done for the instrument chromo?????

[geoffstockton]

Uh, thanks for the back-up, there, btchslapyomom but I'm all good. (You're making making me look worse than I am. LOL Just kidding, kinda.) Question though, do you know of any harmony books that don't suck? I've been searching for at least 8 years for one that I could feel OK about recommending to my students at work. But they all make stuff way more difficult than it needs to be. Even the chapters on basic diatonic triads are like 70 pages when they should be 7 pages. Anyone?

[geoffstockton]

Well, I guess I like names that describe the function of the thing when I'm teaching and conveying music. And contradictory sounding names like "minMaj7" or "diminished-whole tone" in place of "altered, super locrian". are what sounding confusing.

And believe me, when I'm really playing, none of this stuff even has any names. But you have to be able to communicate it, to teach it and learn it quickly, so you need names. And they may as well not be stupid ones.

[JesperStroem]

Great lessons. Thanks for posting.

[Chromatype]

Well...augmented is known to be the raised fifth and there is no raised fifth in an A minor maj 7th...so this guy is already making something simple confusing by using improper terminology.

[geoffstockton]

Dude, what's the relative major of Am? C major, right? So what's the relative major of the chord you insist on giving the stupid sounding name of Am maj7? C augmented. I'm sorry that you're confused by that. It's really pretty simple. I'm obviously not talking about raising the 5th of the A minor chord because that would be an inverted F major chord.

[geoffstockton]

Chromatype, hey I didn't mean to delete your last comment, I swear I was aiming for reply. I was going to say that I was left puzzled by it. Repost it if you remember it. If your were saying that one name would be more true than another for a chord or scale, I'd say that names are strings of syllables designated to stuff and if they were important, there would be only one language. What's important is understanding the function which is why I like my names and will keep using them.

[Chromatype]

No biggie man. It's fun to go back to look at the names and relating the relatives...uncle and aunt, major and minor( not that there is direct correlation there...don't want to piss some one off there who tries to find an insult in that too)... I was surprised that somebody made so much out of the statement that I had already harmonized and learned to apply the melodic minor scale...taking what I learned from harmonizing the major scale was a very logical extrapolation.

[shivarudra]

and i dont have to pay for these

[geoffstockton]

That's right, Shivarudra! (in the old game show voice) These just scratch the surface. I'm writing a book on this stuff and I'm shooting for about 300 pages where I get really in depth about this stuff. I'm up to page 250 so it shouldn't be much longer. That, you'll have to buy. But I'll have a PDF version of it for pretty cheap.

[shivarudra]

well ill be seeing you tonight, at the lessons i do pay for Geoff

[poorperson]

ill take 3 million copies!

just kidding, but i would probably buy it

[BlikeNave]

Hahaha this is a great video dude. Had me learning and laughing. :]

[BacEgChsBis]

Melodic minor turning into natural minor as it's descending is definitely not a myth. That's how melodic minor works speaking in terms of classical theory and there are plenty of examples of evidence of this. But you're right in that it's disregarded in jazz, and maybe that's what you were talking about, but it's certainly not a myth in any way.

[geoffstockton]

Well, I have a lesson where I get into how it's used in classical music. And truthfully, it's got nothing to do with which direction the notes are headed. You mentioned that there are examples of this being the case but there are just as many examples from Bach to Mozart where it's not the case. The lesson is recorded, I just need to convert it so I can post it so keep a look out. I swear to god it will make sense and you'll see what I'm saying.

[junka22]

Hey, first time watching your lessons, really nice stuff, I like your style of teaching. I subscribed, thanks for taking the time to educate, always gotta tip my hat to that, cheers ;)

[geoffstockton]

Junka, thanks for the kind words and subscription. It's great to see people getting what I hoped they'd get out of these. Thanks again. I'll just keep on posting them!

[junka22]

Great, can't wait to see. I'm still a bit new to jazz, but it's absolutely fascinating and I've learned enough to be at the point where all of this is very interesting and important. I'm buying records left and right since jazz tends to be so cheap and love submerging my whole being in it every now and then, but uhh didn't mean to write a novel here, so just thank you a lot for what you're doing ;)

[Orionsglare]

lol nice sense of humour man!!

i like your lessons,you know what you re talking :)