Reply to a teabagger

[bbender1986]

comming from a WHITE rasta knappy headed poor dude.. are you against cleaning and soap jesus christ what is that brown shit on your wall and gods sakes i can see more grease on your face through the distorted camera so i can't imagine how it would glow with just pure self inflicted pizza grease..so lets all listen to your views..your obvously a real winner....what you work in a record store and lee is a lawyer..wow top notch.

[glramer2007]

You are a moron.

[DS1circle]

Hmmm...I guess hippies can make a good point, but hey man, real cool daddio, like...peace...love...and everythings groovy. A conservative/cognitive what?  Yeah, I'm a right winger and absolutely insane. Craaaaazy man. Dig it?

[jtoon200]

Stopped watching at the attacks on his appearance. It's the usual mark of a flawed argument. Congrats,15 seconds.

[Celephais42]

Ah finally, somebody who's going to make a valid point. Yes, I pulled out the ad-hominem attacks first.

Why? For the entertainment of my subs. And I was gentle compared to what I've heard some of them say.

you should check out beyond 15 seconds, because hey, thats the ONLY time its in there. Meanwhile it looks like your buddies commenting here are incapable of anything BUT ad-homs

[jtoon200]

That'd probably be because they're 13 years old.

[Celephais42]

I don't know if you mean my subs or the responders here, but I am afraid you are incorrect on both counts. I know my subs to be predominantly 20 somethings, and having been checking the ages of my responders here and know that most of them are well over 10 years my senior. Strangely its another 20 something who appears capable of rational discourse, so I would like to return to discussion to topic and carry on with you about it.

[jtoon200]

Quick question, were you telling Bush protestors to shut up and go home because they lost?

A government option is not any sort of free market solution to anything. A public option would be essentially a poorly run corporation with an unlimited amount of money. In the end you'd still get a healthy dose of rationed care and waiting lists. Also, many corporate type's only source of income are the bonuses. They take large bonuses in lieu of standard pay.

[Celephais42]

There are a few differences on the Bush issue. Bush was Supreme court appointed, instead of overwhelmingly elected. Bush engaged in an illegal war through deceptive means. Bush protest didn't start until after beating up the war-drum for the illegal war through deceptive means.

If a government option is just going to be a poorly run corporation, then according to that theory it should be no problem for private insurance companies to continue as they are. The problem with the bonuses is (cont)

[Celephais42]

that they are based on quarterly profits and too often, cooked books. The long term interests of the stockholders and employees ( or the company as a whole) are neglected for large short term profits. This creates bubble economies and is no way to conduct long term sustainable business. The very nature of this model is what ended up making the government bailouts necessary, when a little regulation would have resulted in better long term health of a company.

[jtoon200]

Obama is ramming it down people's throats whether you want it or not, sure Bush did the same thing, I was never a supporter of him either. Not to mention Obama throwing out his timeframe to pull out of the Middle East, just like Bush. But we're having politicians literally say that they don't care what their constituents want.

If a corporation kept it's books like the government, they'd be out of business or have the IRS on them. (cont)

[jtoon200]

But that isn't the point, a government run company has infinite money. Competing against someone with infinite money is like trying to fly by flapping your arms really fast, you're going to fail every time.

On the bonuses, if that's how they want to do business let them. Then they'll fail and be replaced by someone else who can do it better. It's a much better plan in the long term as it doesn't reward bad management, although there will be job loss in the short term.

[Celephais42]

Obama is ramming it down people's throats because... we voted him on the issues, and that was one of them. The majority of Americans think some kind of reform is necessary. IF the government healthcare is rationed and a waiting game, then that should provide insurance companies valid ground for competition. And on bonuses, the execs were getting rewarded for bad management, and yet it is the employees who actually end up suffering. But we're jumping on three separate issues, let's focus one.

[jtoon200]

Of course the rationing and waiting for healthcare would only start when all the other insurance companies are run out of town. Not to mention the public option might just get shot down once implemented anyway because some doctors won't take government insurance. It takes far too long for them to get paid by medicare/medicaid if at all. We're in debt to our ears, we have no room to be taking risks. Many people who voted for him didn't even know his stance on issues. They only knew he was "cool".

[Celephais42]

You are arguing that a government option would be inefficient, and yet the private sector wouldn't be able to compete. And yet I haven't seen this occur with the mail and package delivery companies. UPS and Fedex do quite well.. what has you thinking private health insurance companies wouldn't be able to compete? I see a lot of conjecture, maybes and mights, but this does not fit with historical models, nor does it fit with other models of government healthcare in other nations. Talk debt later

[jtoon200]

Because it is a lot of maybes and mights. There's no telling what will happen, I'm just going over possible scenarios. The post office and the private companies handle different things. UPS and Fedex handle packages while the USPS primarily handles letters which are quickly becoming obsolete. While the healthcare insurance industry will have to compete directly. There are less expensive and less market skewing options.

[Celephais42]

Private insurance companies wouldn't necessarily have to directly compete though. In other countries that have far more socialized healthcare than even the public option would be ( I think this example was Sweden) private, for profit insurance companies exist by providing some of the "luxuries" for people getting care while the "socialized" care is just the basics. If we as a nation could afford full out single payer healthcare insurance companies would still survive and profit using that model.

[jtoon200]

Sorry it's taken so long to respond, I've been preoccupied. That means is you're pushing out the private companies, forcing them to lay off workers. Only the rich would be able to afford that kind of thing due to the increased taxes of having a socialized system so the private companies would have to downscale. But I've done some thinking and I'd be able to live with a public option if it were only for the poor (under 30k) and only covered emergency care.

[Celephais42]

No problem on the response time. We all have stuff to do IRL. Yeah it does mean they'd likely have to lay off workers. I live in Detroit, don't expect me to have sympathy for people whose job was only to pay for health care for people who had been paying them for the insurance. Oh and deny those people who had been paying in at any chance they can. I dunno if you've checked how fast HI premiums are going up, but at current rates only the rich will be able to afford it before long anyway. (cont)

[Celephais42]

This emergency care thing is counter-productive. Here's what I mean: Person X makes under 30k and begins to feel ill. Person X is uninsured, and can't be treated under the above proposed public option until near death. This near death moment comes, and Person X is treated for advanced colon cancer. Person X lives, but the overall cost is much higher than it would have been had it been caught and treated early. The problem with the above scenario is that it already happens now. (cont)

[Celephais42]

Person X goes to the hospital near death and gets treated. Person X can't afford the bill so it goes unpaid. Hospitals recoup these costs by raising the rates on everyone else, especially insurance companies. We're paying for it already when we pay our insurance premiums, but we're paying for costly near death treatments when preventative treatments that even poor, but insured, people could afford would cost less. An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

[jtoon200]

You do have a point there, but I was thinking more along the lines of accidents. My mother recently broke her leg and racked up 15 grand worth of medical bills. That's half a year's salary for someone that's poor. Luckily she's insured. With the uninsured person with colon cancer, they'd probably end up on medicaid. At least with the emergency coverage he'd have paid for some of the cost already. I have another question for you that I'll post in the next comment.

[jtoon200]

What's your take on having people pay for emergency rescue? Not like a simple ambulance run, but if they were doing something reckless like extreme sports or going into the wilderness unprepared which required a search-and-rescue team.

[Celephais42]

Sometimes shit happens. I would say that if it was truly an accidental situation where preparations had been made but were inadequate for circumstances then just let it go. But if there was true negligence, make them pay, do some community service or something. Don't get me wrong. While I am firmly on the liberal side of this issue (healthcare), I'm more a moderate overall. I think people should be responsible for themselves, however, I don't think this should mean there is no social safety net

[jtoon200]

I just read a story about how small areas with expansive wilderness are losing money due to tourists coming in and doing extreme sports. They end up needing to be rescued and the local governments can't keep up the funding for it. I think a safety net is just fine, but when people on the safety net can live like they do when they're off it, it goes too far. I also like the idea of Health Savings Accounts, which are untaxable, and encourage sort of shopping for a doctor.

[Celephais42]

I'm not opposed to HSAs the problem with them though is that in my area one would have to be making at least my wages to be able to have money left over after all of the bills, buying food and putting gas in the car. And I'm making $5/hr more than the minimum wage. In the state with the highest unemployment rate in the country HSAs could be part of the solution, but they aren't the full solution.

[jtoon200]

Right now I think getting employment up is a higher priority than healthcare. Getting an HSA through your employer would be a huge help to lower wage workers though. The employer puts a bit into the account every so often and it starts to add up. Lower wage workers are usually young and healthy, so they'll have the money to pay for care when they actually need it later in life. As opposed to getting into the broken insurance system.

[Celephais42]

Let me think about this a bit before I give a response.

[jtoon200]

Alright.

[Celephais42]

OK, so the HSAs aren't a bad idea, as long as, as mentioned above, there is some sort of emergency care in place for these usually young and healthy lower wage workers. Employment rates and healthcare should be hand in hand issues, as easing the healthcare issue can reduce some strain on business. All in all, I'd say we're still screwed unless we move away from Friedman's monetarism, which has failed in every country it was implemented, the US being the final nail in the coffin.

[jtoon200]

I'm not familiar with Friedman monetarism so I won't make a comment on that. All I know is that it's to keep inflation in check. And if that's the case, we aren't even using it since we're cranking billions of dollars off the presses. I prefer the gold standard, simple and easy to manage.

[Celephais42]

This is true, we did revert to the Keynesian model for the bailout that we used to get out of the Great Depression and was used until Reagan came into office. However, that is just a temporary switch for the moment. Had we maintained the Sherman Anti-Trust laws we never would have had these companies that were too big to fail, and big enough that -A- department of -A- company could cause a worldwide economic regression. And while I agree on the gold standard this wouldn't be wise to

[Celephais42]

implement until we are back to economic stability, if the history around the Depression has any relevance.

[jtoon200]

Sherman Anti-Trust allows monopolies to exist if they can "do it", whatever "it" may be, better than their competition. I would've preferred to see the too-big-to-fails crumble. I know what you mean about the gold standard. If it were reimplemented today I'd be the first in line at the bank for my gold. In the news today I felt sick, they want to fine people who don't have health insurance. If that passes, people who can't afford it in the first place are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[hkct45]

HUH HUH HUH...OK Beavis.

Take a shower.

[Celephais42]

It's funny that there has yet to be a response that actually deconstructs any of the points that I have made, just sweeping generalizations and in this case ad hominem attacks.

Are you a troll, or is the video really that far over your head?

Oh I get it.. you're an O'Reilly fan. And probably Limbaugh and maybe you're even nuts enough for Beck. So... both.

Anyway, I'm sure you might be ready for a rational conversation when you ease up over being butt-hurt about losing the election.

[hkct45]

That's because all that comes out of your overly doped-up mouth is nothing but jibberish.

And you don't generalize??? Give me a break.

Far over my head...BWAHAHAHHAHA

If your ratty headed smelly hippy ass tried to get a job at my firm, you would get turned away and your resume shredded.

It's a good thing that the Burger King grease covers up your odor.

Your health care WILL NOT be covered with my tax dollars loser.

[Celephais42]

Ah jeez thats original. I've got dreadlocks so I've gotta be a pot head, and I MUST have gotten them the so-called "natural" (disgusting) way of not cleaning my hair. More ad-homs, and nothing. Nothing because I am gainfully employed in an anodizing plant, putting the metal finishing on products you likely use. This job requires random drug testing, because I coat parts used in commercial airplanes, and so am subject to FAA drug-free requirements. Oh... and I get BCBS through my job. Try again

[hkct45]

NOW THAT'S SCARY!!

Do you make parts for Air France?

If you are so friggin smart whay do you have such a menial job?

And how are you going to feel if your savior has his way with his health care plan?

Your company will have to switch to it or get penalized, your BCBS (GREAT PLAN) will be no more, you will get a SHIT plan, and your taxes will go through the roof, despite what your savior tells you.I certainly don't want that to happen to us.

But...You voted for him.

[Celephais42]

Savior? How about just better option than McPalin. And considering that there are currently multiple bills in the house and senate its a bit a reach to say what would happen under any plan. This reeks of the "Death Panel" nonsense.

As to a menial job.. I don't have to wear a suit, I can have the dreadlocks, and I do something that actually PRODUCES something in this country, including the magazines that you very well clip into those guns of yours (not anti-gun by any means myself).

[Celephais42]

Being myself is more important than making large amounts of money kissing ass on the corporate ladder.

[rproark]

Not impressed with your response. But hey...great effort, man. Great effort.

[Rumor77]

Ultra weak response and effort actually. Sad and ignorant. He should concentrate on getting a job.

[Celephais42]

I've been employed since I was 16 tyvm, and recently bought a house, thanks to the Bush economic crash. It has managed to cut into my overtime a fair bit though. Ah well, since the Dems still drink the Friedman kool-aide as much as the right, I suppose we should expect a re-inflation of the bubble economy before too long.

[HowDaWorldTwerks]

Where else have I seen people bitching about stuff without a hint of constructive input? Oh yeah, the republican party. Good job.

[HowDaWorldTwerks]

awesome. i can't wait to get mine up.