Holocaust survivor Szymon Srebnik returns to Chełmno (1985)

[zentrallondon]

Of course there were Anti-Semitic incidents, and few pogroms after the war, but lets try to remember the good things, like the amount of Poles in Righteous among Nations(1st place), Poland created the biggest anti-nazi movement in occupied Europe, underground Gov. created ZEGOTA the only gov. scheme helping Jews, French surrounded straight away and pack all the Jews to trains to Auschwitz...

[RussMoxham]

@magyar369 I'd say they were quite effective, but thankfully not as effective as they'd have liked. Send my regards to the Arrow Cross Party. And then put all the members in a death camp, if you like.

[MIHALIS888]

so what if there was antisemitism in Poland? There was antisemitism when Shakespeare wrote "merchant of Venice"... But there are also people who hate Americans, people who hate Germans (killed 12 mil of them after the WW2...), people that hate blacks, communists, people that hate those who support a different football team etc. There's so much hate to go around! Why is hating Jews different? Stalin killed 20 mil of his hated rivals. But that doesn't qualify as the biggest crime of modern time?

[RussMoxham]

Anti-Semitism is never a 'so what', anywhere, in my opinion. Nor is any of these other forms of prejudice. They're only a 'so what' for people who don't face them or don't have the compassion to care. But if (if) you read the info, it's clear I've posted this stuff in response to YouTube comments to the effect that there has never been Polish anti-Semitism. Of course there has, just because there's prejudice everywhere.

[MIHALIS888]

@RussMoxham

Before I commented I read your info n your profile. Now using irony with "if"s is just typical in youtube! Everyone thinks is right. You call on prejudice but u yourself are prejudiced. U invented a rule: "everyone who comments unfavorably on antisemitism hasn't faced prejudice or is insensitive". This rule self-servingly makes u appear like a victim of prejudice or a sensitive person hiding the fact that you are the attacker. Because u know nothing about me but you pre-judged me.

[RussMoxham]

To me this is just humanity. I don't care where the heck someone comes from or what kind of building they do or don't worship in. If they don't have a problem with me and don't want me dead, why should I have ill feelings toward them?

[RussMoxham]

The main point is that anti-Semitism is not about dealing with individuals. It's about compartmentalising people and saying they're Jews, they must be... whatever. I don't care. They're people. We're all people. We all get up, eat, drink, sleep, maybe have fun and a couple of kids at some point. All this other hate stuff is just so much nonsense, whoever is doing it, and whoever is the victim.

[RussMoxham]

Misyu44, I know the Nazis were in charge of the camps, and that there were actually some Jewish 'capos' who did some of the work for the Nazis, hoping this would save them. I expect there were also Slavic and Roma capos, etc., too.

None of this changes the fact that there clearly have been pogroms in Poland (one is too many, I think) or that some people (for some reason) choose to deny this completely. That's all.

I'm British, but I don't deny the worst of the empire or the slave trade.

[doesntfitinatag]

I don't understand polish language but I remember exactly what they where saying. Prejudism like antisemetism has nothing to do with Poland Russia Yugoslavia or even Germany. Brainwashed and narrow minded people are found everywhere in the world. People who hide in the middle of a herd are the crucial mass for things like the holocaust.

Thanks for uploading this masterpiece of seventh art.

[doesntfitinatag]

I remember watching this documentary more than 10 years ago, but I didn't remember the title. I made some efforts to find it by using plot keywords in imdb, but without success.

This scene hunted my brain for more than ten years and this is the first time I watch it since then.

[djudeo]

ptasznick2, tell me something, I've always been curious about the translation. It's accurated? The translator says more or less what the peasants say? And also, I don't know french, but, the translator at the end gets angry with Lanzmann? It seemed to me

[hminkema]

Google for "or even that Christ sought revenge" (use quotation marks). You will find a transcription of the whole fragment.

My (imperfect) command of Polish tells me she is translating quite well, even though she has to make selections of the many voices talking at the same time.

No, the translator does not get angry with Lanzmann. I got angry with him, because of his manipulative techniques. These are the only people in the 9 hour docu that Lanzmann did not give names. These are 'the Poles'.

[djudeo]

Lanzmann gave names of the peasants who tell him facts. I think he didn't do that in this part of the video because there where too much people speaking. I remember the train's driver and the fat polish man, they give their names there.

[RussMoxham]

What's so manipulative? He asks questions, he gets answers. He hasn't exactly got these people at gunpoint or in a courtroom.

[historicrecord]

Russ - do you have the version with the English sub-titles ?

[RussMoxham]

Alas, no. The subtitles were contained in a separate file.

[RussMoxham]

Many good points, ptasznick2. But such people made up most of the population in big areas of Poland and much of Central/Eastern Europe at the time of the film. It's fair to approach them for popular beliefs. Their excitement here may make the answers more telling, not less. And many knew Jews were dying, or there wouldn't be this rabbi story. Many just felt the Jews deserved to die, because of the Crucifixion. You don't need an education to see through that, just some human feeling.

[ptasznick2]

of course your points are also pretty good. I wanted to explain that despite large number of people i Central Europe were close to those shown, it's unfair to extrapolate judgments on other demographics. Primo: these are simple, poor, and poor educated people. Secundo: they are imtimidated by shear thought of standing in front of the camera, and western (exotic) people. Tertio: They are asked irrelevant questions. As for the knowledge of whats going on in extermination camps - yes, people knew..

[djudeo]

but you cannot deny about the great hatred of some poles to jews... what about Kielce, with people killing holocaust survivor by hitting them because of false blood libels? It's a fact that there where a lot of antisemitism in Poland. It's a fact also that not all poles were antisemitic, but we cannot hide the first thing

[hminkema]

Can you tell us anything serious about how pre-war Polish antisemitism related to Jewish antipolonism? There was a cohabitation, there were mutual prejudices, there was some mutual resentment, there was some getting-along, and there was a *relatively* good environment for the Polish and Jewish society and culture to develop.

'Antisemitic' Poles never asked the Germans to invade their country and kill 6 million Jews and non-jews.

The Kielce and Jedwabne pogroms were exceptions and you know it.

[djudeo]

Well, I have to say you're right, but not totally... It's true Poland had a "relatively" good enviroment for Jews, better than Russia or even France, but at the time of the WWII there were several demonstrations of hatred against jews and also some people helping them. It's true people always confuse the colaboration of Lithuanians and Ukranians , who killed Jews "by hand" without any german order, with Polish colaborasionism

[RussMoxham]

I don't want to apportion varying degrees of blame or whatever. It would just be nice if all peoples in all countries could acknowledge the darker aspects of their histories and not just the pretty bits.

[hminkema]

It would be nice if you could acknowledge the darker aspect of this video posting, and not just the self-imagined pretty bits.

[mister8master]

"all peoples in all countries could acknowledge the darker aspects of their histories" - very well, when will Jews acknowladge the crimes made by the soviet Jews?

No idea if it was translated, that man said what he saw in Międzyrzec, that Jewsih RABIN spoke to the crowd bout some "punishment" for killing Jesus, it`s not as you wrote in description "some hint at a possible justification"... that "some" was a Jewish rabin.

[RussMoxham]

mister8master, do you honestly think this rabbi existed? Do you think there was some rabbi walking around in Poland saying the Holocaust was all the fault of the Jews, because they weren't Christians?! It seems clear to me that is a MYTH, an EXCUSE.

And no crime of any Soviet Jew has anything to do with the Holocaust one way or another.

You excuse murder if you like. I do not.

[mister8master]

Don`t remember what you`re reffering to since you deleated my comment... but i can`t remember myselve excusing ANY murders.

I just say what i`ve heard in that video, call it "antisemitism" or whatever, that`s what is said in it by a witness.

But of course they had alot to do with many pogroms organised by the soviets, some of which had to serve as an excuse for the occupation, most notably Kielce pogrom. Not to mention that the very same soviets were Hitler`s allies until 1941...

[RussMoxham]

Thank you for commenting again, mister8master, but I think you made a few too many points too quickly for me to understand you at the end there. Who are 'they'? ;)

[mister8master]

@RussMoxham - come on...

You said "And no crime of any Soviet Jew has anything to do with the Holocaust one way or another." - i ment "they" - the soviets, including soviet Jews.

[RussMoxham]

Then why can't everybody at least acknowledge these pogroms (and/or any of the others), at least as exceptions? It's because they do not that I posted these clips. I've never suggested (or felt) that the pogroms were anything other than exceptions, but the fact that they were exceptions does not make them any less important, atrocious, etc.

[hminkema]

Again you are implying that people 'don't acknowledge these pogroms'. Strange. People were tried and punished for it many decades ago. People learn about it at school. Could it be that you see ghosts and fight them?

[RussMoxham]

Uh, no. Such reactions clearly show that certain Poles (along with certain Lithuanians, Belarussians, etc.--not that anyone is any better or worse than anyone else) have not come to terms with the occasionally ugly reality of their history. Some see any mention of anti-Semitism in their countries, past or present, as an insult. Why? Either they deny the whole thing, which seems ridiculous, or they admit it's happened but they find it too difficult to deal with it. Neither position works.

[ptasznick2]

I made my point in previus comments. Primo: Simple people. Secundo: intimidation by the camera and wester people. Tertio: irrelevant questions. On the other hand - people in Poland knew what was going on in extermination camps - do not believe deniers - my grandmother told me that shew knew (my city is close to Belzec), but what was there to do about it? Helping Jews had much to do with extraordinary courage, couse of the penalties (death - common... even a standard penalty)...

[ptasznick2]

...in a mater of fact - large number of Jews knew their fate - and there were actions taken to inform western world (mainly america). We all know little effect that these missions brought. But what other things could people do for Jews other than giving some of them (strictly penalized!) shelter. As a mater of fact - propably most of the shelters given were in villages and small cities, due to little smaller risk... Of course there ware many unmoral acts of betraing Jews and giving nazis...

[ptasznick2]

..their wherabouts. This should, has been and IS actually condemned by vast majority of Poles. One has to remeber that people who gave Jews to nazis, were mainly "wise guy" type of people in cities. I don't think that ANY nation in the world is free of such people, therefore i guess that picking Poles as the ones who have such behaviour coded psychically in very injust to other Poles. Very beautifull example of polish behaviour were secret tribunals withing Polish Undeground State...

[ptasznick2]

and National Army (AK), which condemned those people (called: szabrownicy), and gave many verdicts and death sentences on some of these "wise guys", many of which have been completed. One should take into account that such underground trials despite hard conditions have been very strictly executed and it was hard to put death sentence on someone 'trading' with Jews due to lack of evidence. Nontheless such attitude was pretty exeptional at Europe at that time...

[ptasznick2]

And last but not least. I feel very bad due to distincions made nowadays and assesment of harm dealt upon Jews and Poles. Both Jews (mostly Polish citizens) and Poles suffered enormous amouth of evil. Both Jews and Poles had about 6 million casualties during IIWW. Both Jews and Poles have been exterminated in death camps (way smaller amouth of Poles - but still). I believe that Polish stance regarding Jews was that bad to pick Poles as particulary responsible for the extermination...

[ptasznick2]

I guess that only way out of this dead-end street is to step back of such discussions which tends to oppose Jews and Poles - but show both as victims of nazi - and latter stalin crimes. Above all that - i don't see a point in picking christianity and catolics and blaming religion for exterminations, because this is the weakest explanation of the complex situation in my opinion. I think that christianity contributed to saving many Jews because of "love thy neighbour" rule.

[ptasznick2]

Due to reasons shown in my commentaries, and many, many more stories that a person cannot tell because of limitations of that forum - I don't see Poles as any special contributors to Jew extermination and Holocaust. I'm shocked how many articles are published that tend to show aus as bad guys, but believe me - we aren't. I guess the reason for this is that camps were situated in nazi-occupied poland, and many Jews exterminated were Polish. I just don't think it's right. Sorry for post order...

[RussMoxham]

ptasznick2, let me say again that I am not singling out the Poles as bad guys. The only reason anti-Semitism has not been a bigger problem in modern Britain is that we British expelled most of our Jews centuries ago.

I've only posted these clips from 'Shoah' because some Poles on here have strongly denied that there has ever been Polish anti-Semitism. They are wrong.

When he visited the liberated Ohrdruf camp in Germany in1945, Eisenhower knew there had been a Polish pogrom days before.

[hminkema]

"I've only posted these clips because some Poles on here have strongly denied that there has ever been Polish anti-Semitism."

You have posted this explanation over and over again.

Yet you never referred to these presumed deniers in a concrete way. You never posted your clips as direct 'video responses' to their presumed video's. And you never participated in discussions with these presumed deniers, in which you proved them wrong.

So I have a certain hesitation in accepting your explanation.

[RussMoxham]

hminkema, I would have been very happy to post these videos as video responses, but the people whose denials I refer to--the ones I have seen--have been posted as comments on other people's videos. You should probably stop trying to do a 'hatchet job' on my reasoning, because yours isn't so great either, or at least you often jump to the wrong conclusion, perhaps willingly, and ultimately you just end up looking as if I've offended you, perhaps by telling the truth.

[ptasznick2]

of course i meant "stance regarding Jews WASN'T that bad to pick Poles as particulary responsible for the extermination..." sorry for the typo.

[RussMoxham]

ptasznick2, to say that these are/were common people (as if that were a bad thing or something, incidentally) is to make no point at all. Who better than the common people to convey a sense of common perceptions? Plus I don't accept that they're intimidated here. Some of them seem only too pleased to present their opinions, with what seems to be genuine conviction.

All the same, I appreciate many of your comments.

[hminkema]

So what is it that there common people are 'genuinely convicted' of? You are still grossing in innuendo, and evading the situation in which you can be proven wrong.

Please, don't appreciate my comments. Answer my critical questions, that will do.

[RussMoxham]

hminkema, if you mean what these people are (or seem to be) genuinely convinced of, then you have only to consider the clip itself. I do not want to tell you what to think of it, but you can expect me to respond to any substantial criticism you make.

[hminkema]

"Their excitement here may make the answers more telling".

So what exactly do their answers tell you? Be explicit, please. Leave aside the innuendo.

"Many just felt the Jews deserved to die"..

The proof for this statement being what? And what do you mean by 'many'? How many?

I consider your last sentence as an attempt to evade the burden of proof. But you have no monopoly on 'human feeling'. So the burden of proof is still on you.

And my guess is you can't comply.

[RussMoxham]

hminkema, I'm not evading anything by saying the excitement these people show may make their answers more telling, descriptive, revealing, etc. The views they express are the views they express and, to my mind, the fact that they do so so directly (I might say honestly) suggests they are exactly the views they hold. That is the sense in which these answers seem telling to me.

Don't expect me to make you drink as well as leading you to the water. I do expect you to be able to watch and think.

[RussMoxham]

Again, hminkema, I think I'm being confronted with a point I've already made. Obviously the locals welcome Srebnik back, but at the very same time, several talk in terms of the blood curse and suggest the Jews knew what was coming and why. Sorry but I don't buy it. I don't think anyone could have deserved the Holocaust and I don't believe any rabbi was walking around in Poland saying,'OK, we deserve whatever we get.' I don't think Srebnik looks very comfortable at the end of the clip, either.

[ptasznick2]

I've read your discussion and I'm trying to understand your level of understanding these people. You're from UK and I'm Polish so I propably I understand those people better than you in terms of language and in terms of character. I'm wondering what are your tying to show by publishing those clips? Those people asked are mainly simple peasants not knowing much about the world. Many of them lived IIWW and 40 yeas of cummunism after the war. You propably know little if nothing about propagand...

[ptasznick2]

...those people have been facing for a substantial time of their lives. My grandparents come from a small town in easter Poland which was more or less 50/50 Jew to Polish people. Jews could not be treated as a minority. My grandfather as a blacksmith has been forced to rely on Jewish dealers who had monopoly on steel import and trade. When he made his own arragement with steel mill and imported a coach of steel on his own. After that pretty much all Jews turned their backs on streets even...

[ptasznick2]

if they had nothing to do with steel dealership. I've told this story to show you the level of "discussion" between polish and jewish people during pre-war period. This incident clearly shows that there was a distinct border betwwn polish and jewish people in the society which lead to distinction of we and them in the language. Of course my story worked both ways. Nevertheless people in Poland would never want injustice, misery and death happen even to their biggest enemy (say-Nazis) nor Jews...

[ptasznick2]

... Getting back to the clip, I see the guy who stepped in front to tell the story of a rabbi as a "smartest in the village" type uy (if you know what I mean). You have to know it's 1985 - deep communism in poland, and a french film crew comes to remote town in central poland. Most of these people see Frenchmen for the first time in their lives, thay are the "people from the West", so the feel excited and aroused by the idea of having anything to say to "the camera". The crew asks them most...

[ptasznick2]

curious and irrelevant questions. These people are good source of the knowledge about facts, and not about causes of holocaust. They know little about hitler's causes, nazi causes or any causes of extermination. Thay are not the ones who are to explain causes. In fact, they are trying to explain those causes in their own simple way, even if incredible to you and me... That only shows that this documentary is to show authors prejudice, and not the truth. Documentary should be backed with...

[ptasznick2]

proper research method, and allow me to say tht author's method is odd. Woman ask a question "What are your superstitions on why all this happened to Jews?" So those people give her their simple superstitions and beliefs on the causes even if you and me wouldn't agree whit them... I see all clips you show has the same scheme. Find a peasant and provoke him to say something "fascinating". If you agree with this method then say it out loud below in your commentary so everybody can read it. Bye!

[RussMoxham]

As for Jewish trading practices, etc. I feel most of them stem from Christians' increasing social exclusion of the Jews from about the 4th century on. Jews were excluded from many lines of business. They could only lend money because Christians could not. Jews looked after one another in business because of centuries of oppression. They were more and more ghettoised physically, so it's no surprise to me that many were ghettoised mentally. They still did not deserve to be gassed in bread vans.

[hminkema]

In response to Ptasznick2's series of comments, RussMoxham wrote: "They still did not deserve to be gassed in bread vans."

The relevance of this reaction being what?

[RussMoxham]

hminkema, I just marked that as spam accidentally and can't take it back :/ I can't say you're wrong, but I don't believe there were lots of Jews going around praying to the Virgin Mary, etc. in the belief that they were responsible for their imminent slaughter. Still less do I believe there was any rabbi in town who accepted responsibility in terms of the blood curse. That is a Christian obsession. The story smells of myth but the locals accept it as a factual rationalisation of mass murder.

[hminkema]

Your comments show it happened before that you accidentally mark your opponents' response as spam. Take better care.

You have a habit of putting words in your opponent's mouth and then refuting them. It is called a straw man fallacy.

I never said or implied that 'there were lots of Jews ... slaughter', let alone that 'any rabbi ... curse'.

Both are only christian obsessions in your phantasy, by the way.

It is a total factual mistake that 'the locals accept .... murder'. Where's the proof?

[RussMoxham]

Actually, hminkema, I did not say or even imply that you'd said any of these things; who's holding the straw man now? In my view, the bespectacled man's story (like the blood curse) is fantasy. The thing is, many people in the clip seem to accept the story, even echo it, as fact and as a justification for the Holocaust. They effectively suggest that even the town rabbi felt that the Jews deserved to die, because they were not Christians. I view that as accepting murder. Your view may differ.

[hminkema]

You implied them, so you are "holding the straw man now" as you say.

If I write "I agree with you, only I don't think that Santa Claus exists" I imply that you stated that Santa Claus exists.

That the logic of language. Please study it. Because it will tell you more about your own tendency to miscommunicate.

What 'seems' you to be present in the clip, what people 'suggest' and what they 'justify' is a sheer product of your imagination. Please give reckoning of this fact, hard as it may be.

[RussMoxham]

hminkema, please don't pretend you know about my intellectual background. If you want to discuss prepositional logic with me, OK, but most people here don't. At most, they want logical comments.

I don't think you're in a position to say that what seems to me to be present in this clip is pure imagination or whatever, unless you mean there is no physical reality at all.

Plus I don't want to explain everything, because in my view it is the clip that is supposed to matter.

[Misyu44]

@RussMoxham

And why don't you upload all the talk and just the monologue of this guy in glasses?

This is video what they are discussing 10 minutes earlier.

:

watch?v=alns85evKQo

This is disgrace and anti-polonism.

[RussMoxham]

Misyu44, there is a limit to how long a clip can be and this is a clip I particularly wanted to upload. Because I am of the opinion that in many ways the attitude of the crowd here, and the story of the repentant rabbi (who I don't believe can ever have existed as more than a popular myth--something like an urban legend) , either are anti-Semitic or at least hint at popular anti-Semitism.

Anyhow it's really not adequate to say that anything that reflects badly on Poland is polonophobic.

[mister8master]

"anything that reflects badly on Poland ..."

Than what else is?

Whatever if that story is true or not, it`s said by a witness, if you call him "antisemite" than i`m confused about what "antisemitism" is at all...

[RussMoxham]

mister8master, I'm not necessarily saying this speaker is anti-Semitic, unless at least the majority of the townspeople are. Yes, he is only quoting a story... but it effectively excuses the Holocaust. It is attributed to a (nameless?) rabbi who supposedly thinks the Jews have brought genocide upon themselves by not being Christian. I strongly doubt that this rabbi existed, if only for the reason that rabbis were not in the habit of going around saying Jews deserved to be exterminated.

[mister8master]

@RussMoxham - how so? What`s so "antisemitic" about the majority of these people?

No idea how it can excuse holocaust, either it was some urban legend or just some insane preacher.

[RussMoxham]

What I mean is that the story itself is effectively anti-Semitic. The townspeople don't look at it very critically. They certainly don't protest.

In any case, I think Srebnik's face says more than I can about this. To me, he looks very comfortable in the company of these people at the end of the clip. Yet earlier he's seemed quite comfortable and even laughed a little. Mostly what separates the two is a story about a rabbi who supposedly thought the Jews were to blame for the Holocaust...

[mister8master]

@RussMoxham - maybe we have different definitions of what`s "antisemitic", but story is just a story. The people going outside of the church were asked some questions, they just told what they saw and i don`t know why to not belive them.

That were extreme times, some Jews hoped to save thier lives collaborating with nazis, in ghettos were Judenrats and Jewish police, maybe that rabbi was also collaborating. Still no idea what`s "antisemitic" about telling such storyies.

[hminkema]

I read the translation in the book 'Shoah'. It is absolutely not obvious that these people are antisemites, even though Lanzmann, and you in his slipstream, attempts to present them that way. Let alone that they would be in any way responsible for the fate of Jews in Poland 1939-1945. They welcome Srebnik back, describe their memories of how cruel the Germans treated the Jews of Chelmno, and only when asked explicitly does one of them refer to the 'blood curse' - but distances himself from it.