I don't know...if Mary was essentially the new Arch of the Covenant...and if the wrong people in the OT touched the first Arch of the Covenant dropped dead (or got Indiana Jones'd with the melting skin and such) wouldn't it make sense that St. Joesph refrain from relations with the Blessed Virgin? She literally carried God inside of her as both a sign of respect and reverence and to simply play it safe and keep my flesh on my bones if I were St. Joesph I'd be all for a celibate marriage...
In that scripture Mark 6:3, it also states that Jesus had brothers and named them. It is irrevelent that Jesus had brothers. Jesus was born of a virgin birth and that is all that matters.
One day I was reading the bible and it called my attention one part that says Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to Jesus; especially the word until; that word means once she delivered her son, Joseph had sexual relations with her. Thats easy for me to see. After all hey were husband and wife, werent they? And when I was reading in the book of Luke I found a place where it says she gave birth to her firstborn son; doesnt that mean there were more children besides Jesus?
The understanding of the word until is a new tradition that came about after reformation, but that is not how the church understood it before or now, both Catholics and Othodox believe she remained ever virgin. He knew her not "until" heos is not used to signify they had sexual relations later, but to inform us that she was not touched by man.
And the word "until" does not signify that Mary remained a virgin only until after Jesus's birth. The word "until" and words similar to it such as "unto", "till" signify eternity too. example: In His days shall shine forth righteousness and an abundance of peace, until the moon be taken away. Ps. 71:7 this doesn't mean that when the moon is gone after this day God will no longer have righteousness?
Ps. 122:2 ..... so are our eyes unto the Lord our God, "until" he have mercy on us. Are we to believe this means that after we obtain mercy, then we can quit keeping our eyes on the Lord?
I Cor. 15:25 For He must reign, until He hath put all enemies under His feet. Does that mean that the Lord is going to quit reigning after that?
Matthew 28:20 I am with you alway, even "unto" the end of the world. Are we to believe that after the end of the world Jesus will no longer be with us?
As for firstborn, also means of Christ, prōtotokos, the first born, first begotten, of all creation it was also the Hebrew way of legal term for the first born male Ex 6:14, Gen 25:13 regardless if there were other children to follow or not. If you want to inquire about the other typical objections, such as brothers, all have sinned etc, those answers are also in the comment section. God bless
Mark 6:3 - " Is not this (referring to Jesus) the carpenter, the son of Mary, the BROTHER OF JAMES, JOSES, and of JUDA, and SIMON? are not his SISTERS here with us?" Why is it so wrong to accept that Mary was not a perpetual virgin according to the Bible?
as explained the bible doesn't give evidence of other children or else she wouldn't have went with John who was not her son. This is leading to circles, you don't answer questions I ask you but that's ok, the video is to show why we believe as we do about Mary, you don't have to accept it. She remained a holy woman, full of grace from the begining God endowed her with it, with the duty of raising God's son, I'll stick with what the early Church alway believed instead of new traditions.
Lman146...... I see the big issue you have here is accepting the truth that Mary, Mother of God, lived on earth a life of perpetual Virginity. Firstly, I see you heavily rely on St Matt. 13:54-57 to prove Mary was not a perpetual virgin and thus claim that Jesus Christ had literal brothers and sisters. I say to you, CONTEXT is extremely important when referring to the Holy Scriptures, and you clearly do not consider context when referring to Scripture
Let me start by referring to early orthodox Christian teaching. Pope St Siricius following statement to Anysius(Bishop) in 392AD shows that any notion that the brethren of the Lord were other children of the Virgin Mary is certainly anathema: Surely, we cannot deny that regarding the sons of Mary, the statement is justly censured, and Your Grace has rightly abhorred it, that from the same virginal womb, from which according to the flesh Christ was born, another offspring was brought forth
If you can't find this in the Bible it is hardly my problem. That is why show I disregard any yoo-hoo that comes along and changes things just because they do not like it. Thanks
You claim that St Matt. 13: 54-55, St Mark 3:31 and St Mark 6:3 show that Jesus had brothers from His Mother Mary, merely because the word brother or brothers appears. It is well known fact that there existed no word in Aramaic or Hebrew for cousin. Please research into this point, as it is very important you understand Scripture in its context. So the word brother is used in these languages in a generalized sense, and definitely doesnt imply that children are of the same parent
. Importantly, there are many examples in the Old Testament when the word brother was applied to any sort of relation: nephew (Gen. 12:5; 13:8; 14:16); uncle (Gen. 29:15); husband (Songs 4:9); member of the same tribe; of the same people (Exod. 2:21); an ally(Amos 1:9); a friend (2 Kings 1:26) and finally someone of the same office (1 Sam. 9:13). Please Lman146 refer to these passages and your argument simply collapses as you fail to look at Scripture in its context.
Now let me refer to St Matt 27:56, which you claim indicates Mary had other children, where Mary the mother of James and Joseph is mentioned. So you may think who is this Mary, if it isnt the Mother of Jesus? And who were the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ? The simple answer to these questions is found in St John 19:25 where there is evidence that the Virgin Mary had an older sister whose name was also Mary:
Meanwhile, standing near the cross of Jesus where his mother, and his mothers sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. Where the wife of Clopas may have been a direct sister of the Virgin Mary or a cousin, nonetheless, they had blood kinship ties. So it can be seen that of the Marys mentioned it must Mary the wife of Clopas NOT Mary the mother of Jesus as the Virgin Mary is never mentioned by any other title in the Gospels except as mother of Jesus.
. Evidently, referring to St Mark 3:18 and Acts 1:13, Our Lord had cousins by the names of James and Joseph.Fathers of The Church also speak profoundly that Mary, Mother of Jesus, was a virgin before, during and perpetually after the birth of Christ (ante partum, in partu, post partum). If you want me to refer to the Fathers of The Church and there words on the Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady, just let me know. Lman146 it is very important that you understand the Holy Bible in its context.
It is ironic that the founders of Protestantism strictly defended the same teaching. Luther stated: It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb kept perfectly intact
Another major Protestant leader Zwingli stated:
I firmly believe, that Mary, according to the words of the gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin
I am not interested in what Luther believed. I am rather interested in what the original church believed. I'm getting my head in the Word itself rather than looking at the teachings of men.
Lateran Council(649) proclaimed emphatically the perpetual virginity of Mary:
If anyone does not properly and truly confess according to the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God, the ever-Virgin and immaculate Mary, in these latter days, properly and truly conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself, who was born of God The Father before all ages, and that she bore Him incorruptibly, her virginity remaining inviolable even after His birth, let him be condemned'
First of all, I am glad that you took the time to explain your view. However, I will not base my salvation on the traditions of men, or what the "holy Fathers" said. I want what they had in the original church. I want to hear the sound of a mighty rushing wind. Whether or not Mary was a virgin until her death, I will not pray to her. I believe she was an honorable woman, but Jesus Himself will be my focus. I will let the word of my true Eternal Father dictate my salvation, rather than men.
Belief was re-asserted during the first decades of the Protestant reformation, through the Catechism of the Council of Trent, 1566:
This immaculate and perpetual virginity forms, therefore, the just theme of our eulogy. Such was the work of the Holy Ghost, who at the Conception and birth of the Son so favored the Virgin Mother as to impart to her fecundity while preserving inviolate her perpetual virginity'
Finally, i say to you please read the Holy scripture in context, it is very important.
because there is no scripture in my Bible that specifically points out that Mary was perpetually a virgin, or that believing she was a perpetual virgin somehow is tied to salvation, I can't consider this a salvation issue. I believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, and that is what is important to me. But i believe that we need to get back to the true saving name of Jesus, for there is none other name under heaven by which we must be saved according to the Bible.
I am Catholic and i agree..it is not central to your salvation to believe mary a perpetual virgin...Nor is a belief in purgatory...Though i would say there is lots of evidence to support both biblically.
Also, oneness is not an error. If God is three persons, how is Jesus the everlasting father in Isaiah 9? How is he the Alpha and Omega in Revelation? "I and my Father are One" - Jesus. The Bible also says that all the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Jesus bodily. GBU also.
I asked you first, :) Isaiah 9:6 doesnt disprove the Trinity, nor does it support the oneness doctrine. Explain why these plural forms such as 1 John 5:7, these verses dont show oneness doctrine, but a Trinity, how does oneness explain these verses? cont
Matthew 28:19, John 14:23, 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2 Corinthians 1:21, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Hebrews 9:13-14, Ephesians 3:14-19, John 15:26, Jude 1:20-21, Acts 2:32-33, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 , also I did a series of videos on the trinity, you will find my answers there. Ask your pastor about those verses, but dont count on him to be happy about your questions, then again maybe he will have answers for you. GBU
I think if you examine both of our beliefs, you will not find such a big difference. I have found that many Trinitarians believe similarly to oneness doctrine. e believe that God revealed Himself in three different persons. From what I understand, correct me if I am wrong, you believe that these three persons think apart from each other, which would make them distinct from each other. We believe they are all three titles of one God.
Again, you didn't explain those verses I showed you, they show they are distinct and yet they are one, not three different titles or hats God wore and so oneness is not the answer to that plurality the bible or the early church gives testimony to, but glad you find common ground somewhere too.
If Mary gave birth the same way every woman does, she would not have remained intact.
Now, I know that with God anything is possible, but he came down the birth canal like every other baby, and born into the world the same as every other baby, except without a human father.
SO personally, I don't believe she was a perpetual virgin, and I believe her and Joseph went on to have other kids. There is no reason why not, especially as there is mention of siblings in the bible.
Your problem is taking God out of the picture. With God all things are possible. So I see no problem with calling Mary a perpetual virgin. Many people have the same problem though. They just take God out of it. Thanks
I know that with God everything is possible:) as I stated above.
But if we think about this for a moment, did Jesus come into the world the same way we did, or was he transported from the womb into Mary's arms? Did God make Jesus transparent so he would pass right through the barrier, leaving mary intact?
Both are possible with God, but we know that he didn't just transport Jesus into mary's arms, and I'm pretty sure that he didn't pass like a ghost through the barrier.
There is no cause to think they did either. BTW the questions and statements you make have been answered several times in the comment section. Your just rehashing what has already been said. Thanks
There isn't anything wrong with viewing that Mary and Joseph as a typical married couple who became one. Typically this happens within the first seven days when the bride and groom spend a solid week in the bridal chamber.
But God asked Joseph and Mary to refrain until after the baby was born to show that he was born of the Holy Spirit and not man.
They were asked to refrain for miracle sake, not because there was any evil in being together. There is no cause to think they didn't after.
But is more confusing when someone says Mary is not the mother of god, when she Cleary gave birth to him, and raised him, which makes Mary Gods earthly mother, then when someone says Mary is not gods motherso then if Mary is not the mother of god, then who gave birth to god who came to earth? He didnt just magical appear on earth. - I am Protestant
Where in the bible does Jesus claim to be God? He refuted the Pharisees staement saying he was making himself God. Jesus replied saying that he was saying he is the Son of God, not God Himself.
Mary gave birth to the humanity of Jesus, but she did not exist before God existed, nor gave birth to Him. In other words, Mary did not create God, God created Mary, and Mary gave birth to the physical manifestation of God.
Why do you resort to telling me that I am theologically lacking rather than biblically supporting your claims? God was manifested in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16) and born of a virgin, meaning that prior to his conception, God existed. Prior to Mary being born, God existed. Do you mean to tell me that Mary pre-existed God?
You are making the assumption Mary pre-existed in which she didn't, and no one claims that in the Catholic Church. The standard false assumptions have already been answered in the comment section, I suggest you read it other wise I am not rehashing what has already been said.
Well not exactly eye to eye, Jesus is God and by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary conceived and gave birth to Jesus, who was not just born a man, he is the word made flesh, he was born fully God and fully human. Answers about her being endowed with Grace from God are in the comment section and other videos I have about Mary, Thanks GBU
Then why is it we get so worked up when we say Mary is the Mother of god. Mary is not a god, she is not more powerful then god, but she gave birth to him here on earth, therefore she is gods earthy mother. We should honor her for saying yes to man kinds salvation. She could have said no, but she loved god and us enough to say yes to gods will But is more confusing when someone says Mary is not the mother of god,
Protestants, anyone born on this earth has a mother. Right? Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus/God was born here on earth to do his work and mission for our salvation. Therefore, If anyone born on earth has a mother
The Father is God but is not the Son or the Holy Spirit; the Son is God but is not the Father or the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father or the Son. The Son proceeds eternally from the Father, the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son. One God, three equal Persons. St Patrick explained this using the shamrock. Three petals, one leaf, one entity. The Son is a divine Person with a divine nature and a human nature. Hence Mary is the HONORED Mother of God.
by refusing to acknowledge that Mary is the mother of God, youre refusing to believe in the Holy Trinity- which all Christians MUST believe to be saved. God the Father, IS Jesus Christ. Christ is the Father. They are both the Holy Spirit. three seperate personalities, but one God. thus, Mary IS indeed the mother of God. He chose her through His own mercy and grace. not from what she did. and she was humble. and accepted. thus, we venerate her (honor her) and seek to live lives similar to hers.
I suggest you read all comments and you will find an answer to Mary as Mother of God. Even Elizabeth said in Luke 1:43 "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
So I suspect you do not really know what you are talking about. Thanks
Why are you venerating Mary? You claim to give Christians answers, but sir how can you defend Catholicism? I would like to discuss that with you. How do you defend Catholicism with Scripture?
Easy to defend Catholism with the Bible since that is where their doctrines come from. It is difficult to defend your beliefs because you are probably a Protestant and you have thrown sevenh books of the Biblke away so please do not tell me you believe the Bible.. So what is your religion?
Those seven books obviously disagree with the rest of scripture seeing as jesus' half siblings are mentioned in the canon, and your books claim that Mary was a perpetual virgin... And if you must know my religion, I am an Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal, unashamedly.
Where did I mention deuterocanonical, I stated 2 apocryphal books and one early church father commentary that were non-canonical. They still have historical value. Especially the early church fathers. In this case illustrating writings that discussed the Marys perpetual virginity, in that she was a consecrated virgin to the Lord.
The deuterocanonical books are a different subject and are not apocryphal books and should not have been removed from any bible. She didnt have other children, there is no proof, but you can find those answers in the comment section.
There is much confusion in the world now, regarding God and Christianity, you can see this all over the internet. I am unashamedly Catholic and believe in the Holy Trinity, oneness is an error, If God is only one person than why does the Bible repeatedly use plural pronouns for God? For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." I John 5:7, Throughout the Bible it gives testimony of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I believe everything you said, that is my view of Jesus almost to a tee. The only thing I think I disagree with is that she was a perpetual virgin. Even if those books have historical value, if they contradict the rest of it, I won't consider them. Matthew 13:55, Matthew 27:56, Mark 3:31, and Mark 6:3 all show that Jesus had brothers.
Read closely to sort it out, There are three Jamess - [1. James] cousin of Jesus, brother of Joses, son of Mary wife of Cleophas, his sister would be Salome, Jn 19:25, Mk 15:40 [2. James the less] Son of Alphaeus, his brother was Jude, and [3. James the greater] son of Zebedee aka sons of thunder, his brother was St. John writer of the 4th gospel, his epistles and the book of revelation, Mk 10:35.
The verses you gave don't prove he had biological siblings. None of them had a father named Joseph including [Simon] who was son of Jona, his brother was Andrew, Jn 1:42. [Judas] was son of a man name Simon Jn 13:26. And brethren often would mean, the community of believers, or to refer even to a cousin.
but the verses I gave, specifically Mk 6:3 do not specify their fathers at all. It would be unnecessary, because Jesus' mother was already shown to be their mother. There can be multiple people with the same name, you know.
and I gave verse back that specifically showed those men and even the woman had different fathers than Jesus. And I showed these different James's as well and Mary's. Mk 6:3 compared to other verses show they were cousins, and there is no hebrew or Aramaic name for cousin. And brethern doesn't always mean blood brother, see Catholic answers Brethren of the Lord. You didn't answer my question why did Mary go with John if she had other children? That would have been very important to Jesus.
Before Jesus died HE told his Mother, Mother there is your son referring to John, and then He told John, John there is your mother.
Also in the bible,Jesus' mom came along with jesus' brothers looking for Jesus. Inside they told Jesus your mom is outside looking for you but Jesus said. My mother and brother are the ones that do my fahter's will.
in ther lord's prayer he show us how to pray to the fahter, the son and Holy Spirit, He did not told us to ask the virgin Mary for anythig.
Grace must reign in all conversations about God. He is the Graceful One and we must follow his lead. God bless you all for you questions and your answers. Please be kind to one another. Show patience and tenderness. For we are discussing the kind hearted Jesus and his wonderful Mother. Each one of us is related to each other. Let us keep that in mind. Treat everyone like you would treat Jesus. May angels protect us all. Glory to God in the Highest and Peace to those of good will. alex leitch37
Bingolly1. You're one to talk about tradition! You follow a Catholic faith which sees tradition over scripture. Your faith is filled with pagan rituals disguised as being "holy." You follow traditions of men rather than God's truth!
Actually my comments about people complaining that Catholic Church following tradition is a rebuttal to the thousands of protestants that make up their own traditions of men beginning with their founders of their church. The Catholic Church follows the traditions of the early church and there are plenty of writings to prove it is Catholic.
And since you are claiming we practice pagan rituals you need to back that up with some facts other than coming to my channel slinging mud.
And btw what religion are you or Christian denomination do you belong to? You seem to want to complain about mine, but do not disclose what you believe.
I don't think it would matter if i tolled you, you would probably have something negative to say about it, but since you asked so nicely, i'm an evangelical, spirit filled, member of the Body of Christ.
BB If you hit view all comments my question was directed to the individual named chivahead who said my faith was filled with pagan rituals. I don't think I was negative considering the insulting way they are claiming the Catholic faith is pagan. He listens to too many traditions of men and has nothing to back it up with but with more false witness.
Can you back up your claim that Mary was without sin with scripture, or are you just like all the other false religions that twist scripture to suit your own doctrine, i hear you say in some of your other posts that you say God is all powerful and he could have kept Mary without sin, have you ever considered that God being all powerful would have cleansed the vessel he would enter this world through before entering it?
I can turn that question back one you, "Can you back up your claim that Mary was [with] sin using scripture, or are you just like all the other false religions that twist scripture to suit your own doctrine,"
The early church always believed this, and Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli believed that Mary was always a virgin. Why did the later Protestants throw this belief out and by whose authority?
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.All is all and this would include Mary,do you have a scripture that specifically excludes her from the"all"? Even Mary acknowledge that she needed a savior Luke 1:47 And my heart rejoices in God my savior.If you have no sin why would you need a savior? Darwin believed in evolution does that make him right? millions of people believe that a baby is not human till it has left the womb does that make them right?
bibleorbust, Mary didn't say my spirit rejoices in my Savior who will soon arrive and save me later, she speaks in the here and now, (My savior) she was already saved because God made her that way and filled her with Grace to carry His Son. How could she have sin in her if she was full of grace? She had to be pure for God to dwell there. Paul much later after the fact stated all have sinned. Mary obviously didn't fall short of the Glory of God or she wouldn't have been blessed among women.
I don't know what Darwin has to do with the early protestants believing Mary was always a virgin. If you think it is a theory you are incorrect, it was something that is shown in scripture, taught and believed by the earliest Christians way before the early protestants. I don't understand why it was something that later protestants would throw out of Christian teaching and dishonor her after 1500 years? The bible says all generations will call her blessed, that would include this one. God bless
The reason i gave the examples of Darwin and abortion was in response to this comment from bingolly;The early church always believed this, and Luther,Calvin,And Zwingli believed that Mary was always a virgin.The point was that just because someone believes that something is true,doesnt mean that it is,the burden of proof is yours,still waiting for that scripture that says that Mary had no sin,if she said my spirit rejoices in God my saviour, then God was her saviour.What did he save her from?
The truth that Mary was without sin and comparing it to some type of running theory that has been developed like Darwin's is not a wise one. Heaven forbid, we see people are turning scripture into personal theories and making new doctrine everyday. What will develop from these theories later? There is already thousands of protestants who all believe very different from the early church and Luther and what is believed about Jesus Christ is eroding daily.
The Christian Church 'always' believed Mary was a virgin and holy. If she was filled with Grace how could she be in a state of sin too? Jesus is God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit co-equal co-eternal co-existent. Jesus is God in the flesh. What did God save her from? As I mentioned He had already saved her, since the bible says she was full of grace.
Saving grace was something no one received until Christ, but Mary had it already because we believe God preserved her from original sin, and since she was in a state of grace and filled with it obviously she had no personal sin either. I think it is highly unlikely that she lost her grace somewhere and did not endure til the end? The Greek word for this kind of grace is kecharitomene meaning she was perfect endowed already with it. This is used no where else in scripture except Luke 1:28.
Regarding abortion if people read early church writings such as the Didache maybe they would Christians always believed killing the unborn was murder instead of some sort of developing theory. In the first century The Teaching of the Twelve said, do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. People will read secular historians and believe what they have to say or the Jewish historian Josephus, but will total ignore what the ancient church wrote and believed. God bless you!
Oh, w/ the mention of the early church, We believe in tradition, that tradition is the teaching of Christ, and the apostles handed to the early church and to us. We dont believe in the modern traditions of men who have thrown out what was always believed. The bible didnt come together until around 360 or so, until then and even now we believe this. Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold [the traditions] which you have learned, whether [by word], or [by our epistle.]
Two things you could consider #1 God is all powerful, it is within his power do anything he wills, he could have cleansed Mary of her sin before entering her womb #2 Mary was still under the old covenant so she would be practicing blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of her sin, so maybe she was clean when the spirit of God came upon her.
BB you stated that already and I answered why I do not believe your assumption. I believe what the church has always taught about the virginity of Mary. I have no reason to believe modern traditions of men that have popped up in numbers for the past 500 years and have decided to deconstruct in various ways what has been believed by the church for 2000 years. For me there is no valid reason looking at scripture as a whole, the early church teaching, and writings to believe anything different.
Wow you still don't get what i was trying to say. Just like Darwin has no evidence for evolution you also have no scriptural evidence that Mary was without sin , show me one scripture in the Bible that says Mary was without sin, your theories mean nothing your doctrinal beliefs mean nothing the Word of God is truth.
I understood what you said, I did give you scriptural evidence. Mary was full of Grace, if someone is full of Grace they can not be in a state of sin. That means she was sinless, she had a special grace given to her by God, not something she did on her own, although she did with her free will remain obedient to the Lord. That is not a theory, but if you want to believe it is then so be it, believe as you like, I know what the church believes and scripture and it does not go against God. Peace
You said, "your theories mean nothing, your doctrinal beliefs mean nothing, the Word of God is truth."
I am not trying to be insulting at all it is just perplexing to me, which one of the thousands of ever splitting protestant denominations has the truth of God's word, when there are so many interpretations of God's word? God bless
So she was a sinner up to the point that the angel said, hail one having received grace the Lord is with you.
According to who and what verse of scripture she was a sinner before? I see no evidence of this? And it would not go with the truth of scripture. As I said, the Greek word for full of grace is kecharitomene meaning she was perfectly endowed with Grace already, it wasnt something that occurred later. "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with the." Luke 1:28
The name of the Church? Christ gave His apostles authority, in early church writings St. Ignatius who was ordained by St. Peter used the Greek word katholikos, his letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8, of 107 A.D., "Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St. Polycarp who died in AD 155 called the church Catholic many times. There are more early Christian writings that attest to the name. Who named your church?
Regarding the Catholic Church split? Split for whom? It has been teaching the same biblical truth for 2000 years. I wasnt condemning either, I was making a discernment about all the many different churches and individuals who claim they only have the truth in the interpretation of Gods word, it is most certainly a cause for concern for a new convert to the Christian faith.
Well according to the Bible Romans 3:23 all have sinned.I don't see Marys Name being excluded in this scripture do you?Now we are getting to what the RCC needs to assume,accept and believe in order for Mary to be without sin,was her mother without sin, her grandmother,all the way back to Eve,why was Adam/Eve kicked out of Eden? please add scripture reference for all of them.Or did the grace that God gave her in Luke cleans her from sin at that moment so that she could be a pure vessel for God?
I am aware that you think the perpetual virginity of Mary is made up outside of the realm of God and scripture because it challenges new traditions which are thinking in the flesh, not according to Gods will to bring about the completion of salvation. The idea that her mother and her mothers mother etc, is not the logic of the church or mine, that is a presupposition people make about why they think we believe. --
So I cant give you scripture on what is not believed or taught by the church. But, I can show you scripture as to why the church has always believed Mary is immaculate and its teaching is within scripture and would be according to the Lord and how he prepares those He chooses. --
She was cleansed from original sin in her mothers womb and chosen by God, and this is completely with in the realm of how the Lord works. People in the bible have been conceived sanctified. The Lord said to Jeremiah, "I have sanctified thee before thou didst leave the womb of thy mother" (Jer 1:5). St. John the Forerunner was sanctified while still in the womb of St. Elizabeth (Luke 1:15 & 41)
If no man was greater born to a woman than St. John, do you think Christ was excluding himself, he was born to a woman too and He was of course greater than John the Baptist, Mark 1:7. If the forerunner for Christ was sanctified in his mothers womb, and Marys womb being the temple of God for 9 months it perfectly within the realm of how the Lord works His miracles. Full of grace, tells us she was sanctified endowed with grace.
It's very biblical that God would sanctify the woman he chose carry his son, there is no reason to think she lost this grace while raising His son and throughout her life. If God expected the Ark of the Covenant a wooden box to be sanctified before He dwelled there I am certain He would expect Mary to be a holy temple before the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and before Christ would dwell there for 9 months. He chose her sanctified Mary in the womb, and she lived a life dedicated to God.
I have to ask, but dont take this as insulting, do you think God would just randomly clean up some harlot and instantly purify them having lived an un-dedicated, un-obedient life to Him and have His Son dwell in in the womb and be raised by an unfaithful woman? She had to be sanctified, instead of it being cleansed by Priest like the ark, God himself cleansed Mary and endowed her with grace, He prepared her from the beginning of her life in the womb to have His Son. Have a blessed day.
Yes, it is Biblical that God would sanctify the woman he chose to carry his son, the question is what did he sanctify her from? if she was without sin she would have no need for the sanctification. No one said that she lost grace while raising Jesus, no one said that she didn't live a life dedicated to God, but living a life dedicated to God would mean that she would need to fulfill her marriage duties and that would mean she and Joseph consummated the marriage.
I just showed you scriptural proof, secondly you dont have to accept it. Also I took nothing out of context, but showed how it was in context with scripture. Why is it that it bothers you that Mary was endowed with grace by God and remained a virgin, you act as if it is un-holy for the Mother of God to be holy. This obviously comes for all these new age traditions that cant even see holiness in people God chose.
Its hard to accept scripture that is not, their. DO you think that you cant live a holy life and still fulfill your marriage duties? what would be unholy about Mary being intimate with Joseph? It doesn't bother me that she had Grace, we who accept it receive Gods grace through Jesus death on the cross.
I showed you scripture where God sactified others in their mothers womb. Do you think God would let the stain of Original sin or personal sin touch Christ, of course Mary was sanctified from both original sin and personal sin. Do you think God would allow satan to touch his son with any kind of sin? Christ flesh was Mary's flesh, if she was stained with original sin he would have the same stain, she had to be sanctified. That is why she is full of grace.
Being stuck your idea of Mary's "duty" What you can not see is that St. Joseph was obedient to God from the time he took Mary for his wife she was already impregnated by the Holy Spirit, this was Gods plan, it was Josephs bloodline that gave the public appearance that Christ was from the line of David, but Christ actual Davidic blood lineage came through Mary. Mary was/is the hidden unknown Queen of the Davidic Kingdom as promised by God, Christ would come through King Davids seed.
Joseph protection for the Holy Family was arranged by God in countless ways. Mary never belonged to Joseph even before they were betrothed or after, she was a consecrated virgin to God. Why all the danger, God could have waited until Joseph took Mary into his house as his wife then let her conceive by the Holy Spirit, but God wanted to make it perfectly clear that Jesus was born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Both Joseph and Mary knew that she belonged to the Lord, both were chosen to carry out His divine plan. Joseph protected the Ark (Mary) that carried Gods Son, he protected and raised Christ according to Gods will, not his own. Why would Joseph be intimate with Mary who was already consecrated to God?
The "until" question is a non-issue and has already been answered in the comment section by several people. Just hit view all comments if you are interested.
Wow you just answered my last post, so she was sanctified from sin in the womb, thank you for that, so now we know that she was a sinner. Now all we need is a scripture that says she did not sin from the time she was born to the time of her conception, or we can believe that God sanctify her just before he entered her womb.
I said she was sanctified in the womb of her mother St. Ann. How could she be a sinner full of grace? Obviously she committed no personal sin w/ her own free will since she was full of grace when the angel greeted her. You said, where is scripture that says she didnt sin from the time she was born to the time of her conception? You have that backwards dont you, she was conceived (her conception in her own mothers womb) then she was born. How does one sin from the womb to their birth?
Please show me the scripture that say that Mary was immaculately conceived, i don't want a scripture that is twisted to say what you want it to say, please don't be like the sda and take a bunch of scriptures out of context and put them together.
I already explained God sanctified her from original sin. When the angel greeted her full of grace it is obvious something that had happened already before his greeting. The marriage duties? You are in the flesh preoccupied w/ this "duty" as you call it. I explained that already, but I am not on trial here, you are putting Christ and his Mother on trial & accusing her of being unholy and claiming she had any kind of sin when Christ was in her womb is to say satan tainted Christ.
Furthermore, with your modern traditions of men you chose to ignore scripture as a whole and think it is just to be used for verse slinging to suit your modern doctrines and think it is only useful to use it to condemn others with it, instead of understanding it as a whole. We believe in tradition, and that tradition comes from Christ, the Apostles, and early church fathers handed on to those ordained to persevere Gods truth.
The non biblical sola scriptura is a protestant fallacy used to deny true scripture and traditions taught by the church. Sadly that is why there are so many protestant doctrines out there by the thousands. 2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Your learned disbelief is non-biblical and deconstructs Gods truth. I have no reason to believe your traditions over the ancient Christian Catholic Church.
I'm still trying to find where Jesus or the disciples said the hail Mary and them told us to do same. I'm also trying to find a scripture that say we are to have statues in are church made of wood and bronze, and I cant seem to find a reference in the Bible to the rosary beads, just to name a few. If these where such important traditions held by Jesus and his diciples they would have said so.
Nothing wrong w/ statues, brass, wood, metals, etc. The problem would be making false gods and worshiping them. That would be idol worship, forbidden by God and the Church.
You won't have to look too far regarding things dedicated to God, ie: statues, wood and bronze which are not forbidden. Ex:25 God instructs the ark. And that bronze serpent in Num 21:9?
We are made a little lower than angels, yet an angel sent by God to speak His message greeted her, Hail,Full of Grace Lk 1:28 and recognized the holiness of the soon to be the Mother of God Lk 1:43, then whats the problem? What other human was ever greeted by an angel in such respect?
Some of my comments did not get approved. So don't answer the comments that you wont approve, it makes no sense, it sounds like your talking to yourself.
I suggest you either view all comments or keep up with your comments. All your comments have been approved so please do not play that game. Enough time has been wasted on your inability to understand what is being said to you. Thanks
I was wondering what all that was about? I hit view all comments and I answered a dozen of their questions. Post don't show up in order unless a person hits view all comments.
Ok, that worked. I was not playing a game, why do you talk down to me, do you feel good putting me down, all through my posts i was trying to be careful not to point a finger at any individual because some people may attend a certain church but still may not hold to all there beliefs. One question is salvation in a church and traditions or is salvation in Jesus alone? John 3:16
When the disciples asked Jesus how to pray what did he say to them? Was it the Hail Mary? And i see no scripture reference for Pray for us sinners and Now and at the time of are death. Who are you praying to?
Protestants lead prayer with many verses and parts of scripture. There is nothing forbidden that we can recall scripture in prayer, there are 100's of verses in the New Testament that speak of praying, prayer, pray, ask God, etc. Example of those in Heaven praying for us are found in the Old and New Testaments from the Patriarchs to angels, you will have to look them up. Your modern traditions don't allow you to understand scripture beyond argument for whatever protestant group you belong to.
As a Catholic I am aware each protestant group thinks they are Holy Spirit guided to thousands of interpretations of scripture, but none of them are in accord. The Holy Spirit does not cause such confusion. There are many protestant tired invalid arguments against Catholic teaching, we have dealt with these denials for 500 years. I am not persuaded by 500 year old traditions that did not come from Christ, the apostles, or the early church.
It appears you are more interested in your points of argument for the sake of argument than having a sincere desire to know what we teach, and because of that I am ending the conversation. If you are sincere about learning more on your own then, the USCCB is online and has a great deal of information. I doubt it will help dispel the presumptions you already believe about the Catholic Church or scripture. But, God bless you in your studies.
I was trying to understand why you practice your traditions, I just wanted you to show me if any of them had a scriptural base. Just one more question, can anyone be saved apart from the Catholic Church?
Our traditions come from Christ, they come from scripture, the apostles, the early church, they started during the life of Christ and from 33 AD they have continued to be handed on. I have given you scripture in context, but the only feedback I get is, "but what about until" or her "duty" if you are unwilling to see past invalid assumptions then are you sincerely trying to understand. Seems to me you just want to understand things that fit into little words like until or duty etc.
Re: "can be saved apart from the Catholic Church?" God will be the judge, which depends on the light one has received, it also depends on the light one has rejected too.
(Lumen Gentium), "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience those too may achieve eternal salvation"
So if i reject most of the RCC traditions but accept and believe in Jesus i can have eternal life? Is are salvation based on the traditions we keep or is salvation in Jesus alone? Oh and to answer one of your other posts i have agreed with you on some points.
I hoped you would look for those on your own? You want me to prove everything to you, what do you prove to yourself? What have you proven to me with your modern doctrine? I see no evidence that you have believed anything I have shown you yet or even a hint of seeing the possibility of scripture in a different light. Would you accuse me of just talking to myself? It appears I have been or I may as well be because your mind is closed to seeing something different.
Oh, and the rosary? It's the oral recall of the entire gospel just about, from the Annunciation to Pentecost. I can't cite all the scripture for it, there are too many verses of scripture to cite.
If its not made up outside the realm of God and the Bible them show me a scripture that says that Mary never had sex with Joseph after she had Jesus, Because part of being obedient to God would be fulfilling her marriage duties. What does Mary half to do with the completion of Gods salvation? Heb 12:2 Jesus is the author and finisher of are faith, He completed the His plan of salvation when He died on the cross.
If its not made up outside the realm of God and the Bible them show me a scripture that says that Mary never had sex with Joseph after she had Jesus, Because part of being obedient to God would be fulfilling her marriage duties. What does Mary half to do with the completion of Gods salvation? Heb 12:2 Jesus is the author and finisher of are faith, He completed the His plan of salvation when He died on the cross.
If one is thinking in their flesh and not Godly ways I suppose they'd think that. There is no command that it was her duty. What man would have intercourse with a woman who conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and who's body was the Ark that carried the Son of God? She belonged to God before she married Joseph, she was a consecrated virgin, God placed her in Joseph's care as protector. Besides I am sure St. Joseph being a good obedient Jewish man to the Lord knew about Uzzah 2 Samuel 6.
You said, "What does Mary half to do with the completion of Gods salvation?"
I didn't say Mary completed God's salvation plan.
I said, "new traditions which are thinking in the flesh not according to Gods will to bring about the completion of salvation."
We can see God's will to bring about salvation using His faithful servants. That being said, Eve's disobedience brought sin to the world, Mary's obedient yes to the Lord brought salvation not by her power, but by the power of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 1:25 says "Knew Her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Knew in Greek means- 1097(ginōskō)-Jewish idiom(language,expression,dialect) for Sexual Intercourse between a man and a woman.
Mary was espoused to Joseph- Luke 1:27, so Joseph had to wait until after Mary gave birth and maybe a couple of months before sleeping with her. No man marry a woman for no reason, so is common sense that they obviously slept with each other.
Joseph and Mary were chosen by God to raise His Son, there is no proof they had other children or that they had intercourse. Their reason for wedding was because God placed them together for the reason of His Son. This has always been believed by the early church, I don't know what year your tradition began with the founders of your religion, but I will stick to what the early church believes and not you or your preacher traditions and interpretation of scripture.
The term brother when used of Jesus' brother can mean next of kin as well. Cousins or some other relative and not necessarily a brother. Then if a person has not had a relationship with a man then she would still be a virgin. Thanks
I have come to the conclusion that Mary was a virgin and remained a virgin not because of any traditions or modes of thought but because of scripyure when int mentions james being jesus brother it just means mate or brother we read that he had other parents in mark 15:40 and we know there was at least 3 marys in the bible to and james mary and jesus were real common in those days to not to be confused jesus had not brothers and sisters and joseph disappeared when jc was 15 he may have died?
There are alot of misconceptions of mary, 1) nowhere in the Bible does it say that she remained a virgin 2) nowhere in the bible does it say she is queen of heaven. 3) nowhere in the Bible does it say that mary was without sin 4) nowhere in the bible does it say that mary deserves any special honor 5) nowhere in the bible does it say that she intercedes for us. Now if the bible does says such as these are true, then show me where, otherwise such claims in adding to and taking away scripture
Mary was always a virgin before during and after the birth of Jesus. Scripture says Mary remained for ever a virgin
MsRcwolf 6 months ago
I don't know...if Mary was essentially the new Arch of the Covenant...and if the wrong people in the OT touched the first Arch of the Covenant dropped dead (or got Indiana Jones'd with the melting skin and such) wouldn't it make sense that St. Joesph refrain from relations with the Blessed Virgin? She literally carried God inside of her as both a sign of respect and reverence and to simply play it safe and keep my flesh on my bones if I were St. Joesph I'd be all for a celibate marriage...
JFrancesFrancisJ 1 year ago
Comment removed
JFrancesFrancisJ 1 year ago
In that scripture Mark 6:3, it also states that Jesus had brothers and named them. It is irrevelent that Jesus had brothers. Jesus was born of a virgin birth and that is all that matters.
JesusTheOnlyWay777 1 year ago
One day I was reading the bible and it called my attention one part that says Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to Jesus; especially the word until; that word means once she delivered her son, Joseph had sexual relations with her. Thats easy for me to see. After all hey were husband and wife, werent they? And when I was reading in the book of Luke I found a place where it says she gave birth to her firstborn son; doesnt that mean there were more children besides Jesus?
WatchingMySelf1 2 years ago
The understanding of the word until is a new tradition that came about after reformation, but that is not how the church understood it before or now, both Catholics and Othodox believe she remained ever virgin. He knew her not "until" heos is not used to signify they had sexual relations later, but to inform us that she was not touched by man.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
And the word "until" does not signify that Mary remained a virgin only until after Jesus's birth. The word "until" and words similar to it such as "unto", "till" signify eternity too. example: In His days shall shine forth righteousness and an abundance of peace, until the moon be taken away. Ps. 71:7 this doesn't mean that when the moon is gone after this day God will no longer have righteousness?
Bingolly1 2 years ago
Ps. 122:2 ..... so are our eyes unto the Lord our God, "until" he have mercy on us. Are we to believe this means that after we obtain mercy, then we can quit keeping our eyes on the Lord?
I Cor. 15:25 For He must reign, until He hath put all enemies under His feet. Does that mean that the Lord is going to quit reigning after that?
Matthew 28:20 I am with you alway, even "unto" the end of the world. Are we to believe that after the end of the world Jesus will no longer be with us?
Bingolly1 2 years ago
As for firstborn, also means of Christ, prōtotokos, the first born, first begotten, of all creation it was also the Hebrew way of legal term for the first born male Ex 6:14, Gen 25:13 regardless if there were other children to follow or not. If you want to inquire about the other typical objections, such as brothers, all have sinned etc, those answers are also in the comment section. God bless
Bingolly1 2 years ago
@Bingolly1
Sorry to bother you but it seem that I can't post for some reason or the other. Just a thought here.
turtle4aire 1 year ago
I would give you 5 stars..If not disabled.
lamarridley2 2 years ago
it is best when faced with this issue,Not to force it too much.Yes Jesus gave John unto Mary as her son and replacment of himself as her caregiver
lamarridley2 2 years ago
.As she was A widow and would be left Childless..so thefore out cast.But The death and ressurection are the centrals of Salvation.
lamarridley2 2 years ago
Jesus had 4 named brothers and unnamed sisters:
Mark 6:3 - " Is not this (referring to Jesus) the carpenter, the son of Mary, the BROTHER OF JAMES, JOSES, and of JUDA, and SIMON? are not his SISTERS here with us?" Why is it so wrong to accept that Mary was not a perpetual virgin according to the Bible?
Lman146 2 years ago
as explained the bible doesn't give evidence of other children or else she wouldn't have went with John who was not her son. This is leading to circles, you don't answer questions I ask you but that's ok, the video is to show why we believe as we do about Mary, you don't have to accept it. She remained a holy woman, full of grace from the begining God endowed her with it, with the duty of raising God's son, I'll stick with what the early Church alway believed instead of new traditions.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
Lman146...... I see the big issue you have here is accepting the truth that Mary, Mother of God, lived on earth a life of perpetual Virginity. Firstly, I see you heavily rely on St Matt. 13:54-57 to prove Mary was not a perpetual virgin and thus claim that Jesus Christ had literal brothers and sisters. I say to you, CONTEXT is extremely important when referring to the Holy Scriptures, and you clearly do not consider context when referring to Scripture
charbelee 2 years ago
Let me start by referring to early orthodox Christian teaching. Pope St Siricius following statement to Anysius(Bishop) in 392AD shows that any notion that the brethren of the Lord were other children of the Virgin Mary is certainly anathema: Surely, we cannot deny that regarding the sons of Mary, the statement is justly censured, and Your Grace has rightly abhorred it, that from the same virginal womb, from which according to the flesh Christ was born, another offspring was brought forth
charbelee 2 years ago
if it doesn't say this IN THE BIBLE, I cannot regard it.
Lman146 2 years ago
If you can't find this in the Bible it is hardly my problem. That is why show I disregard any yoo-hoo that comes along and changes things just because they do not like it. Thanks
Bingolly1 2 years ago
You claim that St Matt. 13: 54-55, St Mark 3:31 and St Mark 6:3 show that Jesus had brothers from His Mother Mary, merely because the word brother or brothers appears. It is well known fact that there existed no word in Aramaic or Hebrew for cousin. Please research into this point, as it is very important you understand Scripture in its context. So the word brother is used in these languages in a generalized sense, and definitely doesnt imply that children are of the same parent
charbelee 2 years ago
. Importantly, there are many examples in the Old Testament when the word brother was applied to any sort of relation: nephew (Gen. 12:5; 13:8; 14:16); uncle (Gen. 29:15); husband (Songs 4:9); member of the same tribe; of the same people (Exod. 2:21); an ally(Amos 1:9); a friend (2 Kings 1:26) and finally someone of the same office (1 Sam. 9:13). Please Lman146 refer to these passages and your argument simply collapses as you fail to look at Scripture in its context.
charbelee 2 years ago
Now let me refer to St Matt 27:56, which you claim indicates Mary had other children, where Mary the mother of James and Joseph is mentioned. So you may think who is this Mary, if it isnt the Mother of Jesus? And who were the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ? The simple answer to these questions is found in St John 19:25 where there is evidence that the Virgin Mary had an older sister whose name was also Mary:
charbelee 2 years ago
Meanwhile, standing near the cross of Jesus where his mother, and his mothers sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. Where the wife of Clopas may have been a direct sister of the Virgin Mary or a cousin, nonetheless, they had blood kinship ties. So it can be seen that of the Marys mentioned it must Mary the wife of Clopas NOT Mary the mother of Jesus as the Virgin Mary is never mentioned by any other title in the Gospels except as mother of Jesus.
charbelee 2 years ago
. Evidently, referring to St Mark 3:18 and Acts 1:13, Our Lord had cousins by the names of James and Joseph.Fathers of The Church also speak profoundly that Mary, Mother of Jesus, was a virgin before, during and perpetually after the birth of Christ (ante partum, in partu, post partum). If you want me to refer to the Fathers of The Church and there words on the Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady, just let me know. Lman146 it is very important that you understand the Holy Bible in its context.
charbelee 2 years ago
It is ironic that the founders of Protestantism strictly defended the same teaching. Luther stated: It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb kept perfectly intact
Another major Protestant leader Zwingli stated:
I firmly believe, that Mary, according to the words of the gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin
charbelee 2 years ago
I am not interested in what Luther believed. I am rather interested in what the original church believed. I'm getting my head in the Word itself rather than looking at the teachings of men.
Lman146 2 years ago
Lateran Council(649) proclaimed emphatically the perpetual virginity of Mary:
If anyone does not properly and truly confess according to the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God, the ever-Virgin and immaculate Mary, in these latter days, properly and truly conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself, who was born of God The Father before all ages, and that she bore Him incorruptibly, her virginity remaining inviolable even after His birth, let him be condemned'
charbelee 2 years ago
First of all, I am glad that you took the time to explain your view. However, I will not base my salvation on the traditions of men, or what the "holy Fathers" said. I want what they had in the original church. I want to hear the sound of a mighty rushing wind. Whether or not Mary was a virgin until her death, I will not pray to her. I believe she was an honorable woman, but Jesus Himself will be my focus. I will let the word of my true Eternal Father dictate my salvation, rather than men.
Lman146 2 years ago
Belief was re-asserted during the first decades of the Protestant reformation, through the Catechism of the Council of Trent, 1566:
This immaculate and perpetual virginity forms, therefore, the just theme of our eulogy. Such was the work of the Holy Ghost, who at the Conception and birth of the Son so favored the Virgin Mother as to impart to her fecundity while preserving inviolate her perpetual virginity'
Finally, i say to you please read the Holy scripture in context, it is very important.
charbelee 2 years ago
because there is no scripture in my Bible that specifically points out that Mary was perpetually a virgin, or that believing she was a perpetual virgin somehow is tied to salvation, I can't consider this a salvation issue. I believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, and that is what is important to me. But i believe that we need to get back to the true saving name of Jesus, for there is none other name under heaven by which we must be saved according to the Bible.
Lman146 2 years ago
I am Catholic and i agree..it is not central to your salvation to believe mary a perpetual virgin...Nor is a belief in purgatory...Though i would say there is lots of evidence to support both biblically.
lamarridley2 2 years ago
Also, oneness is not an error. If God is three persons, how is Jesus the everlasting father in Isaiah 9? How is he the Alpha and Omega in Revelation? "I and my Father are One" - Jesus. The Bible also says that all the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Jesus bodily. GBU also.
Lman146 2 years ago
I asked you first, :) Isaiah 9:6 doesnt disprove the Trinity, nor does it support the oneness doctrine. Explain why these plural forms such as 1 John 5:7, these verses dont show oneness doctrine, but a Trinity, how does oneness explain these verses? cont
Bingolly1 2 years ago
Matthew 28:19, John 14:23, 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2 Corinthians 1:21, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Hebrews 9:13-14, Ephesians 3:14-19, John 15:26, Jude 1:20-21, Acts 2:32-33, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 , also I did a series of videos on the trinity, you will find my answers there. Ask your pastor about those verses, but dont count on him to be happy about your questions, then again maybe he will have answers for you. GBU
Bingolly1 2 years ago
I think if you examine both of our beliefs, you will not find such a big difference. I have found that many Trinitarians believe similarly to oneness doctrine. e believe that God revealed Himself in three different persons. From what I understand, correct me if I am wrong, you believe that these three persons think apart from each other, which would make them distinct from each other. We believe they are all three titles of one God.
Lman146 2 years ago
Again, you didn't explain those verses I showed you, they show they are distinct and yet they are one, not three different titles or hats God wore and so oneness is not the answer to that plurality the bible or the early church gives testimony to, but glad you find common ground somewhere too.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
If her conception was a miracle why not the birth / ? your faith is to limited.
babyycat 2 years ago
To be honest,
If Mary gave birth the same way every woman does, she would not have remained intact.
Now, I know that with God anything is possible, but he came down the birth canal like every other baby, and born into the world the same as every other baby, except without a human father.
SO personally, I don't believe she was a perpetual virgin, and I believe her and Joseph went on to have other kids. There is no reason why not, especially as there is mention of siblings in the bible.
Myhopeisinhim 2 years ago
Your problem is taking God out of the picture. With God all things are possible. So I see no problem with calling Mary a perpetual virgin. Many people have the same problem though. They just take God out of it. Thanks
Bingolly1 2 years ago
I know that with God everything is possible:) as I stated above.
But if we think about this for a moment, did Jesus come into the world the same way we did, or was he transported from the womb into Mary's arms? Did God make Jesus transparent so he would pass right through the barrier, leaving mary intact?
Both are possible with God, but we know that he didn't just transport Jesus into mary's arms, and I'm pretty sure that he didn't pass like a ghost through the barrier.
He was born like us.
Myhopeisinhim 2 years ago
There is no cause to think they did either. BTW the questions and statements you make have been answered several times in the comment section. Your just rehashing what has already been said. Thanks
Bingolly1 2 years ago
There isn't anything wrong with viewing that Mary and Joseph as a typical married couple who became one. Typically this happens within the first seven days when the bride and groom spend a solid week in the bridal chamber.
But God asked Joseph and Mary to refrain until after the baby was born to show that he was born of the Holy Spirit and not man.
They were asked to refrain for miracle sake, not because there was any evil in being together. There is no cause to think they didn't after.
Myhopeisinhim 2 years ago
So, are you saying that the children Mary went on to have with Joseph after Jesus' birth were all immaculately conceived?
Lman146 2 years ago
Check the comment section. Your question has been answereed many times.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
But is more confusing when someone says Mary is not the mother of god, when she Cleary gave birth to him, and raised him, which makes Mary Gods earthly mother, then when someone says Mary is not gods motherso then if Mary is not the mother of god, then who gave birth to god who came to earth? He didnt just magical appear on earth. - I am Protestant
ilovebach123 2 years ago
All three of your comments show a very good understanding of Mary as the Mother of God. GBU
Bingolly1 2 years ago
Where in the bible does Jesus claim to be God? He refuted the Pharisees staement saying he was making himself God. Jesus replied saying that he was saying he is the Son of God, not God Himself.
doompod 2 years ago
Mary gave birth to the humanity of Jesus, but she did not exist before God existed, nor gave birth to Him. In other words, Mary did not create God, God created Mary, and Mary gave birth to the physical manifestation of God.
Lman146 2 years ago
Your lack of a theological understanding is typical of many protestants who are ill informed and theological lacking.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
Why do you resort to telling me that I am theologically lacking rather than biblically supporting your claims? God was manifested in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16) and born of a virgin, meaning that prior to his conception, God existed. Prior to Mary being born, God existed. Do you mean to tell me that Mary pre-existed God?
Lman146 2 years ago
You are making the assumption Mary pre-existed in which she didn't, and no one claims that in the Catholic Church. The standard false assumptions have already been answered in the comment section, I suggest you read it other wise I am not rehashing what has already been said.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
OK, thanks. We see eye to eye, then. Mary was the mother of Jesus, I don't argue that, but I disagree that she was perpetually a virgin.
Lman146 2 years ago
Well not exactly eye to eye, Jesus is God and by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary conceived and gave birth to Jesus, who was not just born a man, he is the word made flesh, he was born fully God and fully human. Answers about her being endowed with Grace from God are in the comment section and other videos I have about Mary, Thanks GBU
Bingolly1 2 years ago
Then why is it we get so worked up when we say Mary is the Mother of god. Mary is not a god, she is not more powerful then god, but she gave birth to him here on earth, therefore she is gods earthy mother. We should honor her for saying yes to man kinds salvation. She could have said no, but she loved god and us enough to say yes to gods will But is more confusing when someone says Mary is not the mother of god,
ilovebach123 2 years ago
ilovebach123,
well said.
mapollo 2 years ago
Protestants, anyone born on this earth has a mother. Right? Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus/God was born here on earth to do his work and mission for our salvation. Therefore, If anyone born on earth has a mother
ilovebach123 2 years ago
The Father is God but is not the Son or the Holy Spirit; the Son is God but is not the Father or the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father or the Son. The Son proceeds eternally from the Father, the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son. One God, three equal Persons. St Patrick explained this using the shamrock. Three petals, one leaf, one entity. The Son is a divine Person with a divine nature and a human nature. Hence Mary is the HONORED Mother of God.
dutchgables 2 years ago
by refusing to acknowledge that Mary is the mother of God, youre refusing to believe in the Holy Trinity- which all Christians MUST believe to be saved. God the Father, IS Jesus Christ. Christ is the Father. They are both the Holy Spirit. three seperate personalities, but one God. thus, Mary IS indeed the mother of God. He chose her through His own mercy and grace. not from what she did. and she was humble. and accepted. thus, we venerate her (honor her) and seek to live lives similar to hers.
jfulbright90 3 years ago
I suggest you read all comments and you will find an answer to Mary as Mother of God. Even Elizabeth said in Luke 1:43 "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
So I suspect you do not really know what you are talking about. Thanks
Bingolly1 3 years ago
Again I will submit to you saying I am a Christian. I am an ambassador to Christ.
Gixyournightmare 3 years ago
I submit that you have no idea what you are talking about. I have heard that ignorant Protestant answer for 30 years. Good Night
Bingolly1 3 years ago
Until you tell me your religion your post will not be accepted Gixy. This is the third time I have asked you.
Bingolly1 3 years ago
worshipping mary clearly violates commandents 1 - 3
Gixyournightmare 3 years ago
Your ignornace of the Catholic Church is obvious. I ask what your religion is. Tell me or stop posting.
Bingolly1 3 years ago
Catholics do not worship Mary. we honor her (through veneration). "we believe in one God..." (apostles creed).
please educate yourself in the Catholic faith before you start assuming things. thanks.
jfulbright90 3 years ago
Why are you venerating Mary? You claim to give Christians answers, but sir how can you defend Catholicism? I would like to discuss that with you. How do you defend Catholicism with Scripture?
Gixyournightmare 3 years ago
Easy to defend Catholism with the Bible since that is where their doctrines come from. It is difficult to defend your beliefs because you are probably a Protestant and you have thrown sevenh books of the Biblke away so please do not tell me you believe the Bible.. So what is your religion?
Bingolly1 3 years ago
Those seven books obviously disagree with the rest of scripture seeing as jesus' half siblings are mentioned in the canon, and your books claim that Mary was a perpetual virgin... And if you must know my religion, I am an Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal, unashamedly.
Lman146 2 years ago
Where did I mention deuterocanonical, I stated 2 apocryphal books and one early church father commentary that were non-canonical. They still have historical value. Especially the early church fathers. In this case illustrating writings that discussed the Marys perpetual virginity, in that she was a consecrated virgin to the Lord.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
The deuterocanonical books are a different subject and are not apocryphal books and should not have been removed from any bible. She didnt have other children, there is no proof, but you can find those answers in the comment section.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
There is much confusion in the world now, regarding God and Christianity, you can see this all over the internet. I am unashamedly Catholic and believe in the Holy Trinity, oneness is an error, If God is only one person than why does the Bible repeatedly use plural pronouns for God? For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." I John 5:7, Throughout the Bible it gives testimony of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
I believe everything you said, that is my view of Jesus almost to a tee. The only thing I think I disagree with is that she was a perpetual virgin. Even if those books have historical value, if they contradict the rest of it, I won't consider them. Matthew 13:55, Matthew 27:56, Mark 3:31, and Mark 6:3 all show that Jesus had brothers.
Lman146 2 years ago
Read closely to sort it out, There are three Jamess - [1. James] cousin of Jesus, brother of Joses, son of Mary wife of Cleophas, his sister would be Salome, Jn 19:25, Mk 15:40 [2. James the less] Son of Alphaeus, his brother was Jude, and [3. James the greater] son of Zebedee aka sons of thunder, his brother was St. John writer of the 4th gospel, his epistles and the book of revelation, Mk 10:35.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
The verses you gave don't prove he had biological siblings. None of them had a father named Joseph including [Simon] who was son of Jona, his brother was Andrew, Jn 1:42. [Judas] was son of a man name Simon Jn 13:26. And brethren often would mean, the community of believers, or to refer even to a cousin.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
but the verses I gave, specifically Mk 6:3 do not specify their fathers at all. It would be unnecessary, because Jesus' mother was already shown to be their mother. There can be multiple people with the same name, you know.
Lman146 2 years ago
and I gave verse back that specifically showed those men and even the woman had different fathers than Jesus. And I showed these different James's as well and Mary's. Mk 6:3 compared to other verses show they were cousins, and there is no hebrew or Aramaic name for cousin. And brethern doesn't always mean blood brother, see Catholic answers Brethren of the Lord. You didn't answer my question why did Mary go with John if she had other children? That would have been very important to Jesus.
Bingolly1 2 years ago
Before Jesus died HE told his Mother, Mother there is your son referring to John, and then He told John, John there is your mother.
Also in the bible,Jesus' mom came along with jesus' brothers looking for Jesus. Inside they told Jesus your mom is outside looking for you but Jesus said. My mother and brother are the ones that do my fahter's will.
in ther lord's prayer he show us how to pray to the fahter, the son and Holy Spirit, He did not told us to ask the virgin Mary for anythig.
melvinygloria 3 years ago
Your misunderstanding of the Catholic faith is very clear. I suggest you learn your own faith before talking about others. Thanks
Bingolly1 3 years ago
But then you do not have your faith listed on your profile page. What is your faith SDA?
Bingolly1 3 years ago
Grace must reign in all conversations about God. He is the Graceful One and we must follow his lead. God bless you all for you questions and your answers. Please be kind to one another. Show patience and tenderness. For we are discussing the kind hearted Jesus and his wonderful Mother. Each one of us is related to each other. Let us keep that in mind. Treat everyone like you would treat Jesus. May angels protect us all. Glory to God in the Highest and Peace to those of good will. alex leitch37
alexleitch37 3 years ago
Romans 5:8, Eph. 2:8. Do you have a scripture that says that God prepared her from the womb? Or is that just one of the Rcc's beliefs.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
Bingolly1. You're one to talk about tradition! You follow a Catholic faith which sees tradition over scripture. Your faith is filled with pagan rituals disguised as being "holy." You follow traditions of men rather than God's truth!
chivahead103 3 years ago
Actually my comments about people complaining that Catholic Church following tradition is a rebuttal to the thousands of protestants that make up their own traditions of men beginning with their founders of their church. The Catholic Church follows the traditions of the early church and there are plenty of writings to prove it is Catholic.
And since you are claiming we practice pagan rituals you need to back that up with some facts other than coming to my channel slinging mud.
Bingolly1 3 years ago
And btw what religion are you or Christian denomination do you belong to? You seem to want to complain about mine, but do not disclose what you believe.
Bingolly1 3 years ago
I don't think it would matter if i tolled you, you would probably have something negative to say about it, but since you asked so nicely, i'm an evangelical, spirit filled, member of the Body of Christ.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
BB If you hit view all comments my question was directed to the individual named chivahead who said my faith was filled with pagan rituals. I don't think I was negative considering the insulting way they are claiming the Catholic faith is pagan. He listens to too many traditions of men and has nothing to back it up with but with more false witness.
Bingolly1 3 years ago
Can you back up your claim that Mary was without sin with scripture, or are you just like all the other false religions that twist scripture to suit your own doctrine, i hear you say in some of your other posts that you say God is all powerful and he could have kept Mary without sin, have you ever considered that God being all powerful would have cleansed the vessel he would enter this world through before entering it?
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I can turn that question back one you, "Can you back up your claim that Mary was [with] sin using scripture, or are you just like all the other false religions that twist scripture to suit your own doctrine,"
The early church always believed this, and Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli believed that Mary was always a virgin. Why did the later Protestants throw this belief out and by whose authority?
Bingolly1 3 years ago
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.All is all and this would include Mary,do you have a scripture that specifically excludes her from the"all"? Even Mary acknowledge that she needed a savior Luke 1:47 And my heart rejoices in God my savior.If you have no sin why would you need a savior? Darwin believed in evolution does that make him right? millions of people believe that a baby is not human till it has left the womb does that make them right?
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
bibleorbust, Mary didn't say my spirit rejoices in my Savior who will soon arrive and save me later, she speaks in the here and now, (My savior) she was already saved because God made her that way and filled her with Grace to carry His Son. How could she have sin in her if she was full of grace? She had to be pure for God to dwell there. Paul much later after the fact stated all have sinned. Mary obviously didn't fall short of the Glory of God or she wouldn't have been blessed among women.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
I don't know what Darwin has to do with the early protestants believing Mary was always a virgin. If you think it is a theory you are incorrect, it was something that is shown in scripture, taught and believed by the earliest Christians way before the early protestants. I don't understand why it was something that later protestants would throw out of Christian teaching and dishonor her after 1500 years? The bible says all generations will call her blessed, that would include this one. God bless
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
The reason i gave the examples of Darwin and abortion was in response to this comment from bingolly;The early church always believed this, and Luther,Calvin,And Zwingli believed that Mary was always a virgin.The point was that just because someone believes that something is true,doesnt mean that it is,the burden of proof is yours,still waiting for that scripture that says that Mary had no sin,if she said my spirit rejoices in God my saviour, then God was her saviour.What did he save her from?
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
The truth that Mary was without sin and comparing it to some type of running theory that has been developed like Darwin's is not a wise one. Heaven forbid, we see people are turning scripture into personal theories and making new doctrine everyday. What will develop from these theories later? There is already thousands of protestants who all believe very different from the early church and Luther and what is believed about Jesus Christ is eroding daily.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
The Christian Church 'always' believed Mary was a virgin and holy. If she was filled with Grace how could she be in a state of sin too? Jesus is God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit co-equal co-eternal co-existent. Jesus is God in the flesh. What did God save her from? As I mentioned He had already saved her, since the bible says she was full of grace.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Saving grace was something no one received until Christ, but Mary had it already because we believe God preserved her from original sin, and since she was in a state of grace and filled with it obviously she had no personal sin either. I think it is highly unlikely that she lost her grace somewhere and did not endure til the end? The Greek word for this kind of grace is kecharitomene meaning she was perfect endowed already with it. This is used no where else in scripture except Luke 1:28.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Regarding abortion if people read early church writings such as the Didache maybe they would Christians always believed killing the unborn was murder instead of some sort of developing theory. In the first century The Teaching of the Twelve said, do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. People will read secular historians and believe what they have to say or the Jewish historian Josephus, but will total ignore what the ancient church wrote and believed. God bless you!
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Oh, w/ the mention of the early church, We believe in tradition, that tradition is the teaching of Christ, and the apostles handed to the early church and to us. We dont believe in the modern traditions of men who have thrown out what was always believed. The bible didnt come together until around 360 or so, until then and even now we believe this. Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold [the traditions] which you have learned, whether [by word], or [by our epistle.]
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Two things you could consider #1 God is all powerful, it is within his power do anything he wills, he could have cleansed Mary of her sin before entering her womb #2 Mary was still under the old covenant so she would be practicing blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of her sin, so maybe she was clean when the spirit of God came upon her.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
BB you stated that already and I answered why I do not believe your assumption. I believe what the church has always taught about the virginity of Mary. I have no reason to believe modern traditions of men that have popped up in numbers for the past 500 years and have decided to deconstruct in various ways what has been believed by the church for 2000 years. For me there is no valid reason looking at scripture as a whole, the early church teaching, and writings to believe anything different.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Wow you still don't get what i was trying to say. Just like Darwin has no evidence for evolution you also have no scriptural evidence that Mary was without sin , show me one scripture in the Bible that says Mary was without sin, your theories mean nothing your doctrinal beliefs mean nothing the Word of God is truth.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I understood what you said, I did give you scriptural evidence. Mary was full of Grace, if someone is full of Grace they can not be in a state of sin. That means she was sinless, she had a special grace given to her by God, not something she did on her own, although she did with her free will remain obedient to the Lord. That is not a theory, but if you want to believe it is then so be it, believe as you like, I know what the church believes and scripture and it does not go against God. Peace
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
You said, "your theories mean nothing, your doctrinal beliefs mean nothing, the Word of God is truth."
I am not trying to be insulting at all it is just perplexing to me, which one of the thousands of ever splitting protestant denominations has the truth of God's word, when there are so many interpretations of God's word? God bless
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
So she was a sinner up to the point that the angel said, hail one having received grace the Lord is with you.
What was the Church called befor man put a name on it? The original split came from the RCC ,so should you judge anyone else?
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
So she was a sinner up to the point that the angel said, hail one having received grace the Lord is with you.
According to who and what verse of scripture she was a sinner before? I see no evidence of this? And it would not go with the truth of scripture. As I said, the Greek word for full of grace is kecharitomene meaning she was perfectly endowed with Grace already, it wasnt something that occurred later. "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with the." Luke 1:28
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
The name of the Church? Christ gave His apostles authority, in early church writings St. Ignatius who was ordained by St. Peter used the Greek word katholikos, his letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8, of 107 A.D., "Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St. Polycarp who died in AD 155 called the church Catholic many times. There are more early Christian writings that attest to the name. Who named your church?
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Regarding the Catholic Church split? Split for whom? It has been teaching the same biblical truth for 2000 years. I wasnt condemning either, I was making a discernment about all the many different churches and individuals who claim they only have the truth in the interpretation of Gods word, it is most certainly a cause for concern for a new convert to the Christian faith.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Well according to the Bible Romans 3:23 all have sinned.I don't see Marys Name being excluded in this scripture do you?Now we are getting to what the RCC needs to assume,accept and believe in order for Mary to be without sin,was her mother without sin, her grandmother,all the way back to Eve,why was Adam/Eve kicked out of Eden? please add scripture reference for all of them.Or did the grace that God gave her in Luke cleans her from sin at that moment so that she could be a pure vessel for God?
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I am aware that you think the perpetual virginity of Mary is made up outside of the realm of God and scripture because it challenges new traditions which are thinking in the flesh, not according to Gods will to bring about the completion of salvation. The idea that her mother and her mothers mother etc, is not the logic of the church or mine, that is a presupposition people make about why they think we believe. --
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
So I cant give you scripture on what is not believed or taught by the church. But, I can show you scripture as to why the church has always believed Mary is immaculate and its teaching is within scripture and would be according to the Lord and how he prepares those He chooses. --
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
She was cleansed from original sin in her mothers womb and chosen by God, and this is completely with in the realm of how the Lord works. People in the bible have been conceived sanctified. The Lord said to Jeremiah, "I have sanctified thee before thou didst leave the womb of thy mother" (Jer 1:5). St. John the Forerunner was sanctified while still in the womb of St. Elizabeth (Luke 1:15 & 41)
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Would the Mother of God be granted less a privilege than St. John the Baptist, and not receive sanctity in the womb of St. Ann?
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
If no man was greater born to a woman than St. John, do you think Christ was excluding himself, he was born to a woman too and He was of course greater than John the Baptist, Mark 1:7. If the forerunner for Christ was sanctified in his mothers womb, and Marys womb being the temple of God for 9 months it perfectly within the realm of how the Lord works His miracles. Full of grace, tells us she was sanctified endowed with grace.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
It's very biblical that God would sanctify the woman he chose carry his son, there is no reason to think she lost this grace while raising His son and throughout her life. If God expected the Ark of the Covenant a wooden box to be sanctified before He dwelled there I am certain He would expect Mary to be a holy temple before the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and before Christ would dwell there for 9 months. He chose her sanctified Mary in the womb, and she lived a life dedicated to God.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
I have to ask, but dont take this as insulting, do you think God would just randomly clean up some harlot and instantly purify them having lived an un-dedicated, un-obedient life to Him and have His Son dwell in in the womb and be raised by an unfaithful woman? She had to be sanctified, instead of it being cleansed by Priest like the ark, God himself cleansed Mary and endowed her with grace, He prepared her from the beginning of her life in the womb to have His Son. Have a blessed day.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Yes, it is Biblical that God would sanctify the woman he chose to carry his son, the question is what did he sanctify her from? if she was without sin she would have no need for the sanctification. No one said that she lost grace while raising Jesus, no one said that she didn't live a life dedicated to God, but living a life dedicated to God would mean that she would need to fulfill her marriage duties and that would mean she and Joseph consummated the marriage.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I just showed you scriptural proof, secondly you dont have to accept it. Also I took nothing out of context, but showed how it was in context with scripture. Why is it that it bothers you that Mary was endowed with grace by God and remained a virgin, you act as if it is un-holy for the Mother of God to be holy. This obviously comes for all these new age traditions that cant even see holiness in people God chose.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Its hard to accept scripture that is not, their. DO you think that you cant live a holy life and still fulfill your marriage duties? what would be unholy about Mary being intimate with Joseph? It doesn't bother me that she had Grace, we who accept it receive Gods grace through Jesus death on the cross.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I showed you scripture where God sactified others in their mothers womb. Do you think God would let the stain of Original sin or personal sin touch Christ, of course Mary was sanctified from both original sin and personal sin. Do you think God would allow satan to touch his son with any kind of sin? Christ flesh was Mary's flesh, if she was stained with original sin he would have the same stain, she had to be sanctified. That is why she is full of grace.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Being stuck your idea of Mary's "duty" What you can not see is that St. Joseph was obedient to God from the time he took Mary for his wife she was already impregnated by the Holy Spirit, this was Gods plan, it was Josephs bloodline that gave the public appearance that Christ was from the line of David, but Christ actual Davidic blood lineage came through Mary. Mary was/is the hidden unknown Queen of the Davidic Kingdom as promised by God, Christ would come through King Davids seed.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Joseph protection for the Holy Family was arranged by God in countless ways. Mary never belonged to Joseph even before they were betrothed or after, she was a consecrated virgin to God. Why all the danger, God could have waited until Joseph took Mary into his house as his wife then let her conceive by the Holy Spirit, but God wanted to make it perfectly clear that Jesus was born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Both Joseph and Mary knew that she belonged to the Lord, both were chosen to carry out His divine plan. Joseph protected the Ark (Mary) that carried Gods Son, he protected and raised Christ according to Gods will, not his own. Why would Joseph be intimate with Mary who was already consecrated to God?
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Matthew 1:25 what do you think Knew her not means? dose it mean that they did not talk until she had given birth.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
The "until" question is a non-issue and has already been answered in the comment section by several people. Just hit view all comments if you are interested.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Wow you just answered my last post, so she was sanctified from sin in the womb, thank you for that, so now we know that she was a sinner. Now all we need is a scripture that says she did not sin from the time she was born to the time of her conception, or we can believe that God sanctify her just before he entered her womb.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I said she was sanctified in the womb of her mother St. Ann. How could she be a sinner full of grace? Obviously she committed no personal sin w/ her own free will since she was full of grace when the angel greeted her. You said, where is scripture that says she didnt sin from the time she was born to the time of her conception? You have that backwards dont you, she was conceived (her conception in her own mothers womb) then she was born. How does one sin from the womb to their birth?
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Please show me the scripture that say that Mary was immaculately conceived, i don't want a scripture that is twisted to say what you want it to say, please don't be like the sda and take a bunch of scriptures out of context and put them together.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I already explained God sanctified her from original sin. When the angel greeted her full of grace it is obvious something that had happened already before his greeting. The marriage duties? You are in the flesh preoccupied w/ this "duty" as you call it. I explained that already, but I am not on trial here, you are putting Christ and his Mother on trial & accusing her of being unholy and claiming she had any kind of sin when Christ was in her womb is to say satan tainted Christ.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Furthermore, with your modern traditions of men you chose to ignore scripture as a whole and think it is just to be used for verse slinging to suit your modern doctrines and think it is only useful to use it to condemn others with it, instead of understanding it as a whole. We believe in tradition, and that tradition comes from Christ, the Apostles, and early church fathers handed on to those ordained to persevere Gods truth.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
The non biblical sola scriptura is a protestant fallacy used to deny true scripture and traditions taught by the church. Sadly that is why there are so many protestant doctrines out there by the thousands. 2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Your learned disbelief is non-biblical and deconstructs Gods truth. I have no reason to believe your traditions over the ancient Christian Catholic Church.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
I'm still trying to find where Jesus or the disciples said the hail Mary and them told us to do same. I'm also trying to find a scripture that say we are to have statues in are church made of wood and bronze, and I cant seem to find a reference in the Bible to the rosary beads, just to name a few. If these where such important traditions held by Jesus and his diciples they would have said so.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
You don't believe 2Th 2:15 and believe sola scriptura only which I can't find in scripture?
All things are not written. John 21:25
Nothing wrong w/ statues, brass, wood, metals, etc. The problem would be making false gods and worshiping them. That would be idol worship, forbidden by God and the Church.
You won't have to look too far regarding things dedicated to God, ie: statues, wood and bronze which are not forbidden. Ex:25 God instructs the ark. And that bronze serpent in Num 21:9?
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Orally recalling Annunciation from Scripture?
We are made a little lower than angels, yet an angel sent by God to speak His message greeted her, Hail,Full of Grace Lk 1:28 and recognized the holiness of the soon to be the Mother of God Lk 1:43, then whats the problem? What other human was ever greeted by an angel in such respect?
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Hail, Mary full of grace Lk 1:28
The Lord is with thee Lk 1:28
Blessed are thou among women Lk 1:28
And blessed is that fruit of thy womb of Jesus Lk 1:42
Holy Mary Lk 1:28
Mother of God Lk 1:43
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death, Amen
Now what is un scriptural about reciting scripture in prayer? The very words God sent the angel Gabriel to speak?
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
If your not going to post my comments then what is the point of answering them?
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
? Don't know what that means, I have answered many of your comments?
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Some of my comments did not get approved. So don't answer the comments that you wont approve, it makes no sense, it sounds like your talking to yourself.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I suggest you either view all comments or keep up with your comments. All your comments have been approved so please do not play that game. Enough time has been wasted on your inability to understand what is being said to you. Thanks
Bingolly1 3 years ago
I was wondering what all that was about? I hit view all comments and I answered a dozen of their questions. Post don't show up in order unless a person hits view all comments.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Ok, that worked. I was not playing a game, why do you talk down to me, do you feel good putting me down, all through my posts i was trying to be careful not to point a finger at any individual because some people may attend a certain church but still may not hold to all there beliefs. One question is salvation in a church and traditions or is salvation in Jesus alone? John 3:16
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
When the disciples asked Jesus how to pray what did he say to them? Was it the Hail Mary? And i see no scripture reference for Pray for us sinners and Now and at the time of are death. Who are you praying to?
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
Protestants lead prayer with many verses and parts of scripture. There is nothing forbidden that we can recall scripture in prayer, there are 100's of verses in the New Testament that speak of praying, prayer, pray, ask God, etc. Example of those in Heaven praying for us are found in the Old and New Testaments from the Patriarchs to angels, you will have to look them up. Your modern traditions don't allow you to understand scripture beyond argument for whatever protestant group you belong to.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
As a Catholic I am aware each protestant group thinks they are Holy Spirit guided to thousands of interpretations of scripture, but none of them are in accord. The Holy Spirit does not cause such confusion. There are many protestant tired invalid arguments against Catholic teaching, we have dealt with these denials for 500 years. I am not persuaded by 500 year old traditions that did not come from Christ, the apostles, or the early church.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
It appears you are more interested in your points of argument for the sake of argument than having a sincere desire to know what we teach, and because of that I am ending the conversation. If you are sincere about learning more on your own then, the USCCB is online and has a great deal of information. I doubt it will help dispel the presumptions you already believe about the Catholic Church or scripture. But, God bless you in your studies.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
I was trying to understand why you practice your traditions, I just wanted you to show me if any of them had a scriptural base. Just one more question, can anyone be saved apart from the Catholic Church?
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
Our traditions come from Christ, they come from scripture, the apostles, the early church, they started during the life of Christ and from 33 AD they have continued to be handed on. I have given you scripture in context, but the only feedback I get is, "but what about until" or her "duty" if you are unwilling to see past invalid assumptions then are you sincerely trying to understand. Seems to me you just want to understand things that fit into little words like until or duty etc.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Re: "can be saved apart from the Catholic Church?" God will be the judge, which depends on the light one has received, it also depends on the light one has rejected too.
(Lumen Gentium), "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience those too may achieve eternal salvation"
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
So if i reject most of the RCC traditions but accept and believe in Jesus i can have eternal life? Is are salvation based on the traditions we keep or is salvation in Jesus alone? Oh and to answer one of your other posts i have agreed with you on some points.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
Jesus alone. Sola Scriptura.
nikki2christ 2 years ago
So you don't have scriptures for the last two verses of the hail Mary.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I hoped you would look for those on your own? You want me to prove everything to you, what do you prove to yourself? What have you proven to me with your modern doctrine? I see no evidence that you have believed anything I have shown you yet or even a hint of seeing the possibility of scripture in a different light. Would you accuse me of just talking to myself? It appears I have been or I may as well be because your mind is closed to seeing something different.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Oh, and the rosary? It's the oral recall of the entire gospel just about, from the Annunciation to Pentecost. I can't cite all the scripture for it, there are too many verses of scripture to cite.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
If its not made up outside the realm of God and the Bible them show me a scripture that says that Mary never had sex with Joseph after she had Jesus, Because part of being obedient to God would be fulfilling her marriage duties. What does Mary half to do with the completion of Gods salvation? Heb 12:2 Jesus is the author and finisher of are faith, He completed the His plan of salvation when He died on the cross.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
I answered this post already.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
If its not made up outside the realm of God and the Bible them show me a scripture that says that Mary never had sex with Joseph after she had Jesus, Because part of being obedient to God would be fulfilling her marriage duties. What does Mary half to do with the completion of Gods salvation? Heb 12:2 Jesus is the author and finisher of are faith, He completed the His plan of salvation when He died on the cross.
Bibleorbust 3 years ago
If one is thinking in their flesh and not Godly ways I suppose they'd think that. There is no command that it was her duty. What man would have intercourse with a woman who conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and who's body was the Ark that carried the Son of God? She belonged to God before she married Joseph, she was a consecrated virgin, God placed her in Joseph's care as protector. Besides I am sure St. Joseph being a good obedient Jewish man to the Lord knew about Uzzah 2 Samuel 6.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
You said, "What does Mary half to do with the completion of Gods salvation?"
I didn't say Mary completed God's salvation plan.
I said, "new traditions which are thinking in the flesh not according to Gods will to bring about the completion of salvation."
We can see God's will to bring about salvation using His faithful servants. That being said, Eve's disobedience brought sin to the world, Mary's obedient yes to the Lord brought salvation not by her power, but by the power of Jesus Christ.
FamaNihilEstCelerius 3 years ago
Matthew 1:25 says "Knew Her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Knew in Greek means- 1097(ginōskō)-Jewish idiom(language,expression,dialect) for Sexual Intercourse between a man and a woman.
Mary was espoused to Joseph- Luke 1:27, so Joseph had to wait until after Mary gave birth and maybe a couple of months before sleeping with her. No man marry a woman for no reason, so is common sense that they obviously slept with each other.
pisceangirl38 3 years ago
Joseph and Mary were chosen by God to raise His Son, there is no proof they had other children or that they had intercourse. Their reason for wedding was because God placed them together for the reason of His Son. This has always been believed by the early church, I don't know what year your tradition began with the founders of your religion, but I will stick to what the early church believes and not you or your preacher traditions and interpretation of scripture.
Bingolly1 3 years ago
I missed it. If Mary had other children how is she still a virgin? Jesus was her first so after him wouldn't she technically not be a virgin anymore.
stopplayingchurch 3 years ago
The term brother when used of Jesus' brother can mean next of kin as well. Cousins or some other relative and not necessarily a brother. Then if a person has not had a relationship with a man then she would still be a virgin. Thanks
Bingolly1 3 years ago
I have come to the conclusion that Mary was a virgin and remained a virgin not because of any traditions or modes of thought but because of scripyure when int mentions james being jesus brother it just means mate or brother we read that he had other parents in mark 15:40 and we know there was at least 3 marys in the bible to and james mary and jesus were real common in those days to not to be confused jesus had not brothers and sisters and joseph disappeared when jc was 15 he may have died?
gilbertobesanko 3 years ago
There are alot of misconceptions of mary, 1) nowhere in the Bible does it say that she remained a virgin 2) nowhere in the bible does it say she is queen of heaven. 3) nowhere in the Bible does it say that mary was without sin 4) nowhere in the bible does it say that mary deserves any special honor 5) nowhere in the bible does it say that she intercedes for us. Now if the bible does says such as these are true, then show me where, otherwise such claims in adding to and taking away scripture
DerektheDuctTape 3 years ago