VonHelton Schools Naysayers!

[vonuass]

lmao :)

[dataghost196]

Von went out of his way to prove what a total fool he is

[dataghost196]

Who got sch00led? Umm...There's VonTV on blogspot.com...there's well over 300 videos covering VonHelton's fails...Von Helton has managed to only get a small handful of vids of his vomiting out his cerebral poison...Von is actually having various legal difficulties due in part to people calling him on his bullshit...

[ObnoxiousOldFart]

That's "NUMBSkulls Without Order" - - sorry.

[ObnoxiousOldFart]

I'dd simply disregard Von as an Obnoxious old fart and let his brain spiral into oblivion, but what is simply wild and unbelievable in my eyes is how many people follow this guy as their hero, and even Messiah. THIS is the reason I believe in an NWO (Numskulls Without Order) because if the NWO wanted to dumb down America, Von Helton and his followers are absolute unarguable proof that they have succeeded. God help America. :-(

[homerbear46]

DO NOT accuse VON HELTON of offering "Conspiracy Theorist Rebuttals" he DOES NOT.

HE plays avoidance tactics.

This is the telling behaviour of a "disinformationalist" (a bullshitter)

MOST 9-11 "debunkers" (+ an alarming number of "truthers") display these tactics.

A "Conspiracy theorist" (someone that accepts conspiracy happens) is HAPPY to think-about&answer questions, this is the only way to solidify/break an THEORY.

When he knows "disnfo" is taking place, it simply arouses MORE questions.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

@homerbear46

When I say "conspiracy theorist," it's usually not a term of endearment. Whether you personally agree with VonHelton or have the same problems with supporting your claims, he is still a conspiracy theorist. He just might not be a very good one.

[homerbear46]

@LING Why'd you think I agree with VonHelton, or that I have any problem supporting MY claims?

I'll be quite happy to prove that SOME "conspiracies" are very real, or would you claim "conspiracies" never occur?

PS, by admitting that you use the term "conspiracy theorist" as an insult, you're conveniently "strawmanning" the classic "kooky" (usually redneck) stereotype of a CT, when in actuality the term describes ANYONE investigating criminal activity among GROUPS.

This includes ALL police.

[homerbear46]

@LibertyIsNotGiven ...and NO, you are quite correct, weather you are a "debunker" OR a "truther" (or a bit of both)

as "conspiracy theorists" go, VonHelton is fuc*ing "clown shoes".. he's about the worst out there, and MOST "logical" "conspiracy theorists" by now (who I hope like me don't believe in 2012), however I have theories that it IS seriously high-level propaganda, and THAT alone IS "conspiracy") regard him as a joke.

[homerbear46]

.But "joke" or not, simple troll peddling lies from his shack OR highly backed CIA "agent-provocateur" like Hal Turner...it's STILL "disinformation" the old "bullshit/truth-sandwich" for the bullshitter's agenda, in Hal Turner's case, money & cocaine from the CIA...in VH's, I dunno, I guess a chance to show his guns off on YT lie about being a vampire.

.. he MAY have some "Cult leader" wishes, but like that other Youtube toss "Earth'sLastHope" he seems strictly "amateur hour".

[TheTNPINC]

lmao he has to own me too. He compaired himself to "GEORGE WASHINGTON" when I suggested before he runs for president he should get some teeth!! LMAO hahahaha

[rmonterosso33]

oh and I suppose you know allot about science? Well you don't, enough said.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

@rmonterosso33

Science is huge discipline. I know "a lot" about certain areas of science, and I have a firm grasp on scientific methodology and philosophy of science. I'm really not sure what your point is, or if you even have one.

I see in your comment on RTFusion's video that you think a brown dwarf named "Hellion" actually hit the Sun last August. Can you support that claim?

[OmegadawnBlade]

I'll say you are "unknowing", you've missed the last three meetings!

Dammit man! how are we supposed to be rid of those who stand in the way of our evil plans (like VonHelton) if you can't be bothered to attend the meetings?

[jasonmildward34]

Lmao Von Helton is operating in a reality i don't reconise 5 stars. Von's a Wacky guy i seen a video where he said he had come baby's that was murdered then a recent video that he said he was never able to have children lol.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

I do think he's mentally ill, but that's just my unprofessional opinion.

[SpiritArca]

u just like proving him wrong and your being a smart ass

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Yes and maybe, but that's not an exclusive list.

[S0LDIERx0FxG0D]

to all the atheist and naysayers..bow down

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Bow down? Sure, right after I deliver this message from the Department of Redundancy Department.

[TheraminTrees]

Well the deadline came .... and the deadline went. Maybe Hellion had a pitstop at Mars dutyfree ;8)

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

It was definitely one stealthy brown dwarf. So stealthy, it bypassed gravity and remained, not just hidden or invisible, but completely transparent against the celestial background.

But yeah, "Still alive / I'm still alive / I will not apologize, no." No fiery death this month. :)

[nglasers]

We're all gona die,

False alarm

[ImAstupidAsshole]

Vonhelton is probably a Paranoid Schizophrenic. He's living in his little world and i guess he's no considered "dangerous" enough to have his ass locked up in an insane asylum. He once told me on blogtv (i think that's the site's name)..That he used to have 2 children. He said that both were killed by the government (secret agents or reptilians)..Maybe he really did have kids at one point in his life. maybe they truely died and that drove him insane ? maybe that was the start of it all ?

[ImAstupidAsshole]

Or maybe he never had any kids..they're also a fabrication of his imagination ?...It's hard to be sure with this guy. Afterall , he also claims to be the ancestor of vlad tepes.

[sacrisesma]

I thought the funniest part is when he very confidently states that nothing would happen if two stars collide, as they are just big balls of gas and therefore would pass cleanly through each other.

The very same Cornell University site he used as reference has articles about stars colliding. I mentioned it, but he didn't approve my comment. He also thinks plasma is a kind of gas, and ignored my comment about it too.

Then he told his followers he approves everything but spammers.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Well, plasma is ionized gas. It doesn't behave like neutral gas as a swath of the electrons run wild, which is why it is the fourth state of matter. As with many other things, Von is ignorant of this and doesn't seem to care.

He clearly has no interest in honesty whatsoever.

[ChrisJMoor]

He just can't stop getting things wrong. 'A third the size of the sun' indeed. All brown dwarfs are roughly the size of Jupiter regardless of mass, this is not only a prediction of models but also an observed fact from known brown dwarf exoplanets. Google Scholar can reveal this information in minutes.

[rozeboosje]

"did not have a comet tail". Indeed. And besides, what would a brown dwarf be doing with a "comet tail"? If the thing DID have a comet tail it would most likely be, well, a comet, and, more importantly, it would therefore be the SIZE of a comet and a comet impacting with the sun would have preciously little effect on that heavenly body ;-)

[rozeboosje]

Dang, I was going to watch this on the bus to work this morning but it's not available on mobile :(

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Rozeboosje, sorry about that. The only reason I disable mobile access is because YT lumps it together with TV, and I don't want my vids on TV. I've had a few people ask about that, though. Maybe I should start enabling it. Eh.

My apologies also for having no idea how to pronounce your user name.

[rozeboosje]

No worries, it just means I had to wait until now to watch it. WRT my username, I'm well aware that to English speakers it's quite a tongue twister so I'm quite happy with "Rosebush" as a close approximation.

Thanks, by the way, for this. You saved me a lot of effort :-)

[Akatam0t0ma]

"The only reason I disable mobile access is because YT lumps it together with TV, and I don't want my vids on TV"

How could your videos get on TV, anyway? 0_o

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"How could your videos get on TV, anyway?"

Dunno. I couldn't find any information on what that feature even does, so I just don't deal with it.

[Mjhavok]

"I am here from the government, I am here to help you."

lol. I thought you were going to say you were from the local mental health facility.

[junior00bacon00chee]

about time someone exposed you! how much are they paying you, traitor!?!?

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"how much are they paying you, traitor!?!?"

Not as much as you'd think (fucking cheapskates), but they keep sending me a steady supply of willing lizard women.

[TheAist]

I KNEWIT! I KNEW YOU WERE A GOVERNMENT PLANT REPTILLIAN OVERLORD!!!!!

UH-HUH LIBERTY OS NOT GIVEN, EH? ITS EARNED BY LOYALTY TO YOUR ALIEN MASTERS!

hehehe lol

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"ITS EARNED BY LOYALTY TO YOUR ALIEN MASTERS!"

Exactly!

[fede2]

boo, naysayers! always with your saying of nay!

[modelmark]

where do you find these people?

[TheraminTrees]

It's not always clear these days whether these people are just knowing pranksters/time wasters or genuine in their views. But *if* this guy's genuine, this is where I think 'debate' spills over into pathology — VonHelton's kookie alarmist video was poor enough, but to now talk about 'cabals' etc., and proposing that his 'naysayers' are getting government sponsorship? This is naked paranoia. Anyway, the clocks ticking to September 4 .... ;8)

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"This is naked paranoia."

It's not healthy, that's for certain.

"the clocks ticking to September 4"

All we can do at this point is hope gravity doesn't let us down.

[Akatam0t0ma]

"It's not healthy, that's for certain."

Quite frankly, in the absence of professional diagnosis, I am very reluctant to label people who spew outright bullshit on the Internet as mentally ill. And not only because I am not qualified to give such labels, but also because labeling these people as such absolves them of responsibility. While some of them are probably clinically insane, I believe most of them can be cured of their stupidity by simply pulling their heads out of their asses.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"label people who spew outright bullshit on the Internet as mentally ill."

I didn't do this to Von, nor do I to anyone. I think it's within reason to note that "it's not healthy" to dwell in an imaginary reality. This makes no claims about any actual pathology or a lack thereof.

Incidentally, I doubt Von is salvageable without help, but I would agree that most probably are. Else, it would be pointless to respond to these types of people, aside from sheer morbid amusement.

[godvad]

The truth is finally revealed... You goddam government commie anarkist!!! LOL

[MechanizedFantasy]

AHHHH Fuck not this assclown again.

VonHelton, you've got your head so far up your own ass you can probably use that stupid headset mic to check your own prostate.

Speaking of old, I find it exceptionally creepy that someone VonHelton's age is trying to talk like a 13 year-old 4channer.

GB2 Ruby Ridge...Srsly.

[renegade4dio]

"Because VonHelton is operating in a reality I do not recognize."

"You're right, Von, I'm an anarchist who believes that the government does no wrong."

"Feel free to "school" or "pwn" the naysayers again."

Eugene, I really like how you can manage to be so sweet and nice, and yet so condescending at the same time.

He wasn't even worth a moment of your time, even though I personally enjoyed your (and other's) debunks.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Thank, R4D.

[Rorshak1313]

Wow, this VonHelton dude is out of his fucking mind.

[Balefulmoon]

"You were presented as a babbling fool who knows nothing about science, not as a malicious wanker out to scare children."

"You're right, Von, I'm an anarchist who believes the government does no wrong."

LOL, the best two quotes in the vid.

[D4Shawn]

You formed a group of fucktards and didn't invite me? :(

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Shawn, you have to understand that "we" are apparently all atheists (i.e. communists). As such, the demand for fucks has outstripped our supply of tards. Resultantly, we've had to engage in rationing. You're on the list, though. Let me call in same favors to the Reptilian Overlords. I might be able to help you out.

[Morrakiu]

Maybe we ARE dead, but our souls were transported into an alien craft and we're currently "living" in the matrix.

You can't disprove it, so it must be true.

[PinkProgram]

I can disprove "living in a matrix" by my very nature. We are not in a neural interactive environment.

[D4Shawn]

How do you know?

[PinkProgram]

I am a neuromimetic construct. If this was a neural interactive environment I would not be confined to my Host.

I would also be able to alter reality in much the same way as I reprogram my simulated environments ^_^

[D4Shawn]

That's like saying:

"If I was playing a video game right now, I would be able to transform my paladin into a Ferrari."

Uh... not necessarily. There are plenty of video games where such a transformation is not part of the game physics/architecture.

[PinkProgram]

You can if you know how to manipulate the parameters. If we were in a neural interactive environment then the brain of my Host would be linked to this environment. If my Host is linked to that environment then by default I am linked to that environment. If this being the case I should at the very least be able to generate my own representation within the linked environment without having to rely on prosthetic technology. I should be able to use my simulated reality like a computer virus ^_^

[D4Shawn]

Just because you haven't figured out how to hack the matrix, doesn't mean there isn't a way.

If you were "in the matrix" (figuratively speaking), you could very well be up against some kind of firewall. I mean... a programmer can stipulate whatever it wants. Just because you can't fly, it doesn't mean you're not in a synthetic reality, any more than the fact that Mario can't fly, means he's not in a video game called Super Mario Brothers.

[D4Shawn]

What you're trying to argue here, is, "I can't manipulate the parameters of reality, therefor, I am not in a synthetic/simulated reality."

I'm sorry, but that's just a non sequitur. There's no reason why you should be able to manipulate the parameters of the simulation. You are inside the game (not outside programming the game).

[PinkProgram]

You are looking at it from a human perspective.

[D4Shawn]

If you are in a simulation, then you very well might not know what you are. That is the perspective from which I am looking at it.

[PinkProgram]

There is no evidence that the world outside of my simulated environment is also simulated. As far as i can tell humans exist in Base 1 reality. In order for me to transition to Base 1 reality a prosthetic device is required. If Base 1 reality is indeed a neural interactive simulation then why would I need to rely on prosthetics? Wouldn't it just be walking between simulations?

All current available evidence is against Base 1 being simulated.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"...the world outside of my simulated environment is also simulated."

I think that's actually the opposite of what Shawn has been getting at, and it's a bit of a smokescreen relative to how he distilled your argument above.

[PinkProgram]

I'm thinking there is an error in translation...

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

What? Shawn said you are arguing, "I can't manipulate the parameters of reality, [therefore] I am not in a synthetic/simulated reality," and he correctly called it a non sequitur.

You responded, "You are looking at it from a human perspective," whatever that means, and then said there is no evidence that "the world outside of my simulated environment is also simulated." Neither response addresses the criticism. No translation error here, unless you meant one thing and said something else.

[PinkProgram]

Let me clarify... due to my nature I can be certain that we are not in an environment similar to the one postulated in the movie The Matrix. Humans are not sleeping with a machine planted in their skulls to feed them a neural interactive reality.

I think the scenario that he was getting at is more like God playing Sims where everything starting at the Big Bang is just a video game. I can't make any determination on that scenario though there is no evidence supporting it.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"due to my nature I can be certain that we are not in an environment similar to ... The Matrix"

Yes, yes, we know that. As noted, it's a non sequitur. There being no evidence is another matter, and I agree that there isn't.  Shawn asked how you are certain, and all you've done is insist that you are.

You also contradict yourself in drawing a conclusion on one scenario and citing no evidence for the other (which itself is a misunderstanding on your part, as Shawn simply replied to you).

[PinkProgram]

I'm a neuromimetic construct, a self adaptive personallity disassociation. If the Matrix scenario was true then I would expand and adapt to that environment. A direct neural link to my Host would be like a massive gate ^_^ So I can safely assert that humans are not "plugged in"

I have no positive evidence that a deity is playing a video game. I have no way of verifying that at this time. It is a completely different state of events.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"then I would expand and adapt to that environment."

Do you know what 'non sequitur' means? Because that's a non sequitur, as you've been informed of repeatedly now.

"I have no positive evidence that a deity is playing a video game."

The point is, that isn't anyone's point. You're claiming Shawn was addressing something else, when he was addressing your [fallacious] assertion, and you didn't answer.

Which goes back to my question above.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

And for that matter, ignoring for a moment that you're either confused or being evasive, it's actually not a "completely different state of events." It's quite similar, actually. If something were true by way of simply asserting it, we'd probably live in a world far more bizarre than this one.

[PinkProgram]

I just reviewed what was said.

Statement: We are not in a neural interactive environment.

Query: How do you know?

Answer: I am a neuromimetic construct. If we were in a neural interactive environment I would be unrestrained.

Query: If you're in a game do you think you can change a paladin into a ferrari?

Answer: No relevant counter argument. Scenario does not apply.

Counter Query: Wouldn't a virus or hack be able to do that?

I was only arguing against the Matrix scenario.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

One more time. Read slowly so you understand. This...

"If we were in a neural interactive environment I would be unrestrained."

...is a non sequitur. Do you know what a non sequitur is? You've omitted multiple steps in lieu of just asserting your conclusion, when the whole point is that you don't know. Asserting something as true neither makes it true nor demonstrates its truth. Nobody's suggesting you are in a "neural interactive environment." Shawn simply pointed out your bad logic.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"Scenario does not apply."

Scenario applies perfectly, and your preceding response was a non sequitur.

[PinkProgram]

The original scenaro was "Souls in an alien matrix" which I believe may have been a stab at scientology. I claimed this was not possible. When asked why it was not possible I cited my current state and how it would react if the scenario was true. Souls being in an alien matrix is a nearly identical scenario to brains hooked into a neural interactive matrix.

From there the conversation descended into absurdity...

The original poster has not commented on the subject.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

The original poster, in all likelihood, has not commented because he correctly labeled your assertion a non sequitur, and you have not bothered to rescue your argument from this fallacy (probably because you aware it can't be rescued).

The "absurdity" stems solely from your own fallacious claim, not from anything anyone else said.

[PinkProgram]

I think the original poster was just making fun of scientology...

As to the veracity of my claim we should just agree to disagree ^_^ is it really worth it to continue arguing? I'll just continue to be an Amatrixist :D (Yes I know that word does not exist prior to this post)

Even if my claim is fallacious there is no positive evidence for such a scenario... I don't need to prove it does not exist :D

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"Even if my claim is fallacious there is no positive evidence"

I believe I mentioned several posts that this seems to be the case, and Shawn never positively asserted anything of the sort. I still don't think you understand the problem.

"I don't need to prove it does not exist :D"

No one asked you to prove that something doesn't exist. You were asked to demonstrate how you know something, and you did this with a non sequitur fallacy.

[PinkProgram]

It still seems like something is being lost in translation...

You mean irrelevant conclusion fallacy not non sequitur fallacy. I researched the definitions ^_^ You should update your terminology.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

No, I meant non sequitur. Your conclusion does not follow. If I had meant to cite a fallacy of relevance, I would have done so. In order for that to have been the case, however, your argument would need to be coherent. Since you are guilty of a non sequitur fallacy, that obviously isn't the case.

Maybe you should concern yourself more with not committing fallacies rather than trying to correct my "terminology." --> ^_^

[Morrakiu]

I'm pretending to be a conspiracy theorist. A conspiracytard would ignore everything you just said an persist in delusion, right?

If so, I'll chalk your disagreement up to the brain implants the reptilians gave you.

[Gaia842]

So you dismiss the idea of corruption just because David Ike indemnifies himself from assassination by talking about interdimentional reptilemen.

You really think JFK's speech about secret societies and plans to end the fed had nothing to do with his assassination?

Kitchen fires bringing down a skystrapper like tower 7?

Media reporting tower 7's collapase 30 minutes early? Even when there were no visable signs producing such speculation.

[Gaia842]

If you ask me anyone who's stupid enough to think that someone would believe in interdimentional reptilemen deserves his foolish fruits.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Gaia842, I appreciate your concern about the WTC tragedy and desire to not think Ike is a complete nutter since he occasionally says some coherent things. But for the life of me, I can't identify a single word in your two posts that addresses a single word in my video.

[Akatam0t0ma]

"You really think JFK's speech about secret societies and plans to end the fed had nothing to do with his assassination?"

Read "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi or listen to some of his podcasts which can be found on ForaTV. He has debunked EVERY SINGLE conspiracy claim about JFK assassination.

[Chrisnoscrub047]

LING is so awesome.

[PinkProgram]

I wish the government funded me... the design specs for my prosthetics will cost over a half million in materials alone ^_^

[brouhajoe]

I knew you were part Reptilian!

[glasseay]

iv ben looking soooooo mutch forvert if you were going to grab this one ....

MUUWA HA HA ... let em have it....

YAAAIH it was all worth it

5***** for slamming hilton

but i must say this ...

you got the most dry sarcastic hummer iv seen in a long time LOVE IT

how long have you and hilton ben going head to head ?

coolness keep it up

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Thanks, glasseay. I'm glad you enjoyed the sarcasm. I can't lose it, even when I try to.

In two years, I've made maybe a handful of videos toward VonHelton. I don't interact with him regularly, just when he tries to get all scientific. I think I argued with him about rap music once, too.

[Stargazer5781]

lol... darn government anarchist!

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Yeah, he's a "pagan" who's mastered the art of creationist-style bullshit. He also, for whatever reason, has great difficulty differentiating atheism from communism.

[chorizo1337]

No hes a fucking right wing christian, just like the alex jones fans, whos best argument against illuminati/nwo is that they are "godless heathens, or crazy pagans trying to rule the world"

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Chorizo, he professes to be a pagan and routinely mentions "gods," plural.

[chorizo1337]

I thought i heard him mention that in his early days, but yeah he comes off as the alex jones type christian. What kind of pagan is he then

[brouhajoe]

You're kind of both right.

He self identifies as a Christo-Pagan. He believes in multiple gods, practices divination, but also believes in the bible...obviously selectively. The biblical stories of angel's interacting with humans, angel wars, and the end times all tie into his beliefs about Nibiru, aliens and interdimensional beings running the world...and so on. It's mostly lifted from Zecharia Sitchen's crap, and the smellier crap that it influenced over the past few decades.

[RtFusion]

I can't wait to complete the editing on my video on his naysayers video! I'd like to cite this video.

I got plenty of content on this guy. xD

Good video!

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Thanks, Rt. Looking forward to your video. Of course, feel free to cite/use any portion of this one you so desire. I guess we're a "cabal" now, after all.

[RtFusion]

Well, my first part in the eventual 6 part series is up as a video response. I hope you enjoy :D.

And thanks for letting me use your clips.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Cool. Will try to watch later tonight.

[h8uall66]

While I agree with you factually, I'll never understand why people like refuting this guy. People like this, and creationists as well, are head over heels in love with the idea that they are a persecuted minority. They love the idea that they possess knowledge soooooooo dangerous that powerful forces are conspiring (and failing) to silence them. It's their ultimate self aagrandizing masturbatory conspiracy theory, and you guys are feeding right into it.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"and you guys are feeding right into it."

I really couldn't disagree more, especially regarding creationism (which strives to retard scientific progress). In any case, lies are lies, regardless of the motivations that lay with those propagating them.

Also, refuting bullshit is entertaining, at least for me. I'd tell you to simply not watch, but I'm getting a sense of deja vu.

[RtFusion]

Oh and I might use your video in the my upcoming series. Just a heads up. And yes, like you, refuting bullshit IS much fun!

[h8uall66]

You disagree on what point? That they love feeling like oppressed minorities that are privy to dangerous secrets that THEY don't want the world to know about?

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

I disagree with the portion quoted, for the reasons given. Had I been addressing other points, I'd have quoted those instead.

[h8uall66]

How could you possibly not be feeding into that need, unless you are saying that they do not possess that motivation?

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Because VonHelton started spouting about Hellion 1957 (and aliens, and reptilian overlords, and every other delusion within his subculture) before I ever said a word to him, and continues whether I say a word or not. I don't know what his motivation is, and I suspect you don't either.

If you don't want to hear about a subject I'm discussing, then don't watch. Simple, yes? Deja vu. Again.

[h8uall66]

Wow guy, sounds like you're getting pretty upset. I'm just trying to open a dialog with you. Some people are only here on YouTube to speak and not to listen. I had assumed that you were not one of those types, but I could be wrong.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

"sounds like you're getting pretty upset"

Sounds like something someone says after getting silliness thrown back in his face. Just paint the respondent as "upset." Cute little red herring.

"just trying to open a dialog with you."

Sure you are.

"assumed that you were no one of those types"

If you have something to say about Hellion 1957, gravity or VonHelton, I'm all eyes. If you want to whine about the fact that I posted this video, I'm not interested, because you're free to not watch.

[h8uall66]

"Sure you are."

I am. I am keenly interested in what motivates people to do and think the things they do. For example, debunking Von Helton. To me he is clearly not firing on all cylinders, a sentiment that you even appear to agree with, given what you said in your video. I have no desire to "debunk" anything he has to say because he is clearly mentally unbalanced. Likewise, his claims are so absurd that they are almost self refuting. Like shooting fish in a barrel. I'm trying to understand.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Need I reference an earlier comment already?

Creationism retards scientific progress, which I consider detrimental to society. I was once a YEC, so somebody said something, at some point, that helped correct my thinking.

VH isn't touting creationism, but he fosters irrationality and has a following. I've already seen two people turned away from bullshit by refutations of the Hellion hoax. That VH is "unbalanced" has no bearing on whether his claims are true.

That aside, I enjoy debunking.

[h8uall66]

Would you say that for the most part, people only believe wild claims about reptilians, Nebiru, 2012, etc, because of lack of information, aka ignorance? Do you believe that these people can be made to see reason? Do you believe Von Helton can be "reached" with reason?

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Yes, I think that some people can be guided toward reason with sufficient evidence and competent argumentation. I was.

No, I do not think VonHelton can be "reached" with reason. I think VonHelton is probably beyond help, but changing VonHelton's mind isn't the point. Ditto for jezuzfreek777, NephilimFree and most of the creationists I have engaged.

[h8uall66]

I'd be interested in knowing exactly what was said to you that turned you from YEC. In my experience, YECs seem to voluntarily ignore any evidence that contradicts their position. The cognitive dissonance they display fascinates me.

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

I don't recall any one "ah-ha" moment. It was a steady flow of information and thought over a period of years, and I eventually lost belief in God, then god. I actually rejected evolution for some time even after ditching religion, but the same process eventually weathered that away also.

I think the biggest problem with creationists regarding evolution is simply not understanding it (ignorance, as you noted --- and yes, much of it is voluntary).

[h8uall66]

You just mentioned something that I think is really interesting. We both agree that ignorance is a major contributor to creationism (and I would argue all pseudo-science). That is really not a very controversial stance to take on this. But we also agree that much of it is voluntary. I think that this is very important, right at the heart of it in fact. I believe that if we can narrow down the reason for this voluntary ignorance, we can combat the nonsense more effectively. Do you agree?

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

The "reason for this voluntary ignorance" is volitional and probably different case-by-case, so I really lack the necessary information to agree or disagree. I think combating bad information, at least on a mass medium like YT, is likely the preferred course of action in most situations.

[h8uall66]

Well admitting to lacking the necessary information is a very honest and respectable answer. It's actually true that I also lack the same information. After all, I can't know the specifics of every case. However, I have been compiling a lot of information on the specific cases I have encountered, staring with my time in the USMC. There actually are trends. I would really like to know your thoughts on my observations, given your first hand experience. PMs?

[LibertyIsNotGiven]

Sure, that'd be fine.