"Fear mongering and put downs are not the way to gain respect" You've just described the majority of your posts on this subject so far.
"This discussion is over" I've not been posting with any real belief that I could convince you of anything, since you've made it abundantly clear that no amount of evidence could ever convince you that you were wrong. I've been posting so that anyone reading could know the actual facts about vaccines.
"over 70% if canadians think 911 was an inside job" A lot of people believe the moon landings were faked too, but that doesn't mean that they're right. Just because a belief is popular, doesn't automatically mean that its true.
"(re: providing links) I can do the same" And yet you haven't. Also, one big difference is that the links I provide don't stop at finding possible conflicts of interest, but actually go through and examine the quality of the study itself.
@ArcanaKnight That link you provided is just another opinion... propaganda... Besides... Like I said... I do not care ... It truly is a matter of trust... which the vaccine providers have really lost. Respect is earned. I lost respect for the government. Sorry but this is where I get spiritual... Since the argument is NIL
@ArcanaKnight The complexity of this discussion cannot be properly addressed in this forum period... Fear mongering and put downs are not the way to gain respect... This is degenerate and is why the government lost respect in the first place... Anyone who engages in this type of behaviour should not be trusted.. However like I said... This discussion is over...
@ArcanaKnight There really is no point in fighting over all this anyways... I have no agenda.. although I feel like you and Poodoo have one... even if you don't you come off that way... I think the point is vaccines are not going away... So why get so uptight about it? If you really want to help the world... Trying bettering yourself rather than trying to convince some conspiracy nut like myself that vaccines really are gods gift.
"Rates of autism spectrum disorder among children born in the 1990s surged dramatically, from about 1 in 5,000 to 1 in 150 children." This surge can be attributed mostly, if not completely, to a broadening of the definition and increased surveillance (even teachers are trained to spot the signs these days).
SafeMinds is an anti-vax misinformation organization, and it trots out people like Healy the same way creationists trot out "scientists" who agree with them.
In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.
- In Oman between 1988 and 1989, a polio outbreak occurred amongst thousands of fully vaccinated children. The region with the highest attack rate had the highest vaccine coverage. The region with the lowest attack rate had the lowest vaccine coverage. (The Lancet, 21/9/91)
-The February 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of obstetricians and 66% of pediatricians refused to take the rubella vaccine.
- In 1979, Sweden abandoned the whooping cough vaccine due to its ineffectiveness. Out of 5,140 cases in 1978, it was found that 84% had been vaccinated three times! (BMJ 283:696-697, 1981)
In 1978, a survey of 30 States in the US revealed that more than half of the children who contracted measles had been adequately vaccinated. (The People's Doctor, Dr R Mendelsohn)
- In 1977, Dr Jonas Salk who developed the first polio vaccine, testified along with other scientists, that mass inoculation against polio was the cause of most polio cases throughout the USA since 1961. (Science 4/4/77 "Abstracts" )
In the 1970's a tuberculosis vaccine trial in India involving 260,000 people revealed that more cases of TB occurred in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. (The Lancet 12/1/80 p73)
In the UK between 1970 and 1990, over 200,000 cases of whooping cough occurred in fully vaccinated children. (Community Disease Surveillance Centre, UK)
In 1967, Ghana was declared measles free by the World Health Organisation after 96% of its population was vaccinated. In 1972, Ghana experienced one of its worst measles outbreaks with its highest ever mortality rate. (Dr H Albonico, MMR Vaccine Campaign in Switzerland, March 1990)
- In Germany, compulsory mass vaccination against diphtheria commenced in 1940 and by 1945 diphtheria cases were up from 40,000 to 250,000.In the USA in 1960, two virologists discovered that both polio vaccines were contaminated with the SV 40 virus which causes cancer in animals as well as changes in human cell tissue cultures. Millions of children had been injected with these vaccines. (Med Jnl of Australia 17/3/1973 p555)
- In 1871-2, England, with 98% of the population aged between 2 and 50 vaccinated against smallpox, it experienced its worst ever smallpox outbreak with 45,000 deaths. During the same period in Germany, with a vaccination rate of 96%, there were over 125,000 deaths from smallpox. (The Hadwen Documents)
"But we can say that it demonstrates how the CDC evaded their responsibility to investigate vaccine safety questions. Vaccine safety oversight should be removed from the CDC and given to an independent agency."
The government recently conceded a federal vaccine court case which agreed that a child regressed into autism as a result of 9 vaccines given on one day.
"The full implications of this primate study await publication of the research in a scientific journal," noted Theresa Wrangham, president of SafeMinds.
"SafeMinds calls for large scale, unbiased studies that look at medical conditions associated with autism and the effects of vaccines given as a regimen."
The group's request for research echoes that of Dr. Bernadine Healy, Former NIH Director, in a CBS interview earlier this week. She asserted that public health officials have been too quick to dismiss an autism-vaccine connection when the research has been insufficient.
The vaccines given were those recommended for U.S. infants in the 1990s, including several with the mercury preservative thimerosal and the Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine. Rates of autism spectrum disorder among children born in the 1990s surged dramatically, from about 1 in 5,000 to 1 in 150 children."This research underscores the critical need for more investigation into immunizations, mercury, and the alterations seen in autistic children," stated Lyn Redwood, director of SafeMinds.
Safety studies of medicines are typically conducted in monkeys prior to use in humans, yet such basic research on the current childhood vaccination regimen has never before been done.The abstracts presented at IMFAR, the world's top autism science conference, describe biological changes and altered behavior in vaccinated macaques that are similar to those observed in children with autism. Unvaccinated animals showed no such adverse outcomes.
Infant Vaccines Produce Autism Symptoms In New Primate Study By University Of Pittsburgh Scientists
Findings released Friday showed that infant monkeys given vaccines officially recommended by the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) exhibited autism-like symptoms. Lead investigator Laura Hewitson of the University of Pittsburgh and colleagues presented study results at the International Meeting for Autism Research (IMFAR) in London.
"Infant Vaccines Produce Autism Symptoms In New Primate Study By University Of Pittsburgh Scientists"
That "research" is crap science through and through. It suffers from so many methodological flaws that I still marvel that it managed to get through any sort of peer review, much less IACUC review, and its lead investigator has a massive conflict of interest. tinyurlDOTcom/6tem7mg
@ArcanaKnight oh yeah you were reading about that reporter who is a criminal who likes to terrorize mothers who have autistic children whom falsely reported Wakefields primate study was a fraud? Yeah I know all about that... Wakefield only had the best people in the field do independent analysis... Yeah but somehow a reporter knows more... Yeah good luck with that arcane...
@murronius "whom falsely reported Wakefields primate study was a fraud" I believe you're mixing up your facts. The study which Deer called a fraud was Wakefield's original MMR study, not his later primate study (which in fact uses the same exact data as the study you posted earlier). Here's a review of his faulty primate study: tinyurlDOTcom/6ugqqeu There is also nothing "independent" about Walker-Smith and Dhillon's analysis.
@ArcanaKnight In the end I don not really give a rats ass about wakefield or whomever doing their stupid studies anyways... Studies are all flawed to one degree or another period... since to begin with monkeys are not humans... The bottom line is vaccines have in past been show to be ineffective in many cases and actually causing harm in many cases... The criticism is of the fear mongering pharmas that are profit not health driven... With even the CDC virtually admitting the link
@ArcanaKnight So Aracana just keep getting your vaccines and I will not get mine... its not a big deal... Maybe you will live longer and healthier than me... maybe not... and to be honest I do not really care... I will let God decide who is the better person... That is not me to decide... This world matters not... It will pass as does day into night passes... Eventually all will be revealed... you will die regardless if you get vaccines or not as will I.. you might want to worry where your going
@podoau Poodoo... Actually it doesn't matter what you say... you will be judged and when you die... you will be reborn... into a suitable world to learn your lessons... Birth rebirth and Karma... God is just a word used to describe the force that put you here... and although you can explain scientifically how it happens you cannot explain your conscience... Since that is the beginning of understanding that science cannot ever explain everything... Conspiracies are a fact. Proven fact of history
@podoau So Therefore POODOO your actually the nut... Because you think that you and your kind will get away with all the evil that you have supported... But of course you won't... You will suffer equal to all the suffering you caused... and so will I... Even science can explain this through one action always causes another action of equal force... Calling someone a conspiracy nut doesn't make it true... It just shows your low brow lack of actual intelligence.. In fact I sumise your IQ at 92 tops
@podoau You see I have something you will never have POODOO... I have faith... yes thats right... something that an atheist can never have since they do not believe in Karma or reincarnation... They just believe this is all a chemical reaction... Which just means I know where I am heading... I feel sorry that you do not know the truth about life... That this world doesn't matter... what matters is you Karma and thats all that matters... You will die and be reborn accordingly believe it or not..
@podoau Science requires evidence... Science is fine... However there are things you cannot explain... like your conscience for instance... your spirit... Your awareness... Birth death rebirth Karma... You believe in science as the saviour... I say science in and of itself will save no one... Since living can be worse than dying... in as far as vaccines go the pharmas and government have done a terrible PR job... no one trusts them anymore.. over 70% if canadians think 911 was an inside job...
@podoau Yeah it says Canadians have brains... I do not need to prove anything to you or Arcana... Scientific proof is not required for something that you will never explain... You will never explain conscience scientifically... If you think alqueda did 911 you there are two things definite... One is you cannot think for yourself... the other is you really do either have extremely low intelligence or your extremely unaware... It is impossible for the buildings to have fallen from the jets...
@podoau Again just another example of gullibility... 911 being an inside job is not debatable... It's is actually a scientifically proven fact that the planes could not cause the damage claimed by the official story... Don't even bother replying if your going to argue about this...Oh and if you think the government isn't capable... look up operation north woods.. just another black ops similar to 911 that the government admitted to but simply did not follow through on. Again lies and deceit ..
@podoau Therefore it is in fact you who may be wrong... You may have to accept that you are wrong... But like I said... I do not really care... vaccines really to me are besides the point. They are about money and control. Period. Not health and welfare like claimed. Next you will be saying that MK ultra never existed. And yes I know that when you die you will simply be reborn again. However this does not mean I have physiological evidence to show you... it just means I saw it.. you didn't..
@murronius " And yes I know that when you die you will simply be reborn again. However this does not mean I have physiological evidence to show you... it just means I saw it.. "
no, you think you saw it,, and you just want to beleive it.
@podoau "no, you think you saw it,, and you just want to beleive it." You think you just wrote this last statement but really you just want to believe it... Everything is a thought... even your eyesight... All senses translate into thought... You know nothing about reincarnation because you falsely believe that science has to prove something before it can be true.You are the one who wants to believe... I just know what has been made apparent.
@podoau I am not biased either way.. you are.. your scared of what reincarnation means to you personally... Fear of something does not make it untrue... In fact your argumentativeness just shows your lack of understanding... Read Dale Carnegie... If you want to influence people start agreeing with them... Reincarnation was not something I was taught... I studied it after being shown that it is the truth... and only after.. It doesn't matter to me if you believe it or not. You have your own path
@podoau All these criminals that run the world will all have to suffer their own Karma when they die... Even in this life many of them suffer... Yes they are rich and powerful here but ultimately they have to face their own Karma... You nor I cannot change that with all the arguing and insulting in the world.. I will look out for my own karma and I suggest you do the same.. You cannot and will not change the world.. nor does it matter if you could.. SInce that is not your purpose here.. nor mine
@podoau Life is eternal... You can deny it but you know I am right regardless of the angry spiteful words that come out of your mouth... You will ascend or descend in your lives hereafter according to your Karma... That is how simple life really is... There is nothing more too it. It is likely that the more benevolent of us will be the ones ascending... and the more aggressive war mongering descending... Faith is the belief that good will triumph over evil no matter how grim things look today...
@podoau Fortunately for you it does not matter if you believe in it or not... You do not have to believe in the law of Karma and reincarnation for it to be a fact... Which simply translated means that if you live a good life whatever that may be... you will move on to a better life when you die... even if you do not believe in it... Or you may not move upwards you may be stuck here to learn a lesson that may take eternity to learn ... like me.. EGO is the first enemy that we all must defeat
@podoau In fact look at this argument that we have raged over on here... Obviously there is nothing to gain other than to satisfy our fragile egos... This is not about vaccines... This is just about a pissing contest... which is all the ego is ever about... It is a low vibration...
@podoau eventually your soul will come to realize this truth... For me it was living this same life over thousands of times maybe millions.. Like in the movie Groundhog day... For you maybe it will never happen.Maybe your better off than me knowing this truth. But the fact is I have seen it and you have not... There is no way to prove it and probably never will be. however that does not mean it is not true. Nor does it matter..Since the truth is the truth and this world is what does not matter.
@podoau From what I can understand about this spirituality is that everyone caught up in this world is basically doomed... Be in the world not of the world... That is why all the vaccines do not matter if this world is basically hell... Why would you want to live longer? Makes no sense. This is also along the lines of "it's no better to be safe than sorry" I am 46 and I can honestly say this particular world isn't so great. So why would I want to extend it?
@podoau No not everything is a conspiracy... But why would you even venture to trust a government that is fully capable of conspiracy and has been exposed for it in the past ... Thats like trusting a convicted felon... Makes no logical sense... they have shown their true colours... The point is the government who pushes vaccines is completely responsible for people not trusting them... Only a stupid person would trust them... On any level whatsoever.
@podoau their leadership is crap... Leadership is about do as I do... Well if everyone does what the government does we will basically be exactly where we are today... constant war and hate.. Yep thats great leadership isn't it... War hate anger and aggression and bullyism... Thats the leadership we have... You have to be sedated to not realize this... You basically live in the "HELL SYSTEM" not the "HEALTH SYSTEM"...
@podoau Which brings us back to the fact that you think I am a conspiracy religious nut... When in fact I am rightfully questioning the authorities... You believe they are not capable of conspiracy yet history shows they are. Have you ever heard of buyer beware? It's actually an intelligent concept. You would have me think it isn't. Since there really is no answer..
@podoau You see this is all just turmoil... You believe obviously that people should be vaccinated by force.. this is where the world fails.. However it is my Karma that I am here in this world with all its wonders and all its evils. We will suffer or be rewarded according to our Karma.. You may even be rewarded for corruption in this world... But when you die you will likely have to be on the receiving end of someone with corrupt power over you if you were abusive in your past life.. balance
@podoau Yes I know for a fact that you will be reborn... I cannot however say where you will go when you die... who, what, where or when... I can say however that faith is all you have when you die... faith in Nature... the Nature that put you here in the first place.. I remember all the good and bad things I have done in my past... I know why I am where I am.. You haven't had that sight yet... eventually you will ... maybe not this life but eventually... thats why vaccines do not matter anyways
@podoau Also your too unintelligent to realize that no matter what all the anti-vaccine people say. vaccines are not going to stop... Nor will all the corruption stop... it isn't meant to. Vaccines will double in sales by 2016 from about 25 billion to over 50 billion... So all your anger and whatnot towards people who believe in freedom is really ignorant. You nor I can change the world.. ultimately what is meant to be will be... nor does any of it matter. You are not meant to change this world.
@podoau Yes usually people who believe in God or have a belief of some sort of power beyond their understanding are people with higher intellect... It is the ignorant heathens no matter how scientifically enlightened who truly are the unintelligent...
@murronius "usually people who believe in God or have a belief of some sort of power beyond their understanding are people with higher intellect"
Wrong.. Studies show that atheists are more intelligent that religious people. But on a larger scale, discussing correlations between IQ and religiosity without a grasp of the relevant underlying factors is something of a parlor game
@ArcanaKnight Since neither of us is qualified to really argue this anyways nor can we prove shit on this forum. Tell me. what would you do if you were wrong? Is it still ok to push vaccines for profit? Another question. Do you really believe that the people that sell vaccines do not care more about the bottom line than if they hurt people or protect them? Just asking so I can get my head around your perspective. Personally I think vaccines are the biggest junk science ever.
@murronius "I think vaccines are the biggest junk science ever. " Why exactly do you think that? Is that belief based on anything other than anti-corporate sentiment and anecdotal evidence?
"the people that sell vaccines do not care more about the bottom line..." Of course they care about the bottom line (as do all companies), but that's why its in their best interest to release as safe a product as possible, because to do otherwise would end up hurting their bottom line.
@ArcanaKnight but that's why its in their best interest to release as safe a product as possible, because to do otherwise would end up hurting their bottom line. Ummmm nope... They are involved with the same people who own and control most of the media... so they can lie their faces off... They have also been given almost complete immunity from prosecution under almost any circumstance... which is about the only thing that is immune from their vaccines... their bank accounts...
@podoau since I know people who have gotten the illness that were vaccinated It wouldn't matter to me... Not too mention dying is just part of life and does not concern me
@ArcanaKnight "Infant Vaccines Produce Autism Symptoms In New Primate Study By University Of Pittsburgh Scientists" Right but it is still just your bias and opinion that it is junk science... but anything the pharmas trot out is above reproach right?
@murronius "its still your bias and opinion that it is junk science" Not at all; the link I provided even went through and explained exactly why that study was junk, which you would know if you had bothered to look at it. I've also not said that "anything the pharmas trot out is above reproach", that's just another of your strawmen. Also, don't talk to me of hypocrisy while you ignore the fact your favored studies wouldn't pass your own standards regarding conflicts of interest.
@ArcanaKnight I tried your link it didn't work and that is the exact problem with this forum... I have read the people who tried to discredit certain studies... I have also read how the pharmas studies were also discredited or more disturbing... non-existent...
@murronius "I tried your link it didn't work and that is the exact problem with this forum" You just have to replace the DOT with a period, and it will work.
"They are involved with the same people who own and control most of the media" And there we go with the conspiracy mongering again.
@ArcanaKnight Yeah I get it... I really do ... Yes indeed... 200 million odd years of evolution and all of a sudden we need to poke ourselves with toxins in the hopes of protecting ourselves from them; and anyone who says otherwise is a bat shit, paranoid, tinfoil, dog abusing, baby hater and will be reviled by everyone... does that about sum it up arcana?
@murronius "all of a sudden we need to poke ourselves with toxins in the hopes of protecting ourselves from them" Why do you think vaccines for these diseases were developed in the first place? Its because these diseases ravaged populations, killing some and crippling many more. tinyurlDOTcom/6wnqjmk
"and anyone who says otherwise is a bat shit,..." No, that little strawman of yours isn't correct.
@ArcanaKnight The fact that you have to use stock terms like Ad hoc, or straw man... shows your probably a shill working for the pharmas... but your wasting your time here anyways... Since freedom is the issue... And we all know that vaccination is exactly the opposite of freedom... at least forced vaccination... Don't worry there is nice warm place in Hell waiting for you... Albeit I will not decide that... However just like abortion vaccines are a perversion...
@murronius "The fact that you have to use stock terms like Ad hoc, or straw man shows your probably a shill working for the pharmas" No, it just shows I'm familiar with terms relating with logical fallacies, and that you keep using them. I was wondering how long it would take for you to make this baseless accusation; when you can't argue the facts, resort to personal attacks, huh?
@ArcanaKnight First off you started the personal attacks... I am not going to look back but it said something to the affect of ... The world would be a better place without my gene pool.. Yeah I guess that isn't offensive is it... As for atheists being smarter PFFT... Yes I have memories of having lived many lives... Sorry that you are not so blessed... If you really were as smart as you think you are you would know that there are some things science will never explain.. I am doubting your there
@murronius "it said something to the affect of ... The world would be a better place without my gene pool" I never said anything even close to that effect. You must be thinking of someone else, probably podoau since he (or she) was also talking about atheists, faith, etc as well.
@murronius "200 million odd years of evolution and all of a sudden we need to poke ourselves with toxins in the hopes of protecting ourselves from them"
ha ha.. so wrong.. And how many millions of people died because of diseases that no long do because we dicovered vaccines ??
Thousands of people died slow agonising deaths from smallpox. Its now erradicated thanks to vaccines.
@podoau Small pox was already on the decline when they came out with the vaccine ... If you read all my posts you would also know that in the late 1800's small pox vaccines was a complete failure...
The ability of vaccines to generate high revenue and profits despite being priced at a premium has proven attractive to both existing players in the market and to big pharmaceutical companies who have been watching the development of the market with interest.
“The global vaccines industry was valued at $24 billion in 2009 and is expected to reach $52 billion in 2016 at a Compounded Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 11.5%. The vaccines market, which was once considered a low-profit segment of the top players’ portfolios, showed a turnaround after the resounding success of Prevnar, the first blockbuster vaccine.
youtube.com/watch?v=Dh-nkD5LSIg this link is to a video on cnn that shows the pharma has admitted the link to autism... therefore please shut up everyone who says it isn't proven... it is proven... the only question is... are they still worth the risk..other than that just don't open your stupid mouths please... thanks! you have to add the world wide web prefix onto that link
Vaccines are about behaviour modification and that is why some kids end up autistic... They are intentionally trying to cause a specific form of brain damage... Which would be more like very mild autism... The idea is to lower resistance to control... There is really little doubt about this... The government are nothing but a criminally controlled cabal... face it... At the least they through a deserved poor reputation are at fault for non compliance and at worst outright corrupt causing harm...
Thimerosal has been removed from MOST, NOT ALL childhood vaccines. PLUS, we have known about multiple vaccine admin.problems for years. Wakefield situation isn't over yet; just verifies the medical politics when people get in the way of big money concerns & depopulationists. Vaccines have been linked to violence & criminality. They stimulate the wrong immunoglobulins, introduce foreign genetic material, & can contain aluminum, allergens, formaldehyde, & substances known to induce infertility..
One problem with Deth's hypothesis is that it doesn't fit with the current evidence. Not only have studies repeatedly shown no link between thimerosal (his claimed cause) and autism. Another problem is that thimerosal has been phased out of the childhood vaccines, yet autism rates have been unaffected.
@ArcanaKnight Actually, there is evidence provided by both parents of young children and adults who have in some form suffered from vaccine injuries. There was a recent case of a woman named Stephanie Arnold, who received the Menomune vaccine ( or known as Meningococcal Polysaccharide) while attending college at the age of 21. This is her testimony - watch?v=0FskFGxknEo
@EmilyGreene1984 That's called anecdotal evidence, and its considered unreliable for a reason. Examination of Wakefield's study shows a perfect example of this: parents claimed that the symptoms showed up only after the children were vaccinated, but their medical records show that the majority of the children were showing early symptoms well before they received the shots. I'm skeptical of Arnold's diagnosis because she claims to have been cured by detox (which is ineffective on autism).
@ArcanaKnight Courts don't award $1.5 M + $.5 M per year & seal the records when a case is based only on anecdotal evidence. In addition to attenuated live viruses & bacteria, vaccines routinely contain ethylene glycol, phenol, benzethonium chloride, formaldehyde, aluminum, & polysorbate 80 (infertility). Merck's MMR is grown on aborted fetal tissues.
@GetItRight4aChange "when a case is based only on anecdotal evidence" Actually, in a way they do. The criteria for proving something in a court case are much different than they are for proving something in science.
If vaccines were really responsible for autism, even partially, we would expect to see drops in autism rates when vaccination rates drop, yet they continue to remain steady regardless of vaccination rate, thimerosal content, etc. Vaccines just don't cause autism.
CONT Listing ingredients like that is baseless fear-mongering which completely ignores the fact that toxicity is in the dose, and there just isn't enough of any of those ingredients to be harmful. For example, even small children have several times more formaldehyde in their bloodstream naturally (its a byproduct of metabolism) than is present in the vaccines.
Also, none of that changes the fact that Wakefield's data doesn't match the children's records.
@ArcanaKnight Duh get a grip... The link is 100% proven... Get your head out of your butt... Seriously buddy... Ever heard of the hypocratic oath? Even if vaccines didn't ... vaccines fail the hypocratic oath... period... and like are you so naive to believe that the people who sell the vaccines and lobby the government to push them could not just be out strictly for financial gain? You must be fully up to date on your vaccines if you believe that... vaccines and behaviour modification lol
@murronius "The link is 100% proven" No its not. In fact, just the opposite is true, and this is also shown in the real-world statistics; autism rates have been completely unaffected by changes in thimerosal content and vaccination rates. The rest of your posts are little more than conspiracy mongering nonsense.
@ArcanaKnight Pffft.... Get a grip... You can't even accept the truth when your faced with the facts... I have read all those studies your talking about... they have all been blatantly disproven... On the payroll of the very people who make the vaccines...
@murronius "I have read all those studies your talking about... they have all been blatantly disproven" No they haven't, but even if you choose to ignore them, the real-world statistics still don't support you. Autism rates have remained completely unaffected despite changes in vaccination rate, thimerosal content, etc (which shouldn't be true if they were even a partial cause of it).
@ArcanaKnight Statistically the rate of autism before they started using the tri-vaccine was about 1 in 5000... after the tri-vaccine it is now about 1 in 180... As far as them vaccinating less... Well I have not heard or read that anywhere..most people are getting more vaccines than ever before... every time you turn around they are pushing a new flu vaccine... Follow the money... Send me the link that shows the stats that the rate of vaccination is decreasing at this alarming level...
@murronius I'm actually referring specifically to drops in vaccination rates, usually due to anti-vax fearmongering. This can be seen most clearly in places like the UK or Japan; vaccination rates fell, yet autism rates remained completely unaffected. The rise in autism rates can be attributed mostly (if not completely) to increased surveillance (eg. even teachers are now trained to spot the signs) and a broadening of the definition.
@ArcanaKnight I would have to research this to see if it is true... It sounds a little unlikely that you could tell anything from a few people abstaining from Vaccines... Also you denied that the pharmas admitted a link... Did you even look at the video I posted below? I clearly shows the pharmas admitting that 1 in 50 children are at risk of vaccine induced autism like symptoms... due to what they called a rare genetic disorder... However Autism like symptoms is autism and 1 in 50 is not rare
@murronius "It sounds a little unlikely that you could tell anything from a few people abstaining from Vaccines" I'm not talking about just a few people though, the vaccination rate in the UK dropped about 15% following Wakefield's awful study, yet there hasn't even been a blip in the autism rate corresponding with this drop (which there should have been if they were linked).
@ArcanaKnight Hmm I saw the same video you did and I hear the head of the CDC admitting that the vaccine does cause autism like symptoms in people with this genetic disorder... Not sure how you figure she did not say that when it is clear that is exactly what she said... If anyone is twisting words it is Berdinger or whatever her name is... The guy that commented on the video is exactly correct... The vaccine rate dropping 15% means nothing... Those are arbitrary figures...
@murronius@murronius "Those are arbitrary figures" Absolute BS; you just don't want to admit that the autism rate being completely unaffected by millions of people choosing not to be vaccinated is a pretty clear sign that vaccines aren't a cause of autism, probably because your conspiracy mongering can't explain it away.
@ArcanaKnight It really sounds like your just refusing to accept the reality that vaccines can and do cause harm in some cases... And that the pharmas are simply out to make money and that they do not really care about public safety as much as they care about making more money... These are really indisputable facts... Look into the Gulf war syndrome... things will become more clear... Basically they are liars and corrupted... No one is disputing some vaccination... over vaccination is the issue
@murronius@murronius "...that vaccines can and do cause harm in some cases" I'm not disputing that vaccines can have side-effects, though they're hundreds and even thousands of times less likely to occur than the complications caused by the diseases they protect against. What I am disputing is the belief that one of those side effects is autism; multiple studies, as well as real-world statistics have repeatedly shown that there is no link.
CONT "No one is disputing some vaccination" Actually, there are people who dispute that.
"It isn't a conspiracy theory" Conspiracy Theory: A belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event. Sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy theory to me. There are plenty of valid reasons to be anti-corporate or anti-government, but vaccines just aren't one.
@ArcanaKnight Right but really you are the one that cannot accept that even the CDC says that Vaccines cause problems in about 1 in 50 children amounting to at the very least autism like symptoms... Conspiracy mongering LMAO ROTFL... Ok Arcana... give me one good reason that a pharma should do anything for the betterment of mankind rather than simply make themselves rich? Answer that simple question and I will listen to your side... Otherwise its buyer beware... and I ain't buying..
@murronius "even the CDC says that Vaccines cause problems in about 1 in 50 children" Again not true. The 1 in 50 number was the upper end of a purely SPECULATIVE estimate of people who might have the same mitochondrial disorder as Poling, not those that have developed similar "autism like symptoms".
Your claims are consistently wrong or exaggerated; you should find new sources because the ones you're working from now don't seem reliable.
@ArcanaKnight Not conspiracy just simple plain old... good old... Crooked companies bullshitting the public... Tell me Aracana... what makes a vaccines company so honest? The problem with people like you is that you just blindly trust the pharmas and the corrupted government... Thats just plain gullibility... If you think its a conspiracy then I guess you must think the tuskegee syphillis study wasn't real even though Clinton officially apologized only of course after being caught... naive man
@murronius "just blindly trust the pharmas and the corrupted government" Did you miss the part where I said that there are good reasons for being anti-corporate or anti-government? How exactly does that sound like blind trust? What I trust is the evidence, and the evidence continually shows that vaccines work and that they don't cause autism.
@ArcanaKnight lolololol OMG here you are calling me a conspiracy theorist fear mongered... but your using the pharmas fear mongering to push vaccines... lol Oh and ( I said that there are good reasons for being anti-corporate or anti-government? ) Gee if I didn't know better that sounds like a conspiracy idealism... Well well... So if you cannot trust them... why do you think "all" the studies are ethical and factual? Lying is a main part of not trusting someone or some entity...
@ArcanaKnight Heres the truth BUDDY... Vaccines should be total choice... Not forced or even implied force... They should not be funded by the government... People should have to pay for them... (takes out the corrupt aspect of government) therefore if people didn't choose them and get a serious illness they have only themselves to blame... while the people who chose to get them have all the protection of this wonder medicine... then eventually we can see who is healthier.
@murronius "therefore if people didn't choose them and get a serious illness they have only themselves to blam" The problem with that though is that it would put at risk those who CAN'T get vaccinated, as well as the small percentage for whom the vaccine wasn't effective.
"...population subduction and control" Conspiracy mongering nonsense.
@ArcanaKnight Elephant in the room... the pharmas have everything to gain to sell vaccines (billions of profit in private coffers) and everything to lose if the MMR vaccine cause autism... which in and of itself proves nothing... but it does show Motive... Yet the mothers who watched their completely normal children get vaccinated , then have a severe fever, after which they are declared autistic... have only ridicule to gain... Or doctors who speak out lose their licence... Motive... who has it
@murronius "the pharmas have everything to gain to sell vaccines" One pharma company makes more selling a handfull of drugs than the entire vaccine industry combined. If your claims about them were true, they would instead use the money spent on vaccines on R&D for drugs for more cosmetic problems like Viagra (those are the big money-makers), plus they would make more selling the drugs to treat the symptoms of the diseases we are currently being protected against than they do on vaccines.
@ArcanaKnight LOLOL measles is not a serious disease buddy period... Those stats you presented are complete horseshit fear mongering...So its better to have retards than a few complications anyways... lololol... The pharmas make shit loads of guaranteed money from Vaccines... Seriously I was joking before about you being up to date on your vaccines but I am starting to think maybe there is truth to it...I also clearly did bring up the tuskagee syphillis study for the third time just now..
@murronius "measles is not a serious disease buddy period"
About 30% of measles cases develop one or more complications, including
•Pneumonia, which is the complication that is most often the cause of death in young children.
•Ear infections occur in about 1 in 10 measles cases and permanent loss of hearing can result. It is the leading cause of blindness among African children.
Measles kills almost 1 million children in the world each year.
@murronius "Those stats you presented are complete horseshit fear mongering" Not true, and if you had done any actual research instead of relying solely upon personal anecdotes, you would know about it.
If you had any actual facts to support your claims, that might be more convincing, but you've continually shown that have nothing but reliance on anecdotes, opinion, and an ignorance/denial of the facts. I agree that blind trust is bad, but blind mistrust like yours is just as bad.
@ArcanaKnight Right, nice that you keep going on about the worlds "health organizations" which are owned by the pharmaceuticals who you say do not profit but in fact do profit billions from vaccines... Vaccines do cause harm so they do not pass the hypocratic oath... Sides affects are a known fact... People actually do and have died from taking vaccines... So do no harm first is out the window with vaccines. Statistics mean nothing as they can lie about them... So keep flapping... means nothing
@murronius "Sides affects are a known fact" By that faulty logic, EVERY medical treatment doesn't pass the Hippocratic oath because they ALL have side-effects, even something as commonplace as aspirin. Once again, you're exaggerating the likelihood of the vaccine's side effects while ignoring and straight-up denying the much more likely complications caused by the diseases they protect against.
@ArcanaKnight Again you simply ignored the 1970's flu vaccine and the fact that they do not vaccinate for small pox due to the side affects... Polio has a track record of atrocity as well.. people getting polio from the vaccine and people being crippled from the vaccine...or the whooping cough vaccine.. another piece of garbage.. These are all FACTS... Until you take profit out of medicine it is likely that people will remain skeptical of the integrity of the vaccines.
@murronius "they do not vaccinate for small pox due to the side affects" No, they don't vaccinate against smallpox anymore because its been wiped out in the wild (thanks mostly to vaccines); it would be like vaccinating against the black plague
"people being crippled from the vaccine" Again, the odds of that happening are hundreds and even thousands of times less likely than complications from polio itself. You're more likely to be struck by lightning than to have such side effects
@ArcanaKnight Sure Arcana you know best except you offer absolutely nothing to back up anything you say.. But if I say it its automatically wrong and everyone that says so is automatically in conflict and their science is junk..Sounds like hypocrisy.. and you do not address any key points such as profitability=corruption...You avoid it because its the elephant in the room.. Nor can you address any of the points about how vaccines have failed... and they are by the way all verified...
@murronius "But if I say it its automatically wrong" Stop with the strawman exaggerations already; its not automatically wrong because you say it, you just happen to say many wrong things. I've also provided reasons why its junk science, its not just because I say so.
@ArcanaKnight "Stop with the strawman exaggerations already; its not automatically wrong because you say it, you just happen to say many wrong things" hmm nope again... everything on here is entirely opinion... therefore it is exactly like I said... which is the whole problem with the vaccines debate to begin with... There really is no "honest" debate... the people who you claim do false studies are the ones suggesting outside independent people to conduct tests to prove safety and efficacy
@ArcanaKnight You sound ravenous the way you defend Vaccines yet you have not cited one link or addressed even one key point... You cannot explain the failures in the past of vaccines... You just sit there trying to discredit what I have brought to the table... It is obvious you have some vested interest in Vaccines... It is a fact that vaccines have failed in the past... So tell me there arcana what makes the vaccine industry honest? You still haven't answered that one simple question..
@murronius "yet you have not cited one link or addressed even one key point" I've addressed several, you've just dismissed them out of hand for little or no reason. I've also provided links to support my claims (and offered to supply even more if you had wanted), and there are even more that can be found on my page.
@ArcanaKnight "I've also provided links to support my claims (and offered to supply even more if you had wanted), and there are even more that can be found on my page." I can do the same... Just that for every study I can find one that contradicts it... Like I said same old same old... So I guess until someone independent and agreed to be independent does those studies and they are truly honest... well I guess the debate will rage on..
@murronius "I guess until someone... does those studies and they are truly honest" Oh please, unless their results confirmed your preconceived beliefs about vaccines, anti-vaxers like you would just say that they were corrupt, lying, wrong, etc. There is a reason why as the quality of the study goes up, the measurement of any link goes down.
@ArcanaKnight There is a reason why as the quality of the study goes up, the measurement of any link goes down. All just propaganda from the pro-Vaccine lobbyists ... No facts just spins... It goes both ways... And like I said the argument is over... It is a matter of choice... I do not trust the people who you are representing... period.. they have shown the corruption they are capable of therefore they are responsible for people not believing them or taking their medicine even if it works
@ArcanaKnight If you want the truth... The truth is like this... Arcana... If the pro-vaccine lobby is so honest then they should not be for profit... Nor should any medicine... You also claim that anecdotal evidence is not evidence yet the FDA banned herbal Ehpedra on all anecdotal evidence... Due to the same people who you support lobbying against it... I know for a fact the pharmas are corrupt through and through... FACT.. read the book the medical mafia... be enlightened. watch sicko.. learn
@murronius " If the pro-vaccine lobby is so honest then they should not be for profit" By that logic, the same could be said of ANY industry. Besides, you need to be more realistic; pretty much the only way your fantasy would ever become reality is if money itself was abolished.
"You cannot trust any government or any private pharmas" As I've said repeatedly, blind mistrust like that is just as bad as blind trust.
@ArcanaKnight The world is completely fucked right now because of everything for profit.. It teaches greed.. You cannot trust any government or any private pharmas.. Hell you can barely trust your neighbour... Yet your ok with them injecting you with some shit you have no idea what is really in it... Your pretty sure their is no conspiracy... But you can't be 100% sure... so in fact your gambling. Forced vaccination equals Tyranny... If I have a choice I would rather die than live under tyranny.
@ArcanaKnight The rest of the argument is just a waste of time... Since really you cannot prove shit nor can I... Since we both seem to think each others sources are full of shit... Yours due to ridiculous profits mine for well I guess you figure some sort of insanity.. lol Ok I know where my money is... if it was god's truth... Common sense would dictate that the one who has the most to lose would be the least honest... That would be the pharmas. You see anyone can argue black is white.
@ArcanaKnight Polios complications were known to be greatly exaggerated ... Remember there arcana I know someone who had it... and guess what they were vaccinated... So really I think your just a person who has been indoctrinated... You want so badly to believe that you can trust your government and the pharmas and the health organizations... You can't handle your bubble being burst... You see I do not think all vaccines are evil... I am just extremely aware... You are not... end of argument
@murronius "Remember there arcana I know someone who had it" You knowing someone who had polio and didn't suffer any lasting complications doesn't mean that such complications were exaggerated or nonexistent, anymore than I not knowing anyone who has died from the flu would mean that nobody dies from it.
"You see I do not think all vaccines are evil" You keep claiming that, so exactly which vaccines do you not think are "evil"?
@ArcanaKnight "You see I do not think all vaccines are evil" You keep claiming that, so exactly which vaccines do you not think are "evil"? Thats a good question ... finally... the MMR vaccine fell into disrepute... regardless of your or my studies... (or sides we take)... There is over whelming anecdotal evidence that the vaccine is responsible... It simple does more harm than good... Not too mention that the measles one has been shown to not work in more than one instance..
@murronius "There is over whelming anecdotal evidence that the vaccine is responsible" Considering that millions choosing not to get the MMR shot had no effect on the autism rate, I'd say that's BS.
"the measles one has been shown to not work" Only anti-vaxers claim that vaccines are supposed to be 100% effective all the time. The MMR shot has about a 99% effectiveness rate.
@ArcanaKnight "knowing someone who had polio and didn't suffer any lasting complications doesn't mean that such complications were exaggerated or nonexistent, " Actually they did have lasting complications... Just that they are very minor compared to the fear mongering iron lung videos reminiscent of the reefer madness videos that the government put out in the 30's 40's and 50's Not too mention the failure of the vaccine in a ridiculous amount of people... or the vaccine crippling many people...
@murronius "or the whooping cough vaccine.. another piece of garbage"
Really ?? Whooping cough was unknown in my country for 3 generations. Now, some nutcase parents are deciding they dont want there little Johhny given those nasty drugs,, and suddenly whooping cough is turning up in schools all over the place.
@ArcanaKnight Do you want me to list the actual "factual vaccine atrocities such as the 1970's flu vaccine, Or the reason they stopped giving the small pox vaccine and anyone who was connected with the people who made the small pox vaccine were not vaccinated with it since it was known to be dangerous) the statistics you recite about autism not dropping in spite of the vaccine rates dropping is unreliable since the people who put out those stats have financial investment its conflict of interest
@murronius "Statistics mean nothing" That's just ad-hoc hand-waving to try denying disconfirming evidence. You're also ignoring the fact that the statistics you yourself have cited about autism are collected by the very same people you claim are unreliably corrupt; you can't claim that the statistics are suddenly unreliable just because they contradict your beliefs about vaccines.
@ArcanaKnight The ad-hoc hand-waving you refer to is basically the same as your doing since neither of us can prove jack-shit on this stupid forum... its far too limiting here.. So arguing about this is a waste of my time and your time... In fact it has turned into a pissing contest...Of which I will not be convinced regardless.. Nor will you apparently... So to avoid insanity... Let's just say we agree to disagree. Vaccines are good for you... For me I will decide...
@murronius "The ad-hoc hand-waving you refer to is basically the same as your doing" No, unlike you, I'm actually providing verifiable facts to support my claims. I could even provide you with the links if you would prefer.
"Of which I will not be convinced regardless" That's abundantly clear, but then my intent isn't to convince people like you who will continue to spout these claims regardless of what the evidence says.
@ArcanaKnight But really Arcana... what are you so worried about anyways? Do you really think a few poor mothers and a couple stray doctors can stop the mainstream media? The vaccination industry is expected to grow dramatically over the next few years.. from 24 billion in 2009 to 52 billion in 2016... So I am not sure what you are worried about... It's actually funny that your so concerned about vaccines.. it shows that the indoctrination works... people are brainwashed... interesting to watch
@murronius "Do you really think a few poor mothers and a couple stray doctors can stop the mainstream media?" Why would they have to stop the mainstream media? The media is notoriously bad at reporting science stories.
"So I am not sure what you are worried about" How about what has already happened in places like the UK, or in the US now and in the past: anti-vaxers spreading fear about vaccines, scaring people into not vaccinating and allowing the diseases to run rampant.
@ArcanaKnight “The global vaccines industry was valued at $24 billion in 2009 and is expected to reach $52 billion in 2016 at a Compounded Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 11.5%. The vaccines market, which was once considered a low-profit segment of the top players’ portfolios, showed a turnaround after the resounding success of Prevnar, the first blockbuster vaccine.
@ArcanaKnight This however, also shows that in fact it is just another "darling" industry...a big money maker... Which of course leads to all kinds of dishonesty and corruption... Which just means they can afford to make everyone believe that they are the only ones who know the truth... just like you believe... that no one else's studies are valid.. It's sad actually... Just like the financial scandal of 2007... same shit different pile... lies and deceit for profit..
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"Fear mongering and put downs are not the way to gain respect" You've just described the majority of your posts on this subject so far.
"This discussion is over" I've not been posting with any real belief that I could convince you of anything, since you've made it abundantly clear that no amount of evidence could ever convince you that you were wrong. I've been posting so that anyone reading could know the actual facts about vaccines.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
"over 70% if canadians think 911 was an inside job" A lot of people believe the moon landings were faked too, but that doesn't mean that they're right. Just because a belief is popular, doesn't automatically mean that its true.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
"(re: providing links) I can do the same" And yet you haven't. Also, one big difference is that the links I provide don't stop at finding possible conflicts of interest, but actually go through and examine the quality of the study itself.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight That link you provided is just another opinion... propaganda... Besides... Like I said... I do not care ... It truly is a matter of trust... which the vaccine providers have really lost. Respect is earned. I lost respect for the government. Sorry but this is where I get spiritual... Since the argument is NIL
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight The complexity of this discussion cannot be properly addressed in this forum period... Fear mongering and put downs are not the way to gain respect... This is degenerate and is why the government lost respect in the first place... Anyone who engages in this type of behaviour should not be trusted.. However like I said... This discussion is over...
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight There really is no point in fighting over all this anyways... I have no agenda.. although I feel like you and Poodoo have one... even if you don't you come off that way... I think the point is vaccines are not going away... So why get so uptight about it? If you really want to help the world... Trying bettering yourself rather than trying to convince some conspiracy nut like myself that vaccines really are gods gift.
murronius 1 month ago
"Rates of autism spectrum disorder among children born in the 1990s surged dramatically, from about 1 in 5,000 to 1 in 150 children." This surge can be attributed mostly, if not completely, to a broadening of the definition and increased surveillance (even teachers are trained to spot the signs these days).
SafeMinds is an anti-vax misinformation organization, and it trots out people like Healy the same way creationists trot out "scientists" who agree with them.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.
murronius 1 month ago
- In Oman between 1988 and 1989, a polio outbreak occurred amongst thousands of fully vaccinated children. The region with the highest attack rate had the highest vaccine coverage. The region with the lowest attack rate had the lowest vaccine coverage. (The Lancet, 21/9/91)
murronius 1 month ago
-The February 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of obstetricians and 66% of pediatricians refused to take the rubella vaccine.
murronius 1 month ago
- In 1979, Sweden abandoned the whooping cough vaccine due to its ineffectiveness. Out of 5,140 cases in 1978, it was found that 84% had been vaccinated three times! (BMJ 283:696-697, 1981)
murronius 1 month ago
In 1978, a survey of 30 States in the US revealed that more than half of the children who contracted measles had been adequately vaccinated. (The People's Doctor, Dr R Mendelsohn)
murronius 1 month ago
- In 1977, Dr Jonas Salk who developed the first polio vaccine, testified along with other scientists, that mass inoculation against polio was the cause of most polio cases throughout the USA since 1961. (Science 4/4/77 "Abstracts" )
murronius 1 month ago
In the 1970's a tuberculosis vaccine trial in India involving 260,000 people revealed that more cases of TB occurred in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. (The Lancet 12/1/80 p73)
murronius 1 month ago
In the UK between 1970 and 1990, over 200,000 cases of whooping cough occurred in fully vaccinated children. (Community Disease Surveillance Centre, UK)
murronius 1 month ago
In 1967, Ghana was declared measles free by the World Health Organisation after 96% of its population was vaccinated. In 1972, Ghana experienced one of its worst measles outbreaks with its highest ever mortality rate. (Dr H Albonico, MMR Vaccine Campaign in Switzerland, March 1990)
murronius 1 month ago
- In Germany, compulsory mass vaccination against diphtheria commenced in 1940 and by 1945 diphtheria cases were up from 40,000 to 250,000.In the USA in 1960, two virologists discovered that both polio vaccines were contaminated with the SV 40 virus which causes cancer in animals as well as changes in human cell tissue cultures. Millions of children had been injected with these vaccines. (Med Jnl of Australia 17/3/1973 p555)
murronius 1 month ago
- In 1871-2, England, with 98% of the population aged between 2 and 50 vaccinated against smallpox, it experienced its worst ever smallpox outbreak with 45,000 deaths. During the same period in Germany, with a vaccination rate of 96%, there were over 125,000 deaths from smallpox. (The Hadwen Documents)
murronius 1 month ago
"But we can say that it demonstrates how the CDC evaded their responsibility to investigate vaccine safety questions. Vaccine safety oversight should be removed from the CDC and given to an independent agency."
murronius 1 month ago
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The government recently conceded a federal vaccine court case which agreed that a child regressed into autism as a result of 9 vaccines given on one day.
"The full implications of this primate study await publication of the research in a scientific journal," noted Theresa Wrangham, president of SafeMinds.
murronius 1 month ago
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murronius 1 month ago
"SafeMinds calls for large scale, unbiased studies that look at medical conditions associated with autism and the effects of vaccines given as a regimen."
The group's request for research echoes that of Dr. Bernadine Healy, Former NIH Director, in a CBS interview earlier this week. She asserted that public health officials have been too quick to dismiss an autism-vaccine connection when the research has been insufficient.
murronius 1 month ago
The vaccines given were those recommended for U.S. infants in the 1990s, including several with the mercury preservative thimerosal and the Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine. Rates of autism spectrum disorder among children born in the 1990s surged dramatically, from about 1 in 5,000 to 1 in 150 children."This research underscores the critical need for more investigation into immunizations, mercury, and the alterations seen in autistic children," stated Lyn Redwood, director of SafeMinds.
murronius 1 month ago
Safety studies of medicines are typically conducted in monkeys prior to use in humans, yet such basic research on the current childhood vaccination regimen has never before been done.The abstracts presented at IMFAR, the world's top autism science conference, describe biological changes and altered behavior in vaccinated macaques that are similar to those observed in children with autism. Unvaccinated animals showed no such adverse outcomes.
murronius 1 month ago
Infant Vaccines Produce Autism Symptoms In New Primate Study By University Of Pittsburgh Scientists
Findings released Friday showed that infant monkeys given vaccines officially recommended by the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) exhibited autism-like symptoms. Lead investigator Laura Hewitson of the University of Pittsburgh and colleagues presented study results at the International Meeting for Autism Research (IMFAR) in London.
murronius 1 month ago
"Infant Vaccines Produce Autism Symptoms In New Primate Study By University Of Pittsburgh Scientists"
That "research" is crap science through and through. It suffers from so many methodological flaws that I still marvel that it managed to get through any sort of peer review, much less IACUC review, and its lead investigator has a massive conflict of interest. tinyurlDOTcom/6tem7mg
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight oh yeah you were reading about that reporter who is a criminal who likes to terrorize mothers who have autistic children whom falsely reported Wakefields primate study was a fraud? Yeah I know all about that... Wakefield only had the best people in the field do independent analysis... Yeah but somehow a reporter knows more... Yeah good luck with that arcane...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "whom falsely reported Wakefields primate study was a fraud" I believe you're mixing up your facts. The study which Deer called a fraud was Wakefield's original MMR study, not his later primate study (which in fact uses the same exact data as the study you posted earlier). Here's a review of his faulty primate study: tinyurlDOTcom/6ugqqeu There is also nothing "independent" about Walker-Smith and Dhillon's analysis.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight In the end I don not really give a rats ass about wakefield or whomever doing their stupid studies anyways... Studies are all flawed to one degree or another period... since to begin with monkeys are not humans... The bottom line is vaccines have in past been show to be ineffective in many cases and actually causing harm in many cases... The criticism is of the fear mongering pharmas that are profit not health driven... With even the CDC virtually admitting the link
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight So Aracana just keep getting your vaccines and I will not get mine... its not a big deal... Maybe you will live longer and healthier than me... maybe not... and to be honest I do not really care... I will let God decide who is the better person... That is not me to decide... This world matters not... It will pass as does day into night passes... Eventually all will be revealed... you will die regardless if you get vaccines or not as will I.. you might want to worry where your going
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius " I will let God decide who is the better person... "
ah, so not only are you a consiracy nut,, your a god bothering consiracy nut.. That explains everything
podoau 1 month ago
@podoau Poodoo... Actually it doesn't matter what you say... you will be judged and when you die... you will be reborn... into a suitable world to learn your lessons... Birth rebirth and Karma... God is just a word used to describe the force that put you here... and although you can explain scientifically how it happens you cannot explain your conscience... Since that is the beginning of understanding that science cannot ever explain everything... Conspiracies are a fact. Proven fact of history
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau So Therefore POODOO your actually the nut... Because you think that you and your kind will get away with all the evil that you have supported... But of course you won't... You will suffer equal to all the suffering you caused... and so will I... Even science can explain this through one action always causes another action of equal force... Calling someone a conspiracy nut doesn't make it true... It just shows your low brow lack of actual intelligence.. In fact I sumise your IQ at 92 tops
murronius 1 month ago
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@murronius "Because you think that you and your kind will get away with all the evil that you have supported"
what evil ??? ha ha
"I sumise your IQ at 92 tops""
Like you would know, and as if I care
"
podoau 1 month ago
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murronius 1 month ago
@podoau You see I have something you will never have POODOO... I have faith... yes thats right... something that an atheist can never have since they do not believe in Karma or reincarnation... They just believe this is all a chemical reaction... Which just means I know where I am heading... I feel sorry that you do not know the truth about life... That this world doesn't matter... what matters is you Karma and thats all that matters... You will die and be reborn accordingly believe it or not..
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "... I have faith... "
Faith is the excuse people use when they beleive something but have no evidence.
"They just believe this is all a chemical reaction"
It is
"Which just means I know where I am heading"
No, it means you want to beleive you do.
"You will die and be reborn accordingly believe it or not.."
You can prove this ??
podoau 1 month ago
@podoau Science requires evidence... Science is fine... However there are things you cannot explain... like your conscience for instance... your spirit... Your awareness... Birth death rebirth Karma... You believe in science as the saviour... I say science in and of itself will save no one... Since living can be worse than dying... in as far as vaccines go the pharmas and government have done a terrible PR job... no one trusts them anymore.. over 70% if canadians think 911 was an inside job...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius " However there are things you cannot explain... like your conscience for instance... "
Correct, so the answer is.. currently unkown.. Not some crazy idea that does nothing but make you feel like you have answered the question
"You believe in science as the saviour"
Not at all. Science is simply explaining the world based on evidence
"over 70% if canadians think 911 was an inside job"
Wow,, that says more about Canadians than you realise
podoau 1 month ago
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@podoau Yeah it says Canadians have brains... I do not need to prove anything to you or Arcana... Scientific proof is not required for something that you will never explain... You will never explain conscience scientifically... If you think alqueda did 911 you there are two things definite... One is you cannot think for yourself... the other is you really do either have extremely low intelligence or your extremely unaware... It is impossible for the buildings to have fallen from the jets...
murronius 1 month ago
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@podoau Again just another example of gullibility... 911 being an inside job is not debatable... It's is actually a scientifically proven fact that the planes could not cause the damage claimed by the official story... Don't even bother replying if your going to argue about this...Oh and if you think the government isn't capable... look up operation north woods.. just another black ops similar to 911 that the government admitted to but simply did not follow through on. Again lies and deceit ..
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau Therefore it is in fact you who may be wrong... You may have to accept that you are wrong... But like I said... I do not really care... vaccines really to me are besides the point. They are about money and control. Period. Not health and welfare like claimed. Next you will be saying that MK ultra never existed. And yes I know that when you die you will simply be reborn again. However this does not mean I have physiological evidence to show you... it just means I saw it.. you didn't..
murronius 1 month ago
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@murronius "They are about money and control. Period. Not health and welfare like claimed"
wow.. So eradicating smallpox was all about money and control ?? You cant be serious.
SUre there has been some corruption, sure there has been mistakes, but that is always the case. You need to look at the bigger picture.
podoau 1 month ago
@murronius " And yes I know that when you die you will simply be reborn again. However this does not mean I have physiological evidence to show you... it just means I saw it.. "
no, you think you saw it,, and you just want to beleive it.
podoau 1 month ago
@podoau "no, you think you saw it,, and you just want to beleive it." You think you just wrote this last statement but really you just want to believe it... Everything is a thought... even your eyesight... All senses translate into thought... You know nothing about reincarnation because you falsely believe that science has to prove something before it can be true.You are the one who wants to believe... I just know what has been made apparent.
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau I am not biased either way.. you are.. your scared of what reincarnation means to you personally... Fear of something does not make it untrue... In fact your argumentativeness just shows your lack of understanding... Read Dale Carnegie... If you want to influence people start agreeing with them... Reincarnation was not something I was taught... I studied it after being shown that it is the truth... and only after.. It doesn't matter to me if you believe it or not. You have your own path
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau All these criminals that run the world will all have to suffer their own Karma when they die... Even in this life many of them suffer... Yes they are rich and powerful here but ultimately they have to face their own Karma... You nor I cannot change that with all the arguing and insulting in the world.. I will look out for my own karma and I suggest you do the same.. You cannot and will not change the world.. nor does it matter if you could.. SInce that is not your purpose here.. nor mine
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau Life is eternal... You can deny it but you know I am right regardless of the angry spiteful words that come out of your mouth... You will ascend or descend in your lives hereafter according to your Karma... That is how simple life really is... There is nothing more too it. It is likely that the more benevolent of us will be the ones ascending... and the more aggressive war mongering descending... Faith is the belief that good will triumph over evil no matter how grim things look today...
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau Fortunately for you it does not matter if you believe in it or not... You do not have to believe in the law of Karma and reincarnation for it to be a fact... Which simply translated means that if you live a good life whatever that may be... you will move on to a better life when you die... even if you do not believe in it... Or you may not move upwards you may be stuck here to learn a lesson that may take eternity to learn ... like me.. EGO is the first enemy that we all must defeat
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau In fact look at this argument that we have raged over on here... Obviously there is nothing to gain other than to satisfy our fragile egos... This is not about vaccines... This is just about a pissing contest... which is all the ego is ever about... It is a low vibration...
murronius 1 month ago
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@podoau eventually your soul will come to realize this truth... For me it was living this same life over thousands of times maybe millions.. Like in the movie Groundhog day... For you maybe it will never happen.Maybe your better off than me knowing this truth. But the fact is I have seen it and you have not... There is no way to prove it and probably never will be. however that does not mean it is not true. Nor does it matter..Since the truth is the truth and this world is what does not matter.
murronius 1 month ago
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@podoau From what I can understand about this spirituality is that everyone caught up in this world is basically doomed... Be in the world not of the world... That is why all the vaccines do not matter if this world is basically hell... Why would you want to live longer? Makes no sense. This is also along the lines of "it's no better to be safe than sorry" I am 46 and I can honestly say this particular world isn't so great. So why would I want to extend it?
murronius 1 month ago
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@podoau No not everything is a conspiracy... But why would you even venture to trust a government that is fully capable of conspiracy and has been exposed for it in the past ... Thats like trusting a convicted felon... Makes no logical sense... they have shown their true colours... The point is the government who pushes vaccines is completely responsible for people not trusting them... Only a stupid person would trust them... On any level whatsoever.
murronius 1 month ago
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@podoau their leadership is crap... Leadership is about do as I do... Well if everyone does what the government does we will basically be exactly where we are today... constant war and hate.. Yep thats great leadership isn't it... War hate anger and aggression and bullyism... Thats the leadership we have... You have to be sedated to not realize this... You basically live in the "HELL SYSTEM" not the "HEALTH SYSTEM"...
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau Which brings us back to the fact that you think I am a conspiracy religious nut... When in fact I am rightfully questioning the authorities... You believe they are not capable of conspiracy yet history shows they are. Have you ever heard of buyer beware? It's actually an intelligent concept. You would have me think it isn't. Since there really is no answer..
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "I am rightfully questioning the authorities"
Nothing wrong with that,, but there comes a point when you realise you might ne wrong.
" You believe they are not capable of conspiracy yet history shows they are"
Possibly, but that doesnt mean everything is a conspiracy
" Have you ever heard of buyer beware?"
Yes I have. Have you ever heard of "nothing is 100% quarenteed
podoau 1 month ago
@podoau You see this is all just turmoil... You believe obviously that people should be vaccinated by force.. this is where the world fails.. However it is my Karma that I am here in this world with all its wonders and all its evils. We will suffer or be rewarded according to our Karma.. You may even be rewarded for corruption in this world... But when you die you will likely have to be on the receiving end of someone with corrupt power over you if you were abusive in your past life.. balance
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius " You believe obviously that people should be vaccinated by force""
I beleive that people should be educated enough to understand whats a benifit to everyone, including themselves.
podoau 1 month ago
@podoau Yes I know for a fact that you will be reborn... I cannot however say where you will go when you die... who, what, where or when... I can say however that faith is all you have when you die... faith in Nature... the Nature that put you here in the first place.. I remember all the good and bad things I have done in my past... I know why I am where I am.. You haven't had that sight yet... eventually you will ... maybe not this life but eventually... thats why vaccines do not matter anyways
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "Yes I know for a fact that you will be reborn"
Provide testable evidence to support this claim
"I remember all the good and bad things I have done in my past... I know why I am where I am.. You haven't had that sight yet."
How do you know ??
podoau 1 month ago
@podoau Also your too unintelligent to realize that no matter what all the anti-vaccine people say. vaccines are not going to stop... Nor will all the corruption stop... it isn't meant to. Vaccines will double in sales by 2016 from about 25 billion to over 50 billion... So all your anger and whatnot towards people who believe in freedom is really ignorant. You nor I can change the world.. ultimately what is meant to be will be... nor does any of it matter. You are not meant to change this world.
murronius 1 month ago
@podoau Yes usually people who believe in God or have a belief of some sort of power beyond their understanding are people with higher intellect... It is the ignorant heathens no matter how scientifically enlightened who truly are the unintelligent...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "usually people who believe in God or have a belief of some sort of power beyond their understanding are people with higher intellect"
Wrong.. Studies show that atheists are more intelligent that religious people. But on a larger scale, discussing correlations between IQ and religiosity without a grasp of the relevant underlying factors is something of a parlor game
podoau 1 month ago
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@murronius " It is the ignorant heathens no matter how scientifically enlightened who truly are the unintelligent... ""
Oh right, so you can be sceintifically enlightened, but still be truelly unintelligent.. oh, and be a heathen.
Your not an idiot,, your a buffoon.
podoau 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Since neither of us is qualified to really argue this anyways nor can we prove shit on this forum. Tell me. what would you do if you were wrong? Is it still ok to push vaccines for profit? Another question. Do you really believe that the people that sell vaccines do not care more about the bottom line than if they hurt people or protect them? Just asking so I can get my head around your perspective. Personally I think vaccines are the biggest junk science ever.
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "I think vaccines are the biggest junk science ever. " Why exactly do you think that? Is that belief based on anything other than anti-corporate sentiment and anecdotal evidence?
"the people that sell vaccines do not care more about the bottom line..." Of course they care about the bottom line (as do all companies), but that's why its in their best interest to release as safe a product as possible, because to do otherwise would end up hurting their bottom line.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight but that's why its in their best interest to release as safe a product as possible, because to do otherwise would end up hurting their bottom line. Ummmm nope... They are involved with the same people who own and control most of the media... so they can lie their faces off... They have also been given almost complete immunity from prosecution under almost any circumstance... which is about the only thing that is immune from their vaccines... their bank accounts...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius " Personally I think vaccines are the biggest junk science ever. "
Lets hear you say that when your on your deathbed from some disease that is easily preventable by vaccination.
podoau 1 month ago
@podoau since I know people who have gotten the illness that were vaccinated It wouldn't matter to me... Not too mention dying is just part of life and does not concern me
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight "Infant Vaccines Produce Autism Symptoms In New Primate Study By University Of Pittsburgh Scientists" Right but it is still just your bias and opinion that it is junk science... but anything the pharmas trot out is above reproach right?
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "its still your bias and opinion that it is junk science" Not at all; the link I provided even went through and explained exactly why that study was junk, which you would know if you had bothered to look at it. I've also not said that "anything the pharmas trot out is above reproach", that's just another of your strawmen. Also, don't talk to me of hypocrisy while you ignore the fact your favored studies wouldn't pass your own standards regarding conflicts of interest.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight I tried your link it didn't work and that is the exact problem with this forum... I have read the people who tried to discredit certain studies... I have also read how the pharmas studies were also discredited or more disturbing... non-existent...
murronius 1 month ago
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@murronius "I tried your link it didn't work and that is the exact problem with this forum" You just have to replace the DOT with a period, and it will work.
"They are involved with the same people who own and control most of the media" And there we go with the conspiracy mongering again.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Yeah I get it... I really do ... Yes indeed... 200 million odd years of evolution and all of a sudden we need to poke ourselves with toxins in the hopes of protecting ourselves from them; and anyone who says otherwise is a bat shit, paranoid, tinfoil, dog abusing, baby hater and will be reviled by everyone... does that about sum it up arcana?
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "all of a sudden we need to poke ourselves with toxins in the hopes of protecting ourselves from them" Why do you think vaccines for these diseases were developed in the first place? Its because these diseases ravaged populations, killing some and crippling many more. tinyurlDOTcom/6wnqjmk
"and anyone who says otherwise is a bat shit,..." No, that little strawman of yours isn't correct.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight The fact that you have to use stock terms like Ad hoc, or straw man... shows your probably a shill working for the pharmas... but your wasting your time here anyways... Since freedom is the issue... And we all know that vaccination is exactly the opposite of freedom... at least forced vaccination... Don't worry there is nice warm place in Hell waiting for you... Albeit I will not decide that... However just like abortion vaccines are a perversion...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "The fact that you have to use stock terms like Ad hoc, or straw man shows your probably a shill working for the pharmas" No, it just shows I'm familiar with terms relating with logical fallacies, and that you keep using them. I was wondering how long it would take for you to make this baseless accusation; when you can't argue the facts, resort to personal attacks, huh?
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight First off you started the personal attacks... I am not going to look back but it said something to the affect of ... The world would be a better place without my gene pool.. Yeah I guess that isn't offensive is it... As for atheists being smarter PFFT... Yes I have memories of having lived many lives... Sorry that you are not so blessed... If you really were as smart as you think you are you would know that there are some things science will never explain.. I am doubting your there
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "it said something to the affect of ... The world would be a better place without my gene pool" I never said anything even close to that effect. You must be thinking of someone else, probably podoau since he (or she) was also talking about atheists, faith, etc as well.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@murronius "200 million odd years of evolution and all of a sudden we need to poke ourselves with toxins in the hopes of protecting ourselves from them"
ha ha.. so wrong.. And how many millions of people died because of diseases that no long do because we dicovered vaccines ??
Thousands of people died slow agonising deaths from smallpox. Its now erradicated thanks to vaccines.
podoau 1 month ago
@podoau Small pox was already on the decline when they came out with the vaccine ... If you read all my posts you would also know that in the late 1800's small pox vaccines was a complete failure...
murronius 1 month ago
Yeah it look like they don't care a less about profit... nope not at all... not one tiny bit...
murronius 1 month ago
The ability of vaccines to generate high revenue and profits despite being priced at a premium has proven attractive to both existing players in the market and to big pharmaceutical companies who have been watching the development of the market with interest.
murronius 1 month ago
“The global vaccines industry was valued at $24 billion in 2009 and is expected to reach $52 billion in 2016 at a Compounded Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 11.5%. The vaccines market, which was once considered a low-profit segment of the top players’ portfolios, showed a turnaround after the resounding success of Prevnar, the first blockbuster vaccine.
murronius 1 month ago
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The new Vaccine Headiner...... BETTER TO BE ALIVE AND RETARDED THAN DEAD AND UNVACCINCATED! MAKE THE RETARDED CHOICE GET VACCINATED TODAY!
murronius 1 month ago
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murronius 1 month ago
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murronius 1 month ago
youtube.com/watch?v=Dh-nkD5LSIg this link is to a video on cnn that shows the pharma has admitted the link to autism... therefore please shut up everyone who says it isn't proven... it is proven... the only question is... are they still worth the risk..other than that just don't open your stupid mouths please... thanks! you have to add the world wide web prefix onto that link
murronius 2 months ago
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murronius 2 months ago
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murronius 2 months ago
Vaccines are about behaviour modification and that is why some kids end up autistic... They are intentionally trying to cause a specific form of brain damage... Which would be more like very mild autism... The idea is to lower resistance to control... There is really little doubt about this... The government are nothing but a criminally controlled cabal... face it... At the least they through a deserved poor reputation are at fault for non compliance and at worst outright corrupt causing harm...
murronius 2 months ago
Thimerosal has been removed from MOST, NOT ALL childhood vaccines. PLUS, we have known about multiple vaccine admin.problems for years. Wakefield situation isn't over yet; just verifies the medical politics when people get in the way of big money concerns & depopulationists. Vaccines have been linked to violence & criminality. They stimulate the wrong immunoglobulins, introduce foreign genetic material, & can contain aluminum, allergens, formaldehyde, & substances known to induce infertility..
GetItRight4aChange 4 months ago
One problem with Deth's hypothesis is that it doesn't fit with the current evidence. Not only have studies repeatedly shown no link between thimerosal (his claimed cause) and autism. Another problem is that thimerosal has been phased out of the childhood vaccines, yet autism rates have been unaffected.
ArcanaKnight 9 months ago
@ArcanaKnight Actually, there is evidence provided by both parents of young children and adults who have in some form suffered from vaccine injuries. There was a recent case of a woman named Stephanie Arnold, who received the Menomune vaccine ( or known as Meningococcal Polysaccharide) while attending college at the age of 21. This is her testimony - watch?v=0FskFGxknEo
EmilyGreene1984 8 months ago
@EmilyGreene1984 That's called anecdotal evidence, and its considered unreliable for a reason. Examination of Wakefield's study shows a perfect example of this: parents claimed that the symptoms showed up only after the children were vaccinated, but their medical records show that the majority of the children were showing early symptoms well before they received the shots. I'm skeptical of Arnold's diagnosis because she claims to have been cured by detox (which is ineffective on autism).
ArcanaKnight 8 months ago
@ArcanaKnight Courts don't award $1.5 M + $.5 M per year & seal the records when a case is based only on anecdotal evidence. In addition to attenuated live viruses & bacteria, vaccines routinely contain ethylene glycol, phenol, benzethonium chloride, formaldehyde, aluminum, & polysorbate 80 (infertility). Merck's MMR is grown on aborted fetal tissues.
GetItRight4aChange 4 months ago
@GetItRight4aChange "when a case is based only on anecdotal evidence" Actually, in a way they do. The criteria for proving something in a court case are much different than they are for proving something in science.
If vaccines were really responsible for autism, even partially, we would expect to see drops in autism rates when vaccination rates drop, yet they continue to remain steady regardless of vaccination rate, thimerosal content, etc. Vaccines just don't cause autism.
ArcanaKnight 4 months ago
CONT Listing ingredients like that is baseless fear-mongering which completely ignores the fact that toxicity is in the dose, and there just isn't enough of any of those ingredients to be harmful. For example, even small children have several times more formaldehyde in their bloodstream naturally (its a byproduct of metabolism) than is present in the vaccines.
Also, none of that changes the fact that Wakefield's data doesn't match the children's records.
ArcanaKnight 4 months ago
@ArcanaKnight Duh get a grip... The link is 100% proven... Get your head out of your butt... Seriously buddy... Ever heard of the hypocratic oath? Even if vaccines didn't ... vaccines fail the hypocratic oath... period... and like are you so naive to believe that the people who sell the vaccines and lobby the government to push them could not just be out strictly for financial gain? You must be fully up to date on your vaccines if you believe that... vaccines and behaviour modification lol
murronius 2 months ago
@murronius "The link is 100% proven" No its not. In fact, just the opposite is true, and this is also shown in the real-world statistics; autism rates have been completely unaffected by changes in thimerosal content and vaccination rates. The rest of your posts are little more than conspiracy mongering nonsense.
ArcanaKnight 2 months ago
@ArcanaKnight Pffft.... Get a grip... You can't even accept the truth when your faced with the facts... I have read all those studies your talking about... they have all been blatantly disproven... On the payroll of the very people who make the vaccines...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "I have read all those studies your talking about... they have all been blatantly disproven" No they haven't, but even if you choose to ignore them, the real-world statistics still don't support you. Autism rates have remained completely unaffected despite changes in vaccination rate, thimerosal content, etc (which shouldn't be true if they were even a partial cause of it).
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
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murronius 1 month ago
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@ArcanaKnight Statistically the rate of autism before they started using the tri-vaccine was about 1 in 5000... after the tri-vaccine it is now about 1 in 180... As far as them vaccinating less... Well I have not heard or read that anywhere..most people are getting more vaccines than ever before... every time you turn around they are pushing a new flu vaccine... Follow the money... Send me the link that shows the stats that the rate of vaccination is decreasing at this alarming level...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius I'm actually referring specifically to drops in vaccination rates, usually due to anti-vax fearmongering. This can be seen most clearly in places like the UK or Japan; vaccination rates fell, yet autism rates remained completely unaffected. The rise in autism rates can be attributed mostly (if not completely) to increased surveillance (eg. even teachers are now trained to spot the signs) and a broadening of the definition.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight I would have to research this to see if it is true... It sounds a little unlikely that you could tell anything from a few people abstaining from Vaccines... Also you denied that the pharmas admitted a link... Did you even look at the video I posted below? I clearly shows the pharmas admitting that 1 in 50 children are at risk of vaccine induced autism like symptoms... due to what they called a rare genetic disorder... However Autism like symptoms is autism and 1 in 50 is not rare
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "It sounds a little unlikely that you could tell anything from a few people abstaining from Vaccines" I'm not talking about just a few people though, the vaccination rate in the UK dropped about 15% following Wakefield's awful study, yet there hasn't even been a blip in the autism rate corresponding with this drop (which there should have been if they were linked).
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Hmm I saw the same video you did and I hear the head of the CDC admitting that the vaccine does cause autism like symptoms in people with this genetic disorder... Not sure how you figure she did not say that when it is clear that is exactly what she said... If anyone is twisting words it is Berdinger or whatever her name is... The guy that commented on the video is exactly correct... The vaccine rate dropping 15% means nothing... Those are arbitrary figures...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius @murronius "Those are arbitrary figures" Absolute BS; you just don't want to admit that the autism rate being completely unaffected by millions of people choosing not to be vaccinated is a pretty clear sign that vaccines aren't a cause of autism, probably because your conspiracy mongering can't explain it away.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight It really sounds like your just refusing to accept the reality that vaccines can and do cause harm in some cases... And that the pharmas are simply out to make money and that they do not really care about public safety as much as they care about making more money... These are really indisputable facts... Look into the Gulf war syndrome... things will become more clear... Basically they are liars and corrupted... No one is disputing some vaccination... over vaccination is the issue
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius @murronius "...that vaccines can and do cause harm in some cases" I'm not disputing that vaccines can have side-effects, though they're hundreds and even thousands of times less likely to occur than the complications caused by the diseases they protect against. What I am disputing is the belief that one of those side effects is autism; multiple studies, as well as real-world statistics have repeatedly shown that there is no link.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
CONT "No one is disputing some vaccination" Actually, there are people who dispute that.
"It isn't a conspiracy theory" Conspiracy Theory: A belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event. Sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy theory to me. There are plenty of valid reasons to be anti-corporate or anti-government, but vaccines just aren't one.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Right but really you are the one that cannot accept that even the CDC says that Vaccines cause problems in about 1 in 50 children amounting to at the very least autism like symptoms... Conspiracy mongering LMAO ROTFL... Ok Arcana... give me one good reason that a pharma should do anything for the betterment of mankind rather than simply make themselves rich? Answer that simple question and I will listen to your side... Otherwise its buyer beware... and I ain't buying..
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "even the CDC says that Vaccines cause problems in about 1 in 50 children" Again not true. The 1 in 50 number was the upper end of a purely SPECULATIVE estimate of people who might have the same mitochondrial disorder as Poling, not those that have developed similar "autism like symptoms".
Your claims are consistently wrong or exaggerated; you should find new sources because the ones you're working from now don't seem reliable.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Not conspiracy just simple plain old... good old... Crooked companies bullshitting the public... Tell me Aracana... what makes a vaccines company so honest? The problem with people like you is that you just blindly trust the pharmas and the corrupted government... Thats just plain gullibility... If you think its a conspiracy then I guess you must think the tuskegee syphillis study wasn't real even though Clinton officially apologized only of course after being caught... naive man
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "just blindly trust the pharmas and the corrupted government" Did you miss the part where I said that there are good reasons for being anti-corporate or anti-government? How exactly does that sound like blind trust? What I trust is the evidence, and the evidence continually shows that vaccines work and that they don't cause autism.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight lolololol OMG here you are calling me a conspiracy theorist fear mongered... but your using the pharmas fear mongering to push vaccines... lol Oh and ( I said that there are good reasons for being anti-corporate or anti-government? ) Gee if I didn't know better that sounds like a conspiracy idealism... Well well... So if you cannot trust them... why do you think "all" the studies are ethical and factual? Lying is a main part of not trusting someone or some entity...
murronius 1 month ago
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murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Heres the truth BUDDY... Vaccines should be total choice... Not forced or even implied force... They should not be funded by the government... People should have to pay for them... (takes out the corrupt aspect of government) therefore if people didn't choose them and get a serious illness they have only themselves to blame... while the people who chose to get them have all the protection of this wonder medicine... then eventually we can see who is healthier.
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "therefore if people didn't choose them and get a serious illness they have only themselves to blam" The problem with that though is that it would put at risk those who CAN'T get vaccinated, as well as the small percentage for whom the vaccine wasn't effective.
"...population subduction and control" Conspiracy mongering nonsense.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Elephant in the room... the pharmas have everything to gain to sell vaccines (billions of profit in private coffers) and everything to lose if the MMR vaccine cause autism... which in and of itself proves nothing... but it does show Motive... Yet the mothers who watched their completely normal children get vaccinated , then have a severe fever, after which they are declared autistic... have only ridicule to gain... Or doctors who speak out lose their licence... Motive... who has it
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "the pharmas have everything to gain to sell vaccines" One pharma company makes more selling a handfull of drugs than the entire vaccine industry combined. If your claims about them were true, they would instead use the money spent on vaccines on R&D for drugs for more cosmetic problems like Viagra (those are the big money-makers), plus they would make more selling the drugs to treat the symptoms of the diseases we are currently being protected against than they do on vaccines.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight LOLOL measles is not a serious disease buddy period... Those stats you presented are complete horseshit fear mongering...So its better to have retards than a few complications anyways... lololol... The pharmas make shit loads of guaranteed money from Vaccines... Seriously I was joking before about you being up to date on your vaccines but I am starting to think maybe there is truth to it...I also clearly did bring up the tuskagee syphillis study for the third time just now..
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "LOLOL measles is not a serious disease buddy period... "
Measles contracted during pregnancy causes severe feotal problems,, generally blindness
Not serious huh
podoau 1 month ago
@murronius "measles is not a serious disease buddy period"
About 30% of measles cases develop one or more complications, including
•Pneumonia, which is the complication that is most often the cause of death in young children.
•Ear infections occur in about 1 in 10 measles cases and permanent loss of hearing can result. It is the leading cause of blindness among African children.
Measles kills almost 1 million children in the world each year.
Not serious huh
podoau 1 month ago
@murronius "Those stats you presented are complete horseshit fear mongering" Not true, and if you had done any actual research instead of relying solely upon personal anecdotes, you would know about it.
If you had any actual facts to support your claims, that might be more convincing, but you've continually shown that have nothing but reliance on anecdotes, opinion, and an ignorance/denial of the facts. I agree that blind trust is bad, but blind mistrust like yours is just as bad.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Right, nice that you keep going on about the worlds "health organizations" which are owned by the pharmaceuticals who you say do not profit but in fact do profit billions from vaccines... Vaccines do cause harm so they do not pass the hypocratic oath... Sides affects are a known fact... People actually do and have died from taking vaccines... So do no harm first is out the window with vaccines. Statistics mean nothing as they can lie about them... So keep flapping... means nothing
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "Sides affects are a known fact" By that faulty logic, EVERY medical treatment doesn't pass the Hippocratic oath because they ALL have side-effects, even something as commonplace as aspirin. Once again, you're exaggerating the likelihood of the vaccine's side effects while ignoring and straight-up denying the much more likely complications caused by the diseases they protect against.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Again you simply ignored the 1970's flu vaccine and the fact that they do not vaccinate for small pox due to the side affects... Polio has a track record of atrocity as well.. people getting polio from the vaccine and people being crippled from the vaccine...or the whooping cough vaccine.. another piece of garbage.. These are all FACTS... Until you take profit out of medicine it is likely that people will remain skeptical of the integrity of the vaccines.
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "they do not vaccinate for small pox due to the side affects" No, they don't vaccinate against smallpox anymore because its been wiped out in the wild (thanks mostly to vaccines); it would be like vaccinating against the black plague
"people being crippled from the vaccine" Again, the odds of that happening are hundreds and even thousands of times less likely than complications from polio itself. You're more likely to be struck by lightning than to have such side effects
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Sure Arcana you know best except you offer absolutely nothing to back up anything you say.. But if I say it its automatically wrong and everyone that says so is automatically in conflict and their science is junk..Sounds like hypocrisy.. and you do not address any key points such as profitability=corruption...You avoid it because its the elephant in the room.. Nor can you address any of the points about how vaccines have failed... and they are by the way all verified...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "But if I say it its automatically wrong" Stop with the strawman exaggerations already; its not automatically wrong because you say it, you just happen to say many wrong things. I've also provided reasons why its junk science, its not just because I say so.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
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@ArcanaKnight "Stop with the strawman exaggerations already; its not automatically wrong because you say it, you just happen to say many wrong things" hmm nope again... everything on here is entirely opinion... therefore it is exactly like I said... which is the whole problem with the vaccines debate to begin with... There really is no "honest" debate... the people who you claim do false studies are the ones suggesting outside independent people to conduct tests to prove safety and efficacy
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight You sound ravenous the way you defend Vaccines yet you have not cited one link or addressed even one key point... You cannot explain the failures in the past of vaccines... You just sit there trying to discredit what I have brought to the table... It is obvious you have some vested interest in Vaccines... It is a fact that vaccines have failed in the past... So tell me there arcana what makes the vaccine industry honest? You still haven't answered that one simple question..
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "yet you have not cited one link or addressed even one key point" I've addressed several, you've just dismissed them out of hand for little or no reason. I've also provided links to support my claims (and offered to supply even more if you had wanted), and there are even more that can be found on my page.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight "I've also provided links to support my claims (and offered to supply even more if you had wanted), and there are even more that can be found on my page." I can do the same... Just that for every study I can find one that contradicts it... Like I said same old same old... So I guess until someone independent and agreed to be independent does those studies and they are truly honest... well I guess the debate will rage on..
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "I guess until someone... does those studies and they are truly honest" Oh please, unless their results confirmed your preconceived beliefs about vaccines, anti-vaxers like you would just say that they were corrupt, lying, wrong, etc. There is a reason why as the quality of the study goes up, the measurement of any link goes down.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
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@ArcanaKnight There is a reason why as the quality of the study goes up, the measurement of any link goes down. All just propaganda from the pro-Vaccine lobbyists ... No facts just spins... It goes both ways... And like I said the argument is over... It is a matter of choice... I do not trust the people who you are representing... period.. they have shown the corruption they are capable of therefore they are responsible for people not believing them or taking their medicine even if it works
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight If you want the truth... The truth is like this... Arcana... If the pro-vaccine lobby is so honest then they should not be for profit... Nor should any medicine... You also claim that anecdotal evidence is not evidence yet the FDA banned herbal Ehpedra on all anecdotal evidence... Due to the same people who you support lobbying against it... I know for a fact the pharmas are corrupt through and through... FACT.. read the book the medical mafia... be enlightened. watch sicko.. learn
murronius 1 month ago
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@murronius " If the pro-vaccine lobby is so honest then they should not be for profit" By that logic, the same could be said of ANY industry. Besides, you need to be more realistic; pretty much the only way your fantasy would ever become reality is if money itself was abolished.
"You cannot trust any government or any private pharmas" As I've said repeatedly, blind mistrust like that is just as bad as blind trust.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight The world is completely fucked right now because of everything for profit.. It teaches greed.. You cannot trust any government or any private pharmas.. Hell you can barely trust your neighbour... Yet your ok with them injecting you with some shit you have no idea what is really in it... Your pretty sure their is no conspiracy... But you can't be 100% sure... so in fact your gambling. Forced vaccination equals Tyranny... If I have a choice I would rather die than live under tyranny.
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight The rest of the argument is just a waste of time... Since really you cannot prove shit nor can I... Since we both seem to think each others sources are full of shit... Yours due to ridiculous profits mine for well I guess you figure some sort of insanity.. lol Ok I know where my money is... if it was god's truth... Common sense would dictate that the one who has the most to lose would be the least honest... That would be the pharmas. You see anyone can argue black is white.
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Polios complications were known to be greatly exaggerated ... Remember there arcana I know someone who had it... and guess what they were vaccinated... So really I think your just a person who has been indoctrinated... You want so badly to believe that you can trust your government and the pharmas and the health organizations... You can't handle your bubble being burst... You see I do not think all vaccines are evil... I am just extremely aware... You are not... end of argument
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "Remember there arcana I know someone who had it" You knowing someone who had polio and didn't suffer any lasting complications doesn't mean that such complications were exaggerated or nonexistent, anymore than I not knowing anyone who has died from the flu would mean that nobody dies from it.
"You see I do not think all vaccines are evil" You keep claiming that, so exactly which vaccines do you not think are "evil"?
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight "You see I do not think all vaccines are evil" You keep claiming that, so exactly which vaccines do you not think are "evil"? Thats a good question ... finally... the MMR vaccine fell into disrepute... regardless of your or my studies... (or sides we take)... There is over whelming anecdotal evidence that the vaccine is responsible... It simple does more harm than good... Not too mention that the measles one has been shown to not work in more than one instance..
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "There is over whelming anecdotal evidence that the vaccine is responsible" Considering that millions choosing not to get the MMR shot had no effect on the autism rate, I'd say that's BS.
"the measles one has been shown to not work" Only anti-vaxers claim that vaccines are supposed to be 100% effective all the time. The MMR shot has about a 99% effectiveness rate.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight "knowing someone who had polio and didn't suffer any lasting complications doesn't mean that such complications were exaggerated or nonexistent, " Actually they did have lasting complications... Just that they are very minor compared to the fear mongering iron lung videos reminiscent of the reefer madness videos that the government put out in the 30's 40's and 50's Not too mention the failure of the vaccine in a ridiculous amount of people... or the vaccine crippling many people...
murronius 1 month ago
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@murronius " the fact that they do not vaccinate for small pox due to the side affects"
They dont vaccinate for smallpox because its been erradicated,,, due to the vaccine
" Polio has a track record of atrocity as well.. people getting polio from the vaccine and people being crippled from the vaccine"
I had the polio vaccine when I was a kid. Every kid in the school duid. No one then got polio.
podoau 1 month ago
@murronius "or the whooping cough vaccine.. another piece of garbage"
Really ?? Whooping cough was unknown in my country for 3 generations. Now, some nutcase parents are deciding they dont want there little Johhny given those nasty drugs,, and suddenly whooping cough is turning up in schools all over the place.
These parents should be sued for child abuse.
podoau 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight Do you want me to list the actual "factual vaccine atrocities such as the 1970's flu vaccine, Or the reason they stopped giving the small pox vaccine and anyone who was connected with the people who made the small pox vaccine were not vaccinated with it since it was known to be dangerous) the statistics you recite about autism not dropping in spite of the vaccine rates dropping is unreliable since the people who put out those stats have financial investment its conflict of interest
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "Statistics mean nothing" That's just ad-hoc hand-waving to try denying disconfirming evidence. You're also ignoring the fact that the statistics you yourself have cited about autism are collected by the very same people you claim are unreliably corrupt; you can't claim that the statistics are suddenly unreliable just because they contradict your beliefs about vaccines.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight The ad-hoc hand-waving you refer to is basically the same as your doing since neither of us can prove jack-shit on this stupid forum... its far too limiting here.. So arguing about this is a waste of my time and your time... In fact it has turned into a pissing contest...Of which I will not be convinced regardless.. Nor will you apparently... So to avoid insanity... Let's just say we agree to disagree. Vaccines are good for you... For me I will decide...
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "The ad-hoc hand-waving you refer to is basically the same as your doing" No, unlike you, I'm actually providing verifiable facts to support my claims. I could even provide you with the links if you would prefer.
"Of which I will not be convinced regardless" That's abundantly clear, but then my intent isn't to convince people like you who will continue to spout these claims regardless of what the evidence says.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight But really Arcana... what are you so worried about anyways? Do you really think a few poor mothers and a couple stray doctors can stop the mainstream media? The vaccination industry is expected to grow dramatically over the next few years.. from 24 billion in 2009 to 52 billion in 2016... So I am not sure what you are worried about... It's actually funny that your so concerned about vaccines.. it shows that the indoctrination works... people are brainwashed... interesting to watch
murronius 1 month ago
@murronius "Do you really think a few poor mothers and a couple stray doctors can stop the mainstream media?" Why would they have to stop the mainstream media? The media is notoriously bad at reporting science stories.
"So I am not sure what you are worried about" How about what has already happened in places like the UK, or in the US now and in the past: anti-vaxers spreading fear about vaccines, scaring people into not vaccinating and allowing the diseases to run rampant.
ArcanaKnight 1 month ago
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@ArcanaKnight “The global vaccines industry was valued at $24 billion in 2009 and is expected to reach $52 billion in 2016 at a Compounded Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 11.5%. The vaccines market, which was once considered a low-profit segment of the top players’ portfolios, showed a turnaround after the resounding success of Prevnar, the first blockbuster vaccine.
murronius 1 month ago
@ArcanaKnight This however, also shows that in fact it is just another "darling" industry...a big money maker... Which of course leads to all kinds of dishonesty and corruption... Which just means they can afford to make everyone believe that they are the only ones who know the truth... just like you believe... that no one else's studies are valid.. It's sad actually... Just like the financial scandal of 2007... same shit different pile... lies and deceit for profit..
murronius 1 month ago