BACH Toca, Adagio & Fugue in C - II recital 11/11/07

[ccoraxfan]

I believe in offerings, I do not believe in tithing. I think if the instrumentalist does a worthy job, he or she should be payed a worthy wage. Unfortunately most churches today do not pay their workers properly (if at all!) and most teach tithing by law, rather than giving offerings by free will, which brings a blessing and which people are more likely to want to do.

[musicLessons2]

reasonably spoken, but perhaps hiding something in-between the lines. A possible extension of this logic seems to indicate you'd also believe in abortion or same-sx mrriage, tho I'm not sure.  (Am I right?). Hope u liked the piece anyway.

[ccoraxfan]

I believe abortion is murder and homosexuality is perversion. I'm not sure how you came to bring that up though.

[musicLessons2]

That settles that, mate. However, a brief perusal of your site comments suggests that you enjoy rattling others with biblical contention, reject age-old "rules", and inject your own beliefs over what is actually said in scripture (as u seem to do above). Seems scripture requires us to "believe in" tithing...voluntarily, or else be excluded from the worship tent. One wonders what else you reject. Just a wild guess...fraternally yours.

[ccoraxfan]

If you believe that the law of tithing still applies today, then you must also believe the rest of the law of Moses still applies. Have you followed the rest of the laws? If you offend in one point, you are a debtor to do the whole law. Personally, I prefer to rely on the blood of Jesus Christ to remove my guilt before God, because I'm not very good at following the law.

[musicLessons2]

OK so your admitting you reject the Decalogue, merely because most of mankind can't seem to follow it 100% of the time, myself included. Pehaps that's even more Liberal than abortionists. But God doesn't change his Laws. He only enlightens It, and changes Us, if we remain open to his forgiveness, and his teachings about atonement. To reject the Decalogue, as if it doesn't "apply today", is indeed a serious offense, because you are in effect placing yourself "above His law".

[ccoraxfan]

I don't reject the Decalogue. I believe the principles which the law was built upon still apply--for instance, it's never okay to murder or steal, you must honor your parents and the God who made you, God made the Sabbath as a day of rest for man so he would not exhaust himself and so he would remember his Creator, etc. The 10 commandments are principles of right and wrong which are wrong to violate, and the rest of the laws are built on the 10 but do not hold the weight of law today.

[musicLessons2]

pls re-post ...i accidentally hit the remove link that u2b unwisely places right below the reply link w/o a confirm. It's odd your response seems inconsistent...Correct--all else reduces to Decalogue. More weight if a sin violates more than one Decalogue item at once....And still that does not relieve our obligation to atone (Christ said make peace)...u seem to have "hit and run" with several others on ur site...based on "Christ's assurance" u can get away w injuries to brethren, correct?

[ccoraxfan]

I don't have a copy of what I posted, so it's gone, sorry.

I do not believe that I can "get away" with anything. If I do wrong, I am convicted of it and must repent. However, I don't know exactly what it is you are referring to, so I can't comment on it. I don't like to cause injury to anybody, especially my brethren in Christ.

[musicLessons2]

I referr'd to that good person you offended on the Jig. His is a sublime interpretation, and his biblical insights are authentic, yet you quite clearly caused injury to him, and "caused him to sin in anger" (sin causes others to sin). You don't just get away scott free for that, misquoting the bible, then calling jews etc. agents of Satan. I think you know it, but are merely too prideful to make amends. Christ requires atonement with the Persons, or no benefits recieved.

[ccoraxfan]

If you are referring to the man who takes exception to my interpretation of "intellectual property rights", then I'm sorry it offends you and him, but we simply have a differing opinion. I attempted to have an intelligent discussion with him over it, but could not gain anything, so I gave up. And where did you get the idea that I call Jews agents of Satan? I'm not anti-Semitic, I love the Jewish people as God's own chosen people.

[musicLessons2]

Again, this contradicts what you actually wrote, all rabbi's and papists slaves of satan. That seems hardly the way to promote intelligent nor fair discussion. Why were you surprised he got angry with you--you clearly caused it, and refused to make amends, nor admit your mistakes.

[ccoraxfan]

I do not know why he got angry with me, nor could I have an honest discussion with him to make amends. I do believe that Judaism is on the wrong track, being it does not follow the Scriptures, and the same with Roman Catholicism. Those who do not follow the Scriptures are wrong, and I cannot follow them nor have fellowship with them, according to the Scriptures. (2 John 1:9-11) While I do not follow those who teach false doctrine, this does not mean I hate them or their people.

[musicLessons2]

Just apologize to the guy. Internal Hate comes out in all forms. He raised some valid points about you (pride, distortion of scripture, casual attitude towards decalogue and stealing, etc.), which you confirmed in writing, and then avoided the issues. What if he lost all his livelihood to piracy? So you "rub it in" by trying to evade Scripture about stealing? Buddy, you've injured this good man, and should not evade the good Christian responsibility of apologizing. You both have talents.

[ccoraxfan]

I'm afraid we're not gaining anything in this discussion.

I cannot apologize for something I did not do. Matthew 18 deals with a brother who asks forgiveness from you. This man has not asked for forgiveness from me, else I would freely give it.

I believed in Christ many years ago. My belief has not changed, I trust him only for my salvation, and the Bible offers assurance that "...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37) I was saved when I believed, and I cannot be lost.

[musicLessons2]

You're lost already, apparently

[musicLessons2]

Matthew 18 deals with Demanding restitution against a brother who damaged him, NOT as you say. Why do you keep reversing what Scripture actually says? It seems the other guy was precisely right...so why do u keep insisting you're not fibbing scripture left and right? It's all you, meine freunde. Others do not apparently exist in your world. Just "you and Christ".

[ccoraxfan]

Read Mt. 18:21-35. It starts with Peter asking the Lord, "how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him?" and it ends with "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." I quote myself: «Matthew 18 deals with a brother who asks forgiveness from you.» When did I say anything to contradict this?

[musicLessons2]

Mt 18:15-18 "If your brother sins against you...if he refuses to listen...treat him as a tax collector..." (exclude from the Christian community & from Christ). "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven"...i.e. God listens to those who've been injured. You've been accused of fibbing scripture, and inciting discord / hate, and didn't listen. Anyone can verify Scripture against your quotes, and find profound mis-matches. Thus ur not really "believing". Seriously, mate.

[ccoraxfan]

I see. You're saying that I'm in the position of the one who has wronged a brother and refuses to make it right. Unfortunately, mere accusations are not enough, there must be some evidence of a wrong having been committed. The first step is to talk it over with your brother who has wronged you. He has not done so--his communications to me have been full of accusations and cursing and bitterness, and he has refused to hear anything I have said in my defense. And what of the other steps?

[musicLessons2]

The evidence is your own writing and actions. You yourself (and anyone else reading) can verify the Mt 16:18, Decalogue, and other Scritpure you have consitently denied, mis-quoted, down-played, and side-stepped. There's no getting around this. Why treat Scripture so un-seriously as you do in public? He has called the public as Witness, and several affirmed already against you. You can't keep falsehood forever (except in hell).

[ccoraxfan]

You refuse to see what I actually wrote. You continue to make false accusations against me. If I continue to argue with you, what good will it do? You will never admit that I did no wrong, and I cannot admit things I have not done.

[musicLessons2]

To start with, saying a good person has a "bad attitude" merely for quoting authentic scripture from Nehemiah (on mandatory pay for God's worship-house musicians), is tantamount to "denying" or "taking down" Scripture itself, saying "God's word isn't relevant today". That is typical modernist pattern (moral relativity), which consistently denies or waters down other key scripture as well, as you did the Decalogue. i.e. denying God and Christ--deeply insulting to people and Him--(false witness)

[musicLessons2]

The grievances raised against you were based on your own testimony: you said you don't "believe in" tithing (misquoting Paul about "giving freely"), and that decalogue doesn't apply today (in order to "water down" scripture to a liberal modernist outlook free to pirate anything merely because Christ died for our sins). God Himself would be deeply offended at such intransigence. Paul's "give freely" means don't tithe begrudgingly, but WILLINGLY. God hates false teachers, it denies Him.

[musicLessons2]

Perhaps most offending to God, and to people, is how you arrogantly told Christ how to run his Church: you denied that Christ got many other living humans involved in atonement / restitution (holding sinners bound on earth and heaven), by claiming you can get away with stealing, false witness, etc. merely from Christ's death on the cross. That directly denies that Christ instituted the entire Community with rights in Mt 18:18. It's not "you and Christ alone". "Others" rights, you attacked.

[musicLessons2]

Like an atheist, you've mocked good people who merely quoted authentic Scripture. What you preached in return was a doctrine of "no accountability to others" (sin as much as u want cuz Christ died), when Scripture itself states you must make amends with others (Mt 18), if you are to be a true believer. By evading accountability, you've treated Scripture with cynicism, and insulted those "little ones" who defended it. If you truly believe, then you make amends, not mockery of good Christians.

[ccoraxfan]

"Like an atheist"

Okay, I see I'm getting nowhere and only wasting my time. You're arguing against someone else in your head, not against me. Sorry we couldn't have a real discussion over actual issues. I wish you the best.

[musicLessons2]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Like them, you condemned 2 major religions, which do sin greatly, as if your denomination (?) were without sin or equal susceptibility to satan. Then you evade the issues to get off scott-free because you know you can't find fault in these scriptural citations, and you simply don't care about making peace with anyone you've injured. That's weak, brotha'.

[musicLessons2]

Good sir, what is a "real discussion" over "actual issues"? Whatever "you" decide? Why then, do you continually side-step and skirt the "actual" issues raised against you: that you distort both the letter and the spirit of scripture, in order to "get away" with injuring others? (stealing, false witness, envy, false gods / verse, etc.)? It seems your pattern is: evade, and "cover-up". side-track from the real issues at hand.

[musicLessons2]

For instance, the Kepa/kepa (Cephas) = Peter/rock used interchangeably in the original Aramaic bible, exposed your misquote of Scripture in order to "water down" the fact that Christ delegated involvement in reconciliation processes, to chosen humans, which you denied, in order to "get away" with things. It's an extreme liberal "doctrine of no accountability" which you preach, merely so you can give yourself free rein to injure others without limit.

[musicLessons2]

This is Mt 18:15-18 ("When your brother sins against you, speak to him first"), which you are violating: I've raised your specific sins to you in person, and you are not listening (by evading the specific points raised). One does not escape condemnation from God, by slithering away from one's responsibility to others who were injured. Christ was quite clear on that.

[musicLessons2]

Fellow organist, are you afraid of truth? Then why side step the main issues: your rejecting of scripture (Neh, 10 cmdmts, Mt 18 etc. indicating inner dis-belief), and your approval of piracy & general un-accountability to anyone for sins (outward action revealing beliefs not compat. w God)?

[musicLessons2]

It's clear the guy has not refused to hear anything. It is "you" who have closed your ears to him, even though he was precise, and scripturally accurate about exactly what you were mis-quoting. And by not-listening, you have clearly injured him more by adding insult to injury, and then like "hit and run vandals", running away to escape restitution. Recall, the Lord offers Salvation, but not to those who themselves choose not to follow Him, as you're doing by avoiding restitution.

[ccoraxfan]

I have not run away at all, I'm still here, arguing with you am I not? Though I'm about to stop that too, since it is doing no good, and I have to go about other business besides answering YouTube. I'm sorry I can't make you happy.

[musicLessons2]

Actions speak louder than words. By evading, you apparently do not give any care about others. The Lord requires an honest effort at restitution from each accused in order to "believe in" Him (and thus be saved). Yet you toss that aside with the same nonchalance as a murderer who just disposed of his next victim. Christ does not save those with no remorse. (recall Judas). Judas as apostle could quote /misquote Scripture too--that didn't save him.

[musicLessons2]

Also, your mis-representation about "Christ being the rock" vs. what Christ actually SAID. How unfair of you to mungle up Scripture, to "deny Christ" by denying that He Himself pronounced Peter as His rock upon which he'll build His church. And then use that to label our jews and catholic brethren satanists. Clearly, the Lord would cast you out for putting false words into His mouth, that anyone can look up and verify. Mt 16:18. You aught to admit ur careless mis-quotes, and make amends.

[ccoraxfan]

Jesus said: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church". Jesus did not say "Upon thee will I build my church", he said "Upon this rock" and Christ is the Rock. Peter himself calls him the "chief cornerstone" in I Peter 2, and also calls us all "lively stones". Jesus used Peter's name which meant a small stone, but he used the word for a large rock to refer to the foundation of the Church. We are all small stones, but Christ is the Rock.

[musicLessons2]

The Latin / Greek originals say "Thou art Cephas (Peter) / Petras". Any language scholar will readily verify, Petras means Rock, and it has the same sense as the other word for "rock" which followed thereafter. Perhaps the problem is that some of you put too much faith in mis-translated English, which fails to capture fullness of the authentic Original. Christ is the Founder clearly, but he did not belittle Peter-as-cornerstone-rock, nor use it to call jews/catholics satanists as you did.

[ccoraxfan]

The Greek original says:

κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς

[ccoraxfan]

The words are Πέτρος (Petros, masculine, means stone) and πέτρᾳ (petra, feminine, means rock). Is that the sort of distinction you build a doctrine on? You have to consider the context and other scriptures as well.

Biblical scholars have argued over this issue for 2000 years, and I doubt we can come up with any arguments that haven't already been heard. We could have a big Catholic/ Protestant fight here on YouTube, but what good would it do?

[musicLessons2]

That much is true, but the Aramaic precedes the Greek, and uses Kepa (Rock) and kepa (rock) interchangeably. Still, that aside, Mt 18:18 also Christ gives the other disciples power to bound (eject from the Christian community) a sinner, but not the power of the Keys. So even here, is a clear distinction. Paul exercised this power in 1 Cor 5:1-13, calling for Christians to expell the evil doer so he can contemplate restitution (2 Cor 5-11. i.e. that brethren are involved, is undeniable norm.

[musicLessons2]

No, doctrine is not built on just one passage, but rather meditating upon the whole. Last verse John admits "all He taught us could not be held within a whole world of books" (i.e.bible). Yet, Fr. Martin Luther, PhD, tho correct about indulgences, made the worse error of contravening Scripture, by inserting faith alone ("sola scriptura") into Rom 3:26, nowhere found in the Originals. So there's more to it than just "rock" vs Rock, but many mis-translations=discord + evil

[musicLessons2]

Translations aside, the important thing is actions. Common sense, dude--if you promote actions which are known to be harmful, and contrary to God's Teaching (such as saying stealing is OK, then actually "doing" it in practice, and then insulting others about it with no remorse), the proof is in what one does, not what he says. I'm not sure you're getting it, but clearly, you've belittled the Decalogue, and a whole host of other things from God, to "get away" with things. Not charitable/good.

[musicLessons2]

Also to further clarify the fuller meaning of Petras, Christ continued "I give thee Peter the keys...he whose sins you hold bound on earth, will be held bound in heaven". Giving the keys to one person, and not the other 11, is no trivial matter, as you suggest. Christ here delegated a power of judgment to a 3rd person, clearly showing that the Lord is not the "only" party involved in overall atonement.

[musicLessons2]

...and then your abusing Scripture (casually dismissing the Decalogue as not applicable today) in order to justify your Habit of stealing / piracy / slander. Christ sent false teachers like this to hell. The symptoms manifest in your actions: a) no remorse b) outright disregard for actual Scripture c) avoiding the issues, "a hit-and-run saboteur"...3 strikes against you anyone can verify. Why so dishonest? Your actions speak louder than your quotes. Why anger the Lord with even more fibs?

[musicLessons2]

What exactly do u mean by "He atoned for our sins so we would not have to." Pls clarify what u think scripture means by "atonement". Because your quote here literally means Hitler, Stalin, or any common thief, thug, rapist, abuser etc. automatically gets "saved" without having to make any amends to their victims, merely because you say Christ now made everyone unaccountable for anything. That would not be authentic scripture. Christ said make amends or be cast out (Matthew 18).

[ccoraxfan]

Atonement is what Jesus did when he died on the cross. He paid the penalty for the sins of the world, so that by believing in him we can have eternal life. It's the same concept as the priest in the Old Testament who sacrificed a lamb to atone for a man's sins, except that Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God, who could atone for all sins of all time.

Hitler, Stalin and all others who do not believe in Jesus Christ do not have salvation because of their unbelief. Belief is the key. (John 3:14-21)

[musicLessons2]

Exactly--and when you distort Scripture to suit your own ends, you do not "believe in" Christ. That is why his Sacrifice is Conditional upon people actually making the EFFORT to live out his Beatitudes, including to ATONE to those you injured. Otherwise, if you spouff "no remorse" for crap you did to your brethren, you directly contradict Christ's teachings, and do not believe in Him, and won't likely be saved due to your intransigence. Make amends, for your sake & also his! Think "others"!

[musicLessons2]

i.e.--is it OK to murder, steal, bear false witness (slander), covet the goods, and honor other gods besides the One, and "get away with it" without atoning to those you injured, merely because you claim Christ sacrifice on the Cross lets everyone get off scott-free? Surely, His Sacrifice requires more than this sort of liberal outlook...part of God's Love is that he'll hold us even more accountable if we don't atone to those we injured. i.e. others besides God are to be respected. Correct?

[ccoraxfan]

We do still sin, & must ask forgiveness for our sins. But we can't atone for our own sin. Our sins offend the Most Holy God, and the penalty would cost us our lives for eternity for even one sin. This is why Jesus came and sacrificed himself. He atoned for our sins so we would not have to. As new creatures in Christ, we have his Spirit working in us to make us more like Christ. There is still a penalty when we sin, but Jesus paid it so all who believe in him will not perish.

[musicLessons2]

Christ specifically said "make peace w your brethren before approaching the altar". His sacrifice did not mean the murderer doesn't owe acts of apology / restitution to those he murdered or stolen from--you don't just steal / slander / murder a person then shrug your shoulders and say "Oh, Christ forgave me." Recall, Christ stated he would also listen to your accusers. That is why it is vital in order to stay within the "saved" community, not to reject Christ's teachings, or he rejects you.

[musicLessons2]

Christ also said love one another as yourself. (His Beattitudes clarifying the Decalogue). When you treat 10 comandmts with contempt (as you do, saying it's "not modern") you condemn yourself. Misquoting Scripture is worshipping false gods, violating TC#1. I don't think u realize how deeply you offend ppl, and God, in your outright rejection of reason, common sense, faith from the heart, and Scripture. You've made up cold "legalisms" that ignore Christ's requirement 4 amends w ur brethren.

[ccoraxfan]

I'm afraid you've created a straw man and are arguing against him instead of me. I do not treat the 10 commandments with contempt. The only part of the law which I do not follow is that which applies to the Levitical priesthood and the system of sacrifices and the tabernacle/temple, etc. These things have all come to an end, including the system of support for the priests and Levites, which is the mandatory tithe. In Malachi it says to bring tithes into the storehouse, which no longer exists.

[musicLessons2]

Christ said the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law. He did not say "I come to get rid of the old law, but to fulfill it." That old law in new form still says pay all genuine sacred musicians on near-equal priority as the reverends and ministers, even though the storehouse has changed. (It still exists). Every congregation has a storehouse, and the spirit of the law still applies.

[ccoraxfan]

Malachi does not deal with the New Testament. Paul dealt with it when he said to give, not grudgingly or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Cor. 9:7) There is no storehouse as spoken of in Malachi, for that was attached to the temple in Jerusalem. There is also no command to give 10% of your income to the church. You are to support those who minister to you though, and that is by your offerings, given as you feel led and as the Lord has blessed you. We are in agreement on that.

[musicLessons2]

Back to main pt: So basically you're saying anyone can kill, rape, slander, steal from, cheat on, and not have to lift a finger to make amends to the victims. You just "pass the buck" to Christ dying for our sins. Christ did not say anyone can now get away with anything they want. True repentance means having genuine remorse for your sins, and trying to make amends to those you damaged. Otherwise, you're not repenting, and won't be "saved". Dude, it's common sense, straight from Scripture.

[ccoraxfan]

I am not saying that at all! I wish you would stop making false interpretations of my beliefs. I do believe in restitution, making amends with people you've done wrong to, etc. I do not however believe that you can or must pay for your own sins. The blood of Christ is what makes you right before God. If your salvation depends on you not sinning, then you are lost, because none of us can live righteous lives and never sin. Forgetting to apologize to a brother wronged will not send you to hell.

[musicLessons2]

Hi mate, I'm only going by what you wrote, and by your actions (speak louder than words). Your pattern of "doing" is: a) distort actual words in scripture and instigate sins of hate / discord in others b) ignore their grievances raised c) avoid the issues, by making up "new" things. Peaceful words of advice: admit where you fibbed scripture and called jews/catholics satanists, and make amends with that good man. Anything less, and you're just skirting the issues, no remorse, w discord/hell.

[musicLessons2]

Judas knew full well his sin, yet also "believed in" Christ, having witnessed Him first-hand. He could have been saved had he merely apologized (sincerely) to Christ AND the others he wronged. But he CHOSE not to make amends (as you do). Your lax-attitude is apparently a result of being misled. Choosing to evade restitution has indeed sent MANY people to hell. Your interpretation is not truthful, nor honest. It seems you insist upon offending the face of Truth itself. That's serious, bud.

[ccoraxfan]

Judas believed only in the same way "the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19) He never believed in Christ for his salvation, having rejected him at the last because he didn't do what Judas thought he should do. That is why he betrayed him. He would not have been saved by apologizing to Christ for betraying him, but he could have been saved had he believed in him.

[musicLessons2]

Sorry bud, Judas chose to be possessed perfectly, which means no remorse for anything whatsoever. Same with other murderers interviewed--they admit having been possessed by "a force", then had no remorse whatsoever. You apparently display the same exact pattern. Your writings were shown clearly contradicting Scripture (Matt 18 just now), so why don't you just admit it, instead of evading left-right like judas? Have u no courage to face the facts? Your testimony reveals a stony heart.

[musicLessons2]

Mt 18:6 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin...better for him to have a millstone around his neck and drowned"--like Christ's judgment upon Judas "better he not been born". Point is, when you modify Scripture to a Mutant version (i.e. "not believing in Lord), then pick on good believers, you must make amends, because it's deathly serious for you and others you cause to sin.

[ziolkowskistrasse]

super good you play an the registration.

what is this for an organ and where is ist stay?

[gogogadget91]

Good...