I Empathize With School Shooters

[SirChocolateHobo]

I'm so glad to hear somebody else share this view as well. Thanks for posting this along with some of your other videos.

[fnatic9]

I think its a problem with western society. Its so backwards and degenerate that when someone rejects it, if they dont have anything good to go to, they can fall into all kinds of extremist beliefs. Especially if those beliefs are underlined by evolution and natural selection thinking, then they are actually cleansing society of perverts gays minorities etc.

[noodles41]

I enjoyed this video. I can see what you had to say had been well thought out, and was expressed with an open-mind. I think it would come across as more personal to the viewer if you would make eye contact occasionally, rather than generally just reading from your notes or w/e (but I can appreciate the obvious differences of chatting with a camera instead of a person). Thanks for the video.

[john2earth]

I was bullied in the worst ways imaginable for absolutely no justifiable reason throughout my entire life. I forever fantasized about killing those who victimized me on a daily basis but didn't. Instead, I quit school, got my GED, and withdrew from society. I now suffer with mental illnesses from the abuse. It affects every part of my life and has scarred me forever. I sympathize with school shooters because it makes me sad to see how far the abuse pushes others.

[buddhabassist]

Smart man.

[weedwisdompain]

think about it, all these people who where killed, they where mostly all owners of perfect lives, all having fun and enjoying themselves evryday, and the guy who shot them spent his life suffering and being judged by evrybody...think about it, whos immoral ???

[weedwisdompain]

Its not immoral to rape and murder, these people are not sick, they are desperate and sick of what life has did to them, if you cant feel sorry for them, it means that you are sick in the head and you are immoral...

[zieben64]

@weedwisdompain were u high when you wrote this shit

[weedwisdompain]

And i could also murder the people who kept laffing at me and spitting on me, NOT BECAUSE IM IMMORAL AND SICK AND DOSENT HAVE A HEART, because the whole world sorta raped me in the ass all my life by giving a billion problems and they made me evil and they gave me the fantasies of hurting them with their own selfish behaviors, dont blame me for the evil that YOu did to me, dont blame school shooters for being a victims of a sick int he head society...

[weedwisdompain]

Hey eepidoodle, you cant make this sorta judgment, me too in my entire life i felt sorry for womens whos been raped, i remember telling my mother i would nevr hurt a women, but after all these years of being laffed at by womens, i could hurt them and feel no pain simply because they deserve what i would do to them, except, im an inteligent person whos not likely to get controlled by his emotions, but other people are not that smart and get controlled by their feelings...

[rmsolympic1]

Frankly, I would not destroy the wall-for my self-esteem will never depend on the notions of others in general-and I would not destroy my various tools of self-defense; in fact, I would become more a mster of them. What I would do, however, is walk out form behind that wall and abide in the world. Given that certain cruleties exist in the world, I would know that I have a way of handily handling any of hte foolishness that arises when and as needed, but I would otherwise live my life happily.

[zadeh79]

I think in all fairness one should uphold a merger of the two views. On one hand, chronic psychological torture, allows for a predicament where killings become a possibility. On the other hand, not everyone sharing a similar permutation of circumstances, would actually commit a violent action. Because it is quite difficult, if not impossible, to predict individual actions under hypothetical circumstances, I don't think it's quite fair that people cast judgements on others.

[Cailwyn]

Listen to "Monsters Get Slain" by Ghost Mice. watch?v=wSdPsHO_rNY

[woodyfly]

If every parent could fulfill their basic duty of giving their children love and affection, there would be so many less fucked up people in the world. I am sure of that.

[eepidoodle]

my parents were crap, i was bullied at home and at school. i never ever thought about killing my classmates. because i had self control. i empethize to a degree with these people but there are other ways around it. they obviously have serious psycological problems and should have gotten/sought help from a doctor or even just phoned a helpline to talk and get advice.

[XOmniverse]

@eepidoodle What do you mean by self control, and why didn't they have it?

[eepidoodle]

@XOmniverse by controlling my actions. all that sort of retaliation does is ruin your own life. bullying is awful and destroys so much of you but the one thing you can control is your own actions. why didnt they have it? i dunno, never spoken to a mass murderer before

[XOmniverse]

@eepidoodle Control independent of causality?

[weedwisdompain]

@XOmniverse I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT YOU SUFFERD ENOUGH IN YOUR LIFE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE SUCH A JUGDMENT, people are evil because society forces them to be evil, society is crazy, society dosent know what it wants, society is full of bullies who rejetc people who better than them, mostly more inteligent, but now pretty people are picked on to for being pretty, most people are evil and full of jalousy, and if school shooters kill these people, its because they sorta deserve to die

[420captain]

@weedwisdompain I understand where you're coming from,But.If everyone had the outlook you seem to have,or if a person teaches there kids what you think,we would have a world of dark minded murderers.Suffering happens like snow falls on the earth.Most people, in fact i think all people suffer at some time or another.It's just terrible when a person suffers for long periods of time.Life is brutal,but it is brutal for "most"all people,and we try and be good people and get through it.Life can b good

[dubified89]

@XOmniverse Yes

[Gettinghitonattheban]

Most of those bullies end up becoming police officers. Which is why I feel the anti-bulling laws are ironic and rather pointless.

[CosmicDestroyer99]

I agree 110%

[skater3shefik]

hitler was a fucked up evil guy =P

[Stizou777]

I'm tired of people saying bullying is always the cause of this, not always!

Columbine, Eric and Dylan were not bullied anymore than others. Columbine is a big topic though, and it all depends on the perspective, but bullying was not the main cause.

[wsxcvb23]

@Stizou777

Bullying is not always the ONLY cause, but it certainly contributes to such incidents.

Not bullied more than others? Oh, then it's ok. As long as it's not more than others... How can anyone know that but the victims themselves? Besides, some are simply more sensitive than others, through no fault of their own. Bullying is never ok, whether a lot or a little, between shoolchildren or adults.

[Stizou777]

@wsxcvb23 We all go thorugh at least a bit of bullying, I believe its healthy, makes us stronger and more aware of certain types of people. Large amounts of bullying is ofc not a good thing.

The killers wrote journals, made video recordings, and there friends of them have spoken about this.

It was a problem at columbine, but it was not the main cause, thats what people gotta understand.

[wsxcvb23]

I grant your point. Yet I for one do not think bullying is healthy in small amounts, only because it's common and (yes) can strengthen you. Small amounts of viruses strengthen your immune system, but that's only good because there are viruses in the first place. The immune system costs energy, just like anti-virus programs cost processing power and slow down your computer. The same with bullying. We have no spare capacities for bullying and building emotional defences with today's problems.

[Stizou777]

@wsxcvb23 In theory, yes, but you have to be realistic.

We don't live in a world of love and peace, we live in a world of hate and war. Human nature includes being selfish, we want good things to happen to us, but that tends to not always be the case.

There are a lot of idiots out there who will treat you like s**t, and you'll meet those thorughout your entire life, so you might as well learn how to deal with them at a young age. If a little bullying gets you down then your a weakling :/

[Klespyrio]

I think he is just saying, even though, yes, it certainly does happen in the real world. It shouldn't. It is a problem, and will probably never be fixed. But it just should not be there anyway.

[dexarouskies]

The shooters obviously had trouble empathizing with other innocent people, and feeling that other people also have problems just like them.

[UnschoolingEagle]

This is a reason I want to be a teacher. I hope to help at least one class of kids a year. I really think the educational system is absolute garbage. I want the kids to see that some people do care about how they feel about school and care about their own rights. My kids definitely will not be going to any school. Radical Unschooling here lol.

[clonepsi]

Very well said. I can relate to building a psychological wall and the difficulty of tearing it down.

[NoMorFear]

OR, if you choose not to retaliate out of choice or fear of punishment from the school or a confrontation, then you are left with essentially a self-built psychological wall, as XO said.

This wall can potentially devastate you personally and socially. You are rendered dysfunctional and alone in your own world behind that wall.

And when that wall breaks, that's when primitive bully fucks get a bullet in their head.

[NoMorFear]

cont

The teacher is often too incompetent/unconscious to even know what's going on between students in the class and it shouldn't have to be on the student to address the situation mid-class, but it often is or you just take it.

And then if you do decide to handle it in class, which you shouldn't have to, you will undoubtedly create a scene and end up being suspended/expelled for self-defense, in which case you're fucked even more,same thing outside class.

People have 0 understanding.

[NoMorFear]

Good video.

Another problem with bullying in schools is the lack of understanding and leeway of punishment for self-defense if the victim resorts to self-defense or retalitation.

Say if you're getting bullied by multiple kids in the middle of class and the fat ass teacher is sitting at the desk seeing nothing, and you decide to get up and go settle it right there and take someone out, chances are GOOD that you will be suspended, maybe even expelled.

continued

[fuckamerica109]

i totally agree with you man, ive had thoughts about going to school and killing people because of bullying, and a few days ago my friend said that he wants to do it too because everyone always makes fun of him cuz he listens to metal and shit. its nice to see someone who actually understands us.

[paultoronto42]

I think the biggest problem with Objectivism is it's complete rejection of psychological determinism and yet the argument presented in this video depends on psychological determinism.

[XOmniverse]

I don't claim to be an Objectivist.

[paultoronto42]

Sorry XOmniverse, I didn't read your profile carefully. My mistake. I really enjoy your videos.

[zadeh79]

@paultoronto42  But even those with free will, usually decide to take an umbrella with them, when it's raining outside.

[TauBroadside]

Great video if more people would see the true problem school shootings would and could be avoided. Yet pschiatrist are still misdiagnosing and not presenting real solutions to the issue.

[XOmniverse]

I don't even know what your point is. If your point is that a duty exists to help others, you definitely haven't demonstrated the fact yet.

[XOmniverse]

When I said it "depends on the personal cost involved" I meant that someone is not cruel for not donating substantial amounts of time and energy toward helping poor children in third world countries.

What's cruel are these bandaid fixes instead of addressing the core issue. The cultures over there are primitive and naturally lead to these kind of consequences.

The truth is, if those countries want less poverty, they need to Westernize.

[XOmniverse]

"It would be very cruel allowing people to needlessly suffer and die."

I think that depends on the personal cost involved.

[XOmniverse]

It sounds like you're saying its in our self-interest to help others? If that's your point, I don't think I'd disagree.

[XOmniverse]

What aspect of the natural world and the way things are implies that I have an inherent "responsibility for others"?

[Pentazoid111]

I don't think people in our society do enough to try to sit down and understand why people will instigate such tragedies like mass school shootings. Otherswise , school shootings would take place less often than they do now, if we understand the psychology of the school shooter. We are soo quick to demonize people or ready to put them in the electric chair if they commit some type of murder instead of examining such people psychologically.then I think their would be a lot less of these events.

[WeAreDevo456]

I concur with XOmniverse on this one: adolescence can be NO fun at all.

[Nofaris]

I like you.

[DevilWomanCake]

well, at least your honest with your opinion, but I think this video is somewhat hypocritical when you compare it to the "fuck murderers" one you did a while back. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[XOmniverse]

Opinion can change over time. No hypocrisy in that.

[DevilWomanCake]

I guess so. does that mean you take back some things that were said in "fuck murderers"? or do you still hold the beliefs from that video to some degree?

[XOmniverse]

I'd have to rewatch it, but its possible that I would take some of it back.

[TruthDevours]

Do you empathize with violent criminals from low-income households?

[ThePintsizeslasher]

I used to empathize, but most of the shooters were, simply put, dicks. Violence begets violence, but it does not justify.

The Columbine shooters, were simply assholes:

h ttp ://ww w[dot] usatoday[dot] com/news/nation/2009-04-13-col­umbine-myths_N.htm?

[TruthHidden]

I also know how they feel. It is amazing how much damage pain and isolation can cause. The psychological roots of an issue are often avoided, not addressing the causes. I was a total loner, and that wall was what got me through. I have been working on trust issues for the past 3 years.

[daPawlak]

there is the reason thet they shoot in their schools, great that you mentioned it, my high school experience was realtively good so till now I had no idea why. I guess I never thought it throught, cos now it seems quite obvious, thank you for new perspective.

[Kevinge3]

Also people are unaware of what the environment is really like in a High School Setting. Kids are getting picked on non-stopped by assholes who constantly degrade their character and put them down. Teachers don't respect students or treat them seriously. Some schools run like a Totalitarian state.

[Kevinge3]

I agree, while killing others is a despicable act we sometimes are unaware of the real situation. When you look at the Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Kelibold, we don't necessarily take into consideration as to why they committed the atrocious acts. What caused them to act this way. We never learn of the entire story. That's why when it comes to very disturbed people who are tormented throughout High school often becoming loners we should help them not SHUN them from everyone else.

[modelmark]

It is one of these things that is deterministic. If you beat a dog, it will bite you, same here. If you pound a kid to mush during growing up, it will become a monster. I still think it is evil though, because I would define that as the initiation of force, irrespective of avoid ability. Like a heavy object falling on your toe, it is bad (for you), even though it could not have fallen in any other trajectory.

Denial of determinism renders all hope of change impossible

[Rose0883]

I could not agree more with what you said in this video. Weird almost, like the words you said came straight out of my mouth. Great thoughts and video, especially with the emphasis on empathy, which I think is the most important thing and what will eventually lead to less and less of these tragedies.

[greenghost2008]

probably the most sensational video title you have ever done.

[Mastikator]

You're such a bleeding heart XOmniverse. And I agree with everything you said.

[retrolives]

I shall do my very best, work as hard as I can and even move country so that my children will not have to experience the horrors of institutional education. As things go I did pretty well there, but it was still as gruesome an experience as one can imagine. Read books by John Taylor Gatto, Murray Rothbard "Education: Free and Compulsory" and Albert Jay Nock "The Theory of Education in the United States" to learn more. For free at the Mises Institute.

[Kbiomech]

This really resonates with me. I came close, on more than one occasion. I had weapons, and I was CONSTANTLY tormented by the popular kids. People who actually want to learn something are clearly and blatantly unwelcome in state run schools. Bullying isn't just present, it's OPENLY condoned by the staff.

I graduated early via the CHSPE and the GED. Had I not done so, I very well might have made some headlines. As it was, I got in countless fights. I didn't start them. But I finished them harsh.

[sharperguy]

School really sucks. It wasn't so bad in the last couple of years (when people had been given the choice to leave) but the rest or the time the general attitudes of "popular" people and the issues you mention here were almost unbearable at times.

[HellWithPoverty]

Many people can identify with their feelings of hopelessness and sense of alienation and isolation. I do not think that is controversial.

[IndividualAutonomy]

I did that same thing in high school, not with objectivism.

[fede2]

i essentially agree. i went through similar experiences in high school. i felt absolutly stifled and my only defense mechanism was isolation and emotional stoicism. school was hell for me. i hated everyone and everything about it. i only had two friends. the only difference is that i went to a private catholic school, not a public school.

[Rorshak1313]

This morning I was writing a monologue about all the bullshit that kids get fed and I brought up some of the same points you did here.

[china416]

I agree that a coercive system is deplorable, but to an extent, you have the capacity to choose what to do in face of coercion.

Yea it sucks, but to say that because you were abused, you chose to retaliate with force on other innocent people is a little slippery...

Its a little excessive to say person A was mentally abused for so many years, thus it is reasonable to sympathize with person A that their choice of outlet was to kill others.

[tumbleweedjoe]

Public school is brutal. It is a mindless, sterile setting. Tyranny is unpunished the administration is controlling and apathetic. I work at a private school. We have our regular problems, but nothing like this because we care about the students.

[ithinkronpaulissmart]

Well said.... dangerous topic.

[Cailwyn]

Spot on.

For myself, I did horribly in school. I was always preoccupied with hiding from, or defending myself against, both the students and faculty.

My "crutch" was my life outside of school where I had fun and friends. At the end of the eleventh grade I came to the conclusion that to subject myself to that environment any longer would be insane, so I dropped out.

Haven't really looked back since, accept to perhaps finnishing my 'education' for a higher pay grade.

[kvan1917]

I agree completely.

[FatGermanBastard]

@Xomniverse:

Morality is not a wall to protect you. Morality is the very tool they are using to screw you up. Tax laws, those rules at school fucking you up and expecting you to sit down and swallow it making you society's bitch and paying for other people's children....all of that crap would not work if they had not invented morality to force their bullshit interests on you and look just alright doing it. Those are the walls that protect you ? No man... it's the pain in my ass !

[XOmniverse]

FatGermanBastard: I don't think a morality grounded in achieving personal happiness can be used in the way you describe.

In other words, its a very SPECIFIC morality that is the tool used to fuck people up. You haven't identified a problem with morality as a concept (and indeed, its impossible to condemn people for fucking people up without having some sense of morality.)

[FatGermanBastard]

@Xomniverse:

The only thing that is objective about your morality is that certain things make you happy. That's an objective scientific fact about you but that does not make your desires themselves objective. The only thing that is objective about them is that it is a scientific fact that you have them.

From that perspective the preferences of someone making fun of you at school are just as objective (it is a scientific fact that terrorizing you makes them happy).

[dogbonez]

Who are you to say the kids got what they deserved, faggot?

[TornIntoEnthrallment]

That is not by any stretch of the imagination what I said. You are a fool.

[TornIntoEnthrallment]

Even though I blame the shooter for what they did, I think society is also to blame. Any time there is a shooting, that signifies that there is in fact something wrong with society, not the individual exclusively.

[TornIntoEnthrallment]

Literally every time I have ever had a conversation with people on a public shooting, they ALWAYS dismiss the sufferings of the shooter and look for a reason to label him a coward. They act as if the shooter did not even suffer. This is a really bad outlook at the problem at hand. We need to resolve the problem at hand. We have to first of all acknowledge what causes the shooters to suffer and resolve/prevent it in the future.

I do not hate society, but society has a lot of huge flaws.

[TornIntoEnthrallment]

I am a senior in a public high school. I have been scolded pretty badly by teachers in the past. The teachers at my school observe us attentively and TRY TO FIND something wrong with us rather than simply notice a problem. They get a joy out of having this power. It is an ego trip just like it is for cops.

[ModelAnarchist]

My "objectivism" was die hard conservatism and obsessive warmongering militant nationalism.

Although, I have heard that the "lead" in the columbine shootings was not bullied at school

[Shezmu]

Ouch. As someone who used to be a die hard homophobic, anti-fornication, pro-life christian piece of shit, I really feel for ya.

[HymerSchmidt]

My objectivism: pot and math.

[drew335533]

Xomniverse,

Not to be a jerk to you or anything,

but I thought your analogy at 4:20 was a good analogy, but wrong all together.

People abuse animals/humans all of the time and get mad when they react violently. This is caused when the other person believes they have some sort of entitelment of power over another being, so therefore they get mad when their power is not respected. Great video though, I'm going to respond to it.

[jagmarz]

The moral here is that if we set standards for people to meet, we either have to set the standards low, so everybody meets them, HELP those who don't meet the standards, or expect them to operate outside of social norms. It's that simple.

Option 3 is clearly bad, option 1 is pure anarchy (also bad), so that leaves option 2.

There are no great options.

[jagmarz]

I think there's a certain rampant illusion in this country that everyone's a normal church-goin', football-watchin', cheerleadin' patriot, and there's a strong disinclination to even notice people outside that demographic.

From out here, there's a certain amount of futile admiration for those folks, which eventually turns, via frustration, to a certain form of hatred.

Monsters aren't born, they're MADE.

Damn, I'm scaring myself.

[tiecuando]

Some are born, but I agree with you sort of, MANY are made.

[Rose0883]

I don't think that's an accurate statement at all- that is basically stating that when a baby comes out of the womb, they are inherently evil based on their biological makeup, which is not true. It is the argument from Christianity that children are born evil and must be corrected, which is innacurate.

Everyone is born with certain dispositions, you might go far enough to say, but I think sumbitting that a person is born with an inherent evil disposition is exaggerating the facts.

[tiecuando]

Well, I've seen that show "Dexter", and I think even if someone was born messed up, they could use it for good in theory. I'm not a hard determinist.

[RowanFortuneWood]

I agree, these people do have free-will, but to ignore the fact that they are abused, damaged and neglected by a sickeningly flawed system is not only wrong but immoral. I also agree that they are not evil people; evil does not really have definite existence, it is more a lack of moral knowledge or an imbalance of character.

[XOmniverse]

Rowan: I really like your last statement there.

[Rose0883]

I second that.

[danielsondanielson]

XOmniverse, it's not quite easy to me to empathise with you here, when you appreciate Rowan's statement about some "free will" and with an effectively Augustinian appraisal of evil as a lack of something. In my view, such sympathies of yours are in conflict with your self-declared atheism and determinism. Already Voltaire justly derided the idea of "free will". How can a will be free? Wouldn't a "free will" be something like "icy ice" or "wet water"?

[RowanFortuneWood]

Danielson, I cannot speak for XOmniverse, but in my own defence I see nothing wrong with an atheist appropriating the ideas of a Christian philosopher in the same way as I see nothing wrong with a liberal like Russell drawing on the work of a conservative anti-Semite logician like Frege. Atheism is simply disbelief in the existence of a God or Gods and ideas are adaptable. And no, free-will is not a tautology.

[danielsondanielson]

Rowan, your first two sentences of your comment to me (those about Russell, Frege and atheism) are accepted. Anyway, what do you mean by the free will not being a tautology (or, as I would say, rather a pleonasm)? The extent of your freedom is the absence of obstacles to act in accordance with your will. But what is the freedom of your will? Do you really believe in something, that is not determined by its physical environment, and yet able to physically influence that environment?

[RowanFortuneWood]

First, thank-you, many are not so polite online. In answer, yes; each human self-awareness, which comes about from a combination of physical and social environment, is an 'independent point of departure' to borrow a term from the philosopher Lucien Goldmann which I first encountered in the writings of Raymond Tallis; an excellent Humanist defender of free-will. Furthermore, I believe that Compatibilism, as proposed by the likes of Hume and Voltaire, allows only for pseudo-freedom.

[danielsondanielson]

If I was a free will defender, I would probably use a lot of foreign words, quote some philosophical cult gurus and apply some unclear concepts. And if my opponents didn't understand me, I would tell them that they must still educate a lot. You have my almost complete understanding. But isn't your "combination of physical and social environment" something like a combination of fruit and apples?

[RowanFortuneWood]

If you do not understand me ask me for clarification; I will not patronise. And in answer to your question, I do not believe so. At least, I have yet to encounter a physical social environment.

[danielsondanielson]

If you don't want to accept, that humans are only dynamic configurations of fields and particles, such as any other tangible entities we interact with, then you can really believe, that the social environment is something more than only a part or aspect of the physical environment. Sure, believe whatever you want to believe in.

But nowadays you will need a lot of sophistics, I would say, to support any arguments for the social being irreducible to the physical.

[XOmniverse]

His last statement was about the nature of evil, not free will. Free will was his first statement.

Read more carefully :P

[MaikUniversum]

W-O-N-D-E-R-F-U-L, XOmniverse :)

[hellavadeal]

The popular kids are ussually the ones picking on other kids.

People fear those that are odd.

When a popular kid sees that others chear when he picks on the odd one , He will continue doing it. No one want to be the one that correct the popular one.

[lyriclex]

so what do you think about Morgan Scott Peck's definition of evil?

[thepowerofuranus]

I agree with the views expressed in this video.

Yes, your view is controversial. I think you'll find a correlation exists between being controversial and being right, especially when the issue is concerned with people, society, beliefs etc. So take, the Earth is not flat, not the centre of our universe, equality for humans, women, blacks etc, euthanasia, legalisation of drugs...there's no such thing as a 2000 year old Jew zombie ect ect. These were/are controversial views. But they are right.

[tria68]

my comments are all out of order ...lol I hope you understand!

[Rose0883]

I have to say, I think the real root of the problem (even if you are/were a decent mother) is the fact that parents allow their children in these environments to get picked on. By putting your kids in a psychologically, and sometimes physically dangerous place, you enable them to get picked on, and enable them to get treated with indifference.

In the defense of your daughter, I think the best route would have been to protect her, and find an alternative to public school alltogether.

[Rose0883]

I'm not trying to attack you innately, but you have to realize that you allowed continued psychological torment into your daughter's childhood, and basically allowed her to get abused for years on end. I'm not suggesting that you can change the past, but I think it's important to note what kind of responsibilities the parent has in the protection of raising of a happy, healthy, and successful human being.

I don't think one stone should have been left unturned until a solution was found.

[tria68]

I did change her school....

[Rose0883]

Often, the same things happen no matter what school you go to, but if she truly felt like she was protected by the switch in schools and was happy at the new one, then that's wonderful. That said, it is definitely hard for me to imagine a different public school being wholly less violent or toxic than the next. Ultimately, they all function under the same unempathetic and authoritarian doctrine.

[tria68]

yes, I can see how the school officials have no responsibility whatsoever... they are there "watching" but ya, it's my fault for "forcing" her to attend (something that I would go to jail for if I don't comply) ...... blame the victim some more why don't you..... are you a teacher? ....

.....maybe you should look into that as a career brainiac!

...if it weren't for my involvement in her daily life during those times , she would have killed herself (she has told me many times)

[Rose0883]

Wow, way to get defensive.

The school officials have all the responsibility in the world, and they enable the system to be run by being employed there, as you enable your daughter to be treated the way she did by sending her there. In reponse to you getting thrown in jail, there is such a thing as homeschooling or other alternatives to public school such as Montessori schools, which are easy to learn about with a little research.

[Rose0883]

It's also interesting to me that likely the reason she wanted to kill herself is b/c of her school situation anyway, which you allowed her to be in. I mean, it's one thing to admit it and at least say "Yeah, I think I could have looked for more alternatives" instead of getting mad at me for pointing out the obvious, which is that there wasn't much overall protection for her.

Also not sure how I'm blaming the victim when, if anything, I am blaming you. Your daughter is the victim here.

[Rose0883]

I would never be a teacher in public school, though I would do better than all of them combined I think.

Either way, my opinions are what they are and I think I presented them in an appropriate manner. I can also see why it would be easy to get defensive from what I said, but I think these ideas are too important to go unheeded, and the defense of children is too important to pass off responsibilities to teachers or counselors when the parent is the ultimate protector of their child.

[tria68]

wow... you know everything....your so smart Rose... I'm in awe of your fat head ....I mean the grey matter in there must be pushing your eyeballs out!

you really should save the world with all your vast knowledge about shit you've never even lived through!!

humanity is waiting!

[Rose0883]

It is waiting... and honestly, I've been a bit slow to grant my wisdom to the fullest, but you've actually inspired me to speed up the process seeing how so many parents like you are in need of my advice. Thank you.

Anyway, you have resorted to being a bitch to make yourself feel better about this conversation and your daughter's childhood, and though I don't think that re-directing anger is the best form of therapy, I understand it's easier than facing the blame... so be my guest lady.

[tria68]

oh for fucks sake..... you should run for office Rose!

[tria68]

I have always believed that to defeat a problem you must find the source and fix that....

.... I am a mother of four children two of which graduated out of public schools :)

I was involved in their interests which was not football or cheerleader! They were both "theater kids"

...my daughter was picked on RELENTLESSLY 7th through12th grades!

con't

[tria68]

....the teachers saw it and were apathetic towards it! the "office" suggested that SHE see a psychiatrist!! ....even as an adult I felt the need to hit the "counselor" in her stupid face :-)~

....they never helped my daughter and blamed her for the problem.....I feel that the apathy displayed by the teachers were/is the problem (a big part anyway)

con't

[tria68]

we live in Omaha where a boy recently shot some people at the mall (Von Maur) well he attended the same school as my kids and I will tell you that at least two kids a year for the past four years have committed suicide in our district because of getting picked on.... those are the ones I know about ....I'm thinking there are more!

[tria68]

you are right.....my daughter had me thankfully

but the shooter in Omaha was turning 19 and was a foster kid (his parents had already left him) and the foster care system was turning him out on his own....

I felt for him.....i felt his story was not that he was a devil but a victim and the WHOLE story was tragic as hell ..... anyway... good subject!

.....now lets talk about why terrorists want to terrorize USA??? whats the root cause of that??

[Charlesdance]

Nelson Mandela?

[boxant]

Good video.

It took many years to really recover my public school, I was fortunate to have a good family and some close friends. Not everyone is so fortunate.

My "crutch" was drugs, music, sex, sarcasm, and pugilism. At least I've outgrown the sarcasm.

;)

[hurrrrrrrrrrr]

Pugilism! Been years since I last heard that word :D

[AnarchyInYourHead]

Thanx for having the courage to address the root of the problem. Most people get hung up on justice but not on solving problems and trying to figure out how to keep it from happening again. The problem runs deep, in a culture of abuse, just as you described.

[Sarahon06]

Really good video man.

[danielsondanielson]

Well, good or evil, humans are a species of apes in the first place. As apes we are also monkeys, mammals, terrestrial tetra-pods, lobe-finned fish etc etc. That all means that we can cooperate or compete with each other, form various alliances and pecking orders, and also kill each other as individuals or members of various groups. Some kill their classmates and teachers, others kill toddlers in nurseries, still others kill as soldiers some armed enemies. What can one do about it? It's a life.

[GamblerJustice]

"Some kill their classmates and teachers, others kill toddlers in nurseries, still others kill as soldiers some armed enemies. What can one do about it? It's a life."

One can fight against it. Murder is not something that should just be accepted.

[ocelot814]

How do you fight against natural occurrences? It's like making tornados illegal. Doesn't stop it from happening.

[Shezmu]

Question to ocelot: if I attempted to rape one of your loved ones, would you do anything to prevent me from raping one of your loved ones? If so, then I'm not sure how your answer and your previous post are logically consistent. If not, then would your sister happen to be hot?

[ocelot814]

Well I would try to save my love one but their's no grantee I would succeed especially if that person is armed and I am not. Same goes with a tornado. You can compete withe it but chances are it's going to win if your in its path.

[Shezmu]

No offense, but I find your logic inconsistent here. If it is meaningless to stop "natural occurrences" like rape and murder, then it would be silly to try to prevent it, as it would be to try to stop a tornadoes without the aid of the force. So in this example, your actions are contradicting your philosophy, or am I misunderstanding your logic here?

[ocelot814]

I merely asked HOW do you stop natural events from occurring. I never said anything about meaning. Don't construe my words to try to win an argument I'm not even having.

[GamblerJustice]

Something being natural does not necessarily mean that it is something "unchangable" or "unpreventable", nor that it is the only possible alternative. It is not, for example, natural to live in a skyscraper. And in the case of a tornado, a natural event which cannot be prevented, one can still fight it by being prepared. But I don't think shootings are something that can't be stopped, nor do I think they stem from any natural conditions.

[ocelot814]

I look at nature as things that occur. That's it. Things that occur. People who are going to shoot up a school are going to do it regardless. You can do all the precautions you want it will inevitably occur. Unless a utopia is created. Even then that would occur probably.

[GamblerJustice]

Only metaphysical facts can't be (and shouldn't) be fought against. Although if you wish to argue that shootings are a fact of reality that cannot be changed, I'm all ears, I'd be interested to know why you think so.

[GamblerJustice]

Saying that school shooting are "just things that occurs" ignores the fact that things that occur have causes, the cause in this case is a failure of a school system, public schools, and the shooters view of life - which can be combated through a rational philosophy. If you remove the cause, the effect disappears.

[ocelot814]

gamblerjustice I have no time for idealist nonsense. You can't remove the effect. The effect is a constant. The cause is just a variable that will be replaced over and over and over again. Understand?

[GamblerJustice]

You seem to have time for nonsense in general, though. Make a real argument as to why the effect is constant, instead of assuming that other people should know it. Effects only exist so far as causes do, and to claim that the effect (which would not exist without a cause) is a primary which will give birth to new causes is epistemologically criminal.

[ocelot814]

Are you reading anything I've wrote? How is murder not a constant? Many things have been done in the name of curtailing murder. Has it worked? Is murder absent? Prove to me that murder is absent? Good luck with that. That is why it is a constant. Does not matter what the original cause was. The cause is now a variable.

Hunger, fear, hate, boredom, skill, skin, shoes all variables on the constant of murder.

[GamblerJustice]

A1. I don't think you understand the meaning of "constant". The fact that something has always occured does not mean that it will always have to occur. You need more evidence than that to claim that whether or not we remove the cause, people will keep on killing. You would have to prove that there is something innate in man that causes him to kill, no matter how the environment changes.

[GamblerJustice]

A2. Secondly, I do not think murder is absent, but I do think it can be severely reduced, if not altogether eradicated. By, as I have said already, spreading a rational philosophy. If you prove to people that it's not in their self-interest to kill it will have an effect. Perhaps all people won't be convinced and perhaps not immediatly, but it would certainly work.

[ocelot814]

Rational philosophy? What rational philosophy?.

[GamblerJustice]

Are you asking what a rational philosophy is or do you want me to give you an example? Any such philosophy would suffice, the only ones I know of are Objectivism and Aristotelianism - and the former could be called an improvement of the latter.

[ocelot814]

Objectivism and Aristotelianism? You can't be serious.

[GamblerJustice]

I am serious. Why wouldn't I be?

[ocelot814]

Objectivism? And who decides what is objective? Our subjective reasoning. Objectively speaking their would be less gun crimes if we removed human hands right? Stupid philosophy.

[GamblerJustice]

A1.

"Objectivism? And who decides what is objective?"

Not who, what. Something is objective if it is grounded in reality. To say that our subjective reasoning decides what is objective is a contradiction. As is your claim that objectivity doesn't exist, are you saying that's an objective claim?

Objectively speaking there would be less crimes if our culture was of such degree that most men accepted reason as a primary and knew why crime is wrong. Cutting off people's hands would work too,

[GamblerJustice]

A2.

but that would cause a whole lot of other problems.

Do you have any idea what Objectivism is? You're giving me no reason to think that you have.

[GamblerJustice]

People who are going to shoot up a school are going to do it regardless, you're right about that (since saying "people who are going to shoot up a school" affirms that they are going to do it). But you can prevent them from becoming those kinds of people in the first place.

[ocelot814]

How hugs and kisses? Then people will look at hug and kisses and blame that for harsh realities. Again the effect will remain and the variable will change.

[GamblerJustice]

You don't fight a tornado by making it illegal, you do it by learning to predict when one is going to occur, and by knowing what to do in case a tornado occurs.

[Shezmu]

@ocelot - while I am confused as to how I've misinterpreted your words, I do wish to note that it isn't my intent to use intellectual dishonesty to "win" something. I prefer to believe that we weren't having an "argument", but rather that we were merely discussing ideals. Not having a contest to see who can shout the loudest.

[Shezmu]

That said, I got the impression that you were making a statement of the futility of defending oneself from or changing the immoral, especially in your second post, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[trumasamune]

Great video.

[kimlea69]

well said and very needfull....kim