Oh and BTW, to all the other 'Chicas' and 'Chicos' out there, being good just because you fear Hell is like not stealing just because there are surveillance cameras. Pure hypocrisy.
You have so much ignorance about the bible that it is trully insulting. Try reading the whole bible instead of having someone reading to you the 'convenient parts' every sunday.
If you doubt me i can provide you all the biblical passages where god endorses slavery, incest, rape, infanticide, mass murder, torture..
@ZZzzzzzWhat Are we questioning God's morality? you who are human and do not know the heart of anyone. Have you ever considered for one second that God makes his decisions due to his knowledge base which is endless. You cannot reasonably condemn God for anything being that your knowledge base is limited and his is not. God's morality does not equate to a human beings morality. Two completely different categories. It is not possible for you to reasonably put restraint on God, it's ignorance.
@chica0616 How do you know so much about god chica? If you say he is benevolent based on the scriptura why can't i say he is cruel and megalomaniac? Should i ignore all the incest, infanticide, slavery, rape? should i be insensitive so i can blindly praise to god? ignorance is saying that god is this or that without even read the bible(thora,q'ran), ignorance is believing in talking a snake and donkey, believing in 9000 y old men, a 6000 y old Earth supported by pillars and has edges.
The only reason u are moral Chica, is because u live under SECULAR morality, because if u lived under a Theocracy you could has easily stone your neighbor if he works on Sunday, stone your disobedient child, stone another man's impure wife at her father's doorstep(read bible). You might find that improbable but look at Iran, Afghanistan, Indonesia, they live under the religious morality (sharia) and they stone people to death all the time, because their moral holly book tells them to do so.
"Is He willing to stop evil but not able? Then he is impotent. Is He able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is He both willing and able? Whence came evil?"
Does your view of god's laws (you hold as perfect) include the terrible tortures and death he commands for minor transgressions in the old Testament? Have you read the OT? What about his condemnation to HELL of nonbelievers in new testament?
Could you as mother damn your own children as evil at birth and hold a blow torch to them (non-stop) if they didn't believe you were their mother? isn't this a lot like what scripture says your god does? How do you consider this moral, let alone perfect?
With all due respect AnswerThem, you have posted a sincere video describing your perceptions of a benevolent and loving god. But I submit that you are viewing Christianity through rose colored glasses. If you consider yourself a scholarly Christian you must know what is written in scripture. Passage after passage of horrible atrocities all ordered or carried out by "god". How do you reconcile this?
Many who take the "blasphemy challenge" also question much of Christianity's morality as well.
Like the commentor below, you seem very nice and like a good mom you want the best for your children and family. The problem is that a lot of believer gloss over the evil stuff in the bible. The only way you can seriously believe the bible to be God's perfect word is if you never read it.
(continue) Gods laws are perfect and that's proof that they come from a perfect God? Ummm...Please bust open that book and start with Genesis and read. We are talking about a book that claims that a man who rapes a woman is to marry the vicitm. We are talking about a book that calls for the death penalty for people who work on the sabbath and that married couples who have sex while the woman is on the rag is an abomination unto the lord. These aren't perfect laws by far Lady.
(continued) Look up the various abominations unto God. Some are understandable but most make no sense.
Here are but a few: Homosexuality, working on the sabbath, men who trim their beards, planting 2 types of seed in the same row, eating shrimp, wearing clothes made of 2 or more types of fibers, witchcraft, idol worship, and having sex with one's wife when she is on the rag. These are all equally abhorrent to god. Please! Eat at Red Lobster and be damned! LOL
A woman must listen in silence and be completely submissive. I do not permit a woman to act as teacher, or in anyway to have authority over a man; she must be quiet.
If you dont understand the arguments, dont enter the debate. The argument of god as a megalomaniac is meant to show that he is a human invention plagued by human faults. It is not meant as an argument as to why we "deny"/dislike him.
The athiest position is, there is no god(s), just as there is no teapot orbiting the star sirius. We cant conclusively prove that the teapot isnt there, we just think its absurd to asume there is.
The B.C. shows we are not afraid of myths, even big scary ones.
C'mon man. She is one of the nicest Christians I have seen on you tube. It's like talking smack to your mother. It's ok to criticize but you don't need to get hostile on the innocent.
But your right Ray and Kirk are pretty insane for even VFX to support. They totally lost the debate hands down.
Jeez! We have science now, and we know that no gods can exist. They would break the laws of physics. Get over it, read some science instead of ancient fairy-tales.
Stupid. where did God come from. When those who don't believe in Christ cannot even account for where they themselves come from. LOL, boy is man stupid when they serve the devil.
Bless you sister for doing Gods work. Matt 10:16 Behold i send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Cliftonmay...Thank you for your encouragement! In Christ, there is sweet fellowship. Speaking of wisdom, I love the verse where Jesus said, "Wisdom will be known by her children." I used to wonder what in the world He meant by that. Now I know...when it's all said and done, our wise choices will be proven to have been right.
a quote by the Nobel Prize winning American physicist Steven Weinberg:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Very true, and then they become evil for what they see as a good cause. How can good people, believer or Atheist, convince the religious fanatic that what they believe as a faith should not give them any right to forcefully attempt to change the minds of others. Lets keep to peaceful discussion.
And if stem cell research is wrong because it leads to killing blasto-cysts, then why is artificial insemination OK, when it kills thousands of them all the time?
about 30,000 blastocysts are frozen every year in US fertility clinics. The vast majority of them are destroyed after the family has succeeded in having children. They are considered waste. Mr. Bush and the christian right won't let them be used to save lives via stem cell research. That would be killing babies! And killing is illegal. Unless it's done in a fertillity clinic. Or Iraq.
about blastocysts, I'd be very curious to hear oyur opinion on that. If stem cell research is wrong because it kills blastocysts, then is in-vitro fertilization wrong too because it kills many times more blastocysts?
All genuine Christians have come to a place of change in their lives. They have turned from their former lifestyles and with God's power, live a new life free from the bondage to those sins. This happens all around the world. What evidence have you offered?
You are avoiding the subject. Why are your morals not exactly the same as the puritans, the Amish, the Quakers, the Calvinists, The modern christians of Isreal. You all read the same bible, yet you're morals are in many cases very different. If you can't stop avoiding the question and explain that, then you'll have to admit that morals don't come from god, and that it's possible for an atheist to have moral values.
Why must people of any faith belive morals must come from "God". As a person who needs no faith to live a "good" life I needed no supernatural beling to tell me how to be good. Any how, the bible was written by man for the control of man with only help from his own imagination. For the truth, look to modern scientific fact and logic not historical hearsay please.
Modern scientific fact? Give me some modern scientific fact which proves abiogenesis. Give me scientific fact which proves where all this matter came from. Athiests call it science but your beliefs are based on what begins as science but leaps to conjecture.
Lets discus this. Just as necessity is the mother of invention, we must start at a point of our own choosing. If we have an idea that something is true or false it is fair (by scientific means or otherwise) to attempt to prove the case. But you must be prepared to find your original belief incorrect and accept your findings. Just to have an idea and believe blindly can cause all kinds of distorted faiths as we see in the world today. Conjecture can only be the beginning of a path of discovery.
Shepard...So you do admit that you are using conjecture to arrive at your conclusions? You are right, I do not want to blindly accept lies. What a fool I would be!!! But neither do I want to blindly follow what the so-called "experts" do not, as of yet, fully understand. Do you know, with complete assurance, how the universe began?
Do you require complete assurance? Science doesn't offer it, and never has pretended to. You yourself said below that your own theory has no proof either. So why hold science to a standard that you can't even achieve?
I would love to have complete assurance. Yes, science does pretend to offer assurance. Read school/college textbooks. They present evolution as a fact. I would like scientists to have integrity here and state things as they really are...hypotheses.
You are simply incorrect on this. One of the most fundamental tenets of science is that all conclusions are "provisional" and if new evidence contradicts them, then they must be abandoned in search of another theory that fits the known evidence. Any textbook that presents any theory as fact, rather than provisional conclusions is a poor textbook.
shepard...So, in a sense, you too are blindly believing in naturalism. Are you open to the truth, whatever that may be? What if the God of the Bible is true, are you willing to love and obey Him? I find that many atheists have a hatred of the Bible and God.
If a person hates god, then he/she is by definition not an atheist. I know it's hard for you to accept it, but people who say they don't believe in god really don't believe in god. And one can't hate something that one doesn't believe in.
re: abiogenesis, Are you implying that your religion has any PROOF that it's theory is right? If so, show me this proof. Intelligent design is, after all, only a theory. Let's compare your evidence to ours.
No, we do not have proof. We do have what we consider evidence through nature but not proof. Neither do you. That's my point. The term "science vs faith" is very misleading and incorrect. The theory of evolution, along with the theory of abiogenesis and the discussion on the origin of the universe go beyond science into the realm of imagination. None of it can be proven with observable experiments (which is what science really is).
Ah, no, we have FACTS. From facts we form theories to explain those facts. Overwhelmingly, the facts that archeologists, biologist, botanists, geneticists, scientists in general discover point to the truth of evolution theory. That we evolved over billions of years. There may be facts missing but it is still the best explanation for the facts that we have.
The Bible provides no facts just a story.
How the universe began, we may never know. That is a different theory. The Big Bang theory.
"God may appear one day" You admit that there is that possibility. This shows me that science has not provided the assurance of which we speak. Yet how often do naturalists act like they're backed by scientific facts? I'm just wanting to be accurate in our thinking here.
forgetit...Shouldn't the facts explain the theories? Facts need no explanation. If they are established as facts, they are observable and testable. Theories are not. Once they are, they are no longer theories, but facts.
Yes and no, facts are used to develop theories, which explain the facts. Some examples, we have many fossils of animals that don't exist anymore, a fact. We (men/women) have DNA that is very similar to that of a monkey or a mouse; parts of the DNA are identical, a fact. Darwin noticed that finches developed different beaks on different islands to eat differing foods on those islands.
forgetit...Let's talk about DNA. "DNA cannot function without at least 75 preexisting proteins, but proteins are produced by only DNA" This quotation is taken from Dr. Walt Brown's "In The Beginning". Fascinating, purely scientific book which provides evidence for creation. Check him out on-line.
Quoting from a book that states that plate tectonics does not occur. That's funny! Rotflol, as my daughter would say. Also from it, "Isolated rocks in space are meteoroids. Drag forces caused by water vapor and thrust forces produced by the radiometer effect concentrated asteroids in what is now the asteroid belt." Again, fotflol, meteoroids don't become meteoroids until they enter a planets atmosphere. A radiometer is a device for measuring. What drivel!
It used to be "We could not have come from monkeys!", now it's "Let's talk about DNA". I don't know enough about DNA, but I stand with most scientists.
Theists have had years to develop replies to the Bible's insanity. They even have a term for it, Christian Apologists! Now, theists have to defend against science with groups like the Discovery Institute that that put out books and papers like the one you quote.
So, do you support Intelligent Design, creationism or a 6000 year old earth?
forgetit, The true sadness here is that Anne (no offense intended) and those like her just don't have the ability to see the unbelievably obvious flaws in the arguments they are exposed to from book, media and their peers. They will read things that are beyond ridiculous and by it hook, line and sinker, because they have no factual knowledge of the universe to test it against.
Unfortunately most believers are raised in their family's faith and never question it. "The bible is true, read it, have faith!" Ok, but were did it come from? God caused to be written. Ok, but... And they cannot get to that next, Ok, but... Yes, it is just a collection of fables.
And don't forget that the church can be powerful place. They have family, friends and counselors there and it can be a large part of their life. It's not easy to give that up.
forgetit, Indeed, it's not easy to give that up. I was raised in a christian family, and I know what it's like to go through a period of asking what replaces those things when you stop believing. The question about morals that Anne asks is valid too, and must be dealt with when transitioning from that brain-washed state. But there comes a time when we realize that the truth is more important than the social network. The social network can be replaced. But the truth can not.
Headybrew...the discussion we are having about morals is not the most important issue to me, as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Knowing my Maker, not just knowing about Him, is my purpose. I love the truth. If I am in error, then I need to change. You act as if you have all the answers and yet that is simply not true. Let's talk about First Cause. What do you believe is/was the First Cause? It comes down to your guesswork, or in my case, faith!
Are you going to claim that there must be a first cause? This sort of argument always goes the same way. You say the universe needs a creator. I say "who created the creator." You say "the creator is infinite." I say, "if the creator needs no creator, then why can't the universe just be infinite too?" Let's not waste our time talking about the fallacy of the infinite creators. If you insist that there must be a first cause, then you have to justify your god having no first cause.
Hi Headybrew...yes, we are going aound in circles but I'm trying to pinpoint the supposed differences that you claim are between me and other Bible believers. And what about all those similarities between you and me? You've already admitted that you drink, have sex outside of marriage, and lie. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do you mind repeating the supposed "plenty of examples" you talked about? We don'tcelebrate Halloween, do you?
No, I'd rather not repeat myself. This is pointless. I could mention them again, but we've been in an infinite loop on this one. You obviously have good answer for me on this one, therefore I believe I have proven that you're morals do not come directly from your bible as you believe they do. Q. E. D.
headybrew...The question I have asked you about morals has not yet been answered. You claim that your morals and mine are more similar than those of mine and other Christians around the world. What facts do you have to back up that statement?
Well, we're going in circles on this one. I've provided plenty of examples. If you're actually claiming that your morals are more similar to the Amish or the Puritans than to an average citizen of today's western hemisphere, then there is not point in discussing it. I thought you were the one with all the answers. Can you explain the differences between your morals and the many sects I've mentioned or not?
I'm sorry, but for the sake of clarity, I need you to list our moral similarities as opposed to my differences with other believers. Either your statement is true and can be backed up with facts, or it's nonsense.
Yes, headybrew, we must seek the truth. Jesus said, "If you continue in my Word you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Maybe He was a crazy man. Maybe He was a liar. But maybe He was speaking the truth. I've chosen to believe that what He said is true. Have you taken the time to study His words?
I suspect I'm more familiar with them than you are, based on our discussions. I spent my youth in church every sunday, Baptist youth fellowships in evenings, vacation bible school in summers, etc... I attended christian summer camps too, and my camp councilors even wrote home to tell my parents how well I knew the bible. Fortunately, I eventually found the real truth. Which you could too if your mind were open to it.
forgetit...Hi. No, you have not scared me away. Jesus said that we must love the Lord with all our minds, as well as our hearts, souls, and all our strength. Secular historians value the Bible as historical record. Are you disregarding that fact?
AnswerThem, Hi, I think most Secular historians and archeologists would more likely consider it a historical novel, like Michener's Hawaii. It's so old that it's hard to confirm or deny. But, let's look, first we would throw out anything supernatural, we are trying to be RATIONAL, you said secular. None of the stories of Jesus' raising can be reconciled with the others. Was the rock in front of the cave or not? But, those stories would get thrown out with the irrational stuff.
Hi forgetit...Look at how much of the Bible supports and is supported by other historical documents. There is the Epic of Gilgamesh, along with countless flood stories in cultures around the globe. There are numerous documents (such as the Ebla tablets, the Cyrus Cylinder, the Elephantine Papyri and MANY others) which verify many of the historical events spoken of in the Bible.
AnswerThem, Where is the evidence that Moses wandered around for 40 years? No evidence for that many people living in the desert for that long. That's a lot of people eating, living, and dying. No evidence that supports that many people. Believe me, they have looked.
There other stories that are supported and other's that are opposed. Merely finding the name of someone in the bible in other records doesn't mean that person performed the acts described in the bible.
True, the supernatural events cannot be proven with actual physical evidence, but the details in the Bible cannot be completely discarded just because they are supernatural. Since they are "clothed" in actual historical events, they must be studied carefully. I'm not an expert in this field, but I'm learning more and more about it. It really comes down to faith.
as you say, it comes down to faith. I'll happily accept that the bible has some history in it, and that much of it is accurate. But the proves nothing about the existence of god. Nothing. Nada. Zip. It's exactly EXACTLY the same thing as assuming that the Illiad and the Oddysey are proof of the existence of the Greek Pantheon.
I think what the Bble offers as evidence of God in scripture is the life of Jesus. You could go into my favourites and have a look at some of the videos by Lee Strobel (a former athiest by the way) who puts forward many evidences to support the accuracy of scripture etc.
If scripture is accurate, are the events recorded about Jesus (miracle working etc) also accurate and reliable? Is there bias in people's disbelief? These questions are comlpetley retohrical.
We cannot trust solely in our minds, since we are limited (not only in the knowledge we've been given but also in our mental capacity). But like I said to headybrew, you believe the alternative without there being "proof" either.
AnswerThem -- Yes, you know more than I re the bible's contents. The unfortunate thing is that you, excuse me for saying this, were indoctrinated, as most people are. Around the world people are indoctrinated to the local faith.
Have you thought about the time/context in which it was written?
We know there were many sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, Jews, Nazarenes, Ebionites, Gnostics, ...) with many beliefs before Constantine essentially created the Catholic faith. Why did he do that? To consolidate his Power! What happened next? Muhammad invented Allah. Then wars....
Science says that we stand on a planet that may be approx 4.5-6 billion years old; circling a star on the edge of the Milky Way which science claims contains more that 200 billion stars. Ours is not the biggest! And it's just one of what may be millions of galaxies. They are still counting. Amazing! Why would a god care about insignificant me?
The "heart" doesn't exist without the brain controling it. But regardless of that, the bible even says the heart is deceitful and if you look around the world people's "hearts" have led them to all sorts of religions. Objetive logic and evidence is #1 if you care about your beliefs being true.
But do you think you should stone your child for disobeying you like it commands the Jews in the OT? Or was that God's subjective morality for the time?
I like how you are one of the few Christians on you tube who are actually pretty kind and compassionate when talking about atheists. I would love to talk to you and even though I can be bold against Christians I am sympathetic towards ones who are honest and kind because I use to be a Christian myself.
I have 2 children (8 and 10) and I often tell them that they cannot believe in Christ simply because I do. They must study and seek God for themselves. I teach them what the Bible says but I also tell them about how atheists don't believe He even exists. I tell them that most people hate Christ (even though many of them call themselves Christians) and that if they choose to follow Him they will also be hated in the world. So they must be careful to choose wisely.
They should seek the truth. Even if the truth is not god. From what You've said I'd be very surprised if you are giving them a good un-biased view, and good factual information upon which to make their decision. They are being brainwashed. Very sad. Tell me, do you teach them all about Hinduism and Shintoism and Buddhism and ... The apples don't fall far from the tree. That's why you turned out to follow more-or-less the same flavor of belief as your parents. And so shall your children.
True, I can't explain/prove where God came from. It boggles my mind! It is equally boggling to think that all the material things around us came from nothing! It HAS to come from something or someone!!! You cannot say that what I believe is just foolishness. Either you believe that all this has always existed (which is not intellectually satisfying) or that it appeared out of nothing which is ridiculous.
1) You assert, "it HAS to come from something or some one". OK, prove that to me.
2) If you can prove that, then what "something or someone" did god come from? Your insistence that god can just come from nowhere and/or be inifnite is in contradiction with any answer you could come with for queston 1.
Darwin used that later fact and others to develop the theory of evolution. That theory explains how the fossils got where they are and why mice's, man's and monkey's DNA are similar. DNA evidence, wasn't known when Darwin developed evolutionary theory, but fully support it. That takes us to "God may appear one day". That statement just means that we don't know yet, like DNA, but we're still learning.
Natural selection cannot produce new genes. It only selects from pre-existing characteristics. Naturalists often assume that where there is change within a species (observed fact) that change between kingdoms must therefore occur (unobserved hypothesis). This is where your logic breaks down.
Wrong. Mutation is the source of new characteristics, and anyone who has made even a cursory study of evolution would know that mutation is a pre-requisite for evolution to occur. Mutation happens at a steady documentable rate caused by errors in cell division, chemicals and environmental radiation. I'm not even sure what you mean by change between kingdoms. Perhaps you are confusing the idea of genesis of new species?
Don't forget that for thousands of years we didn't know much of anything. The gods were the explanation. They were just theories and then the Jews turned them into one.
Morals, yes we as humans all have the same basic morals. The golden rule is a basic tenant of ALL religions, it's my basic belief. Culture, family and religion also play a hand in such things. How do you explain the debate over capitol punishment and abortion? I don't believe that abortion is even mentioned in the bible, but god sure is a big supporter of capitol punishment. I support woman's right to choose and I don't capitol punishment. I reasoned my beliefs. Your dogma.
forgetit...Capital punishment is the punishment by the established authority of a guilty person. Abortion is the murder of an innocent person. Huge difference.
As archeologists continue to do their thing, there are more and more holes in the bible as a historical text and it is very hard to prove something didn't happen. For example, as described in Exodus, how can that may people wander around in the desert for that long and we have no other evidence than the bible. Oh, hee, hee, god didn't want there to be any evidence. That's part of the belief system.
Hi AnswerThen, Yes, if God exists and miracles happen, but that exactly the point. As an atheist, I believe in chance and choice -- which is evolution, science.
For example, may I suggest that YOU made a choice in your life, to change it and a church can be a marvelous support system for that and YOU continue to make that choice because things are better.
AnswerThem & headybrew, I've enjoyed reading your conversation. AnswerThem what do you know of the history of the bible? For example, do you know the Old Testament was written before Jesus' time and the New testament is a collection of works written 70 to 120 yrs after? Sorry, I forgot that he died in his 30s, make that 40 to 90 years. Image someone sitting down to write out the fables from 2 or 3 or 4 generations away. We don't actually KNOW who wrote them.
Hi Forgetit...If God exists, don't you think He can oversee the writing of the Bible? If He truly is real, then He is all-knowing and all-wise. Somehow He entrusted fallible man with His message but He still oversaw its formation. Secular historians have not discarded the Bible as a historical document. There is much evidence within it to verify its truth.
You did, after all, post an un-provoked response to a video about denying the existence of the holy spirit. It is not enough for you to say that we really do believe, but we just say we don't because we are angry at god. That's silly. What if I said, "you really don't believe in god, you just say you do because you're lonely without him" ?
Take our thoughts. Where did they come from? Do you believe that they are merely chemical interchange in the brain and that's it? I don't. God made our incredible brains with not only the ability to think complex thoughts AND operate the amazingly detailed systems in our bodies.
Yes, that is what I believe. The words you use, "incredible ... complex ... amazingly" are judgments. They are your reaction. Just because you find something amazing doesn't mean that a supernatural being is the only explanation for its existence. Maybe we humans are just easily amazed. It says more who we are than how we came to be.
The only reason the athiests claim God is a megalomaniac is because they can't do what they want with their earthly lives. They can't have sex with multiple partners, they can't watch porn, they can't get smashed drunk, they can't be gay, they just whine and moan about it. Get over it. Where is the Hindu gods and buddha in all this? Why aren't they getting picked on...????? Just poor God, Jesus Christ and His Christians??
Hello, Heavenlyrikku. I suspect you are right, unfortunately. As I mentioned in my note to Sethwoolley, I've noticed so much anger coming from the atheists' camp. I am completely against the religion of Islam and view it as horribly destructive and controlling but I don't have the urge to yell obscenities at its followers.
The Lord is happy over justice but He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Instead, He delights when they turn from their sin and live. (Ezekiel 18:23, Lamentations 3:33, IIPeter 3:9)
Hi Sethwoolley, I am actually AnswerThem but I somehow got my username mixed up with my e-mail address! I think many atheists are angry at God and therefore claim that He doesn't exist. Why is there so much anger expressed toward Him if He supposedly does not exist?
The anger is not at god. Its at theists who constantly tell us they're morally superior, and then vote for people like Bush who's wars have killed more americans than every attack in north america since 1968, and who won't lift a finger to build hospitals and schools. His daddy said that we are not even citizens. We have your beliefs shoved down our throats all the time, and you are the only ones allowd to be offended?
"How can you respect that angry arrogant jealous prick that kills babies, condones salvery and the taking of virgins as war prizes, and can't, despite his omnipotence, manage to forgive our "sins" without demanding a human sacrifice first?
You should read your own bible before you decide that he is deserving of respect. " These were your words when you first posted a comment here. That sounds like anger toward God to me.
You must understand that it is impossible to be angry at something that doesn't exist. It is your bible that describes god and his nature. I'm just callin' it like I see it. And if you re-read the whole discussion, you'll see that I taking it hypothetically if god really did exist as the bible describes him.
Hello Headybrew...it's maybe a "denial" thing...the part about being angry about God but claiming that He doesn't exist. Anyway, our conversation about my morals is going around in circles. You say my morals don't come from the Bible. I say yes they do, both directly(my own understanding) and indirectly (our godly heritage). We're obviously not getting anywhere with this.
Well, I shouldn't really expect the conversation to go very far. You have to be open to new understanding and willing to question things. You're not understanding my questions in the first place, let alone attempting to answer them. I would really like to know why so many different readers of the same bible have such different morals? Did God just fail to explain it well? And why do christians in my culture have almost the same morals as me, an atheist?
I have no doubt that that is one of the small places where our morals differ. If you intend to say "aha! Then our morals are not the same", I suggest you look at the amount of similarity between us relative to the amount of similarity between you and the Amish for example. Which culture you grew up in determines your morals far more than your choice of religion does.
I believe in Judeo-Christian morals, just as the Amish do. How do you compare with our beliefs against pornography, homosexuality, carousing and partying, divorce (with the exception of abusive cases), abortion, and lewd attire?
Oh, please. You're going to tell me your beliefs are closer to the amish than to others in your own culture? When's the last time you flipped a light switch? Been to any barn-raisings lately? You're avoiding the point. People of similar cultures have similar morals. Not exactly the same, but similar. People of different cultures who read the same bible usually have very different morals. Explain that please.
Electricity for them might be a moral issue. But barn raising? I wouldn't say barn raising has anything to do with morals. You have avoided my questions about your morals. I suspect you and I differ greatly, but you're not willing to tell me what your morals are. How can we verify if we differ or agree, if you won't tell me what your morals are?
I never said my morals are perfectly identical to yours. You are trying to set up a straw-man argument, saying our morals are different. I have acknowledged that from the start. The point is they are almost certainly more similar to yours than people from other cultures who read the same bible you do. You know that is true. Stop trying to avoid that fact, and start explaining it. Do people's morals come from the book, or from their culture? I've offered evidence that you can't seem to refute.
headybrew...You keep insisting that your morals and mine are more similar than mine are to Christians around the world. Can you give me a specific exmple? I was raised in Central America. Christians there believe the way I do here, as an American.
I have given copious examples already. Puritans, Amish, Calvinist. All read the same bible you do. I didn't metion catholics because you indicated that you aren't catholic, and they have a few extra books in their bible. Are you going to tell me that your morals are more similar to the Amish than to a typical modern day Americans' ?
The Bible is very clear, in any language: "Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshippers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers will not have a share in the kingdom of God."
I do not believe that I am morally superior to anyone. I have been just as guilty of immorality as anyone, so I have no reason to boast in myself at all. But, as John the Baptist said of Jesus, He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Not only does God forgive those who soften their hearts but He also empowers us to live according to His will.
Please don't take it personally, I'm speaking of theists in general. As I have said repeatedly, I believe that you are a sincere and caring person, insofar as I can see from our limited contact here on youtube.
It really is amazing how He changes our desires. After I became a real Christian (not by name only), He took away the desire to do the immoral things I was doing before.
I have no doubt that you changed, just as a headache might go away if you are convinced that the placebo you took really was an asprin tablet. But to get back to the point, I solidly believe that your morals do not come from god or any other absolute source. Remember my question about the puritans and others? Why don't you try to answer it?
You think that my changed life is all in my head and yet I am convinced that it is a result of God's power in my life. There have been too many answered prayers in my life to believe that God isn't real.
One important question I have for you. Are you willing to be wrong about God? I know I was almost completely unwilling to disbelieve in God until I challenged myself to prove atheists were wrong about their objections to my view. I am still very open to changing my mind. I just can't go where reason doesn't seem to lead me. I don't want to deconvert people. I want people come to conclusions based on reason and evidence instead of holding a belief first and making rationalizations to justify it.
AnswerThem, you missed the point with the blasphemy challenge. You are suppose to denounce the Holy spirit not give a sermon. Erase this and try again it's not hard. Thousands have done it before you and succeeded. you'll get it right eventually.
This is my understanding from reading the Bible: God is hard on those who have hard hearts towards Him. He is gentle with those who have soft, humble hearts. "A bruised reed He will not break."
I have been enjoying our conversation, Anne. Did you disappear? I have been on vacation this past week in Maine, Massachusetts and New Hampshire, where I visited family and many historic sites, including the Old North Church and the famous grave sites of Boston and of Famous authors such as Thoreau, Hawthorne and also Jack Kerouac... But now I'm back if you'd like to continue our discussion. :)
Hello Headybrew! I'm sorry for dropping out of the conversation for such a long while there. I've been OVERWHELMED with work. I'm a homeshooling mom and I've been taking a college course. That's not to mention all the activities around the house!
The most decisive quote is in Matthew(NT) 25:35-45, which is an invitation and demand for all people to prove their real love and value by precise deeds. It's a perfect and fair test; believers can't use their (single) belief in god as reason enough to enter his kingdom, and atheists can't use their disbelief for amnesty. Please don't miss to give homeless in the streets to eat in person sometimes, Ma'am, and You and all the people You encourage have already passed the test. Good luck!
Ozatheist...This is strictly my point of view from understanding the Bible: God is more than we are. What I mean is that His standard is higher than ours. He is more knowledgeable than we are concerning every situation. His discipline is harsher than ours is, as parents. But His love is more abundant than ours is too. Since He is omniscient, He knows everyone's motives. He is perfectly just (much more than we are), and He is more liberal with His mercy than we are with ours.
If my father molested me, of course his fault. He did it, so it's his fault. It's independent of the source of morals. Molestion is wrong in every culture, whether they're judeo-christian-islamic or not. If a priest molests an alter boy, is it his fault? Same answer. He knows it's wrong, whether the rule was written in a book or just part of his culture. The morals came first. They were written in the book later. If monkeys could write, perhaps they'd carve their morals in stone too.
I cannot understand how intelligent people can believe that a life's complexity began from non-life! The truth is, both you and I go beyond science in our beliefs.
If your premise is that a complex thing must have a creator, then who created god? God is a very complex thing, after all. If god doesn't need a creator then why does the universe need one? Perhaps more importantly, complexity is a human judgement. Anything we can't understand we consider complex. We think a creator is needed, just because we can't understand it. Isn't that a bit arrogant? Maybe we're just not smart enough to understand it.
True. In the same way that existence of God and the infinity of God is outside of Science, so is the infinity of the Universe. Something is infinite. You are making the assumption that it is the Universe. I am making the assumption that it is God. We are each living according to beliefs that are based on assumptions, not science.
I'm not necessarily asserting that th universe is infinite. I think that it is perfectly OK to simply say that I don't know the answer. The important point here is what's called the "fallacy of the infinite creators". You are assuming that anything as complex as a universe needs a creator. If so, then who created god? If god is simply infinite, then why couldn't the universe be too, and thus not need a creator?
Whose moral standard? My own of course. Don't you live by your own moral standard? We all do things every day that offend others. And standards change over time. Some cultures would be offended by the fact that you are showing your naked face on video on the internet. Are you worried about offending those cultures?
No, I don't live by my own moral standard. I used to think it was OK to lie every now and then, afterall, everyone does it. It wasn't until I gave my life to Christ that He changed my conviction about that. I know that some of my actions offend others but if my actions are in accordance with God's will, then it's OK because He is the highest authority.
You are the one who chose the bible's moral standard, just as we all choose from among what's presented to us. The bible is just one of many ways that culture is taught to us. We each take what works for us from what's presented to us. You chose the bible. And you undoubtedly interpret it in a way that work for you. Your interpretation. Your chosen moral standard.
To say that science backs up your belief up is not accurate. It bothers me when I hear the term "science vs faith", as if you have proof which supports the infinity of the universe, abiogenesis, and evolution. Definitely, these three concepts are still hypotheses. With what we know from history about changing information within the field of science, why are these suppositions presented as facts?
You're not reading very carefully. Nothing is presented as fact. All answers are provisional, awaiting the discovery of contradictory evidence. Science does not postulate an infinite universe. Current theory is that it has a beginning. But before you can even ask that, you have to define time itself. If these concepts are merely hypotheses, then what makes god anything more than that? What is your evidence that transforms your god hypothesis into a "proven fact"?
Speaking of moral standard, once again...do you think, then, that it's OK for a 12 year old to shoot up heroine because he thinks it's OK? What if he's your son? You're OK with sleeping around. How's that different from being a prostitute? (Actually, a prostitute at least values herself a little more since she charges). What if your spouse thinks it's OK to cheat on you? You just accept this as moral differences and accept it? I'm trying to understand your way of thinking.
Why do you keep assuming that I make my morals up as I go along? I'd bet you and I have surprisingly similar morals, since we grew up in similar cultures. Please stop assuming that I have no morals. I find it very insulting. Your morals came from the same place mine did. God didn't invent morals. Humans invented god, and ascribed their own morals to him. Each generation re-interprets the bible to make it support their chosen morals. Have you eaten shrimp lately?
I'm also sorry that I offended you with my statement. I do not assume that you do not have any morals. I'm just trying to understand your essential moral beliefs. When I became a Christian some of my morals stayed the same but some changed.
OK. But please understand, I am saying that our morals, yours and mine, come from the same place: the society we grew up in. You say yours come from the bible, but so do the Mennonites. Yet they won't ride in a motorized vehicle. If yours come from the same bible, then why the difference? Because the bible is not the source of your morals. Your society's interpretation is. You interpret it in a way that works in your society. I choose morals that work in mine. Social instincts are the source.
True. Many of our morals came from our godly foundation (as a nation). There will be differences over the small stuff amongst Christians We all agree on the basics of the Gospel, though: that Jesus is God who came in the flesh and because of His love, gave His life to redeem us. I'm curious, do you have a religious background?
Strange! I just noticed that my username has been changed. I'm going to have to change it back. I must have done something goofy. GiveAnAnswer is part of our e-mail address. Oh well.
The Bible is now the source of my morals. I was taught that lying was wrong so I rarely spoke bold-faced lies. But after I came to know Jesus personally, my conviction that lying was wrong went to a much deeper level. Any form of deception is wrong...cheating on taxes/insurance forms..."white" lies... misleading information of every kind. I knew I had to come clean with God and others.
No, the bible is not the source of your morals. You may think it is, but it is just plain isn't. If it were, then you'd have the same morals as the Puritans who lived several hundred years ago. But I doubt that you do. How do you explain the difference if you both are reading the same bible?
Hello again, Headybrew. I've been so busy. How are my morals different from the Puritans' morals? Originally, my parents, who are not born-again Christians but traditionalists, taught me morals which originated from the Bible.
TheolOgic...thanks for your comment. Sometimes people think that mankind is so good. Mankind has done some good things but our main motivating force is selfishness.
Again, I have no doubt that you are a kind and loving person, who means well. But you have been mis-informed by your religious leaders. When you ask their guidance, as you probably did this sunday morning before answering me, they will point you to what they want you to see. You should instead look yourself at the *whole* bible. Not just what they tell you to look at.
Let's say your god does exist. One day he talks to moses from a burning bush. And moses comes to the people and says, "well the bush burned without being consumed. It must have been god. And this god told me we can kill all our enemies and take their female children as our war prizes." Now my question is this. Supposing that this really did happen, should we trust Moses judgement that his was a loving god and not a demon posing as one?
As far as trusting Moses...Good question. It is important to seek God diligently, lest we become deceived. We do have to trust that if God created us, that He has also already communicated with mankind, revealing His character and His purpose, and thus, our purpose. It's good to study all religions, if need be, to find the true way to God. Jesus, though, was very exclusive of other "paths". He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Oh and BTW, to all the other 'Chicas' and 'Chicos' out there, being good just because you fear Hell is like not stealing just because there are surveillance cameras. Pure hypocrisy.
ZZzzzzzWhat 7 months ago
You have so much ignorance about the bible that it is trully insulting. Try reading the whole bible instead of having someone reading to you the 'convenient parts' every sunday.
If you doubt me i can provide you all the biblical passages where god endorses slavery, incest, rape, infanticide, mass murder, torture..
And yes i have read the entire bible.
ZZzzzzzWhat 8 months ago
@ZZzzzzzWhat Are we questioning God's morality? you who are human and do not know the heart of anyone. Have you ever considered for one second that God makes his decisions due to his knowledge base which is endless. You cannot reasonably condemn God for anything being that your knowledge base is limited and his is not. God's morality does not equate to a human beings morality. Two completely different categories. It is not possible for you to reasonably put restraint on God, it's ignorance.
chica0616 7 months ago
@chica0616 How do you know so much about god chica? If you say he is benevolent based on the scriptura why can't i say he is cruel and megalomaniac? Should i ignore all the incest, infanticide, slavery, rape? should i be insensitive so i can blindly praise to god? ignorance is saying that god is this or that without even read the bible(thora,q'ran), ignorance is believing in talking a snake and donkey, believing in 9000 y old men, a 6000 y old Earth supported by pillars and has edges.
ZZzzzzzWhat 7 months ago
The only reason u are moral Chica, is because u live under SECULAR morality, because if u lived under a Theocracy you could has easily stone your neighbor if he works on Sunday, stone your disobedient child, stone another man's impure wife at her father's doorstep(read bible). You might find that improbable but look at Iran, Afghanistan, Indonesia, they live under the religious morality (sharia) and they stone people to death all the time, because their moral holly book tells them to do so.
ZZzzzzzWhat 7 months ago
I love Bin Laden!
OBMB 1 year ago
god loves to give gifts to his people.... like drowning all but noah and his family.... yea. great gift. i see your point. clearly.
soggy9 1 year ago
"Is He willing to stop evil but not able? Then he is impotent. Is He able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is He both willing and able? Whence came evil?"
Crazyfistthehero 1 year ago
Does your view of god's laws (you hold as perfect) include the terrible tortures and death he commands for minor transgressions in the old Testament? Have you read the OT? What about his condemnation to HELL of nonbelievers in new testament?
Could you as mother damn your own children as evil at birth and hold a blow torch to them (non-stop) if they didn't believe you were their mother? isn't this a lot like what scripture says your god does? How do you consider this moral, let alone perfect?
socksumi 2 years ago
I think you need to study the bible before you blast someone else!
991med 2 years ago
With all due respect AnswerThem, you have posted a sincere video describing your perceptions of a benevolent and loving god. But I submit that you are viewing Christianity through rose colored glasses. If you consider yourself a scholarly Christian you must know what is written in scripture. Passage after passage of horrible atrocities all ordered or carried out by "god". How do you reconcile this?
Many who take the "blasphemy challenge" also question much of Christianity's morality as well.
socksumi 2 years ago
Like the commentor below, you seem very nice and like a good mom you want the best for your children and family. The problem is that a lot of believer gloss over the evil stuff in the bible. The only way you can seriously believe the bible to be God's perfect word is if you never read it.
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
(continue) Gods laws are perfect and that's proof that they come from a perfect God? Ummm...Please bust open that book and start with Genesis and read. We are talking about a book that claims that a man who rapes a woman is to marry the vicitm. We are talking about a book that calls for the death penalty for people who work on the sabbath and that married couples who have sex while the woman is on the rag is an abomination unto the lord. These aren't perfect laws by far Lady.
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
(continued) Look up the various abominations unto God. Some are understandable but most make no sense.
Here are but a few: Homosexuality, working on the sabbath, men who trim their beards, planting 2 types of seed in the same row, eating shrimp, wearing clothes made of 2 or more types of fibers, witchcraft, idol worship, and having sex with one's wife when she is on the rag. These are all equally abhorrent to god. Please! Eat at Red Lobster and be damned! LOL
BoyintheMachine 2 years ago
I believe you are a nice person however, the bible was written by man ._. sorry,
Daclunator 2 years ago
I deny God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I am proud to be an unbeliever. Religion feeds on broken spirits.
bnbalenda 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
1 Timothy 2: 11-12
A woman must listen in silence and be completely submissive. I do not permit a woman to act as teacher, or in anyway to have authority over a man; she must be quiet.
JohnDCrawford 3 years ago
this has been hilarious
igottaexplain 3 years ago
"The Bible is useful for one purpose only, as a convenient package for perfectly thin ass wipe."
-Kent Hovind
ColoradoMikeyS 3 years ago
If you dont understand the arguments, dont enter the debate. The argument of god as a megalomaniac is meant to show that he is a human invention plagued by human faults. It is not meant as an argument as to why we "deny"/dislike him.
The athiest position is, there is no god(s), just as there is no teapot orbiting the star sirius. We cant conclusively prove that the teapot isnt there, we just think its absurd to asume there is.
The B.C. shows we are not afraid of myths, even big scary ones.
Duke0James 3 years ago
Fuck, lady, you're an idiot. You actually watched that debate and didn't see Ray and Kirk as fucking insane? You need to get your head checked, ASAP.
Uglytastic 3 years ago
"Fuck, lady, you're an idiot."
C'mon man. She is one of the nicest Christians I have seen on you tube. It's like talking smack to your mother. It's ok to criticize but you don't need to get hostile on the innocent.
But your right Ray and Kirk are pretty insane for even VFX to support. They totally lost the debate hands down.
LotusGreenX 3 years ago 2
Jeez! We have science now, and we know that no gods can exist. They would break the laws of physics. Get over it, read some science instead of ancient fairy-tales.
winterstellar 3 years ago
Good video, Anne! I would like to see you make some more if you could! God bless you, and your family.
Brightstar27 3 years ago
Stupid. where did God come from. When those who don't believe in Christ cannot even account for where they themselves come from. LOL, boy is man stupid when they serve the devil.
juanitahill265 4 years ago
Great video!!
JohnBlz1 4 years ago
Bless you sister for doing Gods work. Matt 10:16 Behold i send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
cliftonmay 4 years ago
Cliftonmay...Thank you for your encouragement! In Christ, there is sweet fellowship. Speaking of wisdom, I love the verse where Jesus said, "Wisdom will be known by her children." I used to wonder what in the world He meant by that. Now I know...when it's all said and done, our wise choices will be proven to have been right.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
a quote by the Nobel Prize winning American physicist Steven Weinberg:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
headybrew 4 years ago
Very true, and then they become evil for what they see as a good cause. How can good people, believer or Atheist, convince the religious fanatic that what they believe as a faith should not give them any right to forcefully attempt to change the minds of others. Lets keep to peaceful discussion.
shepard20 4 years ago
shepard20...Who has forcefully attempted to change your mind? They actually used force?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Don't tell me the religious bombers just do their stuff for the hell of it! Of course, you can't force belief on anyone.
shepard20 4 years ago
AnswerThem, Capitol punishment is still taking a person's life. Why is that OK?
forgetit111111 4 years ago
And if stem cell research is wrong because it leads to killing blasto-cysts, then why is artificial insemination OK, when it kills thousands of them all the time?
headybrew 4 years ago
I will look into your statement about blasto-cysts and artificial insemination. Interesting. I didn't know that.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
about 30,000 blastocysts are frozen every year in US fertility clinics. The vast majority of them are destroyed after the family has succeeded in having children. They are considered waste. Mr. Bush and the christian right won't let them be used to save lives via stem cell research. That would be killing babies! And killing is illegal. Unless it's done in a fertillity clinic. Or Iraq.
headybrew 4 years ago
Headybrew...thanks for the info on blastocysts. I haven't looked into it yet.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
about blastocysts, I'd be very curious to hear oyur opinion on that. If stem cell research is wrong because it kills blastocysts, then is in-vitro fertilization wrong too because it kills many times more blastocysts?
headybrew 4 years ago
All genuine Christians have come to a place of change in their lives. They have turned from their former lifestyles and with God's power, live a new life free from the bondage to those sins. This happens all around the world. What evidence have you offered?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
You are avoiding the subject. Why are your morals not exactly the same as the puritans, the Amish, the Quakers, the Calvinists, The modern christians of Isreal. You all read the same bible, yet you're morals are in many cases very different. If you can't stop avoiding the question and explain that, then you'll have to admit that morals don't come from god, and that it's possible for an atheist to have moral values.
headybrew 4 years ago
Why must people of any faith belive morals must come from "God". As a person who needs no faith to live a "good" life I needed no supernatural beling to tell me how to be good. Any how, the bible was written by man for the control of man with only help from his own imagination. For the truth, look to modern scientific fact and logic not historical hearsay please.
shepard20 4 years ago
Modern scientific fact? Give me some modern scientific fact which proves abiogenesis. Give me scientific fact which proves where all this matter came from. Athiests call it science but your beliefs are based on what begins as science but leaps to conjecture.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Lets discus this. Just as necessity is the mother of invention, we must start at a point of our own choosing. If we have an idea that something is true or false it is fair (by scientific means or otherwise) to attempt to prove the case. But you must be prepared to find your original belief incorrect and accept your findings. Just to have an idea and believe blindly can cause all kinds of distorted faiths as we see in the world today. Conjecture can only be the beginning of a path of discovery.
shepard20 4 years ago
Shepard...So you do admit that you are using conjecture to arrive at your conclusions? You are right, I do not want to blindly accept lies. What a fool I would be!!! But neither do I want to blindly follow what the so-called "experts" do not, as of yet, fully understand. Do you know, with complete assurance, how the universe began?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Do you require complete assurance? Science doesn't offer it, and never has pretended to. You yourself said below that your own theory has no proof either. So why hold science to a standard that you can't even achieve?
headybrew 4 years ago
I would love to have complete assurance. Yes, science does pretend to offer assurance. Read school/college textbooks. They present evolution as a fact. I would like scientists to have integrity here and state things as they really are...hypotheses.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
You are simply incorrect on this. One of the most fundamental tenets of science is that all conclusions are "provisional" and if new evidence contradicts them, then they must be abandoned in search of another theory that fits the known evidence. Any textbook that presents any theory as fact, rather than provisional conclusions is a poor textbook.
headybrew 4 years ago
If all that we "know" about science is "provisional", why do you atheists put so much stock in what scientists are saying?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Because they are backed by the preponderance of the evidence. Can you claim that about your theory?
headybrew 4 years ago
shepard...So, in a sense, you too are blindly believing in naturalism. Are you open to the truth, whatever that may be? What if the God of the Bible is true, are you willing to love and obey Him? I find that many atheists have a hatred of the Bible and God.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
If a person hates god, then he/she is by definition not an atheist. I know it's hard for you to accept it, but people who say they don't believe in god really don't believe in god. And one can't hate something that one doesn't believe in.
headybrew 4 years ago
re: abiogenesis, Are you implying that your religion has any PROOF that it's theory is right? If so, show me this proof. Intelligent design is, after all, only a theory. Let's compare your evidence to ours.
headybrew 4 years ago
No, we do not have proof. We do have what we consider evidence through nature but not proof. Neither do you. That's my point. The term "science vs faith" is very misleading and incorrect. The theory of evolution, along with the theory of abiogenesis and the discussion on the origin of the universe go beyond science into the realm of imagination. None of it can be proven with observable experiments (which is what science really is).
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Ah, no, we have FACTS. From facts we form theories to explain those facts. Overwhelmingly, the facts that archeologists, biologist, botanists, geneticists, scientists in general discover point to the truth of evolution theory. That we evolved over billions of years. There may be facts missing but it is still the best explanation for the facts that we have.
The Bible provides no facts just a story.
How the universe began, we may never know. That is a different theory. The Big Bang theory.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
Oh, yea, scientists will keep calling it a theory because God may appear one day and say "Yep, I designed so that it looks like you evolved."
forgetit111111 4 years ago
"God may appear one day" You admit that there is that possibility. This shows me that science has not provided the assurance of which we speak. Yet how often do naturalists act like they're backed by scientific facts? I'm just wanting to be accurate in our thinking here.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
forgetit...Shouldn't the facts explain the theories? Facts need no explanation. If they are established as facts, they are observable and testable. Theories are not. Once they are, they are no longer theories, but facts.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
AnswerThem
"God may appear one day" - Sorry, a joke.
Yes and no, facts are used to develop theories, which explain the facts. Some examples, we have many fossils of animals that don't exist anymore, a fact. We (men/women) have DNA that is very similar to that of a monkey or a mouse; parts of the DNA are identical, a fact. Darwin noticed that finches developed different beaks on different islands to eat differing foods on those islands.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
forgetit...Let's talk about DNA. "DNA cannot function without at least 75 preexisting proteins, but proteins are produced by only DNA" This quotation is taken from Dr. Walt Brown's "In The Beginning". Fascinating, purely scientific book which provides evidence for creation. Check him out on-line.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Quoting from a book that states that plate tectonics does not occur. That's funny! Rotflol, as my daughter would say. Also from it, "Isolated rocks in space are meteoroids. Drag forces caused by water vapor and thrust forces produced by the radiometer effect concentrated asteroids in what is now the asteroid belt." Again, fotflol, meteoroids don't become meteoroids until they enter a planets atmosphere. A radiometer is a device for measuring. What drivel!
forgetit111111 4 years ago
It used to be "We could not have come from monkeys!", now it's "Let's talk about DNA". I don't know enough about DNA, but I stand with most scientists.
Theists have had years to develop replies to the Bible's insanity. They even have a term for it, Christian Apologists! Now, theists have to defend against science with groups like the Discovery Institute that that put out books and papers like the one you quote.
So, do you support Intelligent Design, creationism or a 6000 year old earth?
forgetit111111 4 years ago
forgetit, The true sadness here is that Anne (no offense intended) and those like her just don't have the ability to see the unbelievably obvious flaws in the arguments they are exposed to from book, media and their peers. They will read things that are beyond ridiculous and by it hook, line and sinker, because they have no factual knowledge of the universe to test it against.
headybrew 4 years ago
Unfortunately most believers are raised in their family's faith and never question it. "The bible is true, read it, have faith!" Ok, but were did it come from? God caused to be written. Ok, but... And they cannot get to that next, Ok, but... Yes, it is just a collection of fables.
And don't forget that the church can be powerful place. They have family, friends and counselors there and it can be a large part of their life. It's not easy to give that up.
Hope we haven't scared her away.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
forgetit, Indeed, it's not easy to give that up. I was raised in a christian family, and I know what it's like to go through a period of asking what replaces those things when you stop believing. The question about morals that Anne asks is valid too, and must be dealt with when transitioning from that brain-washed state. But there comes a time when we realize that the truth is more important than the social network. The social network can be replaced. But the truth can not.
headybrew 4 years ago
Headybrew...the discussion we are having about morals is not the most important issue to me, as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Knowing my Maker, not just knowing about Him, is my purpose. I love the truth. If I am in error, then I need to change. You act as if you have all the answers and yet that is simply not true. Let's talk about First Cause. What do you believe is/was the First Cause? It comes down to your guesswork, or in my case, faith!
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Are you going to claim that there must be a first cause? This sort of argument always goes the same way. You say the universe needs a creator. I say "who created the creator." You say "the creator is infinite." I say, "if the creator needs no creator, then why can't the universe just be infinite too?" Let's not waste our time talking about the fallacy of the infinite creators. If you insist that there must be a first cause, then you have to justify your god having no first cause.
headybrew 4 years ago
Hi Headybrew...yes, we are going aound in circles but I'm trying to pinpoint the supposed differences that you claim are between me and other Bible believers. And what about all those similarities between you and me? You've already admitted that you drink, have sex outside of marriage, and lie. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do you mind repeating the supposed "plenty of examples" you talked about? We don'tcelebrate Halloween, do you?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
No, I'd rather not repeat myself. This is pointless. I could mention them again, but we've been in an infinite loop on this one. You obviously have good answer for me on this one, therefore I believe I have proven that you're morals do not come directly from your bible as you believe they do. Q. E. D.
headybrew 4 years ago
headybrew...The question I have asked you about morals has not yet been answered. You claim that your morals and mine are more similar than those of mine and other Christians around the world. What facts do you have to back up that statement?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Well, we're going in circles on this one. I've provided plenty of examples. If you're actually claiming that your morals are more similar to the Amish or the Puritans than to an average citizen of today's western hemisphere, then there is not point in discussing it. I thought you were the one with all the answers. Can you explain the differences between your morals and the many sects I've mentioned or not?
headybrew 4 years ago
I'm sorry, but for the sake of clarity, I need you to list our moral similarities as opposed to my differences with other believers. Either your statement is true and can be backed up with facts, or it's nonsense.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Yes, headybrew, we must seek the truth. Jesus said, "If you continue in my Word you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Maybe He was a crazy man. Maybe He was a liar. But maybe He was speaking the truth. I've chosen to believe that what He said is true. Have you taken the time to study His words?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
I suspect I'm more familiar with them than you are, based on our discussions. I spent my youth in church every sunday, Baptist youth fellowships in evenings, vacation bible school in summers, etc... I attended christian summer camps too, and my camp councilors even wrote home to tell my parents how well I knew the bible. Fortunately, I eventually found the real truth. Which you could too if your mind were open to it.
headybrew 4 years ago
I might sound hard on you guys sometimes, but I have no hard feelings. I love you and pray for you. :)
AnswerThem 4 years ago
forgetit...Hi. No, you have not scared me away. Jesus said that we must love the Lord with all our minds, as well as our hearts, souls, and all our strength. Secular historians value the Bible as historical record. Are you disregarding that fact?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
AnswerThem, Hi, I think most Secular historians and archeologists would more likely consider it a historical novel, like Michener's Hawaii. It's so old that it's hard to confirm or deny. But, let's look, first we would throw out anything supernatural, we are trying to be RATIONAL, you said secular. None of the stories of Jesus' raising can be reconciled with the others. Was the rock in front of the cave or not? But, those stories would get thrown out with the irrational stuff.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
Hi forgetit...Look at how much of the Bible supports and is supported by other historical documents. There is the Epic of Gilgamesh, along with countless flood stories in cultures around the globe. There are numerous documents (such as the Ebla tablets, the Cyrus Cylinder, the Elephantine Papyri and MANY others) which verify many of the historical events spoken of in the Bible.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Congratulations, you've just proven that the bible is just one of many works of recorded folk history.
headybrew 4 years ago
AnswerThem, Where is the evidence that Moses wandered around for 40 years? No evidence for that many people living in the desert for that long. That's a lot of people eating, living, and dying. No evidence that supports that many people. Believe me, they have looked.
There other stories that are supported and other's that are opposed. Merely finding the name of someone in the bible in other records doesn't mean that person performed the acts described in the bible.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
True, the supernatural events cannot be proven with actual physical evidence, but the details in the Bible cannot be completely discarded just because they are supernatural. Since they are "clothed" in actual historical events, they must be studied carefully. I'm not an expert in this field, but I'm learning more and more about it. It really comes down to faith.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
as you say, it comes down to faith. I'll happily accept that the bible has some history in it, and that much of it is accurate. But the proves nothing about the existence of god. Nothing. Nada. Zip. It's exactly EXACTLY the same thing as assuming that the Illiad and the Oddysey are proof of the existence of the Greek Pantheon.
headybrew 4 years ago
I think what the Bble offers as evidence of God in scripture is the life of Jesus. You could go into my favourites and have a look at some of the videos by Lee Strobel (a former athiest by the way) who puts forward many evidences to support the accuracy of scripture etc.
If scripture is accurate, are the events recorded about Jesus (miracle working etc) also accurate and reliable? Is there bias in people's disbelief? These questions are comlpetley retohrical.
Brightstar27 3 years ago
We cannot trust solely in our minds, since we are limited (not only in the knowledge we've been given but also in our mental capacity). But like I said to headybrew, you believe the alternative without there being "proof" either.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
AnswerThem -- Yes, you know more than I re the bible's contents. The unfortunate thing is that you, excuse me for saying this, were indoctrinated, as most people are. Around the world people are indoctrinated to the local faith.
Have you thought about the time/context in which it was written?
forgetit111111 4 years ago
We know there were many sects (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, Jews, Nazarenes, Ebionites, Gnostics, ...) with many beliefs before Constantine essentially created the Catholic faith. Why did he do that? To consolidate his Power! What happened next? Muhammad invented Allah. Then wars....
If you are not afraid, study the history.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
Have you looked at science?
Science says that we stand on a planet that may be approx 4.5-6 billion years old; circling a star on the edge of the Milky Way which science claims contains more that 200 billion stars. Ours is not the biggest! And it's just one of what may be millions of galaxies. They are still counting. Amazing! Why would a god care about insignificant me?
forgetit111111 4 years ago
"We cannot trust solely in our minds"
The "heart" doesn't exist without the brain controling it. But regardless of that, the bible even says the heart is deceitful and if you look around the world people's "hearts" have led them to all sorts of religions. Objetive logic and evidence is #1 if you care about your beliefs being true.
But do you think you should stone your child for disobeying you like it commands the Jews in the OT? Or was that God's subjective morality for the time?
LotusGreenX 3 years ago
I like how you are one of the few Christians on you tube who are actually pretty kind and compassionate when talking about atheists. I would love to talk to you and even though I can be bold against Christians I am sympathetic towards ones who are honest and kind because I use to be a Christian myself.
LotusGreenX 3 years ago
I have 2 children (8 and 10) and I often tell them that they cannot believe in Christ simply because I do. They must study and seek God for themselves. I teach them what the Bible says but I also tell them about how atheists don't believe He even exists. I tell them that most people hate Christ (even though many of them call themselves Christians) and that if they choose to follow Him they will also be hated in the world. So they must be careful to choose wisely.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
They should seek the truth. Even if the truth is not god. From what You've said I'd be very surprised if you are giving them a good un-biased view, and good factual information upon which to make their decision. They are being brainwashed. Very sad. Tell me, do you teach them all about Hinduism and Shintoism and Buddhism and ... The apples don't fall far from the tree. That's why you turned out to follow more-or-less the same flavor of belief as your parents. And so shall your children.
headybrew 4 years ago
True, I can't explain/prove where God came from. It boggles my mind! It is equally boggling to think that all the material things around us came from nothing! It HAS to come from something or someone!!! You cannot say that what I believe is just foolishness. Either you believe that all this has always existed (which is not intellectually satisfying) or that it appeared out of nothing which is ridiculous.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
1) You assert, "it HAS to come from something or some one". OK, prove that to me.
2) If you can prove that, then what "something or someone" did god come from? Your insistence that god can just come from nowhere and/or be inifnite is in contradiction with any answer you could come with for queston 1.
headybrew 4 years ago
Darwin used that later fact and others to develop the theory of evolution. That theory explains how the fossils got where they are and why mice's, man's and monkey's DNA are similar. DNA evidence, wasn't known when Darwin developed evolutionary theory, but fully support it. That takes us to "God may appear one day". That statement just means that we don't know yet, like DNA, but we're still learning.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
Natural selection cannot produce new genes. It only selects from pre-existing characteristics. Naturalists often assume that where there is change within a species (observed fact) that change between kingdoms must therefore occur (unobserved hypothesis). This is where your logic breaks down.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Wrong. Mutation is the source of new characteristics, and anyone who has made even a cursory study of evolution would know that mutation is a pre-requisite for evolution to occur. Mutation happens at a steady documentable rate caused by errors in cell division, chemicals and environmental radiation. I'm not even sure what you mean by change between kingdoms. Perhaps you are confusing the idea of genesis of new species?
headybrew 4 years ago
Don't forget that for thousands of years we didn't know much of anything. The gods were the explanation. They were just theories and then the Jews turned them into one.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
Morals, yes we as humans all have the same basic morals. The golden rule is a basic tenant of ALL religions, it's my basic belief. Culture, family and religion also play a hand in such things. How do you explain the debate over capitol punishment and abortion? I don't believe that abortion is even mentioned in the bible, but god sure is a big supporter of capitol punishment. I support woman's right to choose and I don't capitol punishment. I reasoned my beliefs. Your dogma.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
forgetit...Capital punishment is the punishment by the established authority of a guilty person. Abortion is the murder of an innocent person. Huge difference.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
As archeologists continue to do their thing, there are more and more holes in the bible as a historical text and it is very hard to prove something didn't happen. For example, as described in Exodus, how can that may people wander around in the desert for that long and we have no other evidence than the bible. Oh, hee, hee, god didn't want there to be any evidence. That's part of the belief system.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
Hi AnswerThen, Yes, if God exists and miracles happen, but that exactly the point. As an atheist, I believe in chance and choice -- which is evolution, science.
For example, may I suggest that YOU made a choice in your life, to change it and a church can be a marvelous support system for that and YOU continue to make that choice because things are better.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
AnswerThem & headybrew, I've enjoyed reading your conversation. AnswerThem what do you know of the history of the bible? For example, do you know the Old Testament was written before Jesus' time and the New testament is a collection of works written 70 to 120 yrs after? Sorry, I forgot that he died in his 30s, make that 40 to 90 years. Image someone sitting down to write out the fables from 2 or 3 or 4 generations away. We don't actually KNOW who wrote them.
forgetit111111 4 years ago
Hi Forgetit...If God exists, don't you think He can oversee the writing of the Bible? If He truly is real, then He is all-knowing and all-wise. Somehow He entrusted fallible man with His message but He still oversaw its formation. Secular historians have not discarded the Bible as a historical document. There is much evidence within it to verify its truth.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
You did, after all, post an un-provoked response to a video about denying the existence of the holy spirit. It is not enough for you to say that we really do believe, but we just say we don't because we are angry at god. That's silly. What if I said, "you really don't believe in god, you just say you do because you're lonely without him" ?
headybrew 4 years ago
Take our thoughts. Where did they come from? Do you believe that they are merely chemical interchange in the brain and that's it? I don't. God made our incredible brains with not only the ability to think complex thoughts AND operate the amazingly detailed systems in our bodies.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Yes, that is what I believe. The words you use, "incredible ... complex ... amazingly" are judgments. They are your reaction. Just because you find something amazing doesn't mean that a supernatural being is the only explanation for its existence. Maybe we humans are just easily amazed. It says more who we are than how we came to be.
headybrew 4 years ago
The only reason the athiests claim God is a megalomaniac is because they can't do what they want with their earthly lives. They can't have sex with multiple partners, they can't watch porn, they can't get smashed drunk, they can't be gay, they just whine and moan about it. Get over it. Where is the Hindu gods and buddha in all this? Why aren't they getting picked on...????? Just poor God, Jesus Christ and His Christians??
heavenlyrikku 4 years ago
Hello, Heavenlyrikku. I suspect you are right, unfortunately. As I mentioned in my note to Sethwoolley, I've noticed so much anger coming from the atheists' camp. I am completely against the religion of Islam and view it as horribly destructive and controlling but I don't have the urge to yell obscenities at its followers.
giveananswer 4 years ago
Obey Psalms 137:9: "happy is he who dashes [Babylonian] babies against the rocks."
sethwoolley 4 years ago
The Lord is happy over justice but He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Instead, He delights when they turn from their sin and live. (Ezekiel 18:23, Lamentations 3:33, IIPeter 3:9)
giveananswer 4 years ago
Hi Sethwoolley, I am actually AnswerThem but I somehow got my username mixed up with my e-mail address! I think many atheists are angry at God and therefore claim that He doesn't exist. Why is there so much anger expressed toward Him if He supposedly does not exist?
giveananswer 4 years ago
The anger is not at god. Its at theists who constantly tell us they're morally superior, and then vote for people like Bush who's wars have killed more americans than every attack in north america since 1968, and who won't lift a finger to build hospitals and schools. His daddy said that we are not even citizens. We have your beliefs shoved down our throats all the time, and you are the only ones allowd to be offended?
headybrew 4 years ago
"How can you respect that angry arrogant jealous prick that kills babies, condones salvery and the taking of virgins as war prizes, and can't, despite his omnipotence, manage to forgive our "sins" without demanding a human sacrifice first?
You should read your own bible before you decide that he is deserving of respect. " These were your words when you first posted a comment here. That sounds like anger toward God to me.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
You must understand that it is impossible to be angry at something that doesn't exist. It is your bible that describes god and his nature. I'm just callin' it like I see it. And if you re-read the whole discussion, you'll see that I taking it hypothetically if god really did exist as the bible describes him.
headybrew 4 years ago
Hello Headybrew...it's maybe a "denial" thing...the part about being angry about God but claiming that He doesn't exist. Anyway, our conversation about my morals is going around in circles. You say my morals don't come from the Bible. I say yes they do, both directly(my own understanding) and indirectly (our godly heritage). We're obviously not getting anywhere with this.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Well, I shouldn't really expect the conversation to go very far. You have to be open to new understanding and willing to question things. You're not understanding my questions in the first place, let alone attempting to answer them. I would really like to know why so many different readers of the same bible have such different morals? Did God just fail to explain it well? And why do christians in my culture have almost the same morals as me, an atheist?
headybrew 4 years ago
Headybrew...do you believe it's OK to have sex before or outside of marriage?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
yes.
I have no doubt that that is one of the small places where our morals differ. If you intend to say "aha! Then our morals are not the same", I suggest you look at the amount of similarity between us relative to the amount of similarity between you and the Amish for example. Which culture you grew up in determines your morals far more than your choice of religion does.
headybrew 4 years ago
I believe in Judeo-Christian morals, just as the Amish do. How do you compare with our beliefs against pornography, homosexuality, carousing and partying, divorce (with the exception of abusive cases), abortion, and lewd attire?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Oh, please. You're going to tell me your beliefs are closer to the amish than to others in your own culture? When's the last time you flipped a light switch? Been to any barn-raisings lately? You're avoiding the point. People of similar cultures have similar morals. Not exactly the same, but similar. People of different cultures who read the same bible usually have very different morals. Explain that please.
headybrew 4 years ago
Electricity for them might be a moral issue. But barn raising? I wouldn't say barn raising has anything to do with morals. You have avoided my questions about your morals. I suspect you and I differ greatly, but you're not willing to tell me what your morals are. How can we verify if we differ or agree, if you won't tell me what your morals are?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
I never said my morals are perfectly identical to yours. You are trying to set up a straw-man argument, saying our morals are different. I have acknowledged that from the start. The point is they are almost certainly more similar to yours than people from other cultures who read the same bible you do. You know that is true. Stop trying to avoid that fact, and start explaining it. Do people's morals come from the book, or from their culture? I've offered evidence that you can't seem to refute.
headybrew 4 years ago
headybrew...You keep insisting that your morals and mine are more similar than mine are to Christians around the world. Can you give me a specific exmple? I was raised in Central America. Christians there believe the way I do here, as an American.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
I have given copious examples already. Puritans, Amish, Calvinist. All read the same bible you do. I didn't metion catholics because you indicated that you aren't catholic, and they have a few extra books in their bible. Are you going to tell me that your morals are more similar to the Amish than to a typical modern day Americans' ?
headybrew 4 years ago
The Bible is very clear, in any language: "Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshippers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers will not have a share in the kingdom of God."
AnswerThem 4 years ago
I do not believe that I am morally superior to anyone. I have been just as guilty of immorality as anyone, so I have no reason to boast in myself at all. But, as John the Baptist said of Jesus, He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Not only does God forgive those who soften their hearts but He also empowers us to live according to His will.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Please don't take it personally, I'm speaking of theists in general. As I have said repeatedly, I believe that you are a sincere and caring person, insofar as I can see from our limited contact here on youtube.
headybrew 4 years ago
It really is amazing how He changes our desires. After I became a real Christian (not by name only), He took away the desire to do the immoral things I was doing before.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
I have no doubt that you changed, just as a headache might go away if you are convinced that the placebo you took really was an asprin tablet. But to get back to the point, I solidly believe that your morals do not come from god or any other absolute source. Remember my question about the puritans and others? Why don't you try to answer it?
headybrew 4 years ago
You think that my changed life is all in my head and yet I am convinced that it is a result of God's power in my life. There have been too many answered prayers in my life to believe that God isn't real.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Yes, I can see that you are convinced. That's very sad. It's a logical error on your part.
headybrew 4 years ago
One important question I have for you. Are you willing to be wrong about God? I know I was almost completely unwilling to disbelieve in God until I challenged myself to prove atheists were wrong about their objections to my view. I am still very open to changing my mind. I just can't go where reason doesn't seem to lead me. I don't want to deconvert people. I want people come to conclusions based on reason and evidence instead of holding a belief first and making rationalizations to justify it.
LotusGreenX 3 years ago
AnswerThem, you missed the point with the blasphemy challenge. You are suppose to denounce the Holy spirit not give a sermon. Erase this and try again it's not hard. Thousands have done it before you and succeeded. you'll get it right eventually.
gentlestormtoo 4 years ago
gentlestormtoo...No, this is exactly the point I wanted to make: God is a loving God. Mercy triumphs over justice.
giveananswer 4 years ago
This is my understanding from reading the Bible: God is hard on those who have hard hearts towards Him. He is gentle with those who have soft, humble hearts. "A bruised reed He will not break."
giveananswer 4 years ago
I have been enjoying our conversation, Anne. Did you disappear? I have been on vacation this past week in Maine, Massachusetts and New Hampshire, where I visited family and many historic sites, including the Old North Church and the famous grave sites of Boston and of Famous authors such as Thoreau, Hawthorne and also Jack Kerouac... But now I'm back if you'd like to continue our discussion. :)
headybrew 4 years ago
Hello Headybrew! I'm sorry for dropping out of the conversation for such a long while there. I've been OVERWHELMED with work. I'm a homeshooling mom and I've been taking a college course. That's not to mention all the activities around the house!
giveananswer 4 years ago
The most decisive quote is in Matthew(NT) 25:35-45, which is an invitation and demand for all people to prove their real love and value by precise deeds. It's a perfect and fair test; believers can't use their (single) belief in god as reason enough to enter his kingdom, and atheists can't use their disbelief for amnesty. Please don't miss to give homeless in the streets to eat in person sometimes, Ma'am, and You and all the people You encourage have already passed the test. Good luck!
Ron1O 4 years ago
So stoning disobedient children is perfect?
ozatheist 4 years ago
Ozatheist...This is strictly my point of view from understanding the Bible: God is more than we are. What I mean is that His standard is higher than ours. He is more knowledgeable than we are concerning every situation. His discipline is harsher than ours is, as parents. But His love is more abundant than ours is too. Since He is omniscient, He knows everyone's motives. He is perfectly just (much more than we are), and He is more liberal with His mercy than we are with ours.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
If my father molested me, of course his fault. He did it, so it's his fault. It's independent of the source of morals. Molestion is wrong in every culture, whether they're judeo-christian-islamic or not. If a priest molests an alter boy, is it his fault? Same answer. He knows it's wrong, whether the rule was written in a book or just part of his culture. The morals came first. They were written in the book later. If monkeys could write, perhaps they'd carve their morals in stone too.
headybrew 4 years ago
I cannot understand how intelligent people can believe that a life's complexity began from non-life! The truth is, both you and I go beyond science in our beliefs.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Why does complexity imply intelligent design?
If your premise is that a complex thing must have a creator, then who created god? God is a very complex thing, after all. If god doesn't need a creator then why does the universe need one? Perhaps more importantly, complexity is a human judgement. Anything we can't understand we consider complex. We think a creator is needed, just because we can't understand it. Isn't that a bit arrogant? Maybe we're just not smart enough to understand it.
headybrew 4 years ago
True. In the same way that existence of God and the infinity of God is outside of Science, so is the infinity of the Universe. Something is infinite. You are making the assumption that it is the Universe. I am making the assumption that it is God. We are each living according to beliefs that are based on assumptions, not science.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
I'm not necessarily asserting that th universe is infinite. I think that it is perfectly OK to simply say that I don't know the answer. The important point here is what's called the "fallacy of the infinite creators". You are assuming that anything as complex as a universe needs a creator. If so, then who created god? If god is simply infinite, then why couldn't the universe be too, and thus not need a creator?
headybrew 4 years ago
I'm curious, whose moral standard do you use as a guide by which to live? What if something is acceptable to you but is offensive others?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Whose moral standard? My own of course. Don't you live by your own moral standard? We all do things every day that offend others. And standards change over time. Some cultures would be offended by the fact that you are showing your naked face on video on the internet. Are you worried about offending those cultures?
headybrew 4 years ago
No, I don't live by my own moral standard. I used to think it was OK to lie every now and then, afterall, everyone does it. It wasn't until I gave my life to Christ that He changed my conviction about that. I know that some of my actions offend others but if my actions are in accordance with God's will, then it's OK because He is the highest authority.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
You are the one who chose the bible's moral standard, just as we all choose from among what's presented to us. The bible is just one of many ways that culture is taught to us. We each take what works for us from what's presented to us. You chose the bible. And you undoubtedly interpret it in a way that work for you. Your interpretation. Your chosen moral standard.
headybrew 4 years ago
To say that science backs up your belief up is not accurate. It bothers me when I hear the term "science vs faith", as if you have proof which supports the infinity of the universe, abiogenesis, and evolution. Definitely, these three concepts are still hypotheses. With what we know from history about changing information within the field of science, why are these suppositions presented as facts?
AnswerThem 4 years ago
You're not reading very carefully. Nothing is presented as fact. All answers are provisional, awaiting the discovery of contradictory evidence. Science does not postulate an infinite universe. Current theory is that it has a beginning. But before you can even ask that, you have to define time itself. If these concepts are merely hypotheses, then what makes god anything more than that? What is your evidence that transforms your god hypothesis into a "proven fact"?
headybrew 4 years ago
Speaking of moral standard, once again...do you think, then, that it's OK for a 12 year old to shoot up heroine because he thinks it's OK? What if he's your son? You're OK with sleeping around. How's that different from being a prostitute? (Actually, a prostitute at least values herself a little more since she charges). What if your spouse thinks it's OK to cheat on you? You just accept this as moral differences and accept it? I'm trying to understand your way of thinking.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Why do you keep assuming that I make my morals up as I go along? I'd bet you and I have surprisingly similar morals, since we grew up in similar cultures. Please stop assuming that I have no morals. I find it very insulting. Your morals came from the same place mine did. God didn't invent morals. Humans invented god, and ascribed their own morals to him. Each generation re-interprets the bible to make it support their chosen morals. Have you eaten shrimp lately?
headybrew 4 years ago
I'm also sorry that I offended you with my statement. I do not assume that you do not have any morals. I'm just trying to understand your essential moral beliefs. When I became a Christian some of my morals stayed the same but some changed.
giveananswer 4 years ago
OK. But please understand, I am saying that our morals, yours and mine, come from the same place: the society we grew up in. You say yours come from the bible, but so do the Mennonites. Yet they won't ride in a motorized vehicle. If yours come from the same bible, then why the difference? Because the bible is not the source of your morals. Your society's interpretation is. You interpret it in a way that works in your society. I choose morals that work in mine. Social instincts are the source.
headybrew 4 years ago
True. Many of our morals came from our godly foundation (as a nation). There will be differences over the small stuff amongst Christians We all agree on the basics of the Gospel, though: that Jesus is God who came in the flesh and because of His love, gave His life to redeem us. I'm curious, do you have a religious background?
giveananswer 4 years ago
Strange! I just noticed that my username has been changed. I'm going to have to change it back. I must have done something goofy. GiveAnAnswer is part of our e-mail address. Oh well.
giveananswer 4 years ago
The Bible is now the source of my morals. I was taught that lying was wrong so I rarely spoke bold-faced lies. But after I came to know Jesus personally, my conviction that lying was wrong went to a much deeper level. Any form of deception is wrong...cheating on taxes/insurance forms..."white" lies... misleading information of every kind. I knew I had to come clean with God and others.
giveananswer 4 years ago
No, the bible is not the source of your morals. You may think it is, but it is just plain isn't. If it were, then you'd have the same morals as the Puritans who lived several hundred years ago. But I doubt that you do. How do you explain the difference if you both are reading the same bible?
headybrew 4 years ago
Hello again, Headybrew. I've been so busy. How are my morals different from the Puritans' morals? Originally, my parents, who are not born-again Christians but traditionalists, taught me morals which originated from the Bible.
giveananswer 4 years ago
More evil has been done by atheism then any other system in world history. Study the Russian Revolution where atheists killed 100 million Christians!
Theol0gic 4 years ago
TheolOgic...thanks for your comment. Sometimes people think that mankind is so good. Mankind has done some good things but our main motivating force is selfishness.
AnswerThem 4 years ago
Again, I have no doubt that you are a kind and loving person, who means well. But you have been mis-informed by your religious leaders. When you ask their guidance, as you probably did this sunday morning before answering me, they will point you to what they want you to see. You should instead look yourself at the *whole* bible. Not just what they tell you to look at.
headybrew 4 years ago
Let's say your god does exist. One day he talks to moses from a burning bush. And moses comes to the people and says, "well the bush burned without being consumed. It must have been god. And this god told me we can kill all our enemies and take their female children as our war prizes." Now my question is this. Supposing that this really did happen, should we trust Moses judgement that his was a loving god and not a demon posing as one?
headybrew 4 years ago
As far as trusting Moses...Good question. It is important to seek God diligently, lest we become deceived. We do have to trust that if God created us, that He has also already communicated with mankind, revealing His character and His purpose, and thus, our purpose. It's good to study all religions, if need be, to find the true way to God. Jesus, though, was very exclusive of other "paths". He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
AnswerThem 4 years ago