The Philosophy of Forgiveness

[strontiumXnitrate]

I see it as a sliding scale where on the one side there is the situation that you described with a genuinely hurt person and an insensitive hurting person, and on the other side the opposite situation with 'hurt' person pretending to be eternal victim using his/hers victimhood to manipulate 'hurting' person into eternal guilt. Different combinations of these situations exist, of course, it is not all black and white but the point is manipulation and dishonest behaviour can accur on both sides.

[strontiumXnitrate]

People are the worst. The worst!

[podrag]

@mox1211 basically Stef should rename this video as the Philosophy of Being Unforgiving. I wouldn't have so much of a problem with this video if he were to replace the word 'forgive' with something more suitable. Like 'Ceasing to be an Asshole when the Other Person does Everything that You Haven't Ever Told them to do through Telepathy... even though Telepathy 'doesn't Exist''

[podrag]

@stefbot OK I see what you just did... you took my most emotive post and then commented on it which separated it from the rest and pushes it to the top which in turn makes me look bad. Very good Stef. It's much better for the ego than admitting you might be wrong.

[podrag]

@stefbot I am very curious about your thought processes behind this this video. I'm also shocked by it because I think it's terrible relationship advice. What would you change about this video in retrospect?

[podrag]

OH MY GOD! Now people have to be mind readers? You are discouraging communication? I cannot believe what I'm hearing. Stef what the hell are you doing?

[stefbot]

@podrag You don't sound very forgiving of my errors, or curious about my reasons.

[vtran31]

@podrag I think its more along the lines that the path to forgiveness should be obvious

[podrag]

Well anyway I totally agree with the fdr liberated analysis of this video and, to be honest, I really don't think you are well placed to advise vulnerable people. I will probably make some kind of response to this video in future as I don't think this kind of thing should contiue unchecked lest it damage the freedom movement. Emotionally I'm quite taken aback by it. I honestly feel disappointed.

[podrag]

You don't seem to mention that relationships are about compromise a lot of the time and that it's not necessarily black and white, which is an NPD trait btw. I've really screwed up with friends who've really screwed me sometimes but we all learned how to behave with one another through trial and error. Forgiveness is about allowing and recognising error as well as letting go of ill-feeling. You seem to be shutting yourself out rather than trying to engage. It's a bit worrying to see actually.

[podrag]

Having ignored the dictionary and made up your own definition for a perfectly good word you then don't explain why. You then leave people without a word for forgiveness at all. This seems an extremely dangerous thing to do IMO. George Orwell described it in a famous book. Do you have any idea why you did that?

[mox1211]

@podrag It appears he's only saying forgiveness requires some form of restitution on the part of the offender in order for the offended to forgive and restore the relationship. Don't see where he's making new definitions.

[podrag]

@mox1211 OK read the definition again. If you are still confused after that I don't think I can help you much.

[mox1211]

@podrag Usually the first or second definitions are more legal or technical, then comes the definition that represents the idea on which those technicalities are based: "restitution; restoration to the former or original state or position."

I think you have some valid criticisms, but I don't think latching onto semantic arguments and diagnosing from a distance will help your argument.

[podrag]

@mox1211 Forgiveness means to absolve of debt. I fail to see how one can absolve and require full restitution from someone at the same time. Does forgiveness mean to forgive and not to forgive at the same time? It obviously cannot. Therefore Stef is misrepresenting his position by redefining the word. Basically he is saying that he is unforgiving by the common definition of the word. Do you see what I am saying?

[mox1211]

@podrag I do. I misunderstood where your conflict was, and it's a valid one. He is stretching the definition of forgiveness.

[podrag]

Hi Stef... sorry you seem to be confusing definitions from the start with this video... which is so very important as you say... forgiveness is defined as

1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.

2. To renounce anger or resentment against.

3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example)

Restitution is is something different. You seem to be bringing your own projections rather than 'rationality' into this podcast from the very start.

[mox1211]

@podrag He might have said "restitution" somewhere, but I'm pretty sure he said forgiveness is a type of "restoration"

[N7a7v7i]

I had a best friend for two years who hurt my feelings badly in a long series of lies, verbal abuse and emotional manipulation. Her behavior after I expressed my feelings follows your warnings nearly perfectly and this video has really helped me understand what went wrong there. Thank you, Stefan... you are a light of reason in a world too dark for too long!

[stefbot]

@N7a7v7i i'm glad to have helped, and i'm so sorry about your friend...

[TheMrBrian26]

7 people are very unforgiving :(

[MikeySaysJazz]

Very interesting thoughts, however forgiveness is something that should be given freely because it is ultimately a gift you give to yourself. In your scenario, you describe the negative impact of being bullied into forgiveness. If I refuse to forgive someone because I feel there has been no restitution; that there is no genuineness in the offered apology, I am then exacting MY will upon that person. Personally, I prefer a more spiritual approach to forgiveness, it is far more healthful.

[slaughtz]

@MikeySaysJazz I used to think that. I used to take responsibility for all my emotions. This lead me to a path of sociopathic tendencies. You're not exacting your WILL on anyone by withholding forgiveness; you're saying that I hold the right to forgive you or not and I don't feel like giving it. Forgiveness is not an obligation. If forgiveness was an obligation, what value would it have? It would mean someone can do anything, apologize and then be forgiven for it. You see how it makes it absurd?

[countmockula12]

I wish I would have had an uncle like you growing up. It would have saved me a lot of torment. Keep doing what you're doing. People need you.

[AshleyKScott]

I've tried explaining to people why apologizing on it's own is meaningless. You put why that is into words, and what should be done instead. Thanks for another spectacular video!

[rockstarofredondo]

My mother always does this to me. She's done terrible things to me all of my life, & she refuses to change the way she treats me. She then accuses me of holding grudges because I won't "forgive" her for past offenses, when she completely refuses to accept the responsibility of those offenses. At this point, the relationship cannot ever be restored because of her refusal to fulfill her part in restoring it. At some point, continuing to allow her access to me, is self-abuse.

[RIDDIMWORKS]

Thank you for this video Stef , I found it very helpful and will save it for posterity, i know this film will help others in years to come. You truly heal minds, so many people are happier, freed from so many fears and anxieties from watching your films. Thank you Stef

[RedDevileire]

Excellent video .

[tasinallb]

This was so helpful to me. . it's been 3.5 months since the devestation and betrayal happened. . i need to move onto forgiveness and having to do it alone. . just like the greiving of the relationship was alone. . is difficult but i'm determined. . .The part of not being able to WILL it, and the self -attacking are Key behaviors I need to re examine.

thank you. .

[magicbarry]

Excellent video. However there are some situations where this does not apply. If the person is dead, you can still benefit from forgiving them. There are some situations where it is a choice. And choosing forgiveness often benefits the forgiver more than the forgiven.

[RIDDIMWORKS]

@magicbarry

I think choosing to forgive someone who has passed is still not true forgiveness, it is using 'psychoogy' on oneself to make one feel better, Stef is right, forgiveness has to be an emotional response to be genuine, for there to be 'integrity' in the forgiveness, it must be 'felt'. 'choosing' to forgive is still denial

[ronpaulspanish]

BRRRRILLIANT!

[okcupidvitame]

Very helpful. It's upsetting that this basic logic wasn't taught to me in (both public and catholic) school or by parents.

[roswel1968]

try self-forgiveness, give you to you. Restore youself to back to you, as in the image of LIFE. self-forgiveness is about you undoing your mind conditions, it nothign to with sin or badactions. its you rebirting you into LIFE. seach desteni self-forgivenes.

[andrewh817]

Wow this is one of your best videos Stef.... The phrase "I'm sorry" has replaced restitution in way too many people's lives.

[plutoplatters]

i dont think we ever really "forgive' i think we most often just "forget"

[magician322]

forcing forgiveness is one way people manipulate us , and there must be many many more. i would love stef to talk strictly about manipulation in general. ex. i've found that being a nice person really opens you up to manipulation

[huhwhatrightuhhh]

"Forgiveness is not an occasional act, it is a permanent attitude." - MLK Jr.

I think there are two parts of forgiveness. You're right, forgiveness is a type of restoration but a restoration of either of two things.

[huhwhatrightuhhh]

On the one hand, when you forgive someone because they seek redemption and wish for your restitution, your faith in them is restored. Your trust is renewed, not like it was before, but different in that it's how it was and more. Now, you're right again, this part of forgiveness can only be elicited and not forced.

[huhwhatrightuhhh]

This is the practical aspect of forgiveness. Practical in the sense that repeated actions/occurrences foster certain beliefs -i.e. if you sit on a chair for a hundred days and on only one of those days the chair collapses, you would, practically, believe that the chair could be sat on successfully again. This type of forgiveness, I think, is the easier of the two because you have help it is a joint effort.

[huhwhatrightuhhh]

Conversely, the other kind of forgiveness is not only something that can only be willed, but it is something that MUST be willed. It is the "permanent attitude" of consciously choosing to put it all behind you. It is freeing yourself from all the bad energy associated with who/what has hurt you by transforming the destruction into something productive.

[huhwhatrightuhhh]

When you forgive the situation, the hurt, the intent, the other person even if they dont ask for it, you are restoring yourself, healing your wounds from the tragedy of betrayal. It is finding peace amidst the ruins. And truly, if you do not will for the second kind of forgiveness, the other kind can never be realized because if you do not resolve the war within you for you, then you will never stop warring with the world and those around you.

[huhwhatrightuhhh]

Kindness is within our power even when fondness is not. - Samuel Johnson. This is the attitude I think Martin Luther King was getting at. Even though they might not deserve absolution (because this they only deserve if they earn it) the first kind of forgiveness I believe you should emotionally forgive those that have hurt you because

[huhwhatrightuhhh]

....because though there are few things every person deserves unconditionally, everyone always deserves to be a better personand thats exactly what forgiveness (both kinds) lets people doso give them and yourself thatand dont keep either one of you beholden to a malice curse held forever in your heart.

[huhwhatrightuhhh]

PS: Anyways, great, and as you can see from above, very thought provoking video Stefbot. Thanks for sharing.

[conquesimo]

Speaking of genuinely making someone laugh, I had an involuntary 'lol' when you randomly smiled at the end after being in such intricate thought. Thanks again :-)

[nickpagesongs]

Very good video,Thankyou.

[mickeysxe]

I wish my therapist had your intelligence! This video was awesome. Very helpful.

[dabruin2]

Wonderful video.  I got a lot out of it. Thank you.

[magstertv]

Excellent video and so helpful. Personal peeve: Someone who repeatedly offends and when confronted they justify their actions, or say "Don't sweat the small stuff."

[stefbot]

yes, I quite agree. :)

[spareaxe]

At first I thought you were Robert Duvall.

[qkholster]

Another genius video from Stef.

[Textra1]

You're a wise man. This is why philosophy is still relevant and important. We should be teaching such things to our children in school. Philosophy should be part of the core curriculum in primary/elementary school, and beyond.

[dominikst]

Very useful for me at the moment, thanks.

[Rokasomee]

This video is uber high quality.

[eemad20]

FORGIVENESS as apolitical tool in different culutre :

Hussian former king of Jordan forgive all the individuals who are convicted in attempts to assassinate him ..thay become loyal and so their tribes in atribal society .

In 2002 SAUDIA ARABIA "corrupt regime" face aseries of terorr attacks mainly on US interest"almost weekly" ..thay offer FORGIVENESS for every one who come clean withen 40 days...by doing so thay divide and weaken the network and collect valuable intelligence and scceed

[good4usoul]

Cling to what is good, and hate what is evil. What would Universally Preferable Behavior determine in this instance? Though it is impossible for you to forgive some things, would UPB suggest that it is better to maintain your friendship despite wrongs done, so that time might heal the wounds?

[good4usoul]

If you don't forgive, then what are you doing? Are you saying that you no longer value your relationship with this person? The opposite of forgiveness is condemnation, so what would you do to condemn this person? Should you hate the person because of his... sin, or should you hate his sin, and still seek to save the person?

[good4usoul]

If he is still asking forgiveness, explain that you no longer trust him, and are convinced he is seeking to take advantage of you, and you never want to see him again.

If you have acknowledged the truth, this person might never be forgiven by man, but if they truly repent, they might be forgiven by some higher power, though you, at this point, cannot see how any higher power would do so, either.

[tdaghita]

I actually enjoyed the relationship advice...it helps to see it from a rational perspective.

[cozmikzen]

this is very interesting, i will have to watch it again. i normally dont ask for forgiveness, unless i am truly wrong. and i rarely dispense forgiveness.

[btbking]

Great stuff.

[DontFightTheGreyJew]

This is WisdomOfTheAcorn's other account. I never wont any of you to know that Hitler Stalin Rovsevelt Churchill Wilson MacCain or Obama are in fact micro chipped slaves of the Jew Greys.

Race War is comming Hail Kike Shitler 88!

[iloveyourstory]

I don't like it when people tell you to just "get over it" what is that all about? Like the video, though!

[FistsoFuckinFreedom]

Awesome video. I'm gonna watch it again because it was so good.

[qtronman]

How do you undo past self-attacks?

[RenovatedJon]

Such an important message for people to get. People always say that you can and must forgive people even though, like you said, it is impossible.

[Trandofir]

Right, it's quicker to create a wound than to heal a wound. Great video

[aaron0883]

Great video. I agree with you about not willing emotions ... but the last second seems kind of like a willed smile.

[FistsoFuckinFreedom]

Always with the criticisms... Can't stef just be right?

[aaron0883]

I guess my joke didn't get it's intended effect.

[5ys]

I lol'd.

[FistsoFuckinFreedom]

Neither did mine.

[Censeo]

If you are confident enough that the person really understands what they've done, you can forgive without full restitution, if you think full restitution is too much to demand from them.

[AnarchyInYourHead]

I used to (only half jokingly) say that a personal short-coming of mine was the inability to hold a grudge. It took me a while to realize that really was a short-coming. When I stopped tolerating ppl who didn't respect me and just started moving on from "friends" like that, my self-esteem went WAY up. Good points.

[stefbot]

well put brother!

[bigcatz4455]

lol a few of your minutes?? just kidding dude good video.

[stackedmidgets]

Very helpful, thanks Stef!

[DrTommyGouranga]

great video

[overmind25]

LOL! Someone gave you 1 star.

[stefbot]

haha I forgive him ;)

[overmind25]

How kind of you.

[bigcatz4455]

sorry didnt mean to give thumbs down.