"I am a lover of the cause of Christ and of virtue, chastity, and an upright, steady course of conduct and a holy walk. I despise a hypocrite or a covenant breaker. I judge them not; God shall judge them according to their works. I am a lover even of mine enemies, for an enemy seeketh to destroy openly. I can pray for those who despitefully use and persecute me, but for all I cannot hope." Joseph Smith Jr.
"I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved." Joseph Smith Jr.
In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father prepared a plan to enable us to become like Him and receive a fulness of joy. The scriptures refer to this plan as “the plan of salvation” (Alma 24:14; Moses 6:62), “the great plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8), “plan of redemption” (Jacob 6:8; Alma 12:30), and “the plan of mercy” (Alma 42:15). The plan of salvation... It includes the Creation, the Fall, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and all the laws, ordinances, and doctrines of the gospel.
@scottwins2 yes and all these according 2the bom only not Bible. Mankind can phantom whatever it wants about the person of God whenever it has not been enought or to his satisfaction what HE has said about Himself in His Word only. And there surges mr. joseph smith & crew with a stolen draft novel from mr Spalding and take on 1 of the biggest religious Con o all time. When your ears start itching outside the Bible u become easy target to the beautiful picture and promises of smith. :)
@Shavarnarak Yes, that is so true. I joined the LDS church over 30 years ago but plan to drop out, after being enlightened from these YouTube message boards. The first thing I'm going to do is start using profanity, like you.
@cindybin2001 You have decided to join the Mob? With the lies they tell never and a mention of Governor Lillburn Boggs and his ilk here and all there murders and burnings of homes and molesting children, Oh not a mention of it. Joseph helped Restore the true gospel of Christ the Reformers were looking for. An Satan that Devil made a plan of lies all through the courts of people that knew Joesph to try to debunk him. He found out for us that Christ lives as prophets do. Not Platos "Devine One"
Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
lol pre existence? try proverbs my friends "before he gathered the heavens i was there with him, as one who stood by him before the foundations of the world." can you really get any more clear than that.
The irony is how various Christian factions use scientific evidence to argue against the doctrines of the LDS church. Yet, these same anti-LDS factions howl with anger when scientific evidence argues against all Christian mythology. This includes nonsense such as intelligent design, all "miracles" of Jesus, the lack of substantive archeological/ geological evidence for most of the Bible's events (e.g., floods, Solomon's cities), the existence of Jehovah/ Yahweh/ God, the list of goes on.
mormon contradictions! Alma 11:27-39, 44; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; 3 contradicts Doctrine and Covenants: Section 121:32; 132:18-20, 37. Alma 18:26-28; 22:8-11 contradicts D. & C. - Section 130:22. 2 Nephi 2:14; Jacob 4:9 Pearl of Great Price - Moses, Chapter 2 contradicts Book of Abraham - Chapters 4 and 5. Ether 3:12; 2 Nephi 9:34 contradicts P.G.P. - Book of Abraham 2:22-25. Jacob 4:9; Alma 18:28, 34-36 contradicts D. & C. - Section 93:23, 29-33 P.G.P. - Bk of Abraham 3:18, 21-23.
@dynobreath No, Lucifer first step is to have you hating other people's faith. You see, all religions are at each other's throats. That's what Lucifer is doing right now. Also, promoting hatred and criticisms. If I were Christ, I would simply love the sinners, and not the sins. Treat them with kindness and love, no matter what faith they are in.
@kiwichristian2009 not so rubbish : ) outside the new testament there is no record of a God Jesus ie: walking n water, raising the dead, resurrection, water to wine ... or any historical or archaeological evidences of a Jesus . COULD BE a borrowed story from earlier, ancient , civilisations + is mostly pagan ie xmas tree,easter bunny. ( got to like santa tho as that's all we know )
But hey I don't begrudge your belief. I'm agnostic not atheist.
leave the mormons alone they're nae hurntin anyone, "oh they got a passage wrong oh they belivev in convertin the deed" so what, want to pick on anyone just pick on the jews like everyone eles, its rather fun
Jeremiah 1: 5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
The book of Jeremiah is wrong? There isn't a re-mortal life?
Unfortunately this guy does not know his Bible. He needs to get a real testimony and not for profit testimony.
Since His coming would be obvious to all, Jesus warned us not to believe those who claimed to see Him in secret. (Zechariah 14:4; Matthew 24:23-27; Luke 17:23-24; 21:8; Mark 13:21-22; Rev.1:7)
This crushes the "first vision" claims of Joseph Smith.
Ok... so basically, your only reason for believing in a book, is because the book itself says it's the truth?
Geez, keep the Koran away from this fellow.
Don't believe everything you read, buddy. More often than not it's donright bullshit. On the other hand, if you're already quoting the Bible left and right, it's probably too late for you anyway.
Umm, no. I believe the bible is true because of: Manuscript evidence, archeological evidence, predictive prophecy, and scientific proof for the people and places that it speaks of. Now, why don't you get back to your Mad magazine?
Well it is common for religious folks to recurr to ad hominem. I'm used to it. If you want to have a serious discussion on the topic of religion and how it poisons humanity, just let me know. I have a lot of free time on my hands this week.
Iced-I'm sure you do. I would not waste my time having any discussion with a bitter, ignorant fool like you. Save your stupid drivel for the High times editorial page. Only an idiot would come on this YT and piss in the well like you do.
" When Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).
He, testskriftene, if you exist. What is so special about Shawn McCraney? The guy LITERALLY believes in the account of the creation in the Bible. He believes that the earth and plants were created before the sun. Shawn McCraney is an anti-scientist and dumb as clay. Why are you so fascinated with him?
You're right it does say that it contains the fullness of the everlasting gospel. It doesn't say that God would stop revelation or that it contains everything he ever said. Amos 3:7.
Bible means a book of books. It is a collection of books. People not God decided what would be in the bible. There are other books or scrolls/writings out there written by prophets that were inspired by God that did not make the cut because the council of Nicea did not vote yes on it.
The Council of Nicea was one of twenty councils that occurred over a period of 1900 years--the last one ended in 1964-"Vatican II". It was by no careless discernment and leading of the Holy Spirit the canon, that constitutes the Bible, was established through a unanimous, God-breathed affirmation of a collection of letters and books-some of which were rejected and others retained as "helpful" to scripture-without being scriptural. Heaven-help anyone who trifles, adds or detracts to or from it.
If you believe in the Catholic church then that is fine. You can't be forced to decide that those councils are wrong or that those men were not inspired by the holy spirit. It is the same thing with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We have faith in our leaders the same way. I believe the councils were mostly political, so does history.
I cannot comprehend the meaning of most of what you've written. Your last sentence, however, is constructed in such a way as to be understood and answered.
How is it that matters of dogma and strict doctrine could be interpreted as political in nature? If so, issues like Sunday Sabbath, Easter and Christmas, Virgin Birth, compilation of scripture, etc. become matters of politics? History is a matter of record--not something to be recognized or repressed according to prejudice or convenience.
What do you not comprehend about what I have written? It is stated very simply.
As to to your matters of dogma and doctrine, the Catholic church was formed by Constantine not Peter, to unite his empire because of the rising popularity of Christianity. He had to mesh prior beliefs with Christianity to hold his empire together. That is what history tells us. Then again a lot of arguments can be made against any church. It just comes down to your own faith and the spirit telling you what is true.
Constantine adopted Christianity whether Christians wanted him to or not. The Church thrived during the persecutions-and continued to thrive after they were abolished. To suggest that Constantine established the offices of bishop, priests, deacons, etc (as is implied) has no historical basis. The empire assisted Christianity during and after Constantine.
You can create yarns to rationalize your defective pseudo-theology but it has no effect on established and founded history-nor The Church.
STOP THE WHINING TRUESEEKER...You ask for facts & yet I have not yet seen you bring up a single one yourself. Jesus was asked if He was the king of the Jews. Jesus responded
"Sayest thou these things of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?"
Now take a deep breath & read Jesus' response over again & think about it & then think about all your complaints about His Church & stop getting your informations from the anti-websites...they are not good for your health. Go figure!
Like I've told Ramm. If it wasn't facts that brought you into mormonism, what good are facts to you? Nice comment though. I now have more respect for Ramm.
Your right, it wasnt facts that brought me into mormonism, it wasnt the fact that I was born into it that I'm active today, I was inactive basically for 3 years just confused, it wasnt until I really truly wanted to know what was true that I read Joseph Smiths first vision and couldnt stop crying, thats the only answer I needed to know that he was a true prophet and everything else just fell into place. Truthseeker, read the book of mormon, Open your heart fully to the words of God.
A CHILD BORN BLIND...Can you imagine how Christians would criticize parents of these unfortunate children...if Christ would've put the blame on the parents? Perhaps something went wrong during the nine months in his mother's womb but not the spirit sent from God.
Of course there is life before we were born. But Shawn doesnt want to preach that 'cause only Mormons preach such doctrine & yet most Christians often wanting to "go back to God the Father" Were we with Him before? Of course we were!
TRUTHSEEKER "well if you said there was life before we were born then it must be true."
Thank you...it is true. We lived with our Heavenly Father before we were born. He is the Father of our spirits & without our spirits we're dead & useless "For a body without a spirit is dead.." (JAMES.2:26)
Nice verse, but its a bit different than my Bible. My Bible says 'wihout THE spirit'. Why is this significant? Hmmm, the Bible often refers to some spirit thingy a lot. I wonder if that is the spirit it is referring to. Maybe reading before the verse helps..Plus, I must have missed the verse that says we existed with God before we were born. I'd like to see that one
Remember Christians, the will of God is no Catholic, Protestant,Orthodox, Penticostal, Adventist, JW, Mormon Etc. NO DIVISION, Only Christians, holy, helping and sharing instead of buying and selling.
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:9-21)
The list can keep going and going, how can what is said in these verses happen to those people if they didnt already exist or "pre-exist"?
Shawn once again contradicts the Bible, yet people still listen to him, why? Do they really hate the mormon people and take anything they can get to try to destroy them?
Angles are sons of God. Show us a verse where it says YOU knew God before you were born, rather than God knowing us. They are examples of God knowing the beginning to the end. My hate is only reserved for deception and false teachings, not the people that believe it. I lived my whole life in the heart of mormon ville. I have friends and family that are mormon.
So what youre saying is we just poofed out of nowere but god knew that we were going to poof out of nowere and be people and before those who are like moses and abraham and even JESUS god already assigned them to be like how they were before they poofed into existence, we didnt even exist before we were born right? Thats what youre saying, good mix of atheism and scientology into your religion, I wouldnt go around claiming to be a christian if i were you, no wonder youre seeking truth lol =P
I hate to bring the news to you, but that is what Christians believe. You may not like the idea we never pre-existed as 'gods' before being born on Earth, but then again, mormonism appeals to those who choose to believe what they 'feel' is right. Even if one could prove we did pre-exist, it still doesn't prove mormonism. Finding support for mormon theology doesn't prove mormonism. Mormonism is based on the word of J.S. and events from the BOM. Mormon theology itself is nothing new.
What you are implying is you believe all beings have always been and always will be....just like God, right? You think the Bible teaches that? Or is that more new age doctrine?
I believe God created all beings and that we are all Gods children, I'm sorry if your religion doesnt believe that but can you give me biblical proof that its not the case? That we just poofed out of nowere?
We aren't all God's children. Only direct creations of God are God's children (I.e. angles, Adam, Jesus). You are a child of man, or son of man. It is not until you are born again that you 'earn the right to BECOME a son of God' and become a new creation. John 1:12. You are then 'adopted'. Romans 8:15-17; Galatians 4:5-7, Ephesians 1:5
So youre saying that god only accepts those who take Christs name? What happens to all those people in the world who have never even heard the name Jesus Christ? Are they damned or not children of god because they havent been born again?
Jeremiah1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Ya, it's just too bad Christian belief starts in the Bible, and mormon belief starts with mormon theology, then gets justified by cherry picking single verses. The main mormon theme is the same: You would believe in a pre-existence even if that verse didn't exist yes?
Basically it doesn't matter what is or isn't in the Bible to a mormon from my many years of living amongst them, and looking at mormon theology. What does matter to a mormon is what is written the other three books of mormon doctrine. Amazingly very little comes out of the BOM when it comes to mormon theology.
You are right on many points. The Bible for us is not the beginning and the end. God is. He has been the same since the beginning. He calls prophets. The prophets teach the people and write the scripture( that is how the bible was written by the way). LDS believe he still calls prophets to guide us. Scripture is still being written. We would have the same beliefs and doctrine even if we didn't have the bible although it goes hand in hand with our doctrine as well. Believe me. I actually read it.
Mormon theology contradicts the Bible completely. I'd say DONT believe me, find out for yourself, but there aint no convincin' someone who doesn't wanna be convinced. All mormons follow desire for truth.
The healing of that situation would glorify God for one. God is trying to demonstrate to us that while we are spiritually dead bc of the fall and sin of Adam and all his childre. Along with that, he is trying to demonstrate that we are also spiritually blind, but in the gospels he used physical pictures. So again and again you see Jesis healing blind people and that really points to a bigger spiritual reality that yes, through Jesus we can be made whole, but we need to be born again. See God.
I know the church is true, i know Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, i know Thomas S Monson is the True Prophet of God, I know that Jesus Died and rose again For us, I know the Book Of Mormon To Be The Word of God, In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen!
Hi Shawn, just thought id write you my testimony to inspire you or piss you off!
The J-dubs KNOW their religion is true. The Muslims KNOW theirs is true too. Giving your automatron mormon testimony about how you 'know' it's true is not a testimony. Real testimonies are about actual events where a complete change of heart has happened, something we can all witness, instead of just taking your word for it.
I live in the heart of Mormon Utah, and I have observed no real spiritual change you imply among mormons, certainly nothing compared to a reborn Christian. Doesn't even scratch the surface. Automatron testimonies regarding how one 'knows' the BOM is true, and J.S. was a true prophet is some pretty weak sauce. I've witnessed 100x more elsewhere.
Interesting...I live in a heavy Evangelical area and would say the same thing about them. Sadly, I think you are probably right about some LDS who just go through the motions. However, that has no bearing on the validity of the message they take too lightly.
I don't know what you would consider strong sauce, but I've witnessed hundreds of LDS who have turned their lives around and live lives of service.
I DO agree with you on your premise though. We are known by our fruits.
What the Bible is really referring to isn't helping old ladies across the street when referring to fruits. It's referring to teaching and following the word of God, rather than following false prophets and their doctrines.
Actually, Jesus explains how to discern false prophets (teachers) from true ones. The Bible (Word of God in your theology?) wasn't even around when the Lord explained this.
The fruits are our (their) deeds (see context).
That's why I haven't called you a "narrow minded fool" yet. (GRIN)
And you're the one in the cult. Whatever dude, enjoy your expectations to be like God. If you haven't seen mormonism for what it is by now, facts aren't what got you into it, so why would facts get you out.
I had hoped that you would have seen my teasing personality in my response. I had and have no animosity towards you.
I'm sorry you are so filled with hatred towards things I hold to be sacred. The Holy Spirit has testified to my soul that they are true. May God bless you in your more righteous pursuits.
Mormons are a cult, the definition of a cult is someone who follows a single being, that being is Jesus Christ. =) Try to get a new argument or thing to call LDS people, cult is more of a compliment.
Nice try. There are many earmarks to a cult, one of them being ruled by a single human leader, not a single 'being'. That one and the rest of them are hardly compliments.
Now you are comparing Moses to J.S.? Is that a joke? J.S. and mormonism adhere to many cult earmarks. There were plenty of reasons to believe Moses, as they could see with their own eyes. With Smith, I think the only thing anyone actually saw was him sneaking out of homes zipping his pants up.
P.S. Moses wrote how to determine a real prophet, of which Smith fails.
People have come up to me saying this is how he failed and are blind to how he succeeded, you should go look that up rather than trying to focus on the bad. No matter what people are going to disagree and criticize JS and say this is how it happend, this is what he did, but they dont get the whole story, its just an opinion. Believe me, I wasnt easily convinced, I hit rock bottom in my life before I really found out the truth which brought me up. Read the Book of Mormon and pray about it.
that is because those people are aware of the biblical test of a prophet. Guess what, you don't need 10, you only need one prophetic failure. I am certainly aware of how Smith succeeded, especially in freemasonry. I don't need to pray about the BOM. The real word of God already exposes it as fiction. I am happy you are not at rock bottom anymore, but getting lifted from there is not an indication of truth.
In a sense youre right, give 1 prophetic failure that Joseph Smith had and do your own research on it, promise somewere it will say it came true as opposed to somewere else it saying it never happened. The Bible never proves the Book of Mormon as fiction, the bible tells you how to test things like the book of mormon to know if its true or not, the book of mormon testafies that Christ is the savior of the world just as the bible does, if you read it you would know that for yourself too.
Not 'in a sense', it is what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't even need to prove the BOM as fiction. If I wanted to prove Harry Potter as non-fictional I would get the same results. The BOM can say anything it wants. What the BOM says has little to do with mormon theology anyway. 90% of mormon theology comes out of the DOC and POGP. Believe what you want. I will continue to expose it for those who care about the truth, instead of their own truth.
Show me were the Book of Mormon is proved false by the Bible? And if you knew mormon theology you would know that the doctrine is in the bible and the book of mormon, not 90 percent of it is in the D&C haha, way to make yourself look dumb.
It wasn't what you were shown that got you into mormonism, so why would showing you anything make a difference now? I have a feeling you don't know much about your own theology, let alone the Bible. If it were truth you were after, you wouldn't need to be shown.
And I have a feeling you dont have anything to back up your statment that I cant shoot down, I know a lot about Mormon theology and probably a lot more about the Bible than you do. If it were truth that you had you would share it.
Mormonism is one of the easiest to expose, because their theology is highly gnostic and pagan, so there is plenty to back up. You don't need to get it from me. All the information you NEED is very easy to find. A lot of cultists want to stay cultists no matter what you show them, and this is what I sense with you, so keep holding your head high, because you just KNOW J.S. was a true prophet and the BOM is true, right?
And at the same time Mormonism is the easiest to back up using the Bible, all the information needed is in there. Believe me, if you knew me personally you would know that if I found something wrong with something I would leave it in a heart beat, find something wrong with mormonism that contradicts something in the bible that I cant use something else from the bible to contradict what you said.
Mormonism backed by the Bible? Your joking again aren't you.
Of course you can. When viewing the Bible through cult colored glasses (in your case mormonism), there are always little verses here and there that seem to support it.
It's called FITTING THE TEXT TO YOUR BELIEFS, instead of FITTING YOUR BELIEFS TO THE TEXT.
Haha, you only think im joking cause I'm sure theres things that you have missed in the Bible. Who ever said I was fitting the text for my beliefs, what about your beliefs?
If you want to start turning this into a Bible bash on mormonism bring it on, I guarantee I will win.
When I die, I believe I will go to paradise based on based on what Christ says to the robber here in Luke 23:43. Today you will be with me in paradise, Christ didnt go to his father in heaven for the 3 days he was gone.
Your pride says a lot. If you are a winner in your own mind, it doesn't matter who loses. The typical mormon view of the Bible has doubt, and that the BOM is above it (also a cult earmark), so here again what would be the point? There are tons of videos on youtube that spank morminism to the ground. If you haven't listened to them, why would you listen to me? You see why I am reluctant. Your confidence doesn't represent truth either.
My confidence is that I know more about the bible than you do. I never said that the Bible has doubt and any educated mormon on mormon history or the book of mormon knows at least 2 things, theres a verse in the book of mormon saying basically this book is for the purpose that you might believe the other book (book of mormon building up the bible)
And also a revelation to joseph smith about the book of mormon not destroying the bible but building it up.
A 19 year old mormon that knows the Bible? This is some good stuff. Shouldn't you be on a mission right now 'earning' your way into heaven? Earlier you said you knew you were going to heaven. Based on what?
No, I said I believe I was going to a place called Paradise based on what christ said to the robber while he was on the cross. So what, i'm 19 and not on a mission, its a step personally I dont feel ready for at the moment ;) And we dont earn our way into heaven, thats a false concept that people assume.
So you are not ready, cool. Earning your way into heaven is also a cult earmark ;), and can unfortunately be shown as mormon theology through your own historical documents and professions of mormons today. If it isn't what you believe, fine, but although salvation by grace is often quoted, it's not what is taught, and you should know this. After all, what is the point to being a mormon if by grace alone?
Well is the grace the fact that you are just saved bottom line? You accept christ and youre saved? I can accept Christ and break all the commandments I want but I'm still saved by the grace of God? Or is the grace of God that he sent his son to die for our sins and its up to us if we want to live our lives according to keeping the commandments. Surely god wont save you just because, you do have to do something. Matthew 19:16-17.
My friend, you already break all the commandments. SALVATION is through grace and grace alone. When one is BORN AGAIN they become a new creation and find no joy in unrighteousness, though they remain so. In mormon theology, they more or less believe Christ is their ressurector, where you go after is based on your works. In a sense, you are your own savior. YOU DON"T KNOW JESUS.
So what you are saying is even after one is saved or "Born Again" its okay to go out and kill a bunch of people, commit adultry, steal, worship other gods and idols because by the grace of god youre already saved right? Doesnt sound like that would be found in the bible =/
I am reminded of when one man asked Christ how to inheret the kingdom of god and christ said keep the commandments.
Anyone who is born again and receives the spirit has Christ inside of them Galatians 2:20. and the spirit John 14:16-17
2 Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would
No one is righteous, but those saved despise their own unrighteousness.
Yea, mormons teach the born again doctrine because its in the bible, unless a man is born of the water and of the spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom of god-John 3:5. I'm just going to stop commenting, this is my last one, just request a book called Gospel Principles. Read the book of mormon, and then read the gospel principles book. Then you will know first hand what mormons really believe.
I know what the principles of the gospel are already. I can read it in the Bible. Certainly not in books written by men such as your 'gospel principles book'
As far as reading the BOM, I don't usually read fiction.
Well, I know I said that the other comment was going to be my last one. but as long as you keep saying negative things I should correct you.
How is the Book of Mormon fiction? Because Shawn McCraney says so and he used to be mormon so he knows all of everything? Lack of evidence? How do you know the Bible is so true?
Facts buddy, facts. Facts are how I know the Bible is SO true, and that the BOM is fiction. Looking for truth in the Bible I got 10x what I needed to be convinced. BOM still at 0
One more comment regarding evidence. I'm sure going to believe a collection of books penned by over 40 men and women of different times, ethnic backgrounds, and professions all over a 2000 year period, referring to actual places on Earth that exist today, in languages that exist today, than the word of one man. Just like mormons, Muslims are taking the word of ONE guy as well. It's a sad thing. I think the Koran does a better job though of not defeating itself as much as the BOM.
Well ya know, its a well known fact that there are over like, 20 books that are mentioned in the bible that arent in the bible at all, and if you need evidence to know that something is true, youre a sign seeker and in christs words found in the bible. Sign seekers are adulterous and perverts.
Typical mormon anti-Biblical spew. Maybe your 'prophet' J.S. should have found the golden plates to the supposed 'missing books' from the Bible as well. He did after all, claim the BOM to be the fullness of the gospel. Just because books are mentioned in the Bible, does not mean they are the word of God. The books weren't missing, they were just never added.
And why was the decision to never add them? Were they not important enough to go into the Bible? The words of God are the words of god, they are important and everlasting and who is to decide that the words in the bible are the only words of god?
And the gospel principles book is a book on what mormons really believe giving book of mormon and bible refrences to support the beliefs thats why I suggested it, if you want to be ignoant and just assume mormons believe something than whatever, its obvious you just have a hate towards everything mormon without an understanding of anything mormon.
I don't have to be ignorant. Using the D & C and POGP alone is enough, not to mention I've lived in the heart of mormonville my whole life, have mormon friends, and mormon family, for 36 years now. I now mormonism resembles secret societies in many ways, but what mormons believe has been no secret. Especially the mormons that realize the truth about it and discuss it with me. These people including Shawn went on missions, but a 19 year old guy from Oregon knows better....ok man.
With how much mormon teachings change over time, how can one really keep track? Mormonism of today is trying to look more and more Christian, preaching double talk of salvation through grace, but then works too. I'm not sure you even really know what to believe, other than 'in mormonism'.
With how much mormon teachings change over time? Lets look at "christian" teachings, there was one single true church, christs church back in the day that Christ set up, over a course of 2009 years humanity has had time to screw it up, why are there so many different beilefs among "christians" who claim the same thing? Why are there so many different religions based on and claiming to be the one Christ established? Which one is really true?
Remember those fundamentals I showed you? Real Christianity is the church. The body of believers. The ones that are truly born again, containing the spirit of the Lord. The prideless. There are slight variations of beliefs in many religions, but it's those fundamentals that count, that have never been lost. When the variations become severe enough, then they can be damning.
Ahh, but you contradict a typical verse used against mormons found in the book of Galatians with the slight variations on the basic fundamentals of Christianity, doing something slightly different from what Christ says you should do is perverting the gospel. Good job at owning yourself, go sit in the corner.
SO TRUESEEKER..You prefer reading the Holy Bible written by men who were inspired by God; translated & compiled by men who were not inspired by God?God knows how many books these guys threw away from being included in the Bible, & God knows how many "plain and precious things taken away from the book (Bible) Which is the book of the Lamb of God" (1NEPHI.13:28)Go figure
If you are stranded out in a rain-forest darkest nite by yourself, Would you rather drive a vehicle with ONE or TWO+ Headlites?
A verse in the BOM discrediting the Bible...go figure. How accurate, or what is or isn't missing from the Bible can be researched, just like the source of your 'new age' theology.
So go research the book of the words of the lord and what not, read and point out every verse that talks about a book not in the bible and research it, but how will you know that your research on that book leads you to the real thing instead of something some guy just made up?
RAMM "Yea, mormons teach the born again doctrine because its in the bible"
When did the Protestants (Born again) Christians ever had a Bible? When they left the Pope & the Catholics they took with them the Catholic Bible, the Catholic robes, collars & the Catholic cross, etc. FYI, Protestant Christians are still dwelling on Catholic beliefs & doctrines. The only Protestant Church that practice baptism by immersion is the Baptist Church the rest with water-drops & lately changed. Go figure
I guess you missed my point earlier brutha. If you have ever hated, as Jesus said, you have committed murder in your heart already. If you have ever looked at a woman in lust, you have committed adultery. Jesus said if you love him you will keep his commandments, and this is true. Any born again Christian I know went to sinning less. Much less. Your sin will not get you to hell, just as your works wont get you to heaven.
I've discussed with many mormons and I am very aware of the verses mormons use to justify their cult. As far as my beliefs, they are Biblical only, and certainly not to support an institutionalized religion/cult. If the Bible backed up mormonism, or if mormonism actually had legs to stand on, and represented truth, I'd be one, but it's not worth my soul to be part of the sub masonic brotherhood.
Well, thats the great thing about the book of mormon and the bible is the LDS editions have whats called foot notes, were you can cross refrence were in the book of mormon its talking about the same thing in the bible and were in the bible its talking about the same thing in the book of mormon. Haha, you really dont know what you are talking about, just stop commenting back already your points are blind and so are you to the truth.
When you say Bible you really mean the J.S. Translation yes? That's the great thing about the mormon Bible. It includes annotations of Joseph Smith's version haha. Just like your 'prophet' Hinckley once said. The god/s you believe in are not the same as the Christian God. I've got a live account if you want to talk about it.
Theres annotations that are there were you can turn here in the JS translation and see what that says but the text is not combined with the standard books of the bible so to answer your question yes and no.
Of course. By NOT combining them or replacing the text mormonism can have the best of both worlds, or have their cake and eat it too. They can appear Christian to the rest of the world by claiming to use the 'King James' version, but have their altered text as well.
In short a Christian is someone who 'belongs to Christ'. That means giving your life over to Christ and accept his sacrifice as your key to the door of salvation. Different gospels that preach works for salvation means you do not accept this, you are your own savior and have no relationship with Christ. Anyone can put the name of Jesus in their title.
Haha, 2 of those fundamentals are just absurd, 1 and 3.
#1, its a well known fact that there were Christians before the Bible was even composed and even before Christ was born, the bible is true as long as its translated correctly, meaning no verses missing, no doctrines missing no doctrines added and so forth. The Jehovahs Witness bible I dont see as the word of god or a bible because its missing scriptures.
Christians (followers of Christ) before Christ? There were Christians before the NT was canonized yes. The OT was already there. I agree with you regarding the J-dubs.
Christs death on the cross was a free gift for salvation yes and no, its not, I'm gonna die so that you can get off scotch free, you still do have to repent. James 2 says faith without works is dead, you can find in the book of revelation it saying judged according by their works, if you commit a sin, you have to repent!
Repentance follows salvation.Yes it is true faith without works is dead. It says nothing regarding a requirement for salvation. Works also follow salvation, but not because they are required. A person saved now has the spirit. They work because it invokes them to do so. The works I do are not because I think I am getting a reward. I deserve no reward. Thank God for grace!
So what youre saying is that if youre saved you can break the commandments and still be saved.Thats showing how much you dont love God, and contradicting to when the man asked Christ how to inherit the kingdom of god and christ replied keep the commandments.
What Christians are not are polytheists (mother gods and multi gods is completely pagan),or people who believe they can become like God. Early pseudo Christian groups were the gnostics, who put man at the level of God or the deity in man, and the Arians, who take the deity away from Christ.
So youre contradicting the verse in either Hebrews or Corinthians talking about us being heirs of god and if heirs co heirs of christ, if youre an heir, that means you get what someone has, what does god have? Everything =) Contradict the bible more with your religions teachings, youre easy to pick apart =P
Like I said before. You can argue all you want, 'prove' your points all you want, but THE mormon religion is based on the word of J.S. and the events of the BOM. That is really where you should start.
You could very well start there, the LDS religion teaches as much from the Book of Mormon as it does the Bible. If you had both of them and read both of them you could cross refrence perfectly were the doctrine is said in one book and were it is in the other. They work great togeather to make you understand more that Jesus Christ is the savior.
"You could very well start there, the LDS religion teaches as much from the Book of Mormon as it does the Bible"
I would have to agree to a point with this. They use the BOM and the Bible very little. It's a truth by inspiration type belief, so telling of Sally's miracle would be a conviction of truth long before any silly words from the Bible would.
Christianity would be a cult because if you think about it Jesus claimed to be the son of God, thats pretty high in authority
Whoever said that the Book of Mormon is over the Bible? Are you saying that a bible that has the entire doctrine about homosexuality and women taken out of it is still a correct bible?
Whoever said Mormonism teaches a different gospel? In a sense a different Jesus because he's not looked at as being God the Father or equal to.
Your own BOM says it is higher than the Bible as the 'most correct book on earth', and then goes on to demean the Bible as it is believed to be the word of God 'as long as it is translated correctly'. Did J.S. approve of the Bible? I think not since he was working on his own translation. I have lived in Utah my whole life. I know the mormon attitude towards the Bible ;)
You see, you summarize the Bible as if all Bibles are the word of god, if theres a bible out there thats missing doctrines is it still a correct bible?
See, the thing about the phrase as long as it is translated correctly, a Bible that is missing a doctrine is not translated correctly and is not a bible in my mind.
And lastly, if you knew anything about mormonism you would know that pressure doesnt have any thing to do with staying in. I stopped going for quite a long time and there was no pressure to go back, but when I finally did I was still accepted. Do more research or get a better argument. Its obvious you just accuse based on others opinions and things others have said, go seek the truth rather than listen to peoples opinions. Im done with you, youre easy.
"I am a lover of the cause of Christ and of virtue, chastity, and an upright, steady course of conduct and a holy walk. I despise a hypocrite or a covenant breaker. I judge them not; God shall judge them according to their works. I am a lover even of mine enemies, for an enemy seeketh to destroy openly. I can pray for those who despitefully use and persecute me, but for all I cannot hope." Joseph Smith Jr.
scottwins2 6 months ago
"I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved." Joseph Smith Jr.
scottwins2 6 months ago
I fill sad about this guy he does not know what he is talking about.
JKs1776 7 months ago
In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father prepared a plan to enable us to become like Him and receive a fulness of joy. The scriptures refer to this plan as “the plan of salvation” (Alma 24:14; Moses 6:62), “the great plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8), “plan of redemption” (Jacob 6:8; Alma 12:30), and “the plan of mercy” (Alma 42:15). The plan of salvation... It includes the Creation, the Fall, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and all the laws, ordinances, and doctrines of the gospel.
scottwins2 7 months ago
@scottwins2 yes and all these according 2the bom only not Bible. Mankind can phantom whatever it wants about the person of God whenever it has not been enought or to his satisfaction what HE has said about Himself in His Word only. And there surges mr. joseph smith & crew with a stolen draft novel from mr Spalding and take on 1 of the biggest religious Con o all time. When your ears start itching outside the Bible u become easy target to the beautiful picture and promises of smith. :)
7wiiskate 6 months ago
I truely hate this guy always talkin crap about mormons. By the way am a mormon
10footbal 8 months ago
You're version of Christian mythology is incorrect while my version of Christian mythology is correct!
SmileysRevenge100 1 year ago
Mormonism, Christianity....
Same shit, both are nonsense.
Shavarnarak 1 year ago
@Shavarnarak Yes, that is so true. I joined the LDS church over 30 years ago but plan to drop out, after being enlightened from these YouTube message boards. The first thing I'm going to do is start using profanity, like you.
cindybin2001 7 months ago
@cindybin2001 You have decided to join the Mob? With the lies they tell never and a mention of Governor Lillburn Boggs and his ilk here and all there murders and burnings of homes and molesting children, Oh not a mention of it. Joseph helped Restore the true gospel of Christ the Reformers were looking for. An Satan that Devil made a plan of lies all through the courts of people that knew Joesph to try to debunk him. He found out for us that Christ lives as prophets do. Not Platos "Devine One"
scottwins2 6 months ago
Or in other words:
"Their Bullshit is wrong"!!!
"Our Bullshit is RIGHT"!!!!!
Worldview69 1 year ago
Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Malachi4n5 1 year ago
what a bunch of boneheads.
lardo444 1 year ago
lol pre existence? try proverbs my friends "before he gathered the heavens i was there with him, as one who stood by him before the foundations of the world." can you really get any more clear than that.
hurley322 1 year ago
The irony is how various Christian factions use scientific evidence to argue against the doctrines of the LDS church. Yet, these same anti-LDS factions howl with anger when scientific evidence argues against all Christian mythology. This includes nonsense such as intelligent design, all "miracles" of Jesus, the lack of substantive archeological/ geological evidence for most of the Bible's events (e.g., floods, Solomon's cities), the existence of Jehovah/ Yahweh/ God, the list of goes on.
CaptainMacNasty 1 year ago
mormon contradictions! Alma 11:27-39, 44; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; 3 contradicts Doctrine and Covenants: Section 121:32; 132:18-20, 37. Alma 18:26-28; 22:8-11 contradicts D. & C. - Section 130:22. 2 Nephi 2:14; Jacob 4:9 Pearl of Great Price - Moses, Chapter 2 contradicts Book of Abraham - Chapters 4 and 5. Ether 3:12; 2 Nephi 9:34 contradicts P.G.P. - Book of Abraham 2:22-25. Jacob 4:9; Alma 18:28, 34-36 contradicts D. & C. - Section 93:23, 29-33 P.G.P. - Bk of Abraham 3:18, 21-23.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
If I were lucifer and wanted to defraud would be Christians inventing the mormon religion would be my first step.
dynobreath 1 year ago
@dynobreath No, Lucifer first step is to have you hating other people's faith. You see, all religions are at each other's throats. That's what Lucifer is doing right now. Also, promoting hatred and criticisms. If I were Christ, I would simply love the sinners, and not the sins. Treat them with kindness and love, no matter what faith they are in.
WayneTheWriter 1 year ago
mormons are yet another interpretation, a fabrication of a fabricated story in the first place. Just another fabricated Jesus.
Outside the bible there is no evidence of the existence of Jesus.
So when considering who's wrong and right about Jesus no one really knows.
kramd1 1 year ago
@kramd1 Rubbish. There is historical records and evidence of Jesus.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 not so rubbish : ) outside the new testament there is no record of a God Jesus ie: walking n water, raising the dead, resurrection, water to wine ... or any historical or archaeological evidences of a Jesus . COULD BE a borrowed story from earlier, ancient , civilisations + is mostly pagan ie xmas tree,easter bunny. ( got to like santa tho as that's all we know )
But hey I don't begrudge your belief. I'm agnostic not atheist.
kramd1 1 year ago
Flase belief? Funny that he gives no evidence of this.
humanistheart 1 year ago
Proverbs chapter 8
HomesliceDrummer 1 year ago
does anyone know if theres anything one have to do before leaving the LDS church or you just simply leave.
cthunder1000 1 year ago
Playdo? LOL. I think he means Plat (short vowel) toe. Plato.
MrZetterlund777 1 year ago 2
@MrZetterlund777 lol, indeed, this guys a moron.
humanistheart 1 year ago
@MrZetterlund777
It is pronounced Playto, you dummy.
provis99 11 months ago
@provis99 Learn The Truth JOYOFSATAN,COM
TheSatanwarrior 10 months ago
none of what he just said has anything to do with transmigration.
cyberpsygen7 2 years ago
Good Grief, is this buffoon still around?
scubawrestler 2 years ago
leave the mormons alone they're nae hurntin anyone, "oh they got a passage wrong oh they belivev in convertin the deed" so what, want to pick on anyone just pick on the jews like everyone eles, its rather fun
badgerfecker 2 years ago
Jeremiah 1: 5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
The book of Jeremiah is wrong? There isn't a re-mortal life?
Unfortunately this guy does not know his Bible. He needs to get a real testimony and not for profit testimony.
jpggph 2 years ago 2
Since His coming would be obvious to all, Jesus warned us not to believe those who claimed to see Him in secret. (Zechariah 14:4; Matthew 24:23-27; Luke 17:23-24; 21:8; Mark 13:21-22; Rev.1:7)
This crushes the "first vision" claims of Joseph Smith.
theminimumdog 2 years ago
You can't disprove lies with lies =P
IcedPhoenix666 2 years ago
The Word of God is truth, not lies. In fact it states "let God be true and every MAN a liar."
Do some reaserch. Find truth.
theminimumdog 2 years ago
Ok... so basically, your only reason for believing in a book, is because the book itself says it's the truth?
Geez, keep the Koran away from this fellow.
Don't believe everything you read, buddy. More often than not it's donright bullshit. On the other hand, if you're already quoting the Bible left and right, it's probably too late for you anyway.
Peace be with you.
IcedPhoenix666 2 years ago
Umm, no. I believe the bible is true because of: Manuscript evidence, archeological evidence, predictive prophecy, and scientific proof for the people and places that it speaks of. Now, why don't you get back to your Mad magazine?
theminimumdog 2 years ago
Well it is common for religious folks to recurr to ad hominem. I'm used to it. If you want to have a serious discussion on the topic of religion and how it poisons humanity, just let me know. I have a lot of free time on my hands this week.
Peace be with you.
IcedPhoenix666 2 years ago
Iced-I'm sure you do. I would not waste my time having any discussion with a bitter, ignorant fool like you. Save your stupid drivel for the High times editorial page. Only an idiot would come on this YT and piss in the well like you do.
theminimumdog 2 years ago
Wow... this is the same guy who just sent me a friend request on Youtube...
And I thought I had a talker on my hands. I guess he's just another one of the bunch.
IcedPhoenix666 2 years ago
lds
Lds prophets contradict each other, and never give any prophecies. There are over 100 LDS groups.
endofus 2 years ago
" When Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).
endofus 2 years ago
He, testskriftene, if you exist. What is so special about Shawn McCraney? The guy LITERALLY believes in the account of the creation in the Bible. He believes that the earth and plants were created before the sun. Shawn McCraney is an anti-scientist and dumb as clay. Why are you so fascinated with him?
Troul478 2 years ago
The Catholic Church with all her authority decided what books made the cut in the bible and wihich ones did not.
Funny the Book of Mormon calls the bible the :"fulness of the everlasting gospel"
endofus 2 years ago
You're right it does say that it contains the fullness of the everlasting gospel. It doesn't say that God would stop revelation or that it contains everything he ever said. Amos 3:7.
1kemistry 2 years ago
Bible means a book of books. It is a collection of books. People not God decided what would be in the bible. There are other books or scrolls/writings out there written by prophets that were inspired by God that did not make the cut because the council of Nicea did not vote yes on it.
1kemistry 2 years ago
The Council of Nicea was one of twenty councils that occurred over a period of 1900 years--the last one ended in 1964-"Vatican II". It was by no careless discernment and leading of the Holy Spirit the canon, that constitutes the Bible, was established through a unanimous, God-breathed affirmation of a collection of letters and books-some of which were rejected and others retained as "helpful" to scripture-without being scriptural. Heaven-help anyone who trifles, adds or detracts to or from it.
gondolacrescent5 2 years ago
If you believe in the Catholic church then that is fine. You can't be forced to decide that those councils are wrong or that those men were not inspired by the holy spirit. It is the same thing with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We have faith in our leaders the same way. I believe the councils were mostly political, so does history.
1kemistry 2 years ago
I cannot comprehend the meaning of most of what you've written. Your last sentence, however, is constructed in such a way as to be understood and answered.
How is it that matters of dogma and strict doctrine could be interpreted as political in nature? If so, issues like Sunday Sabbath, Easter and Christmas, Virgin Birth, compilation of scripture, etc. become matters of politics? History is a matter of record--not something to be recognized or repressed according to prejudice or convenience.
gondolacrescent5 2 years ago
What do you not comprehend about what I have written? It is stated very simply.
As to to your matters of dogma and doctrine, the Catholic church was formed by Constantine not Peter, to unite his empire because of the rising popularity of Christianity. He had to mesh prior beliefs with Christianity to hold his empire together. That is what history tells us. Then again a lot of arguments can be made against any church. It just comes down to your own faith and the spirit telling you what is true.
1kemistry 2 years ago
Constantine adopted Christianity whether Christians wanted him to or not. The Church thrived during the persecutions-and continued to thrive after they were abolished. To suggest that Constantine established the offices of bishop, priests, deacons, etc (as is implied) has no historical basis. The empire assisted Christianity during and after Constantine.
You can create yarns to rationalize your defective pseudo-theology but it has no effect on established and founded history-nor The Church.
gondolacrescent5 2 years ago
STOP THE WHINING TRUESEEKER...You ask for facts & yet I have not yet seen you bring up a single one yourself. Jesus was asked if He was the king of the Jews. Jesus responded
"Sayest thou these things of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?"
Now take a deep breath & read Jesus' response over again & think about it & then think about all your complaints about His Church & stop getting your informations from the anti-websites...they are not good for your health. Go figure!
leSavaii 2 years ago
Like I've told Ramm. If it wasn't facts that brought you into mormonism, what good are facts to you? Nice comment though. I now have more respect for Ramm.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Your right, it wasnt facts that brought me into mormonism, it wasnt the fact that I was born into it that I'm active today, I was inactive basically for 3 years just confused, it wasnt until I really truly wanted to know what was true that I read Joseph Smiths first vision and couldnt stop crying, thats the only answer I needed to know that he was a true prophet and everything else just fell into place. Truthseeker, read the book of mormon, Open your heart fully to the words of God.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
A CHILD BORN BLIND...Can you imagine how Christians would criticize parents of these unfortunate children...if Christ would've put the blame on the parents? Perhaps something went wrong during the nine months in his mother's womb but not the spirit sent from God.
Of course there is life before we were born. But Shawn doesnt want to preach that 'cause only Mormons preach such doctrine & yet most Christians often wanting to "go back to God the Father" Were we with Him before? Of course we were!
leSavaii 2 years ago
well if you said there was life before we were born then it must be true.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
TRUTHSEEKER "well if you said there was life before we were born then it must be true."
Thank you...it is true. We lived with our Heavenly Father before we were born. He is the Father of our spirits & without our spirits we're dead & useless "For a body without a spirit is dead.." (JAMES.2:26)
leSavaii 2 years ago
Nice verse, but its a bit different than my Bible. My Bible says 'wihout THE spirit'. Why is this significant? Hmmm, the Bible often refers to some spirit thingy a lot. I wonder if that is the spirit it is referring to. Maybe reading before the verse helps..Plus, I must have missed the verse that says we existed with God before we were born. I'd like to see that one
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Wasnt it this video I posted a bunch of verses that pointed to a pre existence with god? Go look for them.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
And I replied to them. Go look for it.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
.
Remember Christians, the will of God is no Catholic, Protestant,Orthodox, Penticostal, Adventist, JW, Mormon Etc. NO DIVISION, Only Christians, holy, helping and sharing instead of buying and selling.
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:9-21)
.
conceil8 2 years ago
And in response to this video.
Rev 12:7-war in heaven
Job 38:7 who are the sons of god?
Luke 10:18 Satan falling from heaven.
Romans 11:2
Ephesians 1:4
2 thesselonians 2:13
2 Timothy 1:9
The list can keep going and going, how can what is said in these verses happen to those people if they didnt already exist or "pre-exist"?
Shawn once again contradicts the Bible, yet people still listen to him, why? Do they really hate the mormon people and take anything they can get to try to destroy them?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Angles are sons of God. Show us a verse where it says YOU knew God before you were born, rather than God knowing us. They are examples of God knowing the beginning to the end. My hate is only reserved for deception and false teachings, not the people that believe it. I lived my whole life in the heart of mormon ville. I have friends and family that are mormon.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
So what youre saying is we just poofed out of nowere but god knew that we were going to poof out of nowere and be people and before those who are like moses and abraham and even JESUS god already assigned them to be like how they were before they poofed into existence, we didnt even exist before we were born right? Thats what youre saying, good mix of atheism and scientology into your religion, I wouldnt go around claiming to be a christian if i were you, no wonder youre seeking truth lol =P
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
I hate to bring the news to you, but that is what Christians believe. You may not like the idea we never pre-existed as 'gods' before being born on Earth, but then again, mormonism appeals to those who choose to believe what they 'feel' is right. Even if one could prove we did pre-exist, it still doesn't prove mormonism. Finding support for mormon theology doesn't prove mormonism. Mormonism is based on the word of J.S. and events from the BOM. Mormon theology itself is nothing new.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
What you are implying is you believe all beings have always been and always will be....just like God, right? You think the Bible teaches that? Or is that more new age doctrine?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
I believe God created all beings and that we are all Gods children, I'm sorry if your religion doesnt believe that but can you give me biblical proof that its not the case? That we just poofed out of nowere?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
We aren't all God's children. Only direct creations of God are God's children (I.e. angles, Adam, Jesus). You are a child of man, or son of man. It is not until you are born again that you 'earn the right to BECOME a son of God' and become a new creation. John 1:12. You are then 'adopted'. Romans 8:15-17; Galatians 4:5-7, Ephesians 1:5
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
So youre saying that god only accepts those who take Christs name? What happens to all those people in the world who have never even heard the name Jesus Christ? Are they damned or not children of god because they havent been born again?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
What happens to those who have never heard? Pay special attention to the first one
Romans 1:19-20
Ecclesiastes 3:11
Psalms 19:1-4
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
One of my personal favorites.
Jeremiah1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
1kemistry 2 years ago
@1kemistry
One of mine too. It describes how God see's the beginning to the end, or exists outside of time. Notice it doesn't say HE NEW GOD before he was born.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Different opinion on scripture... another reason god gives the world prophets and the spirit.
1kemistry 2 years ago
@1kemistry
Ya, it's just too bad Christian belief starts in the Bible, and mormon belief starts with mormon theology, then gets justified by cherry picking single verses. The main mormon theme is the same: You would believe in a pre-existence even if that verse didn't exist yes?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
@1kemistry
Basically it doesn't matter what is or isn't in the Bible to a mormon from my many years of living amongst them, and looking at mormon theology. What does matter to a mormon is what is written the other three books of mormon doctrine. Amazingly very little comes out of the BOM when it comes to mormon theology.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
You are right on many points. The Bible for us is not the beginning and the end. God is. He has been the same since the beginning. He calls prophets. The prophets teach the people and write the scripture( that is how the bible was written by the way). LDS believe he still calls prophets to guide us. Scripture is still being written. We would have the same beliefs and doctrine even if we didn't have the bible although it goes hand in hand with our doctrine as well. Believe me. I actually read it.
1kemistry 2 years ago
Mormon theology contradicts the Bible completely. I'd say DONT believe me, find out for yourself, but there aint no convincin' someone who doesn't wanna be convinced. All mormons follow desire for truth.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
if you dont believe this then why did you convert back shawn?
carguy12345678910 2 years ago
convert back to what? Mormonism?
MereMessenger 2 years ago
Did he really convert back to mormonism? Haha, if so he's got a lot of repenting to do.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
No lol Shawn did not convert back
watch?v=4Y6js9xDXJ0&feature=related
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
How can being born blind glorify God?
FunNotNuts 2 years ago
The healing of that situation would glorify God for one. God is trying to demonstrate to us that while we are spiritually dead bc of the fall and sin of Adam and all his childre. Along with that, he is trying to demonstrate that we are also spiritually blind, but in the gospels he used physical pictures. So again and again you see Jesis healing blind people and that really points to a bigger spiritual reality that yes, through Jesus we can be made whole, but we need to be born again. See God.
john146only 2 years ago
I know the church is true, i know Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, i know Thomas S Monson is the True Prophet of God, I know that Jesus Died and rose again For us, I know the Book Of Mormon To Be The Word of God, In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen!
Hi Shawn, just thought id write you my testimony to inspire you or piss you off!
Tanera619 2 years ago
how do you know?
Fartloading6Fartload 2 years ago
The J-dubs KNOW their religion is true. The Muslims KNOW theirs is true too. Giving your automatron mormon testimony about how you 'know' it's true is not a testimony. Real testimonies are about actual events where a complete change of heart has happened, something we can all witness, instead of just taking your word for it.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
If my life is changed, and millions of lives are changed, that is something "we can all witness". And you don't need to take my word for it.
unirrational 2 years ago
I live in the heart of Mormon Utah, and I have observed no real spiritual change you imply among mormons, certainly nothing compared to a reborn Christian. Doesn't even scratch the surface. Automatron testimonies regarding how one 'knows' the BOM is true, and J.S. was a true prophet is some pretty weak sauce. I've witnessed 100x more elsewhere.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Interesting...I live in a heavy Evangelical area and would say the same thing about them. Sadly, I think you are probably right about some LDS who just go through the motions. However, that has no bearing on the validity of the message they take too lightly.
I don't know what you would consider strong sauce, but I've witnessed hundreds of LDS who have turned their lives around and live lives of service.
I DO agree with you on your premise though. We are known by our fruits.
unirrational 2 years ago
What the Bible is really referring to isn't helping old ladies across the street when referring to fruits. It's referring to teaching and following the word of God, rather than following false prophets and their doctrines.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Actually, Jesus explains how to discern false prophets (teachers) from true ones. The Bible (Word of God in your theology?) wasn't even around when the Lord explained this.
The fruits are our (their) deeds (see context).
That's why I haven't called you a "narrow minded fool" yet. (GRIN)
unirrational 2 years ago
And you're the one in the cult. Whatever dude, enjoy your expectations to be like God. If you haven't seen mormonism for what it is by now, facts aren't what got you into it, so why would facts get you out.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
I had hoped that you would have seen my teasing personality in my response. I had and have no animosity towards you.
I'm sorry you are so filled with hatred towards things I hold to be sacred. The Holy Spirit has testified to my soul that they are true. May God bless you in your more righteous pursuits.
unirrational 2 years ago
I have no hatred towards you, I have hatred towards deception.
I am sorry you think your feelings are the Holy Spirit and a fulcrum for truth.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Who said anything about my feelings?
unirrational 2 years ago
Also, see John 14-16. The Spirit IS the way we understand truth. Not from the preconceptions and false doctrines and false witnesses of men.
unirrational 2 years ago
Absolutely the spirit is what reveals truth. There are many who think they are guided by the spirit who are not. What is your point?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Mormons are a cult, the definition of a cult is someone who follows a single being, that being is Jesus Christ. =) Try to get a new argument or thing to call LDS people, cult is more of a compliment.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Nice try. There are many earmarks to a cult, one of them being ruled by a single human leader, not a single 'being'. That one and the rest of them are hardly compliments.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Haha, well lets take a look at Moses, he led the Jews in the desert for 40 years, 40 friggen years, did he lead a cult or did he do gods will?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
I wouldn't define a cult by one earmark alone, so no, Moses was not leading a cult.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Oh, well whats the difference between that and Joseph Smith? Youre just selective =P haha.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Now you are comparing Moses to J.S.? Is that a joke? J.S. and mormonism adhere to many cult earmarks. There were plenty of reasons to believe Moses, as they could see with their own eyes. With Smith, I think the only thing anyone actually saw was him sneaking out of homes zipping his pants up.
P.S. Moses wrote how to determine a real prophet, of which Smith fails.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
1, many people have seen Smith do miricles, not as dramatic as moses. And give 10 examples of how Joseph Smith failed?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Some people are easily convinced, especially if it appeals to their desires. If you want to know how he failed, its not hard to find.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
People have come up to me saying this is how he failed and are blind to how he succeeded, you should go look that up rather than trying to focus on the bad. No matter what people are going to disagree and criticize JS and say this is how it happend, this is what he did, but they dont get the whole story, its just an opinion. Believe me, I wasnt easily convinced, I hit rock bottom in my life before I really found out the truth which brought me up. Read the Book of Mormon and pray about it.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
that is because those people are aware of the biblical test of a prophet. Guess what, you don't need 10, you only need one prophetic failure. I am certainly aware of how Smith succeeded, especially in freemasonry. I don't need to pray about the BOM. The real word of God already exposes it as fiction. I am happy you are not at rock bottom anymore, but getting lifted from there is not an indication of truth.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
In a sense youre right, give 1 prophetic failure that Joseph Smith had and do your own research on it, promise somewere it will say it came true as opposed to somewere else it saying it never happened. The Bible never proves the Book of Mormon as fiction, the bible tells you how to test things like the book of mormon to know if its true or not, the book of mormon testafies that Christ is the savior of the world just as the bible does, if you read it you would know that for yourself too.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Not 'in a sense', it is what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't even need to prove the BOM as fiction. If I wanted to prove Harry Potter as non-fictional I would get the same results. The BOM can say anything it wants. What the BOM says has little to do with mormon theology anyway. 90% of mormon theology comes out of the DOC and POGP. Believe what you want. I will continue to expose it for those who care about the truth, instead of their own truth.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Show me were the Book of Mormon is proved false by the Bible? And if you knew mormon theology you would know that the doctrine is in the bible and the book of mormon, not 90 percent of it is in the D&C haha, way to make yourself look dumb.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
It wasn't what you were shown that got you into mormonism, so why would showing you anything make a difference now? I have a feeling you don't know much about your own theology, let alone the Bible. If it were truth you were after, you wouldn't need to be shown.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
And I have a feeling you dont have anything to back up your statment that I cant shoot down, I know a lot about Mormon theology and probably a lot more about the Bible than you do. If it were truth that you had you would share it.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Mormonism is one of the easiest to expose, because their theology is highly gnostic and pagan, so there is plenty to back up. You don't need to get it from me. All the information you NEED is very easy to find. A lot of cultists want to stay cultists no matter what you show them, and this is what I sense with you, so keep holding your head high, because you just KNOW J.S. was a true prophet and the BOM is true, right?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
And at the same time Mormonism is the easiest to back up using the Bible, all the information needed is in there. Believe me, if you knew me personally you would know that if I found something wrong with something I would leave it in a heart beat, find something wrong with mormonism that contradicts something in the bible that I cant use something else from the bible to contradict what you said.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Mormonism backed by the Bible? Your joking again aren't you.
Of course you can. When viewing the Bible through cult colored glasses (in your case mormonism), there are always little verses here and there that seem to support it.
It's called FITTING THE TEXT TO YOUR BELIEFS, instead of FITTING YOUR BELIEFS TO THE TEXT.
If you died today where would you go?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Haha, you only think im joking cause I'm sure theres things that you have missed in the Bible. Who ever said I was fitting the text for my beliefs, what about your beliefs?
If you want to start turning this into a Bible bash on mormonism bring it on, I guarantee I will win.
When I die, I believe I will go to paradise based on based on what Christ says to the robber here in Luke 23:43. Today you will be with me in paradise, Christ didnt go to his father in heaven for the 3 days he was gone.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
"I guarantee I will win."
Your pride says a lot. If you are a winner in your own mind, it doesn't matter who loses. The typical mormon view of the Bible has doubt, and that the BOM is above it (also a cult earmark), so here again what would be the point? There are tons of videos on youtube that spank morminism to the ground. If you haven't listened to them, why would you listen to me? You see why I am reluctant. Your confidence doesn't represent truth either.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
My confidence is that I know more about the bible than you do. I never said that the Bible has doubt and any educated mormon on mormon history or the book of mormon knows at least 2 things, theres a verse in the book of mormon saying basically this book is for the purpose that you might believe the other book (book of mormon building up the bible)
And also a revelation to joseph smith about the book of mormon not destroying the bible but building it up.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
A 19 year old mormon that knows the Bible? This is some good stuff. Shouldn't you be on a mission right now 'earning' your way into heaven? Earlier you said you knew you were going to heaven. Based on what?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
No, I said I believe I was going to a place called Paradise based on what christ said to the robber while he was on the cross. So what, i'm 19 and not on a mission, its a step personally I dont feel ready for at the moment ;) And we dont earn our way into heaven, thats a false concept that people assume.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
So you are not ready, cool. Earning your way into heaven is also a cult earmark ;), and can unfortunately be shown as mormon theology through your own historical documents and professions of mormons today. If it isn't what you believe, fine, but although salvation by grace is often quoted, it's not what is taught, and you should know this. After all, what is the point to being a mormon if by grace alone?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Well is the grace the fact that you are just saved bottom line? You accept christ and youre saved? I can accept Christ and break all the commandments I want but I'm still saved by the grace of God? Or is the grace of God that he sent his son to die for our sins and its up to us if we want to live our lives according to keeping the commandments. Surely god wont save you just because, you do have to do something. Matthew 19:16-17.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
My friend, you already break all the commandments. SALVATION is through grace and grace alone. When one is BORN AGAIN they become a new creation and find no joy in unrighteousness, though they remain so. In mormon theology, they more or less believe Christ is their ressurector, where you go after is based on your works. In a sense, you are your own savior. YOU DON"T KNOW JESUS.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
So what you are saying is even after one is saved or "Born Again" its okay to go out and kill a bunch of people, commit adultry, steal, worship other gods and idols because by the grace of god youre already saved right? Doesnt sound like that would be found in the bible =/
I am reminded of when one man asked Christ how to inheret the kingdom of god and christ said keep the commandments.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Anyone who is born again and receives the spirit has Christ inside of them Galatians 2:20. and the spirit John 14:16-17
2 Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would
No one is righteous, but those saved despise their own unrighteousness.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Yea, mormons teach the born again doctrine because its in the bible, unless a man is born of the water and of the spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom of god-John 3:5. I'm just going to stop commenting, this is my last one, just request a book called Gospel Principles. Read the book of mormon, and then read the gospel principles book. Then you will know first hand what mormons really believe.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
I know what the principles of the gospel are already. I can read it in the Bible. Certainly not in books written by men such as your 'gospel principles book'
As far as reading the BOM, I don't usually read fiction.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Well, I know I said that the other comment was going to be my last one. but as long as you keep saying negative things I should correct you.
How is the Book of Mormon fiction? Because Shawn McCraney says so and he used to be mormon so he knows all of everything? Lack of evidence? How do you know the Bible is so true?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Facts buddy, facts. Facts are how I know the Bible is SO true, and that the BOM is fiction. Looking for truth in the Bible I got 10x what I needed to be convinced. BOM still at 0
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
One more comment regarding evidence. I'm sure going to believe a collection of books penned by over 40 men and women of different times, ethnic backgrounds, and professions all over a 2000 year period, referring to actual places on Earth that exist today, in languages that exist today, than the word of one man. Just like mormons, Muslims are taking the word of ONE guy as well. It's a sad thing. I think the Koran does a better job though of not defeating itself as much as the BOM.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Well ya know, its a well known fact that there are over like, 20 books that are mentioned in the bible that arent in the bible at all, and if you need evidence to know that something is true, youre a sign seeker and in christs words found in the bible. Sign seekers are adulterous and perverts.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Typical mormon anti-Biblical spew. Maybe your 'prophet' J.S. should have found the golden plates to the supposed 'missing books' from the Bible as well. He did after all, claim the BOM to be the fullness of the gospel. Just because books are mentioned in the Bible, does not mean they are the word of God. The books weren't missing, they were just never added.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
And why was the decision to never add them? Were they not important enough to go into the Bible? The words of God are the words of god, they are important and everlasting and who is to decide that the words in the bible are the only words of god?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
And the gospel principles book is a book on what mormons really believe giving book of mormon and bible refrences to support the beliefs thats why I suggested it, if you want to be ignoant and just assume mormons believe something than whatever, its obvious you just have a hate towards everything mormon without an understanding of anything mormon.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
I don't have to be ignorant. Using the D & C and POGP alone is enough, not to mention I've lived in the heart of mormonville my whole life, have mormon friends, and mormon family, for 36 years now. I now mormonism resembles secret societies in many ways, but what mormons believe has been no secret. Especially the mormons that realize the truth about it and discuss it with me. These people including Shawn went on missions, but a 19 year old guy from Oregon knows better....ok man.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
With how much mormon teachings change over time, how can one really keep track? Mormonism of today is trying to look more and more Christian, preaching double talk of salvation through grace, but then works too. I'm not sure you even really know what to believe, other than 'in mormonism'.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
With how much mormon teachings change over time? Lets look at "christian" teachings, there was one single true church, christs church back in the day that Christ set up, over a course of 2009 years humanity has had time to screw it up, why are there so many different beilefs among "christians" who claim the same thing? Why are there so many different religions based on and claiming to be the one Christ established? Which one is really true?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Remember those fundamentals I showed you? Real Christianity is the church. The body of believers. The ones that are truly born again, containing the spirit of the Lord. The prideless. There are slight variations of beliefs in many religions, but it's those fundamentals that count, that have never been lost. When the variations become severe enough, then they can be damning.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Ahh, but you contradict a typical verse used against mormons found in the book of Galatians with the slight variations on the basic fundamentals of Christianity, doing something slightly different from what Christ says you should do is perverting the gospel. Good job at owning yourself, go sit in the corner.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
SO TRUESEEKER..You prefer reading the Holy Bible written by men who were inspired by God; translated & compiled by men who were not inspired by God?God knows how many books these guys threw away from being included in the Bible, & God knows how many "plain and precious things taken away from the book (Bible) Which is the book of the Lamb of God" (1NEPHI.13:28)Go figure
If you are stranded out in a rain-forest darkest nite by yourself, Would you rather drive a vehicle with ONE or TWO+ Headlites?
leSavaii 2 years ago
A verse in the BOM discrediting the Bible...go figure. How accurate, or what is or isn't missing from the Bible can be researched, just like the source of your 'new age' theology.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
So go research the book of the words of the lord and what not, read and point out every verse that talks about a book not in the bible and research it, but how will you know that your research on that book leads you to the real thing instead of something some guy just made up?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
RAMM "Yea, mormons teach the born again doctrine because its in the bible"
When did the Protestants (Born again) Christians ever had a Bible? When they left the Pope & the Catholics they took with them the Catholic Bible, the Catholic robes, collars & the Catholic cross, etc. FYI, Protestant Christians are still dwelling on Catholic beliefs & doctrines. The only Protestant Church that practice baptism by immersion is the Baptist Church the rest with water-drops & lately changed. Go figure
leSavaii 2 years ago
So apparent flaws in other religions are how you justify your own?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
I guess you missed my point earlier brutha. If you have ever hated, as Jesus said, you have committed murder in your heart already. If you have ever looked at a woman in lust, you have committed adultery. Jesus said if you love him you will keep his commandments, and this is true. Any born again Christian I know went to sinning less. Much less. Your sin will not get you to hell, just as your works wont get you to heaven.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
I've discussed with many mormons and I am very aware of the verses mormons use to justify their cult. As far as my beliefs, they are Biblical only, and certainly not to support an institutionalized religion/cult. If the Bible backed up mormonism, or if mormonism actually had legs to stand on, and represented truth, I'd be one, but it's not worth my soul to be part of the sub masonic brotherhood.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Well, thats the great thing about the book of mormon and the bible is the LDS editions have whats called foot notes, were you can cross refrence were in the book of mormon its talking about the same thing in the bible and were in the bible its talking about the same thing in the book of mormon. Haha, you really dont know what you are talking about, just stop commenting back already your points are blind and so are you to the truth.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
When you say Bible you really mean the J.S. Translation yes? That's the great thing about the mormon Bible. It includes annotations of Joseph Smith's version haha. Just like your 'prophet' Hinckley once said. The god/s you believe in are not the same as the Christian God. I've got a live account if you want to talk about it.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
No, the LDS church doesnt even own the rights to the JS translation nor use them in everyday life in Bible study because of that fact.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
So J.S. Translation annotations are not included in your 'King James' bibles?
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Theres annotations that are there were you can turn here in the JS translation and see what that says but the text is not combined with the standard books of the bible so to answer your question yes and no.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Of course. By NOT combining them or replacing the text mormonism can have the best of both worlds, or have their cake and eat it too. They can appear Christian to the rest of the world by claiming to use the 'King James' version, but have their altered text as well.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Well now let me ask what it means to be a Christian? Be specific in detail on this one.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
In short a Christian is someone who 'belongs to Christ'. That means giving your life over to Christ and accept his sacrifice as your key to the door of salvation. Different gospels that preach works for salvation means you do not accept this, you are your own savior and have no relationship with Christ. Anyone can put the name of Jesus in their title.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Christianity has always adhered to these fndamentals (and it can be proven Biblically/historicly). If even one is missing, you are counterfeit.
#1 - The Bible as the true infallible word of God and the only authority concerning spiritual matters.
#2 Jesus as God in the flesh that dwelt among us.
#3 Christs death on the cross as a free gift for salvation, and not by works, for those who want to receive it.
#4 Jesus was born of a virgin.
#5 The physical and bodily resurection of Christ.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Haha, 2 of those fundamentals are just absurd, 1 and 3.
#1, its a well known fact that there were Christians before the Bible was even composed and even before Christ was born, the bible is true as long as its translated correctly, meaning no verses missing, no doctrines missing no doctrines added and so forth. The Jehovahs Witness bible I dont see as the word of god or a bible because its missing scriptures.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Christians (followers of Christ) before Christ? There were Christians before the NT was canonized yes. The OT was already there. I agree with you regarding the J-dubs.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Christs death on the cross was a free gift for salvation yes and no, its not, I'm gonna die so that you can get off scotch free, you still do have to repent. James 2 says faith without works is dead, you can find in the book of revelation it saying judged according by their works, if you commit a sin, you have to repent!
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Repentance follows salvation.Yes it is true faith without works is dead. It says nothing regarding a requirement for salvation. Works also follow salvation, but not because they are required. A person saved now has the spirit. They work because it invokes them to do so. The works I do are not because I think I am getting a reward. I deserve no reward. Thank God for grace!
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
So what youre saying is that if youre saved you can break the commandments and still be saved.Thats showing how much you dont love God, and contradicting to when the man asked Christ how to inherit the kingdom of god and christ replied keep the commandments.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
What Christians are not are polytheists (mother gods and multi gods is completely pagan),or people who believe they can become like God. Early pseudo Christian groups were the gnostics, who put man at the level of God or the deity in man, and the Arians, who take the deity away from Christ.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
So youre contradicting the verse in either Hebrews or Corinthians talking about us being heirs of god and if heirs co heirs of christ, if youre an heir, that means you get what someone has, what does god have? Everything =) Contradict the bible more with your religions teachings, youre easy to pick apart =P
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Like I said before. You can argue all you want, 'prove' your points all you want, but THE mormon religion is based on the word of J.S. and the events of the BOM. That is really where you should start.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
You could very well start there, the LDS religion teaches as much from the Book of Mormon as it does the Bible. If you had both of them and read both of them you could cross refrence perfectly were the doctrine is said in one book and were it is in the other. They work great togeather to make you understand more that Jesus Christ is the savior.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
"You could very well start there, the LDS religion teaches as much from the Book of Mormon as it does the Bible"
I would have to agree to a point with this. They use the BOM and the Bible very little. It's a truth by inspiration type belief, so telling of Sally's miracle would be a conviction of truth long before any silly words from the Bible would.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
Let me throw one more list of 5 in. These are signs of a cult
#1 - Preach good works for salvation (works are needed to keep a cult alive)
#2 - Single human leader/entity usually claiming high authority
#3 - Extra Biblical text that are over the Bible in authority or correctness.
#4 - Teach a different Jesus/Gospel
#5 - Use pressure tactics to keep people in (only two kinds go to hell in mormonism? Murderes and mormon apostates)
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
So salvation comes by doing bad things?
Christianity would be a cult because if you think about it Jesus claimed to be the son of God, thats pretty high in authority
Whoever said that the Book of Mormon is over the Bible? Are you saying that a bible that has the entire doctrine about homosexuality and women taken out of it is still a correct bible?
Whoever said Mormonism teaches a different gospel? In a sense a different Jesus because he's not looked at as being God the Father or equal to.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
Your own BOM says it is higher than the Bible as the 'most correct book on earth', and then goes on to demean the Bible as it is believed to be the word of God 'as long as it is translated correctly'. Did J.S. approve of the Bible? I think not since he was working on his own translation. I have lived in Utah my whole life. I know the mormon attitude towards the Bible ;)
Mormonism does teach a different gospel.
truthseeker1973 2 years ago
You see, you summarize the Bible as if all Bibles are the word of god, if theres a bible out there thats missing doctrines is it still a correct bible?
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
See, the thing about the phrase as long as it is translated correctly, a Bible that is missing a doctrine is not translated correctly and is not a bible in my mind.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago
And lastly, if you knew anything about mormonism you would know that pressure doesnt have any thing to do with staying in. I stopped going for quite a long time and there was no pressure to go back, but when I finally did I was still accepted. Do more research or get a better argument. Its obvious you just accuse based on others opinions and things others have said, go seek the truth rather than listen to peoples opinions. Im done with you, youre easy.
Rammiumptum 2 years ago