Keeping Faith in the Free Market - Peter Thiel

[Clint7981]

@MeBoReDsOiLoGiN what do you mean a couple decades? Try ever...

[coffeescup]

lol at the stock market crash was caused by government entanglement?? on what planet is this man living.

[Aliothemage]

@coffeescup

Earth is the planet I'm on, how about you? Do you have any idea how much the government messes with the economy? It sets interest rates, causes inflation, forces banks to give certain people loans, created Freddie and Fannie which allow banks to put the risk of their mortgages on the tax payer, and the government even bails out banks if they get in trouble. If you don' think any of these things effected the housing bubble then I'm afraid you're just not well informed.

[coffeescup]

@Aliothemage Inflation is not entirely negative. You should read up on it. Setting interest rates is also not evil. More government regulation would have prevented the housing bubble. If you'd bother to watch the video, they both agree that there has never been an entirely free market. More or less free, certainly. The most successful countries on record are those that are a combination of capitalist and socialist. What are these ideal countries and times for you? Just curious.

[Aliothemage]

@coffeescup

Inflation is ENTIRELY unethical. It robs everyone who holds the money that is being inflated by stealing the value of that money. Lowering interest rates CREATES bubbles by sending market signals that tell investors that people are saving money, when they aren't in reality, which creates a lot of mal-investment. In this instance a whole lot of that mal-investment was in housing.

[coffeescup]

@Aliothemage You are against the fluctuating of values, but let me ask you this--how do you feel about the stock market? Values change. It is only when they change at an unmanageable rate that we should worry.

[Aliothemage]

@coffeescup

I didn't say I was against "fluctuating values". I'm against robbery. When the government force us to use their money (You can call the police on any business who doesn't want to accept payment for services in all pennies and they WILL force them to accept them) and then prints money or uses the fractional reserve system to cause inflation, that actively steals from every holder of US money. THAT is wrong.

I'm find with the stock market so long as no one is forced to participate.

[livingcommunities]

Interesting that a pure free market doesn't exist in any economy that I know of. So how can the proponents of it be so sure that it would work? What evidence do we have to show that it would be the best model? What assumptions are made that make free marketeers so sure that this fundamentalist approach would provide the ultimate economic system? Where is the proof that an unadulterated free market actually works beyond theory, mathematical models and philosophical ideas?

[amazingyou1uber]

@livingcommunities Hong Kong.

[livingcommunities]

@amazingyou1uber I don't think so.

[Aliothemage]

@livingcommunities

The same way we can know that Humans evolved from chimp-like ancestors without ever seeing the process take place.

For example there are various levels of economic freedom is the world and there is a very strong correlation with economic freedom and economic progress, and for the poor as well as the wealthy.

You can see as much in the annual Economic Freedom of the World Report at "freetheworld. com"

[coffeescup]

@Aliothemage That was a very illogical statement.  Saying we have evidence that supports a theory of something that ALREADY happened is different than a prediction for the future.

[Aliothemage]

@coffeescup

Umm, I AM talking about things that happened in the past... You don't think we can compare how more-free economies fare compared to less-free economies when looking back at history?

I didn't even mention anything about predicting the future.

[coffeescup]

@Aliothemage See last statement. We've never had a totally free market. That is what the video above mentions. Watch it. It will help ;)

[Aliothemage]

Like I said before, there doesn't NEED to be a perfect free market to know that free market policies work best, just like we don't need to see a perfect circle to know that the closer you get to a perfect circle, the more perfectly round it is.

For that matter, we've never had a "perfect" socialist or communist economy either, but we can know how well those socialist and communist policies work even without seeing them implemented "perfectly".

[Aliothemage]

@coffeescup

The fact is that the more-free an economy is the better it does. Take a look at the annual Freedom of the World Report at freetheworld(.)com It shows that the freest economies have the highest income, faster income growth, wealthier poor populations, less corruption, more civil freedoms, less environmental degradation, longer life expectancy, and more life satisfaction.

Hong Kong currently has the freest economy in the world, followed by Singapore, New Zealand, and Switzerland.

[coffeescup]

@Aliothemage Switzerland is highly regulated and has such safety nets as subsidized health insurance: bad example.  Singapore, on the other hand, is a good example. Yes, they have a quickly growing economy with literally no environmental regulation or safety net. They also have the highest rate of suicide! You are free to go there if you want. I never advocated a completely socialist environment and didn't mention communism at all. I also don't use those terms interchangeably.

[Aliothemage]

@coffeescup

Switzerland has a "highly regulated" market compared to what? They have the 15th LEAST regulated economy in the world according to IMF and World Bank data. And so what if they have subsidized health insurance? There are NO first world nations without some sort of big national health care system. Even b4 Obamacare over 50% of medical in the US were paid for with tax payer money...

[Aliothemage]

And what is the baloney about Singpore's environmental degradation? According to what standard? According to the "Happy Planet Index" they have the 49th best which is better then Sweden, Germany, Finland, France, England, Japan, and many others. Just check it on Wikipedia.

And no, Singapore doesn't have a high suicide rate, its lowers then the US's, Denmark's Norway's Canada's France's, ect.

And guess what! They live longer and pay less for health care and have lower infant mortality!

[biankajeg]

Excessive Government Regulation allowed maddoff to swindle/? Allowed crazy incomrehensible insidiously profitable derivative investments that collapsed like the vodoo ghost nothing house of cards that they were? I guess yes means no now and black is white - this guy is running the animal farm

[msduggan]

This guy is nuts. "Government entanglement" in education was a cause of the current situation? What illegal substance is he smoking? The problem is that financial institutions and government regulators were in thrall to a theory of reality that was in fact wildly out of whack with reality. The idea that unregulated financial markets would be self-correcting is fundamentally at fault. Nicholas Nassim Taleb (of "The Black Swan") understands this much better than Mr. Thiel.

[gkgreger]

2) I'm support a group that wants to End this Immoral Financial System called Globalization (where only profit matters) and return back to a FDR Style Government where People matter! where there is lots of Small Businesses Entrepreneurs, good paying jobs and wages, affordable homes-rent-food-health care. Affordable living conditions. Good High Tech Training Programs for young people & lots of opportunity for every. We must take our Government back! Google: LaRouchePAC Home

[gkgreger]

1) We are all living under allot of stress. Our idiot Treasonous Government is working for Wall Street which is run by Immoral Insane men. There only interested in profit & money. They don't care about the American people. They care about Money & Profit and Themselves. They use the American people to maintain there comfortable lifestyles! There IMMORAL and CORRUPT as hell! Our Government has forgotten its job, which is to Governing & taking very good care of its citizens.

[HeadTater]

It is not the government's job to govern us. It is not their job to take care of us. The only functions the government has are to 1) provide for the common defense (ie military for defensive matters only) 2) handle matters that would not otherwise be taken care of because there is not profit to be made on it and no private entities step up 3) defend and guarantee our rights. Ours is a government for and by the people. We command it. It does not command us.

[HeadTater]

You mention researching products for safety. What says a third party can't do it for you? You already accept the FDA's word as a guarantee of safety. Companies like JD Power have an interest in only giving honest reviews. Companies pay them to review or they operate on a subscription basis. In either case, reviewers lose money after bad reviews. People will stop trusting them and subscriptions will be dropped or their seal of approval will not be trusted and companies will stop paying them.

[knucklesandwichanarc]

That's it keep on worshiping at the market of free-enterprise. "Moneytheism" naturalizes and legitimizes inequalities.

[MeBoReDsOiLoGiN]

he's right we haven't had a free market in a couple decades... i hate these idiots blaming capitalism

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@MeBoReDsOiLoGiN what about the oil spill? should have regulated, or not?

[browbill]

The "sound minded" economists on the scene currently are the very people who steered us into this mess. The problem with Globalization is that these econmomists are too busy fantasising about a perfect global economic system, and not seeing that most of these countries economies are not even compatable to begin with. Selective fair trade is workable, but they currently have a global race to the bottom, with companies looking for the cheapest labor and lowest enviormental standards.

[louiethegreater]

True browbill: Free Trade has never existed, never will as long as there are Nation States.

[louiethegreater]

Right again browbill, Politican Internationalism is these folks real goal. Globalism is rideing on the vehicle of Free Trade.

[browbill]

What has caused the economic turmoil is the exact oppisite of what this guy is suggesting. Low tarrifs, lop-sided trade deals, lack of protection for American jobs, and class warefare against the middle-class by the elite have caused this. As they were robbing the system, the true extent of the damage was covered up by artifically inflating the economy with debt. Globalization (unfair trade) is killing our economy.

[jimbob6986]

The problem with your argument is that no sound minded economist would agree with you. Neither liberal, socialist nor conservative. Yes there are fundamental problems with globaliisation, but these arise from corporatism, not free trade.

[shovelcharge]

Why don't people have the brains to see that America was never laissez-faire? Why can't they see the massive government regulation we had since the early 1900's until now, and that it keeps growing?

[StevenJames1010]

this guy is absolutely right and every comment i've read is absolutely wrong

[willwkrueger]

this asshole's claiming that what went wrong was caused by too much "govt entanglement in these like education"

libertarians will always say we dont have a truly free market because we never have and we never will. interests are being served, and now wallstreet has shown us wat the free market fundemtalists worship self interest and blind faith in the benevolence of the 'invisibile hand' or do they know full well that their policies serve first and foremost to legitimize&protect class dominance

[mikezephyr]

the parallels between free market fundamentalism as you rightly phrase it and religious absurdity are striking. after all the title of this video is keeping faith in the free market- an invisible hand that 'naturally' orders the distribution of wealth sounds like another invisible man that magically justified social inequality in feudalism.

[willwkrueger]

Feudilism is a great historical parallel for both its imperial & social implications. In China, where I grew up, feudilism is their history but remains just under the surface of discourse in a deeply ironic way. as China has become capitlist &industry has become privatized workers have lost the once good social health care & inequality has boomed the 'middle class' in reality the richest 15% the myth of capitalism as a reflection of freedom is dispelled as ppl recognize 'feudal' stratifification

[mikezephyr]

the more things change, the more the stay the same. china, a perhaps russia as well, is a brilliant example of how a class society passes through feudalism into a bourgeois one within a rather short period.

the transition from one class ruling to another is revolutionary though, no doubt. but when 10% of society owns and runs the other 75% (as it does in the west), it's almost comical if it weren't tragic.

[Invirtuo]

It's irrelevant who runs what as long as absolute incomes of all socio-economic classes are rising. Relative disparity is a Communist mind-trick that is essentailly meaningless. The Neanderthals had a roughly even distribution of wealth yet I would not advise regressing to that in order for "equality"

[shumich]

That's incredible. I took a Modern China class but we never really came to that conclusion. Then again, the class really cut off before the capitalistic reforms. It really is a myth to believe that capitalism always equals equality and freedom. What Milton Friedman and his ilk fail to recognize are two things. The first is the fact that business interferes w/ gov. frequently. Second is that the two cooperate more than they conflict. It would be nice if people could recognize this.

[Invirtuo]

You obviously have never read Milton Friedman (kind of like Naomi Klein). Friedman was very cognizant of governement and big business colluding. In fact it was one of his central arguments for breaking the influence of government over the private sector. Friedman's answer was to emasculate the government in its dealings with private firms e.g reduce ability to confer favours etc.

[shumich]

Friedman sucks. I've listened to him speak many a time. The reason he is so successful is because of "THE LEASING OF ACADEMIA".

Who funded Friedman's research? You got it, that's right, big corporations. And big businesses public relations department, big media, sold his economic ideologies hook line and sinker to folk like you.

For example, your definition is very narrow. Otherwise, you'd realize that you're not "free". Your a debt slave just like every other US citizen. How much debt?

[Invirtuo]

No free-market economist ever said the free market results in equality. In fact, an essential attribute of Capitalism is the existence of inequality. Who cares? Bill Gates has much more money than me but he facilitated me in being able to use my computer. I don't begrudge his wealth, actually I applaud it. It's a mark of his service to society.

Capitalism is a consequence of Freedom, not the other way round. Freedom always results in Capitalism. Complete freedom would lead to Anarcho-Capitalism

[shumich]

If you knew the story of Bill Gates, you'd realize that it was mostly LUCK that gave him his wealth. He was at the right place at the right time.

If he wouldn't have done it someone else would have. Linux and Apples actually run far superior to Vista and sometimes XP. Look at ME! You would have had your computer to use even if Gates was never born. BTW, he was born into a very wealthy family.

Have you ever heard of words like "meritocracy"? Did you ever see the movie "There Will be Blood"?

[shumich]

"Capitalism is a consequence of Freedom"

Wow, that's hilarious. Capitalism was born in colonialism and slavery. The British Empire and other capitalist nation slaughtered and subjugated half of the world in their quest for "free markets".

Seriously, think it over. More people were killed in the name of "freedom" than were "slavery". Hence the Iraqi conflict of the present. More Iraqis killed than under 30 plus years of Saddam. Hypocrisy.

[Invirtuo]

Ok yeah whatever. That was Corporatism and Mercantilism. You have a misteaken view of what Capitalism. Capitalism is merely private ownership of the means of production. Subjugating people has nothing to do with Capitalism. You know like...Ice Cream has nothing to do with golf...but you could play golf and eat an ice cream~~~~~~~~

Think logically. Explain how you could prevent Capitalism from appearing in a free world? How? If there is no central coercive force it's impossible to preclude

[knucklesandwichanarc]

Oh yeah, sure, you're one of those people who attribute everything that is good to some amorphous concept you call "capitalism". I've heard clowns even talk about capitalism being in ancient Greece. The truth is that you've got that mindset, just like religious blinders (moneytheism), that sees "capitalism" as "perfect".

Have you ever heard of the British East Indian Company? In capitalism "virtually all goods and services can be bought". Slavery (debt slaves included) is ultimate capitalism.

[Invirtuo]

No I have very definite view of Capitalism. You are correct however, there is a very nebulous conception of what Capitalism is (just as modern socialism is difficult to define)

Capitalism is free exchange and private ownership within the context of a free society (laissez-faire as opposed to the Keynesian style pseudo-Capitalism we have now)

[Invirtuo]

Ever since the beginning of a Civilization there has existed Capitalism. In the past the capital structure of economies were so negligible that it is known as the pre-Capitalist era. So one is entitled to call Ancient Greece Capitalist, but as there were no "means of production" the term is inapplicable to an extent.

[Invirtuo]

British East India Company was a de facto government entity, especially since its governemnt granted charter made monopolistic. It's as much an example of private enterprise as the NHS or Amtrak are.

There cannot be slavery in a FREE society, by definition. You have a shocking disability in compartmentalizing. Reminds of Hitler blaming Communism for the Reichstag burning...Completely irrational

[knucklesandwichanarc]

Have you ever heard of "consumer capitalism"?

How about "crony capitalism=lemon socialism"? Can you tell me what "libertarian socialism" is?

Until you expand your vocabulary, you will never be able to understand truths that disprove your moneytheistic creed.

1) Why does the largest capitalist nation in history (the US) have the largest trade deficit in history to Communist China?

2) How did the US go from the largest CREDITOR nation in the world to the largest DEBTOR nation?

[Invirtuo]

I can't defend consumer Capitalism because a) It originates from big business and governemnt collusion b) It's a pure Keynesian demand-side phenomenon i.e a result of far-left ideology.

You really like using journalistic (read pseudo-intellectual) terms. Crony Capitalism is the unfortunate consequence of interference in the free-market by the governement. Lemon Socialism is the rescue of failing comapnies. All of these are negative, all of these prove the importance of a FREE-market

[Invirtuo]

Nothing disproves Capitalism. However, the Calculation and incentive problems disprove Socialism comprehensively.

China Communist? In name only. It's liberalized rapidly. It's really a state-Capitalsit country. It has a flexible and cheap labour force with a developed capital structure. Of course the US will have a trade and balance of payments deficit with it. That trade deficit underpins US living standards and can continue indefinitely as long as the US can run an overall trade surplus

[Invirtuo]

2) It might have something to do with gradually abandoning lthe free-market

[knucklesandwichanarc]

You look like a debt slave to me. And you call yourself Protesto. Your real enemy is the corporations who stick up your butt on a daily basis. Especially Fox News.

[Invirtuo]

What's a debt slave? People voluntarily enter into debt obligations. You may not like it, but remember words have exact meanings.

Corporations make life brilliant. Anyone who exchanges something with me that I want more than my money is good person/institution.

[knucklesandwichanarc]

Sure, you don't think that consumers are ever deceived by advertising agencies. And credit card companies have never had "hidden fees" and fine print.

Corporations lie to people all the time with their "public relations departments". And they and their buddies own all of big media. That's why big media says very few critical things of big business. And big media hides the fact that big government, big media, and big business cooperate more than they conflict. They're so in bed together.

[knucklesandwichanarc]

Yeah, people just "voluntarily" enter debt obligations. You can't get anything good without credit. Because salaries generally suck. People barely own what they have (houses, cars, etc.).

People are so in debt they're not FREE to leave their jobs or stand up to the bosses/employers.

In the US, people work crazy amounts of hours producing bullshit like junkmail just so they can pay their debt. Then, they're never "FREE" to actually get to know family, friends, and neighbors.

Freedom, ya right

[Invirtuo]

Utopia's don't exist. How do you define crap salaries? Americans are in the top ten best remunerated people in the world. The first rule of economics is that scarcity applies to infinite wants. Paradise on earth is impossible. We have to do the best we can.

Capitalism has proven to be the best provider for the masses. Centrally planning has been abject failure every time it was implemented. There is simply no alternative to Capitalism and Freedom if you want a decent living standard

[knucklesandwichanarc]

Did I ever say that utopias ever have or ever will exist? Hell no. You're putting words in my mouth again. Shut your mouth. People don't have to have "infinite wants". That's what spirituality, philosophy, literature, music, sports, and other activities help human beings to sate. That sense of infinite want.

You're describing consumer capitalism. It's nasty. And if you'd shut your mouth and listen for a change, you'd realize that capitalism doesn't have to be so wicked.

[Invirtuo]

No, it is a firm rule that humanity will ALWAYS have infinite wants (not necessarily for themselves)

I am not particularly in favour of the current Keynesian/neco-classical economic model. It is better than the Left's ruinous alternatives. I would like an Austrian, anarchic-market economy, where spontanoeous order would render the demand versus supply argument irrelevant

[knucklesandwichanarc]

Are you content right now? Have you ever in your life been content? Believing that humanity will always have infinite wants is what you're projecting onto the world. I want my neighborhood to be nice (it is BTW - grew up in a bad one). I want to get along with my fellow human beings and help those who will appreciate that help. Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

That Austrian school crap is so corporate friendly it makes me sick. It justifies every abuse. Like buying out gov. for $.

[knucklesandwichanarc]

Have you ever heard of "consumerism". How about theories of "mass consumption". Have you ever heard of Lizabeth Cohen, Thorstein Veblen, Christopher Lasch, Jackson Lears, and other Post-WWII historians? These authors deal with things beyond the scope of economics like, culture, cognition, social institutions, and other variables that the Austrian School assumes to be "ceteris paribus".

Look up "critical theory". The Austrian School is too corporate friendly. It supports rich lazy bastards.

[Invirtuo]

Ceteris Paribus is an argumentative term meaning "all other things being the same". It's like the first word you come across in every economics textbook.

Fuck off moron

[knucklesandwichanarc]

I know what ceteris paribus is. In fact, I've just essentially told you that it is the worst myth in the social sciences in general and economics in particular.

Everything is connected. Culturally values like religion, sexuality, family, friendships, and others influence who people behave economically. These are deeply intertwined with supply and demand.

Using only "dependent" and "independent" variable in a "ceteris paribus" situation nearly always results in nomothetic reductionsim.

[knucklesandwichanarc]

How many people are locked in prisons in the US? More than in Communist China. Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) sees to it that more get locked up.

How much debt does the average US consumer have? More than any other citizens in the world. That's not freedom pal.

Doesn't the US, which is the largest capitalist nation in the world, have the largest trade deficit in history to Communist China? Yes, and it's all because of consumer capitalism. Very, very sad.

[knucklesandwichanarc]

You idiot. Are you ever going to learn how to listen to other people? Honestly, everything I say gets misconstrued into 1950s propaganda bullshit. Grow the fuck up and listen. People are getting screwed every day by the rich and powerful. And your ideas justify their bullshit. With your official state religion of "anti-communism". There's way too much management in this country. And not enough workers. Well paid workers. The managers are the real bureaucrats. They don't produce anything.

[Invirtuo]

All the problems you lament would be corrected by market forces if they were allowed operate. Can't have your cake and eat it, pal.

[knucklesandwichanarc]

So market forces are going to punish a company that sells me poisonous food that killed me. Sorry, I don't want to wait for the market to correct things like salmonella and mad cow's disease. And I don't have the time to research every little item I buy in the grocery store. I do, however, research nearly all the disposable goods I buy. I wish more consumers would do this if only because higher quality products would dominate inferior ones that tend to be marketed to death.

[Invirtuo]

Fine vote left-wing, I don't care. You're not Irish

[knucklesandwichanarc]

Right, my grandfather Breslin, who worked in the Anthracite coal mines of central Pennsylvania and died of black lung wasn't Irish. The state of Pennsylvania created the Pennsylvania state police to put down the United Mine Workers of which my grandfather was a part. They went through hell.

Yeah, I've read that "crony capitalism" is getting out of control in Ireland. Maybe you've just been exposed to the corporate propaganda that your government and businesses produce to shape your thoughts.

[Invirtuo]

The PM is my neighbour. Fucking great guy and he's got everyone's interests at heart. It's morons like you that make life difficult.

We have a long history of crony capitalism in Ireland. However, thanks to free-maket reform the situation has improved greatly.

Sympathies to your grandpa but nobody defends police brutality. chat ya

[HeadTater]

Private companies have a vested interest in creating a safe product. If you are dead, you can't spend much money with them. Also, killing off customers tends to get a reaction from the media and society in general. If their product harms someone, word will get out and people will stop patronizing them. Besides, government action generally comes late. The response to disease outbreaks generally comes after people have gotten sick. Recalls are mandated usually after people are hurt.

[DSowns1111]

Freedom is the ability to have voluntary action, something that a free market contains.

[ComradeSephiroth]

And there's another issue: income and wealth inequality has increased dramatically since 1980 while hourly pay increases have lagged way behind productivity growth for about 75% of the working population.

Since the Reagan years, the pie has become more concentrated in fewer hands. And the radical libertarian free marketers want to make the system even more unequal than it is now.

[tothemax01]

@ComradeSephiroth Equality is only possible if people are equal, and people are not. And the lower class are not 'the working population', they are the lower class of the working population. You wish for the money to be taken out of the hands of the rich, and given to the poor. They respond to this in turn: they run, they weasel around the laws via corruption (rich are smart), they stop working. Everyone is then worse of. Your ideas are wrong and are exceptionally good at generating misery.

[allgoo19]

Wishful thinker, blind to the reality.

[USAJuly4th1776]

Universities in the USA are the world's very best, because they are competitive, they follow free-market rules... our public high schools are often sub-standard education-wise because there is excess regulation by teacher's unions who have the wrong priorities and social engineering that sacrifice effective education with far-left Marxist indoctrination, also called the liberal agenda.

[willwkrueger]

Universities are 1000 times more marxist in their curriculum than high schools. teachers are marxists, if they were theyd be professors. our public schools are in terrible shape in part because they are more segregated now by race and class than they have been since 1970's. we have seen money leave poor urban centers to suburbs and so that great income disparity is the root cause.

capitalism values hegemony, which hinders education. hence, u feel threatned by the left.

[USAJuly4th1776]

Communists and anti-capitalists jump all over the USA every single time our economy goes through a self-correction, they are cynical jackals.

[stuffisgd]

Thats some powerfull stupid.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

the piss poor system that passes for education in the US

[stratvic]

Lets call it indoctrination.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

the soviet system was closer to indoctrination, its just a poorly collected hodge podge of competing and contradictory policies and theories.

[baseballnolie34]

I repeat, how is that remotely responsible for a crisis caused by speculation and poor risk evaluation?

That's a bullshit talking point being used to evade the fact that market failures helped cause this.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

it is a bullshit talking point, meant to expose the fact that people involved in the market don't understand the market, and far form a market failure causing this, the market hasn't been free from regulation since the 1930's so if anything the failure of the current market is a reflection on the failure of the people who have imposed regulations on the market.

Markets are supopsed to go down from time to time, proping your market up is what caused this level of calamity for all.

[magichandpuppet]

this is definitely not a free market. The government has been serving their true masters which is the privately-owned federal reserve. As long as the federal reserve and their cronies have been calling the shots, the market has not been free, but held captive in excessive government involvement and corruption.

[mikezephyr]

never was and can never be. free enterprise exists solely in the speeches of american politicians and the owning class. call it a bourgeois wet dream.

[magichandpuppet]

oh man, that is funny :) I know what you mean... a bourgeois wet dream indeed!!! It's interesting how some politicians preach of free market ideals while others preach of socialist ideals. But, low and behold, they are all (most of them) on the same team which supports the oligarchy!

[mikezephyr]

god dammit yes! i mean right now, the arch freemarkeeter, george w. bush is marshalling the full economic strength of the united states government to ensure the financial and automotive industry keeps producing, keeps accumulationg capital, seeks and delivers profit for the wealthy few.

it's hypocrisy on a superficial level, but in actuality it reveals the essential role and function of the modern state: to serve and protect the class interests of the owning class. democracy? huh what's that?