Socialized Healthcare, Evil, Freedom Destroying, by Ezra Taft Benson

[brendos444]

@NortonGreg1830 how presumptuous and arrogant of you! You admit you know nothing about my country (and probably all others too). then you dismiss us as an "oligarchy". No that is what your country is and helped to create in Russia too. Our country is great and far more civilized than yours. We are not perfect. Our treatment of indigenous peoples was disgraceful, but at least our citizens have the assurance of health care - whether or not they can afford it.

[brendos444]

@jnjnelson.. Look at the history of big technological progress in your country. Agriculture - funded by government. Telecommunications technology - funded by govt. The internet - funded by govt... and so on and so forth. Which private company would have had the ability to absorb the huge upfront R&D expenditure to development any of these technologies. This is an example of a market failure. The mkt doesn't provide sufficient R&D. There are many other mkt failures too.

[jnjnelson]

@brendos444 Those are all examples of how government officials see something someone is succeeding at doing, then those government officials decide to make it part of government. Agriculture, telecommunications, and the Internet would have developed more quickly and much more effectively if these government had not wasted tax dollars on making the developments and innovations less effective.

[brendos444]

@jnjnelson This is silliness. All talk, no proof as usual. Just like how we're still waiting for Sweden to become serfs ala Hayek. Nonsense! You can say that these technological innovations would have been developed faster in the private sector, but they just simply haven't. In the US private enterprize has all the opportunity to whatever they like. These innovations couldn't have been developed in the private sector - the scale is simply too big. The required govt - and govt delivered.

[brendos444]

I am a avid reader of the Bible. The Bible is a spiritual text and is not meant to be a political or economic text. Altho you'll note that the Bible does say very harsh things about being driven by the love of money, which is, of course, the total foundation of liberal economic philosophy. With all due respect, I do not consider the BoM to be a credible text. I have read it btw, and found it unconvincing

[brendos444]

Its a bit presumptuous of you to imply that my pride is blinding me. I will read up on some libertarian literature. And I have read up some already. Why don't you try reading some books and papers by Amartya Sen. He has written extensively on freedom and provides a good critique on the libertarian perspective. btw taxation need not be coersion. Nobody likes paying tax but mature ppl can realize that it is necessary to have the kind of society we desire.

[brendos444]

In Australia, we don't have the crime and ghettos that big US cities do. Everyone can access healthcare, everyone gets education, everyone who is able can attend university courtesy of a low interest govt loan. We are about to implement extensive maternity leave for new mothers. The conservative party is proposing a six month paid maternity leave scheme funded by a tax on big business. I think our society is more free. Ppl have the freedom from worry of financial ruin.

[brendos444]

you don't have to pay to visit the doctor, all fulltime employees get 4 weeks paid annual leave etc etc... our fiscal position is very very strong. So in substance ppl in australia are far more free to achieve what they want and what they are capable of... free from the worry that they will be financially ruined by sickness, or unable to pay for education. We are more free to be what we want to become, regardless of socio economic status. this is thanks to a generous welfare state.

[krikster1]

@brendos444 Dude that is a lie...I know someone that lives and was born in your country and there is ghettos and crime there in Aussieland.

[brendos444]

@krikster1 of course there are some ghettos and crime, but nothing that could compete with South Central or Harlem. The huge underclass in the US is unparalled in advanced countries. It's a disgrace

[brendos444]

i'm sure financial markets think that any type of regulation is burdensome... but that doesn't negate the fact that it is socially optimal to do so... I'd say another gfc would be far more burdensome than any type of regulation. I take your point on the left right spectrum. I do believe that the economy should be primarily driven by mkts. But ppl want govt to provide education, healthcare and it is affordable as all other rich countries have shown - including mine, Australia.

[brendos444]

often people in other countries look at the level of debate in the US and shake our heads. Even the conservatives in our country would not dare remove universal health care. It provides so much security for all citizens - indeed in Amartya Sen's conception of freedom, peoples with the assurance of health care are much more free than those who do not. The benefit to society offsets the tax burden in the same way as having national defense. It's also about how civilized you want society.

[jnjnelson]

If the "conservatives" in Australia would not dare to remove universal health care, they do not have the courage to do that which is in the best interest of every Australian. When government is providing health care, it is not providing security, it is providing health care.

The use of governmental force is not inherently more civilized than the absence of governmental force. Just because government can do something does not necessarily mean that it is better at doing it that individuals.

[brendos444]

Ask any number citizens of latin american countries whether right wing/free market dictatorships work. We have very good economics that tells us that unfettered mkts do not lead to economic efficiency. When will libertarians learn...

[jnjnelson]

@brandos444 " free market dictatorships "? That is a contradiction. A dictatorship is not a free market. All the failings of our markets in this country are the result of the misuse of governmental force, not the result of the misuse of the market.

Freedom always results in prosperity. Governmental force has its place, and its place is to preserve individual freedom, not to provide health care or other free market services.

[brendos444]

@jnjnelson lol perhaps you should read some papers by stiglitz, sen, akerlof, shiller etc who demonstrate that markets can and do fail. No human institution is perfect. That's why a mix of govt and markets is most desireable.

[jnjnelson]

@brendos444 Perhaps you should check your premise. What makes you think I haven't read papers by those individuals? What difference would it make if I had not? Why change the subject to be about whether I have read something or not?

I agree that no human institution is perfect, but I completely disagree with the premise that the ideal economic model is one where the market is mixes with government. The only proper role of government in the market is to protect freedom.

[brendos444]

@jnjnelson those guys provide very good critiques of the notion that all you have to do is leave the market to itself. And the GFC is another reminder of this. In other words Stiglitz and co have been proven right. Hayek was proven wrong

[jnjnelson]

@brendos444 Joseph Stiglitz has been proven right - because he continues to learn and adapt his political and economic paradigm. However, I see no evidence that Hayek has been proven wrong. I don't understand there to be a significant difference in principle between the current ideology of "Stiglitz and co" and the legacy left by Friedrich Hayek.

[brendos444]

What a bunch of nonsense. Is it constitutional for policies to be adopted under the democratic process? Of course it is. In a democracy there will be policies that you don't like, but that the majority of citizens do. The majority want state run health care. The citizens want this and they voted for it. It is therefore incumbent on the govt to provide this. What this man is saying is tantamount to putting a limit on democracy, which is a far greater threat to freedom than "big government"

[5hr3w3d]

This must be shouted from every rooftop, if this country is to remain free.

[DefendingMormonism]

Very, very interesting. Thanks for posting.

[RIPPED7399]

one of the most brilliant men thats ever walked this great earth