Dear Mr Guided by truth, I am not Charismatic or even Pentecostal, however I see that you are using 1 Cor 13:8 underhandedly to try and prove that Knowledge and Prophesies have ceased, In the Greek Paul states that tongues will cease or peeter out, but Knowledge and Prophesy will cease because the perfect will cause it to cease. It is obvious to any believing Christian that we still Prophesy (speak forth the word) and Knowlge still manifests itself through the Holy Spirit in the church today.
@zoltanapril42 We are careful to make the distinction between the GIFT of knowledge and knowledge itself. Speaking forth the Word as you call prophecy happens when we speak forth the already written down Word of God. What does not happen is the gift of prophecy where men are given a NEW revelation. It is the same with knowledge. We receive knowledge now when we read the word of God. The Spirit teaches us through the Word. Knowledge does not come any longer by a gift but by the Word of God.
Togues has obviously ceased but for the Pentecostals that still practice this for tongues to be Biblical according to Paul women weren't allowed to speak in tongues 1Cor.14:34 and this contradiction goes on every week! The being filled with the Holy Ghost is setting the world up to open themselves up to allow spirits in. The gift of the Holy Ghost is salvation! There are so many other contradictions in that movement that its scary.
You use 1Corinthians 13:8 to show that tongues and the other spiritual gifts will cease. It also says that knowledge will vanish away... so do we no longer have knowledge? Taking one partial verse out of context is a dangerous practice.
It is not "knowledge" that has vanished, it is the "gift" of knowledge. Surely if the only way to gain knowledge was through a spiritual gift that would mean that knowledge didn't exist BEFORE Acts 2! Even the Spiritual gift of knowledge was not given to everyone, yet everyone still had access to knowledge. While the gift of knowledge no longer exists, we all can gain knowledge and we do so through the instruction of the Word of God.
The things that we know now are partial things because in our "finiteness" we can't know all the things of God. But when He comes back for his church all the things that we know in part, will not be needed, such as prophecy, tongues and the other gifts because we will be with the One who gives the gifts! As I Cor. 13:12 says...and I paraphrase, "Right now I just know some things of God, but then, when I see Him face to face will I KNOW Him even as He knows me."
Your "paraphrase" actually changed the meaning of the text to support your theory. There is NO reference to "Him" in that verse.
1 Cor 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
NIV
I would caution you against quoting your own words and pretending they mean the same thing as God's Word does. If you have to change the wording to prove your point, you might want to rethink it.
@ElderChuckAnderson That is not a possible exegesis. Jesus is never referred to as "that which is perfect" any where else in scripture. The greek denotes a "coming to perfection", or a "purpose fulfilled".
If there was a cessation of the Spirit of God during the so called Dark Ages before 1906, then there would be a cessation of the gifts of the Spirit, since they come part and parcel with the Holy Ghost. So with the advent of the latter rain, it would stand to reason that the gifts would again come into effect.
The scripture in I Cor 13:8 is speaking of the rapture, for in verse 10 it says, "But when that which is perfect is come,..." Now you tell me, who is that which is perfect?
You can't have it both ways. You admit that the gifts ceased in your first paragraph and yet in your second you are claiming they will not cease until the rapture. Scripture does NOT teach that they cease but then return again. Either they are needed until the rapture or they ceased. Both can not be true.
No one is THAT which is perfect. Jesus is a person not an object. If it were Jesus it would have said He WHO is perfect, not "that." That which is perfect is the Holy Scriptures.
I see nothing in the context that supports that. I however, DO have other Scripture (James 1:22-25) that refers to the Word of God as perfect AND likens it to a mirror, just as was done in 1 Cor 13. Besides, if the gifts were going to stay until the return of Christ, there would really be no reason for Paul to warn them they were going to cease yet his point here is they are arguing over something that is going to disappear soon anyway.
You must not confuse the Spirit Himself with the gifts of the Spirit. The Spirit is indeed very powerful, he just empowers us differently today. For now we gain knowledge, wisdom and revelation through the Word of God which is living and active and very powerful. The Spirit does indeed lead us into all truth and remember His Word is truth! If the gifts are still necessary then somehow the Word is lacking and I do not believe that to be true. It gives us all we need for life and godliness.
Thank you for this. I am studying and want to show my friends and loved ones how they are being taught false doctrine. I love them so much and know they are wonderful people who love the Lord but they are being coaxed into behaviors that are not correct. One thing I will do is send you tube videos to them. Will watch the other video you mentioned. Thank you and God bless you for your desire for the truth.
Hi Filolll -The reason knowledge (KN) is not added here is due to the PROGRESSIVE nature of annullment of KN. When we come to Christ and behlod Him as in a mirrow, our Earthly KN will begin disappering in the Light of heavenly KN. When we Finally see Him, the light of heavenly KN shall broaden in the Perfect day.Now we see in Part, then we shall see Fully. This is why the Lord shall wipe off tears from our eyes. Earthly KN shall Vanish. We shall not remember this filthy World any More!!..
why didnt the maker of this video complete 1 Cor 13:8. whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish---did knowledge pass away then too? i'm not a pentecostal, but if that's the only verse to use saying gifts ceased, at least use the whole verse. unless it takes away from your doctrine.
Please note that the topic of the video is not the biblical evidence for cessationism, but how history reveals that cessationsim is true. We cover the biblical evidence in another video titled Pentecostalism and the Cessation of the Gifts. In it you will find more Scriptural evidence and this entire verse used in context. We were staying on topic here, the rest of the passage does not take away from our position at all, which is obvious if you view our other video.
As I said, because it was not relevant to the discussion of tongues. We DO address that in our other video. This verse is speaking about the GIFTS of knowledge, tongues and prophecy and that is what ceased. Knowledge existed long before Acts chapter 2 and continues to exist today now we gain it through the study of God's Word, not some miraculous gift. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, and that applies for all time, even before the "gift of knowledge" existed.
I attended both a Baptist college and an AG college and have been exposed to both points of view. People are being brought to Jesus in both environments and walking away radically changed. I have heard about non-spiritual gift churches becoming spiritual gift churches. At the end of the day, what difference does it make? Why don't you keep preaching Jesus Christ crucified and try and figure out how we can go from a church divided to one united!
When the Corinthian church was abusing the spiritual gifts Paul did not write to the other churches to say leave them alone and lets just all get along. No, he wrote to the church that was in error and said:
1 Cor 12:1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant .
In 2 Corinthians 11 he chastised them for putting up with it when people preach another Jesus or another spirit and warns that such men are false apostles.
there are records of people speaking in toungues in every century. Most of the time the catholic church was the "mega church" so of course they were gonna try and stamp all that out. but study it out for yourself and you will find it. Pentecost is right. Praise God I'm a pentecostal!
This is a common argument that we have answered time and again. The fact is that the people throughout history who supposedly experienced glossolalia were in fringe segments that were not even doctrinally correct. These sects were dualists, agnostics and even polytheists. To suggest someone can believe falsely about God yet have his spiritual gift is nonsense. To read get the full answer to this argument visit our webesite guidedbytruth(dot)com(forwardslash)questionpenthistory(dot)php
Having bumped into juddgreg before,,, I am happy to say,,, VERY GOOD video,,,VERY GOOD ARGUMENT. I have been forced to write a small booklet called why I am not a Charismatic, instead of refuting Charismatic allegations of a line of charismatics back to the apostles and Jesus AND showing that pagans religions have always used Charismata,, I think I will mostly use your approach. Let the restoration founders prove the point for me. THANK YOU!!
You have NO Scripture to support such a claim. Not one passage in the entire Bible says that tongues are the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. Tongues simply can NOT be the evidence because there are many pagans that experience glossalia, and they don't even profess to have the Holy Spirit or believe in Jesus. Matthew chapter 7 is clear that miracles are NOT proof that a person is saved and 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is very clear that NOT every person will speak in tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To ONE...there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom... to ANOTHER speaking in different kinds of tongues,] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
tongues is the only way to let other ppl and urself know that u received the Holy Ghost. u cant go to heaven unless u are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (not that of the fake Trinity) and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
1st Corinthian 13:8 verse is taken out of context. I agree with some of the points in this video but I do believe the gifts are still active today. One would be a woman who was in prayer and was gifted with the entirety of the Italian Language. She could not only speak and translate but she could also write in perfect grammar.
The corinth verse says that when perfection comes, the imperfect will disappear. Perfection is the Holy Triune God. The gifts will cease at the 2nd Coming of Christ.
We have addressed these points in one of our other videos "Pentecostalism and the Cessation of the Spiritual Gifts" which talks about how the perfection was not Jesus but rather the complete Word of God. You can also find more information by visiting our website at guidedbytruth(dot)com.
Jimbo makes a great point the Gifts have not ceased and won't until Jesus returns. If they did why did Paul encourage his church to seek after them if they had ceased. If you apply the same logic here then the reformation is also false because they taught a message or gospel that had been perverted by the Catholic church. The reformation is only 400 years old and it is some of their off base teachings that have come against the use of the gifts today. Very poor video and poorer argument.
Paul specifically took the time to warn them the gifts were going to cease. If they weren't going to cease until Jesus came there was no need to actually say they were going to cease. That would be pointless and it is not what he said would happen. Jesus is not anywhere in the context of his statement. You can view our other videos or visit out website to learn about the context of the passage. The point of this video is that even Pentecostal history proves they had indeed ceased.
As for the reformation, the points made during the reformation were not "new" teachings. They were new to the Catholic Church but people held them outside of that church. Foxes Book of Martyr's and other history can testify to that fact because those who were being persecuted outside of the church held to true Biblical principles.
Having bumped into juddgreg before,,, I am happy to say,,, VERY GOOD video,,,VERY GOOD ARGUMENT. I have been forced to write a small booklet called why I am not a Charismatic, instead of refuting Charismatic allegations of a line of charismatics back to the apostles and Jesus AND showing that pagans religions have always used Charismata,, I think I will mostly use your approach. Let the restoration founders prove the point for me. THANK YOU!!
The "I said it isn't true" approach is not a compelling argument. Since you left no example of how a "fact" was taken out of context I have to deduce that you have no real proof to back up your accusation.
The cane break revival was before, the happenings in topeka, kansas. It's kind of strange considering he had never himself seen or heard of this "phenomenon", yet before this happened in Topeka and even before this happened in Los Angeles, the southern Appalachian peoples of Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee, were experiencing it. By the by, when (time period) does the bible say that the gifts were to cease?
I am not sure where you got your information but no one at the Cane Ridge (not break) Revival spoke in tongues. While they did "shake" and fall around and scream and shout (which are behaviors that have no basis in Scripture) they did not experience the same thing as those in Topeka Kansas, nor did the revival lead to a new teaching about the holy spirit baptism. Note that the Pentecostal churches themselves claim to come from the Topeka experience rather than this revival.
The gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking of tongues happened in Acts ch2. The reason for it was to convert the many people from various parts of the known world there at Jerusalem. Those who were moved were told to "repent and be baptized everyone of you in the of Jesus for the remission of sins" Acts 2:38. And Peter said further that the gift of tongues was available to all. God used the gift to convert-he is'nt the author of confusion: God does things in ordered fashion.
The Bible says the gift of the HOLY GHOST is given to all, NOT the gift of tongues. The Holy Ghost was given to all and He gave the gift of tongues only to some.
Acts 2:38 ye shall receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off
1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man...8For to ONE is given by the Spirit...10 TO ANOTHER divers kinds of tongues...11 dividing to every man severally as he will.
No. Pentecostals say their flailing around and babbling incoherently is from the Holy Ghost. WE say that is it not and prove it both historically (as in this video) and biblically (as in our other videos and on our website).
One look at any Benny Hinn service with the carnival like atmosphere of spiritual drunkeness, barking and disgraceful conduct is a sure clue to any Bible believing follower of Christ that it is all of the devil. Same for Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and the rest of the charlatans. It's all part of the end-time antichrist's soon reign on earth.
I don't go by what history states but what the word of God states. If you go by history, teaching salvation by works far out does salvation by grace because of the Catholic movement and the suppression of the truth revealed in God's word. The foundation of this doctrine is based on misinterpreted scripture and should be discarded.
That was only the one date that came to mind from my own studies. There are other dates that I will forward you when I don't have a funeral to preach. Yes it is a long way from 70AD but their is history of the spiritual gifts being in operation in the church since 70AD, if you are going to tell me I'm a heretic then you're information should be precise and correct. My own families roots in pentecostalism can be traced back to the early 1800's.
We also have an article on our site titled "Questions Regarding Pentecostal History" which addresses such claims. The charts that date back to closer to 70AD are filled with several gaps and many known heretical groups. They say groups such as the Albigenses spoke in tongues yet fail to mention that this same sect denied the resurrection! They are trying to change "history" to support their belief which is why you can't find their claims in a dictionary or history book.
Yes that is the date we have quoted on our website which also points out that they have little information about what actually took place. They did however, also claim that their experience was a renewal of Pentecost and that tongues were spoken "again" in the church. Read our article at guidedbytruth(dot)com titled "The History of the Pentecostal Movement" to see the exact quotes of R.G. Spurling their leader which prove this point. 1886 is still a long ways from 70 AD.
You do realize that this dictionary of Pentecostalism is not the only book that exists of evidence of times and dates and proclamations made by other preachers. I would look into the history of the Church Of God and the Fire Baptized Holiness Church. While compelling your historical overview is very limited in it's parameters.
The dictionary is not our only source. It is only used so much because it is accepted by Pentecostals as accurately portraying their history, therefore it is not a source that can be considered biased towards our views. We have studied many sources on this issue and do quote and address the Church of God on our website. We also quote many organization's websites in this video in which their historical statement agrees with our claims.
Never a biblical verse is taken ALONE to probe a theological idea. Is important to use two at least. The verse in 1Cor.3:8 is addresing the importance of love, and that there is an ending to all the world but love is eternal. READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER. Is ovious the lack of proper theological knowledge.
Note this video is on the history of the movement, not the theology. We have other videos addressing that and use more than just one verse. The information in this video simply confirms that fact that historically the gifts did cease something you did not deny or address in your comment.
By the first third of the 19th century, Puritanism as preached by Cotton Mather had collapsed, only 8 percent of Americans belonged to any religion. This led to a furor of Camp Meetings, many of denominations which are accepted today.
Joseph Smith was a sincere young man who lived in ''the burned over district'' led his people Westward. Many beleived in the speaking of tongues and had private meetings until older practitioners died and their
Why would Paul even write about spiritual gifts if these gifts would come to pass? The restoration of the Church is happening NOW! Catholicism cut the Holy Spirit off. No record of that ever happening, but that is my discernment. It is time for either the traditional Churches to step up or they will fall off and close their doors, which that is a fact that is happening now. Get baptized with the laying of hands and recieve the Holy Spirit.
Why would Paul bother warning us they were going to cease if they were going to last until Jesus came back again? The reason he wrote about them was because they were using them and needed to do so correctly. They were necessary only because they did not have the completed written Word of God like we have today. Paul said they would cease, not fade away but then return later so any supposed "restoration" is not grounded in Scripture and therefore not from God.
Historical records indicate that the abundant exercise of the Charismatic gifts may have diminished somewhat after the post New Testament era — especially in the dark ages, due to the years of inaccessibility of scripture to the common people in their own language. But there is much history to substantiate that the supernatural gifts were never absent from the church. Scores of statements to this effect were recorded by church leaders such as Irenaeus, who wrote around A.D. 150
Show us in Scripture where the gifts will diminish. The idea that they DIMINISHED because the Scripture was not accessible makes NO sense because when the gifts were FIRST given there was NO access to ANY NT Scripture because it had not been written yet! So we can see, access to the Scripture would not diminish their existence but rather it was the reason for it. As for any supposed evidence of their existence in history see our article "Pentecostal History Question" which refutes that claim.
Not why I am posting a comment but maybe more that someone may do there own studying. I am sure the authors of this video what you to focus on the men and there talants on lack of but you must always go to GOD's Word for the answer. If you don't believe GOD works through his people today then be convinced by the word. If you do believe be convinced by the word. Study for yourself make your own mind up and seek understanding by understanding the argument. Peace in Christ Jesus....
Guided By Truth is dedicated to teaching that Scripture alone is our source of truth and we always encourage others to study it. There are actually very FEW Scriptures that speak about the gifts yet Pentecostal churches are based upon those select passages and ignore the others that say they will cease and are not given to everyone. Scripture reveals that God working through us is an action, not an experience, nor would any experience we have be contradicted by the fruits which He gives us.
We have not done so. However, If you are going to comment on a video please comment on the content which is the history of the churches that were founded teaching that the gifts had ceased but now teach something different. It is about how this teaching can't trace its roots back to Acts 1 but rather traces it to these men; Parham and Seymour. Either they lied then, or the leaders are lying now, but in each case their message has not been consistent with Scripture or history.
Your comments regarding 1 Corinthians 13:8 is taken out of context. The end of Prophecy (to speak forth, preaching, Tongues(languages), and knowledge (carnal knowledge) WILL cease when the perfect one (Jesus)comes (2nd coming). We will not need these when we have left the carnal (our current bodies of fleshand bone). If you will continue to read down to verse 12 the Bible speaks of how we are now looking at everything in a dark mirror. We do not see everything as it really is but we will someday
The verse was not taken out of context and if you visit our website you will see we have addressed this in great detail and with much Scriptural support. We are not seeing everything in a dark mirror, but they were because they only had a "partial" mirror, the incomplete Scripture. In James 1:25-27, he (like Paul) says the Word of God is "perfect" and is a "mirror" for us. Looking into that "PERFECT law" (mirror) is what gives us freedom and by doing that we will be blessed in everything.
walter martin [author of kingdom of the cults, one of the worlds foremost authority on cults until his death] was a southern baptist, in his doctoral thesis on the 1st 500 years of the church proved the gifts never ceased. furthermore, he said on numerous occasions that the gifts have never ceased and could be traced from pentecost all the way to his death.
Well, if he taught that, he was wrong. You must be careful for there are many questions surrounding his credentials. I could not find any evidence that His thesis exists let alone any "proof" of what was supposedly in it. He is actually on record as saying during one of his Bible Answer Man programs, "My Master's thesis? Let's see, Oh, my Doctoral thesis. I didn't do a Master's thesis."
Concerning 1 Cor 13:8 - put it back in context. The key is in verse 10, which says 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
This refers to prophecies, tongues, knowledge mentioned in verse 8.
However, this was written after Jesus time on Earth - so unless I've missed the 2nd coming already - THAT WHICH IS PERFECT HAS NOT COME YET.
Besides that, what about healing and other gifts? I have personally been healed, and witnessed many healings.
That which is perfect is the Bible, not Jesus. Nothing in the context suggests that it is. Please see our other videos and visit our website to find out more.
It isn't the Bible either - it refers to the resurrection, when we will receive perfect understanding after the 2nd coming of Jesus. Why does it matter what the 20th century Pentecostals started out with? The early years of the movement was a time of revelation and learning. However it happened, it eventually resulted in alignment with New Testament teaching, including Oneness. All I care about is my church teaching today matches the scriptures; how we got there should not be used against us.
It matters a lot because if the gifts had not ceased then the founders were liars. If they had ceased then they were still liars because the bible never says the gifts will cease and then return again. Historically we see that the gifts had ceased and even the founders admitted that. Now the churches lie to cover that up.
Whether or not you agree, the Bible IS perfect and is the fulfillment of this verse which is proven Scripturally and historically.
Didn't the Pentecostal church split over doctrinal issues..such as Jesus only, trinitarian, some believe tongues is eveidence of the spirit, others don't, spirit language, some believe prayer language, some don't..Pentecostalism contradicts itself too much..
You do know that Jesus in the bible is never referred to THAT....Also in Mark 16:20 says that 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it." when you speak in tongues what word are you confirming, the people back then didn't have the complete written word...cont.
Heres my question to you...obviously back then they knew in part. Do we know in Part today? Did they have the complete written word back(OT and NT)? Do we have have both today? If tongues is the evidence why didn't Paul who dedicated a whole chapter on Tongues and spiritual gifts not mention once they were the evidence of the Spirit?
The Bible, not Charles Parham, first said that tongues was the evidence of the Holy Ghost baptism. Acts Chapter 10, how did they know Cornelius' house had received it? 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
That passage simply says that those people were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. It does NOT say that tongues is always the evidence of Spiritual baptism. In fact the Scripture tells us that the Spirit will only give SOME people the gift of tongues.
1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given... 8 TO ONE there is given...the message of wisdom...TO ANOTHER speaking in different kinds of tongues...he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Everyone who receives the Holy Ghost speaks in tongues. 1 Cor chapter 12 refers to the gifts of the spirit, of which one is tongues and interpretation. This is different, this is when tongues is used in operation in the church, in connection with interpretation. You are correct that not everyone receives this gift. But it is not the same thing as speaking in tongues upon receiving of the Holy Ghost.
The Bible NEVER makes a distinction between a gift of tongues and some other tongue which is the supposed evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. That is another LIE propagated to explain away the APPARENT contradiction that is raised when we show how not everyone will speak in tongues. The Bible speaks simply of tongues (which are known human languages) and it says that not everyone will speak them. So you are wrong. If you want to understand more please visit our website.
My question to anyone here is why the focus on speaking in tongues? There are 9 gifts mentioned in 1 cor 12, 5 mentioned in Mrk 16, 3 in Joel 2, so why is it that everyone that beleives the gifts are still here, they focus on tongues and they all pray for tongues when that is not the only gift and no where in scripture does any of the apostles say specifically tongues is the evidence of the spirit and they never mention that Gal 5 22-23 mentions the fruits of the spirit.
A proper study on Pentecostalism would have to include many centuries of Church History than you quote on this channel because Pentecostalism was born at Pentecost.
Pentecostalism has been manifested in many different regions of the world, in every century, during the last 19oo years of Christianity in spite of the horrible resistance it has endured. If spiritual gifts have failed and ceased, then knowlege must have vanished away, as proven by uninspired report.
Pentecostalism was not born at Pentecost and this video shows that to be a fact. To learn more please read the most recent article on our website (guidedbytruth(dot)com) as it addresses your false claims that the gifts have never ceased. It is titled "Question Regarding Pentecostal History" and deals with the false historical claims that there were always people who had the gifts and exposes the hypocrisy that causes within the churches that were founded claiming the gifts had been "restored".
There is a difference between the GIFT of knowledge and knowledge itself. We still gain knowledge but now it is done through the reading of God's Word, there is no gift needed for that.
To suggest that the GIFT was necessary to gain knowledge suggests UNTIL Pentecost knowledge was also unattainable. The GIFTS have ceased, but our means for gaining knowledge, prophecy and wisdom are still here, but they come, not from a miraculous gift but from the study and adherence to God's Word.
Guidedbytruth with all respect, once again, I strongly believe we need to read the whole chapter and not just those few lines. It doesn't literally mean the gifts will cease in any time. If like you said gifts have ceased how are you going to full fill Mark 16:15-18 and those are the words of Jesus the Lord and Savior. Penecostal is wrong if they say it has ceased and come back, because throughout the world the gifts existed through history, like Roman Catholic Charismatic, who believe gifts.
As we have stated, we deal with the entire context in our other videos and at our website. It has been addressed, but is not here because this video is about the history of the movement, not the doctrine. The founders of Pentecostalism were also not wrong when they said the gifts had left, for they lived in a time when they knew that NO TRUE CHURCH anywhere practiced them nor had practiced them for quite some time. Thats why their teaching was considered "new."
Guidbytruth, sir or madam i think you are taking words out of context. 1cor 13:8 is talking about how love remainds forever even after Christ's comeing. But when God comes back we wouldn't need prophesy (because it will all be full filled) and we wouldn't need tongues (because we wouldn't need it because we will be walking side by side with God) Do people misuse tongues? yes! But God is all powerful and you can't deny such things exist this day and age specially if one listens to Him and ask Him
Nothing has been taken out of context here. Pentecostal churches trace their roots to these men and these teachings which said Pentecostal baptism disappeared before the middle ages and returned in 1901. No Scripture says the gifts will cease but return again. 1 Corinthians 13 says they will cease, and history proves that they did. Even Pentecostal history supports that fact. Please see our other videos to deal with the Scriptural aspect of this doctrine.
Nice work. Having come from a Pentecostal background, I'm especially familiar with the small subset of scripture and selective history that is most commonly propagated in Pentecostal churches.
Very interesting! Pentecostal theology believes in cessationism but now they change their theology. The truth is not a changing truth! There is also no evidence of the gifts comming back after they cease in the Bible either!! Pentecostalism is a false religion!
This verse is not a time line. This was written to the Corinthian church. The fact that the testimony of Christ "was confirmed" in THEM, so that THEY did not lack any spiritual gift is not a time-line suggesting it applies to us all. Later, in this very letter, Paul warns these same people that these gifts were coming to an end (1 Corinthians 13:8). Context is everything. However this comment section is for our video, please limit future comments on that topic please.
1Co 12 manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. word of wisdom; word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, miracles; prophecy; discerning of spirits; divers kinds of tongues; the interpretation of tongues:
(paraphras)all these work from the HolySpirit dividing to every man as he choses. NO GIFTS equal DEAD CHURCH !
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:
These words are followed with the warning that these gifts would one day cease.
1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will CEASE; where there are tongues, they will BE STILLED; where there is knowledge, it will PASS AWAY.
NIV
This is a comment section for our video (the content of which you have not disputed) not a message board or forum. We have addressed this topic entirely on our website, feel free to visit it if you have further questions.
guidedbytruth states; The book of Acts experience began in Jerusalem but it ended in 70AD and history simply supports that fact.
Acts 2:38,39 ...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Its suprising God didnt know it was going to stop in 70 AD., he gave a false promise according to you for He stated it was for all,
This verse says that the gift (SINGULAR) of the Holy Spirit himself will always be given, not the gifts (PLURAL) that he imparted on believers. We are told the gifts (PLURAL) were not given to everyone (1 Cor 12:4-12)and would one day cease (1 Cor 13:8). There is a distinct difference between to the two. The gift of the Holy Spirit will indeed to be offered to everyone, but the gifts he imparted on the early church will not.
This video assumes that what is written in 1901 and by others are factual. God has always had a people and the true church has always been operating in the gifts from Acts until now. Just like in China presently we dont hear about the underground church because
of persecution. The gifts will cease when Jesus Christ the perfect one returns.
You have missed the point of the video entirely. Pentecostal churches that teach the gifts have been in operation since Acts 2 (Assembly of God, UPCI, etc) all trace their roots to THIS point in history. These men are acknowledged as the founders of the churches you are professing to be "true churches". These men proclaimed (supposedly prophetically) that Pentecost was returning, not that it always existed. Did the holy spirit get the gifts right but the message wrong? I think not.
I am familiar with both of the organizations you mention above as well as many indep.; I have seen them trace this latter rain outpouring to this time but I believe they would all agree that God has been operating with these gifts all along although it may not have been documented. I assume you have no personal first hand knowledge of the infilling of the Spirit or this would'nt even be a discussion.
You are right these groups NOW trace them back to Acts 2 which, as we have clearly shown, is NOT what they have always believed and taught. It contradicts their own history and their own roots.
1 Corinthians 13: (8) Paul is trying to give an example of the superiorty of love. My question is this: If all these millions of "so called Pentecostals" are wrong, then where do thier gifts come from? YOU BETTER BE RIGHT "MR TRUTH". QUESTION: What is the unpardonable sin? Answer: Calling something of God the devil...Think about it before you go "Slandering" other Christain beliefs and people. I welcome your comments "Mr. Truth".
The bible warns us often to watch out for false prophets, teachers and doctrines. Nowhere does it warn us that we could end up in hell by committing blasphemy if we question the wrong ones. We are encouraged, exonerated and expected to question and compare teaching to Scripture. We have not committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Please visit our website at guidedbytruth(dot)com and read our article on the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to learn more on the subject.
No. They taught that the tongues would one day cease, were not for everyone, did not encourage people to seek them out and used them for the purpose for which they were given, to prove their message was from God. They left us their written record of these things in the Word so we no longer need these gifts. We have the testimony of those who really had them instead. As Peter said, we have something better, a more sure word of prophecy, in the Scripture.
The perfect thing which was to come was the completed Word of God which we got around 70AD. Knowledge had not ceased, it is the GIFTS that have ceased. We no longer need a gift to require knowledge, we gain knowledge now from reading the Word.
Anyone who knows the Scripture knows the context of the passage is the gifts of the Spirit. Paul began speaking about the gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 and went through the end of chapter 14. The context never changed. The Scripture clearly says that one day the gifts would cease. That is where you part with Scripture.
Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
But you first argued that the miracles themselves were proof the gifts did not cease. Now you admit they are NOT proof that the person is a child of God let alone preforming gifts in His name. It was not wrong to do such things in Jesus' name when Jesus gave them. It is wrong if He has stopped giving them and Paul warned us they would cease and history proves that they did. No Scripture says they would cease and then be "restored." Please see our other videos or website to learn more.
That the Pentecostal experience along with the gifts were "restored" to the church in 1906 cannot be denied. You can either say that it (and all the miracles) were of God or of Satan. If you say it is of Satan and you are wrong...
...you might find yourself in the place of the Pharisee's in Matthew 24:26. (They made this argument.)
Besides Jesus clearly said in Mark 16:17- 18 the signs that would follow believers.
If the gifts were "restored" as you say, what were the signs of those who believed before that "restoration?" Were there then no believers before 1901?
You are misinformed about both the spiritual gifts and the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Scripture we have already quoted proves that we do not have to assume all miracles are from God. Many will preform miracles and still enter hell, that is apparent from Scripture. The Scriptures warn us that false men will do such things.
If you are interested in hearing the truth please visit our website at guidedbytruth(dot)com and read these articles.
First look for the link to the article titled "Holy Spirit Baptism." It will clear up your misunderstanding on that subject.
There is also an article from our Q&A section which is currently running on our main page. It is titled "Question Regarding Pentecostal History" and addresses our response to these issues much more thoroughly than can be done here.
for the promise is unto you, and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the lord our god shall call.
These were not jews it list the tongues that the men spake. This promise is still good today. IF not who stoped it? God has not came again with a new plan.
THEN PETER SAID unto them , REPENT, and be baptised every one of you in the name of JESUS christ for the remission of sins, and ye SHALL receive the GIFT of the HOLY GHOST.
IF you do this with a pure heart you will answer your tongue question. GOD BLESS YOU ALL FOR SEEKING THE TRUTH.
We shall and do receive the gift (SINGULAR) of the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit Himself. That is not be confused with the gifts (PLURAL) that were given from Him of which we were told not everyone would receive and that would one day cease. Again, please keep comments on the topic of the video which is the history of the church that falsely teaches these gifts are available today and have been since Acts 2. Even their own history disproves that teaching.
The gift of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit are the same thing. Acts 2:1-4 was the fulfillment of Acts 1:5 which was spoken to a specific group of people and happened to that same group. In Acts 2:38 another group is receiving the same gift that the apostles in the upper room received, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
charity never faileth: but WHETHER there be prophecies, they hall cease; WHETHER there be tongues, they shall cease; WHETHER there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1corinthians 14-22
wherefor tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them that believe.
Exactly. There will come a time when these things will fail, cease and vanish away. We were warned it would happen and it did. The gifts were a sign for unbelieving Jews. We have videos that deal with this doctrinally though, so please keep comments on the topic of this video, which is the history of Pentecostals, not their beliefs.
Doctrinally they both are. This video is simply to reveal their history to those who may not know it. It is our hope that when people realize that this has not been happening since Acts chapter 2 as Pentecostals claim it has which is evidenced by the history of their own church, they then might be more willing to search out the truth of this matter in Scripture. We have other videos on Youtube and many articles online that show doctrinally why these teachings are wrong.
I am almost sure that you will hide from this truth. A. D. 453 "Pentecostal glossolalists history" Pope Leo I, Martyred Oneness Apostolic tongues speakers. (Roth p35) (Baiton p. 130) Pick a year and I will give you History.
And where do we see what these "glossoliasts" taught and believed? The fact is that some were "tongues speaking Priscillianists" and Priscilliants were heretical for more than speaking in tongues. They were gnostics who taught "The salvation of man consists in liberation from the domination of matter." Hardly biblical doctrines. Does the fact that gnostics spoke in tongues prove Biblical tongues exist? NO!
There are many false doctrines under many names depending on who is teaching, in every religion and every group. This does not mean some of them did not teach truth, or that true bible teaching did not exist. A.D 1182 Thousands of apostolics put to death by Rome. (J.H. Blunt p.412)
Are you saying that Parham and Seymour the men behind the great Azusa Street revival were LIARS? These me said, "men have been preaching a partial gospel...now he is bring BACK the pentecostal baptism to the church." They obviously believed they were gone. Did the spirit that gave them tongues reveal to them falsely that they had left the church? You are not simply questioning OUR understanding of history, you are questioning he very basis upon which Pentecostalism today is founded!
1901 was not the info age. Tongues did not teach them all things, or they would have invented enternet and went to the moon. Tongues is a sign of receiving the baptism of the spirit. It does make you know every thing.
So the gift of tongues was valid but the gift of prophecy required the internet????? WOW!
Please note that this is not a debate forum or message board. It is a comment section for a video. We have appreciated your comments and responded to them, however we are not going to continue to argue with you here. You obviously disagree and that has been duly noted. If you so desperately need a place to voice your opinion feel free to make your own video.
you could not be more wrong. I do not have the time now, but with in the next week or so, I will respond. There have been groups under diff names in every century that have known gifts of tongues and signs and wonders as the Acts church. History simply supports that fact..
Many pagans speak in tongues, does the fact that a person who denies God and yet
speaks in a tongue prove Biblical tongues exist? Certianly not. Speaking
in tongues with an incorrect understanding of Scripture does not prove that they are peaking in Biblical tongues. No church that has been recognized as a true church has spoken in tongues. Even the founders of Pentecostalism understood that fact!
glossolilia. look it up. Are you going to call every group I can show you pagan? It is not possable to show that it did not exist. You can only try to discredit all the history.
The fact is that even the founders of Modern Pentecostals realized that the gifts had indeed ceased and claimed these gifts were returning to the church. Now they are trying to claim otherwise and find a sprinkling of evidence from groups that had serious octrinal issues or have little evidence. Either the gifts existed throughout the church (not in and out of history in rare groups or sects) or it did not. No recognized church experienced them.
Modern Pentecostals in 1903 were seeking a Bible experiance, which they may have found. This does not make them historians. A.D, 1050 more than 100 towns of Languedoc were in control of Albigensians ( J.H. Blunt pp.15-19)
(J Laux, p.351) (Blunt p.74) many were spirited glossolalist slandered as "Bogomils"
If the gifts have always existed you shouldn't have to be a historian it should be obvious. Either every church had them because they were necessary or the church was without them. No one had heard of this sort of thing in any real way until 1901.
HOW does history support that fact? Just because you dont have a written ledger that reads the gifts were operational you just assume they werent. Hx could have been written by people like yourself, unbelievers which would have obviously left it unrecorded. you must believe to receive !
I'm sorry that you are blinded, I will certainly pray for you and your kind. You should really read your Bible and go by that, not what you "think" history is.
This video explains how history supports the biblical teaching of cessationism. It reveals that Pentecostalism was founded on this same belief; that gifts HAD ceased up until the founders supposedly experienced them. It also exposes how modern Pentecostals mislead people today into thinking this belief has been around since Acts (which it has not). If you would like to see the biblical reasons for the cessation of the gifts please view our other videos or visit our website.
I thank God for healing me through my Pentecostal mother! People oftentimes criticize the Pentecostals for our loud praising of God, crying when filled with the spirit, and because more and more people are going to Pentecostal churches everyday. Don't be jealous but rather share in our delight in Jesus Christ! Tongues will cease when that which is perfect has come. The time is not perfect and we still are in need of the gifts of the Holy Ghost. Praise and glory to you Jesus AMEN!
Just by reading all of the different interpretations of one passage of scripture by you few people is an excellent example of why the world has so many different religions. God says that the devil is the author of confusion...and I bet each one of you will say that the other has it wrong and is confused. Maybe religion is of the devil because all I see here is mass confusion!
im so tired of people taking one verse out out of the bible and building a doctrine or belief out of it. Read the whole new testament and learn before you build a belief on what one verse in corinthians says...you blind people.
I believe that all denominations are man-made and Pentecostalism is no exception. The video definitely has merit. The bible never spoke of the gifts leaving. Once they arrived they stayed. Keeping in mind that there was no RECORDED evidence of the gifts "returning" to America until that time of the early 1900's. Just because it picked back up in America, doesn't mean it ceased in other parts of the world. Very good video.
Thanks for the kind comments. I do, however, want to clarify that the Bible does say that the gifts, including tongues, will cease in 1 Corinthians 13:8. I also want to state that even though this movement began in America, that modern Pentecostals all over the world can trace their roots back to the Azusa Street Revival. There is no historical evidence (since the initial cessation) of tongues or other gifts being exercised in other countries before this time.
1 Corinthians 13:8 only says the gifts have ceased if one misinterprets that scripture.
It says these things WILL cease, and they will once Christ comes for his bride. If you adhere to the (distorted) view that this scripture states that the spiritual gifts have ceased, you must also adhere to the last part of the verse which states that knowledge has ceased. Clearly, one can see that Knowledge and information have only increased since Paul penned those words.
Yes, we are increased in knowledge through the study of God's Word. What ceased was the supernatural "gift" of knowledge, not knowledge itself. As Peter said, we now have something greater than the words of prophets or anyone with these gifts because we have the Scripture(2 Peter 19:21). This video was on the history of this movement, to see the actual doctrine explained please view our other videos or visit our website at guidedbytruth (dot) com.
Dear Mr Guided by truth, I am not Charismatic or even Pentecostal, however I see that you are using 1 Cor 13:8 underhandedly to try and prove that Knowledge and Prophesies have ceased, In the Greek Paul states that tongues will cease or peeter out, but Knowledge and Prophesy will cease because the perfect will cause it to cease. It is obvious to any believing Christian that we still Prophesy (speak forth the word) and Knowlge still manifests itself through the Holy Spirit in the church today.
zoltanapril42 1 year ago
@zoltanapril42 We are careful to make the distinction between the GIFT of knowledge and knowledge itself. Speaking forth the Word as you call prophecy happens when we speak forth the already written down Word of God. What does not happen is the gift of prophecy where men are given a NEW revelation. It is the same with knowledge. We receive knowledge now when we read the word of God. The Spirit teaches us through the Word. Knowledge does not come any longer by a gift but by the Word of God.
guidedbytruth 1 year ago
Togues has obviously ceased but for the Pentecostals that still practice this for tongues to be Biblical according to Paul women weren't allowed to speak in tongues 1Cor.14:34 and this contradiction goes on every week! The being filled with the Holy Ghost is setting the world up to open themselves up to allow spirits in. The gift of the Holy Ghost is salvation! There are so many other contradictions in that movement that its scary.
eptx1983 1 year ago
Very good guidedbytruth. May God continue to bless your life and ministry.
willydihar 1 year ago
Thank you, guidedbytruth, for the clear presentation of this historical fact. I hope they hear.
donheinz68 1 year ago
You use 1Corinthians 13:8 to show that tongues and the other spiritual gifts will cease. It also says that knowledge will vanish away... so do we no longer have knowledge? Taking one partial verse out of context is a dangerous practice.
envoy536 2 years ago
It is not "knowledge" that has vanished, it is the "gift" of knowledge. Surely if the only way to gain knowledge was through a spiritual gift that would mean that knowledge didn't exist BEFORE Acts 2! Even the Spiritual gift of knowledge was not given to everyone, yet everyone still had access to knowledge. While the gift of knowledge no longer exists, we all can gain knowledge and we do so through the instruction of the Word of God.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago 2
using I Cor13:8 as the basis for arguing for the cessation of the gifts of the Spirit reflects poor hermeneutics and terrible exegesis.
dzidza31 2 years ago
The gift of the Holy Spirit is eternal life.
vrghiks 2 years ago
I don't believe that the gifts have ceased, but I must say that most of the pentecostal movement is very disturbing.
shanecruey 2 years ago
The things that we know now are partial things because in our "finiteness" we can't know all the things of God. But when He comes back for his church all the things that we know in part, will not be needed, such as prophecy, tongues and the other gifts because we will be with the One who gives the gifts! As I Cor. 13:12 says...and I paraphrase, "Right now I just know some things of God, but then, when I see Him face to face will I KNOW Him even as He knows me."
ElderChuckAnderson 2 years ago
Your "paraphrase" actually changed the meaning of the text to support your theory. There is NO reference to "Him" in that verse.
1 Cor 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
NIV
I would caution you against quoting your own words and pretending they mean the same thing as God's Word does. If you have to change the wording to prove your point, you might want to rethink it.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago 2
@ElderChuckAnderson That is not a possible exegesis. Jesus is never referred to as "that which is perfect" any where else in scripture. The greek denotes a "coming to perfection", or a "purpose fulfilled".
averagetheologian 2 years ago
If there was a cessation of the Spirit of God during the so called Dark Ages before 1906, then there would be a cessation of the gifts of the Spirit, since they come part and parcel with the Holy Ghost. So with the advent of the latter rain, it would stand to reason that the gifts would again come into effect.
The scripture in I Cor 13:8 is speaking of the rapture, for in verse 10 it says, "But when that which is perfect is come,..." Now you tell me, who is that which is perfect?
ElderChuckAnderson 2 years ago
You can't have it both ways. You admit that the gifts ceased in your first paragraph and yet in your second you are claiming they will not cease until the rapture. Scripture does NOT teach that they cease but then return again. Either they are needed until the rapture or they ceased. Both can not be true.
No one is THAT which is perfect. Jesus is a person not an object. If it were Jesus it would have said He WHO is perfect, not "that." That which is perfect is the Holy Scriptures.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago 2
While Holy Scripture is perfect, the phrase "that which is perfect" refers the coming Kingdom of God which is yet to be established on earth.
envoy536 2 years ago
I see nothing in the context that supports that. I however, DO have other Scripture (James 1:22-25) that refers to the Word of God as perfect AND likens it to a mirror, just as was done in 1 Cor 13. Besides, if the gifts were going to stay until the return of Christ, there would really be no reason for Paul to warn them they were going to cease yet his point here is they are arguing over something that is going to disappear soon anyway.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago 2
Comment removed
SP567 2 years ago
You must not confuse the Spirit Himself with the gifts of the Spirit. The Spirit is indeed very powerful, he just empowers us differently today. For now we gain knowledge, wisdom and revelation through the Word of God which is living and active and very powerful. The Spirit does indeed lead us into all truth and remember His Word is truth! If the gifts are still necessary then somehow the Word is lacking and I do not believe that to be true. It gives us all we need for life and godliness.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
Thank you for this. I am studying and want to show my friends and loved ones how they are being taught false doctrine. I love them so much and know they are wonderful people who love the Lord but they are being coaxed into behaviors that are not correct. One thing I will do is send you tube videos to them. Will watch the other video you mentioned. Thank you and God bless you for your desire for the truth.
Iseeit4u 2 years ago
Hi Filolll -The reason knowledge (KN) is not added here is due to the PROGRESSIVE nature of annullment of KN. When we come to Christ and behlod Him as in a mirrow, our Earthly KN will begin disappering in the Light of heavenly KN. When we Finally see Him, the light of heavenly KN shall broaden in the Perfect day.Now we see in Part, then we shall see Fully. This is why the Lord shall wipe off tears from our eyes. Earthly KN shall Vanish. We shall not remember this filthy World any More!!..
BelovedSheep 2 years ago
why didnt the maker of this video complete 1 Cor 13:8. whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish---did knowledge pass away then too? i'm not a pentecostal, but if that's the only verse to use saying gifts ceased, at least use the whole verse. unless it takes away from your doctrine.
filoIII 2 years ago 2
Please note that the topic of the video is not the biblical evidence for cessationism, but how history reveals that cessationsim is true. We cover the biblical evidence in another video titled Pentecostalism and the Cessation of the Gifts. In it you will find more Scriptural evidence and this entire verse used in context. We were staying on topic here, the rest of the passage does not take away from our position at all, which is obvious if you view our other video.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
why didnt you mention that knowledge will vanish if you're gonna mention the things in the rest of the verse would cease? just curious
filoIII 2 years ago
As I said, because it was not relevant to the discussion of tongues. We DO address that in our other video. This verse is speaking about the GIFTS of knowledge, tongues and prophecy and that is what ceased. Knowledge existed long before Acts chapter 2 and continues to exist today now we gain it through the study of God's Word, not some miraculous gift. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, and that applies for all time, even before the "gift of knowledge" existed.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
guided by truth let me ask you this, so do you believe spiritual gifts have truly ceased?
Skripmusic 2 years ago
I attended both a Baptist college and an AG college and have been exposed to both points of view. People are being brought to Jesus in both environments and walking away radically changed. I have heard about non-spiritual gift churches becoming spiritual gift churches. At the end of the day, what difference does it make? Why don't you keep preaching Jesus Christ crucified and try and figure out how we can go from a church divided to one united!
skiizalot 2 years ago
When the Corinthian church was abusing the spiritual gifts Paul did not write to the other churches to say leave them alone and lets just all get along. No, he wrote to the church that was in error and said:
1 Cor 12:1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant .
In 2 Corinthians 11 he chastised them for putting up with it when people preach another Jesus or another spirit and warns that such men are false apostles.
The Truth is important and it matters.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
there are records of people speaking in toungues in every century. Most of the time the catholic church was the "mega church" so of course they were gonna try and stamp all that out. but study it out for yourself and you will find it. Pentecost is right. Praise God I'm a pentecostal!
pentecost4me 2 years ago
This is a common argument that we have answered time and again. The fact is that the people throughout history who supposedly experienced glossolalia were in fringe segments that were not even doctrinally correct. These sects were dualists, agnostics and even polytheists. To suggest someone can believe falsely about God yet have his spiritual gift is nonsense. To read get the full answer to this argument visit our webesite guidedbytruth(dot)com(forwardslash)questionpenthistory(dot)php
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
Having bumped into juddgreg before,,, I am happy to say,,, VERY GOOD video,,,VERY GOOD ARGUMENT. I have been forced to write a small booklet called why I am not a Charismatic, instead of refuting Charismatic allegations of a line of charismatics back to the apostles and Jesus AND showing that pagans religions have always used Charismata,, I think I will mostly use your approach. Let the restoration founders prove the point for me. THANK YOU!!
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
You have NO Scripture to support such a claim. Not one passage in the entire Bible says that tongues are the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. Tongues simply can NOT be the evidence because there are many pagans that experience glossalia, and they don't even profess to have the Holy Spirit or believe in Jesus. Matthew chapter 7 is clear that miracles are NOT proof that a person is saved and 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is very clear that NOT every person will speak in tongues.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
1 Corinthians 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To ONE...there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom... to ANOTHER speaking in different kinds of tongues,] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
tongues is the only way to let other ppl and urself know that u received the Holy Ghost. u cant go to heaven unless u are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (not that of the fake Trinity) and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
ChildofGod238 2 years ago
1st Corinthian 13:8 verse is taken out of context. I agree with some of the points in this video but I do believe the gifts are still active today. One would be a woman who was in prayer and was gifted with the entirety of the Italian Language. She could not only speak and translate but she could also write in perfect grammar.
The corinth verse says that when perfection comes, the imperfect will disappear. Perfection is the Holy Triune God. The gifts will cease at the 2nd Coming of Christ.
Jimbo3783 3 years ago
We have addressed these points in one of our other videos "Pentecostalism and the Cessation of the Spiritual Gifts" which talks about how the perfection was not Jesus but rather the complete Word of God. You can also find more information by visiting our website at guidedbytruth(dot)com.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
i totally agree with jimbo gifts will go away at the 2nd comin .. and yes some pentecostals went to far with these gifts
yari718 3 years ago
Jimbo makes a great point the Gifts have not ceased and won't until Jesus returns. If they did why did Paul encourage his church to seek after them if they had ceased. If you apply the same logic here then the reformation is also false because they taught a message or gospel that had been perverted by the Catholic church. The reformation is only 400 years old and it is some of their off base teachings that have come against the use of the gifts today. Very poor video and poorer argument.
JuddGregg 2 years ago
Paul specifically took the time to warn them the gifts were going to cease. If they weren't going to cease until Jesus came there was no need to actually say they were going to cease. That would be pointless and it is not what he said would happen. Jesus is not anywhere in the context of his statement. You can view our other videos or visit out website to learn about the context of the passage. The point of this video is that even Pentecostal history proves they had indeed ceased.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
As for the reformation, the points made during the reformation were not "new" teachings. They were new to the Catholic Church but people held them outside of that church. Foxes Book of Martyr's and other history can testify to that fact because those who were being persecuted outside of the church held to true Biblical principles.
guidedbytruth 2 years ago
Having bumped into juddgreg before,,, I am happy to say,,, VERY GOOD video,,,VERY GOOD ARGUMENT. I have been forced to write a small booklet called why I am not a Charismatic, instead of refuting Charismatic allegations of a line of charismatics back to the apostles and Jesus AND showing that pagans religions have always used Charismata,, I think I will mostly use your approach. Let the restoration founders prove the point for me. THANK YOU!!
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
All of these "facts" are taken out of context and there is use of straw tactics within this video.
bktspinner 3 years ago
The "I said it isn't true" approach is not a compelling argument. Since you left no example of how a "fact" was taken out of context I have to deduce that you have no real proof to back up your accusation.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
The cane break revival was before, the happenings in topeka, kansas. It's kind of strange considering he had never himself seen or heard of this "phenomenon", yet before this happened in Topeka and even before this happened in Los Angeles, the southern Appalachian peoples of Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee, were experiencing it. By the by, when (time period) does the bible say that the gifts were to cease?
bktspinner 3 years ago
I am not sure where you got your information but no one at the Cane Ridge (not break) Revival spoke in tongues. While they did "shake" and fall around and scream and shout (which are behaviors that have no basis in Scripture) they did not experience the same thing as those in Topeka Kansas, nor did the revival lead to a new teaching about the holy spirit baptism. Note that the Pentecostal churches themselves claim to come from the Topeka experience rather than this revival.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
The gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking of tongues happened in Acts ch2. The reason for it was to convert the many people from various parts of the known world there at Jerusalem. Those who were moved were told to "repent and be baptized everyone of you in the of Jesus for the remission of sins" Acts 2:38. And Peter said further that the gift of tongues was available to all. God used the gift to convert-he is'nt the author of confusion: God does things in ordered fashion.
luztheloser 3 years ago
The Bible says the gift of the HOLY GHOST is given to all, NOT the gift of tongues. The Holy Ghost was given to all and He gave the gift of tongues only to some.
Acts 2:38 ye shall receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off
1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man...8For to ONE is given by the Spirit...10 TO ANOTHER divers kinds of tongues...11 dividing to every man severally as he will.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
No. Pentecostals say their flailing around and babbling incoherently is from the Holy Ghost. WE say that is it not and prove it both historically (as in this video) and biblically (as in our other videos and on our website).
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
great video
synodofdort 3 years ago
Great video very informative. They claim that they follow the follow the apostles and this shows that they are wrong. Thank You for this video
synodofdort 3 years ago
One look at any Benny Hinn service with the carnival like atmosphere of spiritual drunkeness, barking and disgraceful conduct is a sure clue to any Bible believing follower of Christ that it is all of the devil. Same for Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and the rest of the charlatans. It's all part of the end-time antichrist's soon reign on earth.
unclewalt56 3 years ago
Whoever put this video together did a poor job of research. I am a college student and I'm criticizing you for poor research- this is sad.
You need Jesus.
BrotherMurray 3 years ago 4
I want to note that you gave no example of how the research was poor or how anything in it was inaccurate.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
I don't go by what history states but what the word of God states. If you go by history, teaching salvation by works far out does salvation by grace because of the Catholic movement and the suppression of the truth revealed in God's word. The foundation of this doctrine is based on misinterpreted scripture and should be discarded.
Soulja4Chr1st 3 years ago
The gift never stop, because is elemental theology that the work of the Holy Ghost was not going to stop until the rapture of the Church.
light134 3 years ago
That was only the one date that came to mind from my own studies. There are other dates that I will forward you when I don't have a funeral to preach. Yes it is a long way from 70AD but their is history of the spiritual gifts being in operation in the church since 70AD, if you are going to tell me I'm a heretic then you're information should be precise and correct. My own families roots in pentecostalism can be traced back to the early 1800's.
pastorchrisabz 3 years ago
We also have an article on our site titled "Questions Regarding Pentecostal History" which addresses such claims. The charts that date back to closer to 70AD are filled with several gaps and many known heretical groups. They say groups such as the Albigenses spoke in tongues yet fail to mention that this same sect denied the resurrection! They are trying to change "history" to support their belief which is why you can't find their claims in a dictionary or history book.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
It was 1886, in a crude meeting house on the Tennessee-North Carolina border, where the Church of God traces its roots.
pastorchrisabz 3 years ago
Yes that is the date we have quoted on our website which also points out that they have little information about what actually took place. They did however, also claim that their experience was a renewal of Pentecost and that tongues were spoken "again" in the church. Read our article at guidedbytruth(dot)com titled "The History of the Pentecostal Movement" to see the exact quotes of R.G. Spurling their leader which prove this point. 1886 is still a long ways from 70 AD.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
You do realize that this dictionary of Pentecostalism is not the only book that exists of evidence of times and dates and proclamations made by other preachers. I would look into the history of the Church Of God and the Fire Baptized Holiness Church. While compelling your historical overview is very limited in it's parameters.
pastorchrisabz 3 years ago
The dictionary is not our only source. It is only used so much because it is accepted by Pentecostals as accurately portraying their history, therefore it is not a source that can be considered biased towards our views. We have studied many sources on this issue and do quote and address the Church of God on our website. We also quote many organization's websites in this video in which their historical statement agrees with our claims.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Never a biblical verse is taken ALONE to probe a theological idea. Is important to use two at least. The verse in 1Cor.3:8 is addresing the importance of love, and that there is an ending to all the world but love is eternal. READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER. Is ovious the lack of proper theological knowledge.
light134 3 years ago
Note this video is on the history of the movement, not the theology. We have other videos addressing that and use more than just one verse. The information in this video simply confirms that fact that historically the gifts did cease something you did not deny or address in your comment.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
By the first third of the 19th century, Puritanism as preached by Cotton Mather had collapsed, only 8 percent of Americans belonged to any religion. This led to a furor of Camp Meetings, many of denominations which are accepted today.
Joseph Smith was a sincere young man who lived in ''the burned over district'' led his people Westward. Many beleived in the speaking of tongues and had private meetings until older practitioners died and their
practices dwindled.
DadsBlueAngel 3 years ago
Why would Paul even write about spiritual gifts if these gifts would come to pass? The restoration of the Church is happening NOW! Catholicism cut the Holy Spirit off. No record of that ever happening, but that is my discernment. It is time for either the traditional Churches to step up or they will fall off and close their doors, which that is a fact that is happening now. Get baptized with the laying of hands and recieve the Holy Spirit.
mrcdhn 3 years ago
Why would Paul bother warning us they were going to cease if they were going to last until Jesus came back again? The reason he wrote about them was because they were using them and needed to do so correctly. They were necessary only because they did not have the completed written Word of God like we have today. Paul said they would cease, not fade away but then return later so any supposed "restoration" is not grounded in Scripture and therefore not from God.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Historical records indicate that the abundant exercise of the Charismatic gifts may have diminished somewhat after the post New Testament era — especially in the dark ages, due to the years of inaccessibility of scripture to the common people in their own language. But there is much history to substantiate that the supernatural gifts were never absent from the church. Scores of statements to this effect were recorded by church leaders such as Irenaeus, who wrote around A.D. 150
donandshannon 3 years ago
Show us in Scripture where the gifts will diminish. The idea that they DIMINISHED because the Scripture was not accessible makes NO sense because when the gifts were FIRST given there was NO access to ANY NT Scripture because it had not been written yet! So we can see, access to the Scripture would not diminish their existence but rather it was the reason for it. As for any supposed evidence of their existence in history see our article "Pentecostal History Question" which refutes that claim.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Sorry I need to make a correction, the following sentence should read this way:
So we can see, HAVING NO access to the Scripture would not diminish their existence but rather it was the reason for it.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Not why I am posting a comment but maybe more that someone may do there own studying. I am sure the authors of this video what you to focus on the men and there talants on lack of but you must always go to GOD's Word for the answer. If you don't believe GOD works through his people today then be convinced by the word. If you do believe be convinced by the word. Study for yourself make your own mind up and seek understanding by understanding the argument. Peace in Christ Jesus....
donandshannon 3 years ago
Guided By Truth is dedicated to teaching that Scripture alone is our source of truth and we always encourage others to study it. There are actually very FEW Scriptures that speak about the gifts yet Pentecostal churches are based upon those select passages and ignore the others that say they will cease and are not given to everyone. Scripture reveals that God working through us is an action, not an experience, nor would any experience we have be contradicted by the fruits which He gives us.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
If you are goingto quote text will you please not take a verse out of its context in order to validate your claim. Thank you and God bless.
OneGodPreacher 3 years ago
We have not done so. However, If you are going to comment on a video please comment on the content which is the history of the churches that were founded teaching that the gifts had ceased but now teach something different. It is about how this teaching can't trace its roots back to Acts 1 but rather traces it to these men; Parham and Seymour. Either they lied then, or the leaders are lying now, but in each case their message has not been consistent with Scripture or history.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Your comments regarding 1 Corinthians 13:8 is taken out of context. The end of Prophecy (to speak forth, preaching, Tongues(languages), and knowledge (carnal knowledge) WILL cease when the perfect one (Jesus)comes (2nd coming). We will not need these when we have left the carnal (our current bodies of fleshand bone). If you will continue to read down to verse 12 the Bible speaks of how we are now looking at everything in a dark mirror. We do not see everything as it really is but we will someday
OneGodPreacher 3 years ago
The verse was not taken out of context and if you visit our website you will see we have addressed this in great detail and with much Scriptural support. We are not seeing everything in a dark mirror, but they were because they only had a "partial" mirror, the incomplete Scripture. In James 1:25-27, he (like Paul) says the Word of God is "perfect" and is a "mirror" for us. Looking into that "PERFECT law" (mirror) is what gives us freedom and by doing that we will be blessed in everything.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
walter martin [author of kingdom of the cults, one of the worlds foremost authority on cults until his death] was a southern baptist, in his doctoral thesis on the 1st 500 years of the church proved the gifts never ceased. furthermore, he said on numerous occasions that the gifts have never ceased and could be traced from pentecost all the way to his death.
stingoftruth 3 years ago
Well, if he taught that, he was wrong. You must be careful for there are many questions surrounding his credentials. I could not find any evidence that His thesis exists let alone any "proof" of what was supposedly in it. He is actually on record as saying during one of his Bible Answer Man programs, "My Master's thesis? Let's see, Oh, my Doctoral thesis. I didn't do a Master's thesis."
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Concerning 1 Cor 13:8 - put it back in context. The key is in verse 10, which says 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
This refers to prophecies, tongues, knowledge mentioned in verse 8.
However, this was written after Jesus time on Earth - so unless I've missed the 2nd coming already - THAT WHICH IS PERFECT HAS NOT COME YET.
Besides that, what about healing and other gifts? I have personally been healed, and witnessed many healings.
smspark 3 years ago
That which is perfect is the Bible, not Jesus. Nothing in the context suggests that it is. Please see our other videos and visit our website to find out more.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
It isn't the Bible either - it refers to the resurrection, when we will receive perfect understanding after the 2nd coming of Jesus. Why does it matter what the 20th century Pentecostals started out with? The early years of the movement was a time of revelation and learning. However it happened, it eventually resulted in alignment with New Testament teaching, including Oneness. All I care about is my church teaching today matches the scriptures; how we got there should not be used against us.
smspark 3 years ago
It matters a lot because if the gifts had not ceased then the founders were liars. If they had ceased then they were still liars because the bible never says the gifts will cease and then return again. Historically we see that the gifts had ceased and even the founders admitted that. Now the churches lie to cover that up.
Whether or not you agree, the Bible IS perfect and is the fulfillment of this verse which is proven Scripturally and historically.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Didn't the Pentecostal church split over doctrinal issues..such as Jesus only, trinitarian, some believe tongues is eveidence of the spirit, others don't, spirit language, some believe prayer language, some don't..Pentecostalism contradicts itself too much..
chrismichael1 3 years ago
You do know that Jesus in the bible is never referred to THAT....Also in Mark 16:20 says that 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it." when you speak in tongues what word are you confirming, the people back then didn't have the complete written word...cont.
chrismichael1 3 years ago
Heres my question to you...obviously back then they knew in part. Do we know in Part today? Did they have the complete written word back(OT and NT)? Do we have have both today? If tongues is the evidence why didn't Paul who dedicated a whole chapter on Tongues and spiritual gifts not mention once they were the evidence of the Spirit?
chrismichael1 3 years ago
The Bible, not Charles Parham, first said that tongues was the evidence of the Holy Ghost baptism. Acts Chapter 10, how did they know Cornelius' house had received it? 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
smspark 3 years ago
That passage simply says that those people were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. It does NOT say that tongues is always the evidence of Spiritual baptism. In fact the Scripture tells us that the Spirit will only give SOME people the gift of tongues.
1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given... 8 TO ONE there is given...the message of wisdom...TO ANOTHER speaking in different kinds of tongues...he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Everyone who receives the Holy Ghost speaks in tongues. 1 Cor chapter 12 refers to the gifts of the spirit, of which one is tongues and interpretation. This is different, this is when tongues is used in operation in the church, in connection with interpretation. You are correct that not everyone receives this gift. But it is not the same thing as speaking in tongues upon receiving of the Holy Ghost.
smspark 3 years ago
The Bible NEVER makes a distinction between a gift of tongues and some other tongue which is the supposed evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. That is another LIE propagated to explain away the APPARENT contradiction that is raised when we show how not everyone will speak in tongues. The Bible speaks simply of tongues (which are known human languages) and it says that not everyone will speak them. So you are wrong. If you want to understand more please visit our website.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
My question to anyone here is why the focus on speaking in tongues? There are 9 gifts mentioned in 1 cor 12, 5 mentioned in Mrk 16, 3 in Joel 2, so why is it that everyone that beleives the gifts are still here, they focus on tongues and they all pray for tongues when that is not the only gift and no where in scripture does any of the apostles say specifically tongues is the evidence of the spirit and they never mention that Gal 5 22-23 mentions the fruits of the spirit.
chrismichael1 3 years ago
A proper study on Pentecostalism would have to include many centuries of Church History than you quote on this channel because Pentecostalism was born at Pentecost.
Pentecostalism has been manifested in many different regions of the world, in every century, during the last 19oo years of Christianity in spite of the horrible resistance it has endured. If spiritual gifts have failed and ceased, then knowlege must have vanished away, as proven by uninspired report.
Strafete 3 years ago
Pentecostalism was not born at Pentecost and this video shows that to be a fact. To learn more please read the most recent article on our website (guidedbytruth(dot)com) as it addresses your false claims that the gifts have never ceased. It is titled "Question Regarding Pentecostal History" and deals with the false historical claims that there were always people who had the gifts and exposes the hypocrisy that causes within the churches that were founded claiming the gifts had been "restored".
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
There is a difference between the GIFT of knowledge and knowledge itself. We still gain knowledge but now it is done through the reading of God's Word, there is no gift needed for that.
To suggest that the GIFT was necessary to gain knowledge suggests UNTIL Pentecost knowledge was also unattainable. The GIFTS have ceased, but our means for gaining knowledge, prophecy and wisdom are still here, but they come, not from a miraculous gift but from the study and adherence to God's Word.
guidedbytruth 3 years ago
Guidedbytruth with all respect, once again, I strongly believe we need to read the whole chapter and not just those few lines. It doesn't literally mean the gifts will cease in any time. If like you said gifts have ceased how are you going to full fill Mark 16:15-18 and those are the words of Jesus the Lord and Savior. Penecostal is wrong if they say it has ceased and come back, because throughout the world the gifts existed through history, like Roman Catholic Charismatic, who believe gifts.
hyubgaek 4 years ago
As we have stated, we deal with the entire context in our other videos and at our website. It has been addressed, but is not here because this video is about the history of the movement, not the doctrine. The founders of Pentecostalism were also not wrong when they said the gifts had left, for they lived in a time when they knew that NO TRUE CHURCH anywhere practiced them nor had practiced them for quite some time. Thats why their teaching was considered "new."
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
Guidbytruth, sir or madam i think you are taking words out of context. 1cor 13:8 is talking about how love remainds forever even after Christ's comeing. But when God comes back we wouldn't need prophesy (because it will all be full filled) and we wouldn't need tongues (because we wouldn't need it because we will be walking side by side with God) Do people misuse tongues? yes! But God is all powerful and you can't deny such things exist this day and age specially if one listens to Him and ask Him
hyubgaek 4 years ago
Nothing has been taken out of context here. Pentecostal churches trace their roots to these men and these teachings which said Pentecostal baptism disappeared before the middle ages and returned in 1901. No Scripture says the gifts will cease but return again. 1 Corinthians 13 says they will cease, and history proves that they did. Even Pentecostal history supports that fact. Please see our other videos to deal with the Scriptural aspect of this doctrine.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
Nice work. Having come from a Pentecostal background, I'm especially familiar with the small subset of scripture and selective history that is most commonly propagated in Pentecostal churches.
josheb238 4 years ago
Very interesting! Pentecostal theology believes in cessationism but now they change their theology. The truth is not a changing truth! There is also no evidence of the gifts comming back after they cease in the Bible either!! Pentecostalism is a false religion!
whitedragonawa 4 years ago
1 Corinthians 1:7 gives us the Scriptural time-line for when the gifts of the Spirit should end.
bg4u2 4 years ago
This verse is not a time line. This was written to the Corinthian church. The fact that the testimony of Christ "was confirmed" in THEM, so that THEY did not lack any spiritual gift is not a time-line suggesting it applies to us all. Later, in this very letter, Paul warns these same people that these gifts were coming to an end (1 Corinthians 13:8). Context is everything. However this comment section is for our video, please limit future comments on that topic please.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
1Co 12 manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. word of wisdom; word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, miracles; prophecy; discerning of spirits; divers kinds of tongues; the interpretation of tongues:
(paraphras)all these work from the HolySpirit dividing to every man as he choses. NO GIFTS equal DEAD CHURCH !
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:
keithtoyou 4 years ago
These words are followed with the warning that these gifts would one day cease.
1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will CEASE; where there are tongues, they will BE STILLED; where there is knowledge, it will PASS AWAY.
NIV
This is a comment section for our video (the content of which you have not disputed) not a message board or forum. We have addressed this topic entirely on our website, feel free to visit it if you have further questions.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
guidedbytruth states; The book of Acts experience began in Jerusalem but it ended in 70AD and history simply supports that fact.
Acts 2:38,39 ...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Its suprising God didnt know it was going to stop in 70 AD., he gave a false promise according to you for He stated it was for all,
everyone He would call !
keithtoyou 4 years ago
This verse says that the gift (SINGULAR) of the Holy Spirit himself will always be given, not the gifts (PLURAL) that he imparted on believers. We are told the gifts (PLURAL) were not given to everyone (1 Cor 12:4-12)and would one day cease (1 Cor 13:8). There is a distinct difference between to the two. The gift of the Holy Spirit will indeed to be offered to everyone, but the gifts he imparted on the early church will not.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
This video assumes that what is written in 1901 and by others are factual. God has always had a people and the true church has always been operating in the gifts from Acts until now. Just like in China presently we dont hear about the underground church because
of persecution. The gifts will cease when Jesus Christ the perfect one returns.
keithtoyou 4 years ago
You have missed the point of the video entirely. Pentecostal churches that teach the gifts have been in operation since Acts 2 (Assembly of God, UPCI, etc) all trace their roots to THIS point in history. These men are acknowledged as the founders of the churches you are professing to be "true churches". These men proclaimed (supposedly prophetically) that Pentecost was returning, not that it always existed. Did the holy spirit get the gifts right but the message wrong? I think not.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
I am familiar with both of the organizations you mention above as well as many indep.; I have seen them trace this latter rain outpouring to this time but I believe they would all agree that God has been operating with these gifts all along although it may not have been documented. I assume you have no personal first hand knowledge of the infilling of the Spirit or this would'nt even be a discussion.
keithtoyou 4 years ago
You are right these groups NOW trace them back to Acts 2 which, as we have clearly shown, is NOT what they have always believed and taught. It contradicts their own history and their own roots.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
1 Corinthians 13: (8) Paul is trying to give an example of the superiorty of love. My question is this: If all these millions of "so called Pentecostals" are wrong, then where do thier gifts come from? YOU BETTER BE RIGHT "MR TRUTH". QUESTION: What is the unpardonable sin? Answer: Calling something of God the devil...Think about it before you go "Slandering" other Christain beliefs and people. I welcome your comments "Mr. Truth".
glenbruner2525 4 years ago
The bible warns us often to watch out for false prophets, teachers and doctrines. Nowhere does it warn us that we could end up in hell by committing blasphemy if we question the wrong ones. We are encouraged, exonerated and expected to question and compare teaching to Scripture. We have not committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Please visit our website at guidedbytruth(dot)com and read our article on the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to learn more on the subject.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
was paul a pentecostal or peter or john?
not by name but by doctorine
mandersue 4 years ago
No. They taught that the tongues would one day cease, were not for everyone, did not encourage people to seek them out and used them for the purpose for which they were given, to prove their message was from God. They left us their written record of these things in the Word so we no longer need these gifts. We have the testimony of those who really had them instead. As Peter said, we have something better, a more sure word of prophecy, in the Scripture.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
When that which is perfect is come? When did knowlege cease? 200 years ago we used horses.
kleb707 4 years ago
The perfect thing which was to come was the completed Word of God which we got around 70AD. Knowledge had not ceased, it is the GIFTS that have ceased. We no longer need a gift to require knowledge, we gain knowledge now from reading the Word.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
why do you part this sqript to make it say what you want it to say. When your perfect came, Knowlege and prophecy did not ceace.
kleb707 4 years ago
Anyone who knows the Scripture knows the context of the passage is the gifts of the Spirit. Paul began speaking about the gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 and went through the end of chapter 14. The context never changed. The Scripture clearly says that one day the gifts would cease. That is where you part with Scripture.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
So if the gifts ceased in 70 AD...by the will of God...then they could not have come back again.
But they were restored...so evidently your interpretation of the Scriptures does not line up with history.
Too many indisputable miracles have been performed...too many people have been healed...too many prophecies have come to pass.
Puretruth77 4 years ago 2
Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
What you quoted is the truth.
However, Jesus did not say however, that it was wrong to perform miracles and drive out demons in His Name.
He said just because you are able to do these things, that does not make you a child of God.
You will notice that the apostles also did many miracles in His Name and if fact Jesus sent them to do so.
God is still God. Every promise in the Bible is true. If you do not have enough faith to believe for miracles...do not stand in the way of others.
Nomdeg 4 years ago
But you first argued that the miracles themselves were proof the gifts did not cease. Now you admit they are NOT proof that the person is a child of God let alone preforming gifts in His name. It was not wrong to do such things in Jesus' name when Jesus gave them. It is wrong if He has stopped giving them and Paul warned us they would cease and history proves that they did. No Scripture says they would cease and then be "restored." Please see our other videos or website to learn more.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
I never said that the gifts did or did not cease.
That the Pentecostal experience along with the gifts were "restored" to the church in 1906 cannot be denied. You can either say that it (and all the miracles) were of God or of Satan. If you say it is of Satan and you are wrong...
...you might find yourself in the place of the Pharisee's in Matthew 24:26. (They made this argument.)
Besides Jesus clearly said in Mark 16:17- 18 the signs that would follow believers.
Do you believe?
Nomdeg 4 years ago
If the gifts were "restored" as you say, what were the signs of those who believed before that "restoration?" Were there then no believers before 1901?
You are misinformed about both the spiritual gifts and the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Scripture we have already quoted proves that we do not have to assume all miracles are from God. Many will preform miracles and still enter hell, that is apparent from Scripture. The Scriptures warn us that false men will do such things.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
If you are interested in hearing the truth please visit our website at guidedbytruth(dot)com and read these articles.
First look for the link to the article titled "Holy Spirit Baptism." It will clear up your misunderstanding on that subject.
There is also an article from our Q&A section which is currently running on our main page. It is titled "Question Regarding Pentecostal History" and addresses our response to these issues much more thoroughly than can be done here.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
acts 2-39
for the promise is unto you, and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the lord our god shall call.
These were not jews it list the tongues that the men spake. This promise is still good today. IF not who stoped it? God has not came again with a new plan.
mandersue 4 years ago
acts 2-38
THEN PETER SAID unto them , REPENT, and be baptised every one of you in the name of JESUS christ for the remission of sins, and ye SHALL receive the GIFT of the HOLY GHOST.
IF you do this with a pure heart you will answer your tongue question. GOD BLESS YOU ALL FOR SEEKING THE TRUTH.
mandersue 4 years ago
We shall and do receive the gift (SINGULAR) of the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit Himself. That is not be confused with the gifts (PLURAL) that were given from Him of which we were told not everyone would receive and that would one day cease. Again, please keep comments on the topic of the video which is the history of the church that falsely teaches these gifts are available today and have been since Acts 2. Even their own history disproves that teaching.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
What is the difference between receiving gift of the holy spirit(acts 2:38) and Baptism of the Holy Spirit(Acts 1:5)
chrismichael1 4 years ago
The gift of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit are the same thing. Acts 2:1-4 was the fulfillment of Acts 1:5 which was spoken to a specific group of people and happened to that same group. In Acts 2:38 another group is receiving the same gift that the apostles in the upper room received, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
1 Corinthians 13-8
charity never faileth: but WHETHER there be prophecies, they hall cease; WHETHER there be tongues, they shall cease; WHETHER there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1corinthians 14-22
wherefor tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them that believe.
mandersue 4 years ago
Exactly. There will come a time when these things will fail, cease and vanish away. We were warned it would happen and it did. The gifts were a sign for unbelieving Jews. We have videos that deal with this doctrinally though, so please keep comments on the topic of this video, which is the history of Pentecostals, not their beliefs.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
so are the new pentecostals wrong or are the old ones.
mandersue 4 years ago
Doctrinally they both are. This video is simply to reveal their history to those who may not know it. It is our hope that when people realize that this has not been happening since Acts chapter 2 as Pentecostals claim it has which is evidenced by the history of their own church, they then might be more willing to search out the truth of this matter in Scripture. We have other videos on Youtube and many articles online that show doctrinally why these teachings are wrong.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
I am almost sure that you will hide from this truth. A. D. 453 "Pentecostal glossolalists history" Pope Leo I, Martyred Oneness Apostolic tongues speakers. (Roth p35) (Baiton p. 130) Pick a year and I will give you History.
kleb707 4 years ago
And where do we see what these "glossoliasts" taught and believed? The fact is that some were "tongues speaking Priscillianists" and Priscilliants were heretical for more than speaking in tongues. They were gnostics who taught "The salvation of man consists in liberation from the domination of matter." Hardly biblical doctrines. Does the fact that gnostics spoke in tongues prove Biblical tongues exist? NO!
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
There are many false doctrines under many names depending on who is teaching, in every religion and every group. This does not mean some of them did not teach truth, or that true bible teaching did not exist. A.D 1182 Thousands of apostolics put to death by Rome. (J.H. Blunt p.412)
kleb707 4 years ago
Are you saying that Parham and Seymour the men behind the great Azusa Street revival were LIARS? These me said, "men have been preaching a partial gospel...now he is bring BACK the pentecostal baptism to the church." They obviously believed they were gone. Did the spirit that gave them tongues reveal to them falsely that they had left the church? You are not simply questioning OUR understanding of history, you are questioning he very basis upon which Pentecostalism today is founded!
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
1901 was not the info age. Tongues did not teach them all things, or they would have invented enternet and went to the moon. Tongues is a sign of receiving the baptism of the spirit. It does make you know every thing.
kleb707 4 years ago
So the gift of tongues was valid but the gift of prophecy required the internet????? WOW!
Please note that this is not a debate forum or message board. It is a comment section for a video. We have appreciated your comments and responded to them, however we are not going to continue to argue with you here. You obviously disagree and that has been duly noted. If you so desperately need a place to voice your opinion feel free to make your own video.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
Sorry Sister, The book of ACTS experiance did not begin in 1906, it began in Jerusalem.
kleb707 4 years ago
The book of Acts experience began in Jerusalem but it ended in 70AD and history simply supports that fact.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
you could not be more wrong. I do not have the time now, but with in the next week or so, I will respond. There have been groups under diff names in every century that have known gifts of tongues and signs and wonders as the Acts church. History simply supports that fact..
kleb707 4 years ago
Many pagans speak in tongues, does the fact that a person who denies God and yet
speaks in a tongue prove Biblical tongues exist? Certianly not. Speaking
in tongues with an incorrect understanding of Scripture does not prove that they are peaking in Biblical tongues. No church that has been recognized as a true church has spoken in tongues. Even the founders of Pentecostalism understood that fact!
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
glossolilia. look it up. Are you going to call every group I can show you pagan? It is not possable to show that it did not exist. You can only try to discredit all the history.
kleb707 4 years ago
The fact is that even the founders of Modern Pentecostals realized that the gifts had indeed ceased and claimed these gifts were returning to the church. Now they are trying to claim otherwise and find a sprinkling of evidence from groups that had serious octrinal issues or have little evidence. Either the gifts existed throughout the church (not in and out of history in rare groups or sects) or it did not. No recognized church experienced them.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
Modern Pentecostals in 1903 were seeking a Bible experiance, which they may have found. This does not make them historians. A.D, 1050 more than 100 towns of Languedoc were in control of Albigensians ( J.H. Blunt pp.15-19)
(J Laux, p.351) (Blunt p.74) many were spirited glossolalist slandered as "Bogomils"
kleb707 4 years ago
If the gifts have always existed you shouldn't have to be a historian it should be obvious. Either every church had them because they were necessary or the church was without them. No one had heard of this sort of thing in any real way until 1901.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
HOW does history support that fact? Just because you dont have a written ledger that reads the gifts were operational you just assume they werent. Hx could have been written by people like yourself, unbelievers which would have obviously left it unrecorded. you must believe to receive !
keithtoyou 4 years ago
Watch the video to find the answer.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
I'm sorry that you are blinded, I will certainly pray for you and your kind. You should really read your Bible and go by that, not what you "think" history is.
soldoutsister01 4 years ago
This video explains how history supports the biblical teaching of cessationism. It reveals that Pentecostalism was founded on this same belief; that gifts HAD ceased up until the founders supposedly experienced them. It also exposes how modern Pentecostals mislead people today into thinking this belief has been around since Acts (which it has not). If you would like to see the biblical reasons for the cessation of the gifts please view our other videos or visit our website.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
i felt the most evil spirt as soon as your web site came on so im sory i couldnt finesh watching it
Telisse 4 years ago
I thank God for healing me through my Pentecostal mother! People oftentimes criticize the Pentecostals for our loud praising of God, crying when filled with the spirit, and because more and more people are going to Pentecostal churches everyday. Don't be jealous but rather share in our delight in Jesus Christ! Tongues will cease when that which is perfect has come. The time is not perfect and we still are in need of the gifts of the Holy Ghost. Praise and glory to you Jesus AMEN!
xueruoluoD 4 years ago
Just by reading all of the different interpretations of one passage of scripture by you few people is an excellent example of why the world has so many different religions. God says that the devil is the author of confusion...and I bet each one of you will say that the other has it wrong and is confused. Maybe religion is of the devil because all I see here is mass confusion!
Grambo7 4 years ago
if read the intire scripture it says altho a tongue will be silent love never fails.
his love is ever lasting
ALLELLUIYA
learn it, accept it, preach it lol
unitedpentecostal 4 years ago
im so tired of people taking one verse out out of the bible and building a doctrine or belief out of it. Read the whole new testament and learn before you build a belief on what one verse in corinthians says...you blind people.
djpvok 4 years ago 3
I believe that all denominations are man-made and Pentecostalism is no exception. The video definitely has merit. The bible never spoke of the gifts leaving. Once they arrived they stayed. Keeping in mind that there was no RECORDED evidence of the gifts "returning" to America until that time of the early 1900's. Just because it picked back up in America, doesn't mean it ceased in other parts of the world. Very good video.
psychotropic7 4 years ago
Thanks for the kind comments. I do, however, want to clarify that the Bible does say that the gifts, including tongues, will cease in 1 Corinthians 13:8. I also want to state that even though this movement began in America, that modern Pentecostals all over the world can trace their roots back to the Azusa Street Revival. There is no historical evidence (since the initial cessation) of tongues or other gifts being exercised in other countries before this time.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
1 Corinthians 13:8 only says the gifts have ceased if one misinterprets that scripture.
It says these things WILL cease, and they will once Christ comes for his bride. If you adhere to the (distorted) view that this scripture states that the spiritual gifts have ceased, you must also adhere to the last part of the verse which states that knowledge has ceased. Clearly, one can see that Knowledge and information have only increased since Paul penned those words.
Zipster0007 4 years ago
Yes, we are increased in knowledge through the study of God's Word. What ceased was the supernatural "gift" of knowledge, not knowledge itself. As Peter said, we now have something greater than the words of prophets or anyone with these gifts because we have the Scripture(2 Peter 19:21). This video was on the history of this movement, to see the actual doctrine explained please view our other videos or visit our website at guidedbytruth (dot) com.
guidedbytruth 4 years ago
Exactly. No historical evidence - which is a matter of choice for documentation's sake and not a requirement.
psychotropic7 4 years ago
1 Cor 14:1-3 refutes the idea that (tongues and prophetic) gifts were understood by all and ceased unless