Learn the basics in the language first? Really?

[amarlopstar]

ESTE SEÑOR LO ADMIRO DEBE SABER LO PRACTICO LO NECESARIO UY QUE VACANO 11 IDIOMAS SABE ARTO

[Iceland1944]

Steve, I can see that you have a problem with how languages are taught in schools. I can also agree with a lot of what you say. The linear approach can limit people in what they learn. I always advise people to go further on their own. The school where I work is definitely not a place where the majority is interested in doing more than is required, though. They are very lazy and apathetic. I have used videos of Moses and some of your videos to encourage them. Nothing works.

[lingosteve]

@Iceland1944 I do not have the experience that you have,but I look at the assignments that my grandchildren get and am not impressed. Right now our teachers are on a work to rule scheme, with no report cards, no Christmas concert, no parent teacher meetings, and they all wear black arm bands to school. What do I think of these work-to-rule, black arm band teachers? Not much. I would fire the lot of them if I could.

[Iceland1944]

@lingosteve In our school system, the "middle school" doesn't prepare the kids for hard work. Most of the kids are lazy and have no work ethic. Add to that the fact that I am a demanding teacher, and you can see the kind of chaos I have to put up with. I think your philosophy of teaching would work with motivated students who have some degree of education. As for the black armbands and no report cards: RUBBISH, more rubbish from people who don't understand education.

[TheSeductiveArts]

@Iceland1944, Why would kids have a work ethic when they don't work? Kids are lazy because they don't have real lives as adults do. Because of this fact, perhaps people should think that regimented teaching styles don't work for children that don't have regimented lifestyles. You are a demanding teacher because you are an adult that doesn't have the same regimented orientated life than the child you are teaching. Kids are only interested in things they find personally interesting.

[Iceland1944]

@TheSeductiveArts Well, I work in an environment where excuses are made for underachievers all the time, so I am really not interested in hearing more excuses here. Kids need to be taught that life is hard and that they need to start taking responsibility for their lives. In Germany they have to decide at around age 10 which career path they're going to take. If things don't change here, we're going to have a bunch of ignorant people running things, worse than now. It will get bad.

[KimCyunHi]

@Iceland1944 I think the problem with how languages are taught in schools is that you can't teach someone a language if they don't want to learn it. It's the same as with any other subject, if a person has no interest, they'll get enough of it to get by, and move on, probably forgetting it all.

[paisleyyama]

You would have been a perfect candidate for being a homeschooler or homeschooling parent b/c this is the way many homeschoolers approach education. Homeschooling frees the kids to learn & explore academics according to their own interests and pace while removing the pressure & strain that a classrm often creates. Of course some homeschooling parents try to create a classrm environment in the home & these are usually the homeschools that fail.

[ClanCSF]

Hey Steve,

I was wondering what your opinion on proficiency exams are? You're clearly fluent in the languages you speak but have you decided to take an exam like the JLPT or such? I've noticed a lot of people put emphasis on these and work towards learning languages for the purpose of the exams, and ignore other things. Just wondering if you could give your opinion on them. Thanks

[lingosteve]

@ClanCSF I have no interest in taking these language proficiency exams. I have seen lots of immigrants to Canada with high TOEFL scores who cannot speak English. I only care about what I understand and what I can say in a language.

[ibnalTaalib]

@lingosteve

i agree. These tests can't really test the depth of your learning of the language. The only way that can be proven is by you living your life through the language (speaking to people in it, reading in it, watching tv in that language, etc). That is the real way you can judge your proficiency.

That's why i tell people in my shool who are learning Arabic that there's a major difference between getting an A in the class, and actually learning the language

[Gsteezy171]

I've found that the most important thing is the overlapping you described. Getting input from multiple sources/seeing it used in different context. After so many different scenarios, whether it be watching something in the targe language, hearing it in a podcast, reading in a dialog, ect., it just starts to naturally stick without much effort. Please do Korean :D

[blackwaterboy2]

My latin teacher knows over twenty lauangues and he has learned the classroom way.

Is this a common thing?

Do you honestly believe this? it seems pretty extreme to me.

[lingosteve]

@blackwaterboy2 I obviously know nothing of your Latin teacher but I think a majority of learners learn best the way I described.

[blackwaterboy2]

@lingosteve Well of couse you probaly wouldent, but have you ener heard of anybody learning that many languages?

And these videos are very intresting, its realy cool how you can be know so much about all these things.

[jorgeeduardojauregui]

Dear Steve thanks ...the vidos are amazinmg

[littlemonyou]

Almost everytime I listen to your video, you make it easier for me to more relax in learning languages, which is what is needed for me always. It`s like deep inside of me there is a voice saying `but wouldn`t it be rather good or fast even, if you would not let yourself explore fully, tying yourself to the learnig the basics?` But sometimes I wonder if I am too impatient to just let myself explore the language. Because I often find myself getting annoyed if I encounter too many unknown words...

[lingosteve]

@littlemonyou One of the keys to language learning is not to get frustrated at what we forget, don't understand and are unable to say. We improve slowly and every so often we are aware that we have reached a new level.

[lucasburguer]

Amazing video.

[Imyirtshashem]

I think that this other style could be a great thing to do for a few weeks at the beginning on one's study, while doing a heap of listening.

Moses seems to do something similar and is fairly successful with it. He also speaks early.

Breaks a number of rules, he does.

[jjay75]

I think it's quite subjective when it comes to defining "basics" in language learning haha. In Estonian, which like Hungarian and Finnish has a reasonably complex case system and a need to pretty much learn 4 forms for each noun, I would have become lost fairly fast had I not become acquainted with its noun system. I would say it is important to be able to recognise most of these basic structures - but I agree that trying to memorise them is a waste of time.

[lingosteve]

@jjay75 In Russian I could not remember any of the explanations and in many cases could not understand them until I had sufficient exposure to the language.

[Imyirtshashem]

I will work on basics, but not in the way you're describing. No frequency lists, trying to memorise numbers or colours, etc.

Instead, I'll use basic materials such as dialogues from Assimil, TY, Colloquial, etc (added to LingQ). If available I'll combine this with Michel Thomas. I use that to get a good idea of the verbal system (it's strength, in my opinion).

That's my idea of what 'the basics' means. Trying to pin down an abstract set of pre-determined vocabulary and grammar rules is no good

[lingosteve]

@Imyirtshashem Of course we always work on the basics, sometimes in our reading and listening, and sometimes deliberately. The important thing, I think, is not to try to do it up front as a foundation for the language. I think most people find the effort to learn the basics up front difficult or impossible and very off putting.

[anjel5521]

Yes, PLEASE do one on Korean. :)

[BobtheMoneythedbr]

You make a great point, I think many many successful learners are less linear, basically interest in the language should override "the basics" ...filling in the blanks will be much more personally motivated this way. I remember when I first learned Indonesian I took a " What do I want to learn to say today?"approach. That was much more fun for me than a chapter by chapter method. You always do a great job of portraying the methodological(right word?) utility of language learning.

[jahurofi]

Well, I used to belived the same. However, after learning academic English for 5 years in my country and moving and living in London for 3 years to finish a degree in English language studies. I discovered to my amusement that I was totally incapable to deal with basic vocabulary and everyday real conversation. I was never interest by the called survival phrases and house vocabulary items then I got a job in a hotel as a concierge where I hardly knew what a checking or a hand towel was, then n

[lingosteve]

@jahurofi I do not believe that you lived in London for 3 years and were unable to deal with basic vocabulary. If your point is that there are always words or phrases in a language, even the most apparently basic ones, that we seem to be missing, then I agree. How many days on the job did it take you to learn the few terms you were missing? Not many I suspect.

[BrotherDown1]

Hey Steve,

Great video as usual!

What you're talking about here reminds me a lot of the writings and lectures of Sir Ken Robinson. Have you heard of him? If not, he is one of the main, modern day advocates for a paradigm shift in all learning toward an organic approach. He has many of his lectures on YouTube. I think you would find his talks very interesting.

[lingosteve]

@BrotherDown1 Indeed I have seen some of this videos at TED and elsewhere. I largely agree with him.

[Bonnenouvellesjonny]

Hey Steve, please do include Korean in your video series. Thanks.

[Neuroneos]

6:15 I definitely agree with that.

[erdal0]

Well, i have to learn the basics to pass my exams. so i'm forced to learn the grammar of spanish although i agree with you. currently learning the different tentions of verbs.

[ouhannahbanana]

At the moment, my strategy to learning Mandarin is to learn the top 100 most frequent characters so I can learn more vocabulary whilst reading and listening? What do you think about this approach?

[lingosteve]

@ouhannahbanana When it comes to characters that is the strategy. This is the exception. You have to learn the most common 100 and even 1000, Unavoidable. These are not concepts or structures but like the alphabet. But do a lot of reading to help them sink in.

[ouhannahbanana]

@lingosteve Thank you for your reply!

[qzchris]

In fact, even German which I studied before that in school, which was taught in a structured, grammatically-oriented fashion was still not learned that cleanly and efficiently. Much of what I learned was again reading through forums, attempting to express myself and then picking up things here and there. I get the impression language learning is a patchwork, all about filling in gaps or fitting the pieces of a puzzle, even when it feels like there aren't enough pieces to complete the picture.

[qzchris]

I learned French using LingQ, back when it was in Beta version. To say I learned it in an unstructured way would be an understatement. It was a mixture of forum-searching, dictionary work and stumbling in the dark. And that's how it's done!

[NaomiChambers]

Before I learned French in high school, I watched a lot of French movies without the subtitles. It helped me get the feel of the language much better.

[amanogawamakoto]

I always wanted to have more freedom in learning. Unfortunately, even at the university level, language is taught the "grammar" way.

[forgottenmemories21]

So true!!!! When will education systems catch on? I fear never :(

[pesahson]

I think I agree with you on that. I've noticed that I always remembered better when first I had a general view of the whole subject and then later started filling the gaps with details. I also prefer to read many sources on one subject. And I agree with you, it makes you think that you gathered knowledge almost efforstlessly, when in fact it was thanks to massive input. But I was never good at cramming anyway and in out of school life it would be hard to immitate, so it's better to take it easy.

[Sanyadr]

Nice said

[MelancholyInLove]

It's like building a pyramide, you start from the general to the specific. That's the way students are used to, I found it very useful, but of course after, while improving in what you have already learned you go back to check your basics when you can, and discover e.g. new grammar exceptions that you didn't know before. We never stop learning.

[lingosteve]

@MelancholyInLove That is the point. I do not find learning languages at all like building a pyramid.

[MelancholyInLove]

@lingosteve I like pyramides!:)

[davidmansaray]

Just thought I'd point out the typo 'lern' in the title.

[lingosteve]

@davidmansaray thanks!

[clarinini]

Totally agree with you there. I feel bad learning basic words and phrases, those are often the most irregular and I get into thinking: "If I even can't learn the most 'basic' stuff..."

[perrin4869]

I am actually facing this dilemma with learning mathematics and physics, and here, unlike languages, I tend to believe that the basics should be nailed down...

[NarcissusXXIII]

Steve this is not related to the content of this video, but I noticed your name in a local newspaper this morning as one of the people who are concerned about Sinopec's potential involvement in Canada's oil industry. I was just wondering what your opinion is on Canada's oilsands controversy, and if/where the government should refine and sell the oil.

[lingosteve]

@NarcissusXXIII Which newspaper? I spoke to a reporter on the phone but have no idea what he wrote. As to the oil sands, I believe that the environmentalist anti-oil sand hype is misdirected, the government should not refine or sell the oil, companies do. Government should have some overview of foreign investment to make sure it is in Canada's interest.

[lingosteve]

@NarcissusXXIII Which newspaper? I spoke to a reporter on the phone but have no idea what he wrote. As to the oil sands, I believe that the environmentalist anti oilsand hype is misdirected.The government should not refine or sell the oil, companies do. The Cdn Government should have some overview of foreign investment to make sure it is in Canada's interest.

[NarcissusXXIII]

@lingosteve Thank you for your comments, I also disagree with the anti-oilsand movement. The mention was in the Jan. 26th "Ottawa Citizen" page A12 in an article called "Questions Canadians should be asking about China".

[needmanshini]

I agree that you can ignore certain aspects of the basics, but should be ready to prepare for bumps in the road. For me hearing certain consanants in Korean was a little hard along with getting the intonation down (I still have a little difficulty), But writing was side stepped simply by learning the sounds of the Hangeul in sentences as a whole. I didn't study the Kanja either since I have a Japanese and Chinese foundation.

[AmericajinYumi]

I'm really enjoying your most recent videos quite a bit. Please keep it up!!! I'm totally inspired and encouraged.

[teatimeoclock]

I find that there is no easy or difficult way to learn a language. If you want to REALLY learn it, you will have to learn all the words sooner or later, and the "basics" with come to you, because you will hear it often.

[CorinWright]

Hey steve, we've spoken before :-P, But indeed, another fascinating video, and I agree there's too much emphasis placed on the "basics" certainly in school. And thinking about it the basics may not even be used on that a regular basis anyway. I find days of the week, months, number etc etc, keep returning to passages I go over anyway so over time they do gradually sink in without me having to sit down and try and learn then before I know anything else.

Corin :-)

[Iceland1944]

Steve, I realize that you always say that everyone should try what works best for him or her, so I know you're not saying your way is the best. I would just like to say that I disagree with some of the things you're saying. A linear approach is needed for the sake of order. It is necessary to work one's way up. If you have learned, for instance, the present tense of "to have", you can then go on to use it in the past tense when using it with a past participle. A foundation must be built.

[jacobrian5]

@Iceland1944 I see what you are saying with a foundation but I somewhat disagree. Obviously a foundation is required to start reading etc but it does not need to be very large or filled with many of the basics. If you start reading you will see the basics everywhere on a ton of pages. After you figure out what they are once, whenever they repeat themselves you will already know what is going on thus resulting in you acquiring the basics as they come to you.

[lingosteve]

@jacobrian5 I often have to go back again and again to learn the basics, despite trying to learn them at the beginning.

[lingosteve]

@Iceland1944 I have just not found this to be the case. Some of the basic structures are the most irregular and the most different from our own languages, and so they are the most difficult to learn. Only after a lot of exposure do they become natural. I think the linear approach of schools, with the teacher in control, and stopping the kids from going ahead, is flawed.