BA GUA ZHANG aka BA ZHANG QUAN

[petercwchk]

8qq8.info

...

[principledpower]

Hi @petercwchk Please leave a comment. 

[abraxnos]

separate out body parts-

fascinating statement

I understand what u mean by consolidation

by separating out do you mean

rotating joints from the ground up/out?

pls excuse my ignorance

[principledpower]

No, "rotating joints from the ground up/out" aka "silk-reeling" is still a kind of consolidation strength training.

The description section of this clip lists the sequence with which internal organs/body regions are separated. You may be able to identify the movements just by examining them as I do them (eg. head is high, kidney is low).

In the pao chui clip as well, each trigram palace entered reflects a separate organ/region. This is how central this task is to ba gua quan training.

[principledpower]

Also, whereas taiji identifies and cultivates a central core (lower dantien or at most three-upper, middle, lower), ba gua quan identifies and cultivates eight different cores. The difference is like apples and oranges.

[abraxnos]

bizzare-looks like a mix of internal systems namely BGZ and Taiji

[principledpower]

The form is classical, taught to me by Gong Baozai. Please identify what part is BGZ and what part is Taiji?

[abraxnos]

I wasnt being critical, mearly pointing out similarities in body articulations within internal styles-after all bagua is know as the sister of taiji-

[principledpower]

"bizarre??" the body articulations are actually quite different: main difference being while the Yang taiji stance holds a wider base with buttocks tucked under, the Yin Fu feet are placed along a single line. Gong Baozai described the difference as moving along a "plane" vs along a "line", respectively. Consequently, ba gua aims to separate out body parts, while taiji seeks consolidation from the start.

[turbo222686]

Sounds enlightening, break a leg.

[turbo222686]

Scholar- Warriorship

That is good stuff to talk about.

[principledpower]

Scholar-warriorship is part of the traditional main frame and will certainly be talked about...

[turbo222686]

I don;t live in Northern California but thanks anyways.

What bagua questions are you going to answer?

[principledpower]

Among them: the original meaning of single changing and double changing palm; how they fit into the greater architecture; the difference between ba gua "fist" and ba gua "palm", how Chinese medicine is interwoven into eight mother palms, symbolic and functional meaning of eight trigrams images, their palms, animals, etc.

[turbo222686]

I think it is a superior method for opening the fascia as well.

Going at an even open pace like you are doing.

[principledpower]

I don't know where your living, but just to let you know I'll be giving a workshop on "Anatomy of an Orthodox Martial Art Mystery System" in Boston with Edward Burke in a few weeks (Sept 27-28, 2008). Will present the same workshop in Northern California in a few months. Its been years of preparation, but I'm excited to finally bring BGQ/BGZ's hidden architecture out. Should clarify a lot of questions circulating in the ba gua community.

[turbo222686]

You engage a type of martial intelligence when you take your time and step at an even pace.

[principledpower]

This is very true.

[jaygmui]

why is it slow-mo

[principledpower]

I used to whip through it when I was younger, but after 31 years this pace feels comfortable and right. Luo de xiu imparts the same feeling in his practice that I strive for as well, where the qi is quiet, cultivating, and power concealed within.

Thanks for asking.

[jaygmui]

u should sorta do it faster but not too fast,

just enough to stay comfortable

[principledpower]

Thanks for the advice.

[principledpower]

Thank you.

[turbo222686]

Yes it was my own meanness.

[turbo222686]

thanks for taking my comments to alex down.I got caught up in the meaness for a second.

thanks again

[principledpower]

Idealistically, we would hope to avert such loss of control. People are not generally mean. It is just such moments when we get caught unawares--and (sometimes decades) later show remorse or regret for our actions--that we seek to minimize with the help of orthodox practice.

Thanks for the assistance.

[alex200688]

y tambien eres latino, no eres chino. Nosotros (las personas que son chinos) saben mas de nuestras artes marcieles porque, simply we created them. thank you, señor bobo

[principledpower]

Now this is getting ridiculous...of course I'm Chinese!

It's been nice chatting with you.

[alex200688]

You really have no idea what you're talking about. And it does have an external form. If there were a truly internal art, our bodies would not move at all. Those arts are for harmonizing the external and internal into one acting integral unit instead of just the external. Just like the difference in wai gong and nei gong. but you probably dont know what that is either.

[alex200688]

if you really have studied for 35 years, you wouldnt be trying to prove yourself, as would your form be better as well. I think wudang mountain would know a little bit more than a little old man sitting behind his computer claiming he's a master of a useless form of martial arts that takes the name in vain of a great style of internal art. You really have no clue what you're talking about. And I'm not interested in your book. You have a bad sales pitch.

[alex200688]

that's because it is. Ba Gua Zhang is the form based on the principle of the bagua. Luohan is not another name for shaolin. Luohan is a form from shaolin, and a luohan is a buddhist disciple with magical powers. Luohan is a certain type of fist form. As is baguazhang. Look up any videos and you will see the many sets that the real ba gua form has. Bagua comes from the wudang mountain as for luohan, comes from Song mountain's shaolin temple.

[principledpower]

Having studied for 35 years, I am familiar with all your viewpoints and arguments. I think you'll find interesting a book I'm about to publish: "Way of the Saint: The forgotten relationship between medicine, mysticism, and martial arts". Where I present an interesting twist to the history of BGZ and BGQ. GBZ contends the art DHC transmitted to YF was in both principle and method a blend of Daoist and Buddhist influence. Quite different from Wu Dang's claim that ba gua is only Daoist.

[alex200688]

wrong.

you are the living example of your art. If you were not to do your art there would be no art. You sound like an insecure person.

We all try to have the most confidence in ourselves as we can, but obviously you have something to prove to someone. Maybe its yourself, who knows.

[principledpower]

You seem intent on an uncompromising line between bagua and shaolin.

I refer you to Baguazhang Journal (Plum Flower Press) with many articles distinguishing YF and Cheng Tinghua history.

DHC and YF both practiced luohan. GBZ taught that "ba gua" is structural, medical & technical treatment of shaolin (see 3:04 of my tutorial 2 & comment to pkiller85 on my tutorial1). I learned that ba gua is a principle, not a form. You seem to insist that ba gua commit to a fixed external look or form.

[alex200688]

and your form's not good ... its very amateur

[principledpower]

You sound like an angry person. We make the best of our talents. That's all any of us can do.

[principledpower]

I admire your enthusiasm. But it appears you are not familiar with the line of Dong Haichuan-Yin Fu-Gong Baotian-Gong Baozai. Circle walking (Ba gua zhang - palm aka internal cultivation, medicine, character) comprises half the system. Linear forms and combat (Ba gua quan - fist aka external training, life skills) comprise the other half. The big name for the system is Ba Gua Quan - "Fist" used in the same classical sense as shaolin quan & tai ji quan.

Hope this clarifies things.

Michael

[alex200688]

it doesnt, and i'm very familiar with dong haichuan's lineage

you didnt post the video link i sent you either because im right

good job trying to be an anus :)

[alex200688]

and im a fluent mandarin chinese speaker

chuan is fist

zhang is palm

ni shu yao shou zhongwen ...

that way you'd know what you're talking about

yes yours is ba gua chuan, which is what i said, its a shaolin form ...

your description calls it ba gua zhang, and its not ba gua zhang. Look it up. You obviously are not familiar with martial arts.

[principledpower]

Alex200688, you also wrote:

"Dong Hai Chuan was the first public teacher of this style, as legend states it was taught to him in his seclusion in the mountains by an old daoist monk who nursed him back to health after running into some trouble in his traveling.

Ba Gua Chuan isn't related to Ba Gua Zhang in method or theory,

but only by the use of the ba gua."

[principledpower]

Alex200688, you wrote:

"Its not actually. you do ba gua quan. Ba gua quan is literally translated to 8 Trigram Fist. This was a shaolin style that used the ba gua as a means of practicing technique, however its not Ba Gua Zhang. Ba Gua Zhang translates to 8 Trigram Palm, and it based on circular movements, hand changes with palms, circle stepping and tricky footwork."

[turbo222686]

I learned this method from MJG some years ago.

The thing with this form, not specifically a fighting form, is the precise issuing of the natural strength that arises from the method. This bagua is very precise like pin point accuracy on the fly is needed. This is a great from method to help get this kind of focus on the run.

Many of MJG's methods train this type of ability along with light skills and an open body.

I am a big fan of the GBZ baguaquan system so keep up the great work professor .

[principledpower]

I am happy to hear that so many years ago the key points were already being emphasized. I am also appreciative of YouTube as a forum to advance research by bringing old relationships back together.

Thank You.

[kungfutradicional7]

Muy Sr,Mio;Que tal si en vez de criticar a otros maestros, da la cara y podemos ver todos su movimiento de Baguazhang. Deje de criticar y sea más constructivo.

Por cierto el Shifu Carlos es un gran exponente de Baguazhang...

Tenga cuidado con lo que dice pués daña la imagen de la comunidad marcial china de España. (Única advertencia)

Atentamente. J.M.P

[turbo222686]

It would be great if Carlos and Michael would communicate.

This line's body method is different than the standard method. So it is typical that you would be critical of this method. But there is more than one way to skin a gatos.

[principledpower]

I'm afraid you have the wrong teacher. I don't know a Master Carlos, and I don't know anyone in Spain.

[LeviathanAngel]

Gong's style is similar to Yin Fu's.

I didnt understand it until very recently.

[principledpower]

Gong Baotian was introduced to Yin Fu as a child by his brother Gong Baoshan (already Yin Fu's student), and eventually took over Yin Fu's Imperial Palace security guard position when Yin Fu retired. The mystery is why Gong Baotian's ba gua is so different from that more commonly known - biggest difference being the open body versus conventional IMA turtle back posture.

Thanks for your comment.

[waidanwizard]

YOur movements are nice but Baugua is a circular eight step art. Not sure why you form is more linear that circular. Your swallow is nice though.

[principledpower]

Just as in Robert Smith's Zhang Junfeng ba gua system composed of linear chains that are walked into the circle (I studied with Zhang's wife in Taiwan for 2 years in the 70's) Gong Baotian's system also has linear forms. Ba zhang quan is eventually blended together with eight mother palms in the circle.

Thanks very much for your comment!

[waidanwizard]

I have been studying Sun style Bagua and Xingyi but personally am not familiar with your style. I appreciate your constructive reply.

[a33b4321]

good! 加油~

[MASoulChild85]

I enjoyed watching. the movements look so graceful... TaiJi and Baji Quan forms keep my mind in peace =)

[principledpower]

Your comment is much appreciated.

[MASoulChild85]

Of course man =)

treasure your skills and God given art. Take Care!

MartialArtsSoulChild

[jeichels]

Thank you for these posts. I continue to practice with Ken in NJ every Friday and with the other students Saturdays. I work on the 2,4,64, & first two man form regularly. I had learned the 8 as well, but it had grown dim. I have it back now with this.

I used to know the steady step and heart forms, but they are distant now. In some ways that is not important so important to me as basics and understanding have become more important then quantity.

Hope all is going well!

JohnE

[principledpower]

John,

Glad the videos are useful. Agreed that it is more essential to understand the system's main line forms.

If you have any specific questions about bazhangquan practice, please ask.

Cheers!

[pk2118]

Could you tell me why in the double pull back you perform between head and lung palms that your right foot is lifted up?

We've been comparing your form to He Jinghan's and his toe is down before he leaps and takes off.

[principledpower]

He Jinghan's is the formal way. Practicing this round, I was envisioning blocking and countering a foot attack as I sat back ready to attack with White Ape Offers Fruit. I usually practice with toe down as Gong Baozai taught it. Thanks for the question!

[tehutiblack]

Great presentation Dr. G. This is another excellent representation of Ba Gua Quan. For all of the viewers of this video, please view principledpower's pao chui video. These videos far surpasses the other Ba Gua Quan (Yin Fu,Gong Bao Tien, Gong Bao Zai) videos posted here on youtube. Don't believe me, check them out for yourselves.This form is short but has deep roots(read the comments in the upper right hand corner). Anyway, Dr. G, I commend you again.

[ejb816]

This is an exceptional example of a rarely performed (in public) Baguaquan linear form from the Palace Style lineage of Yin Fu. I learned this from Michael over a decade ago and I consider it one of my foundational practices. It is wonderful to have a demonstration of this quality accessible to me and others who are dedicated to embodying this lineage.